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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Whoops! RE: Marc Carlson-any thoughts on the
	purpose of....
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> >(the 3rd image from the bottom).  Any thoughts on what the little hooks at
>the end of the toe might be for?  Maybe to tie the shoe point in place?

The lower one of this pair shows that the "hook" is actually a sole piece 
wrapping up around the point of the toe.  It might be leather or it might 
be metal, but it would be to protect the wood part from wear.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:06:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:


> http://www.saragrace.net/images/Syblvontur/Sibyllevontibur4.jpg
> 

"Phantom" is worth any drive. I've seen it twice so far . . . might be the 
best movie I've ever seen . . . but I'm an ALW fan. But go!
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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Help-going to London
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Hello out there to the list.  I will be in London Jan. 18 -25.  If there is
anyone on the list that lives there or can recommend bookstores, fabric
stores and a good haberdasher (husband can't go- blackmailed me into getting
a Harris tweed jacket) I would be very appreciative.  I will go to the big
Harrod's sale. I am also looking for interesting little shops and will visit
Portobello Rd. on Sat the 22nd.  I have been following the thread about
shopping in London (I mostly lurk) but did not think I would need such
information so quickly.  Our housemate got a wildhair and wanted to use up
her huge cache of airline points so she got the plane tickets and the hotel.
I just have to buy the food and other incidentals. I think this would be
classified as "an offer I couldn't refuse".  My particular are of interest
is early Tudor.  Any help, advise or offers of guidance would be very
welcome.

Thanks, Anne  (who REALLY enjoyed Robin's lectures last year)


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [other] RE: [h-cost]Help-going to London
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At 11:59 02/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Hello out there to the list.  I will be in London Jan. 18 -25.  If there is
>anyone on the list that lives there or can recommend bookstores, fabric
>stores and a good haberdasher (husband can't go- blackmailed me into getting
>a Harris tweed jacket) I would be very appreciative.  I will go to the big
>Harrod's sale. I am also looking for interesting little shops and will visit
>Portobello Rd. on Sat the 22nd.  I have been following the thread about
>shopping in London (I mostly lurk) but did not think I would need such
>information so quickly.  Our housemate got a wildhair and wanted to use up
>her huge cache of airline points so she got the plane tickets and the hotel.
>I just have to buy the food and other incidentals. I think this would be
>classified as "an offer I couldn't refuse".  My particular are of interest
>is early Tudor.  Any help, advise or offers of guidance would be very
>welcome.


You shouldn't miss Berwick Street, just off Oxford Street to the south. 
Borovick's, The Cloth Shop, the Silk Society, Textile King, a linen and 
wool shop recently opened and others. One shop off to the east also fabric, 
one shop further north and off to the left haberdashery. Also MacCulloch 
and Wallis in Dering Street, almost exactly south of John Lewis, a big 
department store. Brick Lane for African and Indian Ethnic - not very 
Tudor. Rainbow Textiles in Southall High Street, rather a long way from the 
centre, but a source for costumers in England. Also I believe, Shepherd's 
Bush Market, also a distance from the centre, has been recommended but I 
don't know as I haven't been.

Huge selection of books at Franks. www.rdfranks.co.uk

Otherwise secondhand books in Charing Cross Road.

The Globe Theatre has an exhibition of costumes made for the plays - how 
when and where I am not sure.

Costume collections worth a visit - Museum of London and Victoria and 
Albert Museum, although the V and A has most of its historical costume 
collection in store currently - you can still visit the lace archives and 
fabric archives in the library - check when you get there - it's a long 
time since I was there.

Bear in mind, American prices for most things are two thirds cheaper than 
British. Also fabric prices are higher proportionally here than there - I 
was in a JoAnn's in the summer in the U.S. and wished I had a bigger 
balance on my credit card!!

Suzi, living in London!!


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From: Melody Watts <celticredhead2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where to buy shoe lasts in the US?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Where do you live? Cause where I live ( so. Calif.) our local little Vietnamese community has old country shoe makers that custom make lasts for your feet from scratch. You may want to see if your city/area has a "ethnic" community and check out the local shoemakers.

michael tartaglio <mikes@dandy.net> wrote:Hi. I will try and contact Master Luke Knowlton and see if he remembers 
where he came by the ones he has (unless you are out there lurking, good 
Sir). I vaguely remember him telling me that he came by them by a stroke 
of luck, but I'll ask nonetheless. Cheers, Mike T.


>Anyone ever try to buy shoe lasts in the US? The only place I can find so
>far is the ShoeSchool which makes buying them rather obscure.
>
>
> 
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where to buy shoe lasts in the US?
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>Where do you live? Cause where I live ( so. Calif.) our local little 
>Vietnamese community has old country shoe makers that custom make lasts 
>for your feet from scratch. You may want to see if your city/area has a 
>"ethnic" community and check out the local shoemakers.

You might also try your local Mexican community.  Some Mexican folk dancers 
even have custom made shoes ordered from Mexico, which look very much like 
early 20th century lace-up boots and which may have been made from the same 
older patterns.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
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             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
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Subject: [h-cost] another new movie: New World
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Just saw a preview for this. Didn't see enough of the costumes to 
comment, but it looked like it could be good.

---
"The New World" Movie Synopsis: "The New World" is an epic adventure set 
amid the encounter of European and Native American cultures during the 
founding of the Jamestown Settlement in 1607. Inspired by the legend of 
John Smith (Colin Farrell) and Pocahontas, acclaimed filmmaker Terrence 
Malick transforms this classic story into a sweeping exploration of 
love, loss and discovery, both a celebration and an elegy of the America 
that was…and the America that was yet to come. Against a historically 
accurate Virginia backdrop, Malick has set a dramatized tale of two 
strong-willed characters-a passionate and noble young native woman and 
an ambitious soldier of fortune-torn between the undeniable requirements 
of their civic duty and the inescapable demands of the human heart.

The film features an accomplished cast that includes Christopher 
Plummer, Christian Bale, August Schellenberg, Wes Studi, David Thewlis, 
Yorick van Wageningen and newcomer Q’orianka Kilcher as Pocahontas.
---



Dawn

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http://romanticmovies.about.com/library/weekly/blthenewworldpicsa.htm

Here's a site with some costume photos.....this was filmed close to where I live in Williamsburg. They built a fort about 1/3 the size of the original for the movie according to the local paper, sadly, they tore it down before allowing anyone to tour it :-(

Perry
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In a message dated 1/2/2005 9:55:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

> "The New World" Movie Synopsis: "The New World" is an epic adventure set 
> amid the encounter of European and Native American cultures during the 
> founding of the Jamestown Settlement in 1607. 

Not a new "theme" but interesting just about all the time. Remember "Black 
Robe"? Excellent! If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

I had this idea for film about Inca culture. [I know....everybody's got a 
screenplay in their head] I mean is there ONE? "Royal Hunt of the Sun" I guess. 
My fantasy screen play has no white people in it. I wanted it to be all Inca 
intrigue. The main character being a royal messenger running from one end of the 
empire to another with a really important message. Maybe somebody trying to 
stop him. You got to see the while country through this device.

Of course I know very little about Incas but I thought this idea could fly in 
the right hands. What an interesting costume project it would be.
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In a message dated 1/2/2005 11:22:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Morses3@aol.com writes:

> They built a fort about 1/3 the size of the original for the movie 
> according to the local paper, sadly, they tore it down before allowing anyone to tour 
> it :-(
> 
> 

On "Last of the Mohicans" the replica of the Fort was bigger than the 
original! And was being eaten by beetles before filming was completed.
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Happy holidays to the list and I have a question or
two.  My local indie fabric store that carries B Black
and Co woolens had its yearly inventory reduction sale
on New Year's Day and I scored some lovely gunmetal
blue wool crepe and some lovely green wool broadcloth.
 I have been looking at
         
http://content-dev.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/viewer.exe?CISOROOT=/costumehist&CISOPTR=162&CISORESTMP=/site-templates/item_viewer.html&CISOMODE=thumb
and was wondering what the decoration was on the lady
in the white dress on the far right.  I could see
buttons on the jacket but what about at the bottom of
the skirt?  The inside of the front turn back on the
overskirt look to be the same.  Was this possibly a
pre-made edging of some type?  Could I use wool crepe
for this timeframe?  I know crepe of some kind was
available to the Vikings but when would they have used
it for dresses in the 19th century?  I'd like a nice
Edwardian or Victorian winter dress out of the crepe
but would prefer to be as authentic as possible as it
is really nice wool.  If the buttons on this are
duplicatable or the trim could be duplicated even in a
white or cream lace I think I could have found my
winter project.  Thanks for any thoughts.
                                 Cassandra


		
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From: "Kate Pinner" <pinner@mccc.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <1c4.21de2534.2f0a6215@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] another new movie: New World
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:39:03 -0500
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Have you read "Aztec" by Gary Jennings? He does give some descriptions of 
costumes and you'd see a good bit of the country.
Kate
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>

> Not a new "theme" but interesting just about all the time. Remember "Black
> Robe"? Excellent! If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
>
> I had this idea for film about Inca culture. [I know....everybody's got a
> screenplay in their head] I mean is there ONE? "Royal Hunt of the Sun" I 
> guess.
> My fantasy screen play has no white people in it. I wanted it to be all 
> Inca
> intrigue. The main character being a royal messenger running from one end 
> of the
> empire to another with a really important message. Maybe somebody trying 
> to
> stop him. You got to see the while country through this device.
>
> Of course I know very little about Incas but I thought this idea could fly 
> in
> the right hands. What an interesting costume project it would be.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> 


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From: "Wicked Frau" <wickedfrau@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Where to buy shoe lasts in the US?
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:28:16 -0700
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I live in Phoenix, but go over to LA fairly regularly to go to the textile
district.  Where are these folks you speak of?

>-----Original Message-----
> >Where do you live? Cause where I live ( so. Calif.) our local little
Vietnamese
>community has old country shoe makers that custom make lasts for your feet
>from scratch. 

Thanks,
Sg

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1866 fashion plate dress decoration
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they look like buttons on the bottom of the skirt as well. They look 
like they're just covered buttons. I believe wool crepe is period, but 
i'm not positive. I can't find the book I was going to use to check it. 
I think i may have seen it in descriptions in fashion plates.

Gwen

Cascio Michael wrote:

>         
>http://content-dev.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/viewer.exe?CISOROOT=/costumehist&CISOPTR=162&CISORESTMP=/site-templates/item_viewer.html&CISOMODE=thumb
>and was wondering what the decoration was on the lady
>in the white dress on the far right.  I could see
>buttons on the jacket but what about at the bottom of
>the skirt?  The inside of the front turn back on the
>overskirt look to be the same.  Was this possibly a
>pre-made edging of some type?  Could I use wool crepe
>for this timeframe?  I know crepe of some kind was
>available to the Vikings but when would they have used
>it for dresses in the 19th century?  I'd like a nice
>Edwardian or Victorian winter dress out of the crepe
>but would prefer to be as authentic as possible as it
>is really nice wool.  If the buttons on this are
>duplicatable or the trim could be duplicated even in a
>white or cream lace I think I could have found my
>winter project.  Thanks for any thoughts.
>                                 Cassandra
>
>  
>


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Subject: [h-cost] List wierdness..
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Is it just me, or is the list sending out triplicate messages? Only in the
last two days, but I've been getting three identical copies of each message
(sender, subject, time-stamp, text) and haven't a clue why..
Can anybody help, correct, comment? Betsy

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In a message dated 1/3/2005 8:07:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rosenau5@yahoo.com writes:

> I could see
> buttons on the jacket but what about at the bottom of
> the skirt?  The inside of the front turn back on the
> overskirt look to be the same.  

It looks like they used tons of the same passemeterie applied all over the 
jacket overskirt and skirt with buttons trimming the bottom. This would not be 
unusual. Sometimes the buttons on the skirt are not really sturdy functional 
buttons like would be on the jacket but might be like made of covered cardboard. 
The turnbacks [or revers] are lined in the same fabric all over the ensemble.


Was this possibly a
> 
> pre-made edging of some type?  Could I use wool crepe
> for this timeframe? 
> 
> Not if you're imitating this dress, which is obviously watered silk. I'm not 
> sure wool crepe is a popular fabric at this time but, y'know....never say 
> never. Stiff fabrics, fabrics with body are in vogue then. If the crepe is 
> drapey and supple save it for the 1930s.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1866 fashion plate dress decoration
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<It looks like they used tons of the same passemeterie applied all over the
jacket overskirt and skirt with buttons trimming the bottom. This would not be
unusual. Sometimes the buttons on the skirt are not really sturdy functional
buttons like would be on the jacket but might be like made of covered 
cardboard.
The turnbacks [or revers] are lined in the same fabric all over the ensemble.>

I would agree with this.  The passemeterie is either in a figure 8 or 
series of circles pattern.  It looks like buttons would be placed in the 
centre of these circular patterns at the front of the jacket (I would bet 
the jacket would be closed with hooks, however).  A series of buttons run 
down the lower centre front of the skirt for decorative purposes.

Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My Polonaise corset
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I know I'm awfully late in answering this but...

> Fhirst I had reeds for boning in my corset but I've got some awfull
> bruses on my hips.
> I think the corset may be to schort for me.
> But the back looks to high. I just don't know where every thing really
> schould be.

Often, if you have bruises on your hips, the corset is too long, not too
short. I remember that I often think that you make your corsets and bodices
too long. But of course, that's just looking at pics, and I might be totally
wrong.

> I think metal isn't flexibale enough and reeds are tho thick.

It depends what kind of metal boning you use. There's spring steel, and
there's spiral steel. They're not the same at all. There's also different
kinds of spring steel, some are more rigid than others. And of course,
artificial whalebone (plastic) is usually more flexible than metal.

What kind of reeds were you using?
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1866 fashion plate dress decoration
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2 cents from a novice of this period. The dress looks to be of moire (sp?)
The red looks to be satin.
The edging could be lace. I do not think that there are buttons all along
the edge and the bottom edge of the jacket appears to be somewhat flat. Same
goes for the skirt and cuffs.
There may be buttons of the sort at the bodice opening and definitely four
buttons in the rectangular section on the skirt.

De
Still getting over being sick. :P





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Oh, well. I see that the costume folks had lots of fun and abuse with 
historical accuracy on this one. Black shirts? Never have seen one (not 
counting Blackadder, of course ;) ). Poor old (not young) Matoak 
(Pocahontas) wearing some poorly sewn together top looking like some 70s 
patchwork handbag. I didn't even get to see how badly they screwed up 
the shoes... and the visor on that one burgeonet looks like they stole 
it from a suit of that decorator armor that adorns theme restaurants 
(although the rest of the armor looks not too bad). Rickrack on Rolfe's 
doublet?  At least I know who made the muskets, so they look fine. I 
guess I'll have to go see this one and suffer through it . Cheers, Mike T.


>  
>
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> Stretching it, I know, but what did you all get?

Nothing costume-related either this year - the books I wanted are either too
expensive or too hard to get - meaning *I* know where to buy them, but it's
too complicated for *them* to buy them out there :-)

DVDs (Last Samurai, Charlie Brown Christmas, Monsters Inc., The Good the Bad
and the Ugly, and the extended version of Return of the King), CDs (Jorane,
Rama Sutra, people you wouldn't know about because they're from around
here), Cooking books (Ricardo (local chef) and a Japanese cooking book), one
of those nice cast iron enamelled Japanese teapots (I'm so in love with it I
kept taking it out of the box just to look at it), a sushi serving set
(plates, chopsticks, bowls and sauce bowls), homemade things to eat, a CD
with songs of local birds so I can learn to recognize them by sound (I've
been wanting one of those for a long long time),  some clothing and a pearl
necklace directly from China, and a starter calligraphy set. Phew! I didn't
realize it made such a long list!

But costume-related things I've learned to buy myself. It's the best way to
get exactly what I want :-)
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
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> I think my most favorite was the
> rolling magnet that my hubby gave me.  It is about a foot long and sits on
> wheels above the ground about an inch.  It rolls along my floor and picks
up
> all the pins I drop (hundreds!).

Wow! I should think of getting one of those. It's amazing how fast I go
through a box of pins - I figure they probably just get vacuumed up, because
I hardly ever seem to find any, let alone notice when I loose them! I just
know that I have to buy a new box every few years - and I don't even sew
that much.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
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I got a few gift cards to Fred Meyers from my family.  My favorite gift is the one I got from a gentleman who was in Lyon France when we started corresponding.  He brought back for me the "musee des tissus musee des Arts decoratifs".
He also took some awesome pictures some of the looms that were there.  
Of course, the book is in french, but I'm still elated!
Elena
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I got three costume-related presents:

A copy of "Chinese Silk," by Shelagh Vainker, which is a history of the 
production of silk in China;

A copy of "The Book of Kimono" by Norio Yamanaka, who founded one of the 
modern schools on how to wear kimono properly.  It's mostly a manual on how 
to do just that, with a bit of costume history.

and....

A digital camera, so I can download photos of my creations onto the web.

Now if I only had time to make some....  :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List wierdness..
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On Monday 03 January 2005 1:04 pm, Betsy Marshal wrote:
> Is it just me, or is the list sending out triplicate messages? Only in the
> last two days, but I've been getting three identical copies of each message
> (sender, subject, time-stamp, text) and haven't a clue why..
> Can anybody help, correct, comment? Betsy

I haven't seen the behavior (in fact, I've seen very few h-costume messages at 
all in the past few days.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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Dear Everyone,
 
I'm very interested in costume but haven't sewn many, so I'm a "lurker" on your list learning so much from all of you.
 
However, I just found out the the bobbin lace guild I belong to has been invited to demonstrate at Appomattox Court House in April for the 140th anniversary of Lee's surrender.  And all who want to participate will need an 1865 outfit.  Normally, we demonstrate at Thomas Jefferson's summer home, Poplar Forest, on the Fourth of July, so most of us have c.1810 costumes.  Only two members do Civil War re-enactment.
 
Can you suggest an easy "big three" pattern that would look fairly close to what a woman in Virginia might have worn in 1865 at the end of the war?  Several of us are larger women, so any advice in that area would be appreciated as well.  It is uncertain whether we would need costumes of this period after this one time, so some members are reluctant to go the whole route with 100% authentic.  But after the turmoil of war, I'm not sure what women might have been wearing...  Would they have still been wearing stays, for example?
 
Fabric suggestions would also be very welcome--should we try to fade or add "wear" to our costume?
 
As you can tell, I'm feeling overwhelmed with the possibilities!
 
Any way, thanks in advance for your help,
Frances in Virginia

		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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Civil War era isn't my period, but Simplicity has put out  several patterns 
done by Martha McCain that might be of help to you.  I've  heard only good 
things about this particular designer, and Simplicity even has  documentation for 
a couple of patterns (her men's patterns, I believe) on the  website!  If you 
go to _www.simplicity.com_ (http://www.simplicity.com) , to the Civil War  
costumes section for Adult costumes, you'll find them.  The women's  patterns on 
the website are 5442 (summer dress) 5724 (ballgown), 7212 (day  dresses), and 
9761 (day dress).  There are also undergarments patterns for  corsets, 
hoopskirts, and chemises, and drawers.  A catalog in JoAnns or  another fabric store 
will tell you which of these patterns are by Ms.  McCain.  Personally, if you 
don't need to be absolutely authentic and would  only use it once, I'd just 
buy the hoopskirt, as it's a lot less  time-consuming that way!
 
Hope this is helpful,
Christine
 
In a message dated 1/3/2005 11:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
heirloomsew@yahoo.com writes:

Can you  suggest an easy "big three" pattern that would look fairly close to 
what a  woman in Virginia might have worn in 1865 at the end of the war?  
Several  of us are larger women, so any advice in that area would be appreciated 
as  well.  It is uncertain whether we would need costumes of this period  after 
this one time, so some members are reluctant to go the whole route with  100% 
authentic.  But after the turmoil of war, I'm not sure what women  might have 
been wearing...  Would they have still been wearing stays, for  example?

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In a message dated 1/3/2005 11:51:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
IceGirlNIN@aol.com writes:

A  catalog in JoAnns or  another fabric store 
will tell you which of  these patterns are by Ms.  McCain.  Personally, if 
you 
don't  need to be absolutely authentic and would  only use it once, I'd just  
buy the hoopskirt, as it's a lot less  time-consuming that  way


Yes, these patterns are great.  I agree about the hoop--you might even  be 
able to find one cheap at a thrift store.  
 
Ann Wass
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation Q
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:15:06 -0500
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This is also my favorite way. I have a late 19th instruction that suggests
that you put the bottle in a stocking before doing the winding. This will
help to absorb the moisture as well as providing a light cushion for the
mounted lace.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation Q


> Hello.
> I would take each lace seperately to wash in soap flakes.
> You can use very hot water. Gentle wrap each lace round a glass bottle,
put
> a needle to secure it in the end, and stern the bottle in the soap water.
> Rinse water with many hot waters afterwards.
> Let each lace dry on the bottle, you get the lace nice and dont have to
iron
> it.
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 4:07 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation Q
>
>
> The good news is that one of my Christmas presents is
great-grandma-in-law's
> collection of lace and patterns, from 1909-1913. The BAD news is that
> they're spent nearly a century around a family full of smokers! One bit of
> the lace is badly deteriorated, from plain old age, but the rest is in
> almost perfect condition, apart from the awful stench. Other than that one
> small piece, it's not even discolored.
>
> What might you guys suggest for this kind of problem? The lace, as far as
I
> can tell, is all cotton. It's strong, but I'm definitely not willing to
risk
> bleach.
>
> Also, any ideas on how to preserve the patterns? I'm not going to sell
them,
> and they're several sizes to small for me to use, but I might like to
draft
> something in my size from them. I don't think they're enormously rare, or
> anything like that, so I may consider preserving them in a way that would
> reduce the value, from a historian's point of view. It would be kind of
fun
> to laminate them, and hang them on my sewing room wall as partial
wallpaper,
> for example.
>
> -E House
> (who smokes, but always smokes outside away from any open windows, wears a
> smoking jacket, and washes her hands and face afterwards so that no whiff
of
> smoke can possibly get near her sewing!)
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT Dutch web-bookstore
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:24:56 -0500
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Fran, couldn't you use the box for storage of things like fans, silk hose ,
gloves and mitts, beaded belts, and such.  I seem to be getting a nice
collection of boxes and baskets that I am filling with assessories for my
various costume period collections.

Kathleen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT Dutch web-bookstore


> http://www.bol.com/
> Try this one
>
> cw15147-lists@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Sorry for this completely off-topic post, but I'm
> >hoping to get help from the international members of
> >the list. I'm looking for well-recommended Dutch
> >bookstores selling on the web (that will ship
> >internationally), selling Dutch-language books (not
> >literary texts, just popular novels and the like).
> >Amazon.nl bumps you over to amazon.uk, and they don't
> >seem to have a very extensive inventory of
> >Dutch-language books (well, I'm actually looking for
> >audiobooks).
> >
> >Thanks! Oh, and Happy Holidays to ya'll!
> >
> >
> >
> >Claudine
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [other] Re: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation Q
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At 09:15 04/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>This is also my favorite way. I have a late 19th instruction that suggests
>that you put the bottle in a stocking before doing the winding. This will
>help to absorb the moisture as well as providing a light cushion for the
>mounted lace.


Don't forget that a stocking, in the 19th century, would have been silk, 
cotton, or wool, in all probability.

Suzi

> > I would take each lace seperately to wash in soap flakes.
> > You can use very hot water. Gentle wrap each lace round a glass bottle,
>put
> > a needle to secure it in the end, and stern the bottle in the soap water.
> > Rinse water with many hot waters afterwards.
> > Let each lace dry on the bottle, you get the lace nice and dont have to
>iron
> > it.
>
> > The good news is that one of my Christmas presents is
>great-grandma-in-law's
> > collection of lace and patterns, from 1909-1913. The BAD news is that
> > they're spent nearly a century around a family full of smokers! One bit of
> > the lace is badly deteriorated, from plain old age, but the rest is in
> > almost perfect condition, apart from the awful stench. Other than that one
> > small piece, it's not even discolored.
> >
> > What might you guys suggest for this kind of problem? The lace, as far as
>I
> > can tell, is all cotton. It's strong, but I'm definitely not willing to
>risk
> > bleach.
> >
> > Also, any ideas on how to preserve the patterns? I'm not going to sell
>them,
> > and they're several sizes to small for me to use, but I might like to
>draft
> > something in my size from them. I don't think they're enormously rare, or
> > anything like that, so I may consider preserving them in a way that would
> > reduce the value, from a historian's point of view. It would be kind of
>fun
> > to laminate them, and hang them on my sewing room wall as partial
>wallpaper,
> > for example.
> >
> > -E House
> > (who smokes, but always smokes outside away from any open windows, wears a
> > smoking jacket, and washes her hands and face afterwards so that no whiff
>of
> > smoke can possibly get near her sewing!)
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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	<BAY20-DAV2880B1FEA587C0A695745F6910@phx.gbl>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:20:18 -0500
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Concerning the magnet, where did your husband Find this intriguing item?
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts


> > I think my most favorite was the
> > rolling magnet that my hubby gave me.  It is about a foot long and sits
on
> > wheels above the ground about an inch.  It rolls along my floor and
picks
> up
> > all the pins I drop (hundreds!).
>
> Wow! I should think of getting one of those. It's amazing how fast I go
> through a box of pins - I figure they probably just get vacuumed up,
because
> I hardly ever seem to find any, let alone notice when I loose them! I just
> know that I have to buy a new box every few years - and I don't even sew
> that much.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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	<5.1.0.14.2.20050104144008.01496608@127.0.0.1>
Subject: Re: [other] Re: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation Q
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:25:53 -0500
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You are correct! I have singles of both cotton and silk that I bought to use
for doll hose. Since they are uncut, they can still be used for that
purpose...when I have the inclination to sew the stuff!
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [other] Re: [h-cost] nice problem to have: textile conservation
Q


> At 09:15 04/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >This is also my favorite way. I have a late 19th instruction that
suggests
> >that you put the bottle in a stocking before doing the winding. This will
> >help to absorb the moisture as well as providing a light cushion for the
> >mounted lace.
>
>
> Don't forget that a stocking, in the 19th century, would have been silk,
> cotton, or wool, in all probability.
>
> Suzi
>
> > > I would take each lace seperately to wash in soap flakes.
> > > You can use very hot water. Gentle wrap each lace round a glass
bottle,
> >put
> > > a needle to secure it in the end, and stern the bottle in the soap
water.
> > > Rinse water with many hot waters afterwards.
> > > Let each lace dry on the bottle, you get the lace nice and dont have
to
> >iron
> > > it.
> >
> > > The good news is that one of my Christmas presents is
> >great-grandma-in-law's
> > > collection of lace and patterns, from 1909-1913. The BAD news is that
> > > they're spent nearly a century around a family full of smokers! One
bit of
> > > the lace is badly deteriorated, from plain old age, but the rest is in
> > > almost perfect condition, apart from the awful stench. Other than that
one
> > > small piece, it's not even discolored.
> > >
> > > What might you guys suggest for this kind of problem? The lace, as far
as
> >I
> > > can tell, is all cotton. It's strong, but I'm definitely not willing
to
> >risk
> > > bleach.
> > >
> > > Also, any ideas on how to preserve the patterns? I'm not going to sell
> >them,
> > > and they're several sizes to small for me to use, but I might like to
> >draft
> > > something in my size from them. I don't think they're enormously rare,
or
> > > anything like that, so I may consider preserving them in a way that
would
> > > reduce the value, from a historian's point of view. It would be kind
of
> >fun
> > > to laminate them, and hang them on my sewing room wall as partial
> >wallpaper,
> > > for example.
> > >
> > > -E House
> > > (who smokes, but always smokes outside away from any open windows,
wears a
> > > smoking jacket, and washes her hands and face afterwards so that no
whiff
> >of
> > > smoke can possibly get near her sewing!)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 16:24:17 +0000
From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] Back from Christmas/New year
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Hello folks!  

I just got back from the Christmas-through-New-Year close-down here at
work (where my email access is).  I won't have time to read all the list
stuff that happened while I was away so I'm skipping it and startting in
with the here and now (hope I didn't miss anythign too important!)

I hope you all had a great time over Christmas and New Year

Teddy
(who had a fantastic time visitng friends and sewing dolls and dolls
clothes but ddin't get any costume related presents except a few very
loud "fat quarters" that will probably end up as dolls clothes)

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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:27:26 +0000
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> Teddy@mdx.ac.uk 04/01/2005 16:24:17 >>>

>I just got back from the Christmas-through-New-Year close-down here
at
>work (where my email access is). 

Me, too.  I went to Chichester for New Year - spent 2 days playing
Renaissance music (in costume) in a 17th century cottage at the Weald &
Downland Open-air Museum (complete with log fire and candlelight). We
had fun and the public were very appreciative.

I didn't get any costume-related presents, but have spent some of my
Christmas money on historical fiction and period cookery books.

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Subject: [h-cost] Discovered Great new Product!
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Status: RO

I was at a friends the other day and we had to clean her iron.  She uses
Faultless Hot Iron Cleaner.  It worked SO well, I could not believe it! 

The iron had been too hot when another friend tried to iron some synthetic
silk brocade and there was a big plasticy red smooge on the bottom.  It took
it off in a second!  

 

It is kinda hard to find (you can buy it on the net, but shipping is
expensive for such a small item), but well worth the search!   Ace Hardware
is supposed to sell it, but I called 3 in my area and so far none stock it!

 

Sg

 

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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:36:58 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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Status: RO

The gowns of this period are big and full of fabric but they are not that 
hard to make. There are no unusual skills required and some commercial patterns 
are very good. It's the underpinnings that are the bitch.
Make a corset and wear it. It is essential. Also, even with a commercial 
pattern, remember clothes then fitted more snugly than you may be used to. Fit the 
bodice close and tight.

If you don't want to make a hoop, you can get away with buying or renting one 
from a bridal shop. Get one with as many hoops as possible. Make a small butt 
pad and wear it under the hoop to push it to the back a bit. The hoop at this 
time has a slight train and is a difficult shape to get, but a regular hoop 
with a small pad under it is acceptable....especially for day wear.

Remember when walking in a hoop skirt to take small steps. The idea is not to 
get the hoops swinging. If you take long strides it will start to swing and 
at some point will be swinging back as you step forward and RRRRRRIP.....you 
just stepped on the front hem and tore it! Take small steps and glide 
elegantly.... like a boat on the water...across the lawn.

Have fun!
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: big 3 civil war 
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Status: RO


I agree with what everyone else has said. If you are going with a "Big 3"
pattern then definitely go with Simplicity. And if you are only going to
wear it once I wouldn't worry too much about complete authenticity as long
as it's in the right era -- I know, heresy! heresy! -- but of course you can
always look at photos and fashion plates from the era and customize. At
least one of the Simplicity patterns is in large sizes; maybe all of them.

I'm not an expert on this era, but as far as I know after the war the women
would be wearing the same things they wore before and during the war. They
didn't abandon their stays or petticoats because of hardship.

Gail Finke


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:36:58 EST, AlbertCat@aol.com <AlbertCat@aol.com> wrote:
> Remember when walking in a hoop skirt to take small steps. The idea is not to
> get the hoops swinging. If you take long strides it will start to swing and
> at some point will be swinging back as you step forward and RRRRRRIP.....you
> just stepped on the front hem and tore it! Take small steps and glide
> elegantly.... like a boat on the water...across the lawn.
-- 

I can recall when I had my debut (16 years ago or so) we were taught
to swing the hoops. Walk pigeon toed to make them sway like a bell.
(or is it belle?) The idea isn't too get them swinging like you are in
a typhoon but gently enough to catch the eye of the gentlemen.

============================
Soda Club Distibutor
http://snipurl.com/avkn
http://stores.ebay.com/Kristalori
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305
============================
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In a message dated 1/4/2005 12:41:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
wickedfrau@earthlink.net writes:

I was at  a friends the other day and we had to clean her iron.  She  uses
Faultless Hot Iron Cleaner.  It worked SO well, I could not  believe it! 

The iron had been too hot when another friend tried to  iron some synthetic
silk brocade and there was a big plasticy red smooge on  the bottom.  It took
it off in a second!   



Dritz makes one, too, and it works well.  It is available with notions  in 
sewing stores.
 
Ann Wass
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> I was at a friends the other day and we had to clean her iron.  She uses
> Faultless Hot Iron Cleaner.  It worked SO well, I could not believe it!
>
> The iron had been too hot when another friend tried to iron some synthetic
> silk brocade and there was a big plasticy red smooge on the bottom.  It
> took
> it off in a second!
>
>
>
> It is kinda hard to find (you can buy it on the net, but shipping is
> expensive for such a small item), but well worth the search!   Ace
> Hardware
> is supposed to sell it, but I called 3 in my area and so far none stock
> it!

Try your local Bed, Bath & Beyond.  In their cleaning/ironing section they
sell irons and the Faultless iron cleaner.  And yes, it works great!

Di

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net (Elena O'Tighearnaigh)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:14:48 +0000
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Hmm.  I wonder if that's why I find myself inexplictly gently swaying side to side.  I always thought it was because I developed a habit of rocking, to get my baby to sleep...

--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:36:58 EST, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: 
> > Remember when walking in a hoop skirt to take small steps. The idea is not to 
> > get the hoops swinging. If you take long strides it will start to swing and 
> > at some point will be swinging back as you step forward and RRRRRRIP.....you 
> > just stepped on the front hem and tore it! Take small steps and glide 
> > elegantly.... like a boat on the water...across the lawn. 
> -- 
> 
> I can recall when I had my debut (16 years ago or so) we were taught 
> to swing the hoops. Walk pigeon toed to make them sway like a bell. 
> (or is it belle?) The idea isn't too get them swinging like you are in 
> a typhoon but gently enough to catch the eye of the gentlemen. 
> 
> ============================ 
> Soda Club Distibutor 
> http://snipurl.com/avkn 
> http://stores.ebay.com/Kristalori 
> http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305 
> ============================ 
> _______________________________________________ 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Discovered Great new Product!
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:10:16 -0500
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I have also found it at my JoAnns and other sewing-fabric venues.  I usually
pick up three or more when I find it.  Great stuff indeed ! to have on hand.
Nothing like stitch witchery and its cousins to gum up an iron.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wicked Frau" <wickedfrau@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Discovered Great new Product!


I was at a friends the other day and we had to clean her iron.  She uses
Faultless Hot Iron Cleaner.  It worked SO well, I could not believe it!

The iron had been too hot when another friend tried to iron some synthetic
silk brocade and there was a big plasticy red smooge on the bottom.  It took
it off in a second!



It is kinda hard to find (you can buy it on the net, but shipping is
expensive for such a small item), but well worth the search!   Ace Hardware
is supposed to sell it, but I called 3 in my area and so far none stock it!



Sg



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Just home from Boston...
Two books I found in assorted stores:
Dress in Ireland by Mairead Dunlevey (1999). She presents the history of dress from BC to 1928.  Lots of nice pics and great notes from various sources.  I had not seen this before.

Costume in Detail by (alas, left the volume at my daughter's.)  I believe the publication date is 2000.  The authors use the format that Baumgarten does in her book of the' same' title.  Their study, however, is from the ethnic collections at the V&A. There are both line drawings of the costumes as well as colored photos.  A fascinating study of shape, ornamentation, and functionality.
Kathleen 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions


>
> I can recall when I had my debut (16 years ago or so) we were taught
> to swing the hoops. Walk pigeon toed to make them sway like a bell.
> (or is it belle?) The idea isn't too get them swinging like you are in
> a typhoon but gently enough to catch the eye of the gentlemen.
>
This is precisely what I LOVE about this time period. I love the feel of a 
gently swaying skirt when I walk. It's a big part of why I prefer late 
period SCA garb as well.

The wedding gown I orginally had chosen for my first wedding looked like an 
all white version of Scarlett O'Hara's barbecue dress. (I didn't get to wear 
it, because it was burnt to ashes in a warehouse fire before I ever got 
it--which should have been a warning to me--but that's a whole 'nother 
story. lol) The one I wound up wearing also had a hoop, but was completely 
different in style otherwise.

Dianne 


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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:15:02 -0500
From: Jacqueline Johnson <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:09:08 -0500, Dianne & Greg Stucki
<goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:
> This is precisely what I LOVE about this time period. I love the feel of a
> gently swaying skirt when I walk. It's a big part of why I prefer late
> period SCA garb as well.
> 
> The wedding gown I orginally had chosen for my first wedding looked like an
> all white version of Scarlett O'Hara's barbecue dress. (I didn't get to wear
> it, because it was burnt to ashes in a warehouse fire before I ever got
> it--which should have been a warning to me--but that's a whole 'nother
> story. lol) The one I wound up wearing also had a hoop, but was completely
> different in style otherwise.
> 
> Dianne
-- 
I like full skirts period. Hooped or not. And silk taffeta petticoats.
Yummers. Although I have to admit a sneaking love for bustles (great
camouflage) but my weakness is for artistic reform. Divine gowns.


============================
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
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>But costume-related things I've learned to buy myself. It's the best way to
>get exactly what I want :-)

After Xmas I figured it was time to spend my Xmas money and buy myself a 
little present.  So, foolishly, I went to Lacis.  All of my Xmas money (and 
many additional dollars) later I came away with my second Danish needlework 
book; _Haekling, Historie og teknik_ by Lis Paludan (ISBN 
87-418-7638-5).  It's 367 pages of crochet history, with 761 images of 
antique crocheted items and antique crochet illustrations.  There are even 
pages from antique crochet-sample albums.  In the back are instructions, in 
Danish, for several different antique crochet techniques, illustrated with 
antique examples.  The printing is sufficiently good that I can copy many 
of these items without having to learn Danish.  But, as an appendix, my 
copy has all the captions translated into English.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
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In a message dated 1/4/2005 3:09:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
goofy1@suscom.net writes:

> I love the feel of a 
> gently swaying skirt when I walk.

Well, there's a SWAY.....and there's a SWING. I'd avoid the swing.
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Subject: [h-cost] modern clothing,
	historical taste  (was: Civil War Pattern Suggestions)
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----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
>
> I like full skirts period. Hooped or not. And silk taffeta petticoats.
> Yummers. Although I have to admit a sneaking love for bustles (great
> camouflage) but my weakness is for artistic reform. Divine gowns.


I'm a sucker for the full skirts, as well, if there's no waist seam. I've 
recently decided that, by gum, there's no reason I shouldn't wear them as 
often as I want!  So along with the several pair of 1940s pants that are 
going to get finished one of these days, I've decided to make me some fun, 
swirly dresses based on my late 15thC short-sleeved self-supporting cotes. 
Every time I worked on one of those, I kept thinking how great it would look 
worn with a flowy open linen shirt.

Ok, so I guess I actually do have something resembling a New Year's sewing 
resolution: stop buying clothing that I don't particularly like (and that 
doesn't fit right, anyway) and start making stuff that I like, no matter who 
looks at me funny.  I used to do it as a teenager. Why did I ever quit?!

-E House

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,
	historical taste (was: Civil War Pattern Suggestions)
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:06:30 -0600, E House <formfunc@formfunction.org> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> I'm a sucker for the full skirts, as well, if there's no waist seam. I've
> recently decided that, by gum, there's no reason I shouldn't wear them as
> often as I want!  So along with the several pair of 1940s pants that are
> going to get finished one of these days, I've decided to make me some fun,
> swirly dresses based on my late 15thC short-sleeved self-supporting cotes.
> Every time I worked on one of those, I kept thinking how great it would look
> worn with a flowy open linen shirt.
-- 

I have a couple pairs of 40's era pants from the Folkwear patterns.
Very comfy. I also like the empire waisted tops and luckily fashion is
vearing in that direction.


============================
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http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305
============================
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] end of the year finds
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At 02:35 PM 1/4/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Just home from Boston...
>Two books I found in assorted stores:
>Dress in Ireland by Mairead Dunlevey (1999). She presents the history of 
>dress from BC to 1928.  Lots of nice pics and great notes from various 
>sources.  I had not seen this before.

I love that book. I have the original hardcover that I bought years ago, 
and every time I read it I learn something new. It's one of my prime 
resource for Irish costuming.

>Costume in Detail by (alas, left the volume at my daughter's.)  I believe 
>the publication date is 2000.  The authors use the format that Baumgarten 
>does in her book of the' same' title.  Their study, however, is from the 
>ethnic collections at the V&A. There are both line drawings of the 
>costumes as well as colored photos.  A fascinating study of shape, 
>ornamentation, and functionality.

Is that the "sister" book to _Fashion in Detail_ by Hart and North? If so, 
I have seen that at the stores and pondered getting it, although I am not 
as much into more "ethnic" garments as I once was.

>Kathleen

Thanks for sharing your finds, Kathleen.

Kimiko


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> Costume collections worth a visit - Museum of London and Victoria and
> Albert Museum, although the V and A has most of its historical costume
> collection in store currently - you can still visit the lace archives and
> fabric archives in the library - check when you get there - it's a long
> time since I was there.

Yes, the V & A is worth a visit, even with most of the costumes in storage.
The Textiles Studies Rooms are wonderful, and surprisingly accessible.  When
I was last there in 2002, I swooned over the gorgeous Renaissance velvets.

The V & A gift shop also has a fine collection of costume and textile books,
some of which are hard to find elsewhere -- though unfortunately quite
expensive, given the current dollar-to-pound exchange.

Have a marvelous trip!

Amy G.,
    who recently joined this list and is very impressed
    with how skilled and knowledgeable you all are!

Amy Butler Greenfield
osmanthus@cochineal.net
cochineal@comcast.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste  (was: Civil War
	Pattern Suggestions)
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You are so right!! I dressed in 1920/30s clothes as a teen (remember the
Pointer Sisters as the Andrews Sisters?). Why did I stop? It's taken me
until I turned 50 to wear red again, my best color, why??? I've been slowly
losing weight over the past few months. I'm going to start dropping my baggy
clothes and replacing them with clothes that fit and flatter - and that I
like. I think those Folkwear pants are in my future too!

Thanks for that shot in the arm!
LynnD


On 1/4/05 2:06 PM, "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org> wrote:

> 
> Ok, so I guess I actually do have something resembling a New Year's sewing
> resolution: stop buying clothing that I don't particularly like (and that
> doesn't fit right, anyway) and start making stuff that I like, no matter who
> looks at me funny.  I used to do it as a teenager. Why did I ever quit?!
> 
> -E House
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Your 50? Are you a Red Hatter? Then you get the red and purple.
Imagine red folkwear pants in satin with a purple satin blouse. And a
hat. You need a hat.


On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:24:56 -0800, Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org> wrote:
> You are so right!! I dressed in 1920/30s clothes as a teen (remember the
> Pointer Sisters as the Andrews Sisters?). Why did I stop? It's taken me
> until I turned 50 to wear red again, my best color, why??? I've been slowly
> losing weight over the past few months. I'm going to start dropping my baggy
> clothes and replacing them with clothes that fit and flatter - and that I
> like. I think those Folkwear pants are in my future too!
> 
> Thanks for that shot in the arm!
> LynnD
============================
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste (was: Civil War
	Pattern Suggestions)
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No. I wear hats, not red. I don't wear purple ever - stopped in high school
when the whole world went purple. Gave it up with unicorns. The red hatters
I've met one on one are lovely people. I'm not a joiner.

On 1/4/05 3:46 PM, "Jacqueline Johnson" <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com> wrote:

> Your 50? Are you a Red Hatter? Then you get the red and purple.
> Imagine red folkwear pants in satin with a purple satin blouse. And a
> hat. You need a hat.
> 
> 
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:24:56 -0800, Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org> wrote:
>> You are so right!! I dressed in 1920/30s clothes as a teen (remember the
>> Pointer Sisters as the Andrews Sisters?). Why did I stop? It's taken me
>> until I turned 50 to wear red again, my best color, why??? I've been slowly
>> losing weight over the past few months. I'm going to start dropping my baggy
>> clothes and replacing them with clothes that fit and flatter - and that I
>> like. I think those Folkwear pants are in my future too!
>> 
>> Thanks for that shot in the arm!
>> LynnD
> ============================
> Soda Club Distibutor
> http://snipurl.com/avkn
> http://stores.ebay.com/Kristalori
> http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305
> ============================
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume




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Hi, Teddy!
It's been pretty quiet on the list.  Mostly, I remember discussions 
about Holiday gifts received.  And some discussion about 19th c. 
costuming...
--sue, from frigid, single-digit Montana (farenheit, kids...well below 
freezing ;o), where she is currently engaged in spinning nice, warm wool 
yarn and contemplating what she wants to do for costuming in 2005....

Teddy wrote:
> Hello folks!  
> 
> I just got back from the Christmas-through-New-Year close-down here at
> work (where my email access is).  I won't have time to read all the list
> stuff that happened while I was away so I'm skipping it and startting in
> with the here and now (hope I didn't miss anythign too important!)
> 
> I hope you all had a great time over Christmas and New Year
> 
> Teddy
> (who had a fantastic time visitng friends and sewing dolls and dolls
> clothes but ddin't get any costume related presents except a few very
> loud "fat quarters" that will probably end up as dolls clothes)

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <1db.329ed28a.2f0be101@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:59:40 -0600
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Another place to find hoops are at a bridal shop. They will often sell you 
their older ones. I picked some up for $5-10. Worth it even if it is just 
for the wires. :-)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AnnBWass@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Civil War Pattern Suggestions


>
> In a message dated 1/3/2005 11:51:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> IceGirlNIN@aol.com writes:
>
> A  catalog in JoAnns or  another fabric store
> will tell you which of  these patterns are by Ms.  McCain.  Personally, if
> you
> don't  need to be absolutely authentic and would  only use it once, I'd 
> just
> buy the hoopskirt, as it's a lot less  time-consuming that  way
>
>
> Yes, these patterns are great.  I agree about the hoop--you might even  be
> able to find one cheap at a thrift store.
>
> Ann Wass
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War patterns- The most Authentic
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Greetings,

     After the recent discussions about Civil War Dresses, I think I'd like to try my hand at one. (Day Dress not ballgown) Can anyone reccommend a few authentic patterns to try some with some history and descriptions? Pretty Please?

                          Thanks Again, Angelique

		
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From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
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	<4.3.1.2.20050104113448.025c6950@mail.frys.com>
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I bought this entirely translated into English a few years ago, as 
_Crochet: History and Technique_, published by Interweave Press.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

>
> After Xmas I figured it was time to spend my Xmas money and buy myself 
> a little present.  So, foolishly, I went to Lacis.  All of my Xmas 
> money (and many additional dollars) later I came away with my second 
> Danish needlework book; _Haekling, Historie og teknik_ by Lis Paludan 
> (ISBN 87-418-7638-5). 

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Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:15:46 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste  (was: Civil
	War Pattern Suggestions)
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At 03:24 PM 1/4/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I've been slowly
>losing weight over the past few months.


Good for you LynnD! That is wonderful.

Kimiko


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
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>I bought this entirely translated into English a few years ago, as 
>_Crochet: History and Technique_, published by Interweave Press.
>
>>book; _Haekling, Historie og teknik_ by Lis Paludan (ISBN 87-418-7638-5).

Amazing stuff.  Enough to keep me busy all year.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Last year, at the after-Christmas sales, I saw a wonderful tree skirt reduced to a very cheap price.  It was gold and red, with panels of brocade and velvet and big tassels.  Unfortunately  Unfortunately, I had no use for a tree skirt.  I got it anyway, with the idea I could wear it a a little cape but I've been very hesitant about doing something so strange.  

However, when we went out to dinner on Christmas day I decided that this was the most glitzy occasion I was likely to go to, so I'd better wear it or face donating it to the Goodwill.  The teenage waitress just gushed, such a wonderful shawl, where did I get it, etc.  She was a little taken aback to learn it was "really" a tree skirt but stated her intention of hitting the stores the next day in search of a beautiful, marked-down 50 to 75% off, tree skirt.

Janet

Janet Davis
Castle Furnishings
www.medievalbookstore.com


  Ok, so I guess I actually do have something resembling a New Year's sewing 
  resolution: stop buying clothing that I don't particularly like (and that 
  doesn't fit right, anyway) and start making stuff that I like, no matter who 
  looks at me funny.  I used to do it as a teenager. Why did I ever quit?!

  -
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Subject: [h-cost] I was bad but it was good :) slightly OT
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I'm not suppose to buy material unless it is for a project I am working on
but I came across 9 yds of green raw silk fabric at $3 a yard. Couldn't find
the yellow satin I need to line a long vest. Working on a costume,
Simplicity 9045, retro which they no longer sell.
I purchased at one time the reddish batik with gold cracks and a purply and
reddish batik with gold cracks. I have only so much of each so I have
decided to line the vest with a yellow gold satin and add to the patchwork
panels Patchwork, because there is not enough of the cracked material to cut
all six pieces of the vest as wholes. So the side panel pieces will be the
cracked fabric and the front panel pieces and maybe the back will be
patchwork. Wal-Mart and Jo Ann's sold out of those two crack fabrics and
could not find the satin in the color I need, will check with hobby lobby
sometime, they may have the batik with cracks and/or the satin.

Enough rambling,
De


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Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:27:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Melody Watts <celticredhead2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Where to buy shoe lasts ? Thonk Garden Grove...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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City called Garden Grove, they have a "Little Siagon"
area there,Garden Grove is about 60 miles South of LA
or  
just a little bit south of Buena Park (think Knotts
Berry Farm)AAA could probably give you a heads up on
the area...For me it's South on Hwy 39 (Beach Blvd)

--- Wicked Frau <wickedfrau@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I live in Phoenix, but go over to LA fairly
> regularly to go to the textile
> district.  Where are these folks you speak of?
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> > >Where do you live? Cause where I live ( so.
> Calif.) our local little
> Vietnamese
> >community has old country shoe makers that custom
> make lasts for your feet
> >from scratch. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Sg
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:47:22 +1100
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War patterns- The most Authentic
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I really recommend http://www.pastpatterns.com/1850.html Their patterns 
are excellent!
Good luck, Aylwen Garden

http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/costume.htm


On Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 02:07 PM, ~Angelique wrote:

>
> Greetings,
>
>      After the recent discussions about Civil War Dresses, I think I'd 
> like to try my hand at one. (Day Dress not ballgown) Can anyone 
> reccommend a few authentic patterns to try some with some history and 
> descriptions? Pretty Please?
>
>                           Thanks Again, Angelique
>
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume-Related Holiday Gifts
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20050104113448.025c6950@mail.frys.com>
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Hi Carolyn.
If you want a translation, I would be happy to do that for you.
Tania
Denmark

Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com> wrote:

>But costume-related things I've learned to buy myself. It's the best way to
>get exactly what I want :-)

After Xmas I figured it was time to spend my Xmas money and buy myself a 
little present. So, foolishly, I went to Lacis. All of my Xmas money (and 
many additional dollars) later I came away with my second Danish needlework 
book; _Haekling, Historie og teknik_ by Lis Paludan (ISBN 
87-418-7638-5). It's 367 pages of crochet history, with 761 images of 
antique crocheted items and antique crochet illustrations. There are even 
pages from antique crochet-sample albums. In the back are instructions, in 
Danish, for several different antique crochet techniques, illustrated with 
antique examples. The printing is sufficiently good that I can copy many 
of these items without having to learn Danish. But, as an appendix, my 
copy has all the captions translated into English.

CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Jan  5 08:49:06 2005
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	<032a01c4f2a9$a603acb0$0400a8c0@compaqub>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,
	historical taste  (was: Civil War Pattern Suggestions)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:48:32 -0500
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I have been having the same thought about reverting to a style I prefer. I
arrived in Boston  with a seemingly mysterious suitcase "someone" had packed
for a 'city trip'.  The luggage contained a few of my favorites but nothing
especially went together.  Sigh.
Since I am now of an age that could make me a genuine "Red Hat Lady", I am
making a decision to dress as I like and not how others around me interpret
present fashion.  I have been building a collection of vaguely ethnic
clothing;  most of it comes from "MarketPlace". It is funky to be sure, but
comfortable. I do draw stares out in the marketplace, but as some of you are
still comfortable in jeans and tees, being in my salwa camesia or sangli
dresses is now my comfort zone. And I often get stopped with inquiries about
where I shop.  (Of course, for some, that might suggest that I am somekind
of a bag lady). But others are interested about the company.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste (was: Civil War Pattern
Suggestions)


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
> >
> > I like full skirts period. Hooped or not. And silk taffeta petticoats.
> > Yummers. Although I have to admit a sneaking love for bustles (great
> > camouflage) but my weakness is for artistic reform. Divine gowns.
>
>
> I'm a sucker for the full skirts, as well, if there's no waist seam. I've
> recently decided that, by gum, there's no reason I shouldn't wear them as
> often as I want!  So along with the several pair of 1940s pants that are
> going to get finished one of these days, I've decided to make me some fun,
> swirly dresses based on my late 15thC short-sleeved self-supporting cotes.
> Every time I worked on one of those, I kept thinking how great it would
look
> worn with a flowy open linen shirt.
>
> Ok, so I guess I actually do have something resembling a New Year's sewing
> resolution: stop buying clothing that I don't particularly like (and that
> doesn't fit right, anyway) and start making stuff that I like, no matter
who
> looks at me funny.  I used to do it as a teenager. Why did I ever quit?!
>
> -E House
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] end of the year finds
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I believe Hart and North are the authors.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] end of the year finds


> At 02:35 PM 1/4/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >Just home from Boston...
> >Two books I found in assorted stores:
> >Dress in Ireland by Mairead Dunlevey (1999). She presents the history of
> >dress from BC to 1928.  Lots of nice pics and great notes from various
> >sources.  I had not seen this before.
>
> I love that book. I have the original hardcover that I bought years ago,
> and every time I read it I learn something new. It's one of my prime
> resource for Irish costuming.
>
> >Costume in Detail by (alas, left the volume at my daughter's.)  I believe
> >the publication date is 2000.  The authors use the format that Baumgarten
> >does in her book of the' same' title.  Their study, however, is from the
> >ethnic collections at the V&A. There are both line drawings of the
> >costumes as well as colored photos.  A fascinating study of shape,
> >ornamentation, and functionality.
>
> Is that the "sister" book to _Fashion in Detail_ by Hart and North? If so,
> I have seen that at the stores and pondered getting it, although I am not
> as much into more "ethnic" garments as I once was.
>
> >Kathleen
>
> Thanks for sharing your finds, Kathleen.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <IDEHICPIJOEBPADHEOGPOEEJDIAA.otsisto@socket.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] I was bad but it was good :) slightly OT
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This sounds Delightful!  I guess that steeped as we are in Historic Costume,
finding design opportunity to bring a little life to our mundane fashion
world.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historic Costume" <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:54 PM
Subject: [h-cost] I was bad but it was good :) slightly OT


> I'm not suppose to buy material unless it is for a project I am working on
> but I came across 9 yds of green raw silk fabric at $3 a yard. Couldn't
find
> the yellow satin I need to line a long vest. Working on a costume,
> Simplicity 9045, retro which they no longer sell.
> I purchased at one time the reddish batik with gold cracks and a purply
and
> reddish batik with gold cracks. I have only so much of each so I have
> decided to line the vest with a yellow gold satin and add to the patchwork
> panels Patchwork, because there is not enough of the cracked material to
cut
> all six pieces of the vest as wholes. So the side panel pieces will be the
> cracked fabric and the front panel pieces and maybe the back will be
> patchwork. Wal-Mart and Jo Ann's sold out of those two crack fabrics and
> could not find the satin in the color I need, will check with hobby lobby
> sometime, they may have the batik with cracks and/or the satin.
>
> Enough rambling,
> De
>
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War patterns- The most Authentic
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In a message dated 1/5/2005 12:42:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
garden@earthlydelights.com.au writes:

> http://www.pastpatterns.com/1850.html 

Agreed!


And pattern 708....1840-1880s corset is my favorite corset! It's a beautiful 
shape. I of course can't leave anything as is so I lengthened it 1" and added 
a bone between each bone in the pattern. But it works as is too.
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Re the Civil War,,,,
 
It depends.  I know folks on this list have many, many different mindsets regarding costume/clothes/garb.
 
If you want authentic, go Past Patterns.  She has detailed notes, and easy to follow instructions.  
 
If you want a little more 21st cent costume-y,  ( and cheaper and a bit easier to find.  I got mine for $1 each) , Simple- city can give you a good taste and a decent mid-19 cent. profile.  
 
Don't forget to  look on the web.  A couple of the contributors to this list have web sites that are very informative.  To name only one, Elizabeth Stewart Clark http://elizabethstewartclarkandcompany.com/Main.htm  has free patterns and instructions for undergarments, in addition to notes and critiques on the simplicity patterns.  And she says things so nicely.  And is one of the folks who is available as an information (diamond) mine.
 
Mia in Charlotte, NC, 
whos resolution for this year is to be a bit less of a lurker and observer, and a bit more of a participant.  I will need help later on with my Brunswick gown.



		
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>If you want a little more 21st cent costume-y,  ( and cheaper and a bit 
>easier to find.  I got mine for $1 each) , Simple- city can give you a 
>good taste and a decent mid-19 cent. profile.

I find that the common pattern companies produce easy to follow patterns 
that can be tweaked toward more authentic construction and detail.  And you 
can't beat the price or availability.  I got one of these patterns, and 
added piping where the originals I looked at had it, and ended up with a 
pretty good result.  I avoided getting several other of these patterns 
because they would have required too much modification to make them look 
like the originals I looked at.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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The Martha McCain patterns for Simplicity are very carefully  researched.  
Also, you can pick them up at any fabric store, rather than  having to order by 
mail.  And there is the appeal of the 99 cent sale that  seems to happen very 
frequently.  I also think a factor for those who are  not extremely 
accomplished seamstresses is that, if they have worked with "Big  3" patterns before, 
the Simplicity patterns will be more familiar and perhaps  easier to follow.
 
Past Patterns and others are excellent, but, if you want to go right out  and 
buy your pattern and fabric and get sewing, it can be discouraging to have  
to wait for mail order.
 
Ann Wass
 
 
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>The Martha McCain patterns for Simplicity are very carefully researched.
>Also, you can pick them up at any fabric store, rather than having to 
>order by mail.  And there is the appeal of the 99 cent sale that seems to 
>happen very frequently.

I only buy patterns to save myself from having to generate them myself from 
scratch.  Decades ago when I started historical costuming, generating my 
own patterns was the usual case, and I got really tired of it.  So I 
appreciate cheap patterns where I don't have to do much tweaking to make 
them into just what I want.  This is especially important to me because I 
do science fiction costumes, including some pretty derivative stuff based 
on historical stuff.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Ann wrote:

> The Martha McCain patterns for Simplicity are very carefully  researched.
> Also, you can pick them up at any fabric store, rather than  having to 
> order by
> mail.  And there is the appeal of the 99 cent sale that  seems to happen 
> very
> frequently.

Simplicity patterns will be on sale for 99c each, limit of 10, from 14 to 17 
January.  Time to stock up again on whatever suits your fancy.
                 -Helen/Aidan 


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In a message dated 1/5/2005 2:50:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, kayta@frys.com 
writes:

> I only buy patterns to save myself from having to generate them myself from 
> 
> scratch.  

Ditto....

Why guess at a good shoulder slope when you can get one off a commercial 
pattern?

You have to fit the garment anyway so the pattern is just an intermediate 
step. Use what you can get.
I love fitting shells!
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In a message dated 1/5/2005 2:27:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
hpinto@mindspring.com writes:

Simplicity patterns will be on sale for 99c each, limit of 10, from 14  to 17 
January.  Time to stock up again on whatever suits your  fancy.



At Joann's?
 
Ann Wass
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
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> Simplicity patterns will be on sale for 99c each, limit of 10, from 14  to 
> 17
> January.  Time to stock up again on whatever suits your  fancy.
>
>
>
> At Joann's?

Oops, yes, at JoAnn's.
        -Helen/Aidan 


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:02:40 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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I had a bit of a dyeing accident before Christmas - I was trying to turn 
a very pale green pair of trousers into something of a deeper shade, 
more suitable for winter, but they came out absolutely screaming 
emerald!  I also discovered a bright red jersey that I had bought and 
then always found too bright to wear - so I wore them together, with a 
red velved scrunchie with bells on in my hair!  Cos I felt Christmassy, 
and why not?

Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly 
and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.

Jean


JAMES OGILVIE <bear_janet@msn.com> wrote
>Last year, at the after-Christmas sales, I saw a wonderful tree skirt 
>reduced to a very cheap price.  It was gold and red, with panels of 
>brocade and velvet and big tassels.  Unfortunately  Unfortunately, I 
>had no use for a tree skirt.  I got it anyway, with the idea I could 
>wear it a a little cape but I've been very hesitant about doing 
>something so strange.
>
>However, when we went out to dinner on Christmas day I decided that 
>this was the most glitzy occasion I was likely to go to, so I'd better 
>wear it or face donating it to the Goodwill.  The teenage waitress just 
>gushed, such a wonderful shawl, where did I get it, etc.  She was a 
>little taken aback to learn it was "really" a tree skirt but stated her 
>intention of hitting the stores the next day in search of a beautiful, 
>marked-down 50 to 75% off, tree skirt.
>
>Janet
>
>Janet Davis
>Castle Furnishings
>www.medievalbookstore.com
>
>
>  Ok, so I guess I actually do have something resembling a New Year's sewing
>  resolution: stop buying clothing that I don't particularly like (and that
>  doesn't fit right, anyway) and start making stuff that I like, no matter who
>  looks at me funny.  I used to do it as a teenager. Why did I ever quit?!
>
>  -
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: purplkat@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???

I thought I had the only one.

She is STILL waiting for me to out-grow my 'phase' of wearing jeans and turn to wearing a 'proper' knee length dress. (I am 37)
GAG!!!!

Katheryne


----- Original Message -----
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
> 
> Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.
> 
> Jean

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
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>>Simplicity patterns will be on sale for 99c each, limit of 10, from 14  to 17
>>January.  Time to stock up again on whatever suits your  fancy.
>>
>>At Joann's?
>
>Oops, yes, at JoAnn's.

Oh good.  I hate JoAnne's, and only buy things there if it costs them 
money, like expensive patterns for $.99 each.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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From: "Megan M." <megan@benchite.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] modern clothing,
	historical taste  (was: Civil War Pattern Suggestions)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:29:42 -0500
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Care to supply us with a link for this "Marketplace" where you shop for your
unique clothing?   Now I'm curious.
Thanks,
-Megan

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Lloyd Mitchell
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:49 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste (was: Civil War
Pattern Suggestions)

I have been having the same thought about reverting to a style I prefer. I
arrived in Boston  with a seemingly mysterious suitcase "someone" had packed
for a 'city trip'.  The luggage contained a few of my favorites but nothing
especially went together.  Sigh.
Since I am now of an age that could make me a genuine "Red Hat Lady", I am
making a decision to dress as I like and not how others around me interpret
present fashion.  I have been building a collection of vaguely ethnic
clothing;  most of it comes from "MarketPlace". It is funky to be sure, but
comfortable. I do draw stares out in the marketplace, but as some of you are
still comfortable in jeans and tees, being in my salwa camesia or sangli
dresses is now my comfort zone. And I often get stopped with inquiries about
where I shop.  (Of course, for some, that might suggest that I am somekind
of a bag lady). But others are interested about the company.




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Jan  5 22:55:16 2005
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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:54:11 -0500
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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In case the original poster doesn't get back to you: Marketplaceindia.org
sells hand-embroidered and block-printed clothes from India while supporting
economic development for disadvantaged women in India.

Or, to give you their own version: "MarketPlace: Handwork of India is a
not-for-profit organization, which supports economic development for
disadvantaged women in India.  MarketPlace eschews the charity-based aid
model, believing that it is better to give the artisans the opportunity to
build their own viable and sustainable businesses.  Through
MarketPlace-supported programs the artisans receive training and education
to help them set up and manage their own cooperatives.  They also benefit
from programs designed to encourage their personal growth as
self-sufficient, self-confident and self-respecting women who
are working to improve their lives, their families' futures, and their
communities. MarketPlace is proud to market in the U.S. the products made by
these women "

As for their stuff, well, if you love fabric and you love costume, you'll
find something to love there. I must say I find their Web site a little
annoying; request the paper catalog so you can look at the styles and
fabrics without having to know the names of each dress.

Enjoy!
Lauren

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Lauren Walker wrote:

> In case the original poster doesn't get back to you:
> Marketplaceindia.org sells hand-embroidered and block-printed clothes
> from India while supporting economic development for disadvantaged
> women in India.

The stuff is *wonderful*. One of the DISTAFF crowd at K'zoo dresses almost
exclusively in their clothes. Each year I look forward to seeing her new
ones.

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337): your
	approval required
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I just got this message from Amazon re:  My Order from them of Gale 
Owen-Crocker's updated "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (personal order 
information deleted).  

I suppose I shouldn't have expected any better from Amazon.  :-(

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337): your approval required
Date: Wednesday 05 January 2005 1:50 pm
From: order-update@amazon.com
[snip]

Hello from Amazon.com.

We wanted to let you know that there is a delay with item(s)
in the order you placed on November 25 2004 20:20 PST
(Order# [snip]).

We apologize for the inconvenience caused by this delay.

Please approve this delay so that we can continue processing your order.
(Note that if we haven't received your approval by February 04 2005,
the item will be cancelled.  We'll still try to obtain and ship the
item(s) before that date.)  To do so, visit the following Order Update
page in Your Account:

[snip]

If clicking the above link doesn't work, you can copy and paste the
link into your browser's address window, or retype it there.

You can also access this Order Update page by clicking the Your Account
button in the upper right corner of any page at Amazon.com.  Once there,
you can make changes to unshipped orders, cancel unshipped items, track
shipped packages, modify your account settings, and do much more.

Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address
that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Thanks for shopping at Amazon.com, and we hope to see you again.

Sincerely,

Customer Service Department
http://www.amazon.com

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 00:02:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337):
	your approval required
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Poor you. My local independent bookseller http://www.harvard.com (yes, they
are independent, the university is harvard.edu)  will special order it for
you -- I've had my copy for a week. Use the "Search" box in the upper right
corner of the home page, search on "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" or the
ISBN, and you can order it online from them and they'll UPS it to you
wherever you may be. The Web site is still listing it at $50 but they are
only actually charging MSRP, which was 40-something, I forget. You can also
negotiate with them at  weborders@harvard.com.


Support MY independent local bookseller if you can't support one of your
own! ;-)
Lauren


> From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> 
> I just got this message from Amazon re:  My Order from them of Gale
> Owen-Crocker's updated "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (personal order
> information deleted).
> 
> I suppose I shouldn't have expected any better from Amazon.  :-(

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Or you could order it from your SCA merchant who has it in stock (at least today - this weekend is 12th Night and they may all get sold.)  The suggested retail price is $50, which is what I charge.

Janet

Janet Davis
Castle Furnishings
www.medievalbookstore.com
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] A Favour Your Excellency
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Greetings Gentle Excellency,

       I hope you had a lovely yule and that Santa (in whatever guise :) 
was generous.
I have enjoyed greatly your contributions to the h-costume list and was 
wondering if you would mind bringing the Goubitz (sp?) shoe book to Twelfth 
Night, that i might peruse it and decide if I need a copy for my research 
on children. If you would be so kind I would truly grateful.

       Looking forward to seeing you this weekend,
       I remain, at your service,
       Melissa Kendal


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337): your
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 12:02 am, Lauren Walker wrote:
> Poor you. 

I actually did not post the email to complain.  I posted it to illustrate 
Amazon's service with regard to imported costume-related books.

> My local independent bookseller http://www.harvard.com (yes, they 
> are independent, the university is harvard.edu)  will special order it for
> you -- I've had my copy for a week. Use the "Search" box in the upper right
> corner of the home page, search on "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" or the
> ISBN, and you can order it online from them and they'll UPS it to you
> wherever you may be. The Web site is still listing it at $50 but they are
> only actually charging MSRP, which was 40-something, I forget. You can also
> negotiate with them at  weborders@harvard.com.

I know.  However, amazon.com is offering it for $31.50 plus shipping, which 
still beats the price at the other booksellers where I can find it, and I 
have a $10 gift certificate for Amazon to apply to boot.  :-)
>
>
> Support MY independent local bookseller if you can't support one of your
> own! ;-)

I have my own independent bookseller, from whom I bought "Woven Into the 
Earth" in December, which is what I usually do.  ;-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 1:17 am, JAMES OGILVIE wrote:
> Or you could order it from your SCA merchant who has it in stock (at least
> today - this weekend is 12th Night and they may all get sold.)  The
> suggested retail price is $50, which is what I charge.

See my reply to Lauren.  I'm fine, believe me.  I was just making a point 
about why I rarely buy from Amazon.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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My apologies all,

    That was supposed to be a private email. Just proves always double 
check before you hit the send button.

    Blushing,
    Melissa


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References: <200501051514.j05FDEhN048205@net.indra.com>
	<4.3.1.2.20050105102301.03314908@mail.frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:11:38 -0500
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Status: RO

The piping is one good addition.  The other major difference that I see is
the set of the shoulder line.  Modern patterns put it squarely on top of the
shoulder, while the cut of the period rides toward the back.  I sometimes
trim about 1 1/2" from the back and add it to the front shoulder which will
re set that line to a more proper set.  Of course, this will make a
difference to ease and posture in the finished garment.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War


>
> >If you want a little more 21st cent costume-y,  ( and cheaper and a bit
> >easier to find.  I got mine for $1 each) , Simple- city can give you a
> >good taste and a decent mid-19 cent. profile.
>
> I find that the common pattern companies produce easy to follow patterns
> that can be tweaked toward more authentic construction and detail.  And
you
> can't beat the price or availability.  I got one of these patterns, and
> added piping where the originals I looked at had it, and ended up with a
> pretty good result.  I avoided getting several other of these patterns
> because they would have required too much modification to make them look
> like the originals I looked at.
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>           www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
>             ((((   7 )))
>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
>            /----\   /---\))
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:22:12 -0500
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Status: RO

Thank you Lauren.  You said it better that I.  As these garments are not
exactly cheap, I salve my conscience with the social credo of the company.
Another fun use of my wardrobe has been to use all of the collection
(upwards of probably 25costumes) for Bibically set productions.  So far, the
shows have been "Amahl" and also "Noes Fludd".  They immediately set the
scenes in some other time and place.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lauren Walker" <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Marketplace


>
> In case the original poster doesn't get back to you: Marketplaceindia.org
> sells hand-embroidered and block-printed clothes from India while
supporting
> economic development for disadvantaged women in India.
>
> Or, to give you their own version: "MarketPlace: Handwork of India is a
> not-for-profit organization, which supports economic development for
> disadvantaged women in India.  MarketPlace eschews the charity-based aid
> model, believing that it is better to give the artisans the opportunity to
> build their own viable and sustainable businesses.  Through
> MarketPlace-supported programs the artisans receive training and education
> to help them set up and manage their own cooperatives.  They also benefit
> from programs designed to encourage their personal growth as
> self-sufficient, self-confident and self-respecting women who
> are working to improve their lives, their families' futures, and their
> communities. MarketPlace is proud to market in the U.S. the products made
by
> these women "
>
> As for their stuff, well, if you love fabric and you love costume, you'll
> find something to love there. I must say I find their Web site a little
> annoying; request the paper catalog so you can look at the styles and
> fabrics without having to know the names of each dress.
>
> Enjoy!
> Lauren
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:00:47 +0000
From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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> Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly 
> and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.

Jean, just becasue she thinks that doesnt mean you *have* to.  Let her
set her own standards and let you set your own - after all - would she
let you dictate what *she* should and shouldn't wear? 

The green and red outfit sounds scrummy.

If the green is too "loud" for ordinary wear for you, you could try to
"tone it down " by wearing it with black .... on the other hand, I'd
suggest wearing it with the red sweater when you visit your
mother....<evil-grin!>

Teddy


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:19:06 -0500
From: Christine Robb <cedar@interlog.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337): your
	approval required
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On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 08:08:23AM -0500, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
> I actually did not post the email to complain.  I posted it to illustrate 
> Amazon's service with regard to imported costume-related books.

It must be hit and miss, as my husband ordered it for me for Christmas
from Amazon, and we received it December 20th.


Christine
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In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rmitchell@washjeff.edu writes:

> Modern patterns put it squarely on top of the
> shoulder, while the cut of the period rides toward the back.  I sometimes
> trim about 1 1/2" from the back and add it to the front shoulder which will
> re set that line to a more proper set.

as well as making it dropped about 2". Some sleeve heads have no rise at all 
the sleeve is dropped so much.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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I'm definitely with Teddy on this one. You are a grown woman and capable of making your own descisions on what to wear. As long as it's not crawling with vermin or hideously inappropriate for the weather (shorts and a tank top when it's well below freezing or heavy winter coat in the middle of a hot summer day sort of thing), then your mother needs to face up to the fact that you can wear what you like and if your taste isn't her's, you still have every right to it. My mother hated the fact that I wear my hair long and we had several arguments about it thru the years but I would never cut or style my hair just to please her- I like it long, it's my hair, so I wear it long. End of discussion. If your mother doen't like how you look, maybe she doesn't need to see you? Perhaps you could simply chat over the phone? Let her decide which is more important- seeing you or trying to make you dress according to her standards. 



Karen
(in a mood to play psychological hard-ball, apparently!)


-- Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
 
> Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly 
> and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.

Jean, just becasue she thinks that doesnt mean you *have* to.  Let her
set her own standards and let you set your own - after all - would she
let you dictate what *she* should and shouldn't wear? 

The green and red outfit sounds scrummy.

If the green is too "loud" for ordinary wear for you, you could try to
"tone it down " by wearing it with black .... on the other hand, I'd
suggest wearing it with the red sweater when you visit your
mother....<evil-grin!>

Teddy


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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And of course - most 21st C patterns assume that the person wearing them is/are wearing 21st C undergarments.

I once tried on a dress made from 21st C pattern - over - my period undergarments...  LOL!!! nothing fit, nothing set right, and there was a lot of extra in the 'busom' area.

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War

> The other major difference that 
> I see is the set of the shoulder line.  Modern patterns put it squarely on 
> top of the shoulder, while the cut of the period rides toward the back.  I 
> sometimes trim about 1 1/2" from the back and add it to the front 
> shoulder which will re set that line to a more proper set.  Of course, this will make a difference to ease and posture in the finished garment.
> Kathleen

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [other] Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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At 15:00 06/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>
> > Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly
> > and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.


My mother used to complain about my cleavage and short skirts, in spite of 
the fact that I was a married woman, and my husband approved. Then she 
complained about my long skirts. You can't win with mothers. She could 
always make me feel I should get her approval, even when I was in my 50's!! 
Now I find myself  telling my son what he should do - he's 27!! Bad Mom!!

Suzi
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The retro clothes I have been buying are those little fur shoulder 
stoles from the 1960s.  Mostly mink and fox originals, though I have 
bought one modern rabbit "leopard" stole in that style.  Perfect for a 
small person and for a climate that's too warm for much fur. I've also 
bought three long, straight stoles, possibly from the 1970s? 

This is not retro, but there is a site called www.charitysalesonline.org 
based in Nepal that I think benefits Unicef (I found out earlier but 
forgot).  Their knitted cashmere turtleneck ponchos are very nice.  They 
knit them in white, and you have a choice of 140 colors.  I went for 
their two-poncho discount and got one in dark moss green and one in rust 
brown. Their sales rep is a very nice English-speaking guy who calls 
himself Theo (Anglicized name).

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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This indeed describes my machinations!
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War


> In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> rmitchell@washjeff.edu writes:
>
> > Modern patterns put it squarely on top of the
> > shoulder, while the cut of the period rides toward the back.  I
sometimes
> > trim about 1 1/2" from the back and add it to the front shoulder which
will
> > re set that line to a more proper set.
>
> as well as making it dropped about 2". Some sleeve heads have no rise at
all
> the sleeve is dropped so much.
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <87fdeb880e40.880e4087fdeb@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:29:05 -0500
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This is so true.  At Christmas time I had occasion to try to alter a late
18th gown to be shaped by a Ren. corset and the results were just awful!  Go
figure....
The gig was a last minute body replacement for a house tour; the body also
was sporting a D-cup. The body was pleased but I wasn't.  Alas, we went with
PlanB.  And of course, if she wanted to do 19th C, well forget it. Some feel
that a corset is a corset.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <purplkat@optonline.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War


> And of course - most 21st C patterns assume that the person wearing them
is/are wearing 21st C undergarments.
>
> I once tried on a dress made from 21st C pattern - over - my period
undergarments...  LOL!!! nothing fit, nothing set right, and there was a lot
of extra in the 'busom' area.
>
> Katheryne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Am Civil War
>
> > The other major difference that
> > I see is the set of the shoulder line.  Modern patterns put it squarely
on
> > top of the shoulder, while the cut of the period rides toward the back.
I
> > sometimes trim about 1 1/2" from the back and add it to the front
> > shoulder which will re set that line to a more proper set.  Of course,
this will make a difference to ease and posture in the finished garment.
> > Kathleen
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: "Cindy Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:52:04 -0600
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 Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what costume periods
get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc.  For instance, we don't see
much in patterns for the bustle era, especially between 1870-1876 or
1884-1887 where the bustle was especially prominent. It is not considered
beautiful in a time-frame where a comparatively flat rear end is considered
attractive. I personally think all the diet aids, exercise equipment, and
plastic surgery to acheive the presently aesthetically perfect abs and
rear-end equally as consumer-driven as any ad for the various bustle pads,
cages, and corsets of the 19th c bustle era.

Cindy Abel

BTW: I did purchase through Amazon.com both volumes for the mid-bustle
period: 1877-1882

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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:56:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Hi, Kathleen,
I didn't think you sounded like a "lloyd"! ;-) It's true that the
Marketplace clothes evoke some other time and place, one half-magical and
half-historic. How I've handled the expense is to convince my mother that
they are my favorite presents; since she now shops entirely by mail-order,
and shares my do-gooder tendencies, she's delighted to dispatch my birthday
with a Marketplace dress or kurta every year. And as the great thing about
unusual clothing is that, never being *in* fashion they never go *out*, I
just happily build my collection. I would like at some point to buy yard
goods from them, too, but just haven't managed it yet.
Lauren

> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>

> 
> Thank you Lauren.  You said it better that I.  As these garments are not
> exactly cheap, I salve my conscience with the social credo of the company.
> Another fun use of my wardrobe has been to use all of the collection
> (upwards of probably 25costumes) for Bibically set productions.  So far, the
> shows have been "Amahl" and also "Noes Fludd".  They immediately set the
> scenes in some other time and place.
> Kathleen

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Cindy Abel wrote:

> Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what costume periods
>get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc. 
>  
>
What periods _are_ people wanting patterns for these days?

>\I personally think all the diet aids, exercise equipment, and
>plastic surgery to acheive the presently aesthetically perfect abs and
>rear-end equally as consumer-driven as any ad for the various bustle pads,
>cages, and corsets of the 19th c bustle era.
>
>  
>

Of course.

BTW, if anyone is interested in anecdotal type evidence, 
my-brother-the-New-York-lawyer said (during Christmas vacation)  that 
the fashion models he knows get their molars pulled out to achieve those 
hollow cheeks.  He says he knows several who have done it and they are 
"regular" models (whatever that means) not supermodels.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337):
	your approval required
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> From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> 
> On Thursday 06 January 2005 12:02 am, Lauren Walker wrote:
>> Poor you. 
> 
> I actually did not post the email to complain.  I posted it to illustrate
> Amazon's service with regard to imported costume-related books.

No, but it IS unfortunate when you're waiting for a book to get a delay
notice. I think more things sound like sarcasm on e-mail than are intended;
I was just commiserating.

On the other hand, whenever a company that sucks is trying to establish a
monopoly and drive its competition out of business, I really try hard to
support alternatives and encourage other folks to support alternatives so
that the alternatives have a better shot at continuing to exist. I don't
want Amazon to be my only choice. If you usually buy from your local
independent bookseller, too, then good on you. Enjoy your Amazon gift
certificate. But when considering the general unreliability and frustrating
nature of Amazon it is worth considering also that it may be worth a couple
of bucks to get relaible, un-frustrating service, and maybe even worth a
couple of bucks to keep the reliable and un-frustrating service provider in
business. Historical costumers rely so heavily on small-niche vendors that I
feel an obligation, where I can, to spend my dollars with those vendors even
when they don't provide the very best deal. I can't always afford to -- but
I try. It's like paying a little extra to buy my Indian block print dresses
from Marketplace -- I love  Indian prints, and at least this way I know
they're not being made by child labor for starvation wages. It's always a
trade-off, but I try to be conscious of the decision each time I make it.

Besides, my local independent gives me a 20% discount on next purchase for
every $100 I spend, and there wasn't any shipping (so no wait and no charge)
and so I got Dress in Anglo Saxon England for $40, and had a great little
conversation with the clerk about other books he's gotten from Boydell.

Climbing off soapbox and back under rock now.
Lauren

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
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> BTW, if anyone is interested in anecdotal type evidence,
> my-brother-the-New-York-lawyer said (during Christmas vacation)  that
> the fashion models he knows get their molars pulled out to achieve those
> hollow cheeks.  He says he knows several who have done it and they are
> "regular" models (whatever that means) not supermodels.
> 
> Fran
> Lavolta Press


"Regular" simply means they tend to do magazine ads and bit parts on
commercials. They don't do fashion shows (unless it's for the schools
or trade shows) and you won't see them in places like Victoria's
secret.

-- 
============================
Soda Club Distibutor
http://snipurl.com/avkn
http://stores.ebay.com/Kristalori
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305
============================
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BE022091.94FD%lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:25:12 -0600
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There's a similar organization that Christians on the list might be 
interested in:
http://www.ChristianFreedom.org

They have the same philosophy as marketplaceindia.org, namely that it's 
better for people in need to have an opportunity to provide for their own 
families rather than becoming dependant on charity. As an added punch for 
me, some of these people aren't allowed to buy or sell at all within their 
own countries, so this truly is their only chance. Not much in the way of 
clothing, but some great accessories and home items, some of which can be 
converted to historical use--for example, handwoven scarves, handmade 
baskets, wooden plates, etcetc.

-E House 

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Oops! Forgot to forward to H-Costume! Bad Kate, no beads!

K.

> ______________________________________________ 
> 
> Hello, All!
> 
> As I perused the local newsrag this morning, there appeared a note
> about a huge gathering of historians in Seattle this weekend. For
> those who are able, this might be a thing to look into. I've pulled
> some specific seminar descriptions, dealing with things Medieval, but
> there are TONS of other subjects listed, scattered the length and
> breadth of human existence. Enjoy!
> 
> Vilda/Kate/StitchWitch
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ACHA2.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ASCH1.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05AHA42.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ASCH8.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05AHA60.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05AHA100.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ASCH21.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ASCH22.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ASCH27.cfm
> 
> http://www.historians.org/annual/2005/Program/05ACHA10.cfm
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Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
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At Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:52:04 -0600, "Cindy Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu> wrote:

>Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what costume periods 
>get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc.

Not to mention, which styles of which eras get "recycled and updated". 
Remember the "peasant" styles and "prairie" styles of the early-to-mid 
1970's? The revival of '50's music in the '70's, followed by a return of 
the flared, gored, "poodle" style of "crinoline" skirt ("crinoline" in this 
case being a gathered tulle petticoat) didn't in the early 1980's? The late 
1980's/early 1990's post-"Dress for Success" style of "Power Suits" with 
1940's-ish exaggerated shoulder pads and peplum jackets? (I'm sure the 
exaggerated shoulders of the costumes of _Dynasty_ characters "Krystle 
Carrington" and "Alexis Carrington Colby" didn't hurt!) And of course the 
"bell bottoms" and "flares" we wore in the 'sixties and 'seventies are now 
called "boot-cuts" ("boot-cut" to us meant tapered legs meant to be tucked 
into the tops of our Frye boots rather than worn over them), and 
"hip-huggers" are now called "low-rises"...

>For instance, we don't see much in patterns for the bustle era, especially 
>between 1870-1876 or 1884-1887 where the bustle was especially prominent. 
>It is not considered beautiful in a time-frame where a comparatively flat 
>rear end is considered attractive.

Hmm... yet there's Sir Mix-a-Lot's "Baby Got Back" and so many women 
looking to get "J. Lo" butts...

>I personally think all the diet aids, exercise equipment, and plastic 
>surgery to acheive the presently aesthetically perfect abs and rear-end 
>equally as consumer-driven as any ad for the various bustle pads, cages, 
>and corsets of the 19th c bustle era.

But of course! Has it ever been any different?



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
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Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>  > Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress 
>smartly and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.

Katheryne <purplkat@optonline.net> responded:
>You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???
>
>I thought I had the only one.
>
>She is STILL waiting for me to out-grow my 'phase' of wearing jeans 
>and turn to wearing a 'proper' knee length dress. (I am 37)
>GAG!!!!

Well, i'm 55 and my mother *still* thinks i dress the way i do just 
to annoy her. I haven't lived with my parents since i was 15, and 
moved far away when i was 18.

For example, i like to wear hats. My mother hates hats. Ergo, if i 
wear a hat it must just be to annoy her. Of course, i wear hats when 
i'm not around her. My entree into wearing hats had absolutely 
nothing to do with her. It came about from two experiences: (1) my 
boarding school required us to attend church, and back in the mid-60s 
women had to wear head coverings in church, so i had to get a few 
hats, and (2) i lived in the Chicago area, and on Sundays when blues 
clubs couldn't sell alcohol during the day, they opened so we 
suburban white kids could watch the great blues men (like Muddy 
Waters and Howling Wolf) play, so i got to see African-American women 
in their Sunday best wearing really *great* hats. Truly an 
inspiration. I've got hats from the 19-teens to the 1940s and some by 
new hat makers that are pretty strange, and i've picked up all the 
Vogue "Vintage" style hat patterns. Hats can be like little 
sculptures sitting on one's head.

Another example: a while back i went to visit for a couple days (they 
had moved to Southern California and i'm in NoCal) and i brought 
clothes that made me happy and that i was comfortable in and that i 
thought looked good. We were going out to a nice pizza place for 
dinner. My mother actually said she would not be seen in public with 
me if i wore the dress i had on (Folkwear Afghani Dress, in 13 
different light lavender cottons - definitely not a style or color 
she'd wear). I said i'd just stay behind and make my own dinner. My 
dad (now dead 7 years) kind of convinced her to allow me to go as i 
was. Nobody shunned us because of my odd clothing. Two days later i 
was out somewhere with my brother, wearing the same dress. A total 
and complete stranger came up to me and told me how much she liked my 
dress. (shrug)

A final example: I have butt length hair, and i now have grey at my 
temples. My mother keeps waiting for me to cut it off and dye it and 
set, ratt, and spray it. That's too much trouble for me. I'm really 
into low maintenance hair - and, besides, i'm cold a lot, and long 
hair helps keep me warm. I know - i had fashionably styled hair in 
the 1980s when i worked for entertainment industry accountants in LA, 
and i was cold in the air conditioning with barely shoulder length 
hair.

However, since the world revolves around my mother, naturally 
anything i do she disapproves of, i must be doing because of her. I 
guess she thinks when i'm away from her i have short hair, and wear 
lots of makeup and navy blue pantsuits.

Anahita

(i'm not attacking short hair or navy blue pantsuits if they are 
someone's own choice, they're just not mine - and i do wear makeup, 
especially when i'm going to a Goth club to dance)
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
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Katheryne <purplkat@optonline.net> responded:
>You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???
>
>I thought I had the only one.

     These stories are too funny!  Do you kow why parents are so good at
pushing our buttons?  Because they put them there.

     I also got reactions as if I was dressing to annoy my mother.  I
think it's a common phase for all teenagers to wear things  thier
parents would disapprove of.  Last time I was in an airport, though,
I saw a few moms in jeans and tight tops that were not far off from
what their daughters were wearing.

     I think many people go through the teenage phase and then switch to
professional & casual clothes.  Others maintain a personal style.

     My mother hates the leather jacket I wear, and I don't like it when
she gives me clothes.  Thankfully mail-order allows returns. 
Otherwise she's found better things to disagree with me about.

     I know it's been mentioned before, but for long hair I recommend The
Long Hair Site (tlhs).

     -Carol
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:53:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] FW: Big Historical Doings
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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*sigh*

If only I had $110 right now...I'd be telling work
"C-ya!"

Kate, you're an evil evil woman....


Angharad / Wolfcat




		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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Thank you list, I am not alone!  Especially on the long hair issue.

I don't let my mother dictate what I wear, it's just I know she will 
comment on it and be tiresome.  And she keeps asking when am I going to 
get my hair cut.  (Not to mention what about grandchildren ;-) )  I 
never was much good at fashion, and as I've got older I have gained the 
confidence to just be comfortable and not bother.  But I only see my 
parents two or three times a year, so my mother hasn't got used to it. 
My sister lives close to them, and for her things like making sure her 
t-shirt co-ordinates with her slacks come naturally.  Me, it's just the 
first ones out of the cupboard.

Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about 
clothes?

Thanks again for your solidarity.

Jean


"seamstrix@juno.com" <seamstrix@juno.com> wrote
>
>I'm definitely with Teddy on this one. You are a grown woman and 
>capable of making your own descisions on what to wear. As long as it's 
>not crawling with vermin or hideously inappropriate for the weather 
>(shorts and a tank top when it's well below freezing or heavy winter 
>coat in the middle of a hot summer day sort of thing), then your mother 
>needs to face up to the fact that you can wear what you like and if 
>your taste isn't her's, you still have every right to it. My mother 
>hated the fact that I wear my hair long and we had several arguments 
>about it thru the years but I would never cut or style my hair just to 
>please her- I like it long, it's my hair, so I wear it long. End of 
>discussion. If your mother doen't like how you look, maybe she doesn't 
>need to see you? Perhaps you could simply chat over the phone? Let her 
>decide which is more important- seeing you or trying to make you dress 
>according to her standards.
>
>
>
>Karen
>(in a mood to play psychological hard-ball, apparently!)
>
>
>-- Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly
>> and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.
>
>Jean, just becasue she thinks that doesnt mean you *have* to.  Let her
>set her own standards and let you set your own - after all - would she
>let you dictate what *she* should and shouldn't wear?
>
>The green and red outfit sounds scrummy.
>
>If the green is too "loud" for ordinary wear for you, you could try to
>"tone it down " by wearing it with black .... on the other hand, I'd
>suggest wearing it with the red sweater when you visit your
>mother....<evil-grin!>
>
>Teddy
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I think so...I spend more time on costuming and finding the right fabrics/trims than I EVER have on regular clothes (and I work in a big Pharm Company)  It can be interesting at times :)

Chris G.



Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about 
clothes?

Thanks again for your solidarity.

Jean


"seamstrix@juno.com" wrote
>
>I'm definitely with Teddy on this one. You are a grown woman and 
>capable of making your own descisions on what to wear. As long as it's 
>not crawling with vermin or hideously inappropriate for the weather 
>(shorts and a tank top when it's well below freezing or heavy winter 
>coat in the middle of a hot summer day sort of thing), then your mother 
>needs to face up to the fact that you can wear what you like and if 
>your taste isn't her's, you still have every right to it. My mother 
>hated the fact that I wear my hair long and we had several arguments 
>about it thru the years but I would never cut or style my hair just to 
>please her- I like it long, it's my hair, so I wear it long. End of 
>discussion. If your mother doen't like how you look, maybe she doesn't 
>need to see you? Perhaps you could simply chat over the phone? Let her 
>decide which is more important- seeing you or trying to make you dress 
>according to her standards.
>
>
>
>Karen
>(in a mood to play psychological hard-ball, apparently!)
>
>
>-- Teddy wrote:
>
>> Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress smartly
>> and care what other people think of how I look. Grumple.
>
>Jean, just becasue she thinks that doesnt mean you *have* to. Let her
>set her own standards and let you set your own - after all - would she
>let you dictate what *she* should and shouldn't wear?
>
>The green and red outfit sounds scrummy.
>
>If the green is too "loud" for ordinary wear for you, you could try to
>"tone it down " by wearing it with black .... on the other hand, I'd
>suggest wearing it with the red sweater when you visit your
>mother....
>
>Teddy
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Quoted: Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what 
costume periods get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc.

> Not to mention, which styles of which eras get "recycled and updated". 
> Remember the "peasant" styles and "prairie" styles of the early-to-mid 
> 1970's? The revival of '50's music in the '70's, followed by a return 
> of the flared, gored, "poodle" style of "crinoline" skirt ("crinoline" 
> in this case being a gathered tulle petticoat) didn't in the early 
> 1980's? The late 1980's/early 1990's post-"Dress for Success" style of 
> "Power Suits" with 1940's-ish exaggerated shoulder pads and peplum 
> jackets? (I'm sure the exaggerated shoulders of the costumes of 
> _Dynasty_ characters "Krystle Carrington" and "Alexis Carrington 
> Colby" didn't hurt!) And of course the "bell bottoms" and "flares" we 
> wore in the 'sixties and 'seventies are now called "boot-cuts" 
> ("boot-cut" to us meant tapered legs meant to be tucked into the tops 
> of our Frye boots rather than worn over them), and "hip-huggers" are 
> now called "low-rises"...
> (snipped)

 I just found my still-in-great-condition "best" Frye boots (vs. the 
ones I wore to death on my motorcycle!).  Of course, a size 7 doesn't 
FIT anymore (even a largish 7 like these), so I will probably see about 
EBaying them.   Bt I am finding it hard to do - I loved Frye boots so. 
Some of the fashions we loved best in those years never quite leave 
us.    Rowena, Aethelmearc

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I don't think so. I have been stuck wearing uniforms of some kind or another
for many years now, and my first inclination is to run screaming in the
other direction the second I get home. :-) I want to wear whatever tickles
my fancy and what makes me feel good at the time.
I also tend to think there is a big difference between 'fashion' and
'style', you can be very classy and stylish without being fashionable. A
well put together outfit is a well put together outfit regardless of what
the current fashion may be, and if it suits you and looks good on you, its a
winner.

Just my two bits,

Sheridan



>
> Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about
> clothes?
>
> Thanks again for your solidarity.
>
> Jean


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On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:00:59 -0500, Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net> wrote:
> I just found my still-in-great-condition "best" Frye boots (vs. the
> ones I wore to death on my motorcycle!).  Of course, a size 7 doesn't
> FIT anymore (even a largish 7 like these), so I will probably see about
> EBaying them.   Bt I am finding it hard to do - I loved Frye boots so.
> Some of the fashions we loved best in those years never quite leave
> us.    Rowena, Aethelmearc



If you make enough on the old ones replace them with new ones.
http://snipurl.com/bts8
http://bootmaster.com/fryeboots.html

============================
Soda Club Distibutor
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean Waddie" <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste


> Thank you list, I am not alone!  Especially on the long hair issue.

Far from alone!  I love my hippie hair. I'm 41 and right now it's the 
longest it has ever been--it reaches to the bottom of my butt. And it has 
TONS of grey. I color it when I feel like it. If I don't feel like it, I 
don't color it.
>
> Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about 
> clothes?

Again, not at all==but I have found myself yearning to make things like 
linen pants and silk shirts. (Maybe green linen pants and a red silk shirt! 
lol)  Perhaps we are just interested in GOOD clothing in general, rather 
than the off the rack crap!

Dianne


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Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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Never mind, Jean, you can't win anyway! - Nige's mum still thinks he should 
have a short back and sides, and that I should dress her age, not mine (70s not 
20s).  Stark contrast to my own mother, who I'm sure would only be happy if I 
dressed as a pole dancer!  
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From: Jacqueline Johnson <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:45:27 EST, Debloughcostumes@aol.com
<Debloughcostumes@aol.com> wrote:
> Never mind, Jean, you can't win anyway! - Nige's mum still thinks he should
> have a short back and sides, and that I should dress her age, not mine (70s not
> 20s).  Stark contrast to my own mother, who I'm sure would only be happy if I
> dressed as a pole dancer!

That's my grandad's girlfriend. She's in her early 60's (and I'll
admit looks only in her 40's) dresses IMO like a stripper. She tries
to push it off on me (who does EGL for the most part) and while she's
ok shoving her buxom self into spandex I'm not that great with it. She
does however have enough genuine good taste that her clothing gifts
are more than welcome.

-- 
============================
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From: Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net>
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Oh, those were NOT where I should have gone looking.   Now I'm really 
really wanting some.
I'll go stare at the new roof I had to have put on the side part of the 
house.

Jacqueline Johnson wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:00:59 -0500, Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>I just found my still-in-great-condition "best" Frye boots (vs. the
>>ones I wore to death on my motorcycle!).  Of course, a size 7 doesn't
>>FIT anymore (even a largish 7 like these), so I will probably see about
>>EBaying them.   Bt I am finding it hard to do - I loved Frye boots so.
>>Some of the fashions we loved best in those years never quite leave
>>us.    Rowena, Aethelmearc
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>If you make enough on the old ones replace them with new ones.
>http://snipurl.com/bts8
>http://bootmaster.com/fryeboots.html
>
>
>  
>

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <jacquelinejbump@gmail.com>
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On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:40:10 -0500, Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net> wrote:
> Oh, those were NOT where I should have gone looking.   Now I'm really
> really wanting some.
> I'll go stare at the new roof I had to have put on the side part of the
> house.


I feel no guilt. A new roof doesn't make your feet look cute. *eg*

-- 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Your Amazon.com order (#102-4272626-6119337): your
	approval required
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:36:28 -0500
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 10:19 am, Christine Robb wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 08:08:23AM -0500, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
> > I actually did not post the email to complain.  I posted it to illustrate
> > Amazon's service with regard to imported costume-related books.
>
> It must be hit and miss, as my husband ordered it for me for Christmas
> from Amazon, and we received it December 20th.

He must have ordered it before Nov. 25 (which is when I did).  I vaguely 
remember that I was seeing it posted on Amazon as available just before I 
finally decided to order it.  :-(

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <FOEDLIJMMAMODKMIIIMKOEKPDNAA.brujne@creighton.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:31:30 -0500
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Ah, but what do you make of the present butt enhancers?  It would seem that
there are some people out there that would give anything for a more shapely
derriere.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste


>
>
>  Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what costume
periods
> get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc.  For instance, we don't
see
> much in patterns for the bustle era, especially between 1870-1876 or
> 1884-1887 where the bustle was especially prominent. It is not considered
> beautiful in a time-frame where a comparatively flat rear end is
considered
> attractive. I personally think all the diet aids, exercise equipment, and
> plastic surgery to acheive the presently aesthetically perfect abs and
> rear-end equally as consumer-driven as any ad for the various bustle pads,
> cages, and corsets of the 19th c bustle era.
>
> Cindy Abel
>
> BTW: I did purchase through Amazon.com both volumes for the mid-bustle
> period: 1877-1882
>
> _______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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I dunno if it's weird or not, but it seems perfectly natural to me! (I'm 
very much the same way.)  And my sister's much better with fashion 
anything than I....
--sue

Jean Waddie wrote:

> My sister lives close to them, and for her things like making sure her 
> t-shirt co-ordinates with her slacks come naturally.  Me, it's just the 
> first ones out of the cupboard.
> 
> Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about clothes?
> 
> Thanks again for your solidarity.


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:38:34 -0500
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I've been looking at the yard goods too...After the recent Boston trip, I
have decided that what I like too about the style is that indeed they do not
go*out*! Two of my favorites are full length coats. In this Pa. climate, I
find them the right buffer from the cold.  They are, afterall, triple
layered cotton.  And just the thing to wear over the sangli or other long
dresses.
Kathleen
(And I have been thinking that my husband could use a nice block printed
shirt!)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lauren Walker" <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Marketplace


> Hi, Kathleen,
> I didn't think you sounded like a "lloyd"! ;-) It's true that the
> Marketplace clothes evoke some other time and place, one half-magical and
> half-historic. How I've handled the expense is to convince my mother that
> they are my favorite presents; since she now shops entirely by mail-order,
> and shares my do-gooder tendencies, she's delighted to dispatch my
birthday
> with a Marketplace dress or kurta every year. And as the great thing about
> unusual clothing is that, never being *in* fashion they never go *out*, I
> just happily build my collection. I would like at some point to buy yard
> goods from them, too, but just haven't managed it yet.
> Lauren
>
> > From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
>
> >
> > Thank you Lauren.  You said it better that I.  As these garments are not
> > exactly cheap, I salve my conscience with the social credo of the
company.
> > Another fun use of my wardrobe has been to use all of the collection
> > (upwards of probably 25costumes) for Bibically set productions.  So far,
the
> > shows have been "Amahl" and also "Noes Fludd".  They immediately set the
> > scenes in some other time and place.
> > Kathleen
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
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The hair is what would always set my mother off...it should be very short
(but feminine) and only natural color.  From my 40's-50's she would ask if
the color was real or enhanced.  When I reminded her that she used Clariol
in that time period, she would say"I never...".  Now I hope I live long
enough to sport the beautiful white halo she had in her 80's.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <lilinah@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste


> Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >  > Next week I go and visit my mother, who thinks I should dress
> >smartly and care what other people think of how I look.  Grumple.
>
> Katheryne <purplkat@optonline.net> responded:
> >You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???
> >
> >I thought I had the only one.
> >
> >She is STILL waiting for me to out-grow my 'phase' of wearing jeans
> >and turn to wearing a 'proper' knee length dress. (I am 37)
> >GAG!!!!
>
> Well, i'm 55 and my mother *still* thinks i dress the way i do just
> to annoy her. I haven't lived with my parents since i was 15, and
> moved far away when i was 18.
>
> For example, i like to wear hats. My mother hates hats. Ergo, if i
> wear a hat it must just be to annoy her. Of course, i wear hats when
> i'm not around her. My entree into wearing hats had absolutely
> nothing to do with her. It came about from two experiences: (1) my
> boarding school required us to attend church, and back in the mid-60s
> women had to wear head coverings in church, so i had to get a few
> hats, and (2) i lived in the Chicago area, and on Sundays when blues
> clubs couldn't sell alcohol during the day, they opened so we
> suburban white kids could watch the great blues men (like Muddy
> Waters and Howling Wolf) play, so i got to see African-American women
> in their Sunday best wearing really *great* hats. Truly an
> inspiration. I've got hats from the 19-teens to the 1940s and some by
> new hat makers that are pretty strange, and i've picked up all the
> Vogue "Vintage" style hat patterns. Hats can be like little
> sculptures sitting on one's head.
>
> Another example: a while back i went to visit for a couple days (they
> had moved to Southern California and i'm in NoCal) and i brought
> clothes that made me happy and that i was comfortable in and that i
> thought looked good. We were going out to a nice pizza place for
> dinner. My mother actually said she would not be seen in public with
> me if i wore the dress i had on (Folkwear Afghani Dress, in 13
> different light lavender cottons - definitely not a style or color
> she'd wear). I said i'd just stay behind and make my own dinner. My
> dad (now dead 7 years) kind of convinced her to allow me to go as i
> was. Nobody shunned us because of my odd clothing. Two days later i
> was out somewhere with my brother, wearing the same dress. A total
> and complete stranger came up to me and told me how much she liked my
> dress. (shrug)
>
> A final example: I have butt length hair, and i now have grey at my
> temples. My mother keeps waiting for me to cut it off and dye it and
> set, ratt, and spray it. That's too much trouble for me. I'm really
> into low maintenance hair - and, besides, i'm cold a lot, and long
> hair helps keep me warm. I know - i had fashionably styled hair in
> the 1980s when i worked for entertainment industry accountants in LA,
> and i was cold in the air conditioning with barely shoulder length
> hair.
>
> However, since the world revolves around my mother, naturally
> anything i do she disapproves of, i must be doing because of her. I
> guess she thinks when i'm away from her i have short hair, and wear
> lots of makeup and navy blue pantsuits.
>
> Anahita
>
> (i'm not attacking short hair or navy blue pantsuits if they are
> someone's own choice, they're just not mine - and i do wear makeup,
> especially when i'm going to a Goth club to dance)
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon? (was "Re: Your Order,
	etc.")
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 1:13 pm, Lauren Walker wrote:
> > From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> >
> > On Thursday 06 January 2005 12:02 am, Lauren Walker wrote:
> >> Poor you.
[I said:]
> > I actually did not post the email to complain.  I posted it to illustrate
> > Amazon's service with regard to imported costume-related books.

[and Lauren replied:]

> No, but it IS unfortunate when you're waiting for a book to get a delay
> notice. I think more things sound like sarcasm on e-mail than are intended;
> I was just commiserating.

I didn't think you were being sarcastic; but I did fear that you were gently 
chiding me for whining (especially when I complained a little while ago on 
the list about not having the money to afford all the new costume books that 
I wanted.  The raise I got at the end of December helped a lot in that 
regard.  :-) ).


> On the other hand, whenever a company that sucks is trying to establish a
> monopoly and drive its competition out of business, I really try hard to
> support alternatives and encourage other folks to support alternatives so
> that the alternatives have a better shot at continuing to exist. I don't
> want Amazon to be my only choice.

Good.  I agree with that.  I always have.  Amazon has simply never been 
effective for me as a costume book source; I went with them for the 
Anglo-Saxon book because they *were* selling it at such a good price *and* I 
had an Amazon gift certificate to further cut my actual out-of-pocket 
expense.

> If you usually buy from your local 
> independent bookseller, too, then good on you.

Ironically, she's not geographically all that local to me, but she sells at a 
lot of the science fiction conventions that I attend, and I consider her a 
friend.  She also sells at some SCA events in the mid-Atlantic states.  Her 
name is Devra Langsam, and she does do website sales.  She does business as 
Poison Pen Press, and her website is

http://www.poisonpenpress.com/index.html

(shameless plug for good friend ends here).  :-)


> Enjoy your Amazon gift 
> certificate. But when considering the general unreliability and frustrating
> nature of Amazon it is worth considering also that it may be worth a couple
> of bucks to get relaible, un-frustrating service, and maybe even worth a
> couple of bucks to keep the reliable and un-frustrating service provider in
> business. 

I agree.  Of course, it's impossible for any vendor of costume history 
research to be completely reliable--for reasons entirely out of the vendor's 
control.  I once ordered a costume book from a small business in the UK, 
waited for months, only to eventually be told that the shop could no longer 
get the book because it had already gone out of print.

Poison Pen Press had the book.  However, Devra had it for $40 more (i.e., 
total price over $100) than the British vendor.  In addition, by the time I 
flipped through it, I realized that the book was not worth $100 to me (few 
illustrations, poor organization) so I didn't buy it.  If it had been 
worthwhile, I would have.


> Historical costumers rely so heavily on small-niche vendors that 
> I feel an obligation, where I can, to spend my dollars with those vendors
> even when they don't provide the very best deal. I can't always afford to
> -- but I try.

I do when I can.  Frankly, costume-related materials are one area where I 
usually find that the best deals come from small independents.  And who 
knows?  Amazon may wimp out and decide they can't or won't fill my order 
(it's happened to other people) and I may end up buying it from a niche 
vendor anyway.  :-)


> It's like paying a little extra to buy my Indian block print 
> dresses from Marketplace -- I love  Indian prints, and at least this way I
> know they're not being made by child labor for starvation wages. It's
> always a trade-off, but I try to be conscious of the decision each time I
> make it.

I would love to purchase more from Marketplace, because I really like and 
respect their business model and their drive, but unfortunately I find a lot 
of their clothes ugly and off-putting. :-(


>
> Besides, my local independent gives me a 20% discount on next purchase for
> every $100 I spend, and there wasn't any shipping (so no wait and no
> charge) and so I got Dress in Anglo Saxon England for $40, and had a great
> little conversation with the clerk about other books he's gotten from
> Boydell.

That's what I like to hear!  Both sides are doing well by doing good; 
everybody wins.  :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:16:31 -0500
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 2:19 pm, aquazoo@patriot.net wrote:
> Katheryne <purplkat@optonline.net> responded:
> >You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???

[rest cut]

Wow. I guess I never appreciated my good fortune in mothers before.

My mother let me select my own clothes (at the time of purchase, not just 
picking outfits to wear every day) since I was about 8 years old.  As it 
happened, usually she agreed with me.  If she didn't, she'd try to talk me 
out of the purchase--but she would buy the item if I insisted.  

And when I started trying to make historic costume, she showed me how to use 
her sewing machine, and even helped me sew the tricky parts.  

She died of cancer ten years ago, and I still miss her good cheer, and her 
common sense.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
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On Thursday 06 January 2005 5:35 pm, Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote:
[snip]
> > Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about
> > clothes?
>
> Again, not at all==but I have found myself yearning to make things like
> linen pants and silk shirts. (Maybe green linen pants and a red silk shirt!
> lol)  Perhaps we are just interested in GOOD clothing in general, rather
> than the off the rack crap!

Or maybe we are just interested in unusual or interesting clothing, and not 
mass-produced crap.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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FWIW, today's word from "A Word a Day" web/e-mail list, is "nark".  Here is 
a link to its definition:

http://wordsmith.org/words/nark.html

So the costume term "snark" appears to have some logical source after all......

Sandy

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Subject: Re: Frye Boots (WAS: Re: [h-cost] Re: modern
	clothing,historical taste)
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At Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:40:10 -0500, Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net> wrote:

>Oh, those were NOT where I should have gone looking.   Now I'm really 
>really wanting some.

I wanted a pair SOOOOooo badly in high school that I saved up money and 
convinced my mom to let me buy a pair. The problem is, I've always had wide 
calves and the only pair that could be made to fit (sort of) was a front 
lace-up style. Between the tight fit over the calves, the unfinished 
interior, and the leather that never got worked in to the point of 
softness, those boots were SOoooo uncomfortable that I don't think I wore 
them a half-dozen times before they got relegated to the back of the closet.

Some years later, and in crappy condition from everything being piled on 
top of them, I gave them to one of my sister's friends who wore that size 
boot. I've been hesitant about Fryes and "cowboy" boots ever since...



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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Subject: [h-cost] Some Updates
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Been up way to long working on a surprise for our online Library... been working about 14 hours straight.  So I will pass along to the list our website newsletter to let you know about the additions from the past month.  Many of the old-timers on the h-costume will feel really old when you finish reading this message.

LIBRARY UPDATES:
We now have an 1868 addition of the British book,  The Corset and the Crinoline, http://www.costumegallery.com/1868/CorsetBook/ . This is considered one of the favorite books among for historic costumers. This book has several chapters.  Today we have Chapter 1 online in its entirety.  It contains 11 webpages and 5 illustrations.  I have listed the contents for Chapter 2, which will hopefully be live in the next couple of days. Please check back frequently for additional chapters. This book is being hand-typed and all the images restored.

Over the Christmas holidays we added two new items to the Library.  We now have  A Year in Fashion: 1847, http://www.costumegallery.com/1847/.  It includes a fashion trends article from The Illustrated London News. Also from the same publication, the site include fashion illustrations with descriptions for ladies dresses, mantelets (capes), bonnets & caps, children's fashions, parasols, and a riding habit. There is a total of 16 webpages and 15 fashion illustrations. Also take a peek at the May Lady illustration. She is very lovely!

Another big addition to the Library is A Year in Fashion: 1814: Book: Principles of Politeness and of Knowing the World: Men's etiquette book, http://www.costumegallery.com/1814/Chesterfield/ . This was the last works of Lord Chesterfield, an authority on etiquette. The book is completely online and contains 30 webpages.






CELEBRATION:

Yesterday was the seventh anniversary of The Costume Gallery being a professional website (Jan. 6, 1998).   This date is also the fourth anniversary of our  Costume Classroom, http://www.costumeclassroom.com . Our online Library, aka, Historic Costume Research, was the foundation of our website. On June 30, 1996, I opened the website as an aid to people researching historic costumes. It was basically a link site then. Today, all of our websites contain a total of over 7,000 webpages and app. 35,000 images.  Monthly, we currently receive an average of 500,000 visitors to our websites coming from 144 countries.  I remember when I was thrilled to receive 100 visitors in one day. About 30 people worldwide are currently working on our website. We've come a long way Baby!

COSTUME CLASSROOM

Because of our websites' move, the 2005 schedule for classes is not live on the site yet.  We generally take this time to update the entire Classroom site.  Semester classes are listed on the schedule.  They will begin on Jan. 17th.  

We have a new instructor, Elizabeth Stewart Clark.  She is known all around the U.S. for her traveling sewing school.  She will be teaching two classes.  The first will be making corsets and will begin Jan. 17.  I will announce this weekend when the class is open for registration.  

I think that is it for now.  Time to head to bed!  Have a wonderful day!

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com 
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com 
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
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Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote:
> http://wordsmith.org/words/nark.html
> 
> So the costume term "snark" appears to have some logical source after 
> all......

It may, but I don't think it's this one.  My understanding was that it 
was from "The Hunting of the Snark" by Lewis Carroll.

However, I wouldn't swear by it.  But the use of "snark" to mean 
unwarranted sniping is probably recent enough that it could be tracked 
down by an amateur linguist interested enough to spend the time.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Are you at peace with your role in the food chain?  Would you like a 
t-shirt with a medieval horseman and hawk on it?  A mug which tells you 
which way to the Egress?  http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures
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	<200501062316.31329.cathy@thyrsus.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
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Our younger daughter '''was so difficult" in her formative years re
clothing/fashion.  At about age 11 we gave her a semester clothing allowance
which she was allowed to spend as she saw fit.  If she blew it all on one
item, tough. This excluded underwear and basic footwear. After about three
semesters,she was beginning to have some shopping savvy.By the time of her
first Prom, she greeted me on Saturday afternoon with "I found my prom gown!
The bad news is that it is $400. The good news is that I found the pattern
at JoAnn's as well as the fabric and trim"  The bad news for me was that I
was in the middle of putting out a show to be delivered on Wedensday and her
Prom was the Saturday following.  The Vogue pattern had 32 pieces!!!  She
did learn to make gold lame roses...
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste


> On Thursday 06 January 2005 2:19 pm, aquazoo@patriot.net wrote:
> > Katheryne <purplkat@optonline.net> responded:
> > >You mean you have One Of THOSE Mothers???
>
> [rest cut]
>
> Wow. I guess I never appreciated my good fortune in mothers before.
>
> My mother let me select my own clothes (at the time of purchase, not just
> picking outfits to wear every day) since I was about 8 years old.  As it
> happened, usually she agreed with me.  If she didn't, she'd try to talk me
> out of the purchase--but she would buy the item if I insisted.
>
> And when I started trying to make historic costume, she showed me how to
use
> her sewing machine, and even helped me sew the tricky parts.
>
> She died of cancer ten years ago, and I still miss her good cheer, and her
> common sense.
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue
> that counts."--Winston Churchill
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> Devra Langsam, and she does do website sales.  She 
> does business as 
> Poison Pen Press, and her website is
> 
> http://www.poisonpenpress.com/index.html
> 
> (shameless plug for good friend ends here).  :-)


I bought a book from her last year at the recommendation of someone on
LiveJournal and found her very helpful and friendly and it was a
thoroughly smooth transaction.  I'd recomend Poison Pen on that basis.

Teddy
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Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:57:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon? (was "Re: Your Order,
	etc.")
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
In-Reply-To: <200501062305.54232.cathy@thyrsus.com>
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I agree with you both completely.  I went w/Amazon because of the price, but I think I'd rather just pay a couple of dollars extra and NOT deal w/them in the future.  I would have thought that the folks who'd pre-ordered (July for me) would have gotten first dibs...
 
LOVE Poisen Pen Press.  I always look forward to seeing her at Lunacon every year :)  Plug #2 as she's great!

Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com> wrote:
I don't want Amazon to be my only choice.

Good. I agree with that. I always have. Amazon has simply never been 
effective for me as a costume book source; I went with them for the 
Anglo-Saxon book because they *were* selling it at such a good price *and* I 
had an Amazon gift certificate to further cut my actual out-of-pocket 
expense.

IIronically, she's not geographically all that local to me, but she sells at a 
lot of the science fiction conventions that I attend, and I consider her a 
friend. She also sells at some SCA events in the mid-Atlantic states. Her 
name is Devra Langsam, and she does do website sales. She does business as 
Poison Pen Press, and her website is

http://www.poisonpenpress.com/index.html

(shameless plug for good friend ends here). :-)


		
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Jan  7 11:29:00 2005
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From: Joannah Hansen <Joannah@sluggy.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] colours
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If  you're going with pastel colours, a bit of metallic silver would add an extra touch of richness, perhaps in the bows on the flower sprays.
My 2 cents worth.
Joannah.
--- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:53:14 +0100
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] colours
Hi again,
Sorry for not responding, but i got a nasty cold here........
Anyway  i  want to thank you all for your fine advises, you are
right, it is
as if some colours dies and others lives up on the blue satin.
It is very tricky, and i must admit that colour is not my forse
in any way.
I  have  ben studying all the photos i have taken at the danish
national
museum,  i  just  wished they were better, they should have ben
taken with my
digital  camera, but i used the old one back then. There is one
jacket /suit/
that  i have noticed particularly it is embroidered on a pastel
green
background,  and  all  the  colours  in the embroidery also are
pastel colours.
I  have desided for the design in the embroidery. I have stolen
some of it
from a book, and i have added a little of my own into it.
It  has  berries in it, i want to make some berries with french
knots, if they
are  going  to  be blackberries or they should be raspberries i
dont know yeat,
they  should  be  unripe,  and  therefore not entirely black or
blue, but some
green added.
Finally  i  also have added a border wich i resently learned to
make in satin
stitches, it will hold the whole design better i think.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/bouquetjacket
The bow and the border and the balls should be the same colour.
I can see
that   i   have   to   cut  out  a  piece  of  the  fabric  for
samplers..............
Thanks  again  for  your  advises  all  of  you,  and happy new
year...........
Bjarne
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk
http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon? (poison pen press)
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> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:05:54 -0500
> From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon? (was "Re: Your
> Order, etc.")
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <200501062305.54232.cathy@thyrsus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Thursday 06 January 2005 1:13 pm, Lauren Walker wrote:
> > > From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> > If you usually buy from your local
> > independent bookseller, too, then good on you.
>
> Ironically, she's not geographically all that local to me, but she sells
at a
> lot of the science fiction conventions that I attend, and I consider her a
> friend.  She also sells at some SCA events in the mid-Atlantic states.
Her
> name is Devra Langsam, and she does do website sales.  She does business
as
> Poison Pen Press, and her website is
>
> http://www.poisonpenpress.com/index.html
>
> (shameless plug for good friend ends here).  :-)
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
I'll add to that. If I'm at an event that she's at, I know I'll be eating
pasta for a month afterwards. Over half my costuming and embroidery books
come from her. She's fabulous.

Bob Dorr--Robert of stonemarche


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She's on a couple of my SCA-related lists, and she's always been very 
nice, as well as knowledgeable.
--sue, who's waiting for her books (Woven into the Earth AND the Gale 
Owen-Crocker book) to come (ordered through Amazon, but then I've never 
had a problem with any incarnation of Amazon....)

Teddy wrote:

>>Devra Langsam, and she does do website sales.  She 
>>does business as 
>>Poison Pen Press, and her website is
>>
>>http://www.poisonpenpress.com/index.html
>>
>>(shameless plug for good friend ends here).  :-)
> 
> 
> 
> I bought a book from her last year at the recommendation of someone on
> LiveJournal and found her very helpful and friendly and it was a
> thoroughly smooth transaction.  I'd recomend Poison Pen on that basis.
> 
> Teddy
> 

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon? (was "Re: Your Order,
	etc.")
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:07:33 -0500
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On Friday 07 January 2005 10:57 am, Chris wrote:
> I agree with you both completely.  I went w/Amazon because of the price,
> but I think I'd rather just pay a couple of dollars extra and NOT deal
> w/them in the future.  I would have thought that the folks who'd
> pre-ordered (July for me) would have gotten first dibs...
>
> LOVE Poisen Pen Press.  I always look forward to seeing her at Lunacon
> every year :)  Plug #2 as she's great!

You go to Lunacon?  So do I.  We should arrange to meet, somehow!!!


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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I had come to understand the SNARK was from  Snotty, Nosed, Arrogant, can't
remember the last two. I think R = rude.

De

-----Original Message-----
Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote:
> http://wordsmith.org/words/nark.html
>
> So the costume term "snark" appears to have some logical source after
> all......

It may, but I don't think it's this one.  My understanding was that it
was from "The Hunting of the Snark" by Lewis Carroll.

However, I wouldn't swear by it.  But the use of "snark" to mean
unwarranted sniping is probably recent enough that it could be tracked
down by an amateur linguist interested enough to spend the time.

--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent



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From: Stephanie Smith <sismith42@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Norman Clothing
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Hi All,

Does anyone know of a good book/source of information
for Norman (as in the French region, not the conquest
;-) ) dress? I know that general French is a good
start, but my fiancée would dearly love
Norman-specific resources to help his costuming
efforts. French-launguage material isn't a problem;
mon fiancée est Français ;-)  Medieval would be best,
but I think he's branching out into other time periods
as well, since he's not as into the SCA as he once
was.

Thanks!
Stephanie



		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Is it worth buying from Amazon?
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On Friday 07 January 2005 8:30 pm, Sue Clemenger wrote:
> She's on a couple of my SCA-related lists, and she's always been very
> nice, as well as knowledgeable.

Thanks for all the kind words about Devra and her business!

One more good thing about Devra.  She will accept recommendations for new 
costume books she should try to track down and order and add to her 
inventory, and if she can obtain them through her network of publishers, she 
wil.  (A number of books on there right now are there because I suggested she 
order them.) 

I think I'll go off and suggest she carry "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England." :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:57:57 +0000
> From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <LlcgZiIVZa3BJwdJ@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
> 
> Thank you list, I am not alone!  Especially on the long hair issue.
> 
> I don't let my mother dictate what I wear, it's just I know she will
> comment on it and be tiresome.  And she keeps asking when am I going to
> get my hair cut.  (Not to mention what about grandchildren ;-) )  I
> never was much good at fashion, and as I've got older I have gained the
> confidence to just be comfortable and not bother.  But I only see my
> parents two or three times a year, so my mother hasn't got used to it.
> My sister lives close to them, and for her things like making sure her
> t-shirt co-ordinates with her slacks come naturally.  Me, it's just the
> first ones out of the cupboard.

The more I hear about problems with parents like this, the more
grateful I am to have the ones I have - I actually care more about
fashion than perhaps anyone in my family, and I tend to not always
look my most presentable all the time either :P
> 
> Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about
> clothes?

Not really. I DO care about my "mundane" style, but lack of
ability/sheer laziness often keeps me in jeans/t-shirts and very basic
colors most of the time. I like the current trends for things OTHER
than basic black, but frankly they mystify me - I'm cautious about
patterns and mixing colors because I'm convinced I don't have the
"savoir faire" to carry it off.

Ultimately it comes down to prioritizaton - given limted funds, I'll
likely choose making something costumey (or even mundane) over
shopping in the mall.
> 
> Thanks again for your solidarity.
> 
> Jean


Allison T.
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:57:57 +0000
> From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing,historical taste
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <LlcgZiIVZa3BJwdJ@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
> 
> Thank you list, I am not alone!  Especially on the long hair issue.
> 
> I don't let my mother dictate what I wear, it's just I know she will
> comment on it and be tiresome.  And she keeps asking when am I going to
> get my hair cut.  (Not to mention what about grandchildren ;-) )  I
> never was much good at fashion, and as I've got older I have gained the
> confidence to just be comfortable and not bother.  But I only see my
> parents two or three times a year, so my mother hasn't got used to it.
> My sister lives close to them, and for her things like making sure her
> t-shirt co-ordinates with her slacks come naturally.  Me, it's just the
> first ones out of the cupboard.

The more I hear about problems with parents like this, the more
grateful I am to have the ones I have - I actually care more about
fashion than perhaps anyone in my family, and I tend to not always
look my most presentable all the time either :P
> 
> Is it weird to be interested in costume but totally not care about
> clothes?

Not really. I DO care about my "mundane" style, but lack of
ability/sheer laziness often keeps me in jeans/t-shirts and very basic
colors most of the time. I like the current trends for things OTHER
than basic black, but frankly they mystify me - I'm cautious about
patterns and mixing colors because I'm convinced I don't have the
"savoir faire" to carry it off.

Ultimately it comes down to prioritizaton - given limted funds, I'll
likely choose making something costumey (or even mundane) over
shopping in the mall.
> 
> Thanks again for your solidarity.
> 
> Jean


Allison T.
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: lunacon
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We'll be there this year, as we're guests.

Pierre and Sandy

>From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
>On Friday 07 January 2005 10:57 am, Chris wrote:
> > LOVE Poisen Pen Press.  I always look forward to seeing her at Lunacon
> > every year :)  Plug #2 as she's great!
>You go to Lunacon?  So do I.  We should arrange to meet, somehow!!!
>
>Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Cool!

On Sunday 09 January 2005 12:00 am, Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote:
> We'll be there this year, as we're guests.
>
> Pierre and Sandy
>

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Marquesate <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 'Renaissance Dyeing': yarn dyeing company
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I just found this link and I am impressed by their lovely range of embroidery
yarns. It's a small company that specialises on historically correct dyeing:

http://www.naturaldyeing.co.uk/index.html

I especially like their Elizabethan embroidery colour range.

Nicole


	
	
		
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Subject: [h-cost] fabric junkie alert
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If you're on the Joann's mailing list you might have seen this month's 
sale flyer which is advertising 50% off the $1-$5 clearance fabrics next 
week.

Fact is, most of the stores have already received their shipments of 
dollar fabrics, or put the bolts on the markdown aisles and the 
selection won't be any better than it is right now.

I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other 
goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff 
from last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.



Dawn


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From: "khanson" <khanson@kc.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] fabric junkie alert
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:34:11 -0600
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Bah, the Joann's where I live doesn't carry linen and silk; they cater
pretty much to the quilting and crafting folk. :(

Talia


>I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other
>goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff
>from last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.

>Dawn




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khanson wrote:

> Bah, the Joann's where I live doesn't carry linen and silk; they cater
> pretty much to the quilting and crafting folk. :(
> 

I see you're in the KC area. I was just at the store in Independance. 
The one in Overland Park carries linen and silk. Haven't tried the one 
in Shawnee Mission, but that's an upscale neighborhood so they might, too.



Dawn


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Our's doesn't normally, either, (or wool, for that matter, which is a 
tad weird, considering that I'm in Montana!), but I still made off with 
a whole bolt of linen yesterday.  I had actually gone in there to buy a 
couple skeins of #3 perle coton and some felt for a workshop, and there 
was the linen!
It's 54" wide, and about 9 yds in length, and used to be $14/yd.  I got 
it for $2/yd.  It's one of those vaguely 18th centuryish printed 
patterns.  Colors are predominately medium blue, dark golds & taupe on a 
light gold background.  Dress-weight, rather than bottom-weight (maybe 4 
oz?)
They had some other linens equally cheap, but embroidered with weird 
things like little palm trees, or umbrellas.  Great for resort wear, I 
suppose, but nothing I'd use....

--sue

khanson wrote:

> Bah, the Joann's where I live doesn't carry linen and silk; they cater
> pretty much to the quilting and crafting folk. :(
> 
> Talia
> 
> 
> 
>>I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other
>>goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff
> 
>>from last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.
> 
> 
>>Dawn


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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: lunacon
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Yes and yes, I always hope to see your work there Pierre and Sandy,  you two are just amazingly creative!!!  
 
I'd love to Cathy.  Just mailed out my pre-reg yesterday so short of things I won't mention :), I'll be arriving Friday evening around 8:00.  We'll work out the details...
 
Chris G.

Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net> wrote:
We'll be there this year, as we're guests.

Pierre and Sandy

>From: Catherine Olanich Raymond 
>
>On Friday 07 January 2005 10:57 am, Chris wrote:
> > LOVE Poisen Pen Press. I always look forward to seeing her at Lunacon
> > every year :) Plug #2 as she's great!
>You go to Lunacon? So do I. We should arrange to meet, somehow!!!
>
>Cathy Raymond 

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda 

		
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Subject: [h-cost] 17th c. costume symposium
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Don't know if this has come up on the list yet, so here's the information,
as I received it from a friend:

---------- Forwarded message ----------

> The Third R.L. Shep Triennial Symposium on Textiles and Dress
> Saturday, April 9, 2005, 10:00 a.m.-4:30 p.m.
> 
> Leo S. Bing Theater
> Los Angeles County Museum of Art
>  
> Lectures focusing on 17th-century court life, print culture, fashion, and
> textiles during the reign of Louis XIV are the subject of this one-day
> symposium held in conjunction with the Los Angeles County Museum of Art
> exhibition, Images of Fashion from the Court of Louis XIV, on view March
> 12-June 26, 2005.  Fashion plates and court dress, French decorative arts
> and tapestries, miniatures and masquerade, and an in-depth look at the
> reconstruction of LACMA's 17th -century mantua will be among the topics
> discussed.  
> 
> The gathering of esteemed speakers include a keynote address by Aileen
> Ribeiro, Professor, Courtauld Institute of Art, and lectures by Charissa
> Bremer-David, Associate Curator, Sculpture & Decorative Arts, The J. Paul
> Getty Museum, Kimberly Chrisman-Campbell, The Andrew W. Mellon Curatorial
> Fellow in French Art, The Huntington Library, Art Collections, and
> Botanical Gardens, Nicole LaBouff, Curatorial Assistant, Costume and
> Textiles, LACMA, Catherine McLean, Conservator and Head of Textile
> Conservation, LACMA, Susan Schmalz, Associate Conservator, Textile
> Conservation, LACMA, and Mary Schoeser, Senior Research Fellow, University
> of the Arts, London.
> 
> The R.L. Shep Triennial Symposia are supported by the R.L. Shep Symposium
> Endowment for Costume and Textiles. 
> 
> Admission is free, but reservations are required.  
> For program information, e-mail: shepsymposium@lacma.org
> <shepsymposium@lacma.org%20>  or call (323) 857-6081.  
> For reservations, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to: Ticket Sales,
> Los Angeles County Museum of Art, 5905 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA
> 90036, or e-mail scardenas@lacma.org.  Indicate the name and date of the
> program, the number of tickets needed, and your name and mailing address.
> 
> 
> 

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Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:44:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I'll be at Lunacon, too.

If you go on stage during the masquerade, mine are the
hands that will guide you.
The invisible person with the glowing hands.

Ann in CT



		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: lunacon
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We must all try to get together for a bit if not for dinner, breakfast, whatever... :)
 
Chris G. who was in CT this weekend...

Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'll be at Lunacon, too.

If you go on stage during the masquerade, mine are the
hands that will guide you.
The invisible person with the glowing hands.

Ann in CT


		
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On Sunday 09 January 2005 9:44 pm, Ann Catelli wrote:
> I'll be at Lunacon, too.
>
> If you go on stage during the masquerade, mine are the
> hands that will guide you.
> The invisible person with the glowing hands.

I have never done a Masquerade.  I have no interest in coming up with a 
suitable Masquerade shtick, and the single person costumes I prefer to do 
seem silly and ineffectual without shtick in a Masquerade context.

Still, it would be nice to meet you!

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Bought for $2 a yard, 100% wool light weight. 6 yds.
If they come down in price I am going back for more of the 100% linen. :)

De



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lilinah@earthlink.net wrote:

> Well, i'm 55 and my mother *still* thinks i dress the way i do just to 
> annoy her. I haven't lived with my parents since i was 15, and moved 
> far away when i was 18.
>
> SNIP

> However, since the world revolves around my mother, naturally anything 
> i do she disapproves of, i must be doing because of her. I guess she 
> thinks when i'm away from her i have short hair, and wear lots of 
> makeup and navy blue pantsuits.
>
> Anahita
>
> (i'm not attacking short hair or navy blue pantsuits if they are 
> someone's own choice, they're just not mine - and i do wear makeup, 
> especially when i'm going to a Goth club to dance)
>
Trust me you are not alone.  My Father also thinks that everything thing 
I do is just to annoy him.  When I first got my ear pierced at 28 he 
gave me grief for weeks. That is until my older sister, my Mom and 
Grandmother all told me the same thing, "Stephen I've got a couple of 
single earrings that are too good to throw out, do you want them?"  I 
heard all through my thirties that "Men don't dye their hair!" and as I 
told him last I checked I was male so that wasn't true.  I think the 
most memorable moment was at the Family Picnic back in Pennsylvania when 
I came down the stairs wearing my black jeans, red silk shirt, with 
bright red hair and a blond pony tail with red beads braided into it.  
And Father wanted to know what the family was going to think?  I just 
looked at him and snapped back that they are going to think I 'm from 
California!  Later the same trip we were going to church, Grandma want 
me to go and she was fine with my wardrobe, I had on my green and purple 
stripped shirt (It's not as bad as it sounds) with my bone and bead 
chocker.  Father said I should wear a tie, I said sure I've got my Jerry 
Garcia dancing skeletons tie.  I wore the choker.

I know where you are coming from, my Father accused me of making my 
decisions solely based on whatever would annoy him the most.  I looked 
him in the eye and told him that my decisions are based on what is best 
for my family, if it annoys him that was just frosting.

Stephen - 43 and still waiting for his Father to treat him like an adult.

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Subject: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
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To all of our members in Europe, I hope you have weathered (sorry for the 
bad pun) the severe storm with no (or little) damage and no injuries.  From 
the news reports I have read, it sounds like it's been a real mess for many 
of you, especially in the Isles and Scandinavia.
 From stormy California,
Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
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Hi Joan,
Here in Copenhagen all is well. It was a nasty storm, and i was on my work. 
Lucky that the storm got worse when i was going home again. So i was indoors 
when the storm culminated. My job mates who works in the evening hours had 
to call most of the clients and say they could not come out and help, 
because of the weather. I work in the nursing buisiness. We take care of old 
people who lives in their own homes.
4 men was killed in the storm in Denmark. Mostly damages in the woods and 
some roofs wich blew away.
In Jutland, they had floods.
Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan Jurancich" <joanmj@surewest.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:30 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Storms in Europe


> To all of our members in Europe, I hope you have weathered (sorry for the 
> bad pun) the severe storm with no (or little) damage and no injuries. 
> From the news reports I have read, it sounds like it's been a real mess 
> for many of you, especially in the Isles and Scandinavia.
> From stormy California,
> Joan Jurancich
> joanmj@surewest.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Glad to hear that you are surviving the weather! Here in Chicago we are expecting some pretty serious storms later tonight and tomorrow and the West Coast (California) has already been hit pretty hard. Are various list members riding out the winter weather alright?


Karen
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net (Elena O'Tighearnaigh)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] modern clothing, historical taste
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:20:46 +0000
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Alas, Stephen, I'm afraid (IMOE) it won't happen until he has an epiphany.

> Stephen - 43 and still waiting for his Father to treat him like an adult. 

Elena
Emer's Needle Wares
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We're OK here in the midlands of England; my garden fence has been
damaged and the front of the house is littered with birch twigs blown
off the trees, but that's all. They've had it worse in the north, with
several people dead or missing.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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LMAO!
I had some bad problems with my folks when they were alive (and they 
haven't exactly stopped nagging me now that they're dead, either), but 
wardrobe never really came up, except when I was a teenager, and heavily 
into Hash jeans that were so long, you walked on them--the 70s version 
of those low-slung ones you see today.  The nastier the hems of the 
jeans got, the better.  My folks actually sat on me one morning when I 
was headed out the door to catch the school bus, and cut off all the 
nasty fringe on the bottom of my pants! I remember being Oh So 
Humiliated!, but that was more teenage exaggeration than anything.
--sue

Stephen Bergdahl wrote:


> I know where you are coming from, my Father accused me of making my 
> decisions solely based on whatever would annoy him the most.  I looked 
> him in the eye and told him that my decisions are based on what is best 
> for my family, if it annoys him that was just frosting.
> 
> Stephen - 43 and still waiting for his Father to treat him like an adult.


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
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So far, some Severe Stuph has been coming through my home state 
(Montana, in the NW US), but actually kinda scooted around my town and 
dumped on the counties north of us.
Other than that, it's just normally nasty winter weather here.  Which is
good, 'cuz we need the moisture, yadada, yadada....
--sue

seamstrix@juno.com wrote:

> Glad to hear that you are surviving the weather! Here in Chicago we
> are expecting some pretty serious storms later tonight and tomorrow
> and the West Coast (California) has already been hit pretty hard. Are
> various list members riding out the winter weather alright?

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:04:18 -0500
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After rain for two days I have a slightly wet basement, of which I can't
complain.  However many of the towns around here (Washington County, Pa.)
have been walloped again with streams and brook overflows.  These folk
suffered severe flooding in the September storms, from which they are still
trying to get their houses 'back'.  Many had just gotten new furnaces and
appliances. It is a terrible situation.  All along the upper Ohio river
there are towns under several feet of water.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <seamstrix@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe


>
> Glad to hear that you are surviving the weather! Here in Chicago we are
expecting some pretty serious storms later tonight and tomorrow and the West
Coast (California) has already been hit pretty hard. Are various list
members riding out the winter weather alright?
>
>
> Karen
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Jan 10 11:10:08 2005
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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:00:06 +0000
From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: [h-cost]  URGENT!!! Gothic fitted gowns - plea for photos.
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Hello listfolks

This is a fairly urgent call for help:

I need photos (links to, or emailed direct to me if not on the web) of
large women in well-fitted gothic gowns.  By Friday. 

A friend is getting married at the start of February

She hasn't decided on the style of her dress yet (she's just been
uprooted and moved her entire life across an ocean) 

She likes the look of gothic gowns and sideless surcotes.  It's also a
style she could get use from after the wedding.

She has doubts, however, about how flattering such a fitted gown will
look on someone her size.

So if any of you have photos of larger women wearing such gowns that I
could show her before we start some Fast and Furious Frockage this
weekend, I'd be very grateful.

The fabrics are coming from my stash to save her from having the stress
of shopping  (I know I have most of the colours and types of fabric
she's interested in).  Cutting and fitting is my responsibility and a
friend (who fortunately happens to be visiting me from the other end of
the country this weekend anyway) is doing the making-up/sewing.

Thanks in advance!!!

Teddy


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Sound like everyone else in the world has been getting the bad weather that we deserve.  Here in Charlotte, North Carolina it has been just like spring here in the mid -south for 2 weeks.  Just like spring, weather in the 60s and 70s, only a little rain.  Now this this not supposed to hold, and we could get some winter, at the end of the week. Which only means that all the SUV drivers will be spinning their wheels in the ice storm that we are due to have.  

Everone stay safe.

Mia Dappert in Charlotte, NC


		
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Subject: [h-cost] masqued ball
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Hi.
I am so thrilled because my niece will be comming with me to the masqued 
ball. I have all days in this week free, except saturday and sunday, but 
then i also have 14 days hollidays. So it is nearly 3 weeks free.
My niece insisted to come with me to the masqued ball, and i must quicly 
make a dress for her. So i finally will find something to use my shocking 
pink dupioni of.
She shall have a dress of this. I have 12 meters of it.
I have prepared and makes her a pair of stays from Corsets & Crinolines, the 
1780ies corset.
I have no idea how the dress will end up, but so far i have the foundation 
to take care of..............

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:19:08 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
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We've really been remarkably lucky in Edinburgh - so far, touch wood - 
they seem to be saying the worst is to come tomorrow night and then it 
will calm down.  The worst has been in north-west England, but the TV is 
showing flooding in place all over Scotland, and some places where 
people only just got back into their houses from floods last year. 
Living in a 2nd floor flat, half-way up a hill, is very comforting!

We had one lot of scaffolding blown down in town, but Edinburgh is a 
windy place anyway, so things are generally well fixed - or they come 
loose at an earlier stage and get sorted then.

Jean
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-- 
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In a message dated 1/10/2005 5:33:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

I have  no idea how the dress will end up, but so far i have the foundation 
to  take care of..............




Knowing you, it will be magnificent!  Lucky girl!
 
Ann Wass
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  URGENT!!! Gothic fitted gowns - plea for photos.
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Teddy wrote:
> Hello listfolks
> 
> This is a fairly urgent call for help:
> 
> I need photos (links to, or emailed direct to me if not on the web) of
> large women in well-fitted gothic gowns.  By Friday. 
> 

Teddy,
    I don't have my GFD finished, but I have some pics taken of me in 
the fitting mockup that Robin made on me, if they will do. It doesn't go 
below hip level though. They're in Robin's shocking pink linen!
     -Judy Mitchell
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Jan 10 19:52:29 2005
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:weather
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:37 -0500
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Mia,

I think with all bad weather we had... the hurricanes and tropical storms 
during the summer and autumn for the past two years AND the past four bad 
snowy and icy winters... we deserve to soak up these past few weeks of 60/70 
degrees weather.  Its been like the nice autumn that we generally have 
except we don't have colorful leaves on the trees.  Our last two autumns 
were littered by fallen trees and soggy yards.  I was driving through a 
wooded area today where about 75 trees still down from Hurricane Isabel two 
years ago.  The past few weeks I have had my windows during our 60+ degree 
days.  Sunday, the cold weather comes back.  The warm days were nice while 
it lasted.  In Central Virginia, it seems like we receive a warm winter 
about every five years or so.

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com 


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Subject: [h-cost] your local winter weather
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Penny Ladnier <penny@costumegallery.com> wrote:
Mia,

I think with all bad weather we had... the hurricanes and tropical storms 
during the summer and autumn for the past two years AND the past four bad 
snowy and icy winters... we deserve to soak up these past few weeks of 60/70 
degrees weather. Its been like the nice autumn that we generally have 
except we don't have colorful leaves on the trees. SNIPPAGE

 
Dear Penny, 
count yourselves lucky in Virginia this winter, then, - our Island of Jersey seems to have spent most of this winter under a depressing blanket of low cloud and/or drizzle. What has made that particulalrly frustrating and depressing has been that - from where we live high up on the North coast above Bonne Nuit bay, we could look across to the Cherbourg Peninsula basking in bright sunshine only 15 miles away, much of the time.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
---------------------------------
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Subject: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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Greetings!

Some time ago, I remember seeing a travel log type of program on
television about Hampton Court. In it, the presenter said that one
could spend the night in an apartment (?) on the grounds (if I
remember correctly) and that the cost was 40 pounds per person. Does
anyone know anything about it? And, does anyone happen to know the
name of the town that Hampton Court is in?

Thanks so much!

kate
Looking forward to London in the autumn!


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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:46:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Susan Carroll-Clark <nicolaa@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  URGENT!!! Gothic fitted gowns - plea for photos.
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Greetings--

 --- Judy Mitchell <judymitch@oldwaylane.net> wrote: 
> Teddy wrote:
> > Hello listfolks
> > 
> > This is a fairly urgent call for help:
> > 
> > I need photos (links to, or emailed direct to me
> if not on the web) of
> > large women in well-fitted gothic gowns.  By
> Friday. 

I believe I have a couple of them. If I can find all
my pics, you can actually see me improving on the same
woman :-)

I'll check when I'm back home on Weds.

Susan
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:00:29 +1100
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Hampton Court is in South-West London. Right across the Thames from Hampton 
Court Railway Station, which is a great way to get there. Took us around an 
hour each way from a few stations south of the Tower. It's not that far from 
Wimbledon and Heathrow.

Have a great time!

Glenda.

----- Original Message ----- 

> Greetings!
>
> Some time ago, I remember seeing a travel log type of program on
> television about Hampton Court. In it, the presenter said that one
> could spend the night in an apartment (?) on the grounds (if I
> remember correctly) and that the cost was 40 pounds per person. Does
> anyone know anything about it? And, does anyone happen to know the
> name of the town that Hampton Court is in?
>
> Thanks so much!
>
> kate
> Looking forward to London in the autumn!

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Julian,

I really feel for you! Lasso that sun and bring that sun closer to you.

A few years ago, we once had back to back tropical storms sit over our house 
for two weeks.  We could drive five or so miles west, just down the road and 
it was bright sunshine.  To make matters worse, all that rain brought really 
bad mold on the outside of our house... we spent the next summer scrubbing 
it off.  I can say this... all these tropical storms busted our drought! 
Trying to think of the positive side, since we are still finding files 
missing from moving my websites' servers from hurricane alley.

I learned a really important lesson... when choosing a place to host your 
website, always ask if they are located in hurricane or tornado alley, or an 
earthquake zone.  When interviewing companies to host my site, that was my 
first question.  Asking if they are in a flood plain or fire zone to would 
be a good question, too.

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com 


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On Monday 10 January 2005 4:58 am, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Hi Joan,
> Here in Copenhagen all is well. It was a nasty storm, and i was on my work.
> Lucky that the storm got worse when i was going home again. So i was
> indoors when the storm culminated. My job mates who works in the evening
> hours had to call most of the clients and say they could not come out and
> help, because of the weather. I work in the nursing buisiness. We take care
> of old people who lives in their own homes.
> 4 men was killed in the storm in Denmark. Mostly damages in the woods and
> some roofs wich blew away.
> In Jutland, they had floods.

It sounds like a nasty one.  We had a storm like that here in SE Pennsylvania, 
in the USA last fall.  

I'm glad that you weathered the storm okay! Take care.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Bjarne,

Is there any way I can beg the scraps of this wonderful dupioni???

I am in the midst of the final parts of the Elizabethan that drives authenticity-nuts CRAZY!!

It is perfectly done, the corset is correct, the pattern is correct, I cartridge pleated the skirt, everything is correct --

EXCEPT the fabric -- 3" squares of random various fabrics.....
(from leather to lace to silk to double knit polyester to fabric made out of fiberglass (circa 1950's) to linen.

Katheryne
who is having WAY tooo much fun on this dress.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
. So i finally will find something to use my shocking pink dupioni of.
> She shall have a dress of this. I have 12 meters of it.
> 
> Bjarne

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
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> Are various list members riding out the winter weather alright?

Ehehe... It's been pretty mild and quiet in Montreal... unusually quiet...

We had rain a couple of times during the last few weeks, and that's really,
really annoying because it leaves a layer of slippery ice all over the
sidewalks, but aside from that... nothing. It's not even been cold yet. I'm
just hoping the weather will get below -5 and STAY THERE for the rest of the
winter, like it's supposed to, so we can keep the beautiful snow...
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] masqued ball
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Hi Katheryne,

If you send me your snail mail address, i would send the scratches for you.
What fun projeckt you are making here, you must promise us to show it once 
you have finished it.
Now i must go and shop for some muslin for the corset and mock up, 
ahh.........  did i spell it right, mock up or muck up, never remember how 
the right words are.
My sisters greenhouse was smashed in the storm by the way, and she had some 
trees in the garden who fell.


Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <purplkat@optonline.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] masqued ball


> Bjarne,
>
> Is there any way I can beg the scraps of this wonderful dupioni???
>
> I am in the midst of the final parts of the Elizabethan that drives 
> authenticity-nuts CRAZY!!
>
> It is perfectly done, the corset is correct, the pattern is correct, I 
> cartridge pleated the skirt, everything is correct --
>
> EXCEPT the fabric -- 3" squares of random various fabrics.....
> (from leather to lace to silk to double knit polyester to fabric made out 
> of fiberglass (circa 1950's) to linen.
>
> Katheryne
> who is having WAY tooo much fun on this dress.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> . So i finally will find something to use my shocking pink dupioni of.
>> She shall have a dress of this. I have 12 meters of it.
>>
>> Bjarne
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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Hi,
I am green of envy you are going there, the galleries of paintings with 
portraits are to die for. Every time i go and see such a place, i have to go 
quickly trough everything, because i know it bores Leif so much. I could 
easy spend a whole day there.............I recall a long gallery with young 
beauties from 1670ies, i dont know if it was the kings mistresses or 
something, beautifull they were. I also got goose skin when i stood in the 
tudor hall, it was very strange........... Dont miss the labyrinth in the 
garden...
I think to remember that the town is called Hampton Court. You  can look 
over to the castle from the railway station.
Oh and the museum shop has got one of the largest collections of early music 
i have regretted a lot of times, that i did not buy some of those....

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ailith" <ailith@neo.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:43 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)


> Greetings!
>
> Some time ago, I remember seeing a travel log type of program on
> television about Hampton Court. In it, the presenter said that one
> could spend the night in an apartment (?) on the grounds (if I
> remember correctly) and that the cost was 40 pounds per person. Does
> anyone know anything about it? And, does anyone happen to know the
> name of the town that Hampton Court is in?
>
> Thanks so much!
>
> kate
> Looking forward to London in the autumn!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric junkie alert
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Status: RO

How does your Jo-Ann's rate linen and silk?  Mine seems to specialize in 
poly blends.

Jennifer

At 04:47 PM 1/9/05 -0600, you wrote:

>If you're on the Joann's mailing list you might have seen this month's 
>sale flyer which is advertising 50% off the $1-$5 clearance fabrics next week.
>
>Fact is, most of the stores have already received their shipments of 
>dollar fabrics, or put the bolts on the markdown aisles and the selection 
>won't be any better than it is right now.
>
>I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other 
>goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff from 
>last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.
>
>
>
>Dawn
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/05


what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?  Anon.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:30:23 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Storms in Europe


>> Are various list members riding out the winter weather alright?
>
> Ehehe... It's been pretty mild and quiet in Montreal... unusually quiet...

It's been similar here in south-central PA--plenty of rain. but very warm, 
and no snow yet. The temperature is supposed to go to about 60F Wednesday, 
and then drop drastically by the end of the week, back to what is normal!
I know I will gripe when it does snow, because the schools will be closed, 
but this is just abnormal and it makes me twitchy. My Michigan born and bred 
soul needs snow and cold this time of year!

Dianne


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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost]  URGENT!!! Gothic fitted gowns - plea for photos
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>     I don't have my GFD finished, but I have some pics taken of me in 
> the fitting mockup that Robin made on me, if they will do. It 
> doesn't go  below hip level though. They're in Robin's shocking pink
linen!

Judy, that would be a great help - thanks!

Teddy
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Subject: Re: [h-cost]  URGENT!!! Gothic fitted gowns - plea for photos
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> > > I need photos (links to, or emailed direct to me if not on the
web) of
> > > large women in well-fitted gothic gowns.  By Friday.
> 
> I believe I have a couple of them. If I can find all
> my pics, you can actually see me improving on the same
> woman :-)
> 
> I'll check when I'm back home on Weds.

Many thanks, Susan!

Teddy
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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I've never been to Hampton Court, but they have a website at
http://www.hrp.org.uk/webcode/hampton_home.asp 

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] masqued ball
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Status: RO

You're looking for "mockup," with the "o."  "Muck up" is a verb, and 
describes, in casual fashion, well, not doing a good job.  If you muck 
up something, you've made mistakes.  Usually really big ones. ;-)
Sorry to hear about your sister's greenhouse!
--sue

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Hi Katheryne,
> 
> If you send me your snail mail address, i would send the scratches for you.
> What fun projeckt you are making here, you must promise us to show it 
> once you have finished it.
> Now i must go and shop for some muslin for the corset and mock up, 
> ahh.........  did i spell it right, mock up or muck up, never remember 
> how the right words are.
> My sisters greenhouse was smashed in the storm by the way, and she had 
> some trees in the garden who fell.
> 
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <purplkat@optonline.net>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] masqued ball
> 
> 
>> Bjarne,
>>
>> Is there any way I can beg the scraps of this wonderful dupioni???
>>
>> I am in the midst of the final parts of the Elizabethan that drives 
>> authenticity-nuts CRAZY!!
>>
>> It is perfectly done, the corset is correct, the pattern is correct, I 
>> cartridge pleated the skirt, everything is correct --
>>
>> EXCEPT the fabric -- 3" squares of random various fabrics.....
>> (from leather to lace to silk to double knit polyester to fabric made 
>> out of fiberglass (circa 1950's) to linen.
>>
>> Katheryne
>> who is having WAY tooo much fun on this dress.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
>> . So i finally will find something to use my shocking pink dupioni of.
>>
>>> She shall have a dress of this. I have 12 meters of it.
>>>
>>> Bjarne
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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Ah Julian... sounds like you've been hit with a bit of weather just like 
that up here in Ithaca, NY.  We call that Ithacating...  and it usually 
means the entire country side is grey,  damp and cold - with or without 
mud.   And everything is in shades of grey from sky to pavement, to 
ground,  from November to March.   And people wonder why the SO and I 
painted the house screaming electric blue.

And that greyness is exactly the reason that I sew and knit all 
winter.  The colors of the clothing, the fabrics in their silk sheen and 
satin colors,  or the rich wools in colors any color - other then grey, are 
one of the ways I preserve my sanity.

So : costume content...  on my second reading through "Woven into the 
Earth"  I'm finding myself at times thinking... wow - that's a reach -  I 
wonder just how applicable that is?  Any other thoughts?

Bridgette



>Dear Penny,
>count yourselves lucky in Virginia this winter, then, - our Island of 
>Jersey seems to have spent most of this winter under a depressing blanket 
>of low cloud and/or drizzle. What has made that particulalrly frustrating 
>and depressing has been that - from where we live high up on the North 
>coast above Bonne Nuit bay, we could look across to the Cherbourg 
>Peninsula basking in bright sunshine only 15 miles away, much of the time.

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Still have a good search. I can't remember seeing silk in mine either
but they had several bolt ends that were 100% silk. (Scored some lovely
purple).

I think that they send a section to all the stores -- a little of
everything.

But you are right in that most of the stuff was poly or poly-blends (of
course I could see why many were on clearence ... ick).

Onaree

"J.E. Marshall" wrote:
> 
> How does your Jo-Ann's rate linen and silk?  Mine seems to specialize in
> poly blends.
> 
> Jennifer
> 
> At 04:47 PM 1/9/05 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >If you're on the Joann's mailing list you might have seen this month's
> >sale flyer which is advertising 50% off the $1-$5 clearance fabrics next week.
> >
> >Fact is, most of the stores have already received their shipments of
> >dollar fabrics, or put the bolts on the markdown aisles and the selection
> >won't be any better than it is right now.
> >
> >I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other
> >goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff from
> >last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.
> >
> >
> >
> >Dawn
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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-- 
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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:55:59 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric junkie alert
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
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My JoAnn's (Emeryville, Calif.) just started getting dupioni about six
months ago. 8-9 colors and some beaded stuff. I never thought I'd think that
dupioni looked trashy but JoAnn's managed it with the beaded stuff. The silk
is about $12/yd, which is more than I usually have to pay, so I only bought
some with my 40% coupon when I needed 8 yards. With the coupon it was a good
deal. I also found some embroidered black linen in the $3/yard section on
Saturday. Only about 4 yards, but enough for my modern needs. They had lots
of linens and linen blends and prints, all in pastels for $2-3. I can't wear
pastels. Sigh. I suggest you check their linen look area periodically; you
may find some linen hiding amongst the linen looks and blends.

LynnD 


On 1/11/05 3:08 AM, "J.E. Marshall" <jemarshall@fuse.net> wrote:

> How does your Jo-Ann's rate linen and silk?  Mine seems to specialize in
> poly blends.
> 
> Jennifer
> 
> At 04:47 PM 1/9/05 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> If you're on the Joann's mailing list you might have seen this month's
>> sale flyer which is advertising 50% off the $1-$5 clearance fabrics next
>> week.
>> 
>> Fact is, most of the stores have already received their shipments of
>> dollar fabrics, or put the bolts on the markdown aisles and the selection
>> won't be any better than it is right now.
>> 
>> I just got home with bolt-ends of 100% linen and silk noil, among other
>> goodies, for $2 to $3 a yard. A lot of that lovely embroidered stuff from
>> last summer is on clearance now too. Get it while it lasts.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dawn
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/05
> 
> 
> what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?  Anon.
> 




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My Jo-Anns specializes in fleece and 'crafty' fabric.. 

Have to really look for the good stuff....

Katheryne
who would love to find a use for olive green raw silk - in the medieval period....
hhmmm dye it perhaps??   Jo-Anns had 3!! bolts full at $3 / yd

----- Original Message -----
From: "J.E. Marshall" <jemarshall@fuse.net>
> How does your Jo-Ann's rate linen and silk?  Mine seems to specialize in 
> poly blends. 
> Jennifer

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Subject: [h-cost] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was your local winter weather
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M Stewart <ms154@cornell.edu> wrote: Ah Julian... sounds like you've been hit with a bit of weather just like that up here in Ithaca, NY. We call that Ithacating... and it usually means the entire country side is grey, damp and cold - with or without mud. And everything is in shades of grey from sky to pavement, to ground, from November to March. And people wonder why the SO and I painted the house screaming electric blue.

And that greyness is exactly the reason that I sew and knit all winter. The colors of the clothing, the fabrics in their silk sheen and satin colors, or the rich wools in colors any color - other then grey, are one of the ways I preserve my sanity.

So : costume content... on my second reading through "Woven into the Earth" I'm finding myself at times thinking... wow - that's a reach - I wonder just how applicable that is? Any other thoughts?

REPLY
 
Well, our Island's weather today has been just as depressing, - l owering greyish-black clouds, and light drizzle gradually turning into medium-heavy rain during the afternoon. So little light that it was effectively twilight by about 1530 hrs GMT. And I have SAD. too!
 
So by all means let's get back to costumes!  You asked for any other thoughts.
 
1] For our Companie's coming Performance Season, along with my on-going project to redact, full-size, all of the 200 or so escutcheons of Jersey's pre-1509 Armory, - I have decided to re-create the historical persona of King Richard III's Falcon Herald Extraordinary, whose planned Visitation to the Anglo-Norman Isles  did not take place due to the Battle of Bosworth, and the subsequent closure of the newly-founded College of Arms. 
 
So, I would welcome some assistance from Listers; - to whit, - directions to images of 15th Century tabarded Heralds if any on this List either have any, or know where they are to be found.  Because I do not wish to pay the current College's Officer In Waiting the exorbitant fee demanded for simply considering my query.
 
2] - Why is it that so few SCAdians who have created gentle or "noble" characters for themselves - display their House Colours when otherwise wearing non-Heraldic garb? I have been avidly studying the photo galleries of all the Kingdoms for over 2 years now, and I reckon I would be able to count on my fingers the numbers of waist-sashes, and upper-left-arm ribbons in House Colours that I've seen?





Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [other] [h-cost] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was your
	local winter weather
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>
>
>1] For our Companie's coming Performance Season, along with my on-going 
>project to redact, full-size, all of the 200 or so escutcheons of Jersey's 
>pre-1509 Armory, - I have decided to re-create the historical persona of 
>King Richard III's Falcon Herald Extraordinary, whose planned Visitation 
>to the Anglo-Norman Isles  did not take place due to the Battle of 
>Bosworth, and the subsequent closure of the newly-founded College of Arms.
>
>So, I would welcome some assistance from Listers; - to whit, - directions 
>to images of 15th Century tabarded Heralds if any on this List either have 
>any, or know where they are to be found.  Because I do not wish to pay the 
>current College's Officer In Waiting the exorbitant fee demanded for 
>simply considering my query.

When I spoke to the Herald on duty about banners some time ago, he was most 
helpful and directed me to some very useful information. It did not cost me 
anything. I do not have the faintest idea if I kept the information. I will 
look for it when I feel better - dentistry this morning - face ache this 
afternoon!!

I have not forgotten the information re. the Chartres doublet, but was 
hoping to increase it from the keeper at the Tower, who is not answering my 
mail, at the moment.

Suzi


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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [other] [h-cost] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was your local
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Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk> wrote: When I spoke to the Herald on duty about banners some time ago, he was most helpful and directed me to some very useful information. It did not cost me anything. I do not have the faintest idea if I kept the information. I will look for it when I feel better - dentistry this morning - face ache this afternoon!!

I have not forgotten the information re. the Chartres doublet, but was hoping to increase it from the keeper at the Tower, who is not answering my mail, at the moment.

REPLY
 
Dear Suzi, 
sorry for your face-ache; hope it wears off soon.
When I spoke to the Officer in Waiting about a Blazon of - or even a Trick of my character's Arms at the beginning of 2003, when my Companions "volunteered" me for the part [but before I'd discovered that the info. was in our local reference Library anyway] , - he wanted £150 up front, before he'd even start looking. Our Companie doesn't have that kind of money; - we don't have any financial sponsorship yet.. I've never been back. Once is enough.
 
Chartres doublet - I didn't think you had; - everything in it's own good time.
God's benison upon you.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
---------------------------------
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julian wilson wrote:

> So, I would welcome some assistance from Listers; - to whit, -
directions to images of 15th Century tabarded Heralds if any on this
List either have any, or know where they are to be found.

There's a great one that was in the Medieval Women Calendars -- the 
presentation of a prize for a tourney.  The women were wearing butterfly 
henins and there were several heralds.

I only have a picture of one of the women at my site but maybe it will 
be enough for you to find the rest:
http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/1400s_butterfly.jpg

> 2] - Why is it that so few SCAdians who have created gentle or
> "noble"
characters for themselves - display their House Colours when otherwise
wearing non-Heraldic garb?

I don't do it because it's not period for me, near as I can tell.  I've 
read that often the "suit of clothes" given to servants X times per year 
would often be the same color for everyone who was a servant, although 
not the same color from instance to instance -- basically, whatever good 
deal on fabric was available.  But wearing armorial colors when not 
wearing heraldic dress?  I don't think I've heard much about that, 
medievally.  Not that it wouldn't look nice or be fun for SCA use.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Are you at peace with your role in the food chain?  Would you like a 
t-shirt with a medieval horseman and hawk on it?  A mug which tells you 
which way to the Egress?  http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Kimiko Small wrote:

>> Costume in Detail by (alas, left the volume at my daughter's.)  I believe 
>> the publication date is 2000.  The authors use the format that Baumgarten 
>> does in her book of the' same' title.  Their study, however, is from the 
>> ethnic collections at the V&A.
>
> Is that the "sister" book to _Fashion in Detail_ by Hart and North? If so, I 
> have seen that at the stores and pondered getting it, although I am not as 
> much into more "ethnic" garments as I once was.

 	I have _Dress in Detail from Around the World_ by Wilson, Wearden, 
and Crill 2002/2004 which I think is the one to which Kimiko is referring. 
It's very like _Fashion in Detail_ with close up photos but most of the 
garments are 19th and 20th century.  If there is a _Costume in Detail_ 
other than the one by Bradfield I'd love to hear more about it (author, 
publisher).

lisa
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Mucking is originally from gardening and refers to mud and some other bio
matter. :}

Mucking around - goofing off
Mucking up - messy mistake or messed up almost beyond repair.

De



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From: "Helen  Pinto" <hpinto@mindspring.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20050111173954.8123.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was your local winter
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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:09:27 -0500
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Julian wrote:
 directions to images of 15th Century tabarded Heralds if any on this List 
either have any, or know where they are to be found.

Try _King Rene's Tournament Book_ (_Le livre des tournois du roi Rene_); 
there are fascimile copies out there- I've got one in a box somewhere, but I 
can't put my hands on it.  As far as I know, only the text is up on the 
internet, not the illuminations.  A lot of the illuminations from it also 
turn up in those picture books about knights and tournaments.
Good luck with the project.
             -Helen/Aidan 


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If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, there are a couple of nice illuminations of heraldic tabards.   http://sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/tabards.html

Janet

Janet Davis
Castle Furnishings
www.medievalbookstore.com
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Got this off another list and of course I am from BC

http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/bizarro/about.htm


Brin Kendall
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Subject: [h-cost] source for silk faille
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Does anyone have a source for silk (real silk) faille?
It's not scarce, but I've only found two websites that
carry it (denverfabrics.com and
whaleys-bradford.ltd.uk) and I'd like more options.
I'm looking for web stores or physical stores, in the
US or abroad. Is there anything to be found in the LA
or NYC fabric districts?

Thanks, and apologies if I don't reply to responses
right away, I'm way behind on email from this list.



Claudine
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Subject: [h-cost] FW: [calontir-heralds] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was
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>From my Herald's list.

De

-----Original Message-----
Please forward this to Julian: Neubecker's  _Heraldry: Sources, Symbols 
and Meaning_ has a numnber of 15th C. heralds in uniform. On p.18, of 
the colored pictures in the middle of the page, the first one is dated 
~1480. On p.19, the first two colored pictures are also dated from the 
15th C. On p.20, the row of pictures continues with the  first one 
dated 1459, and the second dated before 1516. On p.23, there is a 
picture of the Garter King of Arms from a grant made in 1456. On p.12, 
is a picture of the first Garter KoA who was appointed in 1415. The 
next several pages have pictures from King Rene's  Tournament Book,  
which was written in the mid-15th C. Several heralds and pursuivants 
are shown. Hope this helps.

		Gawain of Miskbridge
		Shadowdale Pursuivant





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Subject: [h-cost] bit OT FW:  SCA boot of pain (fwd)
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Must read the story. I feel sorry for the man but can't help laughing.

De

-----Original Message-----
An auction on eBay, from a lordgustavjameson:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewITem&category=80915&item=5549346158

"SCA Boots of Pain handmade by an Idiot".



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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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Since I live just a few stops along the railway line form Hampton Court,
I've bnever had need to find out if they have on-site accomodation.  i'd
think it was unlikely.however.

Nearby, possibly B&B's or reasonably prioced hotel type stuff.  A
freind's son-in-law runs (or his family run) a hotel within about five
minutes walk of thr gate, for example but I wouldn't have thought they'd
have any on within Hampton Court Palace or the grounds.

Teddy
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I heard about this a few years ago and did some research (with Mel's assistance) and found out that it's run as a self-catering apartment. It's located on Fish Court which is in the Tudor kitchen area. It's an old 'grace and favor' apartment that either the National Trust or National Heritage or some such organization run. It has accomodation for 8 people ( 4 double beds or 4 rooms with twin beds, I can't remember exactly) but it's basically a fully functional apartment so you have a living area, full kitchen, etc. For 8 people the price was quite reasonable, but for only one or two people it got a tad pricey. I'm remembering it as 360 per week in British pounds but that was a couple of years ago and my memory may be faulty anyway. It's still a dream of mine to get several of my Guilde of St. George cronies together to rent it en masse and roam the lanes of Hampton Court after hours in full Elizabethan kit, no doubt causing any number of panic attacks in the process.



Karen
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Subject: Re: [other] Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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At 14:20 12/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:

>I heard about this a few years ago and did some research (with Mel's 
>assistance) and found out that it's run as a self-catering apartment. It's 
>located on Fish Court which is in the Tudor kitchen area. It's an old 
>'grace and favor' apartment that either the National Trust or National 
>Heritage or some such organization run. It has accomodation for 8 people ( 
>4 double beds or 4 rooms with twin beds, I can't remember exactly) but 
>it's basically a fully functional apartment so you have a living area, 
>full kitchen, etc. For 8 people the price was quite reasonable, but for 
>only one or two people it got a tad pricey. I'm remembering it as 360 per 
>week in British pounds but that was a couple of years ago and my memory 
>may be faulty anyway. It's still a dream of mine to get several of my 
>Guilde of St. George cronies together to rent it en masse and roam the 
>lanes of Hampton Court after hours in full Elizabethan kit, no doubt 
>causing any number of panic attacks in the process.


You may find that no-one takes any notice!! A group of Richard lll Society 
members walked through York to the Merchant's House for a banquet in April, 
and some of us stood waiting for taxis in full Wars of the Roses costume, 
houppelandes, horned headdresses, hennins - the lot! No-one blinked an eye. 
It was very sad!!

Suzi


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Subject: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:52:04 -0600
From: "Cindy Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: modern clothing,historical taste

Modern clothing/historical taste also is reflected in what costume periods
get patterns for modern wearers/reenactors, etc.  For instance, we don't see
much in patterns for the bustle era, especially between 1870-1876 or
1884-1887 where the bustle was especially prominent. It is not considered
beautiful in a time-frame where a comparatively flat rear end is considered
attractive. I personally think all the diet aids, exercise equipment, and
plastic surgery to acheive the presently aesthetically perfect abs and
rear-end equally as consumer-driven as any ad for the various bustle pads,
cages, and corsets of the 19th c bustle era.

Cindy Abel

BTW: I did purchase through Amazon.com both volumes for the mid-bustle
period: 1877-1882



The best patterns for this period is by Truly Victorian run by two sisters, 
Laura and Heather MacNaughton.  They have patterns for undergarments as well as 
day and evening bodices and skirts.  The site is: www.trulyvictorian.com

They are extremely helpful and knowledgeable for those who want to do the 
period right.  I have seen many of their creations at Costume College each year 
in Van Nuys,California.  They are beautiful.  Try them out.

Helpfully,

Donna Scarfe
Fyne Hats By Felicity
Period Headgear for Past Ages
www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com
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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] FW: [calontir-heralds] ]Heralds' Tabards 1450-1509 - was
	your local winter weather
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:>From my Herald's list.

De

-----Original Message-----
Please forward this to Julian: Neubecker's _Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meaning_ has a numnber of 15th C. heralds in uniform. On p.18, of the colored pictures in the middle of the page, the first one is dated ~1480. On p.19, the first two colored pictures are also dated from the 15th C. On p.20, the row of pictures continues with the first one dated 1459, and the second dated before 1516. On p.23, there is a picture of the Garter King of Arms from a grant made in 1456. On p.12, 
is a picture of the first Garter KoA who was appointed in 1415. The next several pages have pictures from King Rene's Tournament Book, which was written in the mid-15th C. Several heralds and pursuivants are shown. Hope this helps.

Gawain of Miskbridge
Shadowdale Pursuivant

Dear De,
 
Please convey my deepest thanks to your Herald  for his extremely helpful message. I would never have found those detailed references on my own. Now it's off to the Library to request an ILL for the book.
 
Thanks on behalf of our Companie, to every Lister who has taken the time to respond so generously to my question. Because of your help I now have great hopes of being able to re-create the very first "Falcon Herald Extraordinary" - a task which would have been much more difficult without your assistance.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Just had to add my 'here, here' about Truly Vic.  I have almost all their patterns and their wondeful to work with and very accurate to fit.  Love 'em!!!
 
Chris G.

FyneHats2@aol.com wrote:
The best patterns for this period is by Truly Victorian run by two sisters, 
Laura and Heather MacNaughton. They have patterns for undergarments as well as 
day and evening bodices and skirts. The site is: www.trulyvictorian.com

They are extremely helpful and knowledgeable for those who want to do the 
period right. I have seen many of their creations at Costume College each year 
in Van Nuys,California. They are beautiful. Try them out.

Helpfully,

Donna Scarfe
Fyne Hats By Felicity
Period Headgear for Past Ages
www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
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Me too. Their patterns are lovely; I have about ten of them. The bustle
pattern went together painlessly, and I made it of a heavy satin rather than
the usual cotton, which added several issues to the mix. I made their 1861
bodice pattern in NOvember for Dickens faire and the first muslin was almost
perfect, just needed a bit of tweeking at the shoulders. I didn't even make
a second muslin, just made it up and it fit perfectly. All the pieces went
together beautifully and their instructions are crystal clear if you have
basic sewing skills. Their fitting trick on their bodice patterns is that
the front pieces can be a different size than the back. So if you're broad
backed with an A-cup, it will fit you as well as it will fit someone with a
small back and C-cup. Each pattern is hand graded rather than the usual
commercial grading where everything gets big proportionally.

And if you EVER get the opportunity to take a class from them, jump at the
chance. Every penny will be worth it, whether they're showing you how to
make a bustle or drape a bustle overskirt or fit one of their bodice
patterns or make Victorian trims.

A rabid fan of the McNaughtons,
LynnD 

On 1/12/05 9:14 AM, "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Just had to add my 'here, here' about Truly Vic.  I have almost all their
> patterns and their wondeful to work with and very accurate to fit.  Love
> 'em!!!
>  
> Chris G.
> 
> FyneHats2@aol.com wrote:
> The best patterns for this period is by Truly Victorian run by two sisters,
> Laura and Heather MacNaughton. They have patterns for undergarments as well as
> day and evening bodices and skirts. The site is: www.trulyvictorian.com
> 
> They are extremely helpful and knowledgeable for those who want to do the
> period right. I have seen many of their creations at Costume College each year
> in Van Nuys,California. They are beautiful. Try them out.
> 
> Helpfully,
> 
> Donna Scarfe
> Fyne Hats By Felicity
> Period Headgear for Past Ages
> www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
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I HOPE to be able to take a class(es) from them, but darn it, I'm no longer on the West Coast...I've 'e'd them a couple of times and they are so great about getting right back to you and they always had more than one way to correct the problem I was having.
 
I have the broad back/small chest size you mention and theirs is the ONLY pattern(s) that I dont' have to make 3-4 muslins for.  Yes, I did a little happy dance all around the room.  
 
Hopefully they'll come East one of these days...
 
Chris G.

Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org> wrote:
Me too. Their patterns are lovely; I have about ten of them. The bustle
pattern went together painlessly, and I made it of a heavy satin rather than
the usual cotton, which added several issues to the mix. I made their 1861
bodice pattern in NOvember for Dickens faire and the first muslin was almost
perfect, just needed a bit of tweeking at the shoulders. I didn't even make
a second muslin, just made it up and it fit perfectly. All the pieces went
together beautifully and their instructions are crystal clear if you have
basic sewing skills. Their fitting trick on their bodice patterns is that

		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)
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It's owned by an organisation called The Landmark Trust.  Their website 
is at www.landlmarktrust.org.uk - it will give you some information, but 
you have to send for their brochure to actually book.

The organsiation basically saves old buildings by doing them up and 
letting them for holidays (and sometimes they get access to places that 
don't need them to save them, like Hampton Court).  I've always wanted 
to stay in one of these, but unfortunately most of them are huge and 
only affordable if you go as a party of 8 or 10.  A lot of the small, 
cheap ones are follies and gatehouses and the like, and you find you 
have to go outside across the roof to get from the bedroom to the 
bathroom!

Jean



ailith <ailith@neo.rr.com> wrote
>Greetings!
>
>Some time ago, I remember seeing a travel log type of program on
>television about Hampton Court. In it, the presenter said that one
>could spend the night in an apartment (?) on the grounds (if I
>remember correctly) and that the cost was 40 pounds per person. Does
>anyone know anything about it? And, does anyone happen to know the
>name of the town that Hampton Court is in?
>
>Thanks so much!
>
>kate
>Looking forward to London in the autumn!
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:05 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] heraldic clothing
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You might all like to have a look at these to see how similar the modern 
tabards are - these were the assistants to Lord Lyon King of Arms, at 
the opening of the Scottish Parliament
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmCentre/images/openingCeremony/Preview
Pages/PreviewPage62.htm

This one nearly got Lord Lyon himself, but they seemed to be 
deliberately cutting him out of the photos.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmCentre/images/openingCeremony/Preview
Pages/PreviewPage38.htm

Jean


JAMES OGILVIE <bear_janet@msn.com> wrote
>If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, there are a couple of 
>nice illuminations of heraldic tabards. 
>http://sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/tabards.html
>
>Janet
>
>Janet Davis
>Castle Furnishings
>www.medievalbookstore.com
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Jean Waddie wrote:

> The organsiation basically saves old buildings by doing them up and
> letting them for holidays (and sometimes they get access to places
> that don't need them to save them, like Hampton Court).  I've always
> wanted to stay in one of these, but unfortunately most of them are
> huge and only affordable if you go as a party of 8 or 10.  A lot of
> the small, cheap ones are follies and gatehouses and the like, and you
> find you have to go outside across the roof to get from the bedroom to
> the bathroom!

Another source of unusual places to stay is vicarages and related
buildings at churches. It seems quite a number of parishes have older
quarters that they rent, B&B style. Keeps the vicars' wives pretty busy,
too, from what one told me when we stayed overnight at a vicarage in, hmm,
around Salisbury I think but I'd have to look it up. She in turn directed
us to the guest quarters at Ely Cathedral. That building is on the
cathedral grounds practically smack up against the cathedral itself
(there's a driveway between). It's where they used to put up travelling
monks. You could still see the ancient Norman (Romanesque) arches in the
walls, on the inside, remnants of the older building that was there first.
We had a fireplace in our bedroom, but the bathroom was down the hall.
Cost no more than any other B&B on our route. This was in September 1990,
and my husband and I were traveling the English countryside by car on the
way back from the Monumental Brass Society's annual meeting. I have no
idea whether they still rent it, but it was truly wonderful.

--Robin

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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20050112180919.15924.qmail@web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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I've heard wonderful reviews of Truly Victorian, and I'm sure that if I ever 
should need a pattern for their eras, I'll buy from them.  In fact, I've 
been thinking of getting one of their bodice patterns, since I hear that 
their fitting system is wonderful for close custom fits.  It seems like it 
would be a great shortcut to use that as a starting point when drafting 
patterns for others!  A few bucks to save hours upon hours upon hours sounds 
like a great deal, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

-E House

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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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You won't be sorry.  That 'couple of extra bucks' is priceless to me.  As I said earlier, I'm broadshouldered (17") and am an A cup AND extremely short-waisted so not an easy fit.  Their patterns make it so :)
 
And they're soooo nice.
 
Chris

E House <formfunc@formfunction.org> wrote:
I've heard wonderful reviews of Truly Victorian, and I'm sure that if I ever 
should need a pattern for their eras, I'll buy from them. In fact, I've 
been thinking of getting one of their bodice patterns, since I hear that 
their fitting system is wonderful for close custom fits. It seems like it 
would be a great shortcut to use that as a starting point when drafting 
patterns for others! A few bucks to save hours upon hours upon hours sounds 
like a great deal, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

-E 

		
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> Does anyone have a source for silk (real silk) faille?

I found some last month at Stone Mountain & Daughter in Berkeley, CA (but they don't have an on-line store).

I bought a bunch of black silk faille from http://fabricmartfabrics.com 3 months ago, but they don't seem to have it at the moment.

With Denver Fabrics I recommend getting swatches before ordering -- not everything they called a faille had ribs...
	Hope that helps,
		-sunny





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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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Oh my goodness - we Must be twins!  
I am definitely going to try at least one, then.
Rowena, Aethelmearc

Chris wrote:

>You won't be sorry.  That 'couple of extra bucks' is priceless to me.  As I said earlier, I'm broadshouldered (17") and am an A cup AND extremely short-waisted so not an easy fit.  Their patterns make it so :)
>
>  
>

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I KNEW I wasn't alone :)  You will be very, very happy with them.  They're also very prompt in shipping your order.  I usually get mine within 4 days of ordering, even if it's on a Friday night.
 
Enjoy!

Home Ec <homeec@telenet.net> wrote:
Oh my goodness - we Must be twins! 
I am definitely going to try at least one, then.
Rowena, Aethelmearc

Chris wrote:

>You won't be sorry. That 'couple of extra bucks' is priceless to me. As I said earlier, I'm broadshouldered (17") and am an A cup AND extremely short-waisted so not an easy fit. Their patterns make it so :)

		
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Jan 12 23:02:12 2005
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I agree about Hampton Court.  It is fabulous and I look forward to going
here again.  I hope they still have the costumes from the BBC series
Elizabeth R on display.  I also plane to visit the V&A, the MOL and the
British Museum.  I only wish there was time to go down to Bath.

Anne

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 3:14 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about Hampton Court (OT)

Hi,
I am green of envy you are going there, the galleries of paintings with 
portraits are to die for. Every time i go and see such a place, i have to go

quickly trough everything, because i know it bores Leif so much. I could 
easy spend a whole day there.............I recall a long gallery with young 
beauties from 1670ies, i dont know if it was the kings mistresses or 
something, beautifull they were. I also got goose skin when i stood in the 
tudor hall, it was very strange........... Dont miss the labyrinth in the 
garden...
I think to remember that the town is called Hampton Court. You  can look 
over to the castle from the railway station.
Oh and the museum shop has got one of the largest collections of early music

i have regretted a lot of times, that i did not buy some of those....

Bjarne



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On Wednesday 12 January 2005 4:10 pm, E House wrote:
> I've heard wonderful reviews of Truly Victorian, and I'm sure that if I
> ever should need a pattern for their eras, I'll buy from them.  In fact, 
> I've been thinking of getting one of their bodice patterns, since I hear
> that their fitting system is wonderful for close custom fits. 

I have made up a basic skirt and overskirt from their patterns.  The garments 
came out fine, and the directions made the process fairly easy.  The only 
bodice of theirs I've made so far was not tightly fitted (yes, one of the 
few) so I cannot say how well their fitting system works for me.  I've heard 
mixed reviews about it from others.

On the plus side, the TV website has a bulletin board on which people can, and 
frequently do, ask Heather for advise on pattern and fitting issues, and on 
which she responds with helpful advice.  The bulletin board list continues to 
grow, and is actually developing a community feel.  I would recommend joining 
it if you have an interest in Victorian (female) costume, particularly for 
the years between 1860 and 1900.

See also the reviews of TV patterns on the Great Pattern Review (with pictures 
of TV patterns as sewn by the reviewers):

http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/tv.htm


--
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
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May you have a wonderful day and many more happy years to come, filled with
making the most gorgeous costumes imaginable.

Nicole
P.S. I thought the list might want to wish our most amazing costumer &
embroiderer a collective happy birthday :-)


	
	
		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
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Hear, Hear.  Have a wonderful birthday.

Jennifer

At 08:27 AM 1/13/05 +0000, you wrote:

>May you have a wonderful day and many more happy years to come, filled with
>making the most gorgeous costumes imaginable.
>
>Nicole


what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?  Anon.


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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net (Elena O'Tighearnaigh)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:49:16 +0000
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May your birthday be as wonderful as you are!  And may your stitches ever be true and beautiful.

--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hear, Hear. Have a wonderful birthday. 
> 
> Jennifer 
> 
> At 08:27 AM 1/13/05 +0000, you wrote: 
> 
> >May you have a wonderful day and many more happy years to come, filled with 
> >making the most gorgeous costumes imaginable. 
> > 
> >Nicole 
> 
> 
> what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? Anon. 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/05 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi Nicole hi all,

Why i must say, thanks a lot for this, oh gosh then i have lived for half a 
century...........
This day i dont do anything unusually, i want to celebrate my birthday 
precisely in 6 months. I have always dreamed of making a picknick to 
"Dyrehaven" wich is an old forrest noth of Copenhagen.
I am sewing as usually today, i must go and shop for cotton bombast i am 
going to make a bumroll for an anglaise dress.  I got such a lovely bouquet 
of flowers from my sister with the delivery in my favourite colours and the 
roses has a lovely smell.
You are always so kind to remember this day Nicole, thanks a 
lot..................
Laughs about my pink dress i make for my niece to the mask ball. It surely 
is shocking pink, it almost heards my eyes when i look at it, i was crazy to 
think that i could have used this for something 
historicall..................



Bjarne




Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Hi
Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for uploading 
files to my website. But i have problems with this program. This is the 
second time it shots down and claims that my trial version has expired, even 
though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
I am pissed off (sorry)
Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more friendly to use?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:10:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Landmark Trust properties (WAS:Question about Hampton
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> It's owned by an organisation called The Landmark Trust.   Their
website 
> is at www.landlmarktrust.org.uk - it will give you some information,
but 
> you have to send for their brochure to actually book.
> 
> The organsiation basically saves old buildings by doing them up and 
> letting them for holidays (and sometimes they get access to  places
that 
> don't need them to save them, like Hampton Court).  I've always wanted

> to stay in one of these, but unfortunately most of them are huge and 
> only affordable if you go as a party of 8 or 10.  A lot of the small, 
> cheap ones are follies and gatehouses and the like, and you find you 
> have to go outside across the roof to get from the bedroom to the 
> bathroom!

A couple of my friends rent a different one for their main holiday each
year so they can invite costumer friends to bring their costumes and do
photoshoots witht he properties as backdrops.  Though he won't wear
costume himself he's a brilliant photographer and designs and makes
costumes for his wife and her friends to model and loves photographing
them (some of the best pictures I have of my costumes were taken by him)

Teddy
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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Ditto!  Happy Birthday :)
 
Chris G.

Elena O'Tighearnaigh <elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net> wrote:
May your birthday be as wonderful as you are! And may your stitches ever be true and beautiful.

--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hear, Hear. Have a wonderful birthday. 
> 
> Jennifer 
> 
> At 08:27 AM 1/13/05 +0000, you wrote: 
> 
> >May you have a wonderful day and many more happy years to come, filled with 
> >making the most gorgeous costumes imaginable. 
> > 
> >Nicole 
> 
> 
> what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? Anon. 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] happy birthday Bjarne
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And another very happy birthday for you today, Bjarne! Enjoy your day today,
then also enjoy your picnic in 6 months!  That is a great idea.
-Megan


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>
> Laughs about my pink dress i make for my niece to the mask ball. It 
> surely is shocking pink, it almost heards my eyes when i look at it, i 
> was crazy to think that i could have used this for something 
> historicall..................
>
Well it will may not be historical but it will be Hystericall :-)
Happy Birthday!
I am looking foreward to see pictures of the dress!

Greetings from Deredere who is right know making a really cute bunny in 
a 1860 orange silk dress

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:04:58 +0000
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Subject: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion - Question
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Hello folks,

Strangely enough (my being a cataloguer of medical and health books)
this quation comes through a work source.  Passed on to me by a
colleague in a different department.

Anyhow, we've had an enquiry about sources (books , magazines, websites)
relating to the history of women's equestrian fashion.  Also, any places
to look for information about the *current* fashions in this area?

Many thanks in advance

Teddy
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And yet another 'Happy Birthday' from yet another admirer on the other side of The Pond!


Karen
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At 14:04 13/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:

>Hello folks,
>
>Strangely enough (my being a cataloguer of medical and health books)
>this quation comes through a work source.  Passed on to me by a
>colleague in a different department.
>
>Anyhow, we've had an enquiry about sources (books , magazines, websites)
>relating to the history of women's equestrian fashion.  Also, any places
>to look for information about the *current* fashions in this area?


Some images here http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/timeline.php?dt=1870

I also have some original "Punch " cartoons of women in the 1860s on 
horseback and off!! I also have a fashion plate from "Englishwoman's 
Domestic Magazine" 1860, which I can send. I thought it was on my fashion 
plate site, but I cannot find it, and the programme tells me it is there 
and I cannot resend!!

The is a "Sidesaddle" Association or similar, but I don't have an address.

Suzi


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] 1780ies stays
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Jubii, my ftp server worked again. I got support from the company.
Well i have uploaded pictures of the 1780 stays in Norah Waughs Corsets and 
Crinolines.
I used Wissners 4 mm. boning for these stays, just like the origina. It is a 
very lightly boned corset, but i think it will support well for my niece.
Also i uploaded a picture of the lace i have reconstrukted after Fashion in 
Detail page 93, the sleave with the beautifull chenille embroidery. My lace 
is slightly bigger, i cant make such a tiny lace as the original, would take 
two long, and also would be very difficult to get thread for this.
All the lace is made in silk thread, included the chenille gimp.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/late
Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [other] [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion - Question
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Much of this will depend on the discipline the person is riding in and 
whether or not they are competing.  Even within the dressage discipline 
some events (working horse-which is relatively new) wear the traditional 
gear you work in).  Some wear a Spanish style etc.  Otherwise, dressage 
is very specific as to what you can wear if you are competing.   Within 
the "western" & "English"disciplines, garb and gear vary a great deal 
depending on what you are doing.   Is this person specifically 
interested in sidesaddle?

Sg

>>   Also, any places
>> to look for information about the *current* fashions in this area?
>
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
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Happy Birthday, Bjarne! And many more! :D


Arlys
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Whoops, forgot this part:  http://www.sidesaddleinfo.com/attire.html

Wicked Frau wrote:

> Much of this will depend on the discipline the person is riding in and 
> whether or not they are competing.  Even within the dressage 
> discipline some events (working horse-which is relatively new) wear 
> the traditional gear you work in).  Some wear a Spanish style etc.  
> Otherwise, dressage is very specific as to what you can wear if you 
> are competing.   Within the "western" & "English"disciplines, garb and 
> gear vary a great deal depending on what you are doing.   Is this 
> person specifically interested in sidesaddle?
>
> Sg
>
>>>   Also, any places
>>> to look for information about the *current* fashions in this area?
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: FTP program off topic.
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Status: RO

Hi Bjarne,

I hate to see you waste money on the CuteFTP, so have you tried
contacting their support staff?

If you still want to try another FTP program, I use WS_FTP both at
home and at work.  They used to have a free version, but now it's
$35.

I also have recently had to use WinSCP for an online class that I
took.  It was either free:
<http://winscp.sourceforge.net/eng/download.php>

Here's a page of FTP programs w/ reviews, prices, and downloads:
<http://www.download.com/FTP/3150-2160_4-0.html?tag=stbc.gp>

Good luck and Happy Birthday!
~mary

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:56:19 +0100
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> Subject: [h-cost] FTP program off topic.
> 
> Hi
> Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for
> uploading 
> files to my website. But i have problems with this program. This is
> the 
> second time it shots down and claims that my trial version has
> expired, even 
> though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
> I am pissed off (sorry)
> Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more
> friendly to use?
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 


=====
"Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked."
~ Jane Austen

"Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've forgotten this before."      ~ Steven Wright
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From: "Jennifer / Guenievre" <generys@blazemail.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: FTP program off topic.
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:00:45 -0500
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I use Firefox as a browser, and there's a free extension  - FireFTP - that
makes it a FTP program as well.  You might want to look into that...

Guenievre

> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
> Behalf Of Mary
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:54 AM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: FTP program off topic.
> 
> Hi Bjarne,
> 
> I hate to see you waste money on the CuteFTP, so have you tried
> contacting their support staff?
> 
> If you still want to try another FTP program, I use WS_FTP both at
> home and at work.  They used to have a free version, but now it's
> $35.
> 
> I also have recently had to use WinSCP for an online class that I
> took.  It was either free:
> <http://winscp.sourceforge.net/eng/download.php>
> 
> Here's a page of FTP programs w/ reviews, prices, and downloads:
> <http://www.download.com/FTP/3150-2160_4-0.html?tag=stbc.gp>
> 
> Good luck and Happy Birthday!
> ~mary
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:56:19 +0100
> > From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> > Subject: [h-cost] FTP program off topic.
> >
> > Hi
> > Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for
> > uploading
> > files to my website. But i have problems with this program. This is
> > the
> > second time it shots down and claims that my trial version has
> > expired, even
> > though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
> > I am pissed off (sorry)
> > Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more
> > friendly to use?
> >
> > Bjarne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> =====
> "Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked."
> ~ Jane Austen
> 
> "Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've
> forgotten this before."      ~ Steven Wright
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Birthday Bjarne!
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Have a lovely lacy birthday - now *and* six months from now,
Linda Walton.
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I agree with Mary...this is the most straight forward FTP program I have 
used. 


>  
>
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> Hi
> Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for 
> uploading 
> files to my website. But i have problems with this program. This is 
> the 
> second time it shots down and claims that my trial version has 
> expired, even 
> though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
> I am pissed off (sorry)
> Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more friendly 
> to use?

Hi Bjarne,

I haven't used it a lot, but I got CoffeeCup FTP based on C-Net
recommendations and it's worked for me.  http://www.coffeecup.com . 
However, there's not much of a help feature with it, so you need to know
a bit about FTP to use it.

Leah
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion - Question
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This may or may not help you, but last summer I was at the (US) Arabian
National Competition in Albuquerque, and there were some really spiff
outfits in the "English Pleasure" class. A lady near me was happy about
being able to buy a 2nd-hand (i.e. previously worn) ensemble for $1800.
Woot! Now there's a market to get into.. Betsy

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Teddy
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 8:05 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion - Question


Hello folks,

Strangely enough (my being a cataloguer of medical and health books)
this quation comes through a work source.  Passed on to me by a
colleague in a different department.

Anyhow, we've had an enquiry about sources (books , magazines, websites)
relating to the history of women's equestrian fashion.  Also, any places
to look for information about the *current* fashions in this area?

Many thanks in advance

Teddy
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re:  [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion - Question.
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Hi Suzi

> Some images here 
> http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/timeline.php?dt=1870

Thanks
 
> I also have some original "Punch " cartoons of women in the 1860s on 
> horseback and off!! I also have a fashion plate from "Englishwoman's 
> Domestic Magazine" 1860, which I can send. I thought it was on my
fashion 
> plate site, but I cannot find it, and the programme tells me it is
there 
> and I cannot resend!!

I think this situation needs a compilable list of websites/books/zines
etc that can be given to this person so they can take it away and do
their research, rather than specific pictures to forward to them (I have
no direct contact with the person, just details of their enquiry)

Thanks anyway.
 
> The is a "Sidesaddle" Association or similar, but I don't 
> have an address.

Perhaps someone else wil come up with it.

Thanks again.

Teddy
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion -
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> Much of this will depend on the discipline the person is riding in and
whether or not they are competing.  Even within the dressage discipline 
> some events (working horse-which is relatively new) wear the
traditional 
> gear you work in).  Some wear a Spanish style etc.  Otherwise,
dressage 
> is very specific as to what you can wear if you are competing.
Within 
> the "western" & "English"disciplines, garb and gear vary a great deal 
> depending on what you are doing.   Is this person specifically 
> interested in sidesaddle?

She just said "equestrian"  I assume  it's ANY equestrian clothing since
she didn't specify and its for "a dissertaion based on a business plan
for a new range of equine clothing for women"

Teddy
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Happy Birthday, Bjarne, and many more!
Michelle
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Dear Bjarne--

Joining the chorus of "Happy Birthday" from Connecticut....

Fifty is a great accomplishment. When my carasse (to use a Kurt Vonnegut word) turned fifty back in '98 (the first of the Baby Boomers in the U.S.) we defied American tradition! Instead of pretending NOT to be fifty, or taking it as a sign of getting old, we celebrated as much as possible! One weekend I got together with some old friends from college and had a collective birthday party/pajama party; I bought myself several trips to the theater in New York; I had a party of my own with my truelove; there was a family party. I knew a few people who celebrated once a week for the whole year!

If you're sewing today, that's an appropriate celebration of the artistic side of your life. Enjoy the big celebration you're planning for six months from now. Consider the Masqued Ball a party for yourself too! Your work and your kindness bring so much pleasure to so many people, you deserve to be celebrated.

So Bravo! high day! I haven't sent you real flowers, but if you will IMAGINE a bouquet of fifty peonies, that will be from me.

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion -
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Hmm. If they are in competition/showing, I got the feeling that the
requirements are very precise, down to the "hair bun must be in a net,
(Hairpieces allowed for Short hair)"
Let me do a quick google..


again- http://www.sidesaddleinfo.com/attire.html
check out the attire sections

http://www.arabianhorsefair.com/GoverningRules/generalrules.htm
skip down to "Equipment"

www.equestrian.org  maybe?

Hoping to help- Betsy

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Teddy
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:46 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: RE: [h-cost] history of womens equestrian fashion -


> Much of this will depend on the discipline the person is riding in and
whether or not they are competing.  Even within the dressage discipline 
> some events (working horse-which is relatively new) wear the
traditional 
> gear you work in).  Some wear a Spanish style etc.  Otherwise,
dressage 
> is very specific as to what you can wear if you are competing.
Within 
> the "western" & "English"disciplines, garb and gear vary a great deal 
> depending on what you are doing.   Is this person specifically 
> interested in sidesaddle?

She just said "equestrian"  I assume  it's ANY equestrian clothing since
she didn't specify and its for "a dissertaion based on a business plan
for a new range of equine clothing for women"

Teddy
_______________________________________________
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	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:35:09 PST
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:35:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Mia Dappert <snappylunch_2001@yahoo.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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Happy Birthday.  May this next year provide you with many fine opportunities to set your fine stitches.  

Mia in Charlotte, NC


		
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 13 12:38:24 2005
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This sounds like a worthy thing to try.  I have used firefox for quite 
some time now and their mail tool thunderbird and have been very happy 
with them.  They are all free!  All these elements can be gotten through 
http://www.mozilla.org/
(I have tried the calendar feature and not liked it much....)

Sg

Jennifer / Guenievre wrote:

>I use Firefox as a browser, and there's a free extension  - FireFTP - that
>makes it a FTP program as well.  You might want to look into that...
>
>Guenievre
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
>>Behalf Of Mary
>>Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:54 AM
>>To: h-costume@indra.com
>>Subject: [h-cost] Re: FTP program off topic.
>>
>>Hi Bjarne,
>>
>>I hate to see you waste money on the CuteFTP, so have you tried
>>contacting their support staff?
>>
>>If you still want to try another FTP program, I use WS_FTP both at
>>home and at work.  They used to have a free version, but now it's
>>$35.
>>
>>I also have recently had to use WinSCP for an online class that I
>>took.  It was either free:
>><http://winscp.sourceforge.net/eng/download.php>
>>
>>Here's a page of FTP programs w/ reviews, prices, and downloads:
>><http://www.download.com/FTP/3150-2160_4-0.html?tag=stbc.gp>
>>
>>Good luck and Happy Birthday!
>>~mary
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:56:19 +0100
>>>From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
>>>Subject: [h-cost] FTP program off topic.
>>>
>>>Hi
>>>Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for
>>>uploading
>>>files to my website. But i have problems with this program. This is
>>>the
>>>second time it shots down and claims that my trial version has
>>>expired, even
>>>though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
>>>I am pissed off (sorry)
>>>Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more
>>>friendly to use?
>>>
>>>Bjarne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Leif og Bjarne Drews
>>>www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>>>
>>>http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>=====
>>"Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked."
>>~ Jane Austen
>>
>>"Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've
>>forgotten this before."      ~ Steven Wright
>>_______________________________________________
>>h-costume mailing list
>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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>
>  
>
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all your greetings, it wasnt intended that you should know 
about this, but well.........
I am very pleased for all your wishes.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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In a message dated 1/13/2005 11:43:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes:

that can  be given to this person so they can take it away and do
their  research


Here is the Library of Congress info for the catalogue from the "Man and  the 
Horse" exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum.
Ann Wass
 
Personal Name:      Mackay-Smith, Alexander.

Main  Title:         Man and the horse : an illustrated  history of equestrian
apparel / Alexander Mackay-Smith, Jean R.  Druesedow,
Thomas Ryder.

Published/Created:  New York :  Metropolitan Museum of Art : Simon and
Schuster, 1984.

Related  Names:      Druesedow, Jean R.
Ryder, Thomas.
Costume Institute (New York,  N.Y.)

Description:        127 p. : ill. (some col.) ;  29 cm.

ISBN:                0870994115 :
0671555200 (Simon and Schuster) :

Notes:       "Published in connection with an exhibition at the  Costume
Institute of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York,
from December 3,  1984, through September 1, 1985"--T.p.
verso.

Subjects:     Horsemen and horsewomen--Costume.
Horsemanship--Equipment  and supplies.
Riding habit.

LC Classification:  GT5885 .M33  1984

Dewey Class No.:    391/.0088798  19


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I'm wondering if anyone can help me.  I need a high necked doublet of some sort as rapier armour.  I'm fully aware of the many late 16th century women's doublets, but my persona is living in Paris in 1630-1635.  So far I haven't found any sign of high necked bodices in this time period.  Am I just not looking in the right places or am I going to have to time travel to make my rapier armour?  I have made something very similar to a man's doublet for this time that I have been using, but would really like to have something correct for a woman if something high-necked exists.

thanks,

Melusine d'Argent

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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Even though Victorian is WAAYYY to modern for my costumes, I think I might get this pattern for the fitting help.

I am 5'5", 120lbs, a 36 B chest, 30" waist, 38" around the largest point of my hip/ bum, broadshouldered (17 1/2"), long armed, long torsoed, and short rise.

Maybe this will help me make a properly fitted 'muslin'??

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
> You won't be sorry.  That 'couple of extra bucks' is priceless to 
> me.  As I said earlier, I'm broadshouldered (17") and am an A cup 
> AND extremely short-waisted so not an easy fit.  Their patterns 
> make it so :) 
> Chris

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From: Melissa Brown Muckart <gold@where.else.net.nz>
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Bjarne,

Have you tried FileZilla? I use it and have no problems whatsoever. I 
don't know the URL but if you Google for it, you should find it no problem.

Alternatively, you can write to customer service at CuteFTP2 and see if 
they will help you.

Good luck!

Melissa

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Hi
> Could someone help me? I have purchased CuteFTP6 Proffesional for 
> uploading files to my website. But i have problems with this program. 
> This is the second time it shots down and claims that my trial version 
> has expired, even though i have baught use of it for 2 years.
> I am pissed off (sorry)
> Does any have any other programmes wich are better and more friendly to 
> use?
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> 
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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:38:47 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
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At 12:33 13/01/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm wondering if anyone can help me.  I need a high necked doublet of some 
>sort as rapier armour.  I'm fully aware of the many late 16th century 
>women's doublets, but my persona is living in Paris in 1630-1635.  So far 
>I haven't found any sign of high necked bodices in this time period.  Am I 
>just not looking in the right places or am I going to have to time travel 
>to make my rapier armour?  I have made something very similar to a man's 
>doublet for this time that I have been using, but would really like to 
>have something correct for a woman if something high-necked exists.


Have you looked at the patterns in "Cut of Women's Clothes" by Norah 
Waugh.? There are a couple of high necked bodices there, about 1610. Also 
there are a lot of embroidered jackets from that period, mostly domestic in 
wear, but you could adapt the pattern for your doublet. Look at "Margaret 
Layton + Jacket" on a search - it is in the collection at the V and A.

Suzi



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> At 12:33 13/01/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>>I'm wondering if anyone can help me.  I need a high necked doublet of some 
>>sort as rapier armour. (snip)>
> Have you looked at the patterns in "Cut of Women's Clothes" by Norah 
> Waugh.? There are a couple of high necked bodices there, about 1610. Also 
> there are a lot of embroidered jackets from that period, mostly domestic 
> in wear, but you could adapt the pattern for your doublet. Look at 
> "Margaret Layton + Jacket" on a search - it is in the collection at the V 
> and A.
>
> Suzi

I've looked at those, but there was a real change in styles about 1620, and 
I'm  tryiing to find something  on the later side of that date if possible.

Thank you, though, I've been looking for a better picture of that jacket 
than I currently have, for another project.

Melusine 

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Many happy returns of the day!

Gail Finke

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bustle period patterns
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Get on their website and check out what they have. They have patterns
from as early as the 1830s, maybe earlier (not my interest so I've
ignored them).

trulyvictorian.com

LynnD
trying to get used to my new mail program


On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:05:24 -0500, purplkat@optonline.net
<purplkat@optonline.net> wrote:
> Even though Victorian is WAAYYY to modern for my costumes, I think I might get this pattern for the fitting help.
> 
> I am 5'5", 120lbs, a 36 B chest, 30" waist, 38" around the largest point of my hip/ bum, broadshouldered (17 1/2"), long armed, long torsoed, and short rise.
> 
> Maybe this will help me make a properly fitted 'muslin'??
> 
> Katheryne
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
> > You won't be sorry.  That 'couple of extra bucks' is priceless to
> > me.  As I said earlier, I'm broadshouldered (17") and am an A cup
> > AND extremely short-waisted so not an easy fit.  Their patterns
> > make it so :)
> > Chris
> 
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In a message dated 1/13/2005 4:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
moreplentyn@earthlink.net writes:

> I've looked at those, but there was a real change in styles about 1620, and 
> 
> I'm  tryiing to find something  on the later side of that date if possible.
> 
> 

Check out English sources. Isn''t Cromwell in charge about the time you want? 
He's like 1650s I think. There should be some closed up Puritanical jackets 
for women then.
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1780ies stays
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On Thursday 13 January 2005 9:55 am, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
[snip]
> Also i uploaded a picture of the lace i have reconstrukted after Fashion in
> Detail page 93, the sleave with the beautifull chenille embroidery. My lace
> is slightly bigger, i cant make such a tiny lace as the original, would
> take two long, and also would be very difficult to get thread for this. All
> the lace is made in silk thread, included the chenille gimp.

You *made* that lace?  Wow.  I'm really impressed, Bjarne, it's stunningly 
beautiful.

By the way, Happy Birthday!

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, etc.
with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to paint
it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint would
hold up to the weather and washing.  

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

Roscelin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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At 02:21 AM 1/14/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, etc.
>with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
>do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to 
>paint
>it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint would
>hold up to the weather and washing.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
>
>Roscelin


Hi Roscelin,

I made Tudor Roses for a friend years ago (mid nineties?), and painted them 
using basic acrylic craft paints. It was when fabric paints as we know them 
now were very new and expensive compared to basic paints, so I didn't use 
them. I did coat them with spray sealer to protect the paint.

My friend didn't wash the TRs, just wiped them down every now and again. 
She would pin the TRs to banners or table covers to liven up our QE1 court. 
I used a gesso first on the unwashed canvas, as washed canvas came out too 
limp. Gesso (or even one coat of basic white acrylic) helps the colored 
paints to adhere to the canvas better. My friend still used the TRs a few 
years ago when I visited her court at San Bernadino, which made me happy to 
see them still going strong then. I don't know if they are still surviving.

I have recently used fabric paints, and love them for clothing. They are 
washable, and hold up well to regular fabric washings. They also do not 
make the fabric any stiffer than they already are. I know basic acrylic 
paints can crack and peel if washed, as an old shirt I did in high school 
drama did that in just a few months of washings (way before fabric paints).

My suggestion is to use either method, depending on how much you must wash 
the underlying fabric, how soft that fabric is normally, and if it matters 
if you need the paint to remain soft and pliable, or not. I am working on a 
family banner for next faire season, and we are using gessoed canvas and 
craft acrylics again, because the banners need to survive outside, be 
stiff, and not need any washings. Your choice may be different.

Good luck!

Kimiko



Kimiko Small

"Lady of the Wardrobe" for Isle of Mann Guild
Regional CIRGA Ambassador: Central Valley

Portraying at California's Central Valley Renaissance Faires
Margaret Percy, Eleanor Brandon, or Margaret Russell
     Lady Clifford, Countess of Cumberland

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint


> At 02:21 AM 1/14/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>>I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, 
>>etc.
>>with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique 
>>or
>>do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to 
>>paint
>>it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint 
>>would
>>hold up to the weather and washing.
>>
>>Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
>>
>>Roscelin

Around here we've had great luck using a polyester fabric called Silkessence 
and regular acrylic craft paint, the kind that come in little bottles, for 
banners.  It holds up just fine.  I have friends who have banners done this 
way, and they're still looking good after 15+ years.  Our group's 
tableclothes are painted with fabric paint and they're looking pretty good 
still. I think they're about 10 years old.

Melusine 

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:37:59 +0100
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Hi
My 2 cents, i looked trough my costume books and could not find any, but 
recently i watched Molly Sweney on video tape. It starts in the restauration 
period and ends in the late 17th century. You can se how the fashion 
changes, and i think there are some jackets/ doublets two.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet


> In a message dated 1/13/2005 4:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> moreplentyn@earthlink.net writes:
>
>> I've looked at those, but there was a real change in styles about 1620, 
>> and
>>
>> I'm  tryiing to find something  on the later side of that date if 
>> possible.
>>
>>
>
> Check out English sources. Isn''t Cromwell in charge about the time you 
> want?
> He's like 1650s I think. There should be some closed up Puritanical 
> jackets
> for women then.
> _______________________________________________
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> 


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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
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Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> AlbertCat@aol.com 14/01/2005 01:18:03 >>> wrote:

>Check out English sources. Isn''t Cromwell in charge about the time
you want? 
>He's like 1650s I think. There should be some closed up Puritanical
jackets 
>for women then.

Melusine asked for 1630s, which was very much the heyday of Charles  I.
I've been looking for a decent reproduction on the Internet of Mytens'
painting "Charles I and Henrietta Maria departing for the chase" which
should show ladies' riding costume, but without success. Wouldn't they
in fact have worn something similar to the male doublet?

_______________________________________________

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint


> At 02:21 AM 1/14/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>>I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, 
>>etc.
>>with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique 
>>or
>>do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to 
>>paint
>>it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint 
>>would
>>hold up to the weather and washing.
>>
>>Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
>>
>>Roscelin
 Guild
> Regional CIRGA Ambassador: Central Valley
>

I make banners and floor cloths out of plain white canvas, which is given a 
background coat of cheap white outdoor latex paint. I then paint on the 
design, and cover the whole thing with several layers of clear acrylic. The 
back gets one coat of the white latex, and at least two coats of the clear 
acrylic.
They just wipe clean. And these are floorcloths that are getting used 
outside, in early spring, in the Northeast, so yeah, they take plenty of 
abuse!

Dianne 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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Most of you probably know that you'll want to avoid the cute 
"dimensional" fabric paints sold in the little squeeze bottles.  These 
don't stand up well by comparison to real fabric paint.

I enjoy using those, but only on sweatshirts, etc.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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> Hmm. If they are in competition/showing, I got the feeling 
> that the requirements are very precise, down to the "hair bun 
> must be in a net, (Hairpieces allowed for Short hair)" Let me 
> do a quick google..
> 
> 
> again- http://www.sidesaddleinfo.com/attire.html
> check out the attire sections
> 
> http://www.arabianhorsefair.com/GoverningRules/generalrules.htm
> skip down to "Equipment"
> 
> www.equestrian.org  maybe?
> 
> Hoping to help- Betsy

Many thanks!

Teddy
 
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> Here is the Library of Congress info for the catalogue from 
> the "Man and  the 
> Horse" exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum.
> Ann Wass

Great! Thanks

Teddy
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:32:37 -0500
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There are two nice jackets of the period in the latest issue of "Piecework"
magazine. Wile embroidered, I think one would call them 'doublets'.

Kathleen

PS

The issue is 'keeping warm'; there are other articles that should be of
interest to h-costume topics..
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet


> At 12:33 13/01/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I'm wondering if anyone can help me.  I need a high necked doublet of
some
> >sort as rapier armour.  I'm fully aware of the many late 16th century
> >women's doublets, but my persona is living in Paris in 1630-1635.  So far
> >I haven't found any sign of high necked bodices in this time period.  Am
I
> >just not looking in the right places or am I going to have to time travel
> >to make my rapier armour?  I have made something very similar to a man's
> >doublet for this time that I have been using, but would really like to
> >have something correct for a woman if something high-necked exists.
>
>
> Have you looked at the patterns in "Cut of Women's Clothes" by Norah
> Waugh.? There are a couple of high necked bodices there, about 1610. Also
> there are a lot of embroidered jackets from that period, mostly domestic
in
> wear, but you could adapt the pattern for your doublet. Look at "Margaret
> Layton + Jacket" on a search - it is in the collection at the V and A.
>
> Suzi
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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For the record, yesterday I received my complete packet of silk samples available from Dharma.  WOW. I wanted to try a silk shoulder cover I had seen in Boston, but couldn't make up my mind about the weight of fabric.
Now I have a myriad of projects scuttling about my brain. Their silk velvet is 18/82 silk and rayon and can be used for the Devore technique. The stretch Charmeuse is 95/5 silk and spandex.  There are about 6 sheer weaves and weights to choose from.... and the beat goes on.

Now for the dyes and paints!
Kathleen
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
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Writing in relative ignorance:

Browsing through the line drawings in Gorsline's "What People Wore," I see men's doublets dated 1629 and 1632 and a doublet-like bodice on an undated "Flemish lady" among drawings 1625-1634 (these are pp. 74-76 in the 1994 Dover) that would suggest you might be on safe ground with McCall's 4695 (men's doublets) and Butterick 4375 (woman's gown). That is if you're looking for a commercial pattern to adapt. I know you're beyond needing that, but...my two cents' worth.

Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

-
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Subject: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
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I've done Victorian, Medieval, and renaissance, but never 18c until now,
and I'd appreciate some help from those who know. We all know what it's
like to be starting out on unfamiliar territory.
 
The date for the event is a 1780 ball. 
1.	My husband is a 6'6" weightlifter and we both think he'd look a
little silly in one of those skinny, ultra-tight coats that were coming
into vogue then. He'd much rather wear a fuller cut 1750-1760-ish coat.
Can a middle-class American colonist get away with being 20-30 years
behind the height of fashion?
2.	On a robe polonaise, it appears that there are no panniers under
there, but there's still a noticeable bouffant effect. How is this
accomplished? Lots of petticoats? Stiff fabric? Bumroll? Link
<http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/pcd/85263202/high/4578-039.jpg>
to photo of dress. I realize that the dress has been modified in the
19th century, but it's a good illustration of the silhouette.
3.	Does anyone have recommendations for patterns, including
underclothes? 
4.	What trimming would be appropriate on a man's dress coat for the
period? I've seen gorgeous embroideries in the Kyoto Institute Fashion
book, but sadly I am not quite that talented.
5.	Any other warnings, hints, tips etc.
 
Thanks very much. I appreciate the assistance.
 
Sandra
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Jan 14 10:59:10 2005
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From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fabric paint
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:58:07 -0600
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I made a banner of our coat of arms for our Guilde two years ago and used
fabric paint in a stencil to make the background for it (vail I think? It
was a light blue shield shape). I used a stencil paint which said it was for
fabric as well? Anyhow, it was in a small jar and more of a solid than
liquid. IIRC, once it was dried for 24 hours you set it with an iron, and
then had to wait a week before laundering. It has stood up great so far!


*******************************************************************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
Bristol Renaissance Faire
 
My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash
*******************************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of roscelin
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 8:21 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Fabric paint

I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth,
etc.
with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to
paint it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the
paint would hold up to the weather and washing.  

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

Roscelin

-------------------
http://www.pcez.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Olsen <sandraleigh@abraxis.com>
>...
>The date for the event is a 1780 ball. 
>1.	My husband is a 6'6" weightlifter and we both think he'd look a
>little silly in one of those skinny, ultra-tight coats that were coming
>into vogue then. He'd much rather wear a fuller cut 1750-1760-ish coat.
>Can a middle-class American colonist get away with being 20-30 years
>behind the height of fashion?....

When I costumed a production of THE RIVALS (1775), I put Sir Lucius O'Trigger in the fuller-cut coat, reasoning that just as he was a stickler for the traditional rules of the duel, and an IRISH gentleman, he would cling to the fashion of his younger days, in which he presumably continued to find himself a dashing figure, and demand that his tailor comply. Certainly he felt that wooing a 17-year-old girl was appropriate for him although Mrs. Malaprop seems to have considered herself the fitting match, so I guessed that in his own view he hadn't changed in twenty or thirty years.

As far as I can see, fashion change is a process over time (although sometimes a short time, particularly when a monarch or pop star takes up a particular "look"), and there are always a few avant-garde and plenty of die-hards bracketing the process. As a costumer (rather than a clothing historian) I'd think giving your husband the same garb philosophy as I gave Sir Lucius, or an attitude of being set in his ways, would be not merely acceptable but even a choice of substance.

Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
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At 10:46 14/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>I've done Victorian, Medieval, and renaissance, but never 18c until now,
>and I'd appreciate some help from those who know. We all know what it's
>like to be starting out on unfamiliar territory.
>
>The date for the event is a 1780 ball.
>1.      My husband is a 6'6" weightlifter and we both think he'd look a
>little silly in one of those skinny, ultra-tight coats that were coming
>into vogue then. He'd much rather wear a fuller cut 1750-1760-ish coat.
>Can a middle-class American colonist get away with being 20-30 years
>behind the height of fashion?
>2.      On a robe polonaise, it appears that there are no panniers under
>there, but there's still a noticeable bouffant effect. How is this
>accomplished? Lots of petticoats? Stiff fabric? Bumroll? Link
><http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/pcd/85263202/high/4578-039.jpg>

This printed cotton dress has a bum roll underneath in all probability. 
There is a cartoon by Cruickshank which shows this kind of shape. You could 
also use a small pair of pocket hoops.


>3.      Does anyone have recommendations for patterns, including
>underclothes?

You can find all the patterns you need in "Period Costume for Stage and 
Screen 1500-1800" by Jean Hunnisett if you can use and enlarge grid 
patterns. The title is misleading. Jean researched real clothes before 
making the patterns, which are all based on original garments, but adjusted 
to make them fit modern bodies, which are different. For the corset, there 
are several that would be suitable in "Corsets and Crinolines" by Norah 
Waugh, where you would also find pocket hoops.

>4.      What trimming would be appropriate on a man's dress coat for the
>period? I've seen gorgeous embroideries in the Kyoto Institute Fashion
>book, but sadly I am not quite that talented.
>5.      Any other warnings, hints, tips etc.


Tiny tip - if you are attaching a bodice to a skirt, make the bodice a 
fraction short - the weight of the skirt will hold it down, and the back 
will not wrinkle as it sits on the waistband of the petticoat, underskirt, 
pocket hoops etc, all of which push the waist of the dress up.

Suzi, who makes *lots* of this era.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
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In a message dated 1/14/2005 11:20:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ruthanneb@mindspring.com writes:

> As a costumer (rather than a clothing historian) I'd think giving your 
> husband the same garb philosophy as I gave Sir Lucius, or an attitude of being 
> set in his ways, would be not merely acceptable but even a choice of substance.
> 
> 

I agree.

But if your husband has major pecs and a small waist he will look great in 
those narrow coats. A pigeon breast and sway back is the fashion for men then. 
In the period they even pad the breast a bit and, even though the coat is 
covered with buttons and button holes, only like 2 button holes will be cut...at 
the curve of the breast. Or none...with a hook and eye at the curve. Just don't 
make it TOO narrow.

Keep it kinda equestrian in feel...some leather maybe [collar and cuffs] and 
riding boots and he'll be a HUNK!
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Hi Sandra,
Off cause your husband could come in an oldfashioned jacket. Have you not 
seen some of the Austen movies?
Several of the gentlemen wears old fashions and i think it is very 
authentic.
In a small place like Denmark, people from the province was way behind 
fashion sometimes years.
You could make your husbands jacket plain, without any decoration at all, 
this is very nice also, and was also very much used. Only the buttonholes 
and the buttons for decoration.
About your underwear, i am making right now underwear for an anglaise dress. 
I think i have hit the right shape for my type of anglaise dress. Bumrolls 
came in various shapes and sizes, there was not uniform in those. It 
depended of your taste and mind.
I made the bumroll of a square piece of material, bias cut and folded. In 
each end i have made 2 darts. Then i have only lightly stuffed the "roll" 
and i have made it about 35cm deep. It is nearly nothing in the front, but 
curves out in the sides and is biggest in the back. My bodice has a long v 
in the back, and the v is supposed to rest on the bumroll in the back.
If you will be patience, ill post some pictures later. For the corset i have 
made the 1780ies one in Norah Waughs book. This you can se here:
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/late
If you want a commercial pattern, i would recomend to use the butterick 
pattern of late 1700 stays, this is very near the real one i have remade.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sandra Olsen" <sandraleigh@abraxis.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help


> I've done Victorian, Medieval, and renaissance, but never 18c until now,
> and I'd appreciate some help from those who know. We all know what it's
> like to be starting out on unfamiliar territory.
>
> The date for the event is a 1780 ball.
> 1. My husband is a 6'6" weightlifter and we both think he'd look a
> little silly in one of those skinny, ultra-tight coats that were coming
> into vogue then. He'd much rather wear a fuller cut 1750-1760-ish coat.
> Can a middle-class American colonist get away with being 20-30 years
> behind the height of fashion?
> 2. On a robe polonaise, it appears that there are no panniers under
> there, but there's still a noticeable bouffant effect. How is this
> accomplished? Lots of petticoats? Stiff fabric? Bumroll? Link
> <http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/pcd/85263202/high/4578-039.jpg>
> to photo of dress. I realize that the dress has been modified in the
> 19th century, but it's a good illustration of the silhouette.
> 3. Does anyone have recommendations for patterns, including
> underclothes?
> 4. What trimming would be appropriate on a man's dress coat for the
> period? I've seen gorgeous embroideries in the Kyoto Institute Fashion
> book, but sadly I am not quite that talented.
> 5. Any other warnings, hints, tips etc.
>
> Thanks very much. I appreciate the assistance.
>
> Sandra
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 26
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> Even though Victorian is WAAYYY to modern for my costumes, I think I
might
> get this pattern for the fitting help.
> 
> I am 5'5", 120lbs, a 36 B chest, 30" waist, 38" around the largest
point
> of my hip/ bum, broadshouldered (17 1/2"), long armed, long torsoed,
and
> short rise.
> 
> Maybe this will help me make a properly fitted 'muslin'??

I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're doing the Victorian-esque
curvy-corseted fashions, rather then the Tudor tubular-corseted
fashions. 

Sorry, I'm not being comprehensible -- what I'm trying to get at is that
Victorian corsetry was going for a very different shape from the
Elizabethan-1780 corsetry whose emphasis tended to be more
cylindrical/flat front (either flattening the bust or pushing it up).
Victorian corsetry tended to emphasize the waist-hips-bust/shoulder
differentials. I wouldn't try to adapt these patterns unless you're
starting from a Victorian style corset shape because there would be way
more tweaking then it would be worth to adapt the pattern(s) to an
earlier corset shape.

Just to throw my 2 cents into the earlier discussion -- I too have used
and loved the TV patterns! :-)
	-sunny


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And I concur.  I was forced to do this on the fly in December and the
results was WayBad! And I was only trying to put a dress 150 years advanced
on such a corset (Ren.).  Trying to do this with an additional 100 advance
again would be difficult and silly, indeed. If the occasion arises again, I
will certainly insist the model wear the proper corset for the period.

 If the undergarment is an incidental, I might suggest you check out the
'Romantic" model at Frederick's of Hollywood.  Depending on what you want
the corset to 'do', it at least is close in construction to the antiques of
the last quarter of the 19th C.  Be sure not to look at their' merry widows'
as this shaping will not be seen until almost the 1950's and would be as bad
for the time period as the 17th and 18th C modes.

You haven't mentioned your project time structure. (When is the event?)  Do
you have the time to approach your design from the inside, out?

Kathleen
Original Message ----- 
From: <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:37 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 26


>
> > Even though Victorian is WAAYYY to modern for my costumes, I think I
> might
> > get this pattern for the fitting help.
> >
> > I am 5'5", 120lbs, a 36 B chest, 30" waist, 38" around the largest
> point
> > of my hip/ bum, broadshouldered (17 1/2"), long armed, long torsoed,
> and
> > short rise.
> >
> > Maybe this will help me make a properly fitted 'muslin'??
>
> I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're doing the Victorian-esque
> curvy-corseted fashions, rather then the Tudor tubular-corseted
> fashions.
>
> Sorry, I'm not being comprehensible -- what I'm trying to get at is that
> Victorian corsetry was going for a very different shape from the
> Elizabethan-1780 corsetry whose emphasis tended to be more
> cylindrical/flat front (either flattening the bust or pushing it up).
> Victorian corsetry tended to emphasize the waist-hips-bust/shoulder
> differentials. I wouldn't try to adapt these patterns unless you're
> starting from a Victorian style corset shape because there would be way
> more tweaking then it would be worth to adapt the pattern(s) to an
> earlier corset shape.
>
> Just to throw my 2 cents into the earlier discussion -- I too have used
> and loved the TV patterns! :-)
> -sunny
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fabric paint
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:43:57 -0600
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I do not know of your research on tablecloths, but from mine I have not
found (yet) any that bears coats of arms, except a white on white
embroidery. Most cases I have seen a coloured undercloth and a white over
cloth on the table. I have seen where the tablecloth is of a colour. In the
1500's Persian rugs were used in manors as tablecovers. Whether they were
eaten off of I do not know. If you have docs. on CoA on tablecloths I would
love to have it for my files.
I have seen bands of embroidery or woven on tablecloths, mostly "Italian"
paintings, normally 4 or more inches above the hem and only along the
longest width.
What I have been told but have no docs. on it, that most French areas
preferred white on white embroidery on tablecloths and whatnots, though
closer to the coastal areas the there was some colours in the embroidery. I
have not found any appliqué or painted tablecloths (doesn't mean there
wasn't any, just that no info has crossed my path for such).
I would recommend undercloths of the Company's colors and white overcloths
with tassels on the four corners for weight (recommend Scotguarding).
As for the banner. If this is for indoor banner/wallhanging you could
appliqué with fusible webbing or fabric glue (note: you could get a leopard
print material or yellow fabric and paint the spots). Then you can either a.
couch gold or silver thread b. split stitch, or c. stem stitch around the
edges (and tacking down) of the appliqué. Glued appliqué with couched or
embroidered edge can be found in the 15th and 16th century.
The base fabric should not be light weight as the glue will stiffen the
fabric and it will not look right.
It will be washable.
Otherwise you have been recommended the fabric paints which work well.
If the banner is for outdoors then I would recommend the paint.

Hope everything comes together for you and that everything goes smoothly and
quickly.

De


-----Original Message-----
I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth,
etc.
with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to
paint
it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint
would
hold up to the weather and washing.

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

Roscelin



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For an American colonist, ca 1780, a coat twenty or so years out of fashion 
might even be considered a political statement...
Good luck with the projects,
              -Helen/Aidan 


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From: "Sandra Olsen" <sandraleigh@abraxis.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:15:52 -0500
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Status: RO

He's not a bodybuilder with zero fat and a wasp waist, but he's got some
major shoulders, chest and arms. It's not for nothing that his friends
call him "Thor" (he's Norwegian) and "The Wall of Meat." I'm nervous
about him looking like he was stuffed into something too small.

If you've got any links or images for equestrian costume, I'd be VERY
interested! I've never heard of using leather on the collar and cuffs,
but he would *love* it. 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:18 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help

In a message dated 1/14/2005 11:20:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ruthanneb@mindspring.com writes:

> As a costumer (rather than a clothing historian) I'd think giving your

> husband the same garb philosophy as I gave Sir Lucius, or an attitude
of being 
> set in his ways, would be not merely acceptable but even a choice of
substance.
> 
> 

I agree.

But if your husband has major pecs and a small waist he will look great
in 
those narrow coats. A pigeon breast and sway back is the fashion for men
then. 
In the period they even pad the breast a bit and, even though the coat
is 
covered with buttons and button holes, only like 2 button holes will be
cut...at 
the curve of the breast. Or none...with a hook and eye at the curve.
Just don't 
make it TOO narrow.

Keep it kinda equestrian in feel...some leather maybe [collar and cuffs]
and 
riding boots and he'll be a HUNK!
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From: "Sandra Olsen" <sandraleigh@abraxis.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:18:42 -0500
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After seeing some of the other things you've made, I will wait as long
as it takes to see pictures of the bumroll you're describing. It sounds
like it's not too hard to assemble... I'm curious about where the darts
go.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:10 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help

Hi Sandra,
Off cause your husband could come in an oldfashioned jacket. Have you
not 
seen some of the Austen movies?
Several of the gentlemen wears old fashions and i think it is very 
authentic.
In a small place like Denmark, people from the province was way behind 
fashion sometimes years.
You could make your husbands jacket plain, without any decoration at
all, 
this is very nice also, and was also very much used. Only the
buttonholes 
and the buttons for decoration.
About your underwear, i am making right now underwear for an anglaise
dress. 
I think i have hit the right shape for my type of anglaise dress.
Bumrolls 
came in various shapes and sizes, there was not uniform in those. It 
depended of your taste and mind.
I made the bumroll of a square piece of material, bias cut and folded.
In 
each end i have made 2 darts. Then i have only lightly stuffed the
"roll" 
and i have made it about 35cm deep. It is nearly nothing in the front,
but 
curves out in the sides and is biggest in the back. My bodice has a long
v 
in the back, and the v is supposed to rest on the bumroll in the back.
If you will be patience, ill post some pictures later. For the corset i
have 
made the 1780ies one in Norah Waughs book. This you can se here:
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/late
If you want a commercial pattern, i would recomend to use the butterick 
pattern of late 1700 stays, this is very near the real one i have
remade.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sandra Olsen" <sandraleigh@abraxis.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Request for 1770-1780 help


> I've done Victorian, Medieval, and renaissance, but never 18c until
now,
> and I'd appreciate some help from those who know. We all know what
it's
> like to be starting out on unfamiliar territory.
>
> The date for the event is a 1780 ball.
> 1. My husband is a 6'6" weightlifter and we both think he'd look a
> little silly in one of those skinny, ultra-tight coats that were
coming
> into vogue then. He'd much rather wear a fuller cut 1750-1760-ish
coat.
> Can a middle-class American colonist get away with being 20-30 years
> behind the height of fashion?
> 2. On a robe polonaise, it appears that there are no panniers under
> there, but there's still a noticeable bouffant effect. How is this
> accomplished? Lots of petticoats? Stiff fabric? Bumroll? Link
> <http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/pcd/85263202/high/4578-039.jpg>
> to photo of dress. I realize that the dress has been modified in the
> 19th century, but it's a good illustration of the silhouette.
> 3. Does anyone have recommendations for patterns, including
> underclothes?
> 4. What trimming would be appropriate on a man's dress coat for the
> period? I've seen gorgeous embroideries in the Kyoto Institute Fashion
> book, but sadly I am not quite that talented.
> 5. Any other warnings, hints, tips etc.
>
> Thanks very much. I appreciate the assistance.
>
> Sandra
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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WS-FTP should still have a free-for-personal-use version floating about.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Womans 17th cen. Doublet


>
>
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby

> Melusine asked for 1630s, which was very much the heyday of Charles  I.
> I've been looking for a decent reproduction on the Internet of Mytens'
> painting "Charles I and Henrietta Maria departing for the chase" which
> should show ladies' riding costume, but without success. Wouldn't they
> in fact have worn something similar to the male doublet?

If this is the painting I'm thinking of, I have a slide of it somewhere, but 
unfortunately no way to put it on my computer.  If it is, she's wearing what 
looks like a regular low-cut silk dress, with teh addition of gloves, a 
collar tied around the neck and a wide-brimmed hat.  I've also been told 
that women of this time often rode astride in their dresses.  Can anyone 
give me any direction to look for that information?

Melusine 

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From: Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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roscelin wrote:
> I hope someone can help me.  I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, etc.
> with my persona's device.  The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
> do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem.  My thought was to paint
> it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint would
> hold up to the weather and washing.  
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
> 
> Roscelin

All considerations of 'periodness' aside, I have had good luck with 
Trigger brand polyester and Liquitex acryllic paints.
I have also used liquitex on canvas chair seats - no surface prep at all.
All have held up well.

liz young
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Jan 15 07:00:17 2005
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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net> wrote:roscelin wrote:
> I hope someone can help me. I need to put together a banner, tablecloth, etc.
> with my persona's device. The Tudor rose would be no problem to applique or
> do needlework, but the spotted leopard is the problem. My thought was to paint
> it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint would
> hold up to the weather and washing. 
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

All considerations of 'periodness' aside, I have had good luck with 
Trigger brand polyester and Liquitex acryllic paints.
I have also used liquitex on canvas chair seats - no surface prep at all.
All have held up well.

liz young
REPLY
If I may contribute to this Thread?
 
In the past 2 years  - starting from little more than a few weapons, one or two borrowed tents, and our clothes, - our Companie has had great need to produce as many "props" as possible, as fast as possible. 
The Household Banners I have produced have been painted on a base of Bishop's Lawn linen  with "Le Franc & Bourgeois" fabric paints. This creates a flag light enough to "fly" in almost any zeyphr. However, those of you who wish to try this method, beware! Once you begin to colour-in a large area, you must keep the "leading edge" wet, and work very fast. Because if the leading edge dries, you will get a colour-line showing when the flag flies "against the light". Furthermore, this method demands intense concentration, as I found to my cost. One mistake - and you have to throw out the whole workpiece and start again! 
And for the variously-sized House escutcheons for outer clothing, and table-linens, I have cheated - using "Paint Shop Pro 7" to design each escutcheon, and then printing them out as "iron-on transfers" to be applied to a linen base, and then "tacked" to each item of clothing, and to the tablecloths. When items are washed, the escutcheon patches are removed, for they would quickly fade in the wash, - and then tacked-back-into-place after laundering.
It would be wonderful to have the time to create all these items by needlework techniques; - but all our Companie's needlewomen are so busy filling the gaps in our Wardrobe, that there are simply not enough skilled hands - or time - available for this task, at the moment.
A programme of gradual replacement-substitution is planned for the future. Eventually. When the "pressure is off" and our display is sufficienty colourful.
In the meantime, our paying Clients and our viewing public seem happy enough with the colourful facsimile results; - and 99% of them wouldn't know the difference anyway.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:20:06 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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At 11:58 AM +0000 1/15/05, julian wilson wrote:
>The Household Banners I have produced have been painted on a base of 
>Bishop's Lawn linen  with "Le Franc & Bourgeois" fabric paints. This 
>creates a flag light enough to "fly" in almost any zeyphr.

<turning green with envy> Gosh, Julian, if we could _find_ Bishop's 
Lawn linen, I can think of any number of uses it could be put to..... 
<grin> It's a constant quest on this side of the pond to find linen 
light enough and fine enough to be even an approximation of pre-1600 
"fine linen."

-- 
____________________________________________________________

O    Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>  -   Davis, California
+     http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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Subject: [h-cost] RE:Table linen  was: Fabric paint
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I had forgot about the iron on method. :) What is your documentation for
having escutcheon on the tablecloth? I am always interested in period ways
to spruce up the feast hall's decor. I have not found anything showing
escutcheons on tablelinen. and the earliest I have found embroidered with
CoAs on the corners of napkins is 1767 , prior to that, 1621, initials. In
the 1800s some manors, I think English, started stamping the underside of
linens with the household badge or crest.

Here in the states, the fabric companies think that there isn't a demand for
linen.
Most people I know have to order online for their linen. When a fabric store
either accidentally get linen or it is ordered, the selection is limited and
very expensive.
My local group pooled together and ordered a bunch of natural colored linen.
We were able to order enough to get it at $4.95 a yd. That kind of pricing
is rare. I got very lucky and got the other day some low quality linen,
lavender color and 60" wide for $6.50.
I am looking to find enough people to in on ordering white handkerchief
weight linen, so that I can make a chemise and not go broke in the process.
:\

Maybe some of us can work a deal like some friends did a long time back.
They have a friend in Wales. They would ship him leather in exchange for
wool (at the time wool here was $25 and up a yd).
There are embroiderers here that want linen embroidery floss but most
companies that have it only sell the floss over there.
Because of these problems we in the States have to work twice as hard to
achieve historic copies and renditions on the material level.

Okay, enough of the rambling and possible whining.
De

-----Original Message-----
And for the variously-sized House escutcheons for outer clothing, and
table-linens, I have cheated - using "Paint Shop Pro 7" to design each
escutcheon, and then printing them out as "iron-on transfers" to be applied
to a linen base, and then "tacked" to each item of clothing, and to the
tablecloths. When items are washed, the escutcheon patches are removed, for
they would quickly fade in the wash, - and then tacked-back-into-place after
laundering.
It would be wonderful to have the time to create all these items by
needlework techniques; - but all our Companie's needlewomen are so busy
filling the gaps in our Wardrobe, that there are simply not enough skilled
hands - or time - available for this task, at the moment.
A programme of gradual replacement-substitution is planned for the future.
Eventually. When the "pressure is off" and our display is sufficienty
colourful.
In the meantime, our paying Clients and our viewing public seem happy enough
with the colourful facsimile results; - and 99% of them wouldn't know the
difference anyway.

Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey



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Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:39:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishop's Lawn linen
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Chris Laning <claning@igc.org> wrote:At 11:58 AM +0000 1/15/05, julian wilson wrote:
>The Household Banners I have produced have been painted on a base of 
>Bishop's Lawn linen with "Le Franc & Bourgeois" fabric paints. This 
>creates a flag light enough to "fly" in almost any zeyphr.

Gosh, Julian, if we could _find_ Bishop's 
Lawn linen, I can think of any number of uses it could be put to..... 
It's a constant quest on this side of the pond to find linen 
light enough and fine enough to be even an approximation of pre-1600 
"fine linen."

REPLY
Dear Chris, and any other Lister who is interested,
if any of you wish to order Bishop's Lawn Linen, - here in Jersey, in St. helier, we have a *very* old-established Family Haberdashery shop named "Hamons", where I buy my own supplies. I'm sure the Proprietors will be delighted to supply you all. If anyone wants the address and phone number, then I'll happily post it for you all.
The shelves are stacked with bolts of fabric from just above floor level to the 10ft-high ceiling; and there is barely room to move between them.  I doubt if any of the extremely-knowledgeable female staff are younger than 55yrs-old, and most of them are real "Jersey-folk" with the inimitable Jersey accent accent.
 I suspect, from conversations I've overheard, that at least half of them still speak Jerrais, the patois of the island, - which only 8% of islanders still speak; - though for the last 10 years the Education Dept. has been trying to turn this situation around, instituting lessons in Jerrais in first the Primary-, and then the Secondary-  Schools in our island.
Hamon's staff seem to know most of their customers - some of whom have been dealing with the shop for decades - by their first names. There isn't a computer or a chrome-trimmed, Formica-covered counter in sight!
My wife, [who is Jersey-born, on her mother's side from a Jersey family whose roots in the Island have been tracked back to 1204], tells me that she doesn't think Hamon's has changed at all in decor or layout, since the late-1940's; - and I've seen Edwardian-era photos of that part of King Street showing Hamon's looking exactly the same as it does now , [save for fresh paint]!   It is a wonderful shop - like something from a time-warp. If you put the staff into late- Victorian dress, nothing else in the shop - save for some of the fabric designs - would seem "out-of-period"!
Sadly, few "Family-owned" shops like this remain in St. Helier. Large numbers of such places have vanished from the Town over the last 40 years - though they were still common when I first came to Jersey on holiday in the late-1950's.





Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:Table linen  was: Fabric paint
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:ISNIP What is your documentation for having escutcheon on the tablecloth? I am always interested in period ways to spruce up the feast hall's decor. I have not found anything showing escutcheons on tablelinen.
REPLY
OK, escutcheons on table-cloths and napkins. 
We use two sets of table-linen - because we do two types of performances at Gorey Castle, where for the last two years we have been limited to the open-air, in the Lower Ward. [That will change this year, as we have just been given leave to use other areas of the castle and "spread ourselves  - which means we can now plan to use the various Chambers, including the medieval Great Hall, and the adjacent kitchens on the level below]. 
For the first type of display, we have been creating what can be loosely-termed  "one of Governor Baker's hunting-Camps" in the Lower Ward; - and for this we use fine damasks in white or cream for the high table and slightly-lesser-quality cloths for the middle table, at our noonmeals, - the items having been donated to us by our Mistress of the Robes, Lady Berna de la Fontaine. For these "in-camp-noonmeals", we go through all the motions, - with Companions eating according to "rank and class" and re-enacting Servitors as required. Table-ware is also graded according to Rank in these displays. Those Companions who act as servants under the direction of our Steward, serve the Companie, and do not eat themselves until Nobles, Gentry, and guests have  eaten. As it would have been, in so far as our researches go. [Though we draw the line at throwing food remnants onto the lawn - as we would be the ones to have to pick-up the rubbish afterwards]
 
The second type of performance, however, is intended to be more fun - free and easy, and more relaxed for everyone, - and we do this as "The Duke's Leopards", rather than as "Governor Baker's Household". And we allow a somewhat lower level of authenticity in customs and gear. 
The second type of performance  is when we display as many items as possible marked with the Escutcheon of our Company, including the table-linens, - and all Companions eat together, communally. 
Some of our Companions change to secondary Personas on these days. So, for example, the three young girls who act as Pages to the High Table during the Hunting-camp noonmeals, f- or these "Duke's Leopards" performances, wear  feminine garb, and sit down with the "grown-ups" as equals, having spent two years of hard research turning themselves into our "experts" on the lives of late-medieval children, and specialising in re-enacting medieval Childrens' Games and Pastimes. The girls also act as our "Ambassadors" to visiting children.
 
Now, as Companie Historian, I am aware that the Escutcheons on this 2nd set of linen are anachronistic; - however, our Council has agreed the lapse is permissable in our quest for Publicity for our group, - for we sell sets of napkins thus-marked as souvenirs to the MoP - with all profits going into the Companie funds; - and truth to tell, those marked items, including the linens,  do seem to catch the eyes of the viewing MoP. And our Clients the JHT have not chosen to "call us" on this point.
 
I realise this has been a bit of a long-winded explanation, but I am hoping I've explained some of "why-we-do what-we-do". And why we permit this particular anachronism of our Companie escutcheon on one set of table-linen..

For comments about Bishops' Lawn, see my earlier posting about our local shop Hamons', in King Street, St, Helier.


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Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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At 12:39 AM 1/16/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>REPLY
>Dear Chris, and any other Lister who is interested,
>if any of you wish to order Bishop's Lawn Linen, - here in Jersey, in St. 
>helier, we have a *very* old-established Family Haberdashery shop named 
>"Hamons", where I buy my own supplies. I'm sure the Proprietors will be 
>delighted to supply you all. If anyone wants the address and phone number, 
>then I'll happily post it for you all.


YES!!! Please.

Kimiko
:-)



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Subject: [h-cost] 1700's stays fabric
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Bjarne,

I will be asking a lady to make me a corset from the 1700's and I would
like to know what you think are appropriate fabrics to make it out of.

My thought is that the outer fabric can be sort of decorative because
there will be other fabric layers that will give support.  I would like to
use silk but I don't know what sort to get...solid color?  brocade? 
multi-color brocade?

Thanks for your suggestions!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bishop's Lawn linen
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Status: RO

Ditto!!!

De

-----Original Message-----
At 12:39 AM 1/16/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>REPLY
>Dear Chris, and any other Lister who is interested,
>if any of you wish to order Bishop's Lawn Linen, - here in Jersey, in St.
>helier, we have a *very* old-established Family Haberdashery shop named
>"Hamons", where I buy my own supplies. I'm sure the Proprietors will be
>delighted to supply you all. If anyone wants the address and phone number,
>then I'll happily post it for you all.


YES!!! Please.

Kimiko
:-)




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Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE:Table linen  
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:06:00 -0600
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Darn, I was hoping you had docs for it. :P
As I had said I am always looking for ways to spruce up the feast hall and
try to make it as within period as possible.
Presently, my group is waiting for it's device to pass at laurel level so
all we can do is work with the colors just in case they don't pass it.
Obligatory costume content :)
After I wrangle someone to help fit me for a corset, and I finish the
Elizabethan, my next challenge is probably a 1400s heraldic garment but then
a 1500s French has been calling me. I think I found material for the
forepart and sleeves but I am not sure I am ready to embroider the salmon.
AHHHH so much fabric, so many patterns, so out of my mind!

De

-----Original Message-----
REPLY
OK, escutcheons on table-cloths and napkins.
We use two sets of table-linen - because we do two types of performances at
Gorey Castle, where for the last two years we have been limited to the
open-air, in the Lower Ward. [That will change this year, as we have just
been given leave to use other areas of the castle and "spread ourselves  -
which means we can now plan to use the various Chambers, including the
medieval Great Hall, and the adjacent kitchens on the level below].
For the first type of display, we have been creating what can be
loosely-termed  "one of Governor Baker's hunting-Camps" in the Lower Ward; -
and for this we use fine damasks in white or cream for the high table and
slightly-lesser-quality cloths for the middle table, at our noonmeals, - the
items having been donated to us by our Mistress of the Robes, Lady Berna de
la Fontaine. For these "in-camp-noonmeals", we go through all the motions, -
with Companions eating according to "rank and class" and re-enacting
Servitors as required. Table-ware is also graded according to Rank in these
displays. Those Companions who act as servants under the direction of our
Steward, serve the Companie, and do not eat themselves until Nobles, Gentry,
and guests have  eaten. As it would have been, in so far as our researches
go. [Though we draw the line at throwing food remnants onto the lawn - as we
would be the ones to have to pick-up the rubbish afterwards]

The second type of performance, however, is intended to be more fun - free
and easy, and more relaxed for everyone, - and we do this as "The Duke's
Leopards", rather than as "Governor Baker's Household". And we allow a
somewhat lower level of authenticity in customs and gear.
The second type of performance  is when we display as many items as possible
marked with the Escutcheon of our Company, including the table-linens, - and
all Companions eat together, communally.
Some of our Companions change to secondary Personas on these days. So, for
example, the three young girls who act as Pages to the High Table during the
Hunting-camp noonmeals, f- or these "Duke's Leopards" performances, wear
feminine garb, and sit down with the "grown-ups" as equals, having spent two
years of hard research turning themselves into our "experts" on the lives of
late-medieval children, and specialising in re-enacting medieval Childrens'
Games and Pastimes. The girls also act as our "Ambassadors" to visiting
children.

Now, as Companie Historian, I am aware that the Escutcheons on this 2nd set
of linen are anachronistic; - however, our Council has agreed the lapse is
permissable in our quest for Publicity for our group, - for we sell sets of
napkins thus-marked as souvenirs to the MoP - with all profits going into
the Companie funds; - and truth to tell, those marked items, including the
linens,  do seem to catch the eyes of the viewing MoP. And our Clients the
JHT have not chosen to "call us" on this point.

I realise this has been a bit of a long-winded explanation, but I am hoping
I've explained some of "why-we-do what-we-do". And why we permit this
particular anachronism of our Companie escutcheon on one set of
table-linen..

For comments about Bishops' Lawn, see my earlier posting about our local
shop Hamons', in King Street, St, Helier.


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Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Jan 16 01:52:03 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1700's stays fabric
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In a message dated 1/15/2005 10:42:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dch@inreach.com writes:

> I would like to
> use silk but I don't know what sort to get...solid color?  brocade? 
> multi-color brocade?
> 

I'm not Bjarne but....

 It depends. 1700s is a long time. Early in the period you find more stays 
with fancy fabrics. When gowns become more closed and stomachers become rarer, 
you see more plain ones. Fancy silk brocade stays don't usually have the 
stitching show thru to the fancy fabric....but some do. Throughout the whole period 
you see plain linen stays. Also wool. I've never seen a plain silk one but 
that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

I like to make corsets pretty....actresses resist them less. I've made 18th 
century stays out of printed cotton chintz, with the vents showing, but I don't 
think that's period. Still, they looked good....bound in a ribbon some color 
picked up in the print.

If you can't decide, find a lovely plain fabric, like a silk or linen, and 
make stays with the vents showing. Then you've made a pretty compromise.

On "Last of the Mohicans" the stays were made by machine out of a piece of 
linen with boning casings made from 3/8" grosgrain ribbon. These were based 
together, boned and fitted, then taken apart at the seams and an outer layer of 
"fashion" fabric [I think one was made of cotton jacquard] was put over the 
pieces.....casings encased inside the 2 layers.  While still in pieces, 4 women 
hand back stitched all the casings with 3 or 4 strands of embroidery floss [or 
heavy-ish linen thread] thru to the front using the machine lines as a guide. 
Then the whole thing was sewn together and bound....and the eyelettes whipped 
over. The result looks hand sewn when worn.
You could use colored floss for the stitching....like that red wool corset 
with white stitching in "Fashion in Detail".
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote: 
Darn, I was hoping you had docs for it. :P

REPLY
 
Well, one place you might look is for such documentation is in the transcribed Exchequer Pipe Rolls detailing the State Expenses of the preparation for the State Visit of Princess Margaret of York, Ruling Duchess of Burgundy, to her Royal brother, King Edward IV of England. It is some years since I read these transcripts - indeed, I have even forgotten the references and would have to search for them once again.
 But I do recall they detailed - amongst other items, - the purchase of cloth of many kinds to "dress" the Retainers temporarily seconded to Princess Margaret's Service during her Visit; and  to "dress" the State Apartments assigned to her and her Suite; - and also to outfit the English welcoming Party that rode out to meet her, and conduct her and her Suite to London in a great State Procession. 
I recall mention of such items as horse caparisons, Surcoats, Servants & Boatmen's Liveries, bed-hangings, wall-hangings, &C. Another Item I recall was to the purchase from the Limners' Guild of numbers of her Escutcheons, badges embroidered and painted small upon fabric, leather, and oiled parchment, to identify her Retainers, her equipment, &C 
You might well find marked-table-linens mentioned in there somewhere.
 
Other sources would be surviving Household Accounts from the period, and Inventories in contemporary Wills, such as that of Sir John Fastolf  - patron to the Paston Family of Norfolk, and the prototype from whom Shakespeare drew the idea for his character of "Falstaff", in Henry IV Parts 1 &2, and "Henry V" - though the rich Knight of Norfolk was anything but a penniless, drunken old sot who frequented low taverns.
 
God keep you, this Feast of St. Valerius.





Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:
Ditto!!!

SNIP  If anyone wants the address and phone number,
>then I'll happily post it for you all.

YES!!! Please.

Kimiko
REPLY
Hamons' [Drapers]  - Victoria House, King Street, St. Helier, Jersery, JE2 4WF, C.I., U.K.
Their phone No. is area-code 1534, - 720331.
 


Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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I'm sorry if I missed this in a previous post, but how much does this linen  
cost a yard or meter?
 
Many thanks,
 
Nancy

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Sorry about that list subject header.  
 
Question was:  what is the price per yard/meter?
 
Nancy
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishop's Lawn linen
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Yes, Yes!!  Thanks!

Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 12:39 AM 1/16/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> REPLY
>> Dear Chris, and any other Lister who is interested,
>> if any of you wish to order Bishop's Lawn Linen, - here in Jersey, in 
>> St. helier, we have a *very* old-established Family Haberdashery shop 
>> named "Hamons", where I buy my own supplies. I'm sure the Proprietors 
>> will be delighted to supply you all. If anyone wants the address and 
>> phone number, then I'll happily post it for you all.
>
>
>
> YES!!! Please.
>
> Kimiko
> :-)
>
>
>
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MaddNancy@aol.com wrote: Sorry about that list subject header. 

Question was: what is the price per yard/meter?

Nancy
REPLY
I cannot recall what the price was when I bought several yards in 2003, which i am just coming to the end of. from ym point of view, the price was irrelevant, - because I "needed-it-right-then",  for flags and an embroidered late-emdieval high-status shirt; - and Hamons' Drapery was the only shop in our island that a] knew what I needed, and b] had any stock. All I do recall is that -as far as I was concerned, - it didn't "break the bank".




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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BTW, ladies, - at the time I didn't know that it was "Bishops' Lawn" linen. 
All I knew, ex-Youthful sailmaker as I was - was that cotton sailcloth or wool bunting wouldn't "cut-it", and that I needed the lightest linen I could get - close weave, smooooooth finish, and very light/MSq. or grms/cmSq
So I took my problem in to the knowledgeable staff as Hamons,  - and 3 of them went into a huddle, pulled down several bolts of material  from the shelves, and quickly decided on one as being appropriate for the use I had in mind. 
Unpainted, it was almost fine enough to read print through!  For the flags, I thought it would do really well, almost a light as fine silk!
So I bought as much as I needed for the projects I had in mind, along with a 25% reserve to cover for any mistakes I might make. 
And it wasn't until I consulted our Mistress of The Robes to confirm how I thought I should be making the shirt, - and showed her the fabric, - that she said - "ooh, Julian, that's "Bishops' Lawn", of course! You mus have been to Hamons, they're the only local shop that would stock such a thing!"
Me,  - not being into dress-making, - I'd never even *heard* of "Bishops' Lawn"! 
If I'd had to describe the fabric, the best comparison I could have come up with would have been the grade used for fine linen handkerchiefs.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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Subject: [h-cost] Silk/wool  -CHEAP
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Dear Listmembers, I have found that fabric.com is selling silk/wool at 
3.47 a yard plus I have 20%coupon for the store if i order before jan 
26th.  
(http://store.yahoo.com/phoenixtextiles/deals---steals-clearance-closeout-50--off-silk-wool-suiting.html)  

and I was thinking of ordering some.  The only problem being that the 
fabric is in plaids and that is not really my period (1500-1600 Eurppian 
is my main focus) and I do not think that this pattern is appropreate 
for anything I can think of.  Has anyone tried dying these types of 
fabrics/patterns, and how does it genrally work? Is there any hope of 
dying the fabric to look like a solid color?  The main one I was looking 
at was the fabric at the bottom-it is the lightest color, and i would 
thin, take dye the best. 

Any input on this topic would be most welcome. 

It does seem like a really good price and i just might buy some to make 
my mom a modern suit thing, but for that price, I would love to make 
myself a nice tudor dress or something-realitivly quiet, but FINE.

thanks for your time,
jordana
 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Jan 16 10:11:12 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1700's stays fabric
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:08:55 +0100
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Hi Diana,
Oh you can use silk taffeta, very nice and fine for this, but also brocade 
was very fashionable. Even wool was used for stays, so there are many 
alternatives.
If you want to make it historical correct, the two inner layers should be 
made of linen.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:39 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 1700's stays fabric


> Bjarne,
>
> I will be asking a lady to make me a corset from the 1700's and I would
> like to know what you think are appropriate fabrics to make it out of.
>
> My thought is that the outer fabric can be sort of decorative because
> there will be other fabric layers that will give support.  I would like to
> use silk but I don't know what sort to get...solid color?  brocade?
> multi-color brocade?
>
> Thanks for your suggestions!
>
> Diana
>
> www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
> "Everything for the Costumer"
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk/wool  -CHEAP
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I haven't actually done the wool/silk combo, but have dyed pure fabric 
of each very succesfully.  If you pick the darkest color in the plaid 
you will probably subdue the rest to the point where it is barely 
visible.  Just recenty during some research for a little earlier German, 
I came across several woodcuts/etchings which clearly show a checked or 
plaid pattern on underskirsts.  I'd have to look for it, but somewhere 
during my Flemish (middle 1500's)  research I came across a pair of 
pants which were clearly plaid.

Sg

J Schueller wrote:
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Silk/wool  -CHEAP
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:04:39 -0500
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Hi-

If you look at the fiber content of each, you'll notice that most are not just silk and wool. Some
have nylon in them, and I saw at least one with polyester in the mix. The natural fibers *should*
dye well, but the synthetics could resist and cause splotchiness overall. For this price, sure go
for it, but buy enough to experiment with to see if you like it before you commit the entire piece
to the dyebath.

I bought quite a bit of this when they still had the natural/taupe herringbone. It was lovely as it
was, but I just took a piece of it and ran it through the wash and hot dryer. It tightened up so
beautifully! I can't remember what the fiber mix was, I do know there was silk and wool at least,
and I like it so much that I'm not going to dye it. 

Pax,
::Linda::

 "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on
trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." - Dale Carnegie



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume- On Behalf Of J Schueller
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:51 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Silk/wool -CHEAP


Dear Listmembers, I have found that fabric.com is selling silk/wool at 
3.47 a yard plus I have 20%coupon for the store if i order before jan 
26th.  
(http://store.yahoo.com/phoenixtextiles/deals---steals-clearance-closeout-50--off-silk-wool-suiting
.html

and I was thinking of ordering some.  The only problem being that the 
fabric is in plaids and that is not really my period (1500-1600 Eurppian 
is my main focus) and I do not think that this pattern is appropreate 
for anything I can think of.  Has anyone tried dying these types of 
fabrics/patterns, and how does it genrally work? Is there any hope of 
dying the fabric to look like a solid color?  The main one I was looking 
at was the fabric at the bottom-it is the lightest color, and i would 
thin, take dye the best. 

Any input on this topic would be most welcome. 
It does seem like a really good price and i just might buy some to make 
my mom a modern suit thing, but for that price, I would love to make 
myself a nice tudor dress or something-realitivly quiet, but FINE.
-jordana



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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk/wool -CHEAP
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I haven't done any dyeing in years, but  friend of mine dyed some
off-white linen/silk mix a couple of years ago for a 1750s dress. The
colors of both fabrics was identical before dyeing, but the silk took
up much more dye than the linen of course. Shehadn't anticipated that
for some reason. it turned out to be a heather-ish sort of color
(bright turquoise), kind of homespun. I thought it was beautiful but
she was very disappointed with the result. at however much she spent
for the 15 yards, she had to use it anyway. She wore the dress once
after putting a great deal of work into it.

LynnD.


On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:04:39 -0500, Linda Rice <vmaa2@cox.net> wrote:
> Hi-
> 
> If you look at the fiber content of each, you'll notice that most are not just silk and wool. Some
> have nylon in them, and I saw at least one with polyester in the mix. The natural fibers *should*
> dye well, but the synthetics could resist and cause splotchiness overall. For this price, sure go
> for it, but buy enough to experiment with to see if you like it before you commit the entire piece
> to the dyebath.
> 
> I bought quite a bit of this when they still had the natural/taupe herringbone. It was lovely as it
> was, but I just took a piece of it and ran it through the wash and hot dryer. It tightened up so
> beautifully! I can't remember what the fiber mix was, I do know there was silk and wool at least,
> and I like it so much that I'm not going to dye it.
> 
> Pax,
> ::Linda::
> 
> "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on
> trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." - Dale Carnegie
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume- On Behalf Of J Schueller
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:51 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] Silk/wool -CHEAP
> 
> Dear Listmembers, I have found that fabric.com is selling silk/wool at
> 3.47 a yard plus I have 20%coupon for the store if i order before jan
> 26th.
> (http://store.yahoo.com/phoenixtextiles/deals---steals-clearance-closeout-50--off-silk-wool-suiting
> .html
> 
> and I was thinking of ordering some.  The only problem being that the
> fabric is in plaids and that is not really my period (1500-1600 Eurppian
> is my main focus) and I do not think that this pattern is appropreate
> for anything I can think of.  Has anyone tried dying these types of
> fabrics/patterns, and how does it genrally work? Is there any hope of
> dying the fabric to look like a solid color?  The main one I was looking
> at was the fabric at the bottom-it is the lightest color, and i would
> thin, take dye the best.
> 
> Any input on this topic would be most welcome.
> It does seem like a really good price and i just might buy some to make
> my mom a modern suit thing, but for that price, I would love to make
> myself a nice tudor dress or something-realitivly quiet, but FINE.
> -jordana
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
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My husband and I saw the new Merchant of Venice last night. The color
palate is dark, dark, dark. The only real color in Venice is worn by
the prostitutes, who look like butterflies flitting through a forest.
The one exception to this is the red caps required by Venice to be
worn by the Jews when they leave the ghetto, and these are a very
somber red. We loved the movie, even at $9.50 per ticket. The acting
was great, Venice was beautiful and crowded and cramped, and the
characters are what I pictured, even to the suitors. I'm now in love
with the twinkle in the eye of the Moorish Prince. Pacino's accent
went funny every once in a while, but the acting was quite good.

Costumes: Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing,
accessories, hair, colors. There were touches that screamed that
someone worked very hard at their research. The Spanish suitor was
VERY Spanish, as were his hangers-on. The prostitutes had lovely
dresses that hung below their shoulders and showed their nipples.
Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing, accessories,
hair, colors and have general knowledge of the Italian states, but 
can't specifically tell Venetian clothing from Florentine. Having said
that, we only had two issues with the costumes: Bassano's white
hatthat he wears to woo Portia made me snort with laughter (I seldom
snort) - it was too big and bright, and made me think of an overlarge
marshmallow melted over his head. The other issue was the neckline of
a couple of the women; I know that the sleeve went to the shoulder
point, but Portia or her woman wore her bodice below the shoulder
point and it looked wrong to me. However, the fabric of Portia's woman
(can't remember her name) wears a dress of the most beautiful brocade.
It's green and gold, depending on which way the light hits it.

I really loved the movie, and I hope people with better insights into
1590 Venice don't have too much to say against the costuming. If you
do, I'll be pleased to learn from you. As I said, this isn't my area
of expertise.
LynnD
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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:14:19 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Do you know who the costume designer was?

On Jan 16, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Lynn Downward wrote:

> My husband and I saw the new Merchant of Venice last night. The color
> palate is dark, dark, dark. The only real color in Venice is worn by
> the prostitutes, who look like butterflies flitting through a forest.
> The one exception to this is the red caps required by Venice to be
> worn by the Jews when they leave the ghetto, and these are a very
> somber red. We loved the movie, even at $9.50 per ticket. The acting
> was great, Venice was beautiful and crowded and cramped, and the
> characters are what I pictured, even to the suitors. I'm now in love
> with the twinkle in the eye of the Moorish Prince. Pacino's accent
> went funny every once in a while, but the acting was quite good.
>
> Costumes: Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing,
> accessories, hair, colors. There were touches that screamed that
> someone worked very hard at their research. The Spanish suitor was
> VERY Spanish, as were his hangers-on. The prostitutes had lovely
> dresses that hung below their shoulders and showed their nipples.
> Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing, accessories,
> hair, colors and have general knowledge of the Italian states, but
> can't specifically tell Venetian clothing from Florentine. Having said
> that, we only had two issues with the costumes: Bassano's white
> hatthat he wears to woo Portia made me snort with laughter (I seldom
> snort) - it was too big and bright, and made me think of an overlarge
> marshmallow melted over his head. The other issue was the neckline of
> a couple of the women; I know that the sleeve went to the shoulder
> point, but Portia or her woman wore her bodice below the shoulder
> point and it looked wrong to me. However, the fabric of Portia's woman
> (can't remember her name) wears a dress of the most beautiful brocade.
> It's green and gold, depending on which way the light hits it.
>
> I really loved the movie, and I hope people with better insights into
> 1590 Venice don't have too much to say against the costuming. If you
> do, I'll be pleased to learn from you. As I said, this isn't my area
> of expertise.
> LynnD
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
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At 12:14 16/01/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Do you know who the costume designer was?

Sammy Sheldon



>>Costumes: Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing,
>>accessories, hair, colors. There were touches that screamed that
>>someone worked very hard at their research. The Spanish suitor was
>>VERY Spanish, as were his hangers-on. The prostitutes had lovely
>>dresses that hung below their shoulders and showed their nipples.
>>Please know in advance that I KNOW Elizabethan clothing, accessories,
>>hair, colors and have general knowledge of the Italian states, but
>>can't specifically tell Venetian clothing from Florentine. Having said
>>that, we only had two issues with the costumes: Bassano's white
>>hatthat he wears to woo Portia made me snort with laughter (I seldom
>>snort) - it was too big and bright, and made me think of an overlarge
>>marshmallow melted over his head. The other issue was the neckline of
>>a couple of the women; I know that the sleeve went to the shoulder
>>point, but Portia or her woman wore her bodice below the shoulder
>>point and it looked wrong to me. However, the fabric of Portia's woman
>>(can't remember her name) wears a dress of the most beautiful brocade.
>>It's green and gold, depending on which way the light hits it.
>>
>>I really loved the movie, and I hope people with better insights into
>>1590 Venice don't have too much to say against the costuming. If you
>>do, I'll be pleased to learn from you. As I said, this isn't my area
>>of expertise.


Vecellio - can't remember the proper title, Dover reprint of engravings of 
costume by Vecellio, 1598. Does have some  costume pictures of different 
parts of Italy, France Spain etc, including I think, Florence, Rome and 
Venice among others.

Suzi
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Sylvia wrote:

> Do you know who the costume designer was?
>

Sammy Sheldon.  His CV is here: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1234336/   He 
hasn't done much, at least in film.  (NB: Canterbury Tales is modern dress, 
very liberal adaptation, but good and currently running on BBCAmerica.)

                     -Helen/Aidan 


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You know, Helen, I tried to remember it but I just can't. It was a
woman and I want to say that both her first and last names started
with "C" but I'm just not certain. We went out to dinner after and had
a wonderful time and I simply cannot remember after our date. I
believe that the website is themerchantofvenice or merchantofvenice or
something, so perhaps a google search will give that info. I have to
leave and be somewhere in about half an hour or I'd do the search.

LynnD


On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:33:18 -0500, Helen  Pinto <hpinto@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Sylvia wrote:
> 
> > Do you know who the costume designer was?
> >
> 
> Sammy Sheldon.  His CV is here: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1234336/   He
> hasn't done much, at least in film.  (NB: Canterbury Tales is modern dress,
> very liberal adaptation, but good and currently running on BBCAmerica.)
> 
>                     -Helen/Aidan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice website URL
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> believe that the website is themerchantofvenice or merchantofvenice or
> something, so perhaps a google search will give that info.

http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/merchantofvenice/flash.html

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk/wool  -CHEAP
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In a message dated 1/16/2005 10:58:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
vmaa2@cox.net writes:

have  nylon in them, and I saw at least one with polyester in the mix. The 
natural  fibers *should*
dye well, but the synthetics could resist and cause  splotchiness overall. 
For this price, sure go
for it, but buy enough to  experiment with to see if you like it before you 
commit the entire piece
to  the dyebath.




Nylon actually takes dyes very well, as it is chemically similar to  wool.  
Polyester, of course, is another matter--resists home dyes because  of its 
chemical structure.
 
Ann Wass
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
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Greetings,

Now that I'm back in North America and essentially house bound for the time 
being, I've been looking for a sewing project and have been contemplating 
doing one of the quilted mid-18th c. petticoats.  However, all the extant 
ones I know of are lined in glazed wool, and I have been unable to find 
any.  Anyone have any suggestions?  Any advice for someone who has done one 
would be appreciated as well.  : )

Cheers,
Danielle

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
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No, sorry, it's Sammy Sheldon.  I may have jumped to a conclusion about 
Sammy's gender and Sammy may actually be a woman, but I've got the name 
right, at least.
                -Helen/Aidan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice


> You know, Helen, I tried to remember it but I just can't. It was a
> woman and I want to say that both her first and last names started
> with "C" but I'm just not certain. We went out to dinner after and had
> a wonderful time and I simply cannot remember after our date. I
> believe that the website is themerchantofvenice or merchantofvenice or
> something, so perhaps a google search will give that info. I have to
> leave and be somewhere in about half an hour or I'd do the search.
>
> LynnD
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:33:18 -0500, Helen  Pinto <hpinto@mindspring.com> 
> wrote:
>> Sylvia wrote:
>>
>> > Do you know who the costume designer was?
>> >
>>
>> Sammy Sheldon.  His CV is here: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1234336/   He
>> hasn't done much, at least in film.  (NB: Canterbury Tales is modern 
>> dress,
>> very liberal adaptation, but good and currently running on BBCAmerica.)
>>
>>                     -Helen/Aidan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:42:53 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
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I have been hunting glazed wool for quite some time without luck. If you are
on the 18c Woman  yahoo maillist, you can look in the archives for many
bootless discussions of glazed wool.

Humphries in England makes it, and when I get my retailer number the US
distributor, who is local, will let me order some, and I will. You have to
buy a whole 20 meter warping of a loom, and it runs about $100 - $175 a
yard. Within the 20 meters, I can specify different color wefts, so my plan
is to get a white or ivory warp and do some traditional pastels for weft --
white, shrimp pink, buff, perhaps a sky blue or a red. But quite frankly
this $100-$175 is the wholesale price, and I haven't found any re-enactors
who would like to pay even $100 a yard for the glazed wool for a petticoat.
I would like to have at least five (figuring a petticoat at 2 to 3 yards)
lined up before I commit the money, plus, I don't have the money right now
anyhow, so would probably need to get some folks to commit cash up-front,
which, so far, is not happening. If you are $200 to $350 worth of interested
in your glazed wool, contact me off-list. I want to see re-enactors have
access to this material and am willing to do the legwork (I'd be willing to
put the $ in up front in a couple of years when my finances get over my
recent period of unemployment, too) without profit just to get my hands on
some of it myself, but the minimum order and the high cost are daunting.

So far this is it for finding glazed wool. If I get ahold of some and can
actually figure out how it was glazed (Humphries won't tell me, pointing
out, intelligently enough, "If we told people then we wouldn't be the only
place that made it anymore, would we?") I may try to develop the capacity to
make it, but don't hold your breath. On 18C woman, several folks have
started to insist they could copy the Diderot machine or do it with various
available laundry equipment, but so far nothing has panned out.

Best wishes and good luck!
lauren
lauren.walker@comcast.net

> From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
> Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:56:04 -0600
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Now that I'm back in North America and essentially house bound for the time
> being, I've been looking for a sewing project and have been contemplating
> doing one of the quilted mid-18th c. petticoats.  However, all the extant
> ones I know of are lined in glazed wool, and I have been unable to find
> any.  Anyone have any suggestions?  Any advice for someone who has done one
> would be appreciated as well.  : )
> 
> Cheers,
> Danielle
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:43:30 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted
  petticoat
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Status: RO

Somehow I didn't think I was the only one searching.  That is unfortunately 
*WAY* out of my budget.  One of the Linda Baumgarten books (I can't 
remember if it is "Costume Close Up: Clothing Construction and Pattern, 
1750-1790" or "What Clothes Reveal: The Language of Clothing in Colonial 
and Federal America") briefly mentions it and shows a small print  - 
apparently it takes heat and pressure.  I gave up on the 18c list ages - 
way too much traffic.  Good luck with it though.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 07:42 PM 1/16/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>I have been hunting glazed wool for quite some time without luck. If you are
>on the 18c Woman  yahoo maillist, you can look in the archives for many
>bootless discussions of glazed wool.
>
>Humphries in England makes it, and when I get my retailer number the US
>distributor, who is local, will let me order some, and I will. You have to
>buy a whole 20 meter warping of a loom, and it runs about $100 - $175 a
>yard. Within the 20 meters, I can specify different color wefts, so my plan
>is to get a white or ivory warp and do some traditional pastels for weft --
>white, shrimp pink, buff, perhaps a sky blue or a red. But quite frankly
>this $100-$175 is the wholesale price, and I haven't found any re-enactors
>who would like to pay even $100 a yard for the glazed wool for a petticoat.
>I would like to have at least five (figuring a petticoat at 2 to 3 yards)
>lined up before I commit the money, plus, I don't have the money right now
>anyhow, so would probably need to get some folks to commit cash up-front,
>which, so far, is not happening. If you are $200 to $350 worth of interested
>in your glazed wool, contact me off-list. I want to see re-enactors have
>access to this material and am willing to do the legwork (I'd be willing to
>put the $ in up front in a couple of years when my finances get over my
>recent period of unemployment, too) without profit just to get my hands on
>some of it myself, but the minimum order and the high cost are daunting.
>
>So far this is it for finding glazed wool. If I get ahold of some and can
>actually figure out how it was glazed (Humphries won't tell me, pointing
>out, intelligently enough, "If we told people then we wouldn't be the only
>place that made it anymore, would we?") I may try to develop the capacity to
>make it, but don't hold your breath. On 18C woman, several folks have
>started to insist they could copy the Diderot machine or do it with various
>available laundry equipment, but so far nothing has panned out.
>
>Best wishes and good luck!
>lauren
>lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
> > From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
> > Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:56:04 -0600
> > To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Subject: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Now that I'm back in North America and essentially house bound for the time
> > being, I've been looking for a sewing project and have been contemplating
> > doing one of the quilted mid-18th c. petticoats.  However, all the extant
> > ones I know of are lined in glazed wool, and I have been unable to find
> > any.  Anyone have any suggestions?  Any advice for someone who has done one
> > would be appreciated as well.  : )
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Danielle
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Jan 16 23:24:53 2005
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From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
References: <BE10743B.9773%lauren.walker@comcast.net>
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Status: RO

What process and chemicals were used to glaze wool in the 18th century?  
The modern ones may not be the same.

One place to look, in addition to period textile manufacturing 
references, is manuals on fabric cleaning or wool "scouring."  These 
sometimes end with instructions for how to restore the just-cleaned 
fabric to, hopefully, a like-new appearance.  For example, I have an 
early 19th-century manual on fabric cleaning, designed to tell 
housewives how to use professional techniques.  One  recipe for cleaning 
wool fabric in "chamber lye" (urine), ends by using a small brush to 
coat the wool with a very small amount of olive oil.  And oil is, 
according to my modern textile dictionaries, one substance that can be 
used to glaze fabric.  (Other modern glazes mentioned are starch, 
paraffin, shellac, or wax.)

As for a calendering machine, the closest thing you can probably find on 
a manageable scale is a home mangle.  You'd need one to flatten the 
threads of the fabric--if that must be done--but not necessarily to coat 
it with anything.  (This is also the type of machine used to create 
moire fabrics but I have no idea whether a mangle can be adapted.)

One thing to remember is that a glace wool is, these days, not a glazed 
wool as far as I know.  It is a specific British fabric with a cotton 
warp, and a mohair or luster worsted weft.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com


<snip>

>If you are $200 to $350 worth of interested
>in your glazed wool, contact me off-list. I want to see re-enactors have
>access to this material and am willing to do the legwork (I'd be willing to
>put the $ in up front in a couple of years when my finances get over my
>recent period of unemployment, too) without profit just to get my hands on
>some of it myself, but the minimum order and the high cost are daunting.
>
>So far this is it for finding glazed wool. If I get ahold of some and can
>actually figure out how it was glazed (Humphries won't tell me, pointing
>out, intelligently enough, "If we told people then we wouldn't be the only
>place that made it anymore, would we?") I may try to develop the capacity to
>make it, but don't hold your breath. 
>
>  
>
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Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:31:43 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] DRAPERS' ADDRESS
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Thank you Julian, very much. ~ Kimiko


At 09:23 AM 1/16/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>REPLY
>Hamons' [Drapers]  - Victoria House, King Street, St. Helier, Jersery, JE2 
>4WF, C.I., U.K.
>Their phone No. is area-code 1534, - 720331.
>
>
>
>Yours in service,
>Julian Wilson,
>[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of 
>Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
>late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
>"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
>in "olde" Jersey

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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:13:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Hi, Fran,
Thanks for the update, but I'm pretty sure the Humphries stuff *is* done in
the 18th century way -- since they are using some 18th and some 19th century
looms to weave it and do fairly extensive research on the historical
patterns and methods in order to sell to museums and the like. It's not
"modern glace wool", at any rate.
Thanks again,
Lauren


> One thing to remember is that a glace wool is, these days, not a glazed
> wool as far as I know.  It is a specific British fabric with a cotton
> warp, and a mohair or luster worsted weft.
> 
> Fran
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> If you are $200 to $350 worth of interested
>> in your glazed wool, contact me off-list. I want to see re-enactors have
>> access to this material and am willing to do the legwork (I'd be willing to
>> put the $ in up front in a couple of years when my finances get over my
>> recent period of unemployment, too) without profit just to get my hands on
>> some of it myself, but the minimum order and the high cost are daunting.
>> 
>> So far this is it for finding glazed wool. If I get ahold of some and can
>> actually figure out how it was glazed (Humphries won't tell me, pointing
>> out, intelligently enough, "If we told people then we wouldn't be the only
>> place that made it anymore, would we?") I may try to develop the capacity to
>> make it, but don't hold your breath.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi.
I dont know about glazed wool, but glazed linen. You used a  smooth stone 
wich you rubbed the linnen with.The linnen got to shine like silk.
Could this be the same with wool?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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I don't know what glazed wool is - does it look more shiny?  Flatter?

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
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I think the question is whether you want to find out more about what was 
done in the 18th century so you can save money by finding another 
supplier who uses a similar finishing process but charges less, or by 
doing the finishing yourself.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Lauren Walker wrote:

>Hi, Fran,
>Thanks for the update, but I'm pretty sure the Humphries stuff *is* done in
>the 18th century way -- since they are using some 18th and some 19th century
>looms to weave it and do fairly extensive research on the historical
>patterns and methods in order to sell to museums and the like. 
>
>  
>
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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:18:03 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted
  petticoat
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In looking through my "Textiles in America 1650-1870" (Florence 
Montgomery), I found the entry for "Tammy" (pgs. 360-361 and Plate D-103 
[color samples of the fabrics]), which seems to be what you are trying to 
find.  Here are excerpts from the entry:
"A strong, lightweight worsted of plain weave and open texture, often 
glazed.  The name is one of several derived from the Italian "stame" 
meaning both a worsted yarn and a warp. ... More recently tammies were made 
with cotton warp and worsted weft."
Green, yellow, claret, and especially red and blue tammies are listed in 
seventeenth-century American inventories.  James Beekman's annual, or 
semiannual, orders from New York included black, white, brown, green, blue, 
yellow, red, pink, and striped tammies."
"Tammy was used for bed and window hangings, for ladies' petticoats and 
dresses, for the linings of men's coats, and as strainer clothes, or 
sieves. ..."
"... for swatches of Yorkshire tammies, see plate D-103."

So there are actual samples still in existence that Humphries could study; 
even the pink is pretty intense (no pastels).  The original tammies (also 
called durants, or budoys) were apparently done in 30-yard pieces, 30 
inches wide.

One thing I could not figure out is what the word "glazed" means in this 
context.  The use of worsted yarns in the weft would make the fabric very 
smooth, and not likely to full.  Maybe just being calendared would bring 
out the sheen.

Joan Jurancich
spinner, weaver, seamstress

At 07:42 PM 1/16/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>I have been hunting glazed wool for quite some time without luck. If you are
>on the 18c Woman  yahoo maillist, you can look in the archives for many
>bootless discussions of glazed wool.
>
>Humphries in England makes it, and when I get my retailer number the US
>distributor, who is local, will let me order some, and I will. You have to
>buy a whole 20 meter warping of a loom, and it runs about $100 - $175 a
>yard. Within the 20 meters, I can specify different color wefts, so my plan
>is to get a white or ivory warp and do some traditional pastels for weft --
>white, shrimp pink, buff, perhaps a sky blue or a red. But quite frankly
>this $100-$175 is the wholesale price, and I haven't found any re-enactors
>who would like to pay even $100 a yard for the glazed wool for a petticoat.
>I would like to have at least five (figuring a petticoat at 2 to 3 yards)
>lined up before I commit the money, plus, I don't have the money right now
>anyhow, so would probably need to get some folks to commit cash up-front,
>which, so far, is not happening. If you are $200 to $350 worth of interested
>in your glazed wool, contact me off-list. I want to see re-enactors have
>access to this material and am willing to do the legwork (I'd be willing to
>put the $ in up front in a couple of years when my finances get over my
>recent period of unemployment, too) without profit just to get my hands on
>some of it myself, but the minimum order and the high cost are daunting.
>
>So far this is it for finding glazed wool. If I get ahold of some and can
>actually figure out how it was glazed (Humphries won't tell me, pointing
>out, intelligently enough, "If we told people then we wouldn't be the only
>place that made it anymore, would we?") I may try to develop the capacity to
>make it, but don't hold your breath. On 18C woman, several folks have
>started to insist they could copy the Diderot machine or do it with various
>available laundry equipment, but so far nothing has panned out.
>
>Best wishes and good luck!
>lauren
>lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
> > From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
> > Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:56:04 -0600
> > To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Subject: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Now that I'm back in North America and essentially house bound for the time
> > being, I've been looking for a sewing project and have been contemplating
> > doing one of the quilted mid-18th c. petticoats.  However, all the extant
> > ones I know of are lined in glazed wool, and I have been unable to find
> > any.  Anyone have any suggestions?  Any advice for someone who has done one
> > would be appreciated as well.  : )
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Danielle
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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Calimanco is another glazed wool that was frequently used for 18th c. quilted 
petticoats. I have a detailed description of the manufacturing process in a 19th 
century textile dictionary at home. IIRC it involved friction calendering using 
heat and high pressure to achieve the glazed finish, and may have included an 
immersion bath that applied additives to the woven fabric before calendering. I can 
post the definition this evening. 

I'm not sure a consumer version of a mangle iron could provide a sufficient amount 
of either to produce the original finish, but it might be able to maintain it after 
laundering. It would be worth investigating. The DAR museum in Washington DC had a 
beautiful quilted calimanco petticoat on display several years ago. My notes from 
the exhibit indicate the fabric was no longer being commercially manufactured. 
Custom production like you've mentioned may be an option. 

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 3-6, 2005



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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> More recently tammies were made with cotton warp and worsted weft."

I wonder what Montgomery means by "more recently"? 

I have an 1890s textile dictionary that says "tammy" is the same fabric 
as "tamin," whichin turn is defined as a "thin woolen or worsted dress 
goods, plain woven, with a high gloss."  Then again, I have an 1880s 
dictionary which defines "tammy" as having a worsted warp and a cotton 
weft, highly glazed, and chiefly used for upholstery, but also as 
otherwise called Durants, twilled, and mostly used for women's 
petticoats, curtains, and window blinds.


>
>
> One thing I could not figure out is what the word "glazed" means in 
> this context.  The use of worsted yarns in the weft would make the 
> fabric very smooth, and not likely to full.  Maybe just being 
> calendared would bring out the sheen.
>

I think they may be talking about a fairly high degree of gloss.  
Montgomery quotes an 1801 source as saying the English tammies had "long 
shiny fibers [which] make a beautiful cloth that takes a lustrous 
finish," and then there is the Victorian reference to a "high gloss" above.

Fran
Lavolta Press
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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>Calimanco is another glazed wool that was frequently used for 18th c. quilted 
>petticoats. I have a detailed description of the manufacturing process in a 19th 
>century textile dictionary at home. 
>  
>
The short definition in the 1882  _Encyclopedia of Needlework_ is "This 
material resembles Tammies and Durants.  It is highly glazed, and can be 
had plain or twilled, raised in stripes or brocaded . . . It is employed 
for women's petticoats."

>I'm not sure a consumer version of a mangle iron could provide a sufficient amount 
>of either to produce the original finish, but it might be able to maintain it after 
>laundering. It would be worth investigating. 
>  
>
At least it is possible to get hold of a mangle and fit it into a house, 
for the purpose of experimentation.

Chintz is of course a different fabric, but the early 19th-century 
cleaning manual I mentioned preserves the gloss of chintz curtains by 
washing them in water and rice boiled in the water, using the rice 
instead of soap, and eventually straining it out.  This would starch the 
fabric.  "Then rub it with a sleeking stone, or glaze it, and it is 
finished."   Another recipe says to wash the chintz in soap and water, 
then starch it with flour or starch, then glaze it.

It might be worth investigating in detail how glazed fabric was produced 
before calendering machines were invented.  I suspect a lot could be 
done by energetic rubbing with stones or some such nonmechanized tool, 
and/or by brushing on some coating.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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(With a chuckle), I have a friend who brought me some Egyptian cotton right
off the loom in Cairo that has a shiny finish.  It is produced by two men
beating it with wooden paddles as the piece is rolling from the weaving
process....

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat


>
> >Calimanco is another glazed wool that was frequently used for 18th c.
quilted
> >petticoats. I have a detailed description of the manufacturing process in
a 19th
> >century textile dictionary at home.
> >
> >
> The short definition in the 1882  _Encyclopedia of Needlework_ is "This
> material resembles Tammies and Durants.  It is highly glazed, and can be
> had plain or twilled, raised in stripes or brocaded . . . It is employed
> for women's petticoats."
>
> >I'm not sure a consumer version of a mangle iron could provide a
sufficient amount
> >of either to produce the original finish, but it might be able to
maintain it after
> >laundering. It would be worth investigating.
> >
> >
> At least it is possible to get hold of a mangle and fit it into a house,
> for the purpose of experimentation.
>
> Chintz is of course a different fabric, but the early 19th-century
> cleaning manual I mentioned preserves the gloss of chintz curtains by
> washing them in water and rice boiled in the water, using the rice
> instead of soap, and eventually straining it out.  This would starch the
> fabric.  "Then rub it with a sleeking stone, or glaze it, and it is
> finished."   Another recipe says to wash the chintz in soap and water,
> then starch it with flour or starch, then glaze it.
>
> It might be worth investigating in detail how glazed fabric was produced
> before calendering machines were invented.  I suspect a lot could be
> done by energetic rubbing with stones or some such nonmechanized tool,
> and/or by brushing on some coating.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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Again, not to be no fun, but the folks on 18C Woman really seem to have gone
through a variety of the home-made options to no avail -- either the wool we
have doesn't take a sheen without pretty heavy pressure, or the home devices
just don't provide the right pressure, or there are chemical glazing
additives involved, or all of the above. Anyway the result has been
unsatisfactory. 

"Tammy" is one of the fabrics that was often glazed, but the sources I've
seen do differentiate between glazed and unglazed tammies, and Humphries
offers both glazed and unglazed. Indeed if I could get my hands on some of
their glazed stuff I would try VERY hard to analyze it and see if the
process could be replicated perhaps on commercially machine-woven wools. .

But really, if you're interested, hunt on glazed wool in the 18C woman list
archives; they've really tried a lot of options.
Lauren, the wet, unglazed, wool blanket
 
>> I'm not sure a consumer version of a mangle iron could provide a sufficient
>> amount 
>> of either to produce the original finish, but it might be able to maintain it
>> after 
>> laundering. It would be worth investigating.
>> 
>> 
> At least it is possible to get hold of a mangle and fit it into a house,
> for the purpose of experimentation.

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: glazed wool
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So then is glazed wool something that can only be produced by a mechanical
roller, and thus a very late thing possible only after the industrial
revolution? Or is it a finish you could get earlier? Just curious --

Gail Finke

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
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One great thing about h-costume is that its members research textiles 
and costumes for many eras.  Personally I think information on 
pre-industrial wool treatments could be very informative.

The ingredients are supposed to be (a) a coating and/or (b) rubbing or 
pressure/flattening and/or (c) heat.  All of which can be applied with 
quite simple equipment, although the exact method might take some 
experimentation.

I'm not saying that you have to glaze wool, I'm just saying that I bet 
_someone_ could do it on a home basis if they did enough research and/or 
experimentation. 

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Lauren Walker wrote:

>Again, not to be no fun, but the folks on 18C Woman really seem to have gone
>through a variety of the home-made options to no avail -- either the wool we
>have doesn't take a sheen without pretty heavy pressure, or the home devices
>just don't provide the right pressure, or there are chemical glazing
>additives involved, or all of the above. Anyway the result has been
>unsatisfactory. 
>  
>
>  
>
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> I don't know what glazed wool is - does it look more
> shiny?  Flatter?
> 
> -- 
> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

It looks shiny, sort of a satin luster, based on the
glazed-wool petticoats and quilts I have seen, mostly
at the American Textile History Museum in Lowell, MA. 


The stitching interupts the surface pleasantly to
really show clearly.

Ann in CT


		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
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At 03:05 PM 1/17/2005 -0800, you wrote:

> > I don't know what glazed wool is - does it look more
> > shiny?  Flatter?
> >
> > --
> > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
>
>It looks shiny, sort of a satin luster, based on the
>glazed-wool petticoats and quilts I have seen, mostly
>at the American Textile History Museum in Lowell, MA.
>
>
>The stitching interupts the surface pleasantly to
>really show clearly.
>
>Ann in CT

Trying to "glaze" wool broadcloth, which is generally twill-woven with a 
worsted warp but a woolen weft, would not result in a smooth or shiny 
surface.  And gabardine, which is twill-woven with worsted yarns, is 
probably too dense (twills usually have more wefts per inch than warps).  A 
plain (or tabby) weave with worsted both as warp and weft would probably 
"glaze" with the same kind of beetling that is done with linen fabric; this 
would tend to flatten the threads and emphasize the parallel arrangement of 
the fibers in the threads.  Hmmm...  I wish I could find out the 
ends-per-inch (epi) in warp and weft and wraps-per-inch (wpi, a measure of 
thread diameter) for an actual sample.  That would provide a basis for 
experimenting.

 From your friendly fiber fan,

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: [h-cost] Pretty, pretty examples of glazed wool
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There are some nice pictures of quilted glazed wools here among some other,
non-glazed, quilted wools.

http://www.bidwellhousemuseum.org/Collections/Quilts_overview_of_collection.
htm

Based on the info on that page I've just ordered some gum arabic to try on
modern wools. If I get a good shine out of it I'll let you know. I'm
optimistic because gum arabic is water-soluble and whatever glazed the
glazed wools could not be washed as the glaze would wash out (a thing to
keep in mind for your petticoats. Though if we can perfect a home-glazing
method I guess you could reglaze after washing.) Olive oil has never made
anything shiny for me and draws bugs, and based on that I was loath to try
ironing egg whites into a fabric I was going to wear, either. They work on
challah but you don't wear challah. So I'll let you know when the gum arabic
gets here.

I'm only being mopey about the possibilities because I've been thoroughly
moped at and discouraged over at 18th C Woman. I kept saying, "Surely
somebody could make this?" and there were just lots and lots of iterations
of things people had tried that didn't work. But not everybody is as willing
as I am to mess up some cloth and get junk on my iron see what happens. So I
shall give the gum a try.

The apparatus for the pressure as shown in Diderot is pretty darn big --
seems to involve boxes of rocks and man-sized wheel rollers and stuff. I'm
trying to get a better copy of the pages from L'Encyclopedié to check out
the mechanics more carefully. I don't know if you count Diderot as pre- or
post-Industrial Revolution. I tend to think of the IR as synonymous with the
turn of the 19th century, which is silly and imprecise of me but doesn't
work too badly for most of the textile implications and obviously Diderot
was dead by then. Whereas by the 1840s you still see whole-cloth quilts but
they are no longer of glazed wool.

It appears that smaller glazers -- heated glass spheres, stones, etc. --
don't make enough of an impression on the wool to get a real shine going.
But possibly the gum will answer all.

Lauren
-- 
> 
>> I don't know what glazed wool is - does it look more
>> shiny?  Flatter?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
> 
> It looks shiny, sort of a satin luster, based on the
> glazed-wool petticoats and quilts I have seen, mostly
> at the American Textile History Museum in Lowell, MA.
> 
> 
> The stitching interupts the surface pleasantly to
> really show clearly.
> 
> Ann in CT
> 
> 
> 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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PS: I agree it's got to be tried on a worsted tabby, that twills aren't
going to have the right surface. I've got some tropical and suit-weight
commercially made worsted tabbies around the house and can always cook up
some more on the loom if they don't respond. But I still think the secret is
partly chemical -- if you l look at the shine on some of these
http://www.bidwellhousemuseum.org/Collections/Quilts_overview_of_collection.
htm, well, that's not just pressure, there.
Lauren
Who really has been obsessed with this for two years now


> From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>

> 
> Trying to "glaze" wool broadcloth, which is generally twill-woven with a
> worsted warp but a woolen weft, would not result in a smooth or shiny
> surface.  And gabardine, which is twill-woven with worsted yarns, is
> probably too dense (twills usually have more wefts per inch than warps).  A
> plain (or tabby) weave with worsted both as warp and weft would probably
> "glaze" with the same kind of beetling that is done with linen fabric; this
> would tend to flatten the threads and emphasize the parallel arrangement of
> the fibers in the threads.  Hmmm...  I wish I could find out the
> ends-per-inch (epi) in warp and weft and wraps-per-inch (wpi, a measure of
> thread diameter) for an actual sample.  That would provide a basis for
> experimenting.

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Lauren Walker wrote:

> There are some nice pictures of quilted glazed wools here among some other,
> non-glazed, quilted wools.
> 
> http://www.bidwellhousemuseum.org/Collections/Quilts_overview_of_collection.
> htm

Thank you!  That's so shiny, it looks like worked leather, or like a 
quilt made of a vinyl tablecloth.  Wow.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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>shall give the gum a try.
>
>The apparatus for the pressure as shown in Diderot is pretty darn big --
>seems to involve boxes of rocks and man-sized wheel rollers and stuff. I'm
>trying to get a better copy of the pages from L'Encyclopedié to check out
>the mechanics more carefully. I don't know if you count Diderot as pre- or
>post-Industrial Revolution. I tend to think of the IR as synonymous with the
>turn of the 19th century, which is silly and imprecise of me but doesn't
>work too badly for most of the textile implications and obviously Diderot
>was dead by then.
>
The Industrial Revolution is supposed to be a transitional period, and 
the dates for England  circa 1750 to circa 1850.  Wyatt's steam engine 
was invented in 1769.

However, you don't necessarily need a huge engine for the purpose, any 
more than you need an industrial loom to weave cloth.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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Thank you all for such an fascinating topic.  Can anyone tell me if 
there is a difference is between Matelasse and this type of quilting?   
I notice that almost all of them are backed with a yellow/gold/buff 
backing...any thoughts on why this was so predominant?

Wow!  Makes me wanna' go try glazing on wool.  Any idea of how far back 
it goes?

That ivy leaf pattern is incredible....looks almost 3d....

Did I say that I love this group?

Sg


>  
>
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There is a detailed article on Calendering in the September 1852 issue of
Godey's Lady's Book. To summarize:

Glazing: (The fabric) must first be damped by passing slowly over the
damping or degging-machine, containing a circular brush, the points of
which, as they rapidly revolve, just touch the surface of the water, and
dash up a cloud of fine spray against the cloth.  This being completed, and
the whole of the cloth uniformly damped, it now passes to the calendaring
machine - a number of rollers contained in a massive framework. The rollers
are connected with a long lever loaded with weights at the further
extremity, by which, or by means of screws, almost any amount of force may
be obtained, and the surface texture of the cloth varied at pleasure.
(snip) It will be taken for granted by those who have never witnessed the
operations, that the rollers are all of iron; but this is not the case: they
are of cast-iron, wood, paper, or calico, according to the uses for which
they are designed.  

In Cole's Encyclopedia of Dry Goods (1900 edition), the definition for
glazing refers the reader to the definition for calendaring. Cole's
describes calendaring as a mechanical process by which cloth is given a
perfectly smooth and even surface and sometimes a superficial glaze. (snip)
The machine was introduced into England from Flanders in the 17th century.
During the two hundred years and over that have passes since its
introduction and adoption, no material alteration or improvement has been
made in the original machine; nor have any great advances been made in the
practical application of it. (snip) The object is to compress the threads,
reduce them to a degree of flatness, and finish the cloth with an additional
luster. When the cloth is submitted to friction, as well as the pressure
between heated rollers, a glaze finish is produced. The frictional effect is
obtained by a reciprocating motion of the cylinders, the latter being geared
to revolve at different rates of speed.  

In both sources, the sections on linen and cotton refer to the use of starch
in the glazing process; the section on wool does not.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 3-6, 2005







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Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:41:35 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
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At 07:13 PM 1/17/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Thank you all for such an fascinating topic.  Can anyone tell me if there 
>is a difference is between Matelasse and this type of quilting?
>I notice that almost all of them are backed with a yellow/gold/buff 
>backing...any thoughts on why this was so predominant?
>
>Wow!  Makes me wanna' go try glazing on wool.  Any idea of how far back it 
>goes?
>
>That ivy leaf pattern is incredible....looks almost 3d....
>
>Did I say that I love this group?
>
>Sg

According to Montgomery's "Textiles in America" (page 292):
"Matelasse:  A term applied to a silk or woolen textile which has a raised 
figure or flower on the surface and appears to have been machine 
quilted.  The word is derived from the French matelasser, to quilt or 
wad.  'Very fine descriptions' of silk matelasse were produced in the 1880s 
for dresses, mantles, and opera cloaks; others made of wool were used for 
mantles and jackets (Caulfield and Saward).
"According to the CIETA definition, matelasse is a double-woven textile 
with a quilted appearance.  A wadding weft is used to increase the relief.
"See also Marcella."


 From your friendly fiber fan,

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanmj@surewest.net 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Jan 18 00:22:12 2005
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:21:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Hi, 
Matelasse was developed to simulate this kind of quilting -- they look a lot
alike because that was the idea. Matelasse is basically a kind of
doubleweave. As I understand it, although the older stuff was done in linen
and the designs may have changed, modern matelasse is technically very much
like 18th C matelasse.

Whereas quilting is done with a needle and thread through multiple layers of
fabric and batting.

My guess on the buff/yellow backings is that it's probably the color of
undyed wool, or a color that wouldn't leach onto the top color. But it's
just a guess. 

And I still say the only thing I own that could put a ton or so of pressure
on a piece of wool is my car. Possibly when the weather gets better I'll try
driving over some wool between metal plates. But maybe the secret is the gum
arabic, and the pressure is a red herring, and soon we can all play!

And also I must apologize -- I forget that historical costume may be
interested primarily in re-creating a look. I'm kind of obsessed with
re-creating the actual technology.

Lauren

> From: Wicked Frau <wickedfrau@earthlink.net>
> Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:13:36 -0700
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
> 
> Thank you all for such an fascinating topic.  Can anyone tell me if
> there is a difference is between Matelasse and this type of quilting?
> I notice that almost all of them are backed with a yellow/gold/buff
> backing...any thoughts on why this was so predominant?
> 
> Wow!  Makes me wanna' go try glazing on wool.  Any idea of how far back
> it goes?
> 
> That ivy leaf pattern is incredible....looks almost 3d....
> 
> Did I say that I love this group?
> 
> Sg
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Jan 18 09:46:59 2005
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
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And some of us are both, but have to "settle" for less-than-optimal. 
I'm finding the whole discussion just fascinating, and I don't even 
really *do* 18th c. reenactment (although I'd like to....live in the 
wrong part of the US for anything like that).
That's actually one of the things I like about this list not just being 
for one type of costumer--I get all kinds of tidbits from this sort of 
discussion, to Albert talking about his work with moview, etc.  It's all 
worth knowing! ;-)
--sue in icy/snowy Montana...

Lauren Walker wrote:

> Hi, 
> Matelasse was developed to simulate this kind of quilting -- they look a lot
> alike because that was the idea. Matelasse is basically a kind of
> doubleweave. As I understand it, although the older stuff was done in linen
> and the designs may have changed, modern matelasse is technically very much
> like 18th C matelasse.
> 
> Whereas quilting is done with a needle and thread through multiple layers of
> fabric and batting.
> 
> My guess on the buff/yellow backings is that it's probably the color of
> undyed wool, or a color that wouldn't leach onto the top color. But it's
> just a guess. 
> 
> And I still say the only thing I own that could put a ton or so of pressure
> on a piece of wool is my car. Possibly when the weather gets better I'll try
> driving over some wool between metal plates. But maybe the secret is the gum
> arabic, and the pressure is a red herring, and soon we can all play!
> 
> And also I must apologize -- I forget that historical costume may be
> interested primarily in re-creating a look. I'm kind of obsessed with
> re-creating the actual technology.
> 
> Lauren
> 

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Subject: [h-cost] glazed wool, and other alternatives for 18th c. petticoats
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Given the lack of availability of glazed wool, I made mine out of
regular wool (suit-weight worsted).  Believe me, people are STILL
impressed, even though it's not glazed.

Alternatively, I believe I've seen references to quilted petticoats
with the outermost layer of linen or cotton (not as common as wool,
but feasible), and, of course, silk.  If you wanted to make this for
a 'camp follower' impression, you could make a silk petticoat and
artificially distress it... <GGG>

-- Mara


=====
---------------------
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] glazed wool
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If, in fact, quantity of pressure is what is needed--repeated pressure 
with something lighter might do the trick.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


>
>And I still say the only thing I own that could put a ton or so of pressure
>on a piece of wool is my car.
>
>  
>
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:41:23 -0800
From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
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And that's exactly why I don't trust my memory so well when it comes
to names. C, S, they're not even close. And I see maybe three movies
in a year, so I don't recognize the name at all.

Thanks for the correction, Helen.
Lynnd

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:25:44 -0500, Helen  Pinto <hpinto@mindspring.com> wrote:
> No, sorry, it's Sammy Sheldon.  I may have jumped to a conclusion about
> Sammy's gender and Sammy may actually be a woman, but I've got the name
> right, at least.
>                 -Helen/Aidan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Merchant of Venice
> 
> > You know, Helen, I tried to remember it but I just can't. It was a
> > woman and I want to say that both her first and last names started
> > with "C" but I'm just not certain. We went out to dinner after and had
> > a wonderful time and I simply cannot remember after our date. I
> > believe that the website is themerchantofvenice or merchantofvenice or
> > something, so perhaps a google search will give that info. I have to
> > leave and be somewhere in about half an hour or I'd do the search.
> >
> > LynnD
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:33:18 -0500, Helen  Pinto <hpinto@mindspring.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Sylvia wrote:
> >>
> >> > Do you know who the costume designer was?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Sammy Sheldon.  His CV is here: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1234336/   He
> >> hasn't done much, at least in film.  (NB: Canterbury Tales is modern
> >> dress,
> >> very liberal adaptation, but good and currently running on BBCAmerica.)
> >>
> >>                     -Helen/Aidan
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> h-costume mailing list
> >> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
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> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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No problem.  I see lots and stay through the credits.  (And Pacino didn't 
spit anywhere near as much as he did as Richard at the Public around ten 
years ago...)
                  -Helen/Aidan


> And that's exactly why I don't trust my memory so well when it comes
> to names. C, S, they're not even close. And I see maybe three movies
> in a year, so I don't recognize the name at all.


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Subject: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
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I received an email today asking my advice as follows. I have no idea, but
thought someone here might be able to help her. Reply to me or on-list and
I'll forward the responses. 

--Robin
---------- Forwarded message ----------

I am attempting to locate copies of the first three NESAT volumes edited
by Lise Bender Jörgensen :

1) Textilsymposium Neumünster (NESAT 1), with Klaus Tidow, Neumünster 1982

2) Archaeological Textiles (NESAT 2), with B. Magnus & E. Munksgaard,
Copenhagen 1988. ISBN: 8750369539; Series ISSN: 0901-6732

3) Textiles in Northern Archaeology, Textile Symposium in York, North
European Symposium for Archaeological Textiles Monograph 3, NESAT III;
London Archetype Publications, 1990; ISBN 1-873132-05-0

They are not available, even for interlibrary loan in the USA.  Would you
have any suggestions as to where I could locate these? I would gladly
purchase copies.

-----end forward-----


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Subject: [h-cost] Paris Costume Museums - someone visiting?
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Sorry, but I have gone brain dead. Was it someone on this list who was 
asking about information on costume visiting in Paris?

If so, I have finally remembered the name of the museum which is 
principally on costume - Musee Galliera, which is the Museum of Costume and 
Fashion. However, there is a new exhibition going on in March, so it may be 
closed for a while.

http://www.paris-touristoffice.com/cgi-bin/otp_v2.cgi?Target=va2/sejour/musee/detailmusee&ID=294&type=Museum&user_idsession=70833371472581453702604572524803

If not, I apologise for taking your time, and will have to rack my brains 
as to who I was "talking" to.

Suzi


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Re: looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat
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Looking at the glazed-wool quilts on 
<http://www.bidwellhousemuseum.org/Collections/Quilts_overview_of_collection.htm>
what strikes me is that the visual effect is similar to that of ironing 
(not *pressing*, but *ironing*) at high pressure, at a higher heat setting 
than is generally recommended for the fabric. In my limited experience, 
this is particularly true of modern worsted wools that have been blended 
with a touch of polyester or nylon, and/or which have been lightly starched 
with brand-name spray-starch. (Starch, lightly iron until the starch is no 
longer sticky, then bear down on the iron while moving it around the cloth.)

FWIW, I usually end up putting a lot of pressure on an iron set to high 
temp and high steam for almost ALL fibers in order to get the wrinkles out 
to my satisfaction...



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Here is the second title:  I will  try to  find the others

Sg

 

  Location Library                                       Code    

 

   MA       HARVARD UNIV, TOZZER LIBR                     TOZ    

   MD       WALTERS ART MUSEUM                            WL2    

   EU       BRITISH LIBR                                  BRI    

   EU       CAMBRIDGE UNIV                                CUD    

   EU       UNIV OF OXFORD                                EQO    

 

Record for Item: "Archaeological textiles :..."( Libraries with Item )

 

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Title:     Archaeological textiles :

report from the 2nd NESAT symposium 1.-4. V. 1984 /

Author(s):         Jørgensen, Lise Bender. ; Magnus, Bente. ; 
Munksgaard, Elisabeth.

Conf Author(s):            NESAT Symposium  (2nd : 1984 : Bergen, Norway)

Publication:       København K, Danmark : Arkaeologisk institut, 
Københavns universitet,

Year:    1988

Description:      272 p. : ill. ; 30 cm.

Language:         English

Series: Arkaeologiske skrifter,; 2;

Standard No:    ISBN: 8750369539; Series ISSN: 0901-6732 ;

 

            SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:       Textile fabrics, Prehistoric -- Europe -- Congresses.

Geographic:      Europe -- Antiquities -- Congresses.

Note(s):            English and German./ Includes bibliographical 
references.

Responsibility:   [editors, Lise Bender Jørgensen, Bente Magnus & 
Elisabeth Munksgaard].

Material Type: Conference publication (cnp)

Document Type:           Book

Entry:   19881207

Update:            20041129

Accession No: OCLC: 18850659

 

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The 3rd title:

Title: Textiles in northern archaeology : NESAT III, textile symposium 
in York, 6-9 May 1987 Author: North European Symposium for 
Archaeological Textiles

 

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Location           Library             Code

AZ       In your library ARIZONA STATE UNIV         AZS 

AZ       UNIV OF ARIZONA AZU 

CA       LOS ANGELES CNTY MUS OF ART          CAM 

NM      UNIV OF NEW MEXICO      IQU 

 

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Title:     Textiles in northern archaeology :

NESAT III, textile symposium in York, 6-9 May 1987 /

Author(s):         Rogers, Penelope Walton. ; Wild, John Peter.

Conf Author(s):            North European Symposium for Archaeological 
Textiles  (3rd : 1987 : York, England)

Publication:       London : Archetype Publications,

Year:    1990

Description:      231 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

Language:         English

Series: Monograph / North European Symposium for Archaeological Textiles 
;; 3; Variation: Monograph (North European Symposium for Archaeological 
Textiles) ;; 3

Standard No:    ISBN: 1873132050

            SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:       Textile fabrics -- Europe, Northern -- Congresses.

Textile fabrics -- History -- Congresses.

Archaeology -- Europe, Northern -- Congresses.

Identifier:          Textile products; Archaeology; Europe

Note(s):            Includes bibliographical references (p. 229-231).

Class Descriptors:         LC: GN432 N67 1987; Dewey: 746.094

Other Titles:      NESAT III.

Responsibility:   edited by Penelope Walton and John-Peter Wild.

Material Type: Conference publication (cnp)

Document Type:           Book

Entry:   19910416

Update:            20010713

Accession No: OCLC: 24721000

Database:         WorldCat



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*The first title:  Note that the date does not match the request, but 
the place, name etc does...???
 
*

* IN       UNIV OF NOTRE DAME                            **IND**     *

*   PA       BRYN MAWR **COL**                                 BMC     *

*   VT       UNIV OF **VERMONT**, BAILEY LIBR                  VTU     *

* *

*Record for Item: "Textilsymposium Neumünste..."( Libraries with Item )*

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*Title:    Textilsymposium Neumünster, 4.-7. 5. 1993 (NESAT V) :*

*archäologische Textilfunde = archaeological textiles /*

*Author(s):         Jaacks, Gisela. ; Tidow, Klaus. *

*Conf Author(s):             North European Symposium for Archaeological 
Textiles  (5th : 1993 : **Neumünster**, **Germany**)*

*Publication:     [**Neumünster**, **Germany**] : Textilmuseum Neumünster,*

*Year:    1994*

*Description:     264 p. : ill., maps ; 24 cm.*

*Language:       German; Contributions in German and English.*

*            SUBJECT(S)*

*Descriptor:       Textile fabrics, Ancient -- Congresses. *

*Textile fabrics, Medieval -- Congresses. *

*Note(s):            Includes bibliographical references.*

*Class Descriptors:        LC: TS1767*

*Other Titles:     Archäologische Textilfunde; Archaeological textiles; 
Textilsymposium Neumünster*

*Responsibility:             [Redaktion, Gisela Jaacks und Klaus Tidow].*

*Material Type:             Conference publication (cnp)*

*Document Type:          Book*

*Entry:   19970224*

*Update:            19990908*

*Accession No: OCLC: 36437571*

*Database:        WorldCat*

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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Wicked Frau wrote:

> Here is the second title:  I will  try to  find the others
> 
>    MA       HARVARD UNIV, TOZZER LIBR                     TOZ    
>    MD       WALTERS ART MUSEUM                            WL2    
>    EU       BRITISH LIBR                                  BRI    
>    EU       CAMBRIDGE UNIV                                CUD    
>    EU       UNIV OF OXFORD                                EQO    

I asked her myself about ILL, and just got a reply from her. She says that
she's already located the copies in the ILL system.  Harvard and the
Walters do not loan their copies, and she can't get international copies
through her library system. That's why she wrote me for ideas on where to
go now.

If anyone has a lead on where she can find, buy, or borrow a copy through
other means, I'll pass it on to her.

--Robin

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cschmitt@ genteelarts.comRe: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat    4k
 
 Has anyone else had trouble with this orginal message?
I can neither open it nor delete it. It just sits in my message queue as an unopened message, but every time I try to delete it - the subject being of no especial interest to me personally, Yahoo just tells me...... "We didn't understand your request.The request sent by your browser was missing some information. Please try again.If the problem persists, we suggest that you close all browser windows, relaunch your browser, and log into Yahoo! Mail again." Shutting down and relaunching my browser has no effect.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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THat is one of the reasons I lurk both this list and 18c womens list.  I'm interested in both.  So many of the 18 cent reenactors I come into contact with may be doing 18 cent stuff and wearing 18c clothes, but don't LOOK 18cent

So many people on this list look 18 cent, just like they stepped out of a painting.

ANd no, I'm not near 18c looking enough, but I'm still trying, and listening to everyone

Mia in Charlotte

 

1. Re: glazed wool (Lauren Walker)


And also I must apologize -- I forget that historical costume may be
interested primarily in re-creating a look. I'm kind of obsessed with
re-creating the actual technology.

Lauren

> 


		
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From: "Joanna" <joanna.hobbins@gmail.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:44:01 -0500
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Hi Robin,

There's not much to be done about the 1st two volumes given the information
below.  But there are plenty of other choices for volume 3.

ON MCMASTER UNIV

AZ ARIZONA STATE UNIV 
AZ UNIV OF ARIZONA  
CA LOS ANGELES CNTY MUS OF ART
CT YALE UNIV LIBR
DC SMITHSONIAN INST 
FL FLORIDA STATE UNIV
HI UNIV OF HAWAII AT MANOA
MA AMERICAN TEXTILE HIST MUS LIBR 
MA HARVARD UNIV, TOZZER LIBR
NJ PRINCETON UNIV
NM UNIV OF NEW MEXICO
NY CORNELL UNIV
NY NEW YORK UNIV   
NY SUNY AT BUFFALO 
PA UNIV OF PENNSYLVANIA
VA COLONIAL WILLIAMSBURG FOUND RES LIBR
WA UNIV OF WASHINGTON LIBR

Has she checkted the usual suspects for second hand books?

Cheers,

Joanna

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Robin
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:09 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
I asked her myself about ILL, and just got a reply from her. She says that
she's already located the copies in the ILL system.  Harvard and the Walters
do not loan their copies, and she can't get international copies through her
library system. That's why she wrote me for ideas on where to go now.

If anyone has a lead on where she can find, buy, or borrow a copy through
other means, I'll pass it on to her.

--Robin

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>  Has anyone else had trouble with this orginal message?
> I can neither open it nor delete it. 

This sort of behavior often indicates the message has somehow gotten 
corrupted on your own computer.  I'm not seeing any peculiar behavior 
from it.  Try rebooting (if you haven't already.)

cv
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Joanna wrote:

> There's not much to be done about the 1st two volumes given the
> information below.  But there are plenty of other choices for volume
> 3.

She apparently is trying for ILL on that one; success will depend on her
local library system, which doesn't sound too promising from what she
said. Thus her efforts to find a copy to buy.

Thanks, though, for the list; I'll pass it to her in case her own library
didn't give her that info.

--Robin

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Status: RO

> 
>  Harvard and the
> Walters do not loan their copies, and she can't get international copies
> through her library system. That's why she wrote me for ideas on where to
> go now.
> 
> If anyone has a lead on where she can find, buy, or borrow a copy through
> other means, I'll pass it on to her.


If there is a particular article in each issue that she wants, there is 
a possibility that the pages can be photocopied (usually for a fee) if 
the actual issue cannot be borrowed.

The hard way to do it would be to contact a student at one of those 
institutions and pay them to make the copies for her. I had to do that 
once or twice as a student myself, but the internet was a much smaller 
place back then.



Dawn

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From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:06:05 -0600
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Status: RO

I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History pattern
for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote). I want
to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern (this seems
to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The Great
Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
 
Anybody?
 

*******************************************************************

Rebecca Schmitt

aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence

Bristol Renaissance Faire

 

My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash

*******************************************************************

 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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Status: RO

At 18:06 18/01/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History pattern
>for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote). I want
>to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern (this seems
>to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The Great
>Pattern Review did not include this pattern.


Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use the 
original?

Suzi


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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:34:49 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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Status: RO

Suzi Clarke wrote:

> At 18:06 18/01/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History 
>> pattern
>> for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote).
>
>
> Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use 
> the original?


Because scaling up and re-sizing patterns is a pain in the arse, 
especially if one isn't terribly experienced?

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
----------------------------- 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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Status: RO

At 13:34 19/01/2005 +1300, you wrote:
>Suzi Clarke wrote:
>
>>At 18:06 18/01/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>>I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History pattern
>>>for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote).
>>
>>
>>Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use the 
>>original?
>
>
>Because scaling up and re-sizing patterns is a pain in the arse, 
>especially if one isn't terribly experienced?


I didn't know how to scale up patterns when I started - my husband used to 
do it for me. Now I never use commercial patterns for period stuff. If you 
are lucky enough to be able to drape, that is even better, but I understand 
that some people don't want to. I just resent people taking patterns from 
other people's research and making commercial patterns from them without 
permission. Maybe Reconstructing History don't do that, but I have never 
seen the 1598 corset anywhere except in Arnold.

Suzi


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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050119002321.0149d9a0@127.0.0.1><5.1.0.14.2.20050119002321.0149d9a0@127.0.0.1>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:59:11 -0600
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I don't know about this specific pattern, but I do know that Kass McGann 
most certainly does her own research. Tons and tons of research.

-E House


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
>
> Maybe Reconstructing History don't do that, but I have never seen the 1598 
> corset anywhere except in Arnold.
>
> Suzi

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From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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Maybe because it's easier to just use a pattern in the right size, 
rather than reinvent the wheel trying to resize an Arnold sketch? 
There's a lot of folks out there who don't have a lot of experience with 
flat patterning, or who just don't have the time to experiment.
Using a pattern or creating your own would be one faction in deciding 
how much work a person wants to put into a project, and where they want 
to concentrate....
--Sue, who doesn't do 17th c. stuff, but who has always wanted one of 
those jackets! (or maybe two--one with blackwork, and one with 
polychrome embroidery)

Suzi Clarke wrote:

> At 18:06 18/01/2005 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History 
>> pattern
>> for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote). I 
>> want
>> to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern (this 
>> seems
>> to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The Great
>> Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
> 
> 
> 
> Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use the 
> original?
> 
> Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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In a message dated 1/18/2005 8:41:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:

> There's a lot of folks out there who don't have a lot of experience with 
> flat patterning

And never will if they keep buying commercial patterns.....

I'd get the pattern if your like 3 sizes different from the example in 
Arnold. If you're close to the original garment [like no more than 3 to 5" than the 
original]....then get one of those cardboard cutting thingies gridded off in 
square inches and start plotting points. Adjust the size to your measurements 
and make a mock up. You'll love yourself for doing so. You'll have a deeper 
understanding of the garment and how cloth works on the human body.

Next...drape a 1930s evening gown...you'll love yourself for that too.
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Greetings--

> Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use the
> original?

>I just resent people taking patterns from
>other people's research and making commercial patterns from them without
>permission. Maybe Reconstructing History don't do that, but I have never
>seen the 1598 corset anywhere except in Arnold.

Be careful about those assumptions. I certainly wouldn't say "all their
patterns" are based on Janet Arnold--certainly not the Irish patterns (where
Kass has actually looked at many of the originals in person and based her
work on them).  And having heard Kass speak, I know the quality of her
research and original work.  Janet Arnold didn't own those extant garments,
you know, and there are others who have seen them in person and worked with
them.

Susan


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
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On Tuesday 18 January 2005 2:44 pm, Joanna wrote:
[snip]

> Has she checkted the usual suspects for second hand books?
 
Can't say whether Robin's friend has, but I have, and the last time I saw any 
of those three show up was over a year ago.  If only I had been able to 
afford it then!  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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At 06:06 PM 1/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History pattern
>for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote). I want
>to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern (this seems
>to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The Great
>Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
>
>Anybody?
>  *******************************************************************
>Rebecca Schmitt
>aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
>Bristol Renaissance Faire


Hi Rebecca

Kass has a mail list for her patterns, and I would think there is a greater 
chance of people on that list of someone who's made up that pattern, and 
can give you an honest opinion about it.

http://reconstructinghistory.com/mailman/listinfo/patterns_reconstructinghistory.com

Good luck. And if you do decide to use her pattern, please post a review 
here or on the Great Pattern Review for the rest as you blaze the trail.

Kimiko



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:07:07 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
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Status: RO

NESAT 3 was still available for purchase through David Brown/Oxbow as 
of only a few years ago (when I purchased my copy).

<http://www.oxbowbooks.com/>

I wish we could convince NESAT to let someone re-print the first two volumes.

Heather
-- 
****
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@earthlink.net
****
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] pattern review?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:13:58 -0600
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I have not used any Reconstructing History patterns yet but I will be as I
am waiting with baited breath for the Cranch gown. I have four sets of
material saved for it. I have heard from two who made the Irish dress and
chemise with no problems. I have used Medieval Miscellania which is why I am
not going to purchase their "German" frau dresses until after I get the RH
gown as I hear the Kass's instruction are readable and might help me
decipher MM's instructions.
Though I guess I have more experience with patterns now to recognize the
flubs in the pattern and recognize the oopses in the instructions with MM.
My experience with MM was years ago and if I had not had such a bad
experience with them I wouldn't have started adapting modern patterns.

De




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On Tuesday 18 January 2005 10:07 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> NESAT 3 was still available for purchase through David Brown/Oxbow as
> of only a few years ago (when I purchased my copy).
>
> <http://www.oxbowbooks.com/>

I have seen NESAT 3 and 4 on and off at David Brown Books--last time I checked 
they only had NESAT 5 and 6, which I already have.
>
> I wish we could convince NESAT to let someone re-print the first two
> volumes.

Me too!


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:07:21 -0500
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> My thought was to paint
> it with fabric paint - but there is the concern whether or not the paint
would
> hold up to the weather and washing.

Okay, I know I'm very late for this, but latex paint will hold out to
weather and washing (yes, wall paint). You can use real fabric paint, it's
more expensive but IMO give nicer results (and te fabric remains more
flexible), or regular crafts acrylic paint mixed with fabric medium and
fixed with a hot iron.

After they're fixed (or even before, as anyone who dropped some acrylic
paint on a piece of clothing found out), they will stay there even after the
fabric all around it has fallen to pieces :-)

I've heard from some people that they use latex outdoors paint because it
stands up to UV and weather better. I haven't tested it myself.
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At 21:36 18/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings--
>
> > Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not use the
> > original?
>
> >I just resent people taking patterns from
> >other people's research and making commercial patterns from them without
> >permission. Maybe Reconstructing History don't do that, but I have never
> >seen the 1598 corset anywhere except in Arnold.
>
>Be careful about those assumptions. I certainly wouldn't say "all their
>patterns" are based on Janet Arnold--certainly not the Irish patterns (where
>Kass has actually looked at many of the originals in person and based her
>work on them).  And having heard Kass speak, I know the quality of her
>research and original work.  Janet Arnold didn't own those extant garments,
>you know, and there are others who have seen them in person and worked with
>them.


I didn't make assumptions, if you read what I wrote - I said "seem". 
Perhaps I phrased it badly and should have said that many of the patterns 
can also be found in Janet Arnold. I am aware that Kass does huge amounts 
of research, as I am providing her with some information myself.

Suzi, who didn't mean to offend, but gets indignant on other people's behalf.


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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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AlbertCat@aol.com wrote....

> ....then get one of those cardboard cutting thingies  gridded off in 
> square inches and start plotting points. 

HA!

I wish!  Try finding *anything* still gridded off in inches instead of
centimetres in the UK and you'll have an exercise in futility!

Teddy

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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Hi the list,
I asked 18th century womens list, but i dont think many of them make 
gentlemens wear..
I desided to make my duchesse suit plain with only silver lace. I have other 
suits made with embroidery and not all of them should be embroidered :-) 
This would also make it possible for me to have it finished quickly.
I ordered real button moulds for the buttons this time, and i wondered wich 
fabric should i go and buy for the linning? Satin is silk and sky blue. I 
also got some real nice knee buckles, reproduktion ones, so i would like the 
whole to be as original as possible.
I updated my site with latest pictures of the dark blue suit with the roses 
in ribbonwork. I have finished the left side.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/setasilkpaint.htm
In the future i shall call this the "rosenkavalier" :-)

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint


> After they're fixed (or even before, as anyone who dropped some acrylic
> paint on a piece of clothing found out), they will stay there even after 
> the
> fabric all around it has fallen to pieces :-)
>
> I've heard from some people that they use latex outdoors paint because it
> stands up to UV and weather better. I haven't tested it myself.

I have. It does. I use latex outdoor house paint for the floorcloth 
backgrounds, acrylic paint for the designs, and cover the whole shebang with 
a clear acrylic varnish I found at WalMart. They hold up to being used 
outdoors, in early spring, in Pennsylvania, so they should survive anything!

Dianne
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:13 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] pattern review?


>I have not used any Reconstructing History patterns yet but I will be as I
> am waiting with baited breath for the Cranch gown. I have four sets of
> material saved for it. I have heard from two who made the Irish dress and
> chemise with no problems. I have used Medieval Miscellania which is why I 
> am
> not going to purchase their "German" frau dresses until after I get the RH
> gown as I hear the Kass's instruction are readable and might help me
> decipher MM's instructions.

I have the loose gown pattern, which I have not made up yet--waiting to get 
just the right shade of silk to line the wool I am using--and will be one of 
the testers of the Cranach gown. The loose gown pattern is very readable, 
and I don't foresee any problems with making it up.

Dianne
> Though I guess I have more experience with patterns now to recognize the
> flubs in the pattern and recognize the oopses in the instructions with MM.
> My experience with MM was years ago and if I had not had such a bad
> experience with them I wouldn't have started adapting modern patterns.

I have MM's Italian patterns, for both men and women. I have no problems 
with the women's, but I tried to make the cioppa out of the men's, and threw 
the blasted thing against the wall. Next time, I'm just going to put the 
instructions away and figure it out on my own.

Dianne


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My only experience was with two folks who had used her Irish gown 
pattern.  Both had terrible fitting  problems (and in spite of my 
continuous diatribe-"make a mock up, make a mock up"-didn't).  Did Kass 
use pattern testers with her patterns as Margo did?  If so, maybe she 
has a discussion group which might help you out if you need help.  And 
if you are new to historic costuming, a generic pattern, no matter how 
well done may look awful on you without proper fitting......

Sg

Oh, and as anyone who has sewn directly from Arnold knows....you may 
still have to do a lot of fiddling to make anything work-(might want to 
read the Annotated Arnold if you haven't tried anything yourself)---She 
may have been a wonderful researcher, but I am not so sure she was a 
great reconstructioninst.  (whoops did I dare say that out loud?)

"Do a mockup, Do a mockup"

>  
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:32:19 -0500
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This is lovely as always.  I like the shadings of the ribbon with the blues
of the waistcoat and jacket.  A question:  did you make the buttonholes
before you completed the embroidery of the waistcoat, or is this to be done
later?  In any event, the spacing are so good with the scale of the design
of the embroidery.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:00 AM
Subject: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


> Hi the list,
> I asked 18th century womens list, but i dont think many of them make
> gentlemens wear..
> I desided to make my duchesse suit plain with only silver lace. I have
other
> suits made with embroidery and not all of them should be embroidered :-)
> This would also make it possible for me to have it finished quickly.
> I ordered real button moulds for the buttons this time, and i wondered
wich
> fabric should i go and buy for the linning? Satin is silk and sky blue. I
> also got some real nice knee buckles, reproduktion ones, so i would like
the
> whole to be as original as possible.
> I updated my site with latest pictures of the dark blue suit with the
roses
> in ribbonwork. I have finished the left side.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/setasilkpaint.htm
> In the future i shall call this the "rosenkavalier" :-)
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wicked Frau" <wickedfrau@earthlink.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?


> My only experience was with two folks who had used her Irish gown pattern. 
> Both had terrible fitting  problems (and in spite of my continuous 
> diatribe-"make a mock up, make a mock up"-didn't).  Did Kass use pattern 
> testers with her patterns as Margo did?  If so, maybe she has a discussion 
> group which might help you out if you need help.  And if you are new to 
> historic costuming, a generic pattern, no matter how well done may look 
> awful on you without proper fitting......

She does use testers. As I said, I will be testing the Cranach pattern, and 
since I have never made a German gown before, if anything is not clear, I 
will be letting Kass know.
Any pattern needs a mockup before fitting, no matter who produces it. And I 
have never gotten a Margo Anderson bodice to fit me yet. I can get them to 
fit other people, but not myself! This could very well be, though, that I 
can't get anyone to help my fit it. My husband doesn't have a clue, and I 
can't get to my shire's regular sewing night.

Dianne


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric paint
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:39:27 +0000
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Is that a spray on acrylic finish or a paint on version? Was it from the Hardware dept or the craft dept? I'm now thinking of doing a floorcloth now!

Crissy

 
> 
> > After they're fixed (or even before, as anyone who dropped some acrylic
> > paint on a piece of clothing found out), they will stay there even after 
> > the
> > fabric all around it has fallen to pieces :-)
> >
> > I've heard from some people that they use latex outdoors paint because it
> > stands up to UV and weather better. I haven't tested it myself.
> 
> I have. It does. I use latex outdoor house paint for the floorcloth 
> backgrounds, acrylic paint for the designs, and cover the whole shebang with 
> a clear acrylic varnish I found at WalMart. They hold up to being used 
> outdoors, in early spring, in Pennsylvania, so they should survive anything!
> 
> Dianne
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


> This is lovely as always.  I like the shadings of the ribbon with the 
> blues
> of the waistcoat and jacket.  A question:  did you make the buttonholes
> before you completed the embroidery of the waistcoat, or is this to be 
> done
> later?  In any event, the spacing are so good with the scale of the design
> of the embroidery.
> Kathleen

Hi Kathleen,
I am going to make the buttonholes after the embroidery.
My impression is that buttonholes should be made with the linning even if 
they are false buttonholes.

Bjarne 


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I have only been on this list for a few days, but have caught several
references to MM and someone named Kass and their patterns.  Is there a
website for these if so would someone send them to me?  I am a member of
SCA and my time period is early 1300's.  My favorite style is the
cotehardie and/orhouppeland.  I have found several site that tell me how
to do these, a couple that show me, but since I am a very new begginer
sewer I really need a pattern to start from.  Any help would be
appreciated.  Lady Theresa
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From: Lena Strid <lstrid@mglarc.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] patterns
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Status: RO

Kass McGann's page: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com

If you are, as you say, a very beginner sewer, I would recommend to start on
Kass's beginner's pattern. Only rectangles and triangles, and _very_ easy to
sew. It won't be a cotehardie, but can be used as a smock, or as a
lower-class woman's dress in the early 14th century.

Welcome to the list!

/Lena (also one of the medievalists)

-----Original Message-----
From: Theresa Threadgill [mailto:tthreadgill@connally.org] 
Sent: 19 January 2005 13:55
To: h-costume@net.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] patterns

I have only been on this list for a few days, but have caught several
references to MM and someone named Kass and their patterns.  Is there a
website for these if so would someone send them to me?  I am a member of
SCA and my time period is early 1300's.  My favorite style is the
cotehardie and/orhouppeland.  I have found several site that tell me how
to do these, a couple that show me, but since I am a very new begginer
sewer I really need a pattern to start from.  Any help would be
appreciated.  Lady Theresa
_______________________________________________
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From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not,
	was pattern review?
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> From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
> Their patterns all seem based on Janet Arnold anyway, so why not
> use the 
> original?
(snip)

As someone else has already said, scaling and/or draping our own
pattern is an enormous pain -- and even for those of us who KNOW how
to do it, sometimes it's just not worth our time if someone else has
done the work for us.

Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability.  Some
people have a great musical gift; many people have a little musical
ability, and can develop that further with training.  And some people
will always be tone-deaf.  There will always be a some people who
will never be able to drape or scale garments.  You probably won't
find them on this list, however :) 

> I didn't know how to scale up patterns when I started - my husband
> used to 
> do it for me. Now I never use commercial patterns for period stuff.
> If you 
> are lucky enough to be able to drape, that is even better, but I
> understand 
> that some people don't want to. 

Or don't have the time.  I agree, learning to drape is a good thing,
but it's just one tool in the repertoire of a good costumer.

> I just resent people taking
> patterns from 
> other people's research and making commercial patterns from them
> without 
> permission. Maybe Reconstructing History don't do that, but I have
> never 
> seen the 1598 corset anywhere except in Arnold.
> 
> Suzi

Someone has already stated that Arnold didn't own the original
pattern idea.  Kass's patterns, from what I've seen of them, are
well-documented using multiple sources.  Kudos to her for taking the
information and making it available to those who don't have the time
or talent to do it themselves.  She's done a lot of work, drafting
and scaling these patterns for multiple sizes.  That's not anything
to sneeze at.

I'm working on a couple of ideas for period knitting patterns.  These
items were commonly worn, and nobody could copyright the  basic
concepts -- however, I can interpret and document them for modern
knitters, and I can copyright my particular descriptions of how to
get the desired results.  If someone were to use the same basic
information and come up with their own directions, well, they're free
to do that!

-- Mara

=====
---------------------
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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At 14:41 19/01/2005 +0100, you wrote:

>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
>
>
>>This is lovely as always.  I like the shadings of the ribbon with the blues
>>of the waistcoat and jacket.  A question:  did you make the buttonholes
>>before you completed the embroidery of the waistcoat, or is this to be done
>>later?  In any event, the spacing are so good with the scale of the design
>>of the embroidery.
>>Kathleen
>
>Hi Kathleen,
>I am going to make the buttonholes after the embroidery.
>My impression is that buttonholes should be made with the linning even if 
>they are false buttonholes.


My original 1780's waistcoat front, embroidered using the tambour method, 
has the buttonholes already embroidered in. The button covers are also 
pre-embroidered, and all the pieces are embroidered ready to make up.

Suzi


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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not, was pattern review?
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Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> corbiegirl@yahoo.com 19/01/2005 14:18:19 >>> wrote:
>As someone else has already said, scaling and/or draping our own
>pattern is an enormous pain -- and even for those of us who KNOW how
>to do it, sometimes it's just not worth our time if someone else has
>done the work for us.

>Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
>ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
>3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
>some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability. [snip]
>There will always be a some people who will never be able to drape
>or scale garments.  You probably won'tfind them on this list, however
:) 

Oh, yes - I'm one! I had to buy one of Kass's patterns in order to make
myself a Hollar-style cap. It only consists of, in effect, a rectangle
and a circle, but I was always too dim to work out how to make the
conceptual leap between 2 and 3 dimensions. 





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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not, was
	pattern review?
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>
>As someone else has already said, scaling and/or draping our own
>pattern is an enormous pain -- and even for those of us who KNOW how
>to do it, sometimes it's just not worth our time if someone else has
>done the work for us.
>
>Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
>ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
>3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
>some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability.  Some
>people have a great musical gift; many people have a little musical
>ability, and can develop that further with training.  And some people
>will always be tone-deaf.  There will always be a some people who
>will never be able to drape or scale garments.  You probably won't
>find them on this list, however :)
>  but I
> > understand
> > that some people don't want to.
>
>Or don't have the time.  I agree, learning to drape is a good thing,
>but it's just one tool in the repertoire of a good costumer.

I am sorry to disagree, yet again, with a fellow list member, but from 
purely a personal view I always find it is quicker to drape a garment than 
to use a paper pattern. As a tutor, I have found that some people do not 
have the spatial ability to drape a pattern, some cannot comprehend a grid 
system, and some cannot use paper patterns - it takes all sorts!

Suzi






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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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> > ....then get one of those cardboard cutting thingies  gridded off 
> in 
> > square inches and start plotting points. 
> 
> HA!
> 
> I wish!  Try finding *anything* still gridded off in inches instead 
> of
> centimetres in the UK and you'll have an exercise in futility!
> 
> Teddy

Teddy, do you have any shops around your area that carry role playing
games?  I've seen blank "battle maps" for RPGs gridded in one inch
squares -- it's the standard grid for Dungeons and Dragons.  The vinyl
maps would be way too expensive to use as pattern layout grids, but at
least one company makes the blank maps in coated paper.  You'd probably
have to tape several sheets together, though.

Leah
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From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] period knitting patterns,
	was Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not, was pattern review?
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 >I'm working on a couple of ideas for period knitting patterns.  These
items were commonly worn, and nobody could copyright the  basic concepts --
however, I can interpret and document them for modern knitters, and I can
copyright my particular descriptions of how to get the desired results.  If
someone were to use the same basic information and come up with their own
directions, well, they're free to do that!

-- Mara

=====
---------------------
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

ooooooooooooh - you'll let us all know when those knitting patterns come
out, now, won't you?


*******************************************************************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
Bristol Renaissance Faire
 
My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash
*******************************************************************


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns
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MM is different from Kass McGann; it stands for Mediaeval Miscellanea, which 
is the group that put out the 'Period Patterns' series of patterns:
http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm

-E House 

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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:23:46 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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Oh WOW!!! It's stunning!

I need to ask a really silly question--what is the white stuff you
embroidered on in pictures 4 and 5?

Arlys

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:00:07 +0100 "Bjarne og Leif Drews"
<drewscph@post12.tele.dk> writes:
> Hi the list,
> I asked 18th century womens list, but i dont think many of them make 
> 
> gentlemens wear..
> I desided to make my duchesse suit plain with only silver lace. I 
> have other 
> suits made with embroidery and not all of them should be embroidered 
> :-) 
> This would also make it possible for me to have it finished quickly.
> I ordered real button moulds for the buttons this time, and i 
> wondered wich 
> fabric should i go and buy for the linning? Satin is silk and sky 
> blue. I 
> also got some real nice knee buckles, reproduktion ones, so i would 
> like the 
> whole to be as original as possible.
> I updated my site with latest pictures of the dark blue suit with 
> the roses 
> in ribbonwork. I have finished the left side.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/setasilkpaint.htm
> In the future i shall call this the "rosenkavalier" :-)
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:13:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not,
	was pattern review?
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> >Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
> >ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
> >3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
> >some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability. 
> [snip]

Have we met? ;)

I'm a lifelong musician who takes tons of costuming classes and STILL
can't figure out how flat fabric becomes curved fabric to fit on
cylindrical bodies. Then again, math and music aren't processed in the
same hemisphere of the brain. I wonder if that's got anything to do with
it.

I can do embroidery. But it is very politely flat. :)

And I very much enjoy this list. I've learned tons of things from being
on it, and had the immense pleasure of seeing many of the wonderful
things the folks here create. :-)


Arlys


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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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I need some ideas here. I'm working on a c1895 equipoise/Ferris Good Sense 
style corset, but foolishly agreed to make it out of cotton velvet. It's 
going to be gorgeous, but... the stupid fabric is SO BULKY that it causes 
all sorts of problems!

I've resolved all of them, except one: the buttonholes. This style of corset 
isn't meant for waist reduction; rather, it gives bust support and a firm 
foundation, so the front opening is generally closed with buttons rather 
than a busk clasp. However, due to the bulk of the velvet, the strip for the 
buttonholes is a bit less than 1/4" thick, even after I spent a great deal 
of time trying to figure out how to reduce the bulk as much as possible.

I've done several test runs, and here are the things that absolutely did not 
work: handsewn buttonholes of various sorts, machine sewn buttonholes also 
of various sorts, looped buttonholes (I'd have to remake almost the whole 
stupid thing), and putting in a busk anyway (ditto). Apart from the bulk, 
the main problem is fraying of the cotton velvet, and the secondary problem 
is that I just can't see my stitches in the very thick pile.

The closest I've come to a good result in my tests so far is a buttonhole 
bound in interfaced bias tape, but that adds even more bulk and I'm a bit 
worried that the customer won't be able to get the thing buttoned, with all 
this bulk! It takes forever because of the aforementioned problems, but it 
looks decent and matches the overall effect of the corset (which is pretty 
darn fussy, but has the same bias tape binding elsewhere).  However, I'd 
love it if anyone can suggest another solution, because this one isn't 
perfect and I'm a perfectionist! =} Also, I'm afraid if I spend too much 
more time with it, I'll put it through the document shredder.

-E House
(Moral of the story: cotton velvet? NOT suited for fussy pleated fanciness. 
...If I'd charged per hour on this, it'd cost ~$3500. AND IT'S STILL NOT 
DONE.) 

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From: Christine Robb <cedar@interlog.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 11:43:34AM -0600, E House wrote:
> rather than a busk clasp. However, due to the bulk of the velvet, the strip 
> for the buttonholes is a bit less than 1/4" thick, even after I spent a 
> great deal of time trying to figure out how to reduce the bulk as much as 
> possible.

Is there any way you can shave the pile off in hidden areas, or, worst
case, immediately around the buttonhole?


Christine
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From: historian@reconstructinghistory.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not,
	was pattern review?
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Quoting Cynthia J Ley <cley@juno.com>:

> > >Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
> > >ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
> > >3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
> > >some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability.
> > [snip]

And that's why I decided to start a company that produces patterns.  I have
taught many classes on draping and drafting your own patterns.  But still
people came from me and offered to pay me if I would draft a pattern for them. 
Some people can't do it.  Some people don't want to do it.  Some people don't
have the time to do it.  And some people do it and buy my patterns anyway to
see if their theories agree with mine.

It's all good. There's room in costuming for everyone!  =)


> I'm a lifelong musician who takes tons of costuming classes and STILL
> can't figure out how flat fabric becomes curved fabric to fit on
> cylindrical bodies. Then again, math and music aren't processed in the
> same hemisphere of the brain. I wonder if that's got anything to do with
> it.

Being able to look at a three dimensional piece and see what you have to do in
two dimensions to make that piece is definitely something you're born with, I
think.  You have it or you don't.  You can learn to "fake" it, but it's very
difficult.

> I can do embroidery. But it is very politely flat. :)

And I, Arlys, am, as my dear friend says, "Embroiderily impaired".  <WINK>

Kass McGann
Reconstructing History Patterns
http://reconstructinghistory.com
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I am one of those people who can't drape anything! I can fix almost anything mechanical, write a computer program in COBOL, and make my own spinning wheel - but I am DENSE when it comes to transfering 2D clothing patterns to 3D!!

Also my problem is that 99% of published patterns don't fit my extra long ladie's sz 11 body.

I am offering $$ for a person to make me a "sloper"?? - a fabric version of my body - so I can use it as a base for my garb.

Lady Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: historian@reconstructinghistory.com
> But still people came from me and offered to pay me if I would draft a pattern for them. 
> Some people can't do it.  Some people don't want to do it.  Some people don't have the time to do it.  And some people do it and buy my patterns anyway to see if their theories agree with mine.
> Kass McGann

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:45:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
formfunc@formfunction.org writes:

looped  buttonholes (I'd have to remake almost the whole 
stupid  thing),


Could you sew on the loop "tape" made for bridal wear?  It comes in  white, 
off white, and black, and could, I think, be dyed.  You could sew  the tape 
part on the underside with just the loops hanging off.
 
Ann Wass
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:58:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
historian@reconstructinghistory.com writes:

I've met  more than a few people who simply don't have the
> > >ability to  translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
> > >3-dimensional  garment. 
 
And I once knew an absolutely brilliant theatre costume designer who could  
drape anything in 3-D, but could not figure out how to do it as a flat pattern, 
 in 2-D.  Interesting because, as you observe, I know more people who have  
the opposite problem.
 
Ann Wass

 
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Hi,
I would forget about buttonholes if i were you and then make button loops in 
stead. Is this the right word? I am sure you know what i mean with this.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:43 PM
Subject: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes


>I need some ideas here. I'm working on a c1895 equipoise/Ferris Good Sense 
>style corset, but foolishly agreed to make it out of cotton velvet. It's 
>going to be gorgeous, but... the stupid fabric is SO BULKY that it causes 
>all sorts of problems!
>
> I've resolved all of them, except one: the buttonholes. This style of 
> corset isn't meant for waist reduction; rather, it gives bust support and 
> a firm foundation, so the front opening is generally closed with buttons 
> rather than a busk clasp. However, due to the bulk of the velvet, the 
> strip for the buttonholes is a bit less than 1/4" thick, even after I 
> spent a great deal of time trying to figure out how to reduce the bulk as 
> much as possible.
>
> I've done several test runs, and here are the things that absolutely did 
> not work: handsewn buttonholes of various sorts, machine sewn buttonholes 
> also of various sorts, looped buttonholes (I'd have to remake almost the 
> whole stupid thing), and putting in a busk anyway (ditto). Apart from the 
> bulk, the main problem is fraying of the cotton velvet, and the secondary 
> problem is that I just can't see my stitches in the very thick pile.
>
> The closest I've come to a good result in my tests so far is a buttonhole 
> bound in interfaced bias tape, but that adds even more bulk and I'm a bit 
> worried that the customer won't be able to get the thing buttoned, with 
> all this bulk! It takes forever because of the aforementioned problems, 
> but it looks decent and matches the overall effect of the corset (which is 
> pretty darn fussy, but has the same bias tape binding elsewhere). 
> However, I'd love it if anyone can suggest another solution, because this 
> one isn't perfect and I'm a perfectionist! =} Also, I'm afraid if I spend 
> too much more time with it, I'll put it through the document shredder.
>
> -E House
> (Moral of the story: cotton velvet? NOT suited for fussy pleated 
> fanciness. ...If I'd charged per hour on this, it'd cost ~$3500. AND IT'S 
> STILL NOT DONE.)
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
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I'm a mix between drafting and draping--I'm the sort who's very exacting 
with stuff like having the fabric's grain perfectly square, measurements 
being accurate to the 1/64", and so on.  So, while I consider draping to be 
an essential part of pattern-making, I always have to have things measured 
first, and I almost always begin with something largely fitted by the 
numbers before I 'drape'. It takes more time, but at least I save a TON on 
yardage!

-E, master of the 3.5 yd layout floor length cote with acres of hem. =} 

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Hello,

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I have a question:

I found a great ankle-length fake fur coat at a thrift store. After getting ringworm from god knows where I now wash or dry clean all clothing that comes into my house, but I'm at a complete loss what to do about this coat! The cleaning instructions say "clean by fur method. Do not brush, press or steam" which is not helpful to me at all.

Help?  It's a black fur with a pile about an inch and a half deep and a woven polyester-ish backing. The lining is standard coat polyester lining fabric.

Thanks!
      --Kathy K.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


>
> My original 1780's waistcoat front, embroidered using the tambour method, 
> has the buttonholes already embroidered in. The button covers are also 
> pre-embroidered, and all the pieces are embroidered ready to make up.
>
> Suzi


Hi Suzi,
Does this mean that the buttonholes are only embroidered on the front 
fabric?
Dont they go trough to the linning?
A waistcoat should be buttoned, and i dont understand how you just could 
embroider the buttonholes in the outer layer fabric, and not the linning?

Bjarne 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cynthia J Ley" <cley@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


> Oh WOW!!! It's stunning!
>
> I need to ask a really silly question--what is the white stuff you
> embroidered on in pictures 4 and 5?
>
> Arlys
Hi Arlys,
Thanks,
Well the white stuff is just the paper pattern i have drawed with the silk 
ribbon embroidery pattern on. It shows the waistcoat.

Bjarne 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AnnBWass@aol.com>
> Could you sew on the loop "tape" made for bridal wear?  It comes in 
> white,
> off white, and black, and could, I think, be dyed.  You could sew  the 
> tape
> part on the underside with just the loops hanging off.

Unfortunately, I don't think I could; the buttons really need to be visible 
from the front, and I just can't figure out any way to use loops without 
throwing everything else off completely.


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Christine Robb" <cedar@interlog.com>
> Is there any way you can shave the pile off in hidden areas, or, worst
> case, immediately around the buttonhole?

I might be able to do a bit, but not much, and perhaps not enough to help... 
the cotton velvet really does fray like crazy, and I'm afraid to do anything 
that will weaken it further.

-E House the difficult 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 1:45:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kathysmassmail@verizon.net writes:

The  cleaning instructions say "clean by fur method. Do not brush, press or 
steam"  which is not helpful to me at all.



That means you have to take it to a cleaner who will send it out to a  
special fur cleaner.  Costs a small fortune, but you don't have to do it  very often.
 
Ann Wass
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 1:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
formfunc@formfunction.org writes:

Unfortunately, I don't think I could; the buttons really need to be  visible 
from the front, and I just can't figure out any way to use loops  without 
throwing everything else off  completely.



Buttons are visible from the front--loops just barely overlap the other  
edge, where you sew the buttons.  Yes, this would add a little to the  
circumference, could you take it out on a seam?
 
If that won't work, good luck!!!!!!!
 
Ann Wass
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:11:24 -0600
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I just bought some fake fur to play with, and am about to machine wash it 
according the the instructions in Fabric Savvy (which says machine wash 
cold, dryer with no heat or shake it and air dry).  Wish me luck, and I'll 
tell you how it turns out. =}

-E House 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
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Welllllll, it depends on how much you want to spend on this thing.

Some fake furs do fine in the wash, with cool water.  But yours has a 
warning on it.  This might mean that it really needs the official fur 
method, or it might be that they were covering all the bases with 
needless cautions.

I'm agressively thrifty, so if it were mine, I'd probably wash it and 
hope for the best, but if you really love it, spend the money to do it 
right.  I know this list has discussed ways of cleaning fur yourself 
before; you could check the archives.

Ringworm (for you non-native anglophones, it's not a worm, it's a 
bacterial skin infection) might come from any source, if the conditions 
are right, like a cold.  The last time I got it, there hadn't been any 
obvious vector.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Would you like to spend a week at a cottage on the Maine coast? Family 
business: $642 for a week, beds for 5 people. More details and photos at 
http://www.virtue.to/cottages.html
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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The extra couldn't be taken out anywhere else without remaking it 
completely, because of the bust treatment.  Sigh. I dont think I could even 
take off the buttonhole strip without remaking it, because of what I had to 
do to reduce bulk elsewhere!  (Can you guess I'm incredibly frustrated with 
this corset?)

-E House 

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In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:45:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
formfunc@formfunction.org writes:

> However, due to the bulk of the velvet, the strip for the 
> buttonholes is a bit less than 1/4" thick, even after I spent a great deal 
> of time trying to figure out how to reduce the bulk as much as possible.
> 

Are you sure? Y'know the outside layer of the buttonhole side need be the 
only thing in velvet. It can be faced with thin cotton. And the underlap, with 
the buttons on it, can be cotton too. Make the cotton the same color...so it's 
not noticed. And the velvet need only overlap velvet maybe a quarter of an 
inch.

The bulk of the velvet is mostly the nap. There's no reason a regular 
"embroidered" button hole wouldn't work...especially if there's only one layer of 
velvet [and a layer of cotton facing]. Perhaps a buttonhole stitch could be wider 
than usual.

Albert "made many a Renn. costume out of curtain velvet" Cat
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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That makes sense to me.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
>
>
> > This is lovely as always.  I like the shadings of the ribbon with the
> > blues
> > of the waistcoat and jacket.  A question:  did you make the buttonholes
> > before you completed the embroidery of the waistcoat, or is this to be
> > done
> > later?  In any event, the spacing are so good with the scale of the
design
> > of the embroidery.
> > Kathleen
>
> Hi Kathleen,
> I am going to make the buttonholes after the embroidery.
> My impression is that buttonholes should be made with the linning even if
> they are false buttonholes.
>
> Bjarne
>
>
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 1:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

> would forget about buttonholes if i were you and then make button loops in 
> stead

This is a good idea...then the velvet can just butt up together and not 
overlap at all. 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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At 19:39 19/01/2005 +0100, you wrote:

>----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
>
>
>>
>>My original 1780's waistcoat front, embroidered using the tambour method, 
>>has the buttonholes already embroidered in. The button covers are also 
>>pre-embroidered, and all the pieces are embroidered ready to make up.
>>
>>Suzi
>
>
>Hi Suzi,
>Does this mean that the buttonholes are only embroidered on the front fabric?
>Dont they go trough to the linning?
>A waistcoat should be buttoned, and i dont understand how you just could 
>embroider the buttonholes in the outer layer fabric, and not the linning?


I only have the front fabric for this waistcoat. I will look at the earlier 
one I have, and see what it does - I think there are a lot of layers, and 
the buttonholes go through all the layers.

Suzi


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: OT: cleaning fake fur
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> I just bought some fake fur to play with, and am about to machine wash it 


Oooh, yes, I'd love to hear how it turns out!

Sadly, the budget is a bit stretched right now, so I will probably end up trying to wash it unless there is something else I can do. I have a front loading washing machine...so it may survive.  Does anyone have any other suggestions? Would freezing it for a period of time kill stuff?

The ringworm I think I got by petting a strange dog, but since it took a MONTH to get rid of it and I had to put bandages in really odd places, I am not keen to  repeat the experience!
      --Kathy K.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
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If I understand the problem, after the lining is in place, the buttonholes
would be basted on the lining side and then slit; then the edges of the slit
is folded in and tacked to the bound buttonhole of the top fabric.  At
least, this is how I finish this kind of buttonhole.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for linning of gentlemans jacket
>
>
> >
> > My original 1780's waistcoat front, embroidered using the tambour
method,
> > has the buttonholes already embroidered in. The button covers are also
> > pre-embroidered, and all the pieces are embroidered ready to make up.
> >
> > Suzi
>
>
> Hi Suzi,
> Does this mean that the buttonholes are only embroidered on the front
> fabric?
> Dont they go trough to the linning?
> A waistcoat should be buttoned, and i dont understand how you just could
> embroider the buttonholes in the outer layer fabric, and not the linning?
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Yes freezing it for about 24 hours should kill anything that is live,
but not sure if it will get the spores and ringworm is a fungus that can
be spread by spores.I suggest first get the fur cold then put in freezer
to reduce the amout of condensation that may form on the fur. But still
not sure if it will hurt the polyester back, think of all those hunters
that have heads mounted the taxidermist tends to put the heads in the
freezer until he has time to do them.  I wish you luck. theresa

>>> kathysmassmail@verizon.net 1/19/2005 1:38:05 PM >>>

> I just bought some fake fur to play with, and am about to machine
wash it 


Oooh, yes, I'd love to hear how it turns out!

Sadly, the budget is a bit stretched right now, so I will probably end
up trying to wash it unless there is something else I can do. I have a
front loading washing machine...so it may survive.  Does anyone have any
other suggestions? Would freezing it for a period of time kill stuff?

The ringworm I think I got by petting a strange dog, but since it took
a MONTH to get rid of it and I had to put bandages in really odd places,
I am not keen to  repeat the experience!
      --Kathy K.

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The outer layer is the only one of cotton velvet--it's interlined elsewhere 
in the corset with a thin linen, and fully lined there and elsewhere with a 
slightly thicker but still thin linen twill. The bulk problem at the 
buttonhole strip is from the seam allowances (already clipped as far as 
possible) of the bust panel. See, there's a sort of gathered cup for each 
side of the bust, with a pleated strip of velvet applied on top of that, 
which means that A) the bust treatment is too bulky for its seam allowances 
to go anywhere but under the buttonhole strip, and B) there are four layers 
of cotton velvet (one of them interfaced) under part (but not all) of the 
buttonhole strip for several inches, and three under the rest because I had 
to turn the whole seam thataway. BULK! And I honestly cannot get rid of any 
more of the seam allowance bulk without weakening the whole thing far too 
much.

I've tried all sorts of hand-worked buttonholes in my test runs, but just 
could not get anything that really worked well--part of the broblem is the 
frayability of the cotton velvet, which I could probably deal with using 
something like gum arabic or fraycheck, but I couldn't manage anything that 
could stand up to the stress those buttonholes would be under: if I stitch 
close enough for strength, the cotton velvet disintegrates!

-E House (maybe I'll wind up talking myself into continuing with the whole 
bound buttonhole idea, sigh.)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> Are you sure? Y'know the outside layer of the buttonhole side need be the
> only thing in velvet. It can be faced with thin cotton. And the underlap, 
> with
> the buttons on it, can be cotton too. Make the cotton the same color...so 
> it's
> not noticed. And the velvet need only overlap velvet maybe a quarter of an
> inch.
>
> The bulk of the velvet is mostly the nap. There's no reason a regular
> "embroidered" button hole wouldn't work...especially if there's only one 
> layer of
> velvet [and a layer of cotton facing]. Perhaps a buttonhole stitch could 
> be wider
> than usual.
>
> Albert "made many a Renn. costume out of curtain velvet" Cat

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From: "Theresa Threadgill" <tthreadgill@connally.org>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
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sorry fungal not bacterial for ringworm. tinactin, not antibiotics to
fix theresa

>>> cvirtue+dated+1121713510.c79790@thibault.org 1/19/2005 1:11:19 PM
>>>
Welllllll, it depends on how much you want to spend on this thing.

Some fake furs do fine in the wash, with cool water.  But yours has a 
warning on it.  This might mean that it really needs the official fur 
method, or it might be that they were covering all the bases with 
needless cautions.

I'm agressively thrifty, so if it were mine, I'd probably wash it and 
hope for the best, but if you really love it, spend the money to do it

right.  I know this list has discussed ways of cleaning fur yourself 
before; you could check the archives.

Ringworm (for you non-native anglophones, it's not a worm, it's a 
bacterial skin infection) might come from any source, if the conditions

are right, like a cold.  The last time I got it, there hadn't been any

obvious vector.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Would you like to spend a week at a cottage on the Maine coast? Family

business: $642 for a week, beds for 5 people. More details and photos
at 
http://www.virtue.to/cottages.html 
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net (Elena O'Tighearnaigh)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:56:22 +0000
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I agree with Bjarne.  The buttonloops I'm referring to are the ones you make by running a strong cord (twice through) parallel to the seam edge; don't use a knot, because you can catch the loose ends in the next step.  Buttonhole stitch along the loop (done like a satin stitched blanket stitch) around the cords with a buttonhole- weight matching thread; when finished with 'wrapping' the cords with the stitches, anchor the last stitch invisibly.

I think that this would  give you a nice closure with no further bulk.

I hope this helps!
--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hi, 
> I would forget about buttonholes if i were you and then make button loops in 
> stead. Is this the right word? I am sure you know what i mean with this. 
> 
> Bjarne 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "E House" 
> To: "Historical Costume" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:43 PM 
> Subject: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes 
> 
> 
> >I need some ideas here. I'm working on a c1895 equipoise/Ferris Good Sense 
> >style corset, but foolishly agreed to make it out of cotton velvet. It's 
> >going to be gorgeous, but... the stupid fabric is SO BULKY that it causes 
> >all sorts of problems! 
> > 
> > I've resolved all of them, except one: the buttonholes. This style of 
> > corset isn't meant for waist reduction; rather, it gives bust support and 
> > a firm foundation, so the front opening is generally closed with buttons 
> > rather than a busk clasp. However, due to the bulk of the velvet, the 
> > strip for the buttonholes is a bit less than 1/4" thick, even after I 
> > spent a great deal of time trying to figure out how to reduce the bulk as 
> > much as possible. 
> > 
> > I've done several test runs, and here are the things that absolutely did 
> > not work: handsewn buttonholes of various sorts, machine sewn buttonholes 
> > also of various sorts, looped buttonholes (I'd have to remake almost the 
> > whole stupid thing), and putting in a busk anyway (ditto). Apart from the 
> > bulk, the main problem is fraying of the cotton velvet, and the secondary 
> > problem is that I just can't see my stitches in the very thick pile. 
> > 
> > The closest I've come to a good result in my tests so far is a buttonhole 
> > bound in interfaced bias tape, but that adds even more bulk and I'm a bit 
> > worried that the customer won't be able to get the thing buttoned, with 
> > all this bulk! It takes forever because of the aforementioned problems, 
> > but it looks decent and matches the overall effect of the corset (which is 
> > pretty darn fussy, but has the same bias tape binding elsewhere). 
> > However, I'd love it if anyone can suggest another solution, because this 
> > one isn't perfect and I'm a perfectionist! =} Also, I'm afraid if I spend 
> > too much more time with it, I'll put it through the document shredder. 
> > 
> > -E House 
> > (Moral of the story: cotton velvet? NOT suited for fussy pleated 
> > fanciness. ...If I'd charged per hour on this, it'd cost ~$3500. AND IT'S 
> > STILL NOT DONE.) 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > h-costume mailing list 
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg (lightened slightly to show 
detail--it looks so much nicer in person, sigh)

You see, the buttonhole strip acts as a binding for that center front edge 
of the corset, and while I could eliminate part of it, I couldn't eliminate 
enough of it for it to look right.  (Remember, I'm picky. =} ) Loops, as 
handy as they'd be, just wouldn't really work well for me; if nothing else, 
they'd be completely out of line with the look of the corset.

-E House

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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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I have no advice to give you, but that corset is stunning. when you
described it,I couldn't picture why anyone would want a velvet corset
with all that bulk and extra work, but this is lovely!
LynnD


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:33:49 -0600, E House <formfunc@formfunction.org> wrote:
> I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
> http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg (lightened slightly to show
> detail--it looks so much nicer in person, sigh)
> 
> You see, the buttonhole strip acts as a binding for that center front edge
> of the corset, and while I could eliminate part of it, I couldn't eliminate
> enough of it for it to look right.  (Remember, I'm picky. =} ) Loops, as
> handy as they'd be, just wouldn't really work well for me; if nothing else,
> they'd be completely out of line with the look of the corset.
> 
> -E House
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:58:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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     It looks very nice!

     I would leave the buttons on as decoration, and use very sturdy hooks
& eyes underneath for the actual closure.

     In a heavy fabric, the buttonholes tend to rumple, especially when
there are that many of them.  Plus it will be so much easier to close
the corset with hooks than all that buttoning.

     -Carol


> I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
> http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg (lightened slightly to show
> detail--it looks so much nicer in person, sigh)
>
> You see, the buttonhole strip acts as a binding for that center front edge
> of the corset, and while I could eliminate part of it, I couldn't
> eliminate
> enough of it for it to look right.  (Remember, I'm picky. =} ) Loops, as
> handy as they'd be, just wouldn't really work well for me; if nothing
> else,
> they'd be completely out of line with the look of the corset.
>
> -E House

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From: "Five Rivers" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: patterns
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Dear Theresa,

    We carry both Medieval Miscellanea and Reconstructing History patterns,
as well as many more lines, through our online catalogue at www.5rivers.org
Everything from 500AD to 1950. And we're add new lines every year. Reviews
are welcome on any patterns.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
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You can try cleaning a section of it by hand and seeing how it handles 
the water, if it loses color or starts to shed badly.

A friend of mine who restores vintage plastic dolls says she uses hair 
conditioner on the doll hair to keep it soft and tangle-free. I don't 
know if something like that, or a fabric softener will help keep the 
fake fur from getting matted or frizzy, too, but those are things I 
would try.



Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:53:57 -0700
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Where do you live?

On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:06 AM, purplkat@optonline.net wrote:

> I am one of those people who can't drape anything! I can fix almost 
> anything mechanical, write a computer program in COBOL, and make my 
> own spinning wheel - but I am DENSE when it comes to transfering 2D 
> clothing patterns to 3D!!
>
> Also my problem is that 99% of published patterns don't fit my extra 
> long ladie's sz 11 body.
>
> I am offering $$ for a person to make me a "sloper"?? - a fabric 
> version of my body - so I can use it as a base for my garb.
>
> Lady Katheryne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: historian@reconstructinghistory.com
>> But still people came from me and offered to pay me if I would draft 
>> a pattern for them.
>> Some people can't do it.  Some people don't want to do it.  Some 
>> people don't have the time to do it.  And some people do it and buy 
>> my patterns anyway to see if their theories agree with mine.
>> Kass McGann
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
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Fake fur's nowhere near as fragile as you think. If the fur and backing
are in good condition, throw it in the washer on warm, then the dryer,
and hang it up right away. Throwing in an anti-static sheet with it seems
to help the fur a bit.

I have a 20 year old tailored cloak that's kept its shape after many
seasons of very hard wear. Your washer isn't going to break it. If the
fur flattens a bit, brush it out after it dries.

Good luck!

Arlys

Of all the myths that persist in the garment industry, the biggest one is
"Dry Clean Only."

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:36:54 -0600 <kathysmassmail@verizon.net> writes:
> Hello,
> 
> Sorry for the off-topic post, but I have a question:
> 
> I found a great ankle-length fake fur coat at a thrift store. After 
> getting ringworm from god knows where I now wash or dry clean all 
> clothing that comes into my house, but I'm at a complete loss what 
> to do about this coat! The cleaning instructions say "clean by fur 
> method. Do not brush, press or steam" which is not helpful to me at 
> all.
> 
> Help?  It's a black fur with a pile about an inch and a half deep 
> and a woven polyester-ish backing. The lining is standard coat 
> polyester lining fabric.
> 
> Thanks!
>       --Kathy K.
> 
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:32:22 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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Are you thinking of frogs?

Arlys

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:32:12 +0100 "Bjarne og Leif Drews"
<drewscph@post12.tele.dk> writes:
> Hi,
> I would forget about buttonholes if i were you and then make button 
> loops in 
> stead. Is this the right word? I am sure you know what i mean with 
> this.
> 
> Bjarne

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Subject: [h-cost] RE:Grids - pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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Last I had seen the 1" squares grids was 3 yrs ago. The most common map
today is the "chicken wire" grid which I come to understand was introduced
by the UK gamers.
Though this is not intended to discourage anyone from checking with their
local game stores.
By the way, suggesting a gaming grid for sewing is definitly not way OT. :)

De



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes (pic)
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>> I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
>> http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg

Thanks, guys.  I did a few more tests with bound buttonholes and tried a few 
new tricks, such as cutting away a bit of the fabric rather than just 
slitting it (so the finished buttonhole wouldn't bulge) and I'm a lot 
happier with it as an option now, but the idea of hooks and eyes is awfully 
tempting...

-E House 

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Subject: [h-cost] visualising 3 dimensions
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> Quoting Cynthia J Ley <cley@juno.com>:
>
*snippage*

>
>
> > I'm a lifelong musician who takes tons of costuming classes and STILL
> > can't figure out how flat fabric becomes curved fabric to fit on
> > cylindrical bodies. Then again, math and music aren't processed in the
> > same hemisphere of the brain. I wonder if that's got anything to do with
> > it.
>
> Being able to look at a three dimensional piece and see what you have to do in
> two dimensions to make that piece is definitely something you're born with, I
> think.  You have it or you don't.  You can learn to "fake" it, but it's very
> difficult.

Oh, yeah -- the husband does it ... in spades.  I cannot.  He used to love
drafting class where they give 3 sides of a 3-D object, and you have to 
draw the other sides.  :-P

Jerusha (susan)
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>
> Ringworm (for you non-native anglophones, it's not a worm, it's a 
> bacterial skin infection) might come from any source, if the conditions 
> are right, like a cold.  The last time I got it, there hadn't been any 
> obvious vector.

Actually it's fungal like athletes foot.  I think the critter is in the
same genus as the ones that cause AF.  You can treat them with the AF
creams.

Jerusha (the biologist)
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20050119183654.ZZNH21228.out007.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur--trial results
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:16:24 -0600
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Welp, the fake fur is mostly done drying, and I'd call the experiment 
successful. I haven't measured it yet to see if it shrank, but I'd be 
surprised if it did, because it has a polyester backing. The look and feel 
of it is exactly the same as before I washed it, as far as I can tell. The 
only issue is a ton of har lint all over both my washer and dryer!  But 
since the edges weren't bound in any way, I think the hair is mostly from 
the cut edges--the fur, overall, doesn't look any thinner or sparser. I 
probably wouldn't wash it too often, just in case, but overall I'm quite 
happy.

-E House

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes (pic)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:10:40 -0600
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I think that the hook and eye idea is the best I heard yet. When I looked at 
the picture, beautiful by the way, that was the first thing that I thought 
of as well.

Jan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes (pic)


>>> I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
>>> http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg
>
> Thanks, guys.  I did a few more tests with bound buttonholes and tried a 
> few new tricks, such as cutting away a bit of the fabric rather than just 
> slitting it (so the finished buttonhole wouldn't bulge) and I'm a lot 
> happier with it as an option now, but the idea of hooks and eyes is 
> awfully tempting...
>
> -E House
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] patterns (as was)
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In a message dated 1/19/05 1:48:44 PM GMT Standard Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

> She 
> may have been a wonderful researcher, but I am not so sure she was a 
> great reconstructioninst.  (whoops did I dare say that out loud?)
> 

Sorry, but this is the view of someone whose never seen any of Janet Arnold's 
work as a costumer (not just historian), or spoken to any of the people who 
knew her (speaking from knowledge gained from lots of conversations with my 
college costume tutor, who was trained by Arnold).

Can't help with whose patterns are best, as don't use patterns.  (Thanks god 
for being one of those who was born with that spacial ability that's been 
mentioned!!!) 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:40:38 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] visualising 3 dimensions
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> > Being able to look at a three dimensional piece and see what you have 
> to do in
> > two dimensions to make that piece is definitely something you're born 
> with, I
> > think.  You have it or you don't.  You can learn to "fake" it, but it's 
> very
> > difficult.
>
>Oh, yeah -- the husband does it ... in spades.  I cannot.  He used to love
>drafting class where they give 3 sides of a 3-D object, and you have to
>draw the other sides.  :-P

I have your husband's 2D -> 3D skill, but drafting flat patterns is 
something I could never wrap my brain around.  I always drape or use 
somebody else's pattern.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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 I would like to thank everyone who helped me with the issue of fabric paint/ing.
 I think I know what I will be doing now.  And I plan on doing some research
that was mentioned.  Thanks again!
  Now, I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed or not.  Was fur ever dyed
in the Renaissance period?  For example, a white fur to green?  Curious because
of an an outfit that someone wants done with possible green fake fur (couldn't
afford real fur at the time).

Roscelin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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In a message dated 1/19/2005 3:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
formfunc@formfunction.org writes:

> You see, the buttonhole strip acts as a binding for that center front edge 
> of the corset, 

Oooooo...very beautiful work.

Y'know....do blind buttonholes, sew the buttons on top of them and put hooks 
and bars behind them. It will look great!
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:16:44 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking old NESATs
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At 1:13 AM -0500 1/19/05, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
>On Tuesday 18 January 2005 10:07 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>>  NESAT 3 was still available for purchase through David Brown/Oxbow as
>>  of only a few years ago (when I purchased my copy).
>>
>>  <http://www.oxbowbooks.com/>
>
>I have seen NESAT 3 and 4 on and off at David Brown Books--last time I checked
>they only had NESAT 5 and 6, which I already have.

I asked them to track it down for me -- it took a little while, but 
they got me one eventually.  David Brown is extremely good about 
dealing with special orders, and if they figured out where to get one 
once, they can probably do it again.  For that matter, if they ever 
run across any copies of #1 or 2, they still have my request and 
credit card number on file.  Don't rely only on catalog listings.

Heather
-- 
****
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@earthlink.net
****
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Definitely a measurable ability--I remember achievement tests in school 
in which spatial abilities were measured.  Lots of fun. And very handy 
to have--I've found it surprisingly useful in the wide variety of jobs 
I've had in my life.
For me, it just...works.  It's one of the things I like so much about 
working with fabric and textiles--the whole 3-dimensionality of it. 
Knitting's that way, too...taking something that's one dimensional and 
playing with it and making it two-dimensional and twisting it and making 
it 3-dimensional....oh, yeah! I'm making my brother a Klein Bottle hat 
for next Christmas.  Klein bottles are bottles with only one surface, no 
edges, its inside is its outside...they're cool.  Kinda like a bottle 
version of a mobius strip.
None of which, I suppose, does anything to explain why my preferred 
embroidery is also largely flat, like Cynthia's! ;o) I love the patterns 
in monochrome embroidery and pulled/drawn thread work.....
--Sue

Cynthia J Ley wrote:

> I'm a lifelong musician who takes tons of costuming classes and STILL
> can't figure out how flat fabric becomes curved fabric to fit on
> cylindrical bodies. Then again, math and music aren't processed in the
> same hemisphere of the brain. I wonder if that's got anything to do with
> it.
> 
> I can do embroidery. But it is very politely flat. :)


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:46:11 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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roscelin wrote:

> I would like to thank everyone who helped me with the issue of fabric paint/ing.
> I think I know what I will be doing now.  And I plan on doing some research
>that was mentioned.  Thanks again!
>  Now, I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed or not.  Was fur ever dyed
>in the Renaissance period?  For example, a white fur to green?  Curious because
>of an an outfit that someone wants done with possible green fake fur (couldn't
>afford real fur at the time).
>
>  
>

Not that I'm aware of, that is, I haven't seen anything to suggest the 
use of furs in obviously unnatural colours.

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
----------------------------- 

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Hmmm,  I can do it, but it was definitely a learned skill.  Maybe that 
is not even truly correct.  I can draft the initial, but always fit it, 
and then make the adjustment in 2D....does that count?  I am always 
surprised that I can do it.  I have a terrible sense of direction....to 
me they should be related......maybe not.

Sg

>
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On Wednesday 19 January 2005 2:16 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> At 1:13 AM -0500 1/19/05, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
> >On Tuesday 18 January 2005 10:07 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
[snip]

>> I have seen NESAT 3 and 4 on and off at David Brown Books--last time I
> > checked they only had NESAT 5 and 6, which I already have.
>
> I asked them to track it down for me -- it took a little while, but
> they got me one eventually.  David Brown is extremely good about
> dealing with special orders, and if they figured out where to get one
> once, they can probably do it again.  

Thank you; I didn't realize they would/could do that.  (I note they do have 
NESAT 4 listed again, by the way, though for more than I'm prepared to pay 
given all the spending I've done in the past 6 weeks.)  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns (as was)
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Sorry, but yours is a view of someone who has not tried to make anything 
up directly from her patterns (neither personal fit nor scaling has 
anything to do with it).  Some of them simply don't work.  By her own 
admission she did not necessarily make up every thing which appears in 
her pattern books.  Don't get me wrong-she does lovely drawings, and I 
have seen some of the works she supposedly did herself which are 
lovely...but  that doesn't mean everything she ever attempted was 
without fault or was even the best solution to the problem.  

Debloughcostumes@aol.com wrote:

>Sorry, but this is the view of someone whose never seen any of Janet Arnold's 
>work as a costumer (not just historian), or spoken to any of the people who 
>knew her (speaking from knowledge gained from lots of conversations with my 
>college costume tutor, who was trained by Arnold).
>
>Can't help with whose patterns are best, as don't use patterns.  (Thanks god 
>for being one of those who was born with that spacial ability that's been 
>mentioned!!!) 
>_______________________________________________
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>  
>
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Then you have people like me.....I can either drape or flat pattern just 
about anything, with the exception of men's jackets.  I have to drape those. 
The sleeves, however, I can't drape to save my life; those I have to flat 
pattern.

Frustrating sometimes, but I get it to work.

Melusine 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Jacobean jackets and draping or not,	was pattern
	review?
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Ok, it's not just me.  I have spent years pounding my head against the 
wall, because I can look at a garment and then just draft a pattern.  
And I just could not figure out that why everyone else didn't just do 
the same.  My wife on more than one occasion has come home to find me 
finishing up her a new work outfit, and asked where I got the pattern, 
only to be meet with a blank stare, and what pattern.  I just thought 
that everyone could do that.

Oh and on embroidery I once did a piece of Bargello out out four 
different threads, all white.  The pattern was created by the different 
textures of the thread.  Caused a number of head to explode at our 
Embroidery Guild meeting.

Stephen

historian@reconstructinghistory.com wrote:

>Quoting Cynthia J Ley <cley@juno.com>:
>
>  
>
>>>>Also, I've met more than a few people who simply don't have the
>>>>ability to translate a 2-dimensional flat drawing into a
>>>>3-dimensional garment.  I think it's an inborn spatial ability that
>>>>some of us have and some don't -- rather like musical ability.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>      
>>>
>>I'm a lifelong musician who takes tons of costuming classes and STILL
>>can't figure out how flat fabric becomes curved fabric to fit on
>>cylindrical bodies. Then again, math and music aren't processed in the
>>same hemisphere of the brain. I wonder if that's got anything to do with
>>it.
>>    
>>
>
>Being able to look at a three dimensional piece and see what you have to do in
>two dimensions to make that piece is definitely something you're born with, I
>think.  You have it or you don't.  You can learn to "fake" it, but it's very
>difficult.
>
>  
>
>>I can do embroidery. But it is very politely flat. :)
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>  
>

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From: purplkat@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
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North eastern NJ..

You offering??

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>

> Where do you live?
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:06 AM, purplkat@optonline.net wrote:
> > I am one of those people who can't drape anything! I can fix almost anything mechanical, write a computer program in COBOL, and make my own spinning wheel - but I am DENSE when it comes to transfering 2D clothing patterns to 3D!!
> >I am offering $$ for a person to make me a "sloper"?? - a fabric version of my body - so I can use it as a base for my garb.
> >Lady Katheryne

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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:46:26 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Only if you lived in Colorado.  I can't do right it without having the 
actual body.

On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:16 PM, purplkat@optonline.net wrote:

> North eastern NJ..
>
> You offering??
>
> Katheryne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
>
>> Where do you live?
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:06 AM, purplkat@optonline.net wrote:
>>> I am one of those people who can't drape anything! I can fix almost 
>>> anything mechanical, write a computer program in COBOL, and make my 
>>> own spinning wheel - but I am DENSE when it comes to transfering 2D 
>>> clothing patterns to 3D!!
>>> I am offering $$ for a person to make me a "sloper"?? - a fabric 
>>> version of my body - so I can use it as a base for my garb.
>>> Lady Katheryne
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: cleaning fake fur
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Kathy,

Sometimes the cleaning issues aren't with the main fabric or even the 
lining.  They may be with the interfacings, padding, etc. that form the 
structure of the coat.  Yes, you can wash fake fur (gentle, cold) and air 
or no-heat dry it.  The same for the polyester.  But one never knows if 
there is loose cotton wadding, or something else inside.
Can you tell by gently feeling along the edges and at the collar and 
shoulders, how much internal structure is there?  It would be sad if the 
inner and outer fabrics came out great, but there are ugly bunchies and 
lumps where the inner structure came apart.

Good luck!!

Sandy (who gets to take apart a real mink coat one of these days to make 
teddy bears for the owner's granddaughters!!)

At 01:02 PM 1/19/2005, you wrote:

>From: <kathysmassmail@verizon.net>
>Subject: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
>
>Hello,
>
>I found a great ankle-length fake fur coat at a thrift store. After 
>getting ringworm from god knows where I now wash or dry clean all clothing 
>that comes into my house, but I'm at a complete loss what to do about this 
>coat! The cleaning instructions say "clean by fur method. Do not brush, 
>press or steam" which is not helpful to me at all.
>
>Help?  It's a black fur with a pile about an inch and a half deep and a 
>woven polyester-ish backing. The lining is standard coat polyester lining 
>fabric.
>
>Thanks!
>       --Kathy K.

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi,
To me you could very easy make the loops. Let them start where you have the 
seam inside the corset. The buttons wil be closed where you wanted the 
buttonholes to be, so nothing is spoiled.
Looks very nice................
Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Yes, as a matter of fact I asked this question a number of years ago, 
unfortunately no one was able to help me much either.  The only thing I 
have run across to "support" it was mention in a historical fiction 
novel by Dorathy Dunnett.  Not helpful I know.  This was one of those 
things where I had to resort to my one of my historian friends motto: 
"If you thought of it, they probably thought of it."  It is just hard to 
believe it doesn't show up anywhere.   I mean they clearly dyed fabric 
and leather......I'd be particularly interested if you find anything!

Sg


>
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> > I wish!  Try finding *anything* still gridded off in inches instead
of
> > centimetres in the UK and you'll have an exercise in futility!
> > 
> > Teddy
> 
> Teddy, do you have any shops around your area that carry role 
> playing games?  I've seen blank "battle maps" for RPGs 
> gridded in one inch squares -- it's the standard grid for 
> Dungeons and Dragons.  The vinyl maps would be way too 
> expensive to use as pattern layout grids, but at least one 
> company makes the blank maps in coated paper.  You'd probably 
> have to tape several sheets together, though.

Good tip, Leah - thanks!

I do actually have one of those cardboard mats gridded in inches (a
lucky find, still in it's original wrapper, in a  ssecond hand shop some
time ago - dating back to before the change-over to decimalisation was
quite so far advanced)... gridded pattern paper, on the other hand is
almost always in centimeres (as I discovered the first time I tried to
get some to scale up a pattern from Janet Arnold)... stupid obsession
with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
grumble>

Teddy
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> BULK! And I honestly cannot  get rid of any 
> more of the seam allowance bulk without weakening the whole  thing far
too 
> much.

Bear with me here, while I try to explain a possible solution without
the visuals...

The button and buttonhole strips overlap, and this is what they are
meant to do in order for the garment to fit - right?

In that case, sew the buttons on the *buttonhole* strip and sew button
loops to the ouside of the garment along the seam/edge of the *button*
strip where it meets the garment - that way, the button-loops some up
over the edge of the buttonhole strip and round the buttons, holding it
in place overlapping the button strip.... not the standard way of doing
button loops but it should work on a garment where the fit is close
enough that here's nowhere on the inside of the garment (between the
garment and the wearer, for the "underlap" to go to.

Does any of that make sense?

I can picture it but have no idea if the explanation carries the idea
over

Teddy
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From: Marquesate <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 stupid obsession
> with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
> grumble>
> 

Hooray! Ist what I say *grins at Teddy*

Silly imperial measurements, they make no sense. :-)

Nicole - German in England


	
	
		
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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Hi,
I say the same here, but then again, i cant get used to the meassures with 
inches.
I was educated with cm.
But i feel with you Teddy, must be difficult to be forsed to use cm's
Bjarne who is expecting my niece right away to fit the mock  up bodice.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marquesate" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)


> stupid obsession
>> with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
>> grumble>
>>
>
> Hooray! Ist what I say *grins at Teddy*
>
> Silly imperial measurements, they make no sense. :-)
>
> Nicole - German in England
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? now inches and cms.
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>   The vinyl maps would be way too
> > expensive to use as pattern layout grids, but at least one
> > company makes the blank maps in coated paper.  You'd probably
> > have to tape several sheets together, though.
>
>Good tip, Leah - thanks!
>
>I do actually have one of those cardboard mats gridded in inches (a
>lucky find, still in it's original wrapper, in a  ssecond hand shop some
>time ago - dating back to before the change-over to decimalisation was
>quite so far advanced)... gridded pattern paper, on the other hand is
>almost always in centimeres (as I discovered the first time I tried to
>get some to scale up a pattern from Janet Arnold)... stupid obsession
>with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
>grumble>


I'm with you Teddy. I was taught to use bits of my body as rough guide to 
measurements - a thumb width is 1inch, across my hand 4", finger tip to 
thumb tip, about 8 inches, tip of nose to end of outstretched arm 36" or 
one yard (I have to turn my nose to the side - I have short arms!!) A foot 
without a shoe 10", and a normal sort of stride, about a yard again. I 
cannot do all that in centimetres, although I buy fabric in metres, and if 
stuck turn my measure and use metric if the inches don't quite fit!!

Suzi


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] buttonhole finishes
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Status: RO

If you don't like the keep the buttons and put loops on (that would just 
loop over the bottons in the front),  there is the method that we were 
forced to use by a RenFaire we were stupid enough to take on the 
costuming for.  They insisted that everything used these huge snaps (we 
just started to call them whoppers).
The snaps never did show, and we worked hard to still make the garments 
look like they were laced, etc.
 They actually did hold  for everything, even though we kept wincing.  
And you can use them on the cotton velvet - another thing we ended up 
using a lot, even though we felt sorry for the actors wearing this in July!
Rowena
And I did gasp at how pretty that corset is.  And totally understand 
that you will never again make one.  We have a few of those from that 
RenFaire Summer.

E House wrote:

> I uploaded a quick photo (sorry, slightly large file) of the corset:
> http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/P1008514.jpg (lightened slightly to 
> show detail--it looks so much nicer in person, sigh)
>
> You see, the buttonhole strip acts as a binding for that center front 
> edge of the corset, and while I could eliminate part of it, I couldn't 
> eliminate enough of it for it to look right.  (Remember, I'm picky. =} 
> ) Loops, as handy as they'd be, just wouldn't really work well for me; 
> if nothing else, they'd be completely out of line with the look of the 
> corset.
>

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And one of the warning signs for Lime Disease (the bulls eye).
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue+dated+1121713510.c79790@thibault.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur


> Welllllll, it depends on how much you want to spend on this thing.
> 
> Some fake furs do fine in the wash, with cool water.  But yours has a 
> warning on it.  This might mean that it really needs the official fur 
> method, or it might be that they were covering all the bases with 
> needless cautions.
> 
> I'm agressively thrifty, so if it were mine, I'd probably wash it and 
> hope for the best, but if you really love it, spend the money to do it 
> right.  I know this list has discussed ways of cleaning fur yourself 
> before; you could check the archives.
> 
> Ringworm (for you non-native anglophones, it's not a worm, it's a 
> bacterial skin infection) might come from any source, if the conditions 
> are right, like a cold.  The last time I got it, there hadn't been any 
> obvious vector.
> 
> -- 
> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
> 
> Would you like to spend a week at a cottage on the Maine coast? Family 
> business: $642 for a week, beds for 5 people. More details and photos at 
> http://www.virtue.to/cottages.html
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:20:04 -0500
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I do this all the time with my costume animals.  However, with some of the
fine faux furs out there, they are not to be subjected to a common wash.
And the interlinings, fabric backing and such will be affected by
detergents. I do not know what the "furrier method is, but it does make a
big difference in keeping the garment faux and not just fake.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur


> I just bought some fake fur to play with, and am about to machine wash it
> according the the instructions in Fabric Savvy (which says machine wash
> cold, dryer with no heat or shake it and air dry).  Wish me luck, and I'll
> tell you how it turns out. =}
>
> -E House
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 20 08:41:14 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur--trial results
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:41:08 -0500
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When ever I am working with the stuff, I always throw it (the pieces) in the
dryer after cutting,  to remove all the loose stuff before sewing.  This is
only a problem the 'first' time.

And another caution, any of the long furs, like gorilla, will matt if they
come in contact with heat of any kind.

Bye the bye, use a pet grooming glove to 'groom' the fur as needed. A wig
brush works nicely on the long fur, for grooming.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: cleaning fake fur--trial results


> Welp, the fake fur is mostly done drying, and I'd call the experiment
> successful. I haven't measured it yet to see if it shrank, but I'd be
> surprised if it did, because it has a polyester backing. The look and feel
> of it is exactly the same as before I washed it, as far as I can tell. The
> only issue is a ton of har lint all over both my washer and dryer!  But
> since the edges weren't bound in any way, I think the hair is mostly from
> the cut edges--the fur, overall, doesn't look any thinner or sparser. I
> probably wouldn't wash it too often, just in case, but overall I'm quite
> happy.
>
> -E House
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 20 08:45:31 2005
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:42:54 -0600
From: "Theresa Threadgill" <tthreadgill@connally.org>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? now inches and cms.
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Y'all seem to be fairly good with your computers, so make the grid paper
on the computer, you will need several pages and have to tape them
together but it would be in inches and its just right there for just a
little time.  and not too expensive.  good luck theresa

>>> suzi@suziclarke.co.uk 1/20/2005 5:03:09 AM >>>


>   The vinyl maps would be way too
> > expensive to use as pattern layout grids, but at least one
> > company makes the blank maps in coated paper.  You'd probably
> > have to tape several sheets together, though.
>
>Good tip, Leah - thanks!
>
>I do actually have one of those cardboard mats gridded in inches (a
>lucky find, still in it's original wrapper, in a  ssecond hand shop
some
>time ago - dating back to before the change-over to decimalisation
was
>quite so far advanced)... gridded pattern paper, on the other hand is
>almost always in centimeres (as I discovered the first time I tried
to
>get some to scale up a pattern from Janet Arnold)... stupid obsession
>with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
>grumble>


I'm with you Teddy. I was taught to use bits of my body as rough guide
to 
measurements - a thumb width is 1inch, across my hand 4", finger tip to

thumb tip, about 8 inches, tip of nose to end of outstretched arm 36"
or 
one yard (I have to turn my nose to the side - I have short arms!!) A
foot 
without a shoe 10", and a normal sort of stride, about a yard again. I

cannot do all that in centimetres, although I buy fabric in metres, and
if 
stuck turn my measure and use metric if the inches don't quite fit!!

Suzi


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:04:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 18th c. mittens pattern
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I've just posted a fairly simple mittens pattern, with sizes for
adults and children, on my website at:

http://www.marariley.net/patterns.htm

The mittens are based on the mitten in Neumann's _Collector's
Encyclopedia of the American Revolution_ and pics in a paper from one
of the Tidy's Symposia.

Also have some modern knitting stuff at:
http://www.knittingobsession.com/patterns.htm

This is my first time using Paypal's "Buy Now" buttons, so PLEASE let
me know if these don't work!

Cheers,
Mara

=====
---------------------
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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I remeber that in the book on the greenland digs in the 1920s, he mentions they
found Polar Bear Fur dyed red.
Just one mention, and (as usual) no details.
I'll see if I can look it up this evening.
Rowena
-- 



Quoting Wicked Frau <wickedfrau@earthlink.net>:

> Yes, as a matter of fact I asked this question a number of years ago, 
> unfortunately no one was able to help me much either.  The only thing I 
> have run across to "support" it was mention in a historical fiction 
> novel by Dorathy Dunnett.  Not helpful I know.  This was one of those 
> things where I had to resort to my one of my historian friends motto: 
> "If you thought of it, they probably thought of it."  It is just hard to 
> believe it doesn't show up anywhere.   I mean they clearly dyed fabric 
> and leather......I'd be particularly interested if you find anything!
> 
> Sg
> 
> 
> >
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 


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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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Well
I never could get my head around to inches, feet and miles and all the other imperial measures. I have grown up with the metric system and it is only because the metric system was declared during the first napoleonetic reign in France that England did not get it before not. the metric system is so much easier to calculate in, as you only have to add or substract zeroes to go from one unit to another 100cm is 1m is 0.001 km
To stay on topic. I am taking a flat pattern construction class as evening class, and am enjoying is very much.
Tania

Marquesate <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com> wrote:
stupid obsession
> with metric measurements this country has developed....> grumble>
> 

Hooray! Ist what I say *grins at Teddy*

Silly imperial measurements, they make no sense. :-)

Nicole - German in England





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-----Original Message-----
> Quoting Cynthia J Ley <cley@juno.com>:
> Being able to look at a three dimensional piece and see what you have to do in
> two dimensions to make that piece is definitely something you're born with, I
> think.  You have it or you don't.  You can learn to "fake" it, but it's very
> difficult.

Oh, yeah -- the husband does it ... in spades.  I cannot.  He used to love
drafting class where they give 3 sides of a 3-D object, and you have to 
draw the other sides.  :-P

Jerusha (susan)
____________________________
This was my BEST SCORE on the Aptitude test they gave us in the ninth grade--I LOVED mentally folding the flat drawings. AND YET when it comes to fabric and the human body I really can't transfer the skill. Wish I could.
   On the other hand, most of my sewing, and all of my period and quasi-period sewing, is for costuming community theater casts in period (and quasi-) productions. That means all shapes and sizes of people, rarely two in one season for the same body, multiple designs, very little chance for precision fittings (community theater actors rarely have any extra time beyond the essential rehearsals), and very little time overall to get everything done. Additionally, I farm out some of the costumes to other wonderful women who sew well from patterns but don't want too much creative control and do most of their sewing miles away from me, and I need to be able to give them precise directions about what to do. Under these circumstances, I thank all the gods that there are patterns! I can alter them and size them up or down, but I cannot work from scratch. I could never afford enough dress forms to do draping, and although my brain might eventually be able to apply its spatial-reasonin!
 g talent to fabric, I never really have time to take the time to learn and practice and, especially, make mistakes!
   I admire and am jealous of all of you who are not dependent on pattern manufacturers. But I also step into the group I most admire, which takes in the whole list: people who apply their talents, patience, intellect, ingenuity, and aesthetic sense to make the best historical or historically influenced clothing they can.
   Cheers, everybody!

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer


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> > stupid obsession
> > with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
> > grumble>
> > 
> 
> Hooray! Ist what I say *grins at Teddy*
> 
> Silly imperial measurements, they make no sense. :-)
> 
> Nicole - German in England

<grin!> Of course, you can say that becasue you *know* we're never going
to agree on it.

Teddy
 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Hhhmmm.  The only references I've found , in period, to dyeing have been the recipes found in "The Plichto", which is a Dyemasters 'recipe' book.  It had directions for dyeing horsetails, and other such things.  I'd love to be able to help more, but the book is buried under mountains of boxes of books in my storage unit.

Not much help, I'm afraid....sorry!

--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Yes, as a matter of fact I asked this question a number of years ago, 
> unfortunately no one was able to help me much either. The only thing I 
> have run across to "support" it was mention in a historical fiction 
> novel by Dorathy Dunnett. Not helpful I know. This was one of those 
> things where I had to resort to my one of my historian friends motto: 
> "If you thought of it, they probably thought of it." It is just hard to 
> believe it doesn't show up anywhere. I mean they clearly dyed fabric 
> and leather......I'd be particularly interested if you find anything! 
> 
> Sg 
> 
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:30:32 +0000
From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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> I say the same here, but then again, i cant get used to the 
> meassures with  inches. I was educated with cm.

I was educated in metric too (ddin't start school until after the change
to metric took place) but still think in the old "imperial"
measurements.

For example, I *know* how much 3 YARDS of fabric is, but all  can get
from 3 METRES is that it's "more than 3 yards"

Same with weights and measures.  I can understand how much is involved
in a pint of liquid or a pound of flour.

<sigh!>  I'm just a dinosaur that somehow happened along after his time.

Teddy
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:45:30 -0600
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When I was dyeing my fur (although in my case, I was dyeing it to a more 
natural looking color) I ran across a few mentions of dyed fur, although I 
didn't save any of them. As a matter of fact, though, one of the references 
I'm remembering was to fur dyed green!  I'll try to backtrack my previous 
searches, but I'm not promising any primary sources.

A few things I found quickly, though:
There's info on some extant dyed rabbit fur from the 17th(?) century in 
Fashion in Detail by Avril Hart and Susan North.  Either QEWU or the first 
Patterns of Fashion is supposed to have a reference to it as well, which 
would put it closer to your time period. (Disclaimer: I have none of these 
books.)  Going back to the 17thC, there is some blue dyed fur in a c1650-60 
painting by Castiglione ("Journey of a Patriarch").

All of this is later than the Renaissance, but if I'm finding these 
references in a few minutes, I'd say it's definitely something you shouldn't 
give up on yet! There are at least a few 15thC paintings and illuminations I 
can think of where there is something that looks a good deal like dyed fur, 
although that's not proof.

I expect it would have been most common to dye a less expensive fur to look 
like a more expensive fur (for example, dyeing rabbit to a dark brown) 
rather than to a bright and unnatural color, though.

-E House 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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I suspect that relative ease in using a given measuring system is a bit
like learning a language--the "easiest" one, the one that "makes the
most sense" will probably be the one you grew up with.  For me, as an
American, that would be American English, and the non-metric system ;o). 
  I got some stuff on the metric system in high school, so can make some
rudimentary translations, which can come in very handy, living this
close to Canada (and some stuff--like beverages--is sold in the US using 
both metric and imperial).  And while I can certainly see that a metric 
system is more logical/scientific, I *am* more comfortable with the old, 
grumpy, eccentric imperial system.  I "understand" the weirdnesses the 
same way I understand the vaguaries and eccentricities of my native 
language.
--sue, who has a couple of bolts of 1-inch-gridded pattern "paper", some 
of which she could probably be persuaded to figure out a way to get to 
Teddy, if he's interested....I'm not using it at all, and it's just 
going to waste in my storage unit.

Tania Gruning wrote:
> Well I never could get my head around to inches, feet and miles and
> all the other imperial measures. I have grown up with the metric
> system and it is only because the metric system was declared during
> the first napoleonetic reign in France that England did not get it
> before not. the metric system is so much easier to calculate in, as
> you only have to add or substract zeroes to go from one unit to
> another 100cm is 1m is 0.001 km To stay on topic. I am taking a flat
> pattern construction class as evening class, and am enjoying is very
> much. Tania

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:14:49 -0500
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On Thursday 20 January 2005 9:45 am, E House wrote:
[snip]

>  Going back to the 17thC, there is some blue dyed fur in a c1650-60
> painting by Castiglione ("Journey of a Patriarch").

Ah.  One thing to take into account is wool shag, which looks sort of like fur 
and would certainly have been dyed.  How can you be sure that isn't what's 
shown in the Castiglione painting?  (I admit I'm not familiar with the 
painting myself).

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:10:42 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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At 12:55 AM +0000 1/20/05, roscelin wrote:
>  I would like to thank everyone who helped me with the issue of 
>fabric paint/ing.
>  I think I know what I will be doing now.  And I plan on doing some research
>that was mentioned.  Thanks again!
>   Now, I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed or not.  Was fur ever dyed
>in the Renaissance period?  For example, a white fur to green? 
>Curious because
>of an an outfit that someone wants done with possible green fake fur (couldn't
>afford real fur at the time).

I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green, 
but there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color, 
namely silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's 
created, whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a 
sewn rug.

If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink* 
silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being 
portrayed is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome 
means I can't remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I 
_think_ it was Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental 
cross-index know what garment I'm talking about and where to find it?
-- 
____________________________________________________________

O    Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>  -   Davis, California
+     http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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At 10:14 AM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thursday 20 January 2005 9:45 am, E House wrote:
>[snip]
>
> >  Going back to the 17thC, there is some blue dyed fur in a c1650-60
> > painting by Castiglione ("Journey of a Patriarch").
>
>Ah.  One thing to take into account is wool shag, which looks sort of like 
>fur
>and would certainly have been dyed.  How can you be sure that isn't what's
>shown in the Castiglione painting?  (I admit I'm not familiar with the
>painting myself).
>
>--
>Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
>"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue
>that counts."--Winston Churchill

And another fur-like fabric is silk plush or shag (referred to in QEWU, 
with surviving example shown), which was used as linings for cloaks and gowns.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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In a message dated 1/20/2005 6:23:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homeec@telenet.net writes:

> They insisted that everything used these huge snaps (we 
> just started to call them whoppers).
> 

Ahhhh....whopper poppers

A word [rant] about closings:

If it's something that just lays together without tension, snaps, 
velcro....they are OK. But if it's a tight bodice or something that has tension, ask 
yourself, why would you use a closing that you PULL to come apart? I see this all 
the time! Snaps down the front of tight bodices. THINK!

It is true that whopper poppers and Velcro for NASA takes a lot of pulling 
but why people use these things to close tight fitting garments I'll never know. 

And I love how some people think Velcro is "easy". I find it a pain in the 
ass. I'd rather do buttons and button holes than deal with the stuff.

Like people who think Stitch Witchery is easier than just hemming something. 
WRONG. It take longer to do the stitch witchery than to just use a needle and 
thread. And with a needle and thread you don't gook up your fabric with glue.


OK....I'm done....
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> This was my BEST SCORE on the Aptitude test they gave us in the 
> ninth grade--I LOVED mentally folding the flat drawings. AND YET 
> when it comes to fabric and the human body I really can't transfer 
> the skill. Wish I could.

I've gotten better at those. My husband's a whiz kid at them. OTOH, I
scored quite well on the trigonometry portion of my GRE test, and I've
never taken trig--I'm number dyslexic and never made it past basic
algebra and barely understand basic fractions to this day! Shocked hell
out of me! Trig's a philosophy problem. (Now that, I'm good at!) ;)

Trade you some embroidery for a costume! ;)

Arlys
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Teddy wrote:

> For example, I *know* how much 3 YARDS of fabric is, but all  can get
> from 3 METRES is that it's "more than 3 yards"
> 
> Same with weights and measures.  I can understand how much is involved
> in a pint of liquid or a pound of flour.
> 
> <sigh!>  I'm just a dinosaur that somehow happened along after his time.

Teddy, obviously you have to move to the States, where we still measure
fabric in yards, and recipes use pounds and pints. But I believe our cups
and spoons vary slighly from yours -- in fact, an English friend kindly
sent me a set of British measuring cups and spoons to go with an old
British recipe book. I should check and see if they're actually different.

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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At 10:53 20/01/2005 -0600, you wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Teddy wrote:
>
> > For example, I *know* how much 3 YARDS of fabric is, but all  can get
> > from 3 METRES is that it's "more than 3 yards"
> >
> > Same with weights and measures.  I can understand how much is involved
> > in a pint of liquid or a pound of flour.
> >
> > <sigh!>  I'm just a dinosaur that somehow happened along after his time.
>
>Teddy, obviously you have to move to the States, where we still measure
>fabric in yards, and recipes use pounds and pints. But I believe our cups
>and spoons vary slighly from yours -- in fact, an English friend kindly
>sent me a set of British measuring cups and spoons to go with an old
>British recipe book. I should check and see if they're actually different.


Robin

Our pint is 20 fluid ounces, yours is 16 fluid ounces, therefore our cup 
measure is 10 fluid ounces, yours 8 fluid ounces!! It can make a difference 
- I have a set of American cups and half, quarter and so on. I also think 
our spoon sizes are a fraction different, but I can't work out which are my 
American spoons and which my English!! (Someday I must sit down and 
measure.) Also, so much of American measuring is done by the cup, whereas 
we still measure by the weight. (We are supposed to use metric there too, 
but if you have a perfectly good dual system scales, and your eye happens 
to fall on the imperial measures instead of the metric, well, unless the is 
a spy camera in my kitchen, who's to know???)

Suzi (using American tonight for cornbread!)


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:12:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th c. mittens pattern
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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This is hilarious -- based on the photos of the final results, this is the
mitten pattern my mother already uses!  So my red wool pair is already
authentic! Way too much fun! Thanks, Mara!
Lauren


> From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>

> I've just posted a fairly simple mittens pattern, with sizes for
> adults and children, on my website at:
> 
> http://www.marariley.net/patterns.htm
> 
> The mittens are based on the mitten in Neumann's _Collector's
> Encyclopedia of the American Revolution_ and pics in a paper from one
> of the Tidy's Symposia.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mara
> 
> =====
> ---------------------
> Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
> - Voltaire
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:41:40 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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Teddy wrote:

>>I say the same here, but then again, i cant get used to the 
>>meassures with  inches. I was educated with cm.
>>    
>>
>
>I was educated in metric too (ddin't start school until after the change
>to metric took place) but still think in the old "imperial"
>measurements.
>
>  
>

Would you believe I use Imperial measure when sewing, but work out 
fabric requirements in metres?

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
----------------------------- 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 20 15:27:41 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] fashion print.
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Oh i am so happy, my niece tryed the corset and the bodice, and it was very 
well. She gets such a beautifull body in this corset, and beautifull clevage 
two.
Then i have ben speculating how i could embellish the dress so that the over 
and underskirt in same shocking pink would be better noticed.
I looked trough Stella Blums book with fashion prints, and found the 
solution. Anglaise dress bordée de Marlborough, wich will say that there are 
two green panels inserted in the fronts of the overskirt. The fashion print 
has pink anglaise and green panels stitched with bordeaux ribbons. The 
underskirt has also a little green insertion with same bordeaux ribbons. I 
can do that!
Then the lady is wearing a white fichue with spots in pink. My Seta silk 
paint will come in handy here, i shall try to paint the fichu with spots of 
pink.
The sleaves ends in white frills, starting over the elbow, looks very nice.
I shall have a very bad night, i cant sleep because i cant wait to start it 
tomorrow.
The print is on page 43 in Stella Blums book.
Hurrah, how lucky i looked in that book.........
Sorry about this but i am so excited!

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: "Joanna" <joanna.hobbins@gmail.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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Glad I'm not the only one. 

Joanna 
-----Original Message-----


Would you believe I use Imperial measure when sewing, but work out 
fabric requirements in metres?

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
----------------------------- 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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I use metric almost (but not quite) as much as I use imperial in my various 
projects, but I definitely think in imperial. To me, the subdivisions are so 
much handier--an inch is just a more useful size to me than a cm, and a foot 
so much handier than a decimeter, etc. And 1/3 of a unit is so much easier 
to visualize than 1/10 of a unit; 1/12 of a unit is easier to visualize than 
1/100, and so on. (Also, 12 is more divisble into whole units than 10, and 
36 just as many as 100!)

But then, I generally think that systems that evolve over time work better 
than something that springs forth complete from the very first.  It's, well, 
it's all broken in by the time I use it!  If something was going to need 
fixing, it's already been fixed! (I also prefer used cars. Not that that's a 
perfect analogy...) The imperial system evolved intuitively, and the metric 
system is rigidly rational--as numbers-oriented as I am, I'm still so much 
more an intuitive person than a rational person.

-E House 

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Thread-Topic: lining & bag lining
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Subject: [h-cost] lining & bag lining
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Hi, does anyone know when lining garments came into widespread practice?
All the pictures I've seen of the Greenland garments and in _Textiles
and Clothing: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, c.1150-c.1450_
are unlined. Yet nearly everything in Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion: The
Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women C1560-1620_ is lined
to some extent. I remember from Robin's lecture that lining the gothic
fitted dress is very important to the structure of the garment -- do we
have any archeological evidence that the gothic fitted dresses _were_
lined? I know that there are a couple textural references to lining (I
don't know how extensive these references are -- I can think of one
off-hand from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_), and I'm sure I can find
art-references with pictures showing the interior of the garment a
different color then the exterior but that could easily be done for
art-composition reasons rather then as a depiction of reality... so,
does anyone know when lining came into use? (It's always possible that
my understanding of the Greenland garments is incomplete -- I haven't
gotten _Woven into the Earth: Textiles from Norse Greenland" yet.)

A corollary thing I was wondering -- does anyone know when the first
instance of "bag lining" is? I've been working on a dress in the style
of the Bayeux tapestry, and I don't know if I can reasonably bag-line
the sleeves -- initially I haven't, but not doing so is really bugging
me from a modern "use good sewing techniques" standpoint. Yet I don't
know if it's something that would or would not be done in 1066...

Thanks for listening to me ramble!
	-sunny


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Subject: [h-cost] silk lacing cord (was: buttonhole finishes)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:15:32 -0600
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To veer slightly from the topic (but not so much, really) does anyone know 
of a website where I could order some nice thick silk cord? The thickest 
I've been able to find is 1mm, and I'd like something at least 2mm. Whether 
I go with the loops idea or not, I'd like something in a strong, shiny 
natural fiber for lacing up the back, and if I do go with loops, I'll want 
to use the same cord.

(I'm not sure I'm visualizing exactly what you guys were suggesting, but 
I've thought of a way I could use loops without destroying the overall 
look... the problem, of course, is that I'll have to redo both buttonhole 
strips, but that's better than some of my other options!)

I could probably stand to use polyester, but the color of the corset is not 
exactly standard... it's a warm, faded out sort of dark blue, like denim 
blue but slightly greener, which completely and utterly fails to match the 
standard navy color. Silk cord in general is available in more colors than 
poly, and if it's wrong, I'd be able to dye it. Cotton cord wouldn't be 
strong enough, and linen cord would be too abrasive. Ramie cord might work, 
but I've never heard of such an animal. Whatever it is, it needs to be able 
to stand up to a lot of friction and a lot of pulling.  I'd prefer something 
smooth like rattail, but I'd be find with something plyed.  Any ideas where 
I could find something like this? I'll need ~7yds of it.

Also, are there any search terms better than 'silk cord' or 'silk rope'? 
'Silk cord' is getting me nothing but the too-thin beading cords, and 'silk 
rope' is getting me nothing but results that offend my sensibilities in 
oh-so-many ways.  What I really want is a real silk version of the faux silk 
rattail cords, but every result I've gotten from searching for 'silk 
rattail' or variations thereof has been either faux silk (rayon/cotton) or 
antique.

-E House 

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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:25:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord (was: buttonhole finishes)
From: aquazoo@patriot.net
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     Silk has poor abrasion resistance, and while you can replace a lacing
cord it would be a real pain to replace the loops in front.

     I suggest ice skate laces.  They come in cotton and nylon, and I know
the nylon is really easy to dye.  Ok, nylon is not natural, but maybe
the cotton type would work?

     -Carol


> To veer slightly from the topic (but not so much, really) does anyone know
> of a website where I could order some nice thick silk cord? The thickest
> I've been able to find is 1mm, and I'd like something at least 2mm.
> Whether
> I go with the loops idea or not, I'd like something in a strong, shiny
> natural fiber for lacing up the back, and if I do go with loops, I'll want
> to use the same cord.
>
> (I'm not sure I'm visualizing exactly what you guys were suggesting, but
> I've thought of a way I could use loops without destroying the overall
> look... the problem, of course, is that I'll have to redo both buttonhole
> strips, but that's better than some of my other options!)
>
> I could probably stand to use polyester, but the color of the corset is
> not
> exactly standard... it's a warm, faded out sort of dark blue, like denim
> blue but slightly greener, which completely and utterly fails to match the
> standard navy color. Silk cord in general is available in more colors than
> poly, and if it's wrong, I'd be able to dye it. Cotton cord wouldn't be
> strong enough, and linen cord would be too abrasive. Ramie cord might
> work,
> but I've never heard of such an animal. Whatever it is, it needs to be
> able
> to stand up to a lot of friction and a lot of pulling.  I'd prefer
> something
> smooth like rattail, but I'd be find with something plyed.  Any ideas
> where
> I could find something like this? I'll need ~7yds of it.
>
> Also, are there any search terms better than 'silk cord' or 'silk rope'?
> 'Silk cord' is getting me nothing but the too-thin beading cords, and
> 'silk
> rope' is getting me nothing but results that offend my sensibilities in
> oh-so-many ways.  What I really want is a real silk version of the faux
> silk
> rattail cords, but every result I've gotten from searching for 'silk
> rattail' or variations thereof has been either faux silk (rayon/cotton) or
> antique.
>
> -E House
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord (was: buttonhole finishes)
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Cotton snaps too easily--believe me, I've done it.  =}  But ooh, I hadn't 
thought of nylon; that might work. The customer isn't really looking for a 
reproduction; she wants a nice fashion corset, so the natural fiber element 
is purely because I'd need to dye it. Thanks for the idea!

(But I still really, really want to find some silk cord; if not for this, 
then for lacing gowns and sleeves shut.)

-E House


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <aquazoo@patriot.net>

>     I suggest ice skate laces.  They come in cotton and nylon, and I know
> the nylon is really easy to dye. 

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Oddly enough, I've found what you're looking for in beading shops. they
just called it silk cord.

Arlys

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:15:32 -0600 "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
writes:
> To veer slightly from the topic (but not so much, really) does anyone 
> know 
> of a website where I could order some nice thick silk cord? The 
> thickest 
> I've been able to find is 1mm, and I'd like something at least 2mm. 
> Whether 
> I go with the loops idea or not, I'd like something in a strong, 
> shiny 
> natural fiber for lacing up the back, and if I do go with loops, 
> I'll want 
> to use the same cord.

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To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:23:46 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord (was: buttonhole finishes)
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Maybe braided cord, like fingerloop?

Arlys

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:40:55 -0600 "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
writes:
> Cotton snaps too easily--believe me, I've done it.  =}  But ooh, I 
> hadn't 
> thought of nylon; that might work. The customer isn't really looking 
> for a 
> reproduction; she wants a nice fashion corset, so the natural fiber 
> element 
> is purely because I'd need to dye it. Thanks for the idea!
> 
> (But I still really, really want to find some silk cord; if not for 
> this, 
> then for lacing gowns and sleeves shut.)
> 
> -E House
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <aquazoo@patriot.net>
> 
> >     I suggest ice skate laces.  They come in cotton and nylon, and 
> I know
> > the nylon is really easy to dye. 
> 
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000c01c4ff2e$384b3d50$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fashion print.
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  Sounds smashingly spiffy!

Liadain

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 1:25 PM
Subject: [h-cost] fashion print.


> Oh i am so happy, my niece tryed the corset and the bodice, and it was 
> very well. She gets such a beautifull body in this corset, and beautifull 
> clevage two.
> Then i have ben speculating how i could embellish the dress so that the 
> over and underskirt in same shocking pink would be better noticed.
> I looked trough Stella Blums book with fashion prints, and found the 
> solution. Anglaise dress bordée de Marlborough, wich will say that there 
> are two green panels inserted in the fronts of the overskirt. The fashion 
> print has pink anglaise and green panels stitched with bordeaux ribbons. 
> The underskirt has also a little green insertion with same bordeaux 
> ribbons. I can do that!
> Then the lady is wearing a white fichue with spots in pink. My Seta silk 
> paint will come in handy here, i shall try to paint the fichu with spots 
> of pink.
> The sleaves ends in white frills, starting over the elbow, looks very 
> nice.
> I shall have a very bad night, i cant sleep because i cant wait to start 
> it tomorrow.
> The print is on page 43 in Stella Blums book.
> Hurrah, how lucky i looked in that book.........
> Sorry about this but i am so excited!
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 


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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20050120.142508.920.2.Cley@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord (was: buttonhole finishes)
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I'm looking for something smooth--I've been using braided cord, and I'm just 
not entirely happy with it. There are too many highly detailed paintings 
showing smooth cord for me to be sure it's just an artistic convention...

Are you sure what you're finding at beading supply shops is 100% silk? All 
I've seen from them is either imitation silk (rayon w/cotton filling) or 
too-thin plyed silk.  If it is 100% silk, wherewherewhere?!

-E House 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord
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E House wrote:

> I'm looking for something smooth--I've been using braided cord, and 
> I'm just not entirely happy with it. There are too many highly 
> detailed paintings showing smooth cord for me to be sure it's just an 
> artistic convention...
>
> Are you sure what you're finding at beading supply shops is 100% silk? 
> All I've seen from them is either imitation silk (rayon w/cotton 
> filling) or too-thin plyed silk.  If it is 100% silk, wherewherewhere?!
>
> -E House


The silk cord at beading shops is probably this:

http://www.firemountaingems.com/details.asp?PN=H141607BS

It's actually a tube of silk fabric sewn down its length. As a matter of 
fact, I'm using some of this to lace my new 1480s Florentine, just 
because it was the best thing I happened to have on hand.

-- Andrea
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:11:04 -0600
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Ahh, that--cool, but not what I'm hoping to find.  Thanks for the visual!

-E House


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrea McElwain" <andie@whidbey.com>
> The silk cord at beading shops is probably this:
> > http://www.firemountaingems.com/details.asp?PN=H141607BS

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] lining & bag lining
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At 02:14 PM 1/20/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi, does anyone know when lining garments came into widespread practice?
>All the pictures I've seen of the Greenland garments and in _Textiles
>and Clothing: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, c.1150-c.1450_
>are unlined. [snip] (It's always possible that
>my understanding of the Greenland garments is incomplete -- I haven't
>gotten _Woven into the Earth: Textiles from Norse Greenland" yet.)
>
>[snip]..
>
>Thanks for listening to me ramble!
>         -sunny

I have read Woven Into the Earth (more than once, now; yes, I'm somewhat 
fanatic on early textiles <g>). Unfortunately, the conditions in soils in 
the Greenland settlements do not allow for the survival of linen (or fur or 
skeletons, for that matter) in any quantity.  The surviving garments are 
nearly all wool.  Since one of the linen fragments survived by being sewn 
to a vadmal (woolen) garment, if the woolen garments had been lined, one 
would expect to find some indication of the lining.  None is reported.


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: [h-cost] Lyme disease - was re:  OT: cleaning fake fur
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--- Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:

> And one of the warning signs for Lime Disease (the
> bulls eye).
> Kathleen

Lyme disease actually, named after some towns in
Connecticut (Old Lyme, Hadlyme, etc.)

About 50% of cases get the bullseye rash.

You must be cautious of ticks from most animals around
here in Connecticut, as birds and mammals, not to
mention the occasional grass stem, have the tiny deer
ticks.

And lyme disease can affect joints in some of its
milder manifestions, enough to make sewing quite a
pain.
Also dressing.


Clothing:  wear light colored clothing when hiking, so
you can find the ticks afterwards more easily.

Ann in CT


		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] lining & bag lining
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 sunshine_buchler@agilent.com wrote:

> Hi, does anyone know when lining garments came into widespread
> practice? All the pictures I've seen of the Greenland garments and in
> _Textiles and Clothing: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London,
> c.1150-c.1450_ are unlined. Yet nearly everything in Arnold's
> _Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and
> Women C1560-1620_ is lined to some extent. I remember from Robin's
> lecture that lining the gothic fitted dress is very important to the
> structure of the garment -- do we have any archeological evidence that
> the gothic fitted dresses _were_ lined?

Since we don't have any extant GFDs, there's no archaeological evidence
about them at all! The Greenland gowns are not fitted garments, and
certainly not GFDs. (Although they come from about 1400, they structurally
have more in common with the cut of garments of maybe 1330-1350 on the
mainland, with some deviations that may be unique to Greenland.)

Someone else asked me about this just a few days ago, in almost exactly
the same words as above. Here's what I wrote her (including key bits of
her questions to me; I don't think she'll mind my reprinting here). This
also touches on Joan's additional questions about text and art sources,
and about bag lining.

-----the quote starts here-----

> I am confused about the lining though.  I was under the impression
> from the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing book that the garment
> fragments they found were woolens that had been faced with tabby woven
> silk...

This is a common question. There are several things to bear in mind here.

First, the MoL fragments represent, essentially, trash and lost items that
landed in the Thames. It's highly unlikely that many, or any, of these
come from expensive body garments worn by the nobility and wealthy middle
class. There are identifiable pieces of hoods, an occasional torn-off
sleeve, etc., but when you consider the sorts of things that would have
been most likely discarded or lost, you're far more likely to be looking
at a child's cloak, a shop apron, a piece of sacking, or a rag than part
of an upper-class body garment.

Second, archaeological finds generally are incomplete. The soil conditions
that preserve wool and silk (protein fibers) generally dissolve linen
(plant fibers). Wool pieces will be found intact with their seams undone,
because the linen thread that held them together vanished without a trace.
You can tell something from stitch holes and wear patterns, but in many
cases, particularly fragments, it's impossible to tell if a garment was
lined.

Third, not all garments were lined, and not all that were lined were
necessarily fully lined. So the absence of lining on a sleeve tells us
nothing about the body, for example, and the absence of lining on a hood
tells us nothing about the gown worn with it.

For this sort of information, we can't rely only on the archaeological
record to get a full picture. If you look at documentary sources, the
picture is quite different. In inventories, tailors' orders, wills,
maintenance agreements, and other documents that list details or materials
of clothing, you'll find references to linings of various materials and in
various circumstances. My own familiarity with this is limited to specific
quotations about linings from certain documents, but other researchers who
spend more time with documents (e.g. those studying trade or economics, or
translating wills and inventories) have commented that linings begin
appearing with some regularity in the 14th century, becoming much more
common by the end of the century. One speculation is that this is related
to climate change, which might be a factor, but even without that it's
easy enough to see the increased use of linings as another facet of the
massive changes in fashion and increased embellishment and complexity in
garment construction that occur during this century.

What does seem clear is that while many garments would not have been
lined, linings can be practically taken for granted in the more expensive,
better-made body garments of the nobility and prosperous middle class.
Documents suggest linen as a standout lining fabric for routine use, silk
for the royalty and very wealthy. And I've even seen references to wool
gowns lined in wool for church dependants -- who received only sufficient
supplies to meet basic needs, including an allotment of a single gown
every year or two. So linings for body garments eventually became common
enough to be considered a basic requirement for warmth and durability.

And this doesn't even touch on the use of fur linings, which have been
documented extensively. They would have been used in some cases on the
basic gown, and extensively on the overgown worn over the basic gown
(which in turn goes over a linen chemise to make the standard set of
layers).

...

A final source of supporting clues comes from artwork. Flipped-up edges
aren't necessarily telling in earlier art works, where color contrast
would likely be used to show different surfaces regardless of actual color
in life. However, by the 14th and 15th centuries, there are plenty of
examples of more realistic images of garments with visible patterned,
furred, or textured inner surfaces.

So I wouldn't read too much into the lack of extant linings in a small
sample of cloth bits dragged out of the Thames. The MoL books are highly
useful for what they provide, but it can be misleading to extrapolate too
far. (Plus, as one of the London authors said to me, "You wouldn't believe
how many kites we're flying in these books. We can only guess on what half
of this stuff is.")

> ... Are your gowns flatlined or lined by making two of the same and
> then sewing them together?

... I frankly don't know how lining was done in period. The few examples
we have of medieval lined garments (not archaeological finds, but things
like religious relics and preserved royal garments) have not, to my
knowledge, been properly written up to tell us which order the seams were
done in, so I have no clue what of the several possible lining methods
were used in the period.

However, I do what some people today would call a bag lining. ... I fit
the lining first as a complete dress (without sleeves), and then use the
resulting pieces as a template for the outer layer. Then assemble all and
tweak to account for differences in stretch between inner and outer
fabrics. This makes it very easy to do the fitting, because you don't have
to turn anything inside out -- the lining is going to have the seams away
from the body. It also means you can do useful things like patch or
correct errors in the lining layer during the fitting process, or cut the
outer fabric to use fewer gores. The strong linen lining also takes most
of the stress from supporting and manipulating the body, and the
stretchier wool then glides over it, molding into shape and hiding the
stress lines that would be evident on the linen alone.

-----the quote ends here-----

Joan also wrote:

> I know that there are a couple textural references to lining (I don't
> know how extensive these references are -- I can think of one off-hand
> from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_)...

I have that book, but I don't know the reference. Can you point me to it,
please?

To this I'll add, for purposes of this group: You'll find some of those
textual references to lining in "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince"
by Newton. Another nice source is "Standards of Living in the Later Middle
Ages," which is not specifically about costume, but includes some nice
costume references from documents. I believe this is the book in which I
saw that church maintenance agreement that specified wool gowns lined with
wool for dependents. In this case, IIRC, it was an older married couple
who had given their land and goods to the church in exchange for support
till their death. As part of their allotment, the husband received a new
gown of russet (undyed wool from a black sheep) lined with blanket (undyed
white wool) each year, while the wife was allowed a gown of bluett (wool
dyed blue, the cheapest dyed cloth) lined with blanket -- but she got one
only every other year, because the dyed cloth was more expensive. Such a
wonderful citation, as it also tells us that russet was preferred to
blanket, and dyed cloth to undyed -- something borne out by the prices
Dyer cites for all three types of cloth.

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk lacing cord
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Might I suggest finger-loop braid, or lucet? Those can both be used to 
produce sturdy cords, and you can make them of whatever yarn/string you 
like....
--sue

E House wrote:

> Cotton snaps too easily--believe me, I've done it.  =}  But ooh, I 
> hadn't thought of nylon; that might work. The customer isn't really 
> looking for a reproduction; she wants a nice fashion corset, so the 
> natural fiber element is purely because I'd need to dye it. Thanks for 
> the idea!
> 
> (But I still really, really want to find some silk cord; if not for 
> this, then for lacing gowns and sleeves shut.)
> 
> -E House
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <aquazoo@patriot.net>
> 
>>     I suggest ice skate laces.  They come in cotton and nylon, and I know
>> the nylon is really easy to dye. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] lining & bag lining
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Thanks, Robin! This post is definitely a keeper!
--sue

Robin wrote:


> Someone else asked me about this just a few days ago, in almost exactly
> the same words as above. Here's what I wrote her (including key bits of
> her questions to me; I don't think she'll mind my reprinting here). This
> also touches on Joan's additional questions about text and art sources,
> and about bag lining.
> 
> -----the quote starts here-----
> <snipped>


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Well better the cotton then the polyester.
Somewhere I read that someone made an outfit as close to authentic as was
possible. She had wrote that she used cotton velvet because it was closer to
the weight and drape of 1500s silk velvet. It was a gorgeous red and gold
dress.

De

-----Original Message-----
And you can use them on the cotton velvet - another thing we ended up
using a lot, even though we felt sorry for the actors wearing this in July!
Rowena


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Lyme disease - was re:  OT: cleaning fake fur
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I get these confused, bear with me. Dark colored materials tend to attract
mosquitoes or ticks. light colored materials attract mosquitoes or ticks.
Mosquitoes are the dive bombers. Ticks are the kamikazes. Basically ticks
like to clime up things and drop down on their victims. One recommendation
from an avid outdoors man. "ticks and mosquitoes are attracted to sweet
blood (that's a slang description) so if you go out hiking, avoid eating
sweets 24 hrs before ya go" Of coarse he recommended some other stuff for
tick and mosquitoes "repellents" besides the bug spray.
Lyme disease was named after Lyme, Connecticut where it first came to the
doctors' attention, I think sometime in the 70s.
Lyme disease is believe to have migrated from Europe were there is a disease
that matches the Lyme disease, in medical journals all the way back to
1900s.
Lyme disease carriers are the deer tick.
Symptoms are swelling of the joints similar to arthritis.
75% of those who have been infected with Lyme will have a rash appear,
usually in a bull's eye pattern and warm to touch 3 - 30 days after the bit,
followed by fever, flu like symptoms and achy joints.
treatment is antibiotics.

De

-----Original Message-----

> And one of the warning signs for Lime Disease (the
> bulls eye).
> Kathleen

Lyme disease actually, named after some towns in Connecticut (Old Lyme,
Hadlyme, etc.)
About 50% of cases get the bullseye rash.

You must be cautious of ticks from most animals around here in Connecticut,
as birds and mammals, not to
mention the occasional grass stem, have the tiny deer ticks.
And lyme disease can affect joints in some of its milder manifestions,
enough to make sewing quite a pain.
Also dressing.
Clothing:  wear light colored clothing when hiking, so
you can find the ticks afterwards more easily.

Ann in CT



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Stephen,

My husband's grandmother could do that, too.  There are family stories of 
how she made her 3 daughter's wedding dresses - since they couldn't afford 
to buy one in the store, she would look at dresses in the stores and in 
magazines, then make up whichever one they wanted from the picture.  Also, 
there was a close friend's family, who was also not so well off, who had 
just bought a first communion dress for their daughter after saving a long 
time for it.  Then, the girl's sister (very close in age) became ill and 
died.  The only thing they had to bury her in was the new communion dress. 
Needless to say, the girl was doubly sad - her sister died, and she had to 
give up her new dress.  Pierre's grandmother looked at the dress for about 
15 minutes - while appearing to pray by the coffin.  Then she made a copy 
of it and gave it to the little girl.
She was a wonderful woman who came to the U.S. from Sicily when she was 
about 15 or 16, before WW I.  Her daughters all sewed, but none of them got 
the creation gene.
Me - I'm slightly left/right dyslexic, and hate patterning and fitting - 
hubby does most of that.  I'm good at technical sewing, and figuring out 
what goes where.

Sandy

At 02:55 AM 1/20/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:26:04 -0800
>From: Stephen Bergdahl <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
>
>Ok, it's not just me.  I have spent years pounding my head against the
>wall, because I can look at a garment and then just draft a pattern.
>And I just could not figure out that why everyone else didn't just do
>the same.  My wife on more than one occasion has come home to find me
>finishing up her a new work outfit, and asked where I got the pattern,
>only to be meet with a blank stare, and what pattern.  I just thought
>that everyone could do that.
>
>Stephen

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi
My 2 cents with the greenland finds also are that they braught with them 
sheeps and was able to make wool, flax could not grow in Greenland and they 
rarely got visitors from Norway. It is very far from Europe and therefore my 
guess would be that they could not line their garments with linen. They had 
to stick to what they had, wool.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Hmmmm... I have a vague memory form reading something (one of the Janet
Arnold books perhaps) of a period fake fur on a surviving garment that
was a non-natural colour (possibly red)  I only rememebr it because I
shuddered at the time at the thought of a period version of "fun fur"
being used on garments.

Teddy
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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> I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green, 
> but there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color, 
> namely silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's 
> created, whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a 
> sewn rug.
> 
> If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink* 
> silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being 
> portrayed is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome 
> means I can't remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I 
> _think_ it was Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental 
> cross-index know what garment I'm talking about and where to find it?

That's it!   That's the stuff I rememebr (though I don't rememebr if
it's silk or wool shag... whatever- it reads as "fake fur in non-natural
(for fur) colours" to me.

QEWU, perhaps....?  I'm pretty sure it's in an Arnold book.. or article.

Teddy
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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> Teddy, obviously you have to move to the States, where we still
measure
> fabric in yards, and recipes use pounds and pints.

Hmmm.. might be a bit of a  long commute to work from there.... not to
mention swapping all the things I don't liek about England, for all the
things I wouldn't like about America.

> But I believe our cups
> and spoons vary slighly from yours -- in fact, an English friend
kindly
> sent me a set of British measuring cups and spoons to go with an old
> British recipe book. I should check and see if they're actually
different.

They are different - a friend was recently sent a set of American ones
so she could follow American recipes without the need for complicated
conversions/

Though I understand that the American recipe obsession for measuring
everything in "cup" even if it's something that doesn't neatly or easily
*fit* in a cup is a source of some amusement to people I know who cook
and bake (not me,  can assist under direction from a cook and I am a
demon at hte washing up but I'm not a cook).

Teddy
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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Yes, our recipes expect you to weigh dry ingredients. Modern ones give
both metric and imperial units (and warn you not to mix them). I have an
American recipe booklet from the Quaker Oats company, reissued in the UK
with the explanation that a "cup" is 8 fl. oz. and giving the weight of
a cup of butter. I use a pint measuring jug which has fl. oz. markings.

Kate Bunting (who learned science in metric but still thinks in
imperial.)

>>> Teddy@mdx.ac.uk 21/01/2005 10:18:25 >>>

>Though I understand that the American recipe obsession for measuring
>everything in "cup" even if it's something that doesn't neatly or
easily
>*fit* in a cup is a source of some amusement to people 
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Lyme disease - was re:  OT: cleaning fake fur
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Basically, deer ticks are dark, so they show up
against light colored clothing more easily.
Your chances of catching Lyme disease are very small
if the tick does not have time to imbed itself in your
skin.
And you need all the help you can get to find an
insect somewhere between the size of a period (.) and
an 'o'.

My sister's Lyme disease had no bullseye; her first
symptoms were painful joints, & the doctors diagnosed
Lyme by ruling out everything else.  She had to go on
several courses of antibiotics to cure it.
Some unfortunate people's first symptoms are damaged
hearts.

Lyme, CT, also Old Lyme, Hadlyme, East Lyme, etc.  all
in the same area.

Ann in CT

--- otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:

> I get these confused, bear with me. light colored 
> materials attract mosquitoes or ticks.
> Basically ticks like to clime up things and drop 
> down on their victims. 
> Lyme disease carriers are the deer tick.
> De
> 
> Clothing:  wear light colored clothing when hiking,
> so you can find the ticks afterwards more easily.
> 
> Ann in CT



		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] linnen and bag lining
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At 10:41 AM 1/21/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi
>My 2 cents with the greenland finds also are that they braught with them 
>sheeps and was able to make wool, flax could not grow in Greenland and 
>they rarely got visitors from Norway. It is very far from Europe and 
>therefore my guess would be that they could not line their garments with 
>linen. They had to stick to what they had, wool.
>
>Bjarne
>
>
>Leif og Bjarne Drews
>www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
>http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

Actually, there are finds that seem to be flax-processing equipment and 
there are a few finds of linen fragments.  When the Norse initially 
colonized Greenland the climate there was more like parts of Sweden or 
Norway where flax can be (and has been) grown.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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The brown one, as I think of it.  _Patterns of Fashion, 1580-1620_. 
Dunno if it's also in QEUnlocked--I've got that one, too, but no time to 
look it up this morning.
--Sue

Teddy wrote:

>>I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green, 
>>but there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color, 
>>namely silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's 
>>created, whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a 
>>sewn rug.
>>
>>If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink* 
>>silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being 
>>portrayed is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome 
>>means I can't remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I 
>>_think_ it was Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental 
>>cross-index know what garment I'm talking about and where to find it?
> 
> 
> That's it!   That's the stuff I rememebr (though I don't rememebr if
> it's silk or wool shag... whatever- it reads as "fake fur in non-natural
> (for fur) colours" to me.
> 
> QEWU, perhaps....?  I'm pretty sure it's in an Arnold book.. or article.
> 
> Teddy


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Subject: [h-cost] RE:  (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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Status: RO

Most if not all Pyrex measuring cups have both metric and standard
measurements on them.
What you call imperial measurements or units, here I have heard it refered
to as "standard".
De

-----Original Message-----
Yes, our recipes expect you to weigh dry ingredients. Modern ones give
both metric and imperial units (and warn you not to mix them). I have an
American recipe booklet from the Quaker Oats company, reissued in the UK
with the explanation that a "cup" is 8 fl. oz. and giving the weight of
a cup of butter. I use a pint measuring jug which has fl. oz. markings.

Kate Bunting (who learned science in metric but still thinks in
imperial.)



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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There are several references to night-gowns and loose gowns lined with silk 
shag in QEWU (pg. 139 et seq.).  And figure 225 shows the inside of a loose 
gown lined with grey silk shag (c. 1605-15).  There is even a reference on 
page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned 
with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned 
with shagge."  The pink silk shag that has been referred to is the lining 
of Jane Lambarde's crimson velvet mantle (decorated with silver and gold 
bobbin lace with silver spangles!), c. 1600-28; there is a portrait of Jane 
Lambarde wearing the mantle.  These are in QEWU on page 321, figures 414 
and 415.
I wouldn't recommend that inexpensive fake fur be used to get the look of 
shag, though.  To get the right look you will probably need the high end stuff.
Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA

At 07:34 AM 1/21/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>The brown one, as I think of it.  _Patterns of Fashion, 1580-1620_. Dunno 
>if it's also in QEUnlocked--I've got that one, too, but no time to look it 
>up this morning.
>--Sue
>
>Teddy wrote:
>
>>>I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green, but 
>>>there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color, namely 
>>>silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's created, 
>>>whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a sewn rug.
>>>
>>>If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink* 
>>>silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being 
>>>portrayed is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome 
>>>means I can't remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I 
>>>_think_ it was Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental 
>>>cross-index know what garment I'm talking about and where to find it?
>>
>>That's it!   That's the stuff I rememebr (though I don't rememebr if
>>it's silk or wool shag... whatever- it reads as "fake fur in non-natural
>>(for fur) colours" to me.
>>QEWU, perhaps....?  I'm pretty sure it's in an Arnold book.. or article.
>>Teddy

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At Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:11:14 +0000, Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk> responded:

> > but there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color,
> > namely silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's
> > created, whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a
> > sewn rug.
> >
> > If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink*
> > silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being
> > portrayed is wearing the same mantle...
>
>That's it!   That's the stuff I rememebr (though I don't rememebr if
>it's silk or wool shag... whatever- it reads as "fake fur in non-natural
>(for fur) colours" to me.
>
>QEWU, perhaps....?  I'm pretty sure it's in an Arnold book.. or article.

Hmm... I *thought* it was the Verney robe in PoF (#37, described p. 98, 
pattern p. 100), but going back to that, I get:

"A rich purple silk damask loose gown with hanging sleeves, lined with deep 
grey silk shag, now faded. By tradition this was worn, together with 
matching nightcap and slippers, by Sir Francis Verney who died in 1615 at 
Messina."

Grey lining, not pink, for this one.

B/W Photos of the gown may be found on p. 38, items 267-271.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Subject: [h-cost] Movie The Advocate
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I rented an old dvd movie called the Advocate and watched it last 
night.  If you all discussed it when it came out in 2000 and want to 
ignore this, fine, but if anyone specializes in this period of history, 
the 1400s, I was wondering what you thought of the costumes.  You don't 
see many movies from this period and I thought the clothing looked 
quite accurate.  A good movie too.

Sylrog

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From: Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movie The Advocate
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:

> I rented an old dvd movie called the Advocate and watched it last
> night.  If you all discussed it when it came out in 2000 and want to
> ignore this, fine, but if anyone specializes in this period of
> history, the 1400s, I was wondering what you thought of the costumes.  
> You don't see many movies from this period and I thought the clothing
> looked quite accurate.  A good movie too.

Definitely a good movie, but the only costume I can remember is the one
that stood out to me as horrid -- the V-necked dress worn by the rich
girl, which screamed "stage costume." I have the vague memory that most of
the others were better, though.

--Robin

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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: visual patterning
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I wish I were so cursed ;)  Sandy, I have the same problem as you.
 
I am looking forward to Lunacon and seeing what marvelous creations you've been working on.
 
Best of Regards,
Chris G

Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net> wrote:
Stephen,

My husband's grandmother could do that, too. There are family stories of 
how she made her 3 daughter's wedding dresses - since they couldn't afford 
to buy one in the store, she would look at dresses in the stores and in 
magazines, then make up whichever one they wanted from the picture. Also, 
there was a close friend's family, who was also not so well off, who had 
just bought a first communion dress for their daughter after saving a long 
time for it. Then, the girl's sister (very close in age) became ill and 
died. The only thing they had to bury her in was the new communion dress. 
Needless to say, the girl was doubly sad - her sister died, and she had to 
give up her new dress. Pierre's grandmother looked at the dress for about 
15 minutes - while appearing to pray by the coffin. Then she made a copy 
of it and gave it to the little girl.
She was a wonderful woman who came to the U.S. from Sicily when she was 
about 15 or 16, before WW I. Her daughters all sewed, but none of them got 
the creation gene.
Me - I'm slightly left/right dyslexic, and hate patterning and fitting - 
hubby does most of that. I'm good at technical sewing, and figuring out 
what goes where.

Sandy

At 02:55 AM 1/20/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:26:04 -0800
>From: Stephen Bergdahl 
>
>Ok, it's not just me. I have spent years pounding my head against the
>wall, because I can look at a garment and then just draft a pattern.
>And I just could not figure out that why everyone else didn't just do
>the same.
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Greetings,

One of the garments at the Albert Bonno Museum in Chelles has a stole/ 
mantle of linen that has a pile woven in.  The pile was about 1" long 
and fairly sparse, which could be due to age related deterioration.  
The garment is circa 650 and is attributed to Bertille (or was it 
Bathilde...too early/before coffee)

Althea

On Friday, January 21, 2005, at 02:11 AM, Teddy wrote:

>
>> I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green,
>> but there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color,
>> namely silk shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's
>> created, whether it's woven in or added later like constructing a
>> sewn rug.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink*
>> silk shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being
>> portrayed is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome
>> means I can't remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I
>> _think_ it was Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental
>> cross-index know what garment I'm talking about and where to find it?
>
> That's it!   That's the stuff I rememebr (though I don't rememebr if
> it's silk or wool shag... whatever- it reads as "fake fur in 
> non-natural
> (for fur) colours" to me.
>
> QEWU, perhaps....?  I'm pretty sure it's in an Arnold book.. or 
> article.
>
> Teddy
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
Althea Turner
*** althea@alfalfapress.com
*** http://www.alfalfapress.com

I think, therefore I'm dangerous.

I'll be Post-Feminist in a Post-Patriarchy

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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:16:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movie The Advocate
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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>
> I rented an old dvd movie called the Advocate and watched it last
> night.  If you all discussed it when it came out in 2000 and want to
> ignore this, fine, but if anyone specializes in this period of history,
> the 1400s, I was wondering what you thought of the costumes.  You don't
> see many movies from this period and I thought the clothing looked
> quite accurate.  A good movie too.
>
> Sylrog

This era is not my forte but I remember the men's costumes being very
good.  I agree with Robin that the girl's dress was not quite right, but
in general this movie had good costuming.

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan Jurancich"

SNIP

>  There is even a reference on
> page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned
> with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned
> with shagge."

Hmmm, so what you are saying is that big furry,fluffy slippers are period?
;-)

Sheridan
-who now has images of lovely Elizabethan gowns with pink bunny slippers
going through my head....


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From: "Shane & Sheridan" <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <s1f0de4a.012@CSV6.derby.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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Then you have us poor Canuks that are caught right in between both systems.

Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say: 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16 kilometers.'
Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)

Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric system in school, but at
home everyone still used the US Imperial. For my sewing I switch back and
forth depending on how accurate I need things to be. I buy my fabric by the
meter, but measure myself and my own patterns in inches, unless I'm doing
something really fiddly.

Sheridan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)-
Weights/measures...


> Yes, our recipes expect you to weigh dry ingredients. Modern ones give
> both metric and imperial units (and warn you not to mix them). I have an
> American recipe booklet from the Quaker Oats company, reissued in the UK
> with the explanation that a "cup" is 8 fl. oz. and giving the weight of
> a cup of butter. I use a pint measuring jug which has fl. oz. markings.
>
> Kate Bunting (who learned science in metric but still thinks in
> imperial.)
>
> >>> Teddy@mdx.ac.uk 21/01/2005 10:18:25 >>>
>
> >Though I understand that the American recipe obsession for measuring
> >everything in "cup" even if it's something that doesn't neatly or
> easily
> >*fit* in a cup is a source of some amusement to people
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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At 13:03 21/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Then you have us poor Canuks that are caught right in between both systems.
>
>Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say: 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
>Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16 kilometers.'
>Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
>
>Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric system in school, but at
>home everyone still used the US Imperial. For my sewing I switch back and
>forth depending on how accurate I need things to be. I buy my fabric by the
>meter, but measure myself and my own patterns in inches, unless I'm doing
>something really fiddly.


Sorry Sheridan, you've got the Englishman man wrong. It's "Well, you go 
past the "George and Dragon" (pub name) turn left and drive on till you get 
to the "King's Head" (pub name.................) etc.

And by the way, just to be really pedantic, we don't measure that kind of 
distances in kilometres......yet, thank goodness - they are still in miles.

And I measure like you (secretly I still use Imperial, but I'm afraid the 
metric police will come knocking one day and accuse me of buying a pound of 
mushrooms "That should be 500grams, Madam!!"

Suzi


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In response to Sylrog's question about "The Advocate", Diana wrote:

<<This era is not my forte but I remember the men's costumes being very
good.  I agree with Robin that the girl's dress was not quite right, but
in general this movie had good costuming.>>

That's a pretty good assessment, Diana.  And as Robin said, the lord's
daughter's outfit is completely bad theatre costuming.  Especially when
she drops it all in one piece!  ;)

The men's clothing is definitely better than the women's.  And the poor
women's clothing is often ridiculously bad and misinformed (see the
"witch" and the "prostitute" for the best examples of the worst
costuming).  And the Gypsies' outfit really scream the result someone's
tie-dyed night terrors <wink>.  But I particularly like the way the
Gypsies are portrayed.  And Jewish people.  The writers seem to have
gotten the feel of 15thc France down a lot more accurately than the
costumer designers.

Colin Firth's outfits are pretty good if you don't look too closely.
And I particularly applaud the costuming staff for the fact that even
the rich family only change their clothing when the seasons change (as
evidenced by the big festival).  While Colin Firth's character wears
different clothing when he's in court as opposed to when he's at home or
at the Lord's house, he doesn't have multiple outfits of the same style
that he wears on subsequent days.  And even the Lord wears the same
brocade gown for most of the movie.  This really impressed me.

I like the movie so much that I own it.  But I'd never base an outfit on
anything in it.  It's got serious problems.  But that being said, it is
probably one of the best medieval movies for costuming.

Kass

Reconstructing History Patterns
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:38:20 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
In-Reply-To: <002101c4ffe1$4a86f6e0$0a02a8c0@nodomainset.bellcanada>
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Uh...no.  They are merely lined with shag, not made of it. <G>
Joan

At 12:47 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joan Jurancich"
>
>SNIP
>
> >  There is even a reference on
> > page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned
> > with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned
> > with shagge."
>
>Hmmm, so what you are saying is that big furry,fluffy slippers are period?
>;-)
>
>Sheridan
>-who now has images of lovely Elizabethan gowns with pink bunny slippers
>going through my head....

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I have been having so much fun reading all of the emails from this site.
 Not only do I learn all sorts of stuff about patterns, knitting, and
fur.  But now I have example of the metric system for my chemistry
students here in Texas as to why knowing this system is important in
more than chemistry.  I do have to admit I rarely use the metric system
except in school, but it is still useful to students to be more than
just familiar with the names of the units.

I need to say thank you to several people who have sent me sites for
patterns and fabrics.  The more I read your site the more I learn.

Again thanks 
theresa


>>> ladyadele@paradise.net.nz 1/20/2005 1:41:40 PM >>>
Teddy wrote:

>>I say the same here, but then again, i cant get used to the 
>>meassures with  inches. I was educated with cm.
>>    
>>
>
>I was educated in metric too (ddin't start school until after the
change
>to metric took place) but still think in the old "imperial"
>measurements.
>
>  
>

Would you believe I use Imperial measure when sewing, but work out 
fabric requirements in metres?

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
----------------------------- 

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From: "Shane & Sheridan" <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Forged Memling 
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Just found this, thought folks here would be interested:


http://sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/01/20/Arts/flemishfake0
50120.html

Sheridan


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Shane & Sheridan wrote:

> Just found this, thought folks here would be interested:
> 
> 
> http://sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/01/20/Arts/flemishfake0
> 50120.html

For anyone who can't jet off to read the article immediately, it doesn't 
appear to be one of the ones we see a lot; it's been in the hands of a 
private collector since the 60s.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Well, there was a black pit of despair there for a while, but I managed 
to climb out of that into a grey vale of sorrow.   -- Rufinia
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> > I know that there are a couple textural references to lining (I
don't
> > know how extensive these references are -- I can think of one
off-hand
> > from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_)...
> 
> I have that book, but I don't know the reference. Can you point me to
it,
> please?

I'll have to go look it up -- I know it was something about humors --
but in my mind I have it filed under "Medieval health recommendations:
If allergic to wool, line it with linen" and I _know_ it wasn't phrased
that way in the book!

Thanks for sharing your research!
	-sunny


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Forged Memling
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At first when I saw this subject line, I thought "Oh, another one of those spams with a nonsense phrase as the subject."
Then I saw the [h-cost] and thought "Oh no, ANOTHER piece of armor I've never heard of! How deep is my ignorance?!?!?!?" I expected a discussion of CSA armorers, working at the forge, producing period memlings...
What a relief that it's about a forged Memling! I had not heard of Memling before, so my ignorance is still admittedly deep, but I'm learning all the time! (I do find art forgery and literary forgery fascinating topics.)
Thanks--
Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer


-----Original Message-----
From: Shane & Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Jan 21, 2005 2:00 PM
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] Forged Memling 

Just found this, thought folks here would be interested:


http://sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/01/20/Arts/flemishfake0
50120.html

Sheridan


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From: Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: lining & bag lining 
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 sunshine_buchler@agilent.com wrote:

> > > from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_)...
> 
> I'll have to go look it up -- I know it was something about humors --
> but in my mind I have it filed under "Medieval health recommendations:
> If allergic to wool, line it with linen" and I _know_ it wasn't phrased
> that way in the book!

Oh, that's from either the "Medieval Health Handbook" or "The Four Seasons
of the House of Cerruti," both of which examine the several Tacuinum
Sanitatus manuscripts. There are entries for both wool and linen (as well
as silk) which we've discussed here before. (It's important to consider
them in light of the fact that the text originated in the Islamic world,
but the illustrations are from Northern Italy with a strong nod to French
style. Makes for some interesting mixes and potential internal
contradictions!) I'm not sure if the word "lining" is used, and if so, in
which translation, but I also do remember the passage about mitigating the
dangers of wool by using linen under it.

"A Medieval Book of Seasons" is a coffee-table book that has a lot of
really nice pictures and really lousy credit/caption information.

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] ACW homespun dress
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Just before Christmas I was lucky enough to purchase a homespun dress from
the period of the American Civil War from North Carolina.  I have created a
webpage with photographs, information, a couple of bodice sketches, a
possible fabric layout, comparisons with other fabrics, a sketch of a
possible pocket, rough estimate of how much weaving thread was required,
and rough estimate of how long to produce from pulling seeds from cotton to
finished dress.  If you see any typographical errors or (horrors!) math
mistakes, please let me know.  I've tried to cover all of the bases, but
except for getting dyes chemically analyzed, which would be expensive and
destructive, I can't think of anything else.  There's lots of thumbnails,
so the page may be a little slow to load.

http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/furr_homespun_dress.htm

If you would like additional information on homespun in the South during
the American Civil War, I have a few things posted at:
http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/homespun_intro.htm

Vicki Betts
vbetts@gower.net

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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:28:10 -0600 (CST) Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
writes:
> 
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 sunshine_buchler@agilent.com wrote:
> 
> > > > from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_)...
> > 
> > I'll have to go look it up -- I know it was something about humors 
> -- > but in my mind I have it filed under "Medieval health 
> recommendations:
> > If allergic to wool, line it with linen" and I _know_ it wasn't 
> phrased that way in the book!

I *hope* whoever said it was kidding! Someone with a serious wool allergy
should be wearing it *at all*!

Wool can work past a fiber barrier. 

Arlys, who IS allergic to wool

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Just for interest sake...did you know that people allergic to sheep's wool
can almost always wear llama wool? I guess it doesn't have the same
irritation factor that sheep's wool does.

Talia

------------------------------------------------------

I *hope* whoever said it was kidding! Someone with a serious wool allergy
should be wearing it *at all*!

Wool can work past a fiber barrier.

Arlys, who IS allergic to wool


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:57:35 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ACW homespun dress
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I've been browsing your website and have found all the details fascinating. 
I especially like the fabric details. Good job!
As for fastenings, perhaps straight pins?  That's how I close my wrapper 
dress at Sutter's Fort (about 20 years earlier in style).  With a brooch at 
the neck, with the bodice linings fastened with pins, and an apron on, the 
dress would be comfortably, and securely, closed.
Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA

At 03:34 PM 1/21/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>Just before Christmas I was lucky enough to purchase a homespun dress from
>the period of the American Civil War from North Carolina.  I have created a
>webpage with photographs, information, a couple of bodice sketches, a
>possible fabric layout, comparisons with other fabrics, a sketch of a
>possible pocket, rough estimate of how much weaving thread was required,
>and rough estimate of how long to produce from pulling seeds from cotton to
>finished dress.  If you see any typographical errors or (horrors!) math
>mistakes, please let me know.  I've tried to cover all of the bases, but
>except for getting dyes chemically analyzed, which would be expensive and
>destructive, I can't think of anything else.  There's lots of thumbnails,
>so the page may be a little slow to load.
>
>http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/furr_homespun_dress.htm
>
>If you would like additional information on homespun in the South during
>the American Civil War, I have a few things posted at:
>http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/homespun_intro.htm
>
>Vicki Betts
>vbetts@gower.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Forged Memling
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:05:57 -0500
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Hmm, I wonder what part of the body a 'forged Memling' would armour? :-)

Here are some examples of Memlings works:

http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/1early1/01prese1.jpg
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/1early3/02last41.jpg
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/2middle3/13nodo2.jpg

 His paintings are used very frequently as documentation/inspiration for
medieval costumers, they are a wonderful visual resource.

I find it interesting that there is an actual display of forged art, the
people who spent so much time faking other peoples works were obviously
amazing artists in themselves, it would make for a very fascinating show.

Sheridan



Subject: Re: [h-cost] Forged Memling


> At first when I saw this subject line, I thought "Oh, another one of those
spams with a nonsense phrase as the subject."
> Then I saw the [h-cost] and thought "Oh no, ANOTHER piece of armor I've
never heard of! How deep is my ignorance?!?!?!?" I expected a discussion of
CSA armorers, working at the forge, producing period memlings...
> What a relief that it's about a forged Memling! I had not heard of Memling
before, so my ignorance is still admittedly deep, but I'm learning all the
time! (I do find art forgery and literary forgery fascinating topics.)
> Thanks--
> Ruth Anne Baumgartner
> scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane & Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
> Sent: Jan 21, 2005 2:00 PM
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] Forged Memling
>
> Just found this, thought folks here would be interested:
>
>
>
http://sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/01/20/Arts/flemishfake0
> 50120.html
>
> Sheridan


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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Shane & Sheridan wrote:

> I find it interesting that there is an actual display of forged art,
> the people who spent so much time faking other peoples works were
> obviously amazing artists in themselves, it would make for a very
> fascinating show.

The exhibit is at the Groeninge Museum, one of the most wonderful places
on the face of the earth :-) and runs through most of February. It's
called "Fake/Not Fake" and focuses on Flemish primitives -- e.g. Memling
and van der Weyden and their colleagues. It considers not only outright
fakes, but also the issue of "heavy restoration" -- at what point does a
restored/repainted work become a new work, and can no longer be considered
the original artist's work?

I would very much like to see this exhibit, but I'm nowhere near Bruges. I
can't find any reference to a catalog, but if anyone does know whether
there's a published catalog available for this exhibit, please let me
know. I haven't been able to find an e-mail contact for the Groeninge yet.

--Robin

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Shane & Sheridan wrote:
> I find it interesting that there is an actual display of forged art, the
> people who spent so much time faking other peoples works were obviously
> amazing artists in themselves, it would make for a very fascinating show.

Museums do them moderately often; I recall one at the Boston MFA some 
years back.  The exhibition had postcards, too, of the real art.  Except 
one of the cards had the image of a fake and the text of the real one!

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Well, there was a black pit of despair there for a while, but I managed 
to climb out of that into a grey vale of sorrow.   -- Rufinia
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:56:33 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ACW homespun dress
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>There's lots of thumbnails,
>so the page may be a little slow to load.
>
>http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/furr_homespun_dress.htm

I wish I'd had this before I made my Dickens' Faire housedress.  Except for 
the homespun fabric, this is just what I wanted mine to look like.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Forged Memling
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I wonder whose work he destroyed to create his fake.

De



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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And here I read it as being lined with a coarse type of tobacco... 8-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
> Uh...no.  They are merely lined with shag, not made of it. <G>
> Joan> 
> At 12:47 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> > >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Joan Jurancich"
> > There is even a reference on page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned with shagge."
> >
> >Hmmm, so what you are saying is that big furry,fluffy slippers 
> are period?;-)
> >Sheridan  -who now has images of lovely Elizabethan gowns with pink bunny slippers going through my head....

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otsisto wrote:

> I wonder whose work he destroyed to create his fake.

It's possible they'll be able to get some outlines with the tech they 
have these days.  But it couldn't have been really wonderful, or else he 
wouldn't have been able to afford it for raw materials.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Well, there was a black pit of despair there for a while, but I managed 
to climb out of that into a grey vale of sorrow.   -- Rufinia
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Subject: [h-cost] Forged Memling
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giggle, snort.  Me too.  GUess that's what happens when you live with a
blacksmith.
Julie

>Then I saw the [h-cost] and thought "Oh no, ANOTHER piece of armor
>I've never heard of! How deep is my ignorance?!?!?!?" I expected a
>discussion of CSA armorers, working at the forge, producing period
>memlings...
>

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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:20:19 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] lining & bag lining
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At 2:14 PM -0700 1/20/05, <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com> wrote:
>Hi, does anyone know when lining garments came into widespread practice?
>All the pictures I've seen of the Greenland garments and in _Textiles
>and Clothing: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, c.1150-c.1450_
>are unlined. Yet nearly everything in Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion: The
>Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women C1560-1620_ is lined
>to some extent. I remember from Robin's lecture that lining the gothic
>fitted dress is very important to the structure of the garment -- do we
>have any archeological evidence that the gothic fitted dresses _were_
>lined? I know that there are a couple textural references to lining (I
>don't know how extensive these references are -- I can think of one
>off-hand from _A Medieval Book of Seasons_), and I'm sure I can find
>art-references with pictures showing the interior of the garment a
>different color then the exterior but that could easily be done for
>art-composition reasons rather then as a depiction of reality... so,
>does anyone know when lining came into use? (It's always possible that
>my understanding of the Greenland garments is incomplete -- I haven't
>gotten _Woven into the Earth: Textiles from Norse Greenland" yet.)

One of the difficulties in interpreting the evidence is that if, as 
would seem logical, lining have generally been of linen or other 
vegetable fibers, then the usual European preservation conditions 
would typically fail to preserve such a lining even when an outer 
woolen garment is preserved.

When garments have been preserved in non-archaeological contexts 
(e.g. the poirpoint of Charles of Blois or the "golden gown" of Queen 
Margaret -- both of the 14th century) then linen linings can be 
preserved, but this type of preservation is less common the earlier 
you get.

The earliest example I know of evidence for a lined garment is the 
fragmentary 10th c. Llangors textile which, though entirely 
carbonized, can be identified as a linen outer fabric lined with 
linen cut in the same fashion as the outer layer.

I believe I've run into descriptions of layers in grave finds from 
significantly earlier that have been interpreted as lined garments 
(e.g., Merovingian era), but when you're dealing with that sort of 
fragmentary evidence, then the conclusions are in danger of being 
skewed by what the researcher expects to find.

So, at the very least we have a 10th c. example of a lined garment, 
placing the Gothic fitted gown well within the range of known 
examples.

Heather
-- 
****
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@earthlink.net
****
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From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Measures
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Unless (in the U.S.) you're following the directions on a package of coffee 
or tea (brewed or instant)  --  then a "cup" is 6 oz.  Considering most 
people I know drink these beverages from mugs that contain at least twice 
that, trying to translate "cups" into actual "servings" is REALLY 
interesting.  :>}

Sandy

At 11:57 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:18:25 +0000
>From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
>
> > Teddy, obviously you have to move to the States, where we still
>measure fabric in yards, and recipes use pounds and pints.
>
>Hmmm.. might be a bit of a  long commute to work from there.... not to
>mention swapping all the things I don't liek about England, for all the
>things I wouldn't like about America.
>
> > But I believe our cups
> > and spoons vary slighly from yours -- in fact, an English friend kindly
> > sent me a set of British measuring cups and spoons to go with an old
> > British recipe book. I should check and see if they're actually different.
>
>They are different - a friend was recently sent a set of American ones
>so she could follow American recipes without the need for complicated
>conversions/
>
>Teddy



>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:49:30 +0000
>From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
>
>Yes, our recipes expect you to weigh dry ingredients. Modern ones give
>both metric and imperial units (and warn you not to mix them). I have an
>American recipe booklet from the Quaker Oats company, reissued in the UK
>with the explanation that a "cup" is 8 fl. oz. and giving the weight of
>a cup of butter. I use a pint measuring jug which has fl. oz. markings.
>
>Kate Bunting (who learned science in metric but still thinks in
>imperial.)

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:39:02 -0600
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A standard (U.S.) measuring cup = 8oz. = 250 ml.
present standard coffee mugs range from 9oz. up. old coffee cups held 8oz.
to the brim.

De

-----Original Message-----
Unless (in the U.S.) you're following the directions on a package of coffee
or tea (brewed or instant)  --  then a "cup" is 6 oz.  Considering most
people I know drink these beverages from mugs that contain at least twice
that, trying to translate "cups" into actual "servings" is REALLY
interesting.  :>}

Sandy



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From: Bonnie Booker <aspasia1@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
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> Also my problem is that 99% of published patterns don't fit my extra long ladie's sz 11 body.

There are lines on patterns to lengthen and/or shorten to fit your
figure.  Just have a friend help you measure.
> 
> I am offering $$ for a person to make me a "sloper"?? - a fabric version of my body - so I can use it as a base for my garb.
> 
I use a duct tape double.  The directions are now on-line, I forget
where, just google it.  You get an old t-shirt and have a friend duct
tape it to your body.  Do several layers.  This can be cut off and
taped back together for different designs, from cotehardies to
Elizabethan.  Just cut the lines different, then tape it back
together.

-- 
Aspasia Moonwind
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Subject: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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To all of this List who expressed an interest.........
Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60" wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.
I also spoke to Mr Hamon of your interest, - and of the diffculty some of you wrote that you have found in obtaining such linen in the USA, - and if any of you want to order Bishops' Lawn Linen [or any other fabrics] by Mail, he'll be happy to supply you.
 
I have no way of knowing if you'll think this price/yd expensive.  To save you looking up a currency converter, at today's Exchange Rate that worked out to US$36.25. 
To give you some idea of local wages, a time-served Craftsman - say a Carpenter and Joiner - over here earns US$895 for a 42hr-long working week. The average Craftsmens' annual wage is said to be around £24,000 [An Imperial gallon of Diesel Fuel costs US$3.68.


Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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From: Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, julian wilson wrote:

> Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60"
> wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.

Per yard, or for the entire 10 yards?

--Robin


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From: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] visualising 3 dimensions
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Susan Farmer wrote:

 > Oh, yeah -- the husband does it ... in spades.  I cannot.  He used to 
love
 > drafting class where they give 3 sides of a 3-D object, and you have to
 > draw the other sides.  :-P


How about taking the three 3-D views and then draw a 3/4 view of the
object...Loved the challenged.  But then I have the detailed oriented
mindset to modify a pattern to size or measurement.

...Or the skill to understand the instruction in a patter.  There has
been (and probable will be) times when e I would visualize the
instruction because it is not readily apparent how the two pattern
pieces  are meant to be sewn based on what the instruction says.

Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now: draping was: lots of subjects
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Bonnie Booker wrote:


> I use a duct tape double.  The directions are now on-line, I forget
> where, just google it.  You get an old t-shirt and have a friend duct
> tape it to your body.  Do several layers.  This can be cut off and
> taped back together for different designs, from cotehardies to
> Elizabethan.  Just cut the lines different, then tape it back
> together.


Also if you or a friend have a "Threads" subscription.  "Threads" 
usually carry an article to modify a pattern for effect or pattern 
problems.  And since they are almost exclusively for women you can have 
direction on how to modify a sloper for specific effect.

Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak


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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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For the entire 10yds, Robin..

Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, julian wilson wrote:

> Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60"
> wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.

Per yard, or for the entire 10 yards?

--Robin


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Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey
		
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, julian wilson wrote:

> For the entire 10yds, Robin..

Yow! That's a remarkably good price.

julian wilson wrote:
> 
> > Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60"
> > wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.

--Robin


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>...Or the skill to understand the instruction in a patter.  There has
>been (and probable will be) times when e I would visualize the
>instruction because it is not readily apparent how the two pattern
>pieces  are meant to be sewn based on what the instruction says.

I'm a complete and total washout when it comes to following printed 
instructions.  If those guide sheets didn't have pictures I'd be lost.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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Eyes pop out and roll across floor....
Eyes roll back and pop back in place.....

$3.63 USD per yard????!!!!!!! Even including Import/ Export fees - that is CHEAP!!

The cheapest mid weight linen (which is the finest I can get locally) is $5-6 per yard.... and that is usualy pre-embroidered with flowers or some such.... And the local fabric shop only sells it in 45" width.

As for diesel - in north eastern "New" Jersey it is up to $1.90 USD per American Gallon.

Katheryne
who wonders if she can get someone to go in with, to only get 4 yds of this wonderful stuff,,,  hhmmm make that 5 - I need sleeves also...... LOL!

----- Original Message -----
From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
> To all of this List who expressed an interest.........
> Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60" wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.
> I have no way of knowing if you'll think this price/yd expensive. To save you looking up a currency converter, at today's Exchange Rate that worked out to US$36.25. 
[An Imperial gallon of Diesel Fuel costs US$3.68.
> Yours in service, 
> Julian Wilson,
> [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"] late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards", in "olde" Jersey


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:04:36 +0000 (GMT)
> From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: [h-cost] 
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Message-ID: <20050122180436.64663.qmail@web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> To all of this List who expressed an interest.........
> Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60" wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.

Is that 20-25 pounds per yard, or for the whole 10 yards? I'm not
currently in the market for linen, but if it was only around USD$36
for 10 years, that is an EXCELLENT price!

> I also spoke to Mr Hamon of your interest, - and of the diffculty some of you wrote that you have found in obtaining such linen in the USA, - and if any of you want to order Bishops' Lawn Linen [or any other fabrics] by Mail, he'll be happy to supply you.
> 
> I have no way of knowing if you'll think this price/yd expensive.  To save you looking up a currency converter, at today's Exchange Rate that worked out to US$36.25.
> To give you some idea of local wages, a time-served Craftsman - say a Carpenter and Joiner - over here earns US$895 for a 42hr-long working week. The average Craftsmens' annual wage is said to be around £24,000 [An Imperial gallon of Diesel Fuel costs US$3.68.

We got you beat on gas - even with the "rising prices" the highest
I've seen here (DC area) lately is around USD$1.92/gallon or so.
> 
> Yours in service,
> Julian Wilson,
> [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
> late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
> "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
> in "olde" Jersey
> 
Allison T

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:04:36 +0000 (GMT)
> From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: [h-cost] 
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Message-ID: <20050122180436.64663.qmail@web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> To all of this List who expressed an interest.........
> Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60" wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.

Is that 20-25 pounds per yard, or for the whole 10 yards? I'm not
currently in the market for linen, but if it was only around USD$36
for 10 years, that is an EXCELLENT price!

> I also spoke to Mr Hamon of your interest, - and of the diffculty some of you wrote that you have found in obtaining such linen in the USA, - and if any of you want to order Bishops' Lawn Linen [or any other fabrics] by Mail, he'll be happy to supply you.
> 
> I have no way of knowing if you'll think this price/yd expensive.  To save you looking up a currency converter, at today's Exchange Rate that worked out to US$36.25.
> To give you some idea of local wages, a time-served Craftsman - say a Carpenter and Joiner - over here earns US$895 for a 42hr-long working week. The average Craftsmens' annual wage is said to be around £24,000 [An Imperial gallon of Diesel Fuel costs US$3.68.

We got you beat on gas - even with the "rising prices" the highest
I've seen here (DC area) lately is around USD$1.92/gallon or so.
> 
> Yours in service,
> Julian Wilson,
> [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
> late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
> "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
> in "olde" Jersey
> 
Allison T

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Jan 22 17:42:28 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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That would be cheaper than getting it from the states for me as they will
not ship it by mail.  I paid $100 for 10 yds. of med. linen that looks more
like cheesecloth than linen and the threads broke when I washed it.  With
shipping and duty for 10 yds. of bishop's linen would only cost me about
$65.00.  Now I just need to turn this other junk into something someone
would buy so I can order this fine linen from Hamons.

Thanks

Brin Kendall

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:04 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price


To all of this List who expressed an interest.........
Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60" wide,
and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.
I also spoke to Mr Hamon of your interest, - and of the diffculty some of
you wrote that you have found in obtaining such linen in the USA, - and if
any of you want to order Bishops' Lawn Linen [or any other fabrics] by Mail,
he'll be happy to supply you.

I have no way of knowing if you'll think this price/yd expensive.  To save
you looking up a currency converter, at today's Exchange Rate that worked
out to US$36.25.
To give you some idea of local wages, a time-served Craftsman - say a
Carpenter and Joiner - over here earns US$895 for a 42hr-long working week.
The average Craftsmens' annual wage is said to be around £24,000 [An
Imperial gallon of Diesel Fuel costs US$3.68.


Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey

---------------------------------
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:22:16 -0600
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You can get really nice 100% linen in the Los Angeles garment district for
anywhere between a dollar and three dollars per yard, 60" goods. All colors,
all weights. 100% wool, 72" goods is anywhere between four to six dollars
per yard, all colors and weights.

Talia



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Jan 22 18:29:37 2005
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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Dude!  Sign me up!  Just kidding, I will contact them myself!

julian wilson wrote:

>For the entire 10yds, Robin..
>
>Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, julian wilson wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Ladies, I've just been to Hamon's Ltd of St Helier to buy 10yds at 60"
>>wide, and that cost me £20-25; - which includes a 10% discount.
>>    
>>
>
>Per yard, or for the entire 10 yards?
>
>--Robin
>
>
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>Yours in service, 
>Julian Wilson,
>[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
>late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
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>in "olde" Jersey
>		
>---------------------------------
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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Which places are you going to?  I have been there and have not seen 
anything any better than what I get from fabric-store.
Thanks!


Sg 

khanson wrote:

>You can get really nice 100% linen in the Los Angeles garment district for
>anywhere between a dollar and three dollars per yard, 60" goods. All colors,
>all weights. 100% wool, 72" goods is anywhere between four to six dollars
>per yard, all colors and weights.
>
>Talia
>
>
>
>
>  
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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Julian wrote:
> For the entire 10yds, Robin.

Wow.  Even with shipping and any applicable taxes, that's a bargain.
                       -Helen/Aidan

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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YOWSA. Thank you so much for passing this on, Julian. I have a feeling that 
there's going to be a run on it, soon...

-E House

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
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Okay, I'll be really, really nice and give you my Sooper Seekret Shopping
Stash Store... :)

There is a store on E. 9th street called Tex-Carmel (think the street number
is 432). Go in there and ask for Morrie or Carmela. They're the owners, and
they have always treated us fairly. Tell them you are looking for linen.
Usually they've got a huge stock directly when you come in the front door,
and they have a whole back room with linen stuffed into it too. They usually
start quoting you a price of about $3/yard, but if you are serious about
buying a large amount (more than 100 yards) you can tease them down on
pricing. Carmela will generally go a tiny bit lower than Morrie, perhaps
.25/yard less, but not always. Get them on a really slow day, like a Tuesday
or a holiday, and you can score some great deals. Key word here is bargain
at least a little bit!

They also carry lovely wool from time to time, and will give you a fair deal
on it as well. They occasionally have silk, and they almost always have silk
velvet too.

Talia (expatriate Californian living in chilly Kansas City)


-----Original Message-----
Which places are you going to?  I have been there and have not seen
anything any better than what I get from fabric-store.
Thanks!


Sg


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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:38:32 -0600
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Does anyone have any idea about what the shipping and taxes might be? The 
last thing I shipped to the UK weighed about 2 lbs, and cost about USD $35, 
not counting customs on the other end.  Granted, there were one or two other 
factors at play, but that's still enough to make me nervous!  On the other 
hand, I just received several pounds of fabric from Russia, for only USD $15 
in shipping...

-E House 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Kathy <kathysmassmail@verizon.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Fake Fur cleaned!
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Hello Everyone!

I just wanted to thank you all a thousand times over.  I felt carefully on 
the coat and felt no structures that would be messed up by washing, so I 
held my breath, and put it in my front-loader on delicate and cold water. 
Pulled it out and 30 minutes on air dry in the dryer later and it's 
GREAT!  It worked beautifully. Thanks for all the help!
            --Kathy K.

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From: purplkat@optonline.net
Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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quick question - do you mean in NYC? or LA fabric district??

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: khanson <khanson@kc.rr.com>> 
> There is a store on E. 9th street called Tex-Carmel (think the street number
> is 432). Go in there and ask for Morrie or Carmela. They're the owners, and
> they have always treated us fairly. Tell them you are looking for linen.Usually they've got a huge stock directly when you come in the front door,and they have a whole back room with linen stuffed into it too. 
> Talia (expatriate Californian living in chilly Kansas City)

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From: Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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Heck, at this price I would be more than willing to go
in on purchasing a bolt of the stuff and split it up.
Anyone in Ontario interested?

Kathy

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Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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Dunno....last thing I got from t'other side of the pond was a rather 
large box of books.  I know there was significant postage/shipping, but 
I'd expected it because of the weight.  I wasn't outraged by it or 
anything though, so it probably wasn't horrendous.
Of course, maybe fees and such are different for books? Or stuff coming 
from countries other than England? (books came from Ireland)...
--sue, wondering how she's going to squeeze linen money out of her 
post-holidays budget....;-D

E House wrote:

> Does anyone have any idea about what the shipping and taxes might be? 
> The last thing I shipped to the UK weighed about 2 lbs, and cost about 
> USD $35, not counting customs on the other end.  Granted, there were one 
> or two other factors at play, but that's still enough to make me 
> nervous!  On the other hand, I just received several pounds of fabric 
> from Russia, for only USD $15 in shipping...


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Cool! Glad to hear it. I just ordered a spiffy fake-fur lined coat which 
should get here on Monday... =}

-E House

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathy" <kathysmassmail@verizon.net>
<snip>
> Pulled it out and 30 minutes on air dry in the dryer later and it's GREAT! 
> It worked beautifully. Thanks for all the help!
>            --Kathy K.

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Subject: RE: RE: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:43:24 -0600
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Los Angeles garment district.

T.

-----Original Message-----

quick question - do you mean in NYC? or LA fabric district??

Katheryne


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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If you are not in a hurry surface mail is cheap from England.  Check out the
UK mail service

http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/content1?catId=400037&mediaId=400393

Brin Kendall


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed


Dunno....last thing I got from t'other side of the pond was a rather
large box of books.  I know there was significant postage/shipping, but
I'd expected it because of the weight.  I wasn't outraged by it or
anything though, so it probably wasn't horrendous.
Of course, maybe fees and such are different for books? Or stuff coming
from countries other than England? (books came from Ireland)...
--sue, wondering how she's going to squeeze linen money out of her
post-holidays budget....;-D

E House wrote:

> Does anyone have any idea about what the shipping and taxes might be?
> The last thing I shipped to the UK weighed about 2 lbs, and cost about
> USD $35, not counting customs on the other end.  Granted, there were one
> or two other factors at play, but that's still enough to make me
> nervous!  On the other hand, I just received several pounds of fabric
> from Russia, for only USD $15 in shipping...


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Thanks very much for sharing.  Just one small thing: Seems likely to  me 
that, even if hand spun and hand woven, the ginning of the cotton would have  been 
by machine, not by hand.  I know this was the case with wool--there  were 
mills all over the place where you could take it to be carded instead of  doing 
it by hand.
 
Ann Wass
 
 
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Grid paper (was pattern review? (Going way OT here))
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> From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
> 
> > > I wish!  Try finding *anything* still gridded off in inches
> instead
> of
> > > centimetres in the UK and you'll have an exercise in futility!
> > > 
> > > Teddy
> > 
> > Teddy, do you have any shops around your area that carry role 
> > playing games?  I've seen blank "battle maps" for RPGs 
> > gridded in one inch squares -- it's the standard grid for 
> > Dungeons and Dragons.  The vinyl maps would be way too 
> > expensive to use as pattern layout grids, but at least one 
> > company makes the blank maps in coated paper.  You'd probably 
> > have to tape several sheets together, though.
> 
> Good tip, Leah - thanks!
> 
> I do actually have one of those cardboard mats gridded in inches (a
> lucky find, still in it's original wrapper, in a  ssecond hand shop
> some
> time ago - dating back to before the change-over to decimalisation
> was
> quite so far advanced)... gridded pattern paper, on the other hand
> is
> almost always in centimeres (as I discovered the first time I tried
> to
> get some to scale up a pattern from Janet Arnold)... stupid
> obsession
> with metric measurements this country has developed....<grumble,
> grumble>
> 
> Teddy
> 

Teddy,

Try this link:
<http://www.mathematicshelpcentral.com/graph_paper.htm>

This website has graph paper you can print in many different sizes,
and also a program you can download to create your own.

~Mary


=====
"Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked."
~ Jane Austen

"Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've forgotten this before."      ~ Steven Wright
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
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Oooo! Oooo! Pick me, pick me!

Sheridan
(Sudbury, ON)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathy Page" <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca>
To: "Historical Costume List" <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed


> Heck, at this price I would be more than willing to go
> in on purchasing a bolt of the stuff and split it up.
> Anyone in Ontario interested?
> 
> Kathy
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: Mary <hanstar88@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: pattern review?
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Rebecca, 

Sorry for the late reply, I'm rather behind on this list...

I recently bought several of the RH patterns for the early 17th
century.  I made the English Jacket for someone else and while the
pattern itself went together really well and came out looking very
nice, I did have a couple problems with the pattern.

First of all, I was making it for my daughter's teacher and only had
her measurements to go by.  According to the pattern instructions, I
made it in a size 20-22.  When it was finished, it was waaaay too
small -- the front opening had a 5-6" gap.  I even made the seam
allowances as small as possible.  And, yes, I should have made a
mock-up, but time and circumstances didn't allow.

My only other comment is that I found the instructions a bit terse
and lacking in visual aids.  That is just my *personal* experience
with the instructions, since I am a visual learner.  There were
several steps that took my a very long time to work out what they
meant.

All in all, I am very happy with the results and plan to make at
*least* one more for myself.  I just know now to make it several
sizes larger than the patterns calls for and to make one (or more)
muslins.

~Mary

P.S. I also made one of the caps (the Dutch cap? can't remember right
now) and it was rather small too.  But I have a big head!

> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:06:05 -0600
> From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
> Subject: [h-cost] pattern review?
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History
> pattern
> for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote).
> I want
> to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern
> (this seems
> to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The
> Great
> Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
>  
> Anybody?
>  
> 
> *******************************************************************
> 
> Rebecca Schmitt
> 
> aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
> 
> Bristol Renaissance Faire
> 
>  
> 
> My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash
> 
> *******************************************************************
> 
>  


=====
"Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked."
~ Jane Austen

"Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've forgotten this before."      ~ Steven Wright
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Since we have been discussing cleaning furs.  Are there any good tips to 
clean wool and canvas men's (fedora) hats?

Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak


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Re Imperial measurement units:

I recently was told a justification of why the Imperial system was used. 
  The number units in the Imperial system were chosen so that when 
making a 1/2, n/4, n/8, etc. of a whole (larger) unit, you would have 
whole number of the smaller unit.  Those 1/3 of a yard is 1 foot or 12 
inch. (costume content)

Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak


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Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:10:53 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)
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At 02:37 PM 1/23/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Re Imperial measurement units:
>
>I recently was told a justification of why the Imperial system was 
>used.  The number units in the Imperial system were chosen so that when 
>making a 1/2, n/4, n/8, etc. of a whole (larger) unit, you would have 
>whole number of the smaller unit.  Those 1/3 of a yard is 1 foot or 12 
>inch. (costume content)
>
>Your humble and obediant servant,
>David S Mallinak

Actually, the Imperial system grew over time.  It took quite a while before 
measurements were standardized among regions of England, let alone anywhere 
else.  And the "convenient" mathematical units argument is definitely ex 
post facto.  It sounds like an argument brought up after the metric system 
was proposed and started to become accepted outside of France.

When I use patterns from The Workwoman's Guide (published in England in 
1838), I use "nails", as well as quarter-yards.  One nail - 2-1/4 inches; 4 
nails = one-quarter yard, or nine inches.  The linen fabric widths were 
almost always given in nails, not yards or inches.  The Guide seldom 
includes inches or fractions of inches in describing seam allowances or 
turnbacks; the author used fractions of nails.


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:30:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
matchlck@erols.com writes:

Are  there any good tips to 
clean wool and canvas men's (fedora)  hats?




David--there are a couple of people here in the Washington area who clean  
and re-block men's wool hats.  I can dig out the info.  However, for  
do-it-yourself, I've had good luck sprinkling with cornmeal and then  brushing with a 
suede brush.
 
Ann Wass
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: "J.E. Marshall" <jemarshall@fuse.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: cleaning fake fur
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Status: RO

Freezing it will not kill the spores of ringworm.

Jennifer

At 01:45 PM 1/19/05 -0600, you wrote:

>Yes freezing it for about 24 hours should kill anything that is live,
>but not sure if it will get the spores and ringworm is a fungus that can
>be spread by spores.I suggest first get the fur cold then put in freezer
>to reduce the amout of condensation that may form on the fur. But still
>not sure if it will hurt the polyester back, think of all those hunters
>that have heads mounted the taxidermist tends to put the heads in the
>freezer until he has time to do them.  I wish you luck. theresa
>
> >>> kathysmassmail@verizon.net 1/19/2005 1:38:05 PM >>>
>
> > I just bought some fake fur to play with, and am about to machine
>wash it


what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?  Anon.


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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "julian wilson" <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:40:03 -0600 (CST)

> 
Robin wrote: 
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, julian wilson wrote:
> 
> > For the entire 10yds, Robin..
> 
> Yow! That's a remarkably good price.

Indeed!  I have a sudden urge to travel to Jersey and do some fabric shopping :)  

-Katie

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AnnBWass@aol.com wrote:
  >
> David--there are a couple of people here in the Washington area who clean  
> and re-block men's wool hats.  I can dig out the info.  However, for  
> do-it-yourself, I've had good luck sprinkling with cornmeal and then  brushing with a 
> suede brush.

What purpose does the cornmeal serve?




Dawn

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At 07:17 PM 1/23/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>AnnBWass@aol.com wrote:
>  >
>>David--there are a couple of people here in the Washington area who clean
>>and re-block men's wool hats.  I can dig out the info.  However, for
>>do-it-yourself, I've had good luck sprinkling with cornmeal and 
>>then  brushing with a suede brush.
>
>What purpose does the cornmeal serve?
>
>Dawn

It basically absorbs any oily substances and can then be brushed off.  It 
can also act as a very mild abrasive to help remove stuck-on stuff.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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On Thursday 20 January 2005 7:44 pm, Ann Catelli wrote:
> --- Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
> > And one of the warning signs for Lime Disease (the
> > bulls eye).
> > Kathleen
>
> Lyme disease actually, named after some towns in
> Connecticut (Old Lyme, Hadlyme, etc.)
>
> About 50% of cases get the bullseye rash.
>
> You must be cautious of ticks from most animals around
> here in Connecticut, as birds and mammals, not to
> mention the occasional grass stem, have the tiny deer
> ticks.

I think the tick that carries Lyme disease can be found all over the 
mid-Atlantic states; we have it in Pennsylvania as well.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 46
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:46:04 -0500
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On Friday 21 January 2005 1:21 pm, Kass McGann wrote:
[snip]
> The men's clothing is definitely better than the women's. 

I've found that's almost always true for Hollywood movies set in an era other 
than the present.  "Hollywood and History" says quite a bit that relates to 
that general topic.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Grid paper (was pattern review? (Going way OT
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> Try this link:
> <http://www.mathematicshelpcentral.com/graph_paper.htm>
> 
> This website has graph paper you can print in many different sizes,
> and also a program you can download to create your own.

Many thanks, Mary, I've bookmarked it for future reference!

Teddy
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Subject: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen - local price confirmed - To Kathy
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I'm not in Ontario... but is Central NY close enough?  Bridgette / Mari


>Heck, at this price I would be more than willing to go
>in on purchasing a bolt of the stuff and split it up.
>Anyone in Ontario interested?
>
>Kathy

Mari Stewart
Webmaster
College of Veterinary Medicine
Cornell University


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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleaning Hats
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And please remember to brush counter-clockwise with the nap of the hat
NEVER scrub or you'll scrub an abrasion spot into your hat.
LynnD


On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:45:51 -0800, Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net> wrote:
> At 07:17 PM 1/23/2005 -0600, you wrote:
> >AnnBWass@aol.com wrote:
> >  >
> >>David--there are a couple of people here in the Washington area who clean
> >>and re-block men's wool hats.  I can dig out the info.  However, for
> >>do-it-yourself, I've had good luck sprinkling with cornmeal and
> >>then  brushing with a suede brush.
> >
> >What purpose does the cornmeal serve?
> >
> >Dawn
> 
> It basically absorbs any oily substances and can then be brushed off.  It
> can also act as a very mild abrasive to help remove stuck-on stuff.
> 
> Joan Jurancich
> joanmj@surewest.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
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I've used rolled oats too. It absorbs some of the heavier dirt and oil.

Brin Kendall
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan Jurancich" <joanmj@surewest.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleaning Hats


At 07:17 PM 1/23/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>AnnBWass@aol.com wrote:
>  >
>>David--there are a couple of people here in the Washington area who clean
>>and re-block men's wool hats.  I can dig out the info.  However, for
>>do-it-yourself, I've had good luck sprinkling with cornmeal and 
>>then  brushing with a suede brush.
>
>What purpose does the cornmeal serve?
>
>Dawn

It basically absorbs any oily substances and can then be brushed off.  It 
can also act as a very mild abrasive to help remove stuck-on stuff.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Found this recently, and thought I should pass it along:

 http://www.variety.com/ac2005_article/VR1117916046?nav=look


Sheridan

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> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Teddy" <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
>
> A tip about the taxes - sometimes, people are willing to mark the parcel
> "gift" when they send it.... which gets you out of being stung for twice
> the cost of the contents by the time you've paid taxes on top of the
> shipping costs.
>
> It's always worth asking when you order the stuff.  Some people will,
> some people won't.

 My overseas customers (not that I've had many lately) get ticked because I
 refuse to mark things as 'gift'.  Maybe that's why I haven't had many
 lately... =}  Well, that or I've been spending all my time preparing my
 website etc for selling rather than actually selling, but it's funnier the
 other way.

 Julian posted about this fabric to the SCA-Garb Yahoo! group, and in that
 post he mentioned that:

> Jersey is 0% rated for VAT or any other kind of Sales Tax
> at the moment, so the only extras you would have to
> consider would be Shipping and and Customs Duties and
> State Import Taxes at your end.

which is very good to know!

 Actually--and I hope Julian doesn't mind--I'm going to repost his message
 here in my next post, since it's handy to have it all in one dose rather
 than having to save several posts to get all the pertinant info. And thank
 you again so much, Julian!  When I order, I'm going to tell them that you
 should start getting a commission on your sales.

 -E House, going to actually SELL some stuff this week so she can order vast
 amounts. Anyone need size 12 15thC ~middle-class clothing? =}  (OK, OK, 
I'll
 post to the appropriate list in a little while.)


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Subject: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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[Forwarded Message]
From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Jersey source - Bishops' Lawn Linen.


 Dear Ladies of the SCA-Garb List,
I have learned so much from kibitizting on your so-knowledgeable discussions
 about matters of fabric, cutting, sewing, patterns &c to do with XVth
 Century W; European clothing, that I'm minded to offer what I hope may be a
 very useful "TYVM" in return
The Ladies of another medieval garb List to which I subscribe, mentioned
 they have found difficulty in finding sources for Bishops' Lawn Linen at
 reasonable prices.
Well, quite by chance, I found myself using the stuff for handpainted
 medieval flags, and mentioned  the fact on that List. A number of those
 Listers wanted to know where I bought it, and how much foit cost me per
 yard.
So as a "thank you" for all the information I've garnerede for *your*
 discussions, and for the helpful answers to my few specific questions - for
 your List as well, here's my local source, and the price per yard.

 Bishops' Lawn Linen, [fine enought to read print through] 60" wide,
 uncoloured, has just cost me a total of £20.25 for a length of 10yds {I 
have
 two personal Battle Standards to paint before the end of May] - from

 Hamons' [Drapers] Ltd., "Victoria House", King Street, St. Helier, JE2 4WF,
 Jersey, C.I., U.K.. The Phone No. is area code 1534 - # 720331.

 The Price included a 10% discount - [which I did not expect to be offered -
 I am by no means a regular customer]. The Ladies of that other List seem to
 think that's a very good price for Bishops' lawn Linen. Jersey is 0% rated
 for VAT or any other kind of Sales Tax at the moment, so the only extras 
you
 would have to consider would be Shipping and and Customs Duties and State
 Import Taxes at your end.

 The shop is *very* old fashioned; tHamons' don't do credit card 
transactions
 even, - payment has to be either cheque or cash. And they don't have a
 computer, let alone a website. But if you want to order by means of phone
 and "snail Mail", Mr. Hamon will be delighted to meet your fabric needs by
 Mail Order. [ I asked him yesterday for the Ladies of the other List]

 Disclaimer - I have no connection with Hamons' Ltd save as a very 
satisfied,
 occasional customer. Besides which, there are very few taditional "olde
 Jersey" shops still run by old local Families* left in St. Helier, and I
 like to support those that remain. [NOTE * - The Hamon family appear to 
have
 come out of Normandy with The Conqueror, for their Arms are shown
 "aunciente" in the earliest *local* Roll that has survived in the States of
 Jersey Archives,  - the "Extente" of 1331.]



 Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
 Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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I suppose he would prefer payment in UK Moneyorders instead of foreign
checks or moneyorders as the banks charge a fortune to cash them.  I was
wondering if he would mind setting up a paypal account for foreign
purchases??

Brin Kendall

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:14 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.


[Forwarded Message]
From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Jersey source - Bishops' Lawn Linen.


 Dear Ladies of the SCA-Garb List,
I have learned so much from kibitizting on your so-knowledgeable discussions
 about matters of fabric, cutting, sewing, patterns &c to do with XVth
 Century W; European clothing, that I'm minded to offer what I hope may be a
 very useful "TYVM" in return
The Ladies of another medieval garb List to which I subscribe, mentioned
 they have found difficulty in finding sources for Bishops' Lawn Linen at
 reasonable prices.
Well, quite by chance, I found myself using the stuff for handpainted
 medieval flags, and mentioned  the fact on that List. A number of those
 Listers wanted to know where I bought it, and how much foit cost me per
 yard.
So as a "thank you" for all the information I've garnerede for *your*
 discussions, and for the helpful answers to my few specific questions - for
 your List as well, here's my local source, and the price per yard.

 Bishops' Lawn Linen, [fine enought to read print through] 60" wide,
 uncoloured, has just cost me a total of £20.25 for a length of 10yds {I
have
 two personal Battle Standards to paint before the end of May] - from

 Hamons' [Drapers] Ltd., "Victoria House", King Street, St. Helier, JE2 4WF,
 Jersey, C.I., U.K.. The Phone No. is area code 1534 - # 720331.

 The Price included a 10% discount - [which I did not expect to be offered -
 I am by no means a regular customer]. The Ladies of that other List seem to
 think that's a very good price for Bishops' lawn Linen. Jersey is 0% rated
 for VAT or any other kind of Sales Tax at the moment, so the only extras
you
 would have to consider would be Shipping and and Customs Duties and State
 Import Taxes at your end.

 The shop is *very* old fashioned; tHamons' don't do credit card
transactions
 even, - payment has to be either cheque or cash. And they don't have a
 computer, let alone a website. But if you want to order by means of phone
 and "snail Mail", Mr. Hamon will be delighted to meet your fabric needs by
 Mail Order. [ I asked him yesterday for the Ladies of the other List]

 Disclaimer - I have no connection with Hamons' Ltd save as a very
satisfied,
 occasional customer. Besides which, there are very few taditional "olde
 Jersey" shops still run by old local Families* left in St. Helier, and I
 like to support those that remain. [NOTE * - The Hamon family appear to
have
 come out of Normandy with The Conqueror, for their Arms are shown
 "aunciente" in the earliest *local* Roll that has survived in the States of
 Jersey Archives,  - the "Extente" of 1331.]



 Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
 Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey

_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Oh I completely forgot to thank you again for sharing I wish more people
would share their sources.  I have no problem with people not sending items
as gifts because if customs opens them to finds a bill or receipt you can
get in big trouble.  I just hate it when I get it cheaper than retail price
and they declare it for the retail price.  The for duty price is what you
paid for an item not what the seller thinks it's worth.  If I remember right
I did not pay any duty when I imported the linen from the states just a
whooping brokerage fee from UPS for $36.00 instead of $5.00 brokerage fee
for Canadian mail service.

Brin Kendall

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:14 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.


[Forwarded Message]
From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Jersey source - Bishops' Lawn Linen.


 Dear Ladies of the SCA-Garb List,
I have learned so much from kibitizting on your so-knowledgeable discussions
 about matters of fabric, cutting, sewing, patterns &c to do with XVth
 Century W; European clothing, that I'm minded to offer what I hope may be a
 very useful "TYVM" in return
The Ladies of another medieval garb List to which I subscribe, mentioned
 they have found difficulty in finding sources for Bishops' Lawn Linen at
 reasonable prices.
Well, quite by chance, I found myself using the stuff for handpainted
 medieval flags, and mentioned  the fact on that List. A number of those
 Listers wanted to know where I bought it, and how much foit cost me per
 yard.
So as a "thank you" for all the information I've garnerede for *your*
 discussions, and for the helpful answers to my few specific questions - for
 your List as well, here's my local source, and the price per yard.

 Bishops' Lawn Linen, [fine enought to read print through] 60" wide,
 uncoloured, has just cost me a total of £20.25 for a length of 10yds {I
have
 two personal Battle Standards to paint before the end of May] - from

 Hamons' [Drapers] Ltd., "Victoria House", King Street, St. Helier, JE2 4WF,
 Jersey, C.I., U.K.. The Phone No. is area code 1534 - # 720331.

 The Price included a 10% discount - [which I did not expect to be offered -
 I am by no means a regular customer]. The Ladies of that other List seem to
 think that's a very good price for Bishops' lawn Linen. Jersey is 0% rated
 for VAT or any other kind of Sales Tax at the moment, so the only extras
you
 would have to consider would be Shipping and and Customs Duties and State
 Import Taxes at your end.

 The shop is *very* old fashioned; tHamons' don't do credit card
transactions
 even, - payment has to be either cheque or cash. And they don't have a
 computer, let alone a website. But if you want to order by means of phone
 and "snail Mail", Mr. Hamon will be delighted to meet your fabric needs by
 Mail Order. [ I asked him yesterday for the Ladies of the other List]

 Disclaimer - I have no connection with Hamons' Ltd save as a very
satisfied,
 occasional customer. Besides which, there are very few taditional "olde
 Jersey" shops still run by old local Families* left in St. Helier, and I
 like to support those that remain. [NOTE * - The Hamon family appear to
have
 come out of Normandy with The Conqueror, for their Arms are shown
 "aunciente" in the earliest *local* Roll that has survived in the States of
 Jersey Archives,  - the "Extente" of 1331.]



 Yours in service,
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of
 Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
in "olde" Jersey

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From: purplkat@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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OR - this is a thought - someone close to the source could set up a pay pal acct and then take the cash to the store?

also, do US banks write out Cashiers Checks in UK funds??

Just checking so I can make his life easier when I send in an order..

Katheryne
(who tries to trim her posts)

----- Original Message -----
From: Edith Reardon <edieann@telus.net>
> I suppose he would prefer payment in UK Moneyorders instead of foreign
> checks or moneyorders as the banks charge a fortune to cash them.  
> I was wondering if he would mind setting up a paypal account for foreign
> purchases??
> Brin Kendall

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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At 18:35 24/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>OR - this is a thought - someone close to the source could set up a pay 
>pal acct and then take the cash to the store?
>
>also, do US banks write out Cashiers Checks in UK funds??
>
>Just checking so I can make his life easier when I send in an order..
>
>Katheryne
>(who tries to trim her posts)


I occasionally used to do work for people in the U.S. and always insisted 
on Banker's Drafts in Sterling. Banks are unhappy about doing it, some 
don't even know how (really??), but it meant that I didn't have to pay the 
iniquitous amount that the banks charge for changing money. However, it 
does mean that the purchaser pays for it.

Suzi


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From: "Edith Reardon" <edieann@telus.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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I know I can get UK Moneyorders or Cashier Checks from the banks in Canada.
The post office is suppose to offer them here but they don't seem to have
them.

Brin Kendall

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <purplkat@optonline.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.


OR - this is a thought - someone close to the source could set up a pay pal
acct and then take the cash to the store?

also, do US banks write out Cashiers Checks in UK funds??

Just checking so I can make his life easier when I send in an order..

Katheryne
(who tries to trim her posts)

----- Original Message -----
From: Edith Reardon <edieann@telus.net>
> I suppose he would prefer payment in UK Moneyorders instead of foreign
> checks or moneyorders as the banks charge a fortune to cash them.
> I was wondering if he would mind setting up a paypal account for foreign
> purchases??
> Brin Kendall

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I couldn't read it....all that opening stuff about St. Mel's "The Passion". I 
thought it about as accurate as "The Ten Commandments"....no matter who you 
were...Senator, soldier, peasant, Pharisee, you were wearing layers and layers 
and layers of nubby fabric. Yuk!
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:33:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Suzi Clarke wrote:

> I occasionally used to do work for people in the U.S. and always
> insisted on Banker's Drafts in Sterling. Banks are unhappy about doing
> it, some don't even know how (really??), but it meant that I didn't
> have to pay the iniquitous amount that the banks charge for changing
> money. However, it does mean that the purchaser pays for it.

When I was living near Washington, D.C., I got all my international
cheques from Reusch International Monetary Services, at 14th and I
Streets. I'd usually phone in advance to order the check, then pick it up
at the window. Cost just a few dollars -- a huge savings over the
double-digit fees my bank would have charged. Even after I moved away, I
found it was cheaper to call Reusch, ask them to cut a check for me, and
then mail the payment and get the check via mail. Been a while since I've
needed one, so I can't vouch this information is current.

--Robin

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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:46:16 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted
  petticoat
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You know, I just realized I might be able to get a reasonable substitute (I 
really want the real thing but for this project I am willing to with a 
close approximation).  When I was in England I was able to get some 
Burberry wool that had been made shiny - not as shiny as those lovely 
quilts but a lot shinier than wool normally is.  The only trouble was the 
only available colour was black (which I haven't seen used to line 
petticoats in the few examples I've seen).  Hmmm, I'm going to see if I can 
chase down some other Burberry wools - if anyone finds something similar 
please let us know!

Cheers,
Danielle

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From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: Bishops' Lawn Linen -shipping ad stuff.
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Getting a check in foreign currency (in the US) depends on the financial 
institution.  I *can't* get them at my Credit Union, nor can I get them 
at the smaller branches of the bank that our local SCA group uses.  I 
*can*, however, get them at the *main* branch of our SCA bank, which, 
coincidentally (or perhaps not), is where I also had to go to order 
foreign currency in cash (euros and pounds) when I went to England and 
Ireland a few years ago.  I'm assuming, here, that because I could 
purchase a check in Canadian funds there, I could also do something 
similar for other countries....
And no, I don't think it was cheap, but it can be done.
--sue

Suzi Clarke wrote:

> At 18:35 24/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> OR - this is a thought - someone close to the source could set up a 
>> pay pal acct and then take the cash to the store?
>>
>> also, do US banks write out Cashiers Checks in UK funds??
>>
>> Just checking so I can make his life easier when I send in an order..
>>
>> Katheryne
>> (who tries to trim her posts)
> 
> 
> 
> I occasionally used to do work for people in the U.S. and always 
> insisted on Banker's Drafts in Sterling. Banks are unhappy about doing 
> it, some don't even know how (really??), but it meant that I didn't have 
> to pay the iniquitous amount that the banks charge for changing money. 
> However, it does mean that the purchaser pays for it.
> 
> Suzi


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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:55:38 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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At 06:06 PM 1/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History pattern
>for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and Petticote). I want
>to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying a pattern (this seems
>to be the only one out there) or drafting up from Janet Arnold. The Great
>Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
>
>Anybody?
>
>
>*******************************************************************
>
>Rebecca Schmitt

I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.  Anyway, in the 
most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert 
section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never heard of 
before...just a moment I will see if I can find it. 
http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm

Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give you 
another option at least.

Cheers,
Danielle

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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:09:32 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Silk shag  was Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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HI Chris,

I think you are thinking of the Jane Lambarde mantle with the red silk shag 
border?
http://www.thedrapers.co.uk/History/2d_Rm1.html

Cheers,
Danielle

At 07:10 PM 1/19/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>At 12:55 AM +0000 1/20/05, roscelin wrote:
>>  I would like to thank everyone who helped me with the issue of fabric 
>> paint/ing.
>>  I think I know what I will be doing now.  And I plan on doing some research
>>that was mentioned.  Thanks again!
>>   Now, I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed or not.  Was fur 
>> ever dyed
>>in the Renaissance period?  For example, a white fur to green? Curious 
>>because
>>of an an outfit that someone wants done with possible green fake fur 
>>(couldn't
>>afford real fur at the time).
>
>I don't recall ever seeing fur dyed a non-natural color like green, but 
>there _is_ a period sort of "fake fur" that can be any color, namely silk 
>shag. It's fabric with a silk pile -- not sure how it's created, whether 
>it's woven in or added later like constructing a sewn rug.
>
>If I remember correctly, there's a surviving mantle lined with *pink* silk 
>shag somewhere, together with a portrait where the person being portrayed 
>is wearing the same mantle. The usual sieve-brain syndrome means I can't 
>remember where I saw it or what the date was, but I _think_ it was 
>Renaissance -- does anyone with a better mental cross-index know what 
>garment I'm talking about and where to find it?
>--
>____________________________________________________________
>
>O    Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>  -   Davis, California
>+     http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
>____________________________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: shag was Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Actually, the closest thing I've ever seen to the "period" shag was an 
Italian long-piled cotton velvet.  It was perfect but I was broke. <G>  You 
might try some of the high-end upholstery textiles - you might be able to 
find the stuff.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 07:01 AM 1/21/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>There are several references to night-gowns and loose gowns lined with 
>silk shag in QEWU (pg. 139 et seq.).  And figure 225 shows the inside of a 
>loose gown lined with grey silk shag (c. 1605-15).  There is even a 
>reference on page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one 
>paire lyned with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother 
>paire lyned with shagge."  The pink silk shag that has been referred to is 
>the lining of Jane Lambarde's crimson velvet mantle (decorated with silver 
>and gold bobbin lace with silver spangles!), c. 1600-28; there is a 
>portrait of Jane Lambarde wearing the mantle.  These are in QEWU on page 
>321, figures 414 and 415.
>I wouldn't recommend that inexpensive fake fur be used to get the look of 
>shag, though.  To get the right look you will probably need the high end stuff.
>Joan Jurancich
>Sacramento, CA

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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At 01:03 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Then you have us poor Canuks that are caught right in between both systems.
>
>Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say: 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
>Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16 kilometers.'
>Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
>
>Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric system in school, but at
>home everyone still used the US Imperial. For my sewing I switch back and
>forth depending on how accurate I need things to be. I buy my fabric by the
>meter, but measure myself and my own patterns in inches, unless I'm doing
>something really fiddly.
>
>Sheridan

ROFLOL!  Too true, and to make matters worse, some fabric stores (at least 
in Toronto) sell in meters and some in yards, with a couple that will sell 
it to you in either measurement.  I eventually got into the habit of 
figuring out what I needed in yards and bought that amount in whatever unit 
of measurement was available, the extra one would get with meters was never 
a problem. : )

Cheers,
Danielle

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: shag was Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Status: RO

You know that shag looks a lot like long haired goat..(mohair?)  You can 
buy large pelts of if fairly cheaply...but it is kind of a 
circumlocution....imitating "fake"
fur with hair...???

Sg

Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:

> Actually, the closest thing I've ever seen to the "period" shag was an 
> Italian long-piled cotton velvet.  It was perfect but I was broke. 
> <G>  You might try some of the high-end upholstery textiles - you 
> might be able to find the stuff.
>
> Cheers,
> Danielle
>
> At 07:01 AM 1/21/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> There are several references to night-gowns and loose gowns lined 
>> with silk shag in QEWU (pg. 139 et seq.).  And figure 225 shows the 
>> inside of a loose gown lined with grey silk shag (c. 1605-15).  There 
>> is even a reference on page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte 
>> Taffata, the one paire lyned with skarlet and in the soles with 
>> carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned with shagge."  The pink silk 
>> shag that has been referred to is the lining of Jane Lambarde's 
>> crimson velvet mantle (decorated with silver and gold bobbin lace 
>> with silver spangles!), c. 1600-28; there is a portrait of Jane 
>> Lambarde wearing the mantle.  These are in QEWU on page 321, figures 
>> 414 and 415.
>> I wouldn't recommend that inexpensive fake fur be used to get the 
>> look of shag, though.  To get the right look you will probably need 
>> the high end stuff.
>> Joan Jurancich
>> Sacramento, CA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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At 09:32 PM 1/24/2005 -0600, you wrote:

>ROFLOL!  Too true, and to make matters worse, some fabric stores (at least 
>in Toronto) sell in meters and some in yards, with a couple that will sell 
>it to you in either measurement.  I eventually got into the habit of 
>figuring out what I needed in yards and bought that amount in whatever 
>unit of measurement was available, the extra one would get with meters was 
>never a problem. : )
>
>Cheers,
>Danielle

Then, of course, you get Fabrics.com (Phoenix Textiles) using their 
"39-inch yard" (a meter in all but name <g>) for the first 12 yards of any 
order.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: [h-cost] Corset question
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Status: RO

HI all! I've been a lurker for a few months, but I've got a question 
about a Victorian corset I'm going to make. I'm using Past Patterns # 
213, the Late Victorian Corset and the pattern calls for lots of bone 
casings on the outside of the corset. I've made one that way of plain 
canvas, but for my next one I've got a neat pattern on the fabric that I 
don't want obscured. since the outer fabric is kind of lightweight I'd 
been planning to interline it anyway and I was thinking of doing 2 
layers of  a mid-weight cotton twill and just sandwich the boning 
between the 2 layers. the outer fabric will still be pieced but then 
I'll still see the design. I was thinking of doing a cotton sateen 
lining for the inside, but I'm not decided about that. Does this sound 
like a plausible plan, or an I out of my tiny mind? I'm really hoping I 
can make this work since the outer fabric was originally $18.00 a yard 
and I got it for a little less than 1/2 price, but I didn't get enough 
to do anything besides a corset.

Gwen

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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:01:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I'm a time = distance person, too; Boston is '2 hours'
away.
Perhaps it came from Canada with my
great-grandparents, but they certainly got rid of the
French fairly fast; I'm not sure what else may have
been retained.
& I try not to say, 'eh?'

My degrees are in chemistry, so I have a grasp of
fairly small things in metric.

But all my thinking is English units.

Ann in CT, USA
descendent of a master tailor of the city of Paris,
now living in the city of Quebec, who was also
referred to as a pourpointier, mid-seventeenth century

--- Shane & Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say:
> 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
> Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16
> kilometers.'
> Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
> 
> Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric
> system in school, but at
> home everyone still used the US Imperial.
> 
> Sheridan



		
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From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] pattern review?
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:36:30 -0600
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I took a look at this site as well, but it definitely states that it is only
inspired by the historical look and is not to be used for reproductions. I
want to use this as a jacket to top off a Flemish working-woman's outfit for
~1575, so I'm looking for the closest to period pattern. I am leaning toward
scaling up Janet Arnold right now. After looking at it more closely, it
doesn't look to terribly difficult...just time consuming.


*******************************************************************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
Bristol Renaissance Faire
 
My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash
*******************************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:56 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?

At 06:06 PM 1/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone here has used the Reconstructing History 
>pattern for a Jacobean Jacket (they call it English Jackets and 
>Petticote). I want to make a jacket like this and am debating on buying 
>a pattern (this seems to be the only one out there) or drafting up from 
>Janet Arnold. The Great Pattern Review did not include this pattern.
>
>Anybody?
>
>
>*******************************************************************
>
>Rebecca Schmitt

I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.  Anyway, in the
most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert
section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never heard of
before...just a moment I will see if I can find it. 
http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm

Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give you
another option at least.

Cheers,
Danielle

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Subject: [h-cost] Polished cotton
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Does anyone know a method of polishing cotton? A friend of mine needs  some 
of a certain color that she's never been able to find. I said I'd ask  here if 
anyone knew how to make it.
 
Thanks.
 
Kathleen Norvell
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Subject: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen .
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I've looked over previous emails and have found my answer.
Does BL linen come in colors like red and yellow?

De





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> The Guide seldom includes inches or fractions of inches in
describing...

What a shame....<g>  I would have been nice to have seen fractions of
inches used with the names for cuch measurement units (for example, 3
barlycorns = one inch) 

Teddy
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review?
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> I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.   Anyway, in
the 
> most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert 
> section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never
heard of 
> before...just a moment I will see if I can find it. 
> http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm
> 
> Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give
you 
> another option at least.

Pretty, but looks like a modern cut was used - princess seams.

Teddy



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Teddy wrote:
> 
>>I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.   Anyway, in
> 
> the 
> 
>>most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert 
>>section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never
> 
> heard of 
> 
>>before...just a moment I will see if I can find it. 
>>http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm
>>
>>Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give
> 
> you 
> 
>>another option at least.
> 
> 
> Pretty, but looks like a modern cut was used - princess seams.
> 
> Teddy

Yeah, says "contempoary fit" on the site.
Would be a nice pattern for funky modern clothes, though.

liz young
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>
> Freezing it will not kill the spores of ringworm.

(Jerusha puts on her botanist hat and becomes Susan ...)

Herbarium specimens are routinely frozed when exchanged or before filing
to kill critters both mold, and bug eggs, etc.  However, we freeze in
-20C freezers which is significantly colder than your average deep 
freeze freezer.

BTW, the only cases that I've ever gotten of ringworm, I've picked
up from my cats.

Susan (Jerusha in the SCA)
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: dawn anderson designs
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Daniell wrote:

> 
> I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.  Anyway, in the
> most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert
> section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never heard of
> before...just a moment I will see if I can find it.
> http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm
> 
> Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give you
> another option at least.

Hm, those are interesting patterns. For those who haven't checked, there are
two on the site -- one for the jacket and the other for a "Rococo blouse."
Both are modern designs based on historical garments. The site says
specifically that they aren't for historic recreations.

I wondered what other people's impressions are. The garments made up and
shown in the pictures aren't very attractive. Is it that the pictures aren't
particularly good, or that the fabrics are too stiff, or that they are not
fitted enough? My first impression is that they have a modern wearing ease,
but the fabrics they're made up in are not drapey, so they look too big. I
think they might be attractive if made up in different fabrics, or if fitted
a bit more in those fabrics. The blouse, in particular, might be a good one
for people who want something "historically inspired" -- for working in a
gift shop at a museum, or selling things at a street fair -- but don't want
an actual historic recreation.

Just musing ...

Gail Finke

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted  petticoat
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:16:13 -0500
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I have been perusing Costume up Close (Baumgarten) again and the two
petticoats she describes are satin on the outside and worsted or glazed wool
lining. Would this make a difference for your project? If you used a shear
weight wool for the backing, how would this change the overall look...except
for duplicating the original?

Kathleen
Original Message ----- 
From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" <dannw@mn.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for glazed wool - 18th c. quilted petticoat


> You know, I just realized I might be able to get a reasonable substitute
(I
> really want the real thing but for this project I am willing to with a
> close approximation).  When I was in England I was able to get some
> Burberry wool that had been made shiny - not as shiny as those lovely
> quilts but a lot shinier than wool normally is.  The only trouble was the
> only available colour was black (which I haven't seen used to line
> petticoats in the few examples I've seen).  Hmmm, I'm going to see if I
can
> chase down some other Burberry wools - if anyone finds something similar
> please let us know!
>
> Cheers,
> Danielle
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BE1BC35B.146C7%gailscott@eos.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: dawn anderson designs
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:33:48 -0500
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The fit was what bothered me. The model is apparently longer waisted than
the garment allows, and the wings seem ready to fly. A modern look to be
sure. Compare this with the nice models in the latest "Piecework " that are
from the V&A, one can easily pick out the recreations
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gail & Scott Finke" <gailscott@eos.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: dawn anderson designs


>
> Daniell wrote:
>
> >
> > I haven't tried it but I do know Kass does good research.  Anyway, in
the
> > most recent issue of Threads (IIRC) there was an advert in the advert
> > section for a pattern for those jackets from a company I had never heard
of
> > before...just a moment I will see if I can find it.
> > http://www.dawnandersondesigns.com/patterns/501_Jacobean_Jacket.htm
> >
> > Can't say I know anyone who has tried either of them but it does give
you
> > another option at least.
>
> Hm, those are interesting patterns. For those who haven't checked, there
are
> two on the site -- one for the jacket and the other for a "Rococo blouse."
> Both are modern designs based on historical garments. The site says
> specifically that they aren't for historic recreations.
>
> I wondered what other people's impressions are. The garments made up and
> shown in the pictures aren't very attractive. Is it that the pictures
aren't
> particularly good, or that the fabrics are too stiff, or that they are not
> fitted enough? My first impression is that they have a modern wearing
ease,
> but the fabrics they're made up in are not drapey, so they look too big. I
> think they might be attractive if made up in different fabrics, or if
fitted
> a bit more in those fabrics. The blouse, in particular, might be a good
one
> for people who want something "historically inspired" -- for working in a
> gift shop at a museum, or selling things at a street fair -- but don't
want
> an actual historic recreation.
>
> Just musing ...
>
> Gail Finke
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> > I'll have to go look it up -- I know it was something about humors
--
> > but in my mind I have it filed under "Medieval health
recommendations:
> > If allergic to wool, line it with linen" and I _know_ it wasn't
phrased
> > that way in the book!

Sorry for taking so long to get back with the reference -- I keep
forgetting to bring the book to my e-mail account...

Robin, you're quite right, the reference was in _The Four Seasons of the
House of Cerruti_ (translated by Judith Spencer), not in _A Medieval
Book of Seasons_ (which only mentions wool in the context of when
shearing happens). Nor, in the translation is it a clear reference to
lining as my memory made it out to be. Here's the text from page 93 of
my copy:

"Woolen Clothes
"Vestis lanea

"Clothes are suited to praeparatio aeri, or the adaptation of the
climate to life, which is one of the seven things essential to good
health. Clothes made of wool, whose nature is warm and dry, are
beneficial in the winter to old people, life in northern regions, cold
constitutions, all things that, of the four elements, correspond to
water. These clothes, especially those in fine Flemish wool which are to
be preferred, draw the inner heat from the body and keep it warm. The
advantage of wool can also be a disadvantage: as too much warmth is
harmful, wear a thin linen garment under the wool."

_The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ also has short paragraphs on
both silk and linen clothes if anyone is interested in those.
	-sunny


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I grew up in very suburbia where distance was done in time not miles also.

It'll take you about 20 min to get there,, it's only 10 min down the road,, 1/2 hr to go full 'round the block,,,

Katheryne
who thought nothing of it till she went to college. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
> I'm a time = distance person, too; Boston is '2 hours' away.
> Perhaps it came from Canada with my great-grandparents, but they certainly got rid of the French fairly fast; I'm not sure what else may have been retained.
> & I try not to say, 'eh?'
> Ann in CT, USA

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: lining & bag lining
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 sunshine_buchler@agilent.com wrote:

> "Woolen Clothes
> "Vestis lanea
> 
> "Clothes are suited to praeparatio aeri, or the adaptation of the
> climate to life, which is one of the seven things essential to good
> health. Clothes made of wool, whose nature is warm and dry, are
> beneficial in the winter to old people, life in northern regions, cold
> constitutions, all things that, of the four elements, correspond to
> water. These clothes, especially those in fine Flemish wool which are
> to be preferred, draw the inner heat from the body and keep it warm.
> The advantage of wool can also be a disadvantage: as too much warmth
> is harmful, wear a thin linen garment under the wool."

It's worth noting that there are five surviving 14th c. copies (that I
know of) of this book, and the text varies slightly, having been
translated from Arabic into Italian at that time. Then, for the modern
publications, it has been translated into English. So the descriptions
differ, sometimes in crucial details. The original might have been "linen
layer" or just "linen under the wool" or any of a variety of things --
without checking the originals, I wouldn't know. I have several
translations of several of the passages from a different source, but don't
remember offhand whether I have more than one translation of Wool. I will
look it up if people care, but not today.

--Robin

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i manufacture inflatable crinoline dresses, and of course use the airtight 
material,s such as rubberised fabric,s pvc, rubber,etc, but i have heard of a 
special balloon fabric, which i have been told would be ideal for my work,and 
besides being airtight it is ultra light, 
can anyone help me on what this fabric may be.
thank,s pippa
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-----Original Message-----
I've looked over previous emails and have 'not' found my answer.
Does BL linen come in colors like red and yellow?

De





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can anyone help with a discription of the special untralight balloon material 
that is also airtight, as i am told it will be ideal for my inflatable 
crinoline dresses that i manufacture, i need a material discription or information 
please
pippa
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Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

> The fit was what bothered me. The model is apparently longer waisted than
> the garment allows, and the wings seem ready to fly.

I think the angle of the photos is part of the problem, the photographer 
seems to be quite a bit shorter than the model, as the shot is angled so 
you can see the underside of those wings. If it were re-photographed I 
think it would look considerably better.



Dawn



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From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bishops' Lawn Linen( oops).
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:-----Original Message-----
I've looked over previous emails and have 'not' found my answer.
Does BL linen come in colors like red and yellow?

De
 
Dear De,
every time I've bought it at Hamons, I've only been offered what I would call "white"; - but that hasn't bothered me; "white" is fine for my Character's medieval shirts, and for the flags which I colour with fabric paints anyway.
Whether it is obtainable  in colours ex-Mill, - is a question you'll have to ask Mr. Hamon direct - unless any other Lister come-up with an answer.




Yours in service, 
Julian Wilson,
[aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to  
"The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
[the only medieval living-history Group
in "olde" Jersey]
		
---------------------------------
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I'm really curious about your inflatable dresses.  What are they for?

On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:40 PM, KV59213@aol.com wrote:

> i manufacture inflatable crinoline dresses, and of course use the 
> airtight
> material,s such as rubberised fabric,s pvc, rubber,etc, but i have 
> heard of a
> special balloon fabric, which i have been told would be ideal for my 
> work,and
> besides being airtight it is ultra light,
> can anyone help me on what this fabric may be.
> thank,s pippa
> _______________________________________________
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  Oh, good.  I thought I was just stupid. <GGGGG>
The mental images... I keep picturing Scarlet floating away
from Tara.......

Liadain
very VERY curious

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Sent: Jan 25, 2005 3:43 PM
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] special materials

I'm really curious about your inflatable dresses.  What are they for?

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: dawn anderson designs
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On Tuesday 25 January 2005 9:35 am, Gail & Scott Finke wrote:
[snip]
> Hm, those are interesting patterns. For those who haven't checked, there
> are two on the site -- one for the jacket and the other for a "Rococo
> blouse." Both are modern designs based on historical garments. The site
> says specifically that they aren't for historic recreations.

>
> I wondered what other people's impressions are. The garments made up and
> shown in the pictures aren't very attractive. Is it that the pictures
> aren't particularly good, or that the fabrics are too stiff, or that they
> are not fitted enough?

I think you hit the nail on the head above.  The patterns attempt to mix 
modern features (wearing ease) with genuine 17thc ones (slightly raised 
waist, close fitting sleeves) and the result looks *wrong*.  It's not period, 
and it's too odd to be attractive as modern garments.  Neither fish nor flesh 
nor good salt herring.  I'd rather have a serious recreation effort, any day.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Ok did I miss something?  Did you get an explaination of what they were
for or just glad someone else questioned about the inflatable dresses?
and yes I am very curious  theresa

>>> hardcorps@earthlink.net 1/25/2005 5:19:08 PM >>>
  Oh, good.  I thought I was just stupid. <GGGGG>
The mental images... I keep picturing Scarlet floating away
from Tara.......

Liadain
very VERY curious

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Sent: Jan 25, 2005 3:43 PM
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] special materials

I'm really curious about your inflatable dresses.  What are they for?

http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies 
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Anyone researched the United States Continental Marines? My father will join a local group re-enacting the Marines part in the American Revolution. (My dad is USMC retired after 27 years. Reenacting the American Revolution is a perfect activity for him even though he is not from this country. He acts as if he won the Lottery!) 



Here is a page with some graphics

http://www.acidus.com/Continental_Marines.html 


I have two questions: 
First: What modern fabrics would be a good choice for this outfit (especially the coat)? I am finding differences of opinion even among USMC re enactors and historians. Some say broadcloth. Some say only wool imported from England. I SAW one in polyester--and he was proud of it (shutter!). I guess I am asking what would be a reasonable replication in today’s fabrics? 

 

Second: Does anyone know how rank or insignia were identified? This is the only suggestion I received:

“Rank wasn't as clear cut back then as it is now. Corporals wore a green epaulette on the shoulder, sergeants wore a red sash and red epaulettes. Officers also wore epaulettes - one white one for a Lieutenant, and Captains and above wore two. Officers could also be told apart by the fact that their uniforms were made of much finer cloth, and sometimes had extra embellishments such as embroidery etc, and they wore cocked hats rather than the round hats that the men wore. Officers also wore gorgets [sic.] and swords when they were on duty.”

 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you in advance for your time,

Heather Smart

Brea, California 

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> It's worth noting that there are five surviving 14th c. copies (that I
> know of) of this book, and the text varies slightly, having been
> translated from Arabic into Italian at that time. Then, for the modern
> publications, it has been translated into English. So the descriptions
> differ, sometimes in crucial details. The original might have been
"linen
> layer" or just "linen under the wool" or any of a variety of things --
> without checking the originals, I wouldn't know. I have several
> translations of several of the passages from a different source, but
don't
> remember offhand whether I have more than one translation of Wool. I
will
> look it up if people care, but not today.

If it doesn't take too long, I would definitely be interested! Thank
you! Also, is there a published reference to the increase in period
references to lined garments in the 14th century -- I'd love to be able
to site something when I write up my documentation for the outfit... :-)
	Thanks again,
		-sunny


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I am not an expert in late 18th century American clothing.  What do the 
experts on this list think of this book? Is it a decent starting point?

http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486273202.html


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies 
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:49:47 -0600
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I'll check with my brother and nephew.
My dad had info years ago on that that I only glanced through.
I will say that broadcloth bought at Wal-Mart for 1.89 a yd is not the same
as what was being called broadcloth back then.
http://members.tripod.com/~DARTO/usmchistory.html
This might help.
The jacket is usually wool, suit weight not coat weight. Sometime along the
line they acquired a leather collar which got them the nickname of leather
necks, long before being called jarheads.
Linen or cotton for the pants and vest.
For the first "official" uniform I would check with 1700s British troop
reinactors because US Marine's uniform were based on European military
uniforms.

De


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Subject: [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem
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Status: RO

   After years and years of embroidery I've run across a problem which has
me stumped.

    I'm working on a modern interpretation of an early
18th century frock coat for myself, and, of course, being the magpie I am
plan to embroider
it with the design from the wedding garments of the Dauphin in 1747.

    I'm working on a natural (cream) wool/silk twill. Gorgeous fabric. My
usual method of transferring designs to a non-reproduction piece is to use
dressmaker's carbon. Has worked famously for years. Even on white cloth.
Until now.

    For some reason the carbon is rubbing off on the fabric, I suspect
because of the very slight nap, so that I've ended up with a slight smudge.
This is not acceptable, as the carbon isn't going to readily wash out. I've
managed to gently brush out the smudge so that section of the coat (a
sleeve) isn't damaged. As you may appreciate I don't wish to continue to use
the carbon.

    Any of the transfer pencils and pens one can acquire commercially have
always performed dismally for me. Laser and ink-jet printed designs will not
transfer with the iron, again, I suspect because of the slight nap, although
this method has worked well for me on linen or cotton. Use a light board
isn't an option because the pieces are too large.

    The only alternative I can see is to prick the whole blessed design,
pounce and then ink the pattern. This is going to take hours and hours and
hours. If I have to I will.

    So, I wondered, if any of you had any ideas how to handle this dilemma?
Sometimes a fresh perspective can give a new window on a solution to a
problem.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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It's great for men's shirts!
 
Ann Wass
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In a message dated 1/26/2005 3:32:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
altablue@yahoo.com writes:

Some say  only wool imported from England.


Billiard cloth is the absolute best fabric to use, but it is pricey.   It 
DOES come in other colors besides green!
 
Ann Wass
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In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:53:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

what was  being called broadcloth back then


To expand--broadcloth was always wool broadcloth, and it was heavily  fulled, 
so men's wear could be cut with the raw edge used, rather than having to  
face it, as today.  Billiard cloth is similar.
 
Ann Wass
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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies 
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:58:34 -0600
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I'll check with my brother and nephew.
My dad had info years ago on that that I only glanced through.
I will say that broadcloth bought at Wal-Mart for 1.89 a yd is not the same
as what was being called broadcloth back then.
http://members.tripod.com/~DARTO/usmchistory.html
This might help.
The jacket is usually wool, suit weight not coat weight. Sometime along the
line they acquired a leather collar which got them the nickname of leather
necks, long before being called jarheads.
Linen or cotton for the pants and vest.
For the first "official" uniform I would check with 1700s British troop
reinactors because US Marine's uniform were based on European military
uniforms. Think the white hats were used when they started with being on the
ship as a way to I dentify them from the seamen. I could be wrong about this
one.
Could try: http://www.mclm.com/uniformproj.html

De


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Ok, how old does something have to be to qualify as 'historical'? :)

Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat 
Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was 
essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a 
really high topknot, but I can't find the silly things any more. I need 
one (or more) for a costume I am working on, but they seem to have 
vanished. Does anybody have any leads for this sort of thing? If you're 
going to tell me the beauty supply near you still sells them, email me 
privately because I may want you to go buy me some. I'm at a dead end here.


Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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> >  There is even a reference on
> > page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned
> > with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned
> > with shagge."
>
> Hmmm, so what you are saying is that big furry,fluffy slippers are period?
> ;-)
>
> Sheridan
> -who now has images of lovely Elizabethan gowns with pink bunny slippers
> going through my head....
>


They're LINED with the stuff... fur on the inside. Gosh, what an image you
brought up in my head...
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:30:54 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem
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How about using one of the tear-away tissues that you draw the pattern on, 
baste the tissue to the piece you are embroidering, and stitch the outline 
of your motifs onto the fabric, then tear-away the tissue and fill in the 
motifs?  Or if you have a linear pattern, do a guide line in running stitch 
that will be covered by the embroidery stitches.  Using a single strand of 
whatever color your pattern calls for should give you enough of a guide.
Joan Jurancich

At 04:52 PM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>    After years and years of embroidery I've run across a problem which has
>me stumped.
>
>     I'm working on a modern interpretation of an early
>18th century frock coat for myself, and, of course, being the magpie I am
>plan to embroider
>it with the design from the wedding garments of the Dauphin in 1747.
>
>     I'm working on a natural (cream) wool/silk twill. Gorgeous fabric. My
>usual method of transferring designs to a non-reproduction piece is to use
>dressmaker's carbon. Has worked famously for years. Even on white cloth.
>Until now.
>
>     For some reason the carbon is rubbing off on the fabric, I suspect
>because of the very slight nap, so that I've ended up with a slight smudge.
>This is not acceptable, as the carbon isn't going to readily wash out. I've
>managed to gently brush out the smudge so that section of the coat (a
>sleeve) isn't damaged. As you may appreciate I don't wish to continue to use
>the carbon.
>
>     Any of the transfer pencils and pens one can acquire commercially have
>always performed dismally for me. Laser and ink-jet printed designs will not
>transfer with the iron, again, I suspect because of the slight nap, although
>this method has worked well for me on linen or cotton. Use a light board
>isn't an option because the pieces are too large.
>
>     The only alternative I can see is to prick the whole blessed design,
>pounce and then ink the pattern. This is going to take hours and hours and
>hours. If I have to I will.
>
>     So, I wondered, if any of you had any ideas how to handle this dilemma?
>Sometimes a fresh perspective can give a new window on a solution to a
>problem.
>
>Regards
>Lorina
>Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
>quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
>(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org
>
>
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I just received an email from Fabric Mart.com that has a good sale on wool 
gabardine, several colors, all at $3.99 per yard.  I know how hard it is to 
find this stuff.
http://www.fabricmartfabrics.com/worsted_wool_gabardine.htm

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
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Correction, the comment about loincloths was in _Historic Colonial 
French Dress_  available from smoke-fire.com. I'm just brain-dead today. 
If you're interested in that period this is another how-to for 
re-enactors, again for men, women, and natives. The French book has a 
lot more diagrams and patterning instruction than the Rural America 
book, but they are both quite good.


Dawn
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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> Then you have us poor Canuks that are caught right in between both
systems.
>
> Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say: 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
> Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16 kilometers.'
> Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
>
> Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric system in school, but at
> home everyone still used the US Imperial. For my sewing I switch back and
> forth depending on how accurate I need things to be. I buy my fabric by
the
> meter, but measure myself and my own patterns in inches, unless I'm doing
> something really fiddly.
>
> Sheridan

I'm Canadian and do exactly what you do. The only thing I have trouble with
is measuring seam allowances in millimeters. I never could get used to that.
Otherwise, I switch back and forth, using the measurement that makes more
sense. If whatever I'm making divides better in inches (like the cushions
I'm making that were to be 18 by 20 inches), I'll use inches, and if it
divides better in cm, then I'll use cm. I learned to sew in inches, my mom's
machine was in inches, and when I read patterns in English (I don't like to
read translations - weird thing for a translator, isn't it?) they're in
inches most of the times -- but my new machine is in millimeters. I've been
using inches all my life, even if I school was all metric. For examples, my
weight and height mean nothing to me in metric, but I have no idea how
expensive gas is by the gallon. And gosh did we find that miles were LONG
when we went to the U.S. the last time! Kilometers go down much faster on
the highway!
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Joan Jurancich wrote:

> I am not an expert in late 18th century American clothing.  What do the 
> experts on this list think of this book? Is it a decent starting point?
> 
> http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486273202.html

I thought it was an excellent starting point. There are brief 
descriptions of the types of clothing worn by men and women, children, 
and the natives in the New Hampshire area. The descriptions are not too 
brief, and cover all the layers. The book goes on to give diagrams and 
directions for constructing many of the basic wardrobe items for all the 
people it describes. It is aimed at the re-enactor, and covers a couple 
of historical vs. modern decency issues. (The loincloth directions come 
to mind) There is also a list of suppliers and sources, plus a good 
biliography/ reading list in the back. It seemed to have been well 
researched, but it is a few years old and some of the sources might be a 
bit dated by now.



Dawn


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> wrote
>At 01:03 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>>Then you have us poor Canuks that are caught right in between both systems.
>>
>>Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say: 'Oh, about 10 miles.'
>>Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16 kilometers.'
>>Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
>>
>>Personally I use both, I was raised on the Metric system in school, but at
>>home everyone still used the US Imperial. For my sewing I switch back and
>>forth depending on how accurate I need things to be. I buy my fabric by the
>>meter, but measure myself and my own patterns in inches, unless I'm doing
>>something really fiddly.
>>
>>Sheridan

Oh no we don't!!  UK still uses miles for road distances - although all 
goods have to be sold in metric, just to keep you confused.  The 
Republic of Ireland has just changed from miles to kilometres, and 
changed the speed limits at the same time - but Northern Ireland is 
still in miles, with the rest of the UK.  Maybe their officials have 
been to Canada to see how it works out?

Jean


-- 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns (as was)
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> Sorry, but yours is a view of someone who has not tried to make anything
> up directly from her patterns (neither personal fit nor scaling has
> anything to do with it).  Some of them simply don't work.

>From what I understand, they were not meant to be taken as patterns, but as
diagrams of the shapes of the pieces. So it's normal they don't work when
scaled up.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: pattern review?
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> I just know now to make it several
> sizes larger than the patterns calls for and to make one (or more)
> muslins.

That's good news for me. That means the smallest size *might* actually fit
me this time. Even Margo's size 2 is too big in the bust for me :-(
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From: "Five Rivers" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: embroidery transfer problem
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Status: RO

    Ah, it would seem the answer is water-soluble Vilene. Amazing thing the
internet. Helps one get out of the box of historical method and into the
21st century! Who knew there were water soluble films around?

Lorina
(doing a happy dance)
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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> How about using one of the tear-away tissues that you draw the pattern on,
> baste the tissue to the piece you are embroidering, and stitch the outline
> of your motifs onto the fabric, then tear-away the tissue and fill in the
> motifs?  Or if you have a linear pattern, do a guide line in running
stitch
> that will be covered by the embroidery stitches.  Using a single strand of
> whatever color your pattern calls for should give you enough of a guide.
> Joan Jurancich

That's what I was going to suggest, but it might be as time-consuming as the
pounce-and-ink method...
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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Greetings--

> Oh no we don't!!  UK still uses miles for road distances - although all
> goods have to be sold in metric, just to keep you confused.  The
> Republic of Ireland has just changed from miles to kilometres, and
> changed the speed limits at the same time - but Northern Ireland is
> still in miles, with the rest of the UK.  Maybe their officials have
> been to Canada to see how it works out?

Around my part of Canada (S. Ontario--Toronto) no one uses miles at all
anymore.  The road signs are all in kilometres only.

But we still order our beer in pints, describe our height in feet and inches
(despite what it says on our driver's licenses) and usually make our
recipies using teaspoons, tablespoons, and cups.  As I think someone pointed
out, a lot of our fabric stores still use yards.  And you will still hear a
few people using Fahrenheit for temperatures.

Susan

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] vintage hair
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>Ok, how old does something have to be to qualify as 'historical'? :)

According to me or according to my 20-year-old? ("Oh, Mom, that's so 90's".)

>Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat Benatar's 
>makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was essentially two 
>halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a really high topknot, 
>but I can't find the silly things any more. I need one (or more) for a 
>costume I am working on, but they seem to have vanished. Does anybody have 
>any leads for this sort of thing? If you're going to tell me the beauty 
>supply near you still sells them, email me privately because I may want 
>you to go buy me some. I'm at a dead end here.

Most modern ponytail elastic-thingies will do the job.  Double up on them 
to get the height you seem to want.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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At 3:44 PM -0700 1/26/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat
>Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was
>essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a
>really high topknot, but I can't find the silly things any more. I need
>one (or more) for a costume I am working on, but they seem to have

WalMart....yeah I know but they had them the last time I was there...
Ta
Carol who is pissed our local Wally World is cutting back on the 
selection o plastic storage devices--now that I have money and a need 
for em!
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Dawn wrote:
> Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat 
> Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was 
> essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a 
> really high topknot, but I can't find the silly things any more.

So the tube provided a significant amount of volume for a high hair-bun? 
  In other words, a new variant on the hair rat?  I haven't seen 
anything like that for sale these days, but if it's just bulk you need, 
you could make a donut-shaped hair rat.

Oh, wait, another thought: was it more like a bracelet that made the 
ponytail stand up, with teeth inside to hold it onto an 
already-rubberbanded ponytail?  I've seen those around, I think...

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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Subject: [h-cost] miles/kilometres/minutes
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:34:22 -0500
> Ask an American how far it is to town he'll say:
'Oh, about 10 
miles.'
> Ask an Englishman, he'll say: 'Oh, about 16
kilometers.'
> Ask a Canadian: 'Oh, about 15 minutes, eh?'  :-)
>> Sheridan
 
Hi!
Ask a British person (be they Scot, Irish or Welsh!
even English!) and they'll give you the answer in
MILES. Our signposts are still imperial, in spite of
some poor folk being prosecuted (that's right) for
selling vegetables by the pound, not the kilo...
For the record, I use minutes and miles
interchangeably: more than half an hour and it's
miles...

Katherine the newbie who only wanted to lurk.




	
	
		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dyed fur period?
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Oh, yeah....now I have this vision stuck in my head, of a whole room 
full of people, all in Fancy-Schmancy Elizabethan, with pink bunny 
slippers on their feet, and instead of doing an appropriate volta or 
something, they're all dancing in a line to that dance that goes "left 
foot, left foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, hop, hop....."
--sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of a sanity check.....

Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

>>> There is even a reference on
>>>page 215 to "Two paire of Slyppers of Tufte Taffata, the one paire lyned
>>>with skarlet and in the soles with carnacion velvet, thother paire lyned
>>>with shagge."
>>
>>Hmmm, so what you are saying is that big furry,fluffy slippers are period?
>>;-)
>>
>>Sheridan
>>-who now has images of lovely Elizabethan gowns with pink bunny slippers
>>going through my head....
>>
> 
> 
> 
> They're LINED with the stuff... fur on the inside. Gosh, what an image you
> brought up in my head...


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Cynthia Virtue wrote:

> Oh, wait, another thought: was it more like a bracelet that made the 
> ponytail stand up, with teeth inside to hold it onto an 
> already-rubberbanded ponytail?  I've seen those around, I think...


That's exactly what I'm looking for. I want that tacky plastic 80's look.

I'll have to check WalMart as Carol suggested. I normally avoid the place.



Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:40:05 -0500
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On Wednesday 26 January 2005 3:08 pm, Joan Jurancich wrote:
> I am not an expert in late 18th century American clothing.  What do the
> experts on this list think of this book? Is it a decent starting point?
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486273202.html

I agree with the comment that this book is a good starting point, but this one 
is an even better one--Rural Pennsylvania Clothing, by Ellen J. Gehret:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873871057/qid=1106795771/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6262009-3792905?v=glance&s=books

I think it's out of print, but at least two people selling via Amazon seem to 
have copies, though at a fairly high price.  I got my copy on EBay a few 
years ago for about $20, so keep looking--it may turn up cheaper than you 
think.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Dawn wrote:

> Cynthia Virtue wrote:
> 
>> Oh, wait, another thought: was it more like a bracelet that made the 
>> ponytail stand up, with teeth inside to hold it onto an 
>> already-rubberbanded ponytail?  I've seen those around, I think...

> That's exactly what I'm looking for. I want that tacky plastic 80's look.
> 
> I'll have to check WalMart as Carol suggested. I normally avoid the place.

I tried some online searches at the most obvious suspects, and some 
non-obvious ones, but the technical term for the thing eludes me 
completely; it doesn't fit in any of the standard categories at all. 
You'll probably have to find it in person.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:27:53 -0500
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As a starting place, I have found this to be adequate for basic country
clothing.It originally appeared about 1990 as "Put on thy Lovely Garments."

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan Jurancich" <joanmj@surewest.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:08 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800


> I am not an expert in late 18th century American clothing.  What do the
> experts on this list think of this book? Is it a decent starting point?
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486273202.html
>
>
> Joan Jurancich
> joanmj@surewest.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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Unfortunately the only Sanity Check I recieved BOUNCED!!!  LOL!!!!

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
> Oh, yeah....now I have this vision stuck in my head, of a whole room full of people, all in Fancy-Schmancy Elizabethan, with pink bunny slippers on their feet, and instead of doing an appropriate volta or something, they're all dancing in a line to that dance that goes "left foot, left foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, hop, hop....."--sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of a sanity check.....

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies 
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:22:54 -0500
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My research which was about 10 years ago could only set the first uniform at
a color design for the 1785's. We settled on a green and cream uniform of
the general style of military uniforms of the period.  The hat is a 'tar'
hat with up-turned brim usually found on ships of that time.  After I had
assembled the set of 6, I had occasion to visit the USS Constitution in
Boston.  In one of the berths, they had a uniform that I was able to examine
up close.  It was a fair copy of the ones I had just finished.  Of it's
condition, I judged it to have been made in 1876 for the Centennial
celebration.  In the attached museum, they have one or two antique 'tar'
hats.  One special feature is, of course, the leather neck piece.  I am sure
you should be able to hone this information to be more up to date and
accessible than when I was challenged to do my set for a retired marine
colorguard.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Smart" <altablue@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:56 PM
Subject: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies


>
> Anyone researched the United States Continental Marines? My father will
join a local group re-enacting the Marines part in the American Revolution.
(My dad is USMC retired after 27 years. Reenacting the American Revolution
is a perfect activity for him even though he is not from this country. He
acts as if he won the Lottery!)
>
>
>
> Here is a page with some graphics
>
> http://www.acidus.com/Continental_Marines.html
>
>
> I have two questions:
> First: What modern fabrics would be a good choice for this outfit
(especially the coat)? I am finding differences of opinion even among USMC
re enactors and historians. Some say broadcloth. Some say only wool imported
from England. I SAW one in polyester--and he was proud of it (shutter!). I
guess I am asking what would be a reasonable replication in today's fabrics?
>
>
>
> Second: Does anyone know how rank or insignia were identified? This is the
only suggestion I received:
>
> "Rank wasn't as clear cut back then as it is now. Corporals wore a green
epaulette on the shoulder, sergeants wore a red sash and red epaulettes.
Officers also wore epaulettes - one white one for a Lieutenant, and Captains
and above wore two. Officers could also be told apart by the fact that their
uniforms were made of much finer cloth, and sometimes had extra
embellishments such as embroidery etc, and they wore cocked hats rather than
the round hats that the men wore. Officers also wore gorgets [sic.] and
swords when they were on duty."
>
>
>
> Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thank you in advance for your time,
>
> Heather Smart
>
> Brea, California
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] HELP! Continental Marnies
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Hi. The USMC has it's own history department dedicated to things of this 
sort.I'm sure that the reenactment unit has contacted them and has all 
of the info for the uniforms, etc.  I know that they were founded in 
Philadelphia early in the war, presumably with their HQ at the Tun 
Tavern by the river (now under Rt 95). I participate in reenacting the 
USMC's ancestor, the Duke of York and Albany's Maritime regiment (The 
Admiral's Regt.), the predicessor of the Royal Marines, and therefore 
the USMC. Odly enough, our coat colors are yellow faced with red, the 
current USMC colors. We wear red breeches, yellow stockings and a black 
hat with a white band. Officers wear a red sash and enlisted a white 
one. Easy to see (and shoot, I suppose, but that's the 17th cent., you 
know...) Can't really give you more info on your era, but to say talk to 
the unit folks for guidance if you are planning on doing some sewing for 
your Dad. That way, the clothing you make will be up to snuff for the 
unit's needs.  Cheers, Mike T.


>  
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: (Going way OT here)- Weights/measures...
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I think time vs. miles depends on where you live -

In large urban areas like Chicago, Denver, the east and west Coasts - they 
tend to use time, which is also dependent on time of day, because traffic 
makes a big difference.  Some times/places, it will take you an hour to go 
20 miles, others it will take 20-30 min.

In other areas (like the Midwest, where we are) people use miles, because 
the time is (almost) totally dependent on distance - traffic rarely causes 
delays.  Makes for fun translations when we visit the coasts and want to 
know how far it is to someplace.

Sandy (and Pierre, in Lincoln, NE, who once drove to California twice in 
two months.)

At 01:16 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
>From: purplkat@optonline.net
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern review? (Going way OT here)-
>         Weights/measures...
>
>I grew up in very suburbia where distance was done in time not miles also.
>It'll take you about 20 min to get there,, it's only 10 min down the 
>road,, 1/2 hr to go full 'round the block,,,
>
>Katheryne
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
> > I'm a time = distance person, too; Boston is '2 hours' away.
>
> > Ann in CT, USA

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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In a message dated 1/27/05 3:29:54 AM GMT Standard Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

> Ask a British person (be they Scot, Irish or Welsh!
> even English!) and they'll give you the answer in
> MILES. 

Was about to say the same thing.  (Kilometers - silly (continental) European 
things that I can't understand even though I was taught at school - still have 
to say, so what's that in miles??).

But then I still use yards, feet and inches too.

deb.
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In a message dated 1/27/05 3:29:54 AM GMT Standard Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

Re. the billiard cloth - the baize from Hainsworths (Yorkshire, UK) is 
incredibly good (although everything they do is), and along with the rest of their 
heavy wools doesn't need to be hemmed (in fact is better not hemmed).  They are 
pricey, but it's worth it.

Deb (who uses miles of Hainsworth uniform cloths every year - sooooo 
dangerous haviong such a good manufacturer in the same county!).
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My son is going to a university in England and does set design, lighting, 
and sound.  He has something like a calculator that converts inches, feet, 
yards, to metric.  It is really a wonderful experience for him to know both 
measure conversions.  When he finishes at the university, he wants to work 
with touring theater productions or music bands. Because he knows both 
measurement conversions it will be a good selling point to get gigs.

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com 


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Does anyone know the first year of Mardi Gras / Carnival in Europe and South America with costume balls and parades?  I know Rio is really big on Carnival.   I know in the U.S. the first parade was in 1699 in Mobile, Alabama.  Although New Orleans claims to be first, my research says Mobile was.  

I am working on a series of articles for Mardi Gras, and would like to know the origins in Europe and South America.  Is Carnival celebrated in Australia?  What countries in Europe celebrate Carnival in Europe.  I know France and Germany celebrate. What other countries in Europe celebrate Carnival?  I have an article from 1902 about Carnival in France.  I have another article of a masquerade ball given by Queen Victoria in 1845.  
 
Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com 
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com 
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
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If you want to do the typing job, please call me after 2 pm East Coast time. 
804-745-1927.  I will call you right back because I have unlimited long 
distance on my phone.  I generally do not turn my computer on until 7 PM.  I 
will make an exception if someone wants this assignment.

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com 


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Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> altablue@yahoo.com 26/01/2005 19:56:42 >>> quoted 

..."Officers also wore gorgets [sic.] and swords when they were on
duty."


______________________________________________________________________

"Gorget" is the correct term; they were the little steel crescents
suspended at the throat, a vestigial reminder of the neck-piece of a
suit of armour.


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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No Sue, I don't think you need a reality check, the image is so remarkably 
vivid...  You know, that would make a really fun 12th Night or CostumeCon 
routine... <G>  Or maybe Teddy done up in Elizabethan for court...<G>

Cheers,
Danielle

At 07:00 PM 1/26/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Oh, yeah....now I have this vision stuck in my head, of a whole room full 
>of people, all in Fancy-Schmancy Elizabethan, with pink bunny slippers on 
>their feet, and instead of doing an appropriate volta or something, 
>they're all dancing in a line to that dance that goes "left foot, left 
>foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, hop, hop....."
>--sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of a sanity check.....

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Subject: [h-cost] 18th c. pockets - embroidery question
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Greetings,

While on the search for a good petticoat lining, I figured I would start 
smaller, with a pair of embroidered pockets.  I've looked through all of my 
books and on-line and was wondering if anyone has a reference to any 
embroidered in a silk/wool blended floss?  I've seen either silk or wool on 
their own but not together...I've got some gorgeous silk/wool floss in 
natural dye colours kicking around my sewing room that seem perfect and was 
hoping to be able to use it.  Anyone?

Cheers,
Danielle

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> I've looked over previous emails and have 'not' found my 
> answer. Does BL linen come in colors like red and yellow?

If it doesn't it should be easy to dye.

Teddy
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From: Gwen Kachelmyer <gwen@princessharold.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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They're called banana clips. or at least they were when I was younger.

Gwen

fastusminimus wrote:

> At 3:44 PM -0700 1/26/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>
>> Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat
>> Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was
>> essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a
>> really high topknot, but I can't find the silly things any more. I need
>> one (or more) for a costume I am working on, but they seem to have
>
>
> WalMart....yeah I know but they had them the last time I was there...
> Ta
> Carol who is pissed our local Wally World is cutting back on the 
> selection o plastic storage devices--now that I have money and a need 
> for em!
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: RE:  [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem
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> Use a light 
> board isn't an option because the pieces are too large.

I never had a light board/box, but when I lived at home with my parents
I discovered that their glass-topped coffee table (large and round) with
a desk-lamp or bedside lamp underneath made a great super-sized
lightbox, a did my sister's glass-topped dining table.

Don't know if that's any help to you?

Teddy
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> Oh, yeah....now I have this vision stuck in my head, of a whole room 
> full of people, all in Fancy-Schmancy Elizabethan, with pink bunny 
> slippers on their feet, and instead of doing an appropriate volta or 
> something, they're all dancing in a line to that dance that  goes
"left 
> foot, left foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, 
> hop, hop....." --sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of 
> a sanity check.....

Only  just *beginning* to think that???  Sue, surely you
jest....?....<GGGG>

Teddy
("I got my sainity check, now where do I go to pay it into my account!")
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gwen Kachelmyer" <gwen@princessharold.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device


> They're called banana clips. or at least they were when I was younger.
>
> Gwen

No, it isn't banana clips. I have one of those devices that she wants (if I 
didn't throw the silly thing away). It's round, whereas a banana clip 
is..well...banana-shaped.

I loved the look of the banana clips, but I could never get one to work for 
me. My hair was too thick, and they wouldn't close!

Dianne


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	<200501262240.05325.cathy@thyrsus.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:58:41 -0500
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The one point about "Rural Pennsylvania" that I have a problem with is that
the clothing described is based more on clothing of the German settlements
and some of it tends to be provincial. Of course, the Dover book is
presenting basic clothing of the New England area. Another resource is
"Tidings from the 18th Century".  Back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s, my
first book was "American Costume 1650-1799 by Estelle Worrell. it was OK as
a thumbnail reference, but way too simple for today's scholarship.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America
1783-1800


> On Wednesday 26 January 2005 3:08 pm, Joan Jurancich wrote:
> > I am not an expert in late 18th century American clothing.  What do the
> > experts on this list think of this book? Is it a decent starting point?
> >
> > http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486273202.html
>
> I agree with the comment that this book is a good starting point, but this
one
> is an even better one--Rural Pennsylvania Clothing, by Ellen J. Gehret:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873871057/qid=1106795771/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6262009-3792905?v=glance&s=books
>
> I think it's out of print, but at least two people selling via Amazon seem
to
> have copies, though at a fairly high price.  I got my copy on EBay a few
> years ago for about $20, so keep looking--it may turn up cheaper than you
> think.
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue
> that counts."--Winston Churchill
> _______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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Gwen Kachelmyer wrote:

> They're called banana clips. or at least they were when I was younger.

Er?  Those are the long ones, say 6" long, which Jordie on Star Trek 
Next Gen's eyewear was modeled after (they said it was!  Really!) but 
what Carol needs is something cylindrical, not more than about 2" at the 
wide base, that clips around a ponytail.

Amusingly, the things mimic a style I recall most vividly from 
golden-hued exotic middleastern Playboy cartoons of the early 70s.  Lots 
of harem girls with gold hair-cones, looking happy and extremely 
mammilian....

Nonetheless, I suppose the hair accessories websites might file the 
thing under bannana clips.  (Which is not the same thing as a bannana 
guard, of course. http://www.bananaguard.com/index.php )

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 27 09:21:05 2005
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, fastusminimus wrote:

> At 3:44 PM -0700 1/26/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
> >Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat
> >Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was
> >essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a
> >really high topknot...

I save everything, and I think I have one of these. About what was the
diameter and height of the closed tube? I think the one I have is about
two inches in diameter and an inch high, and either black or
tortoise-shell color, I forget. It has teeth on both sides that meet in
the middle. I bought it to use to hold my ponytail, but I don't wear a
high ponytail anymore, and it was too large and hard for a low ponytail. I
think I still have it, and it's yours if this is what you're looking for.

I am a sucker for hair devices. I also have banana clips, claw clips, and
those things that look like two combs connected by a zigzag spring. None
of them work right in my hair except the claws, which I use to hold my
hair up in the shower when I don't want it wet. I don't think I've worn
one outside the bathroom in years.

In addition to Wal-Mart, you might try your local dollar store, and any
large drugstore (e.g. Walgreens, Drug Emporium) or super-grocery
(Meijers).

--Robin

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Teddy wrote:

> I never had a light board/box, but when I lived at home with my
> parents I discovered that their glass-topped coffee table (large and
> round) with a desk-lamp or bedside lamp underneath made a great
> super-sized lightbox, a did my sister's glass-topped dining table.

I have done this too with our glass-topped end table. And for larger
pieces, I open the dining room table, remove the center leaf, and lay a
sheet of glass over the opening to create a glass table. Put a lamp
underneath, and I'm good to go, with lots of table space next to me for
supplies.

Not as nice as a Mayline desk, but it works, and doesn't take up extra
space when I'm not using it.

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mardi Gras / Carnival
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In a message dated 1/27/2005 2:57:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
penny@costumegallery.com writes:

1699 in  Mobile, Alabama.  Although New Orleans claims to be first, my 
research  says Mobile was.  



Are you sure about that 1699 date?  I seem to remember that Carnival  
celebrations started in the 1870s or 80s, as a bunch of guys basically just  raising 
cain (but yes, in Mobile) before developing into the fancy-schmancy  thing it 
came to be.  But it's been years since I researched that when I  was living on 
the Gulf Coast.
 
Some good info on the history of Caribbean Carnival can be found in  the 
catalogue from an exhibit:
Main Title:         Caribbean festival arts : each  and every bit of 
difference
/ John W. Nunley, Judith Bettelheim ; with  contributions
by Barbara Bridges ... [et al.].
Published/Created:   [Saint Louis] : Saint Louis Art Museum ; [Seattle] :
University of Washington  Press, 1988.

Ann Wass 
 
 
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The first time I encountered that particular dance was actually at a 
SciFi con.  Of course, that was also the Con at which I learned about 
Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters! ;-D
The dance, at least around here, is done to that 60s song that starts 
out "When you are strange....." It fits the rhythm perfectly....
--sue

Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:

> No Sue, I don't think you need a reality check, the image is so 
> remarkably vivid...  You know, that would make a really fun 12th Night 
> or CostumeCon routine... <G>  Or maybe Teddy done up in Elizabethan for 
> court...<G>
> 
> Cheers,
> Danielle
> 
> At 07:00 PM 1/26/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> Oh, yeah....now I have this vision stuck in my head, of a whole room 
>> full of people, all in Fancy-Schmancy Elizabethan, with pink bunny 
>> slippers on their feet, and instead of doing an appropriate volta or 
>> something, they're all dancing in a line to that dance that goes "left 
>> foot, left foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, hop, 
>> hop....."
>> --sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of a sanity check.....


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Sorta.  It's only when I actually have enough caffeine in my system for 
my brain to engage that the suspicion arises out of the depths. ;-D
--sue

Teddy wrote:


>>foot, left foot, right foot, right foot, forward, back, hop, 
>>hop, hop....." --sue, beginning to think she's in sad need of 
>>a sanity check.....
> 
> 
> Only  just *beginning* to think that???  Sue, surely you
> jest....?....<GGGG>


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If all else fails, there's always a well lit window and masking tape. You
just need to be really careful when you peel off the tape. 

Arlys

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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] vintage hair
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Nothing says tacky 80s hair to my mind better than the banana clip.
They were long, 6-8 inches, curved and put all your hair in a big,
long puff. Long as in from the top of your head to almost the base of
the head. I don't know if that's what you were thinking of. They are
still available at Longs, Walgreen's and Target.

LynnD

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:25:50 -0500, Cynthia Virtue
<cvirtue+dated+1122347966.e18225@thibault.org> wrote:
> Dawn wrote:
> 
> > Cynthia Virtue wrote:
> >
> >> Oh, wait, another thought: was it more like a bracelet that made the
> >> ponytail stand up, with teeth inside to hold it onto an
> >> already-rubberbanded ponytail?  I've seen those around, I think...
> 
> > That's exactly what I'm looking for. I want that tacky plastic 80's look.
> >
> > I'll have to check WalMart as Carol suggested. I normally avoid the place.
> 
> I tried some online searches at the most obvious suspects, and some
> non-obvious ones, but the technical term for the thing eludes me
> completely; it doesn't fit in any of the standard categories at all.
> You'll probably have to find it in person.
> 
> --
> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
> 
> Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in
> love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly:
> http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
> _______________________________________________
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When I was very young I found out that a Lite Brite base with a piece of glass balanced on the 'face' of the Lite Brite also works in a pinch.
(of course you have to remove the piece with all the little holes to get good lighting)

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
> 
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Teddy wrote:
> > I never had a light board/box, but when I lived at home with my parents I discovered that their glass-topped coffee table (large and round) with a desk-lamp or bedside lamp underneath made a great super-sized lightbox, a did my sister's glass-topped dining table.
> 
> I have done this too with our glass-topped end table. And for larger pieces, I open the dining room table, remove the center leaf, and lay a sheet of glass over the opening to create a glass table. Put a lamp underneath, and I'm good to go, with lots of table space next to me for supplies.
> --Robin

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I had written a paper on the history of the Carnevale
mask in Venice that covers its origins in that region,
if it helps at all. Let me know if you want to read
it. It's a rather large file - it includes art files
for the mask portion of the paper.

Kathy

> Subject: [h-cost] Mardi Gras / Carnival

> Does anyone know the first year of Mardi Gras /
> Carnival in Europe and South America with costume
> balls and parades?  <snipped>
> Penny Ladnier, owner
> The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com 
> Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com 
> Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com

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thank,s for that, yes that type may work for the dresses,,but where my 
inflatable crinoline dresses are concerned we have nearly always used a beachball 
type valve in the sleeve of the dress, but a more descreet type of valve would 
be better for inflatable dresses,or perhaps some way to colour the valve to 
make it blend in would be better
Pippa,
ps SUSAN, contact me over your inflatable crinoline wedding dress,again as 
ive lost your email ,
Pippa
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ive got a lady that has requested one of my inflatable crinoline wedding 
dresses, but the pattern i dont have or pictures either to make my own pattern,s
pattern needed1857 Bavarian crinoline dress.
also does anyone know of any compant who sells pvc or rubber coate Irish 
Linen Or English Broadcloth
Pippa
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>also does anyone know of any compant who sells pvc or rubber coate Irish
>Linen Or English Broadcloth

Check the Kinky places, like the ones with whips and handcuffs, because 
some of those people wear clothes made of things like that.  I don't know 
what historical Kinky clothes look like, except for some shoes with heels 
that are way to high to permit walking.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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hi i need help in locating a bavarian dress pattern, its for a 1856 bavarian 
crinoline dress, for a client who wants me to make her an inflatable version 
of this dress
Pippa
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i am looking for a supplier of pvc coated taffetta for a crinoline dress that 
i am now designing
can anyone help
pip
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Have you ever seen pvc coated taffeta?  I'm not sure it even exists.  I 
work with pvc fabric a lot, but none of it resembles taffeta at all.

Sylrog

On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:39 PM, KV59213@aol.com wrote:

> i am looking for a supplier of pvc coated taffetta for a crinoline 
> dress that
> i am now designing
> can anyone help
> pip
> _______________________________________________
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hey Susan, sorry i lost your email address, as we have been having a few 
problem,s here.
yes i have had a check for bavarian crinoline pattern,s but can find 
none,perhaps, some kind soul out there could email me and let me know if there are any 
patterns anywhere, for a 1857 bavarian crinoline dress or dresses.
in awnser to you question, yes i will make you the inflatable bavarian 
wedding dress if, i can get the pattern, also if that fails i will use a victorian 
crinoline pattern from the same date,and it will be fully inflatable like the 
one i did for miss bardette,and the others.
if your husband is into D,I,Y Computer,s and likes building themor likes 
doing electronics, get him to email my husband on this email address, as he has 
workshops full of part,s for computer self builders and electronic buff,s , 
address it to steve,and not to pippa.
here from you soon
pippa
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 27 18:21:58 2005
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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Christopher Crockett from the Medieval-Religion list I'm on (MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK) is pondering some mysterious accessories and wants to know if we have any ideas on what they are.

Here's his message. Opinions welcome. I find the small scale and shallow carving of these objects rather odd, compared to the rest of the statue, but Christopher seems to think they're part of the original sculpture.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Crockett <bccrockett@USA.NET>
Sent: Jan 27, 2005 9:46 AM
To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [M-R] metal decorations on clothing

as it happens, i've recently been trying to identify a very curious
element found on a bit of 12th century sculpture.
 
it is, apparently, some sort of "utilitarian" object, not a
"decorative" one.
 
among the extraordinary, very high quality sculptures found in
excavations from the church of the Annunciation in Nazareth, is a large (73cm
high) fragment of a torso of St. Peter (identifiable by his keys and church)

http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/nazareth/bagatti/colfigs/bagatti-pl42.jpg

http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/nazareth/bagatti/colfigs/bagatti-pl43-3.jpg

he wears a cord-belt, below and to the left of the knot of which is
suspended this curious object, carved in low relief on the smooth area of the
fabric just there :

http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/nazareth/bagatti/colfigs/bagatti-pl43-4.jpg

(note that the image will expand to larger than the size of an IE
window)
 
it appears to be some sort of "heart-shaped" object, suspended from a
wound cord smaller in diameter than the cord which serves as Peter's belt.

to the right of it is something else which i can't quite make out:
perhaps a thin leather(?) strap, looped in a half-hitch around the belt at the
top and ending in a series of regularly punched holes.

is there something suspended from it, just where the punched holes
begin?

what *are* these objects ??

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: jiscmail@jiscmail.ac.uk
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|  <claning@igc.org>
+  Davis, California
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 27 18:24:43 2005
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hey Susan, sorry i lost your email address, as we have been having a few 
problem,s here.
yes i have had a check for bavarian crinoline pattern,s but can find 
none,perhaps, some kind soul out there could email me and let me know if there are any 
patterns anywhere, for a 1857 bavarian crinoline dress or dresses.
in awnser to you question, yes i will make you the inflatable bavarian 
wedding dress if, i can get the pattern, also if that fails i will use a victorian 
crinoline pattern from the same date,and it will be fully inflatable like the 
one i did for miss bardette,and the others.
if your husband is into D,I,Y Computer,s and likes building themor likes 
doing electronics, get him to email my husband on this email address, as he has 
workshops full of part,s for computer self builders and electronic buff,s , 
address it to steve,and not to pippa.
here from you soon
pippa
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Jan 27 18:27:14 2005
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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Fwd: Females dressing as males in army & navy
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There's an interesting discussion going on this week on the
H-ALBION mailing list (history of England) about "females who dress as males
in army & navy", which might be of interest to some. You can access individual
messages, download archives, search, et cetera at:

http://www.h-net.org/~albion/



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0  Chris Laning
|  <claning@igc.org>
+  Davis, California
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:32:42 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
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>it appears to be some sort of "heart-shaped" object, suspended from a
>wound cord smaller in diameter than the cord which serves as Peter's belt.

That looks like a small non-folding fan to me.  Don't know why he'd be 
carrying one.  I see what looks like its handle on top pointing upward 
toward the belt-hanger cord.  Don't know what the long narrow thing is 
beside it, nor the 3-pronged-fork-shaped thing floating on the other side 
of it.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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KV59213@aol.com wrote:
> i manufacture inflatable crinoline dresses, and of course use the airtight 
> material,s such as rubberised fabric,s pvc, rubber,etc, but i have heard of a 
> special balloon fabric, which i have been told would be ideal for my work,and 
> besides being airtight it is ultra light, 
> can anyone help me on what this fabric may be.

The only place I know of that would specialize in watertight/airtight 
fabric is a marine supply, a place that sells materials for making and 
outfitting ships. In my experience they do not sell retail.


Dawn

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Hmmmm.

The strap suggests either the end of a belt (rest of the belt under the 
rope belt) or just a random strap for something which St. P attached to 
his rope belt to have handy.

The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why St. P 
would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.

I'd like to hear other people's theories.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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Oh, and the other thing just under the rope next to the strap is clearly 
a McDonald's Hash Brown in its wrapper.
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:58:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" <chiara@io.com>
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Looks like a pomander, ya know, the smelly things.

The other looks like a garter or a date counter.

Has anyone done some photo enhancement to see what the other lines
are? It may change the look of the items completely and give us a
better clue as to what they are. :)

Chiara

Cynthia Virtue said:
> Hmmmm.
>
> The strap suggests either the end of a belt (rest of the belt under
> the
> rope belt) or just a random strap for something which St. P attached
> to
> his rope belt to have handy.
>
> The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why
> St. P
> would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.
>
> I'd like to hear other people's theories.
>
> --
> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
>
> Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or
> unlucky in
> love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours
> truly:
> http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


Franchesca Havas
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Cynthia Virtue wrote:

> The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why St. P 
> would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.
> 
> I'd like to hear other people's theories.
> 

Agree on the fan theory, although I'm not sure how important it is that 
all the accessories be portrayed to scale, as obviously the church he 
holds is not.

Also noticed the trident symbol carved to the left of the 'fan'. 
Variously used as a symbol for Poseidon, an indication of power (often 
military) and sometimes used to represent the Christian father-son-holy 
ghost trinity.



Dawn


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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:56:19 -0500
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Hi~

Like many women with really long hair, I collected just about every shape, size, color and variety
of "hair toy" ever made. I love to do silly things with my hair!  Most of the clips and holders
have self-destructed over the years, they just don't usually seem to be able to handle the weight
of long, thick hair like I think they should. ;o)

If I were looking for one of these today... (sorry, mine all bit the dust years ago) I'd go to flea
markets off-the-beaten-track junk stores. Anyplace that has very slow moving stock, or resells
leftover merchandise.  Also try eBay... you can find almost anything there! Dollar Stores are
another good idea.

Meanwhile, here are some interesting sites to take a peek at:

(This one has just about every hair toy on the planet!)
http://mp.hairboutique.com/
Maybe this, for the effect if not the exact product?:
http://mp.hairboutique.com/product.asp?ProdID=104043&CtgID=245

http://www.longhairgirl.com/php/index.php

http://www.eclecticala.com/index.htm

Pax,
::Linda::
-
> At 3:44 PM -0700 1/26/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
> >Does anyone here remember the 80's? Cyndi Lauper's hair and Pat
> >Benatar's makeup?  I can remember a kind of ponytail holder that was
> >essentially two halves of a tube that clamped together and gave you a
> >really high topknot...




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From: Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
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When I expanded the image, the object to the right of the heart shaped 
object clearly looked (to me at least) like a small  knife in a sheath. If 
you look closely you can see the handle protruding from the sheath. This 
was a common object that everyone carried: religious, secular, male and 
female..even older children.

I have not a clue as to the heart shaped object partially behind the knife, 
unless it is a small purse or pouch.

Beth

At 06:52 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
>o the right of it is something else which i can't quite make out:
>perhaps a thin leather(?) strap, looped in a half-hitch around the belt at the
>top and ending in a series of regularly punched holes.

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Subject: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s
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are there any germans out there,with knowledge of where i can findpatterns 
for bavarian crinoline dresses of about 1857, as i need them for a lady who 
wants me to make up an inflatable bavarian wedding dress for her
or pattern information would be useful as well
Pip
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Subject: [h-cost] PHILLIPAS FASHION INFLATABLE CRINOLINE DRESSES
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while pippa and her staff work ,the whole worls sleeps,while we are creating 
beautiful inflatable dresses, the world dozes and lets life slip by them,just 
like sleeping beauty, the only trouble is there are no princr charmings to 
wake them ,as they are all on there zimmer frames by the time sleeping beauty 
wakes up and finds her  dress is out of date and eaten by the moth,s
From
Sara, Pippa, And Lucy
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net (Elena O'Tighearnaigh)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] special materials
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Hm..For all kinds of marine and outdoor fabrics, you might try www.seattlefabrics.com
They have a whole lotta kinds of fabrics that might work.

--
Slan go foill 
Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri 

Emer's Needle Wares

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> KV59213@aol.com wrote: 
> > i manufacture inflatable crinoline dresses, and of course use the airtight 
> > material,s such as rubberised fabric,s pvc, rubber,etc, but i have heard of a 
> > special balloon fabric, which i have been told would be ideal for my work,and 
> > besides being airtight it is ultra light, 
> > can anyone help me on what this fabric may be. 
> 
> The only place I know of that would specialize in watertight/airtight 
> fabric is a marine supply, a place that sells materials for making and 
> outfitting ships. In my experience they do not sell retail. 
> 
> 
> Dawn 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
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I was thinking knife/scabbard- eating utensil, not a weapon class blade.
But not an expert on anything, just thinking. Betsy

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Carolyn Kayta Barrows
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:33 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories


>it appears to be some sort of "heart-shaped" object, suspended from a
>wound cord smaller in diameter than the cord which serves as Peter's belt.

That looks like a small non-folding fan to me.  Don't know why he'd be 
carrying one.  I see what looks like its handle on top pointing upward 
toward the belt-hanger cord.  Don't know what the long narrow thing is 
beside it, nor the 3-pronged-fork-shaped thing floating on the other side 
of it.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:08:53 -0500
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On Thursday 27 January 2005 6:51 pm, Cynthia Virtue wrote:
> Hmmmm.
>
> The strap suggests either the end of a belt (rest of the belt under the
> rope belt) or just a random strap for something which St. P attached to
> his rope belt to have handy.

No, the strap thing looks to me like one edge of a scabbard for a knife of 
some kind
>
> The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why St. P
> would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.

I can't tell from the image how large it is relative to the Saint, but it sure 
looks to me like one of those non-folding fans...


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
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On Thursday 27 January 2005 7:58 am, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:
> The one point about "Rural Pennsylvania" that I have a problem with is that
> the clothing described is based more on clothing of the German settlements
> and some of it tends to be provincial.

On the other hand, a shirt is a shirt, and Rural Pennsylvania clothing has 
wonderful close-ups of period shirts.

There are no costume books that don't need to be reviewed with caveats in 
mind.  I did not mean to imply that I thought Rural Pennsylvania Clothing 
should be the sole work consulted on the subject.  

For further reading, if you go to the "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" page for 
which I provided a URL, you'll find a link to a list of other useful books on 
the clothing of that period compiled by Kass McGann:  here's a direct link to 
that list:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/H3MDQ2DPOH39/ref=cm_lm_lists/102-6262009-3792905

> Of course, the Dover book is 
> presenting basic clothing of the New England area. Another resource is
> "Tidings from the 18th Century".  Back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s, my
> first book was "American Costume 1650-1799 by Estelle Worrell. it was OK as
> a thumbnail reference, but way too simple for today's scholarship.

I've never heard of Worrell's book, and I started reading about historic 
costume in the late 1970s-early 1980s.  I wonder how I missed that one!


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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What a clever idea Teddy!

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com 
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com 
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mardi Gras / Carnival
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Ann,

In 1999, my family went home to the Gulf Coast for a week of hopping from 
one city to the next for Mardi Gras.  I have literature from the Mobile 
Historical Society that states 1699.  I also remember that the big theme 
that year for all the Mobile MG Crewes was a celebration of 300 years of MG.

Thanks for the book, I will see if I can locate it.

My shy asst. Susan, who has been on h-costume for a year or so and is scared 
to de-lurk, sent me this information:

I looked in the insert and got some information The first carnival 
observance was in 1703 at 27 Mile Bluff by French Settle as it was a 
cultural tradition in France. It was observed by meal with family and 
friend.

In 1830 Michael Kraft and some friends paraded with cowbell and agricultural 
implements through the streets of town and the first Mystical parading 
society was formed Cowbellion de Rakin Society.

1866 while the Union Forces occupied Mobile they revied the Kraft parade, 
which had not taken place during the Civil War. They were that ones that 
dressed up as Chickasaw Indian chief, Slacabamorinico.

Then I looked online and found this timeline which give a timeline, they are 
saying 1699 here because *copy & paste*
Pierre Le Moyne', declares his camp "Pointe du Mardi Gras", (Mardi Gras 
Point), as Alabama's first European settler's entered the 
Mississippi/Alabama/Louisiana Delta Gulf Coast Region. This is considered 
the first celebration of Mardi Gras in the U.S.

But it doesn't say by whom it is considered.  Web page here
http://www.mardigrasdigest.com/html/mardi_gras_history__timeline_mobile.htm


The other information was in the insert and @ the state website here
http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/propage/AL/al_s_sessions3.html

It is listed as the Mardi Gras in Mobile - History by the Library of 
Congress

******************************************************
I have to laugh here... Susan and my husbands are members of founding 
families for this area of the U.S.  I could see them with LeMoyne 
celebrating MG by the campfire at Pointe du Mardi Gras!

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Mardi Gras / Carnival
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Is Mardi Gras / Carnival celebrated in Canada and/or Central America?  

Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com 
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com 
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:42:15 -0600
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I am include to agree with the idea that the object on the right is a knife
in a sheath.
The "trident" to the left which is not a trident, note the base is split
with a dot could be a maker's mark. The heart reminds me of the top to a
pouch but the fold in the fabric seems to negate this possibility. So my
next guess would be a fancy drinking cup/travelers cup. I do not think it is
a fan as it looks to small to be one.

De



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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:08:10 -0600
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Gee I can't spell.


I am (inclined) to agree with the idea that the object on the right is a
knife
in a sheath.
De





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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:34:22 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Mardi Gras / Carnival
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Well, in Toronto there is the annual Caribana festival that I believe is 
the world's largest of its type - it's rather amazing because around 
Caribana, downtown Toronto fills with visitors, many of whom are from the 
Caribbean.  It is definitely a Mardi Gras/Carnival type celebration with 
incredible costumes and food and parades.  The only difference is, it 
happens during the summer not in the spring.  http://www.caribana.com/

Cheers,
Danielle

At 12:06 AM 1/28/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Is Mardi Gras / Carnival celebrated in Canada and/or Central America?
>
>Penny Ladnier, owner
>The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com Costume Research Library, 
>www.costumelibrary.com Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sale on Wool Gabardine
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan Jurancich" <joanmj@surewest.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Sale on Wool Gabardine


> I just received an email from Fabric Mart.com that has a good sale on wool
> gabardine, several colors, all at $3.99 per yard.  I know how hard it is
to
> find this stuff.
> http://www.fabricmartfabrics.com/worsted_wool_gabardine.htm
>
> Joan Jurancich
> joanmj@surewest.net

And for anybody not in North America don't bother, I checked their shipping
policy and they won't ship outside the USA & Canada (though at least they
declare it unlike another online fabric store that just fails to mention the
world outside the USA & you don't find out till you email them)
Elizabeth [seriously disappointed I've been looking for some wool gabardine
and you just can't beat that price]
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole@iimetro.com.au

Mr. Speaker, I said the honourable member was a liar it is true and I am
sorry for it. The honourable member may place the punctuation where he
pleases.
Richard Brinsley Sheridan (1751-1816) British dramatist. On being asked to
apologise for calling a fellow MP a liar. Attrib.

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Subject: [h-cost] inflatable alice in wonderland dress
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dear  mandy, yes i can help with that,we have plenty of patterns here for 
that type of inflatable dress,if you get back to me with the  measurements in 
time i will get lucy do start, yes pvc is ideal for this one
pip
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hi bob, if you are looking for inflatable dresses and fashion wear email me,
but if you are into retro computers, or d i y computer parts and building 
contact steve on this email addressed to steve
Pippa
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Jan 28 04:51:36 2005
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:50:46 +0000
From: Teddy <Teddy@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for material
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> Have you ever seen pvc coated taffeta?  I'm not sure it even exists.
I 
> work with pvc fabric a lot, but none of it resembles taffeta at all.

It'll be out there *somewhere*.  If they do pvc coated children's
patchwork prints I'm sure they *must* do taffeta.  I think the printed
cotton stuff was done for children's rainwear and table-cloths, the same
designs were available in regular cotton print (patchwork cotton) and
fleece.

Teddy
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Jan 28 05:03:22 2005
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> What a clever idea Teddy!

Thanks

Since Robin came up with pretty much the same thing, I think it must be
one of these "deperate costumer" things.....<g>

Teddy

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Mardi Gras / Carnival
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Penny Ladnier wrote:
> Is Mardi Gras / Carnival celebrated in Canada and/or Central America? 

Definitely in Quebec: http://www.carnaval.qc.ca/en/

I went one year in my teens; fun, cold time!

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi,
I can tell you that in this house we have no handyman anywhere. In our 
bathroom, i have hangers wich are sticked to the wall. When it breaks and 
fall down, a new one comes up. I have a small wall cabinet i buyed from Ikea 
5 years ago, wich still is in its box. I dont dare to pack it up because i 
know i have to use a driller to fix it.
So it still is waiting for a handyman. The lack of a handy man is to be seen 
every where in the house i can tell you.
Me and Leif are not handymen................

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:04:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
penny@costumegallery.com writes:

In 1830  Michael Kraft and some friends paraded with cowbell and agricultural 
 
implements through the streets of town and the first Mystical parading  
society was formed Cowbellion de Rakin Society.

1866 while the  Union Forces occupied Mobile they revied the Kraft parade, 
which had not  taken place during the Civil War. They were that ones that 
dressed up as  Chickasaw Indian chief, Slacabamorinico.



That is the history I'm remembering from my days on the Gulf Coast.
 
Ann Wass
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Subject: [h-cost] Victorian hairdo tutorial?
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Hi, all! Since haridos and headgear are important parts of an overall
look, I'm hoping this won't be considered off-topic. :)

The background: I'm going to an event this summer (a LARP, actually, but
the Norwegian kind which I gather is somewhat different from the
American) which aims to be as historically correctly costumed as it is
possible to get people to do for a one-off event. I plan to have a
pretty strong focus on authenticity, but because of the part I'm playing
(the rich but tasteless brothel owner) I'm going to incorporate some
Hollywoodism as well. This means things like maybe eveningwear and
decolletage during the day, and preferably some really flambuoyant hair.
Which, as I don't plan to cut a fringe/bangs for this one week, probably
means that I need to be stuck in the 1870's hairwise. Something I don't
really know how to do, although I know there will have to be major
amounts of fake hairpieces involved!

I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for books or maybe online articles
that deal with the actual doing-up of 1870's and 1880's hairstyles? I've
found some articles about hair_care_, but I don't seem to be able to
find anything that can teach me how to put it up correctly. I'll
probably be able to scrape by anyhow, but a guide would help a lot.

Any hints are very welcome! :)

Ingrid

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At Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:39:08 -0600, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg 
<dannw@mn.rr.com> wrote:

>No Sue, I don't think you need a reality check, the image is so remarkably 
>vivid...  You know, that would make a really fun 12th Night or CostumeCon 
>routine... <G>  Or maybe Teddy done up in Elizabethan for court...<G>

More fun would be to have Teddy the *teddy bear* done up that way (and yes, 
one *can* purchase teddy-bear-sized bunny slippers at Michael's, A. C. 
Moore, etc...)



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:33:06 -0500
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>From my study of ethnic costume, any Bavarian costume of that time period
would be what we loosely would term "folk dress". A crinoline dress would
reflect a fashion consciousness of what was being worn in the Monde.
As you have requested, any one who has studied the crinoline as it was being
worn by fashionable Germans of that time period would be a better start
toward finding a style that might have been seen in Bavaria. I suspect that
looking for pics of Vienna would be a good start.
Since this will most likely be a fantasy gown of sorts, you might check
films that feature Strauss (The waltz king) or such.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <KV59213@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:17 PM
Subject: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s


> are there any germans out there,with knowledge of where i can findpatterns
> for bavarian crinoline dresses of about 1857, as i need them for a lady
who
> wants me to make up an inflatable bavarian wedding dress for her
> or pattern information would be useful as well
> Pip
> _______________________________________________
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References: <4.2.2.20050126120544.00d83400@pop.surewest.net><200501262240.05325.cathy@thyrsus.com><001701c5046f$ee5117a0$675183d1@rmitchellras>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
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She did the American Costume in two volumes, bringing them up to the
Twentieth century.  Also a nice doll house book and 11" cloth fashion doll
with costume patterns for about three centuries of fashion..Believe it or
not, I found some of the pattern shapes useful for people constructions.  A
bit primitive I admit, but there wasn't a lot out there when I began doing
stage costume in 1965.  Another book by Worrell that I still use as a
pictoral reference and style description is her Children's Fashions volume.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America
1783-1800


> On Thursday 27 January 2005 7:58 am, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:
> > The one point about "Rural Pennsylvania" that I have a problem with is
that
> > the clothing described is based more on clothing of the German
settlements
> > and some of it tends to be provincial.
>
> On the other hand, a shirt is a shirt, and Rural Pennsylvania clothing has
> wonderful close-ups of period shirts.
>
> There are no costume books that don't need to be reviewed with caveats in
> mind.  I did not mean to imply that I thought Rural Pennsylvania Clothing
> should be the sole work consulted on the subject.
>
> For further reading, if you go to the "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" page
for
> which I provided a URL, you'll find a link to a list of other useful books
on
> the clothing of that period compiled by Kass McGann:  here's a direct link
to
> that list:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/H3MDQ2DPOH39/ref=cm_lm_lists/102-6262009-3792905
>
> > Of course, the Dover book is
> > presenting basic clothing of the New England area. Another resource is
> > "Tidings from the 18th Century".  Back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s, my
> > first book was "American Costume 1650-1799 by Estelle Worrell. it was OK
as
> > a thumbnail reference, but way too simple for today's scholarship.
>
> I've never heard of Worrell's book, and I started reading about historic
> costume in the late 1970s-early 1980s.  I wonder how I missed that one!
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue
> that counts."--Winston Churchill
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hi kathleen its pippa
thank,s for the information about the crinoline pattern,s,i mainly make stage 
TV[Television] and theatre dresses and crinoline,s all of which are 
inflatable, as i have been developing the modern crinoline for fashion houses for over 
20 year,s andthe modern version of the tradition victorian period crinoline 
dresses have been a great success ,and looks like going off the scale in the 
near future,with other countrys wanting us to open stores and publicise the 
inflatable dress.
we do have an extensive stock of patterns but this particular gown,i cannot 
find , any working pattern,s ,but what you have suggested has been of help and 
thank you for taking the time to get back to me on it.
the actual wedding of this lady is in may of this year, and she wants the 
whole bang, big inflatable crinolines for the bridesmaids ,plus her wedding 
dress, horses carriages the lot,, and the biggest problem i have got will be 
finding a period open top cariage for her,horses are not a problem, well take care 
of yourself
Pippa
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:10:47 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s
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At 08:47 28/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>hi kathleen its pippa
>thank,s for the information about the crinoline pattern,s,i mainly make stage
>TV[Television] and theatre dresses and crinoline,s all of which are
>inflatable, as i have been developing the modern crinoline for fashion 
>houses for over
>20 year,s andthe modern version of the tradition victorian period crinoline
>dresses have been a great success ,and looks like going off the scale in the
>near future,with other countrys wanting us to open stores and publicise the
>inflatable dress.
>we do have an extensive stock of patterns but this particular gown,i cannot
>find , any working pattern,s ,but what you have suggested has been of help 
>and
>thank you for taking the time to get back to me on it.
>the actual wedding of this lady is in may of this year, and she wants the
>whole bang, big inflatable crinolines for the bridesmaids ,plus her wedding
>dress, horses carriages the lot,, and the biggest problem i have got will be
>finding a period open top cariage for her,horses are not a problem, well 
>take care
>of yourself


It would be really interesting to see one of your dresses. Do you have a 
web site we can look at? I have heard of an inflatable cloak, but not an 
inflatable crinoline. I have a cartoon of an inflatable crinoline I think, 
from the English satirical magazine "Punch", which thought crinolines were 
not a good idea!!

Suzi


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	<IDEHICPIJOEBPADHEOGPAEEJDKAA.otsisto@socket.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:17:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" <chiara@io.com>
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Played with my art program a bit and did some manipulations on
texture and such.

It definitley looks like a fan. The texture it produced was pretty
nice. :)


otsisto said:
> I am include to agree with the idea that the object on the right is
> a knife
> in a sheath.
> The "trident" to the left which is not a trident, note the base is
> split
> with a dot could be a maker's mark. The heart reminds me of the top
> to a
> pouch but the fold in the fabric seems to negate this possibility.
> So my
> next guess would be a fancy drinking cup/travelers cup. I do not
> think it is
> a fan as it looks to small to be one.
>
> De
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:29:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian hairdo tutorial?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Check out Tara's http://www.costumes.org   There's a lot of good links through there.  Perhaps contact the ladies at www.trulyvictorian.com as well ?
 
Chris

Ingrid G. Storrø <ingridgs@techarea.net> wrote:
Hi, all! Since haridos and headgear are important parts of an overall
look, I'm hoping this won't be considered off-topic. :)

The background: I'm going to an event this summer (a LARP, actually, but
the Norwegian kind which I gather is somewhat different from the
American) which aims to be as historically correctly costumed as it is
possible to get people to do for a one-off event. I plan to have a
pretty strong focus on authenticity, but because of the part I'm playing
(the rich but tasteless brothel owner) I'm going to incorporate some
Hollywoodism as well. 

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't 
matter and those who matter don't mind.
          Dr. Seuss
 
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, 
but in rising up every time we fail. 
Ralph Waldo Emerson




		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s
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Did you do the Red Queen and White Queen for the TV production of Alice
Through the Looking Glass? I am beginning to get the idea of what your work
might look like..I think.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <KV59213@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s


> hi kathleen its pippa
> thank,s for the information about the crinoline pattern,s,i mainly make
stage
> TV[Television] and theatre dresses and crinoline,s all of which are
> inflatable, as i have been developing the modern crinoline for fashion
houses for over
> 20 year,s andthe modern version of the tradition victorian period
crinoline
> dresses have been a great success ,and looks like going off the scale in
the
> near future,with other countrys wanting us to open stores and publicise
the
> inflatable dress.
> we do have an extensive stock of patterns but this particular gown,i
cannot
> find , any working pattern,s ,but what you have suggested has been of help
and
> thank you for taking the time to get back to me on it.
> the actual wedding of this lady is in may of this year, and she wants the
> whole bang, big inflatable crinolines for the bridesmaids ,plus her
wedding
> dress, horses carriages the lot,, and the biggest problem i have got will
be
> finding a period open top cariage for her,horses are not a problem, well
take care
> of yourself
> Pippa
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:44:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Teddy wrote:

> Since Robin came up with pretty much the same thing, I think it must
> be one of these "deperate costumer" things.....<g>

Heh. I learned some version of it from my mother, when I was a child. She
was a graphic artist, and I used the trick for years for tasks like
pasteup, drawing, lettering, etc. I'm showing it to my kids, now, to help
them make tidy projects when they have to glue things in straight lines.
(You put a piece of grid paper or lined paper beneath the one you're
gluing on, so you can use the lines as reference when you glue.)

Another tip: Most light-box substitutes require a piece of glass. If you
don't need a huge surface, go to the cheapest drugstore and get the
cheapest picture frame you can find that comes with glass. Throw away the 
frame. ;-)

Also: Put masking tape or electrical tape around the edges of your glass,
so you don't cut yourself in handling, and so it doesn't make nasty
scratches on your nice table.

--Robin

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] dresses and computers
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I am seeing a lot of messages like the one below from Pippa. Pippa, are
these meant for the list, or for individuals who have contacted you
directly?

It would be less confusing for the rest of us if you sent individual
responses only to those people you are speaking with, not to the list
address.

Thanks.

--Robin

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 KV59213@aol.com wrote:

> hi bob, if you are looking for inflatable dresses and fashion wear email me,
> but if you are into retro computers, or d i y computer parts and building 
> contact steve on this email addressed to steve
> Pippa

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hi Kathleen, no i did not do that one, but i did an american version of this, 
when alice crawled through the white rabbits burrow, and alice fell down the 
shaft, and her dress inflated like a parachute,which was a tricky one, because 
we had to have a special valve fitted to the dress where it would blow up 
instantly like a parachute, that was difficult ,so we had to get a grand prix 
engineering compnay who my husband worked for to make it,along with all his moans 
and groan,s [typical Man], but he would not have thought twice if it was a 
flipping engine part for the cars.
we did a massive inflatable crinoline some years ago now for a drama, for a 
witch, where the dress was really hard with air, and the witch killer had to 
shoot arrow,s into her dress and as the dress deflated, the witch deflated and 
melted,,that was difficult to get the pressure right and to stop the arrow,s 
sailing through the dress into the girl inside, but we cured that with a  thick 
leather panel hung inside the air chamber of the dress
Pippa
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At 7:37 AM -0700 1/28/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>  > Have you ever seen pvc coated taffeta?  I'm not sure it even exists.
>I
>>  work with pvc fabric a lot, but none of it resembles taffeta at all.
>
>It'll be out there *somewhere*.  If they do pvc coated children's
>patchwork prints I'm sure they *must* do taffeta.  I think the printed

On one of the cable shows theyu had a do-it yer self solution--iron 
on or stick on PVC to make your own fabric. I know I saw the plastic 
stuff at JoAnns near the wash away  embroidery stuff..

Ta
Carol
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While I'm agreeing that the two clearer objects do look to me like a fan 
and a belt end, respectively, I'm also wondering (and going out on a 
huge limb, here):
Could the items be his saint's items? You know, the items often depicted 
with saints, that act as clues to which saint the painting or statue 
refers to?
--sue

Cynthia Virtue wrote:

> Hmmmm.
> 
> The strap suggests either the end of a belt (rest of the belt under the 
> rope belt) or just a random strap for something which St. P attached to 
> his rope belt to have handy.
> 
> The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why St. P 
> would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.
> 
> I'd like to hear other people's theories.
> 

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Robin Netherton wrote:
> Another tip: Most light-box substitutes require a piece of glass. If you
> don't need a huge surface, go to the cheapest drugstore and get the
> cheapest picture frame you can find that comes with glass. Throw away the 
> frame. ;-)

Or you can get acrylic or plexiglas sheets from the hardware store. 
Then you can throw them around without worry.

I use such stuff for doing "fake stained glass" so I don't need to worry 
about the kids grabbing it and breaking it -- or husbands who aren't 
paying attention and wander into walls....

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:PVC coated cloth....
From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
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Not PVC, but fashionfabricsclub.com once in a while has waterproofed silks
from raincoat manufacturers.
Lauren

> At 7:37 AM -0700 1/28/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>>> Have you ever seen pvc coated taffeta?  I'm not sure it even exists.
>> I
>>> work with pvc fabric a lot, but none of it resembles taffeta at all.
>> 
>> It'll be out there *somewhere*.  If they do pvc coated children's
>> patchwork prints I'm sure they *must* do taffeta.  I think the printed
> 

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian hairdo tutorial?
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I've spent quite a while trying to search for how to recreate hairstyles
from 1865. The two best sources I've found are:

http://demode.tweedlebop.com/vic_hair.html

And the book _Victorian & Edwardian Beauty: Hairstyles and Beauty
Preparations_ by Daniela Turudich. Unfortunately Amazon doesn't seem to
carry it. I found it in a local independent bookstore a year or so. It
is a reprint of two different period how-to guides (spaced about 20
years apart) aimed at hairdressers. Therefore, it's a little difficult
to follow -- there aren't any step-by-step pictures, it's mostly written
text next to a picture showing the finished product. But it's better
then nothing.

If you're willing to go with something from a slightly different time
frame, these sites might help:

http://www.geocities.com/motozulli/Hairbasics.html

http://www.shootingstarhistory.com/hairstyles.html (no instructions,
just pictures)

Once upon a time I found a lovely site with how-to pictures for 1910
hairstyles but I cannot find it again...
	-sunny


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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At 14:05 28/01/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi, all! Since haridos and headgear are important parts of an overall
>look, I'm hoping this won't be considered off-topic. :)
>
>The background: I'm going to an event this summer (a LARP, actually, but
>the Norwegian kind which I gather is somewhat different from the
>American) which aims to be as historically correctly costumed as it is
>possible to get people to do for a one-off event. I plan to have a
>pretty strong focus on authenticity, but because of the part I'm playing
>(the rich but tasteless brothel owner) I'm going to incorporate some
>Hollywoodism as well. This means things like maybe eveningwear and
>decolletage during the day, and preferably some really flambuoyant hair.
>Which, as I don't plan to cut a fringe/bangs for this one week, probably
>means that I need to be stuck in the 1870's hairwise. Something I don't
>really know how to do, although I know there will have to be major
>amounts of fake hairpieces involved!
>
>I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for books or maybe online articles
>that deal with the actual doing-up of 1870's and 1880's hairstyles? I've
>found some articles about hair_care_, but I don't seem to be able to
>find anything that can teach me how to put it up correctly. I'll
>probably be able to scrape by anyhow, but a guide would help a lot.


  I don't know if these pages are of any help to you.

http://intimelyfashion.com/index2.html

Suzi
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Subject: [h-cost] Mardi Gras/ Carnival
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Carnival, or Fasnacht (I may very easily have spelled this wrong),  is very
big in parts of Switzerland, particularly Basel where my boyfriend comes
from.  There are also a lot of wonderful carnival artifacts, paintings,
prints etc. in Basel museums, the earliest being Medieval.  If you would
like more information, I can look through my books sometime this weekend and
also
try to describe what happens every year.  I end up watching various parts of
it on the internet every year.  I hope this helps!
Alexia

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Subject: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
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    Thanks all for your input. A few comments:

Prick and pounce method: I may yet have to resort to this time-proven but
time-consuming method for this project, simply because of the scope and
delicacy.

Lightboard: The garment pieces are too large to effectively be able to use a
lightboard of any type, even the diningroom table idea (which is brilliant,
btw). And, unfortunately, my loft/studio is not under renovation as yet, and
so the lightboard table (8'x4') has not yet been manufactured by my husband.
We're hoping for some time this year, but we all know about the plans of
mice and wo/men. :-)

Vilene: I have been warned by Bjarne this product leaves the fabric very
stiff after washing. I will do a test piece when my order arrives.

graphite paper: This was suggested to me by Bjarne and I will do an
experiment with it also when my order arrives. I'll also make a mylar master
of the design while I'm at it.

    While I have done projects of this scope before, I've never had a
problem with dressmaker's carbon rubbing off on the fabric. Of course, I've
never worked with such light wool/silk twill before, and I suspect because
of the very slight, almost invisible, nap there is to the fabric there is
enough abrasion there to cause the carbon paper to transfer.

    I've waited a long time to make this frock coat for myself. A few more
weeks won't hurt, despite my impatience.

    Again, my thanks to all.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:08:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian hairdo tutorial?
From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" <chiara@io.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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I am not sure how much this will help you but I once found a
victorian doll pattern that include how to do the hair styles. I
typed them up and scanned the drawings and put them online. Now this
is really old and I do not know if it really does apply but it is a
step by step how to do the hair. I have tried it on my hair and my
daughter's and it does work. Insert all sorts of disclaimer here for
whatever. Here is the url.

http://www.glove.org/costume/hair/

Ingrid G. Storrø said:
> Hi, all! Since haridos and headgear are important parts of an
> overall
> look, I'm hoping this won't be considered off-topic. :)
>
> The background: I'm going to an event this summer (a LARP, actually,
> but
> the Norwegian kind which I gather is somewhat different from the
> American) which aims to be as historically correctly costumed as it
> is
> possible to get people to do for a one-off event. I plan to have a
> pretty strong focus on authenticity, but because of the part I'm
> playing
> (the rich but tasteless brothel owner) I'm going to incorporate some
> Hollywoodism as well. This means things like maybe eveningwear and
> decolletage during the day, and preferably some really flambuoyant
> hair.
> Which, as I don't plan to cut a fringe/bangs for this one week,
> probably
> means that I need to be stuck in the 1870's hairwise. Something I
> don't
> really know how to do, although I know there will have to be major
> amounts of fake hairpieces involved!
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for books or maybe online
> articles
> that deal with the actual doing-up of 1870's and 1880's hairstyles?
> I've
> found some articles about hair_care_, but I don't seem to be able to
> find anything that can teach me how to put it up correctly. I'll
> probably be able to scrape by anyhow, but a guide would help a lot.
>
> Any hints are very welcome! :)
>
> Ingrid
>
> --
> This email has been scanned for viruses & spam by Decna as -
> www.decna.no
> Denne e-posten er sjekket for virus & spam av Decna as -
> www.decna.no
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] inflatable alice in wonderland dress
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> dear  mandy, yes i can help with that,we have plenty of patterns here for 
> that type of inflatable dress,if you get back to me with the  measurements in 
> time i will get lucy do start, yes pvc is ideal for this one

I refer you to the "Alice in WonderBra" website - Google will have it.
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the alice in wonderland dress is really nice, but its not totally 
inflatable,it has a co,2 filled balloon stuck underneath.
for the dress to be totally inflatable, it would have to be made of pvc or 
someother airtight material, and the actual dress itself would have to have a 
valve on it and the dress would have to be filled with air then have the stopper 
put back in to stop the dress deflating again


Sara Atkins
PFI
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Subject: [h-cost] Bradfield book
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Status: RO

I seem to have come up with yet one more book of "Costume in Detail". Except for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this book by Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there.  I do not recall anyone on H-Costume ever mentioning it since I joined the list in the early '90's.  So, trying to gain a copy of Costume Up Close, I seem to have garnered this new edition of the Bradfield.  Wow.  Sure wish I had found this 20 years ago when I was trying to translate 2D pics into 3D costumes. My only consolation  now is to discover that my pattern shapes conformed to the original designs necessary to attempt reconstructions.  And the wealth for assessories like hats and shoes and gloves... I did discover Arnold fairly early on, and ended up trying to grid my needs based on her method.  Sort of a "point in aria" approach.

The Dress in Detail that I was enthusiastically referring to earlier in January is by Rosemary Crill, Jennifer Wearden and Verity Wilson. (It finally rejoined my library from Boston)  Once again, like Fashion in Detail, the authors present fabrics, constructions, fastenings and such form various cultures around the globe. Within a Culture, it is interesting to observe that Necessity is (really) the Mother of Invention! How to take the commonplace and create Art.

Kathleen
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] alice in wonderbra dress
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     I saw a few inflatable costumes at Halloween last year.  The neckline
& cuffs were not airtight, but they had fans built into the costume
that continually blew air into them.  i suppose the fan noise might
not work for stage use, but they did not need a valve to stop them
deflating.

     -Carol


> the alice in wonderland dress is really nice, but its not totally
> inflatable,it has a co,2 filled balloon stuck underneath.
> for the dress to be totally inflatable, it would have to be made of pvc or
> someother airtight material, and the actual dress itself would have to
> have a valve on it and the dress would have to be filled with air then
> have the stopper put back in to stop the dress deflating again
>
>
> Sara Atkins
> PFI

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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
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I have it to and I love it.  It's a wonderful book!!!  I found my copy on e-bay.  I couldn't afford Janet Arnold at the time and I 'settled' for this only to be happily amazed with it.
 
Chris

Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
I seem to have come up with yet one more book of "Costume in Detail". Except for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this book by Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there. I do not recall anyone on H-Costume ever mentioning it since I joined the list in the early '90's. So, trying to gain a copy of Costume Up Close, I seem to have garnered this new edition of the Bradfield. Wow. Sure wish I had found this 20 years ago when I was trying to translate 2D pics into 3D costumes. My only consolation now is to discover that my pattern shapes conformed to the original designs necessary to attempt reconstructions. And the wealth for assessories like hats and shoes and gloves... I did discover Arnold fairly early on, and ended up trying to grid my needs based on her method. Sort of a "point in aria" approach.

The Dress in Detail that I was enthusiastically referring to earlier in January is by Rosemary Crill, Jennifer Wearden and Verity Wilson. (It finally rejoined my library from Boston) Once again, like Fashion in Detail, the authors present fabrics, constructions, fastenings and such form various cultures around the globe. Within a Culture, it is interesting to observe that Necessity is (really) the Mother of Invention! How to take the commonplace and create Art.

Kathleen
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
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Hello, all --
 
Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different problem I hope some of you may have dealt with.  I'm designing a ribbon embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to make it look really rich.  The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver.  Now -- what would you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me to follow?  A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult.  I had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might distort the stit!
 ches if I
 embroider closely directly over it.  Any suggestions would be most welcome!  Bjarne, your work is always so lovely -- have you done anything like this on dark fabric?  Most of your work I've seen since I've joined this list has been on pastels, but I would love to emulate your elegant work.
 
Thank you in advance for your advice --
KP


 

		
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At Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:52:33 -0500, "Five Rivers" <lgsteph@wightman.ca> wrote:

Maybe you're looking at this from the wrong, I mean right, side, Lorina? 
Would it be any help to transfer the design to the "wrong" (hidden) side of 
the fabric and work "upside down" -- or at least use that to do a quick 
running stitch around the edges of the design that you could either work 
over or unstitch at the end of everything?





Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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  Is Mardi Gras / Carnival celebrated in Canada and/or Central America?  


  It's celebrated in Mexico.  I don't think it's a big deal all over the country but the city of Merida, on the Yucatan Peninsula, has parades for several days.

  Janet
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sale on Wool Gabardine
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:31:57 -0500
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I'll thank Joan for posting to the list because I ordered some (2 different colors) and had to exert willpower to avoid buying more things.

Janet
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From: "Joanna" <joanna.hobbins@gmail.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Mardi Gras / Carnival
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:54:43 -0500
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Yes and No.

In Quebec the Mardi Gras festival turned into Carnaval, a celebration of -40
degree weather, caribou (the alcohol)and ceinture flêchée.  It takes place
in early february regardless of Easter.

Cheers,

Joanna
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of JAMES OGILVIE
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:28 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Mardi Gras / Carnival



  Is Mardi Gras / Carnival celebrated in Canada and/or Central America?  

  Janet
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
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At 12:15 28/01/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I have it to and I love it.  It's a wonderful book!!!  I found my copy on 
>e-bay.  I couldn't afford Janet Arnold at the time and I 'settled' for 
>this only to be happily amazed with it.
>
>Chris
>
>Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
>I seem to have come up with yet one more book of "Costume in Detail".

I have been fortunate to use this book for over twenty years. It is so full 
of interest. I only wish she, or someone, had done the same for men's 
costume, 'cos if there is one out there, I haven't found it. I have the 
Avril Hart/Susan North "Fashion in Detail" and am expecting two more 
"detail" books ("Costume in Detail and another) in the spring, carried by a 
friend from the States, but one purely on men's costume, nowhere!

Suzi


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> Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different problem I hope some of you may have dealt with.  I'm designing a ribbon embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to make it look really rich.  The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver.  Now -- what would you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me to follow?  A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult.  I had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might distort the st!
 itches if I
>  embroider closely directly over it.  Any suggestions would be most welcome!

I had responded to this on one of the other lists that she posted
the query on.  I've stitched both on black velvet and satin this way.
I took a pieve of muslin and transfered the design to that -- then I
basted the muslin to the *wrong* side of the fabric and then just
embroidered from the back.  I'm in the middle of The Very *un*Period
Celtic Design on a set of italian sleeves in floss and metallic thread.
The muslin is so lightweight that I have not found it to be a problem.

Jerusha
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:52:50 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
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>for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this book by 
>Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there.

The first edition has some color photos of a few of the costumes, and the 
second edition has more costume drawings instead.

Check the drawings of the same dresses as Nancy Bradfield drew them and as 
and Janet Arnold did - the proportions are slightly different!  Bradfield 
has more dresses but Arnold has patterns.  I have both.

Bradfield did another book of drawings, covering from periods from which no 
garments survive to the 1960s, and the re-drawings aren't as accurate.  I 
had one of these and sold it.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: "Anne Moeller" <ladyanne@quik.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem
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I just KNEW there had to be a use for a glass topped table:)  Anne

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Teddy
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:23 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: RE: [h-cost] embroidery transfer problem


> Use a light 
> board isn't an option because the pieces are too large.

I never had a light board/box, but when I lived at home with my parents
I discovered that their glass-topped coffee table (large and round) with
a desk-lamp or bedside lamp underneath made a great super-sized
lightbox, a did my sister's glass-topped dining table.

Don't know if that's any help to you?

Teddy
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:44:09 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
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I would agree this looks like a knife.  The "holes" are where the seam 
of the scabbard is joined - either stitching or riveting holes, or 
possibly decoration on a brass edge strip.

Jean


Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net> wrote
>When I expanded the image, the object to the right of the heart shaped 
>object clearly looked (to me at least) like a small  knife in a sheath. 
>If you look closely you can see the handle protruding from the sheath. 
>This was a common object that everyone carried: religious, secular, 
>male and female..even older children.
>
>I have not a clue as to the heart shaped object partially behind the 
>knife, unless it is a small purse or pouch.
>
>Beth
>
>At 06:52 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
>>o the right of it is something else which i can't quite make out:
>>perhaps a thin leather(?) strap, looped in a half-hitch around the belt at the
>>top and ending in a series of regularly punched holes.
>
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] patterns for crinoline,s
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I would also LOVE to see these inflatable clothes.  Anne



It would be really interesting to see one of your dresses. Do you have a 
web site we can look at? I have heard of an inflatable cloak, but not an 
inflatable crinoline. I have a cartoon of an inflatable crinoline I think, 
from the English satirical magazine "Punch", which thought crinolines were 
not a good idea!!

Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book 
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Bradfield's book is incredible - I used to use it at my local library, then 
saw a copy of the first ed. (with the photos) on a friend's stall at the 
re-enactors market in Oxford, and snapped it up on the spot!  



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> Would it be any help to transfer the design to the "wrong" (hidden) side
of
> the fabric and work "upside down" -- or at least use that to do a quick
> running stitch around the edges of the design that you could either work
> over or unstitch at the end of everything?

    Would it were that easy, Brenda. :-) That thought had also occurred to
me, but I had to quickly dismiss it. The design is very complex and I'm
afraid by the time I outlined everything I might as well have embroidered
the whole thing. But thanks for thinking of me.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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In a message dated 1/28/2005 6:37:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
Debloughcostumes@aol.com writes:

Bradfield's book is incredible - I used to use it at my local library,  then 
saw a copy of the first ed. (with the photos) on a friend's stall at  the 
re-enactors market in Oxford, and snapped it up on the spot!   




First ed has photos?  I need to look for it.  Second ed has more  garments in 
an appendix.
 
Ann Wass
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From: "Five Rivers" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: embroidery transfer problem
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Dear Kathryn,

    Given you're working on velveteen, if this were my work I'd transfer the
design either with a white dressmaker's carbon or white graphite paper. The
nap on velveteen, in my experience, is short enough to take the transfer
provided you're not working with a very intricate or complex design. (Like
my own dilemma at the moment.)

    You could also quite successfully do a prick and pounce method on this
and then draw in the design using a thin acrylic wash in yellow or white.
Again, depends on how complex and intricate the design is.

    And yet another method would be to use a tear-away stabilizer if you're
going to be using mostly fill stitches such as satin, stem or split.

    Just a word of caution, Kathryn: if you're working on velvet or
velveteen I urge you to frame the project in a scroll bar frame, and edge
your fabric first with a twill tape. I think you'll find a hoop will tend to
crush the pile to the point it will show the hoop marks, perhaps
permanently.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of  historical sewing patterns,
quality hand-crafted cooperage, fine art, embroidery supplies
(519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org  email: info@5rivers.org


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Five Rivers wrote:

> 
>     Would it were that easy, Brenda. :-) That thought had also occurred to
> me, but I had to quickly dismiss it. The design is very complex and I'm
> afraid by the time I outlined everything I might as well have embroidered
> the whole thing. But thanks for thinking of me.


What I've done with complex embroidery onto velvet and heavy wool is to 
make a template, kind of like you would for stencilling, and use chalk 
to transfer part of the design at a time. I suppose that is similar to 
pouncing, except that since the chalk rubs off easily with handling, and 
there may be large areas to transfer, I can repeatedly apply the 
template to refresh my chalk lines as needed, or to apply lines to 
as-yet unmarked areas. I cut 1/8" lines in my template material, which 
allows me to place it over work I've already done and line it up 
accurately. It takes some time to cut the template out, but it makes it 
much easier to re-use. I draw the chalk likes with the thin side of 
tailor's chalk, the kind that comes in squares.



Dawn


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Bjarne,

If you were closer to "New" Jersey I would come over and help you with all that 'Hanyman' stuff in exchange for a new outfit (circa 1530 England) I'll even supply the fabric!

I love working with tools, and fixing cars, and carpentry...

Did I tell you I'm female?? My SO is the Cook, Maid and Chief Bottle-Washer of the house.

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> Hi,
I can tell you that in this house we have no handyman anywhere. In our bathroom, i have hangers wich are sticked to the wall. When it breaks and fall down, a new one comes up. I have a small wall cabinet i buyed from Ikea 5 years ago, wich still is in its box. I dont dare to pack it up because i know i have to use a driller to fix it.
> So it still is waiting for a handyman. The lack of a handy man is to be seen every where in the house i can tell you.Me and Leif are not Handymen.........
> 
> Bjarne

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The one time I clearly recall doing extensive embroidery on a napped
fabric (mine was corduroy), what I did was mark the *back* of the fabric
with my intended design (you'd have to watch it with letters, though!). 
  I think I used a fabric pencil. I then transferred the design elements 
to the front with a basting thread.  Hope that makes sense!
--sue

Kathryn Parke wrote:

> Hello, all --
> 
  Now -- what would you recommend as the best way
> to transfer the font to the velveteen for me to follow?  A lightboard
> won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and the nap would
> make a transfer pencil difficult.  I had thought of transferring the
> names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering over that,
> OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the cloth
> (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the
> stabilizer might distort the stit! ches if I embroider closely
> directly over it.  Any suggestions would be most welcome!

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At 03:14 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>Message: 11
>Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:52:50 -0800
>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20050128134736.0249cce0@mail.frys.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
> >for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this book by
> >Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there.
>
>The first edition has some color photos of a few of the costumes, and the
>second edition has more costume drawings instead.
>
>Check the drawings of the same dresses as Nancy Bradfield drew them and as
>and Janet Arnold did - the proportions are slightly different!  Bradfield
>has more dresses but Arnold has patterns.  I have both.
>
>Bradfield did another book of drawings, covering from periods from which no
>garments survive to the 1960s, and the re-drawings aren't as accurate.  I
>had one of these and sold it.

I've had a first edition of the Bradfield book for years and years, and 
it's just about my single favorite costume book of all time. I knew there 
was a second edition, but I didn't know they'd added material to the book!! 
What time period are the costumes that were added?

And I agree on Bradfield's other books, they are nowhere near the quality 
of Costume In Detail. It's a pity, because Costume In Detail is such a 
remarkable resource.

Julie

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book 
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>Bradfield's book is incredible - I used to use it at my local library, then
>saw a copy of the first ed. (with the photos) on a friend's stall at the
>re-enactors market in Oxford, and snapped it up on the spot!

I used to use a first edition at a college library, then  found a second 
edition, many years later, in Sydney, Australia.  This was about 3 hours 
before I got on the plane for home, so I grabbed it quick.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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>I've had a first edition of the Bradfield book for years and years, and 
>it's just about my single favorite costume book of all time. I knew there 
>was a second edition, but I didn't know they'd added material to the 
>book!! What time period are the costumes that were added?

In the second edition she added a Regency dress, with mitts and bonnet, a 
1912-ish dress, and an article about women riding bicycles.  She removed 
the color pictures to make room for these.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:04:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
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Hi.
Get a plastic folder and prick the design, then mix some water and flour together, put the plastic folder on the fabric and paint with the flourmixture so the it goes through the tiny holes, the design will show as small whitish dots, that can be gently scratched away.
Works wonders on velvet and all dark coloured embroidery backgrounds.
Tania
Denmark

Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello, all --

Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different problem I hope some of you may have dealt with. I'm designing a ribbon embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to make it look really rich. The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver. Now -- what would you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me to follow? A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult. I had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might distort the stit!
ches if I
embroider closely directly over it. Any suggestions would be most welcome! Bjarne, your work is always so lovely -- have you done anything like this on dark fabric? Most of your work I've seen since I've joined this list has been on pastels, but I would love to emulate your elegant work.

Thank you in advance for your advice --
KP





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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
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I forgot to mention to let it dry, these little dots won't go off as easily as chalk, so you do not necessarily have to do anything else to connect the dots
Tania

Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi.
Get a plastic folder and prick the design, then mix some water and flour together, put the plastic folder on the fabric and paint with the flourmixture so the it goes through the tiny holes, the design will show as small whitish dots, that can be gently scratched away.
Works wonders on velvet and all dark coloured embroidery backgrounds.
Tania
Denmark

Kathryn Parke wrote:
Hello, all --

Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different problem I hope some of you may have dealt with. I'm designing a ribbon embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to make it look really rich. The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver. Now -- what would you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me to follow? A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult. I had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might distort the stit!
ches if I
embroider closely directly over it. Any suggestions would be most welcome! Bjarne, your work is always so lovely -- have you done anything like this on dark fabric? Most of your work I've seen since I've joined this list has been on pastels, but I would love to emulate your elegant work.

Thank you in advance for your advice --
KP





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In a message dated 1/28/2005 8:46:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
Kiloran@worldnet.att.net writes:

I knew  there 
was a second edition, but I didn't know they'd added material to the  book!! 
What time period are the costumes that were  added?



Two early 19th century dresses with a Quaker provenance; an 1810s wedding  
pelisse, and a 1910s evening dress.
Since early 19th c. is my period, I especially like the 2 early 19th c.  
bibfront gowns.
 
Ann Wass
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One of the visitors to my website has asked if I know of any "medieval 
shops where they have medieval-like clothing in the UK."

I figure with such fine re-enactment companies over there, you must have 
some good sources as well as making things yourself.  Any pointers would 
be much appreciated, and I'll forward them onward.

Thanks,
cv
-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval suppliers in the UK?
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At 06:34 29/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>One of the visitors to my website has asked if I know of any "medieval 
>shops where they have medieval-like clothing in the UK."
>
>I figure with such fine re-enactment companies over there, you must have 
>some good sources as well as making things yourself.  Any pointers would 
>be much appreciated, and I'll forward them onward.


No, as far as I know there are no "shops where they have medieval-like 
clothing" unless your visitor means "Goth", which case I cannot help. You 
could send them to me, as I custom make clothing of all periods up to 1900, 
or you could send them to www.livinghistory.co.uk which is a re-enactors' 
forum where they will get lots of advice. Teddy might be able to help too.

Suzi

www.suziclarke.co.uk


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Suzi Clarke wrote:

> No, as far as I know there are no "shops where they have medieval-like 
> clothing"

I don't know if he meant brick-and-mortar store, or somewhat virtual 
store or home business.  I'll send him to that forum, and your website, 
thanks!  (I hadn't looked at your website before - lovely stuff!)

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
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Hi Kathryn,
I have used tear away paper for one ribbon projekt where my fabric was dark 
blue.
You must be very very carefull when you tear off the paper, but it actually 
is ok to do it.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/setasilkpaint.htm
Use a tweezer to help grapping the paper, and also your fine scissors to 
help to get the paper off.
I have realised that this fine paper, dont destroy your scissors like other 
papers do, so it must be based on same chemicals as fabrics has. This is 
what i found out because i baught a sharp scissor especially for this, but i 
discovered that it was just as sharp for cutting threads after i had used it 
on this paper.

Bjarne



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathryn Parke" <kjp1685@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem


> Hello, all --
>
> Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different 
> problem I hope some of you may have dealt with.  I'm designing a ribbon 
> embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm 
> doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black 
> velveteen, to make it look really rich.  The flowers, of course, are free 
> form (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), 
> but the names will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver. 
>  Now -- what would you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to 
> the velveteen for me to follow?  A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is 
> too dense and dark, and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult.  I 
> had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and 
> either embroidering over that, OR doing that and then doing a running 
> stitch to mark it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I 
> guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might distort the stit!
> ches if I
> embroider closely directly over it.  Any suggestions would be most 
> welcome!  Bjarne, your work is always so lovely -- have you done anything 
> like this on dark fabric?  Most of your work I've seen since I've joined 
> this list has been on pastels, but I would love to emulate your elegant 
> work.
>
> Thank you in advance for your advice --
> KP
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
> _______________________________________________
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> 


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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20050128201536.12289.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:24:25 -0500
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Mine just came from Alibris for $24. after a slight delay.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book


> I have it to and I love it.  It's a wonderful book!!!  I found my copy on
e-bay.  I couldn't afford Janet Arnold at the time and I 'settled' for this
only to be happily amazed with it.
>
> Chris
>
> Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
> I seem to have come up with yet one more book of "Costume in Detail".
Except for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this
book by Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there.
I do not recall anyone on H-Costume ever mentioning it since I joined the
list in the early '90's. So, trying to gain a copy of Costume Up Close, I
seem to have garnered this new edition of the Bradfield. Wow. Sure wish I
had found this 20 years ago when I was trying to translate 2D pics into 3D
costumes. My only consolation now is to discover that my pattern shapes
conformed to the original designs necessary to attempt reconstructions. And
the wealth for assessories like hats and shoes and gloves... I did discover
Arnold fairly early on, and ended up trying to grid my needs based on her
method. Sort of a "point in aria" approach.
>
> The Dress in Detail that I was enthusiastically referring to earlier in
January is by Rosemary Crill, Jennifer Wearden and Verity Wilson. (It
finally rejoined my library from Boston) Once again, like Fashion in Detail,
the authors present fabrics, constructions, fastenings and such form various
cultures around the globe. Within a Culture, it is interesting to observe
that Necessity is (really) the Mother of Invention! How to take the
commonplace and create Art.
>
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ---------------------------------
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	<5.1.0.14.2.20050128215608.0149b778@127.0.0.1>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:29:22 -0500
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I had the same thought yesterday as I was cracking the cover.  I kept
thinking that she was going to add a page here and there on men's wear.
Sigh
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book


> At 12:15 28/01/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I have it to and I love it.  It's a wonderful book!!!  I found my copy on
> >e-bay.  I couldn't afford Janet Arnold at the time and I 'settled' for
> >this only to be happily amazed with it.
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
> >I seem to have come up with yet one more book of "Costume in Detail".
>
> I have been fortunate to use this book for over twenty years. It is so
full
> of interest. I only wish she, or someone, had done the same for men's
> costume, 'cos if there is one out there, I haven't found it. I have the
> Avril Hart/Susan North "Fashion in Detail" and am expecting two more
> "detail" books ("Costume in Detail and another) in the spring, carried by
a
> friend from the States, but one purely on men's costume, nowhere!
>
> Suzi
>
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Jan 29 08:36:06 2005
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200501282235.j0SMZGL3085492@sabre.goldsword.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:36:05 -0500
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OK.  So how does this embroidery from the back work? Most stitches will look
different from the worked side.  Is it a matter of piercing (pricking?) from
underneath by sight and laying the true pattern on the top?
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem


> > Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different
problem I hope some of you may have dealt with.  I'm designing a ribbon
embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing
her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to
make it look really rich.  The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I
hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names
will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver.  Now -- what would
you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me
to follow?  A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark,
and the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult.  I had thought of
transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering
over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the
cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the
stabilizer might distort the st!
>  itches if I
> >  embroider closely directly over it.  Any suggestions would be most
welcome!
>
> I had responded to this on one of the other lists that she posted
> the query on.  I've stitched both on black velvet and satin this way.
> I took a pieve of muslin and transfered the design to that -- then I
> basted the muslin to the *wrong* side of the fabric and then just
> embroidered from the back.  I'm in the middle of The Very *un*Period
> Celtic Design on a set of italian sleeves in floss and metallic thread.
> The muslin is so lightweight that I have not found it to be a problem.
>
> Jerusha
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:43:18 -0500
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I did notice that the drawings are not particularly in true proportions,
especially the skirts.  This is not a problem. As sketches from her studies
are so copiously annotated, this little detail can be overlooked.  This new
edition has a nice article on the Bloomer origins as well as several
drawings from another later publication.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book


>
> >for "Fashion in Detail" (Hart and North), I was unaware that this book by
> >Nancy Bradfield dealing with the period of 1730-1930 was out there.
>
> The first edition has some color photos of a few of the costumes, and the
> second edition has more costume drawings instead.
>
> Check the drawings of the same dresses as Nancy Bradfield drew them and as
> and Janet Arnold did - the proportions are slightly different!  Bradfield
> has more dresses but Arnold has patterns.  I have both.
>
> Bradfield did another book of drawings, covering from periods from which
no
> garments survive to the 1960s, and the re-drawings aren't as accurate.  I
> had one of these and sold it.
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>           www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
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>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
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>
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Now this method sounds like a go to me.  I hate to cut stencils, but being
able to 'mark and sew' a little a time and to be able to check on placement
as the work progresses would make the original stencil exercise well worth
the trouble.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: embroidery transfer problem


> Five Rivers wrote:
>
> >
> >     Would it were that easy, Brenda. :-) That thought had also occurred
to
> > me, but I had to quickly dismiss it. The design is very complex and I'm
> > afraid by the time I outlined everything I might as well have
embroidered
> > the whole thing. But thanks for thinking of me.
>
>
> What I've done with complex embroidery onto velvet and heavy wool is to
> make a template, kind of like you would for stencilling, and use chalk
> to transfer part of the design at a time. I suppose that is similar to
> pouncing, except that since the chalk rubs off easily with handling, and
> there may be large areas to transfer, I can repeatedly apply the
> template to refresh my chalk lines as needed, or to apply lines to
> as-yet unmarked areas. I cut 1/8" lines in my template material, which
> allows me to place it over work I've already done and line it up
> accurately. It takes some time to cut the template out, but it makes it
> much easier to re-use. I draw the chalk likes with the thin side of
> tailor's chalk, the kind that comes in squares.
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:53:17 -0500
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Status: RO

This method would surely be quicker than a true stencil, I think.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tania Gruning" <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem


> Hi.
> Get a plastic folder and prick the design, then mix some water and flour
together, put the plastic folder on the fabric and paint with the
flourmixture so the it goes through the tiny holes, the design will show as
small whitish dots, that can be gently scratched away.
> Works wonders on velvet and all dark coloured embroidery backgrounds.
> Tania
> Denmark
>
> Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello, all --
>
> Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a somewhat different
problem I hope some of you may have dealt with. I'm designing a ribbon
embroidery memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married, and I'm doing
her and her fiance's name, surrounded by flowers, on black velveteen, to
make it look really rich. The flowers, of course, are free form (and, I
hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this kind of work!), but the names
will be embroidered in a beautiful non-metallic silver. Now -- what would
you recommend as the best way to transfer the font to the velveteen for me
to follow? A lightboard won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and
the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult. I had thought of
transferring the names to a tear-away stabilizer, and either embroidering
over that, OR doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark it on the
cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread, I guess), as I'm nervous that the
stabilizer might distort the stit!
> ches if I
> embroider closely directly over it. Any suggestions would be most welcome!
Bjarne, your work is always so lovely -- have you done anything like this on
dark fabric? Most of your work I've seen since I've joined this list has
been on pastels, but I would love to emulate your elegant work.
>
> Thank you in advance for your advice --
> KP
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:00:13 -0500
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Do you suppose that there was an additional hand doing the drawings for this
section? They are so markedly different from the earlier sketches.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AnnBWass@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book


>
> In a message dated 1/28/2005 8:46:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Kiloran@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> I knew  there
> was a second edition, but I didn't know they'd added material to the
book!!
> What time period are the costumes that were  added?
>
>
>
> Two early 19th century dresses with a Quaker provenance; an 1810s wedding
> pelisse, and a 1910s evening dress.
> Since early 19th c. is my period, I especially like the 2 early 19th c.
> bibfront gowns.
>
> Ann Wass
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we are now about to start  makuing some prototype,s of 1950,s inflatable rock 
and roll skirt,s but we are wondering where we can getfabric backed pvc of 
the sort that is used in making fake leather jackets, or similar material,but 
not upholstery vinyl
sara
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
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At 8:13 AM -0700 1/28/05, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>While I'm agreeing that the two clearer objects do look to me like a 
>fan and a belt end, respectively, I'm also wondering (and going out 
>on a huge limb, here):
>Could the items be his saint's items? You know, the items often 
>depicted with saints, that act as clues to which saint the painting 
>or statue refers to?

Not this time -- St. Peter's "diagnostic fashion accessories" are his keys.

I may have told this story before on this list, but one of the best 
little classes I ever took was one titled "Field Guide to the 
Saints." The class description ended with "Violence, adult themes" 
<g> since she was showing some of the more gruesome martyrdom 
legends. (St. Laurence being barbecued, for instance.)

The teacher and her husband had made slides of dozens of medieval and 
Renaissance paintings of saints, each shown with his or her 
identifying "attribute" (St. Barbara is often shown with a tower, St. 
Catherine with a wheel, etc.)

The most fun was the "pop quiz" at the end, with images we hadn't 
seen before of some of the same saints. The competition was fierce to 
be the first to call out "Saint Lucy!" or "Saint John!"

-- 
____________________________________________________________

O    Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>  -   Davis, California
+     http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ingrid_G=2E_Storr=F8?= <ingridgs@techarea.net>,
        Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian hairdo tutorial?
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I have a book I publish on hairstyles 1850-1920, with illustrations and
articles from period sources.

I also do custom research.  If you wish I could gather just the
1870-1880's info. for you.  I have a book planned on just that era but
it has not been started yet.  How soon would you need it?  I have many
illustrations from the 1870's available.  Are you interested in hats
too?

I am working on 1830's hair currently as I am heading to Vienna on
Thursday to dance for a week, and have to do my hair, which is over a
meter long, in an 1830's style.

Katy

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Ingrid G. Storrø wrote:

>Hi, all! Since haridos and headgear are important parts of an overall
>look, I'm hoping this won't be considered off-topic. :)
>
>The background: I'm going to an event this summer (a LARP, actually, but
>the Norwegian kind which I gather is somewhat different from the
>American) which aims to be as historically correctly costumed as it is
>possible to get people to do for a one-off event. I plan to have a
>pretty strong focus on authenticity, but because of the part I'm playing
>(the rich but tasteless brothel owner) I'm going to incorporate some
>Hollywoodism as well. This means things like maybe eveningwear and
>decolletage during the day, and preferably some really flambuoyant hair.
>Which, as I don't plan to cut a fringe/bangs for this one week, probably
>means that I need to be stuck in the 1870's hairwise. Something I don't
>really know how to do, although I know there will have to be major
>amounts of fake hairpieces involved!
>
>I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for books or maybe online articles
>that deal with the actual doing-up of 1870's and 1880's hairstyles? I've
>found some articles about hair_care_, but I don't seem to be able to
>find anything that can teach me how to put it up correctly. I'll
>probably be able to scrape by anyhow, but a guide would help a lot.
>
>Any hints are very welcome! :)
>
>Ingrid
>
>--
>This email has been scanned for viruses & spam by Decna as - www.decna.no
>Denne e-posten er sjekket for virus & spam av Decna as - www.decna.no
>
>_______________________________________________
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Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.




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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] materials suppliers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:12:01 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I buy mine wholesale from Sommers.  I think it is sommers.com

Sylrog

On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:15 AM, KV59213@aol.com wrote:

> we are now about to start  makuing some prototype,s of 1950,s 
> inflatable rock
> and roll skirt,s but we are wondering where we can getfabric backed 
> pvc of
> the sort that is used in making fake leather jackets, or similar 
> material,but
> not upholstery vinyl
> sara
> _______________________________________________
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> In a message dated 1/28/2005 6:37:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
> Debloughcostumes@aol.com writes:
>
> Bradfield's book is incredible - I used to use it at my local library,  then 
> saw a copy of the first ed. (with the photos) on a friend's stall at  the 
> re-enactors market in Oxford, and snapped it up on the spot!   

My email has been flaky of late -- I think I missed the first post on this
subject.  Which Bradfield book?  I know of one that is a general survey
of English Clothing with gorgeous line drawings of each reign, but this
sounds like a different book.

Susan
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From: Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

No, Jerusha, you're confusing me with someone else --
I've never posted this inquiry before.  What is the
other list you're speaking of?  Is it an
embroider/needleworker's list?  I'd love to know more
about it, if so!

And a huge THANK YOU to everyone for the ideas you've
supplied -- what a great list this is!

KP


--- Susan Farmer <sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com> wrote:

> > Forgive me for hijacking this post, but I have a
> somewhat different problem I hope some of you may
> have dealt with.  I'm designing a ribbon embroidery
> memento for one of my "kids" who's getting married,
> and I'm doing her and her fiance's name, surrounded
> by flowers, on black velveteen, to make it look
> really rich.  The flowers, of course, are free form
> (and, I hope, successful, as I'm fairly new to this
> kind of work!), but the names will be embroidered in
> a beautiful non-metallic silver.  Now -- what would
> you recommend as the best way to transfer the font
> to the velveteen for me to follow?  A lightboard
> won't work, as the fabric is too dense and dark, and
> the nap would make a transfer pencil difficult.  I
> had thought of transferring the names to a tear-away
> stabilizer, and either embroidering over that, OR
> doing that and then doing a running stitch to mark
> it on the cloth (sort of like pouncing with thread,
> I guess), as I'm nervous that the stabilizer might
> distort the st!
>  itches if I
> >  embroider closely directly over it.  Any
> suggestions would be most welcome!
> 
> I had responded to this on one of the other lists
> that she posted
> the query on.  I've stitched both on black velvet
> and satin this way.
> I took a pieve of muslin and transfered the design
> to that -- then I
> basted the muslin to the *wrong* side of the fabric
> and then just
> embroidered from the back.  I'm in the middle of The
> Very *un*Period
> Celtic Design on a set of italian sleeves in floss
> and metallic thread.
> The muslin is so lightweight that I have not found
> it to be a problem.
> 
> Jerusha
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>
> OK.  So how does this embroidery from the back work? Most stitches will look
> different from the worked side.  Is it a matter of piercing (pricking?) from
> underneath by sight and laying the true pattern on the top?

That's what I do.  You're "stitching from the back" because that's where
your design is -- but you stitch it from the front normally.

JErusha
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:01:12 -0500
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I think that it was I who brought the book Costume in Detail 1730-1930 up
for discussion.  It was first published  ( I believe) in the early 1960s.
My new soft cover copy is 1998  edition.  What is the official title of the
one related to 'reigns'?

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bradfield book


> > In a message dated 1/28/2005 6:37:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > Debloughcostumes@aol.com writes:
> >
> > Bradfield's book is incredible - I used to use it at my local library,
then
> > saw a copy of the first ed. (with the photos) on a friend's stall at
the
> > re-enactors market in Oxford, and snapped it up on the spot!
>
> My email has been flaky of late -- I think I missed the first post on this
> subject.  Which Bradfield book?  I know of one that is a general survey
> of English Clothing with gorgeous line drawings of each reign, but this
> sounds like a different book.
>
> Susan
> _______________________________________________
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>
> I think that it was I who brought the book Costume in Detail 1730-1930 up
> for discussion.  It was first published  ( I believe) in the early 1960s.
> My new soft cover copy is 1998  edition.  What is the official title of the
> one related to 'reigns'?

Historical Costumes of England 1066-1968.

Jerusha
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>
> No, Jerusha, you're confusing me with someone else --
> I've never posted this inquiry before.  What is the
> other list you're speaking of?  Is it an
> embroider/needleworker's list?  I'd love to know more
> about it, if so!
>
> And a huge THANK YOU to everyone for the ideas you've
> supplied -- what a great list this is!

I think it beadsandbroiders at yahoo.  If you go to the
yahoo groups and look for embroidery or needlework and
SCA there will be quite a few things come up.  For those
who aren't familiar with the SCA -- it's an historical
reenactment group concentrating on pre1700 Europe.
There are about 17 or 18 kingdoms now in the world, and
most of them have their own embroidery/needlework list.

I have close to 20 lists in my address book -- and I don't
have things like blackwork listed -- mostly because I have
too many lists as it is!  :-S

If you want, email me off list, and I'll give you more information.

Jerusha
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At Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:36:05 -050, Kathleen ("Lloyd Mitchell" 
<rmitchell@washjeff.edu>) wrote:

>OK.  So how does this embroidery from the back work? Most stitches will 
>look different from the worked side.  Is it a matter of piercing 
>(pricking?) from underneath by sight and laying the true pattern on the top?

If I understand you properly, yes. Hold the work wrong-side towards you so 
you can see the markings. Make the stitches below/away from you (on the 
right side of the fabric), using the markings to tell where to bring the 
needle up and down through the fabric.



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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My book _Reconstruction Era Fashions: 350 Sewing, Needlwork, and 
Millinery Patterns 1867-1868_ includes a number of step-by step 
instructions for creating hairstyles.  Volume 2 of my book _Fashions of 
the Gilded Age_ includes a substantial section on 1877-1882 hairstyles, 
and also hair ornaments and millinery. 

You are right about the "additional" hair, most styles for both periods 
require it.

Fran Grimble
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com


>Katy
>
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Ingrid G. Storrø wrote:
>  
>

<snip>

>  
>
>>Which, as I don't plan to cut a fringe/bangs for this one week, probably
>>means that I need to be stuck in the 1870's hairwise. Something I don't
>>really know how to do, although I know there will have to be major
>>amounts of fake hairpieces involved!
>>
>>I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for books or maybe online articles
>>that deal with the actual doing-up of 1870's and 1880's hairstyles? I've
>>found some articles about hair_care_, but I don't seem to be able to
>>find anything that can teach me how to put it up correctly. 
>>
>  
>
<snip>
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there is one very good source of information on historic costume,s and more 
modern stuff to, in the knowledge book  magazine,s that were published in the 
early and middle sixtie,s 
these were supplanted by the new knowledge book,s int he early 70,s
some libraie,s do havr copies of them and they are well worth a good read, 
showing all aspects of costume throut the ages
pippa
Phillipas Fashion Inflatables
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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Well, after two weeks I've lost track of just how many dollar stores, 
import shops, beauty supply, and thrift stores I've been in looking for 
one of these things... but I found one today. It's tortiseshell plastic 
but it would work.... if I had less hair. Sigh. Maybe when I'm grey and 
starting to go bald the early 80's punk look will be back in style. :)

Thanks for all the help, folks,


Dawn


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Dawn wrote:

> but I found one today.

Yaay! Does it have a technical term/name on it?

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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Cynthia Virtue wrote:

> Dawn wrote:
> 
>> but I found one today.
> 
> 
> Yaay! Does it have a technical term/name on it?
> 

There is no product name on the card it was attached to but the shelf 
tag said 'cylinder ponytail holder' -- a search term which gets me 
nothing from Google. (And after spending 4 hours with a professional 
librarian Monday, I am pretty sure nobody online sells them by any name).

I'm thinking now I might be able to put some hair in a couple of little 
rat-tail braids and thin out the bulk that goes up on top.



Dawn


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I passed this query to Bob Charrette, who has done some study on pencases
and other personal accessories though from a slightly later period (mostly
14th c.). He said this:

---------- Forwarded message ----------

> http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/nazareth/bagatti/colfigs/bagatti-pl43-4.jpg
> 

right hand object looks very much like a knife sheath, many went almost to
the top of the handle.  I doubt it's a pencase as I have yet to see on
that curves at the bottom and has a top that fits with the out edges like
a knife handle in a sheath does.  The apparenent stitching along one edge
is also consistant with certain knife sheaths, though not so far as I know
in in ones from my favorite century.

   Left hand object is a mystery.

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 80's hair device
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Dawn wrote:

> There is no product name on the card it was attached to but the shelf
> tag said 'cylinder ponytail holder' -- a search term which gets me
> nothing from Google. (And after spending 4 hours with a professional
> librarian Monday, I am pretty sure nobody online sells them by any
> name).

There are some claw-clips out there that might have the same effect, of
creating a tube shape, though perhaps a bit shorter. Try this:

http://mp.hairboutique.com/product.asp?ProdID=105218&CtgID=

Am most amused to see it called "tort colored."

--Robin


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<6.2.0.14.0.20050129164631.0529bb70@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:38:23 -0500
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Thank you very much!  I have never tried this method; I have just avoided
working on piled fabrics unless the design was freehand. So, another new
window to open!
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brenda Bell" <webwarren@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re:embroidery transfer problem


> At Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:36:05 -050, Kathleen ("Lloyd Mitchell"
> <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>) wrote:
>
> >OK.  So how does this embroidery from the back work? Most stitches will
> >look different from the worked side.  Is it a matter of piercing
> >(pricking?) from underneath by sight and laying the true pattern on the
top?
>
> If I understand you properly, yes. Hold the work wrong-side towards you so
> you can see the markings. Make the stitches below/away from you (on the
> right side of the fabric), using the markings to tell where to bring the
> needle up and down through the fabric.
>
>
>
> Brenda
> webwarren@earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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Maybe it's a special model for lawyers? <g>
--sue, who rather thinks it looks more like a piranha model than a 
goldfish, with those "teeth"....

Robin Netherton wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Dawn wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is no product name on the card it was attached to but the shelf
>>tag said 'cylinder ponytail holder' -- a search term which gets me
>>nothing from Google. (And after spending 4 hours with a professional
>>librarian Monday, I am pretty sure nobody online sells them by any
>>name).
> 
> 
> There are some claw-clips out there that might have the same effect, of
> creating a tube shape, though perhaps a bit shorter. Try this:
> 
> http://mp.hairboutique.com/product.asp?ProdID=105218&CtgID=
> 
> Am most amused to see it called "tort colored."

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Subject: [h-cost] alice in wonderland dresses
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can anyone help with a dress patterns of alices dress for a alice in 
wonderland dress please
i am making a inflatable pvc alice in wonderland dress and i dont have a 
pattern knocking about
pippa
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KV59213@aol.com wrote:
> can anyone help with a dress patterns of alices dress for a alice in 
> wonderland dress please
> i am making a inflatable pvc alice in wonderland dress and i dont have a 
> pattern knocking about


	There is a child's pattern: Butterick 4600 
<http://store.sewingtoday.com/cat/itm_img/B4600.jpg> that has a classic 
Alice dress. You might just browse the pattern catalogs under 'costume' 
to see if there are others. I think Simplicity may have one or two.

	-Judy Mitchell
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dear judy, thank,s for the information, normally for our big inflatable 
crinoline dresses we have no problem, but i have never made an adult alice in 
wonderland dress, the nearest i have to that is a german childs dress pattern of 
1845 with a large skirt.
making inflatable dresses is ten times easier than an actual ordinary dress, 
and with the inflatable one you get so many extra benefits as well. take care
Pippa
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's mystery accessories
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The object on the right looks like a knife in its sheath.  The knife is a 
utilitarian, single-bladed knife of the type used as a pen-knife or eating 
knife, something routinely carried by just about everyone in period.  The 
sheath is the right shape for that type of knife as well.
The other object is shaped sort of like a fan, but it's more 
three-dimensional.  Maybe a pomander?
                -Helen/Aidan 


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Hi,
	I'm know this is off-topic (ok, the ultimate reasons are for historic 
costuming), but could someone help me translate something in Swedish? 
I'm planning a trip in March, and I really need to know what a webpage says.
	Thank you so much.

	-Judy Mitchell
	now returning you to regular historic sewing
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http://lexikon.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/swe-eng
http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box

Will this help?

Judy Mitchell wrote:

> Hi,
>     I'm know this is off-topic (ok, the ultimate reasons are for 
> historic costuming), but could someone help me translate something in 
> Swedish? I'm planning a trip in March, and I really need to know what 
> a webpage says.
>     Thank you so much.
>
>     -Judy Mitchell
>     now returning you to regular historic sewing
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Deredere Galbraith wrote:
> http://lexikon.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/swe-eng
> http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box
> 
> Will this help?

	A little bit, yes. Thank you. I'll keep it on file for other websites 
that I can't puzzle through.

	-Judy Mitchell
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Subject: Re:  Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's mystery accessories
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Several list members have suggested that the pendant article to the left of 
(what most folk here consider to be a knife sheath) might be a fan or a 
pomander, but this is what's striking me about it:  it's roughly the shape 
of the stylized pomegranate that was a motif through several centuries' 
(and cultures') textile decoration. I keep wanting to say "palm" instead of 
"pomegranate" (I guess it *is* palm-shaped and would fit in St. Peter's 
palm), and I seem to recall something about palmiers or palms or something 
related to pilgrims and Crusaders...

There are some indentations like beads or markers between the main "heart" 
shape and the periphery of the object. If one speculates that they continue 
around where the object is hidden behind the "knife", there would be 20 
such markers, 15 of which are partially or completely visible -- if there 
is any symbology to that.  (If the number were seven or twenty-four or 
thirty, I might consider it a portable clock or calendar mnemonic device... 
then again, when DID time start getting divided into two sets of twelve hours?)

Other questions:  What would a coin purse of the time look like (and would 
it be worn that way)? Could it be some sort of portable reliquary for some 
very small *something*? Could it be analogous to a shaman's medicine pouch? 
Is there some hagiographic marker that distinguishes the apostolic saints 
(should that be capitalized, btw?) from all other saints?

The other thing that the (knife sheath) recalled to me was that somewhere 
along the way, members of some religious orders took to inflicting physical 
pain upon themselves, either by self-flagellation in private or by wearing 
some sort of pain-producing device under their robes (or both). Could 
either of these items be related to that practice? The idea of these items 
being normally "hidden" comes to me because the relief is not as dramatic 
or proportional as it is in the robes themselves. Of course, I'm probably 
reading WAY too much into that and the real reason is either that they were 
added in as afterthoughts, or that they were added in some time after the 
statue was originally completed....



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re:  Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's mystery accessories
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Brenda Bell wrote:

> I keep wanting to say "palm" instead of "pomegranate" (I guess it *is*
> palm-shaped and would fit in St. Peter's palm), and I seem to recall
> something about palmiers or palms or something related to pilgrims and
> Crusaders...

Point of information: Pilgrims to the Holy Land were called palmers for
the symbol of a palm branch or palm leaves -- so not palms of hands.
(Though Shakespeare made a nice pun on that in "Romeo and Juliet.")

--Robin

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From: "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:PVC coated cloth....
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:22:16 +1100
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Would the rubbery coating on the back of curtains work for your purpose?
because I'm sure somebody has made taffeta curtains and probably sells it
pre-coated (probably not silk but if you're coating it with plastic then
natural fibres probably aren't your first priority).
Elizabeth
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lauren Walker" <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:PVC coated cloth....


> Not PVC, but fashionfabricsclub.com once in a while has waterproofed silks
> from raincoat manufacturers.
> Lauren
>
> > At 7:37 AM -0700 1/28/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
> >>> Have you ever seen pvc coated taffeta?  I'm not sure it even exists.
> >> I
> >>> work with pvc fabric a lot, but none of it resembles taffeta at all.
> >>
> >> It'll be out there *somewhere*.  If they do pvc coated children's
> >> patchwork prints I'm sure they *must* do taffeta.  I think the printed
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: visual patterning
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pierre & Sandy Pettinger" <costumrs@radiks.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: visual patterning


> Stephen,
>
> My husband's grandmother could do that, too.  There are family stories of
> how she made her 3 daughter's wedding dresses - since they couldn't afford
> to buy one in the store, she would look at dresses in the stores and in
> magazines, then make up whichever one they wanted from the picture.
<snip>

I know, I'm replying to another old post but anyway.
Like musical ability and the ability to mentally translate 2D patterns into
3D objects this is something that can be achieved with a little bit of skill
and lot of practice
After a few years of looking at 16th century portraits and trying to convert
that look into something I can wear I have a little bit of that ability
within the areas I'm familiar with. I couldn't make up a flat pattern from
looking at a picture (everything above the bustline just goes wonky when I
try to flat pattern draft and I've never tried to draft something with
darts) but I can work from a picture and drape a pattern to match the look.
Because I have a sort of stock of basic pattern shapes (from extant garments
or other people's theories) in my head from about the 15th century to the
mid 19th century (with one or two gaps where I haven't been interested
enough in the look to actually pay attention or things that are all drapery
like Houpellandes) I can usually work out where the seams belong and the
picture itself will tell me things like neckline waistline, sleeves etc. It
may take a couple of drafts but it tends to work itself out. Just don't ask
me to work out how draperies work, I can do fitted bits but things like the
c.1880s draperies just look like masses of folds and I don't know how they
get there (if I tried draperies it would probably be blind trial and error).
Ever since I got my dressmakers dummy about 6 months ago I've been
trying out bodice styles on it when I'm bored but I only have 16th century
undergarments so I just pin fabric for other eras into roughly the right
shape and never actually cut it coz that would be a waste of fabric when the
base is the wrong shape, but a Tudor corset is close enough to an 18th
century corset to look OK under an 18th century dress and the dummy itself
is close enough to look bearable in 19th century.
Admittedly I haven't really challenged myself with an unfamiliar style and I
usually do double check my resources (I often am looking at books like
Patterns of Fashion when I am inspired to try that style out) to make sure I
haven't misremembered details (I certainly wouldn't cut my good fabric
without checking against the sources). So in short I can translate a picture
into a garment but only because I spend a lot of time looking at patterns
and I have enough spatial ability to understand how they fit together to
make a garment.
Please tell me I'm not alone in this?
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole@iimetro.com.au

Mr. Speaker, I said the honourable member was a liar it is true and I am
sorry for it. The honourable member may place the punctuation where he
pleases.
Richard Brinsley Sheridan (1751-1816) British dramatist. On being asked to
apologise for calling a fellow MP a liar. Attrib.

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hello yes i think that pvc coated material is fine, yes you are right that 
backing actually is pvc on curtain material such as taffetta, and that is what i 
am looking for ,for mu inflatable crinoline dresses,especially my inflatable  
crinoline wedding dresses, thank you Pippa
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Subject: [h-cost] Sorta-medieval silliness...
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Greetings--

Some of you may remember my counterchanged heraldic hockey surcote from a
couple of years back.  In honour of this lockout season in the National
Hockey League, I added some additional accessories for this year's Twelfth
Night celebrations....

http://members.tripod.com/nicolaa5/articles/hockey.html

Susan

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That is very silly. I like it! 8-)



Karen
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] St. Peter's Mystery Accessories
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> The heart-shaped thing suggests either mirror or fan.  No idea why St. P
> would have a mirror, but it's too small for a fan.
>
> I'd like to hear other people's theories.

I don't know about the other things, but to me this heart-shaped thing could
be one of those little pewter (or lead, at the time) bottles they used to
carry water from special springs. The ones I've seen had that heart shape,
and iirc they were sealed shut.
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Oh, that's TOO perfect!
But how do you keep your surcote from fighting itself?   <ggg>
Michelle (a Wings fan in Michigan)
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America 1783-1800
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Thanks for the info

On Friday 28 January 2005 8:42 am, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:
> She did the American Costume in two volumes, bringing them up to the
> Twentieth century.  Also a nice doll house book and 11" cloth fashion doll
> with costume patterns for about three centuries of fashion..Believe it or
> not, I found some of the pattern shapes useful for people constructions.  A
> bit primitive I admit, but there wasn't a lot out there when I began doing
> stage costume in 1965.  Another book by Worrell that I still use as a
> pictoral reference and style description is her Children's Fashions volume.
>
> Kathleen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dover book sale-Everyday Dress of Rural America
> 1783-1800

[you said, among other things:]

> > > Of course, the Dover book is
> > > presenting basic clothing of the New England area. Another resource is
> > > "Tidings from the 18th Century".  Back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s,
> > > my first book was "American Costume 1650-1799 by Estelle Worrell. it
> > > was OK as a thumbnail reference, but way too simple for today's
> > > scholarship. 
> >
> > I've never heard of Worrell's book, and I started reading about historic
> > costume in the late 1970s-early 1980s.  I wonder how I missed that one!

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue 
that counts."--Winston Churchill
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From: Lena Strid <lstrid@mglarc.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: anyone help translate a webpage in Swedish?
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What webpage is it? E-mail me privately if you want to (work is slow
today...).

/Lena

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Mitchell [mailto:judymitch@oldwaylane.net] 
Sent: 30 January 2005 19:48
To: h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] OT: anyone help translate a webpage in Swedish?

Hi,
	I'm know this is off-topic (ok, the ultimate reasons are for
historic 
costuming), but could someone help me translate something in Swedish? 
I'm planning a trip in March, and I really need to know what a webpage says.
	Thank you so much.

	-Judy Mitchell
	now returning you to regular historic sewing
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Mediaeval isn't my period, but one of the multi=period Reenactors'
Markets might be a good place to start. The next one is in early March.
http://www.reenactorsmarket.co.uk/home.htm 



Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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At 09:30 31/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Mediaeval isn't my period, but one of the multi=period Reenactors'
>Markets might be a good place to start. The next one is in early March.
>http://www.reenactorsmarket.co.uk/home.htm


Or try the National Living History Fayre in February.
http://www.livinghistoryfayres.com/

Suzi


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In a message dated 1/31/05 9:38:58 AM GMT Standard Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

> [h-cost] Medieval suppliers in the UK?
> 
Sorry - must have missed the original message.  (since I therefore don't know 
which bit of medieval you're looking for info on, or whereabouts you are, 
I'll give you all I can think of!!)

Medieval is one of my periods (well, 2 really - 12th and 15th).

Anyway, as one of the suppliers (costume) at the re-enactor's market in 
Coventry in March, I can confirm that it's the 11, 12 and 13 of March.  There's 
also The Templar's Fayre at Cressing Temple Barns in Essex in May, which only 
covers Roman to Medieval.  Many of the C15th suppliers at Tewkesbury Medieval 
Fayre in July cover the whole Medieval period.
There's another multi period fayre in Coventry, for which I don't have the 
details.  There's also a market (multi again) in pudsey, in Leeds (usually the 
first Saturday in October, but tbc).  There are also various smaller markets at 
events through the year, but the bigger ones are now tending to drown these 
out a bit.

I'd recommend getting a copy of Call to Arms (they have a website), as it 
lists most suppliers in the UK for most periods (although it could be considered 
a bit pricey).  

It's also worth dropping in at www.livinghistory.co.uk, a forum which has 
lots of adverts (as well as lots of participants who are medievalists of one type 
or another.  (The fayre I don't have the details of has a banner advert 
there).  


Debs. (Conquest & Gloucester's).
Mail me off list if any of the above doesn't make sense - sorry had to work 
all night (again)!.
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
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>
>Medieval is one of my periods (well, 2 really - 12th and 15th).
>
>Anyway, as one of the suppliers (costume) at the re-enactor's market in
>Coventry in March, I can confirm that it's the 11, 12 and 13 of 
>March.  There's
>also The Templar's Fayre at Cressing Temple Barns in Essex in May, which only
>covers Roman to Medieval.  Many of the C15th suppliers at Tewkesbury Medieval
>Fayre in July cover the whole Medieval period.
>There's another multi period fayre in Coventry, for which I don't have the
>details.  There's also a market (multi again) in pudsey, in Leeds (usually 
>the
>first Saturday in October, but tbc).  There are also various smaller 
>markets at
>events through the year, but the bigger ones are now tending to drown these
>out a bit.
>
>I'd recommend getting a copy of Call to Arms (they have a website), as it
>lists most suppliers in the UK for most periods (although it could be 
>considered
>a bit pricey).
>
>It's also worth dropping in at www.livinghistory.co.uk, a forum which has
>lots of adverts (as well as lots of participants who are medievalists of 
>one type
>or another.  (The fayre I don't have the details of has a banner advert
>there).

Not all costume makers in the U.K. are traders. Many of us don't go to 
fairs to sell - we're too busy making!! However, a very good directory for 
all costume related supplies, including shops, fabrics, accessories, 
makers, events etc is "The 
Garter",  http://www.createthemood.uklinux.net/Garter.htm

Suzi


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And of course there is Colchester Oyster Fayre, a comparatively small scale 
market in the Roman town of Colchester, in the castle grounds. If it 
doesn't rain, as it did last year, that is well worth a visit.

http://www.oysterfayre.flyer.co.uk/

Suzi


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Subject: [h-cost] forward: request for wedding dresses
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I will not be able to fit this into my schedule this spring, so I am 
forwarding the message on in hopes that one of you might be willing to 
do the work for this young lady:

The pictures she sent me will be temporarily on my web site at:

http://www.reddawn.net/temp/d8_1_b.jpeg
http://www.reddawn.net/temp/red.jpg

Dawn


-----------------------------
From:	Lpnmsmith@aol.com

Hello. My name is Marianne Smith and I am looking for someone to make my 
  wedding dress and the dresses of my wedding party. (another for my 
maid of  honor, my brides maid, and for each of my two daughters - 5 
total.) My wedding  is for June or July of 2006 and no one makes the 
type of dress I want in the  bridal stores. Attached you will see 
examples of what I am looking for as  I  want a medieval wedding.

  If you can help me would you send an estimate of total costs for the 
work? My address is 7227 N. Richards St. Portland, Or 97203   503-289-1862.

Sizes are as follows. Bride 22 -24
                                 Maid  of honor - 12 - 14
                                 brides  maid 8 -10
                                 daughters  8 kids. and 14 kids. (they 
are 7 and 9 yrs. old)

Thank you for your time.  Marianne Smith

-----------------------------
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Status: RO

Here's an article on a new HBO series on Rome. Quoted first is the 
costume specific bit but I included the whole article for those 
interested in how history is filtered and shaped by film:

"The attention to detail on set is impressive. When the script called 
for thousands of gold coins stamped with Caesar’s head, props master 
Arthur Wicks (with the aid of “a little man in the Vatican”) made 
thousands of replica gold coins stamped with the head of Ciaran Hinds, 
the actor playing Caesar. The show’s superb costumes, made by April 
Ferry, are not the traditional Hollyrome gauzy white or pastel style 
based on Alma-Tadema’s paintings, but rougher, heavier, redder, and made 
only from materials the Romans would have used - wool, silk and cotton."




-----------------------
A blow to the temples
By David Winner
Financial Times
Published: January 28 2005 16:22 |
Last updated: January 28 2005 16:22
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/95ca7faa-702f-11d9-b572-00000e2511c8,ft_acl=,s01=1.html 



When the film director Ridley Scott was making Gladiator, he hired 
Kathleen Coleman, head of classics at Harvard, as the film’s official 
historical consultant. During the production her advice was ignored and, 
eventually, “deeply disillusioned by the final product, which makes 
virtually no attempt to represent an authentic Roman past” (as she put 
it on a website for classicists), she asked for her name to be taken off 
the credits.

Coleman was appalled by Hollywood methods. One message from the 
production office said: “Kathy, we need to get a piece of evidence which 
proves that women gladiators had sharpened razor blades attached to 
their nipples. Could you have it by lunchtime?”

In a recent book about Gladiator, she wrote an essay called “The Pedant 
Goes to Hollywood”, in which she noted that “scholars are, of course, 
notorious for being obsessed with detail - but detail is the repository 
of authenticity.”

Gladiator, released in 2000, grossed $457m worldwide and created a 
spectacular revival in the Roman epic genre - one that had been around 
since the beginning of cinema. The first filmed version of Ben-Hur was 
shot at a New York beach in 1907. Like most early Roman epics, it drew 
its story and look from the neo-classical movement: novels and plays, 
and paintings by the likes of Lawrence Alma-Tadema.

In his book The Phantom Empire, Geoffrey O’Brien explains how, as the 
film industry developed, Italian and American directors influenced each 
other to create what became the standard, mythical view of the period: 
“It was,” he writes, “as close as movies got to a cultural lineage, this 
process of spirals within spirals by which you got the myth (the real, 
original Italian epics, Cabiria and Quo Vadis and The Fall of Troy, that 
took America by storm in 1914) and the myth of the myth (the improved 
and homogenised American epics, Intolerance and Ben-Hur and The Queen of 
Sheba, which in turn found their way back to Italian screens) and then, 
beyond computing, the myths of the myths of the myths, as each 
photographed the others’ photographs.”

Across the genre, down the decades, the look for temples, togas and 
centurions became standardised. In the late 1950s, cheap “peplums” (a 
derisive term from the Latin for a ruffle attached to the waist of a 
tunic) cheerfully recycled the same sets, props and actors in film after 
film, sometimes even using the same shots. But the epics overreached 
themselves - and were all but killed off in the early 1960s, by the 
excesses of Cleopatra and The Fall of the Roman Empire (whose Forum, 
built outside Madrid, was four times the size of the original in Rome).

Gladiator’s success changed all that, and now it feels as if the epics 
have never been away - though the failure of Troy, and the potentially 
larger failure of Alexander, may produce another climate change soon. 
For the moment, though, they and all other recent film representations 
of antiquity stand in Ridley Scott’s shadow. Yet, as Coleman’s anger 
reveals, the most interesting aspect of Gladiator may prove to be - when 
it is itself ancient history - the dispute surrounding its lack of 
historical authenticity.

Scott is a brilliant visual stylist, and his film is a masterpiece, but 
he played fast and loose with history, trumping previous versions of the 
tale by wielding myths-of-myths-of-myths with much the same panache as 
his gladiator hero Maximus used a sword. The key sources were not 
ancient Roman texts but more modern fantasies. He first had the idea for 
the film when he saw a picture painted in 1872 by the French artist 
Jean-Leon Gerome. The picture, “Pollice Verso” (Thumbs Down), shows a 
gladiator in the arena standing with his foot on the throat of a rival 
as the crowd urges him to kill. For his story, Scott drew heavily on The 
Fall of The Roman Empire, Spartacus and Ben-Hur. Most controversially, 
for the scene in which his tyrannical emperor Commodus enters Rome, 
Scott used a shot-for-shot pastiche of Leni Riefenstahl’s Nazi epic 
Triumph of the Will. When critics accused Scott of flirting with 
fascistic imagery himself, he responded that the Nazis had copied the 
Romans, “so you’ve got it the wrong way round”.

His cyber-generated Rome was also mostly pastiche, assembled from 
architectural photographs of neo-classical buildings in London, Maltese 
churches, a Napoleonic-era fort and other sources. When he was told that 
ancient Romans probably never had pavement cafes, Scott filmed a cafe 
scene anyway and declared: “This is the first coffee bar in Roman 
history.” In his commentary to the DVD of the film, he took issue even 
with the historical experts who had supported his film, the ones who 
said Gladiator had taken a few liberties but generally looked pretty 
good. “I’d say, ‘How do you know? You weren’t there.’ What we do is jump 
back in time into our own imaginations, and that is the most important 
thing to do. Historians say, ‘I’m not sure that they did that.’ And we 
say, ‘Well, they bloody well do now.’”

Close your eyes and picture ancient Rome. What do you see? Eagles, 
gladiators and white togas, no doubt. Hillsides covered with classical, 
ivory-coloured temples too, probably. Straight lines. Huge crowds. 
Forests of gleaming white marble columns and statues. A place glowing 
with what Olivier in Spartacus called “the might, the majesty, the 
terror of Rome”.

That’s the classic Hollywood view. Rome the pale, the pristine, the 
venerable is an image as old as film itself. And because we get our view 
of Rome primarily from the movies, the myth lies at the core of our 
sense of antiquity, of our sense of history, perhaps even of ourselves.

But what if it’s all completely wrong? At modern Rome’s fabled Cinecitta 
studios, the BBC and American TV giant HBO have joined forces to shoot 
an epic $100m television drama series that aims to topple the Hollywood 
image and set a new vision in its place.

Simply called Rome, the painstakingly researched show is shaping up as a 
vast, operatic, Grand Guignol drama. Its epic story will weave the lives 
of two ordinary Roman foot soldiers with historical celebrities such as 
Julius Caesar and Pompey in the last years of the Roman Republic. The 
show’s relatively unknown British stars - Kevin McKidd, Ciaran Hinds and 
Polly Walker - are likely to become household names.

In keeping with ancient Hollywood traditions, Rome will feature 
intrigue, spectacle and casual brutality. In a radical break with 
Hollywood traditions, though, it will also be jammed with cliche-busting 
surprises. There’ll be much more sex and paganism than we’re used to. 
We’ll see Julius Caesar as he really looked during his ceremonial 
triumphs (painted head to toe in Jupiter’s colour, red) and Cleopatra 
will not be a vamp or demi-goddess, but as Cicero saw her - a 
dinner-party bore.

HBO is putting up most of the money. The first 12 episodes are due to 
air late this year, and if all goes well a further four seasons are 
planned. So far, though, the show’s most spectacular feature is its 
jaw-dropping set, reckoned to be the biggest and most expensive ever 
built for television. On the backlot at Cinecitta, where Ben-Hur’s 
chariot race was filmed and where 500 slaves once dragged Liz Taylor 
into town atop a giant sphinx for Cleopatra, a spectacular new version 
of the ancient city has been built of steel and fibreglass. There’s a 
full-scale replica of the Forum, a warren of working-class streets, 
markets, villas and gardens.

It looks tremendous, but also weird, because this Rome is grubby rather 
than grandiose. Its temples don’t shimmer but are dirty and 
multicoloured. The set is smoky and covered with Latin graffiti, much of 
it obscene. On street corners there are candle-strewn shrines and 
drawings of giant penises. In one street there’s a typical Roman toilet: 
a latrine with planks with holes where men and women sit side by side 
and use the same fetid sponge as toilet paper. Grass grows between the 
flagstones on the Via Sacra. There’s mud everywhere.

Welcome to the new, realist, “authentic” Rome: feral, vivid, jumbled, 
irregular. “Third world Rome”, the show’s executives call it - a 
bracing, provocative antidote to a century of “Hollyrome”.

Production designer Joseph Bennett, who built the set, says: “People 
think of Rome as white and cold and beautiful, powerful but distant. But 
based on the research, I don’t think it was like that at all. If you go 
to Pompeii, you’re struck by how garish it is, even now. The temples and 
sculptures were all brightly painted. Rome was like Pompeii, but much 
bigger. And Rome was so noisy it was impossible to sleep. It was like 
hell. Think of it as a combination of New York and Calcutta, with insane 
wealth and insane poverty. It was pretty extreme.”

”We’ve taken everything from scratch,” says chief writer and executive 
producer Bruno Heller. “We are disregarding what people might have seen 
before, and asking: what was it actually like at this moment in history? 
We’re trying to deal with the lives of ordinary people, the details of 
routine, everyday life, of unemployment, of disease. And we are trying 
to be very precise in the historical moment, very precise about the 
texture of everyday life. Everything flows from that. The Forum was 
about as grand as it got, but it was not, by any means, stupendous or 
stupefying. Once you know that the Tiber flooded regularly and the 
houses were constantly on fire because they were just made of wood, you 
know that there were fires and floods constantly. It was always smoky, 
grimy and dirty.”

Every aspect of Rome’s scripts and production are backed up by detailed 
research, and historical consultant Jonathan Stamp is a key figure 
behind the scenes. As Jane Tranter, the BBC’s controller of drama 
commissioning, puts it: “Gladiator was marvellous entertainment, but we 
at the BBC are not going to give a huge amount of money to recreate a 
period of history and make something that is not based on any kind of 
truth. People want to unravel and discover things. And we want to be 
able to offer them that extra frisson of: ‘You know what? It all 
happened.’”

The production comes at a time that future generations may one day 
classify as a crucial juncture in western history. For the first time in 
hundreds of years, the west is losing direct contact with what it once 
considered its roots: with the “classics”, with Rome. Once a staple of 
academic life, ancient Greek has all but disappeared from schools, and 
Latin is heading the same way. Despite a slight revival following the 
popularity of Gladiator, ever fewer schools and universities teach the 
subject. And it’s not just happening in Britain. Direct knowledge of the 
texts and language of the classical past has sharply declined throughout 
Europe and America since the 1960s.

What we are left with is popular culture’s view of Rome. We have ancient 
Roman computer games (Rome: Total War, Gladiator - Sword of Vengeance), 
ancient Roman popular historical fiction and crime thrillers (Eagle in 
the Snow: General Maximus and Rome’s Last Stand; One Virgin Too Many). 
And, above all, we have the Roman fictions of the screen, a form so 
potent that Coleman says: “The Rome Hollywood created is now the only 
Rome that is universally familiar.”

If Hollywood’s Rome is wildly wrong, we might even be in trouble. “If 
you know nothing about Roman history you begin as if memory began this 
morning,” Stamp says. You can’t function morally if you don’t have a 
memory. You can’t function at all. The past is our collective memory. 
Without it we’re screwed.”

Imperial Britain, revolutionary France, the early US and the Nazis 
(among many others) all imagined themselves to represent a “new Rome”. 
For the neo-classicists of the 18th and 19th century, Rome meant 
nobility, wisdom, self-sacrifice, civic virtue and moral purity. Rome 
was the model to which the founding fathers of the US aspired: it was 
above them and would raise them up. America’s public buildings have 
columns, pediments and domes because they were modelled on the clean 
lines and assumed whiteness of Roman temples and the Pantheon.

By contrast, Hitler believed that “all that remained to remind men of 
the great epochs of history was their monumental architecture”. He 
ordered architect Albert Speer to create monumental Nazi structures that 
would look as good thousands of years after they were destroyed; as good 
as Roman ruins did. If he had won the war, Hitler planned to raze Berlin 
and build in its place a new, crushingly vast capital city consisting 
mainly of huge Roman-style buildings, some of them hundreds of times 
bigger than the originals.

Modern, imperial, consumerist America created yet another vision. 
Hollywood’s view of Rome as an empire of sex, sin and infinite 
consumption found architectural expression at Caesars Palace, Las Vegas. 
Certainly, it resembles no building ever produced in antiquity, but its 
vertiginous white marble towers, gold-topped columns and pediments, 
talking statues and opulent fountains faithfully reflect the spirit of 
Cleopatra. Jay Sarno, the flamboyant businessman who built the resort 
with a loan from the Teamsters’ pension fund, wanted to create a world 
of fantasy “fit for an emperor”, where every guest would feel like a 
Caesar or a Cleopatra. When the joint opened in 1966, its cocktail 
waitresses wore skimpy togas, there were chariot rides, pretty “slave 
girls for the personal needs” of important guests and, in the Circus 
Maximus theatre, Andy Williams performed a show called Rome Swings.

In a sense, each of these architectural fantasies was as plausible as 
the other. Each took an element of authentic, historical Rome and 
stretched it to distortion.

Diverse interpretations have flourished not only because Rome is the 
single most important culture in the development of Western 
civilisation, but also because the myth of Rome is uniquely flexible. 
Jonathan Stamp argues: “The best, most powerful myths are the ones that 
can stand for different things at different times. Rome remains our 
top-dog myth because it stood for completely different things. You can’t 
say the same thing about the Greeks. They were always eggheads no matter 
how you cut it.”

Stamp suggests that we see Rome as being split between its austere 
Republican phase and its opulent imperial period. “The republic stands 
for self-denial, closeness to the land, parsimony, asceticism.” At the 
other end of the spectrum, the legends of crazed, sensualist emperors 
spawned the porno Rome vision of a movie like Bob Guccione’s Caligula. 
And cinema has become the most potent purveyor of myth ever invented.

But do audiences care if filmed history is authentic? The legendary Las 
Vegas art critic Dave Hickey, who sees the themed casino resorts in his 
city as physical incarnations of Hollywood myths, thinks not. “It’s the 
illusion of authenticity that people like. They want things to feel 
authentic, but they really don’t care about the details.” He cites the 
case of the Luxor, the Ancient Egypt-style resort in Vegas that features 
exotic-looking Egyptian-style hieroglyphs. The feature attracted 
interest and the designer went on TV. “Hey, this isn’t just decoration,” 
he said. “These are real words. This stuff means stuff!”

An axiom of the BBC-HBO show is that its stuff means a lot more than 
stuff. Its stuff is, in fact, part of the essence of the project. The 
attention to detail on set is impressive. When the script called for 
thousands of gold coins stamped with Caesar’s head, props master Arthur 
Wicks (with the aid of “a little man in the Vatican”) made thousands of 
replica gold coins stamped with the head of Ciaran Hinds, the actor 
playing Caesar. The show’s superb costumes, made by April Ferry, are not 
the traditional Hollyrome gauzy white or pastel style based on 
Alma-Tadema’s paintings, but rougher, heavier, redder, and made only 
from materials the Romans would have used - wool, silk and cotton.

The desire for authentic detail has yielded some startling insights. 
Unlike Hollywood’s Roman-Christian epics, Rome tries to bring alive the 
religions of Romans and their cultish obsessions. In episode one the 
main female character Atia (think Joan Collins in Dynasty, but in an 
authentically Roman way) visits a temple and, according to Heller’s 
script, “showers in blood”. Bennett considered the idea preposterous, 
but researched it and discovered it was indeed based on what we know of 
ritual. “They used to lead a bull into a special wooden frame, cut it 
and the animal’s blood would be used as a libation on the body. Your 
imagination could never come up with anything like that. The moralities 
were just so completely different.”

Even gladiator contests in the show won’t look the way we’re used to. 
“Part of authenticity is what an audience expects, but one hopes to jolt 
or at least challenge preconceptions,” says Bennett. In the period in 
which the show is set there was no Coliseum. Gladiator fights, staged in 
the Forum, were more like a modern travelling circus, or a bull fight, 
or an occasion on which criminals were dispatched by professionals in 
front of small crowds with nowhere better to go on an afternoon. It was 
bloody enough, to be sure. On one day of shooting, 11 gladiators got 
their heads, arms or other parts lopped off in front of a baying crowd 
of Italian extras. But “it was on a more human scale than we thought, 
and fights weren’t always to the death. You end up with something you 
haven’t seen before. We can’t compete with the scale of Gladiator, but 
hopefully this is fresher. You make your own myth.”

Heller describes the overall style of Rome as “Ben-Hur meets Kes or 
Cathy Come Home”. Tranter says it’s much more like “Ben-Hur meets The 
Sopranos, with a bit of Mean Streets thrown in.” Either way, it will 
deliver what Jonathan Stamp says is a “severe corrective” to Hollyrome.

How the epic scale fits with the BBC tradition of clever, low-budget 
takes on the period is harder to judge. The 1976 classic I, Claudius was 
sublimely written and acted, and seeing a tape of it six years ago was 
what first set HBO executive Anne Thomopoulos thinking about the idea of 
doing a Roman drama.

But audiences today simply would not accept the production values of I, 
Claudius. As its star, Derek Jacobi, says, “If you looked very carefully 
from scene to scene you would notice that the walls didn’t change. We 
just moved the potted plants around to make it look like a different 
location.” Meanwhile, Carry On Cleo was shot on the lavish set that 
Cleopatra left at the Pinewood studios when production switched to Rome. 
Carry On Cleo cost a tiny fraction of the epic, but ended up the more 
satisfying and coherent movie. Ancient Romans would have preferred it 
too, says Heller. “It didn’t make a song and dance about this foreign 
strumpet. Like Up Pompeii, it was very much in the Roman style - very 
broad, very vulgar, and in your face.”

Yet, inevitably, if it succeeds, Rome will itself end up creating its 
own myths, because all films and TV fiction about the past - and indeed 
all history writing to some degree - involve imagination and conjecture. 
The past is capable of infinite reinterpretation. The point, perhaps, is 
not to produce the definitive vision of Rome, but to engage with it from 
as informed a vantage point as possible.

Artistic visions of Rome have tended to serve the needs of the time in 
which they are made. The Christian evangelism of Ben-Hur, the fascist 
propaganda of Mussolini’s Scipio Africanus and the anti-fascism of 
Spartacus are all equally anachronistic in that they read Roman events 
backwards from the vantage point of the 20th century, something Romans 
themselves obviously didn’t do.

”Life on a day-to-day level is very rarely epic,” says Heller. “We know 
this period was a turning point in western history. But if you were 
living in it, it wouldn’t have appeared so.” He is determinedly trying 
to avoid resonances with our own time, or indeed with any other period 
of history. “It would be false, though of course we allow the audience 
to make those connections themselves, if they wish. Much better to try 
as far as possible to deal with the world entirely in Roman terms, in 
terms of what they thought was going on. They had no sense that the 
Republic was coming to an end. When Brutus, Cassius and the rest killed 
Caesar they thought the Republic would just recreate itself.

”As far as possible, we stay in that time frame. It’s a contemporary 
drama about Romans. I’ve tried to make it a show that ancient Romans 
would understand and enjoy.”



Find this article at:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/95ca7faa-702f-11d9-b572-00000e2511c8,ft_acl=,s01=1.html 




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what exactly is it that this young lady requires, could she contact me with 
details and i will get straight back to her about if we can or cannot do it
phillipa j hess
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume St. Peter's mystery accessories
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Sorry it took so long to reply to this. That odd heart shaped item, it
reminded me of bowls I had seen....somewhere....that were used by pilgrims
for collecting alms. Like begging bowls. The shape looked right to me and
having a string of beads, perhaps a paternoster, attached to it, makes sense
as well.

Somewhere, I have pictures of brass, and ceramic bowls that were used for
this purpose, and that's what jumped to mind when I saw that.

I wish I could be more specific, but, I hope this helps a bit.

Bob Dorr--Robert of Stonemarche.

> Several list members have suggested that the pendant article to the left
of
> (what most folk here consider to be a knife sheath) might be a fan or a
> pomander, but this is what's striking me about it:  it's roughly the shape
> of the stylized pomegranate that was a motif through several centuries'
> (and cultures') textile decoration. I keep wanting to say "palm" instead
of
> "pomegranate" (I guess it *is* palm-shaped and would fit in St. Peter's
> palm), and I seem to recall something about palmiers or palms or something
> related to pilgrims and Crusaders...
>
> There are some indentations like beads or markers between the main "heart"
> shape and the periphery of the object. If one speculates that they
continue
> around where the object is hidden behind the "knife", there would be 20
> such markers, 15 of which are partially or completely visible -- if there
> is any symbology to that.  (If the number were seven or twenty-four or
> thirty, I might consider it a portable clock or calendar mnemonic
device...
> then again, when DID time start getting divided into two sets of twelve
hours?)
>
> Other questions:  What would a coin purse of the time look like (and would
> it be worn that way)? Could it be some sort of portable reliquary for some
> very small *something*? Could it be analogous to a shaman's medicine
pouch?
> Is there some hagiographic marker that distinguishes the apostolic saints
> (should that be capitalized, btw?) from all other saints?
<snip>
> Brenda
> webwarren@earthlink.net


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval suppliers in the UK?
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> >One of the visitors to my website has asked if I know of any 
> "medieval 
> >shops where they have medieval-like clothing in the UK."

> 
> No, as far as I know there are no "shops where they have 
> medieval-like 
> clothing" unless your visitor means "Goth", which case I 
> cannot help.

If they want Goth stuff they could try Black Rose at Camden Market. Pretty stuff but anyone who can sew pretty mauch says, I could make that for myself a fraction of the cost!).


If they want off the peg medieval Kit they'd need to take their chances with whatever traders turn up to whichever re-enactment events take place near them over the Summer Season (May to September..ish) or go to one of the 5 re-enactors markets (2 in March, 2 in novemebr in the Warwick/Coventlry areas and one in May at the medieval barns at Cressing in Essex).

If they want made to measure (where they can specify the level of period accuracy) they need to go to Suzi or one of the other people who provide such services, I could recommend a few.

Teddy
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Subject: [h-cost] Re:  request for wedding dresses
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I'd be happy to do this, as long as the young woman doesn't mind being 
fitted by mail rather than in person. She's managed to hit on two of my 
specialties--the fitted square necked gown (late 15thC/early 16thC) and 
Pre-Raphaelite styles!  (I actually just bought some lovely fabric for the 
purpose of making a for-sale wedding dress of roughly this style... )

-E House


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: [h-cost] forward: request for wedding dresses


>I will not be able to fit this into my schedule this spring, so I am 
>forwarding the message on in hopes that one of you might be willing to do 
>the work for this young lady:
>
> The pictures she sent me will be temporarily on my web site at:
>
> http://www.reddawn.net/temp/d8_1_b.jpeg
> http://www.reddawn.net/temp/red.jpg
>
> Dawn
>
>
> -----------------------------
> From: Lpnmsmith@aol.com
>
> Hello. My name is Marianne Smith and I am looking for someone to make my 
> wedding dress and the dresses of my wedding party. (another for my maid of 
> honor, my brides maid, and for each of my two daughters - 5 total.) My 
> wedding  is for June or July of 2006 and no one makes the type of dress I 
> want in the  bridal stores. Attached you will see examples of what I am 
> looking for as  I  want a medieval wedding.
>
>  If you can help me would you send an estimate of total costs for the 
> work? My address is 7227 N. Richards St. Portland, Or 97203 
> 503-289-1862.
>
> Sizes are as follows. Bride 22 -24
>                                 Maid  of honor - 12 - 14
>                                 brides  maid 8 -10
>                                 daughters  8 kids. and 14 kids. (they are 
> 7 and 9 yrs. old)
>
> Thank you for your time.  Marianne Smith
>
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> 

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E House wrote:

> I'd be happy to do this, as long as the young woman doesn't mind being 
> fitted by mail rather than in person. She's managed to hit on two of my 
> specialties--the fitted square necked gown (late 15thC/early 16thC) and 
> Pre-Raphaelite styles!  (I actually just bought some lovely fabric for 
> the purpose of making a for-sale wedding dress of roughly this style... )
> 

Please feel free to contact her and tell her you got her name from me. 
I've already told her that I would be passing the request along to 
others who could help her.



Dawn



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That article on the HBO series was fabulous. I don't have cable TV but I'll
have to see this. However, I thought it was inadvertantly funny too... All
that talk about authenticity juxtaposed with descriptions of what are no
more than modern conventions, particularly for television "dramas": grime
and filth for all outdoor shots of a city (any city) and a morbid
fascination with blood. Blood everywhere. I don't even watch evening
television anymore, it's all sex crimes and particularly vile murders. This
is supposed to be realistic, yet it has nothing to do with life as anyone I
know lives it. I think it will be fun to see how the costumes will be
different from what we're used to seeing in "Roman" movies, but still
somehow expressive of what everyone expects to see in costumes for
particular dramatic types.

Gail Finke

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Subject: [h-cost] yet one more of faux fur
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Thought that some of you out there would be interested in my find of the week (on the webb).  I needed 5 yards of "teddybear" fabric for a vender costume. I saw just the thing at 'denverfabric.com'.  When the package arrived, I initially thought that I was receiving someonelse's goods.  The fur looks and feels just like a quality sherpa skin.  But All Synthetic!  I had not seen anything like this in the marketplace. I am totally amazed with the technical advances made in this fiber industry. I will not need to line either parts of the suit or the head for this costume.  And it is washable.  And at least for my purpose, is just the right brown.  And all for, I believe, $6.00 per. 

Kathleen
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From: ~Angelique <ivycircle@yahoo.com>
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Good Morning ,

     I had a friend inform me the other day that wool gaberdine was not appropriate for clothing made in 1550 England. I thought I had read somewhere that worsted wool was appropriate. Is there a book or other source that might shed some light on the issue?

                         Thank you, Angelique


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Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

> The fur looks and feels just like a quality sherpa skin. But All
Synthetic!

Since I'm sure that no one is skinning Sherpa mountain guides, this must 
be something else -- what's sherpa?

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

Vengeful Venus Day!  Tired of the sickly-sweet sentiments, or unlucky in 
love?  Cranach Venus feeling vengeful on t-shirts & etc by yours truly: 
http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures/483955
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Subject: [h-cost] Q on selling books
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Things have gotten really tight here; I need to sell off some of my library 
to pay for basic needs such as food and rent. The books range from Lando 
Synge's _Art of Embroidery_ to the little pocket-style book, _Heaven in 
Art_, plus a couple of (probably OT) items such as _Wales: A History_...

Any hints on where I'm best off listing a few items at the time for the 
least cost, and bringing in the largest return?

Thanks in advance.



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, ~Angelique wrote:

>      I had a friend inform me the other day that wool gaberdine was
> not appropriate for clothing made in 1550 England. I thought I had
> read somewhere that worsted wool was appropriate. Is there a book or
> other source that might shed some light on the issue?

Is her problem with the fiber or the weave?

Worsted wool goes back quite a bit further than 1550, but I'm not sure
where I'd go to find a single source/quote/book that describes the
distinctions historically. Perhaps her problem is with the use in
gabardine? Gabardine is a twill weave, though I think it differs from a
period twill, in ways that my weaver friends understand better than I do,
but were subtle enough for me to figure it was pretty darn close.

You can get worsted wool in other fabrics besides gabardine as well.

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: M Stewart <ms154@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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Status: RO

Hi Angelique

really?   hmmmm...  I would really like to know where she came across that 
piece of information -  If you can get her to cite a source I'd love to 
know, honest.   And a little more information of 'why?'  wool gabardine 
wouldn't work would also be nice.   I love it when someone comes up with 
something that I don't know....   It makes me go into instant question 
mode.  ; >



Working from what I do know of gabardine.... first the definition...
Gabardine is a tough, tightly woven 
<http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Fabric/FABRIC_definition.htm>fabric. 
The fibre used to make the fabric is traditionally 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worsted>worsted (a 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wool>woolen yarn).  The fabric is smooth on 
one side and has a diagonally ribbed surface on the other.  To be a little 
more specific the weave is usually a 2:2 twill  it can be other twills, but 
this is the most common for a gabardine.


We do have extant examples of 2:2 weaves  and many other types of weaves in 
wool, from 1550 England.  And tons more information from textile mill 
records and shiping tarrif records - both imports and exports.

I wonder if it is the weight of a modern gabardine that she might be citing 
as inauthentic?  Why?  too heavy or too light?  too fine or too coarse?  We 
can compare modern gabardine epi to 16th century 2:2 twill epi...   No I 
don't have that right in my pocket.

Then,  thank you OED,  there is the question of was the term gaberdine used 
to describe a cloth in the medieval early pre-modern era... looks like it 
wasn't.
Earliest references to gaberdine -and it's etymological equivalents- is 
pretty early 1520 or so... but all of these referr to an exterior wear 
garment... which would make sense to be made out of a tough wearing 2:2 
worsted twill...

But - the use of the term for a fabric type looks like it didn't appear 
until the early 1900s... [From the OED:  1908 Times (weekly ed.) 14 Aug. p. 
iii/2 Gabardine is a material which has many qualities not to be overlooked 
when it is a question of sporting dresses. ]

So  would a medieval person have used the word "gaberdine"  to describe 
a  type of cloth... Not likely
doesn't look like it... a troll through the tarrif records may back that up.

But did they have then the fabric structure that we now call a gaberdine... Yes
in other words a 2:2 twill cloth of worsted wool is well established in the 
archeological and written record of the 1550s.

Was that fabric structure the same... in weave - yes, a 2:2 (or 2:1 or any 
multiple permutation) twill... in fiber - yes worsted wool... in 
weight?  Anyone done this work yet?    or in epi?   again not something I 
have on my person.

But in general - without knowing specifically what your friend is objecting 
to- I'd say a 100% worsted wool 2:2 twill gaberdine is a good available 
approximation of a pre-modern era fabric.




>Good Morning ,
>
>      I had a friend inform me the other day that wool gaberdine was not 
> appropriate for clothing made in 1550 England. I thought I had read 
> somewhere that worsted wool was appropriate. Is there a book or other 
> source that might shed some light on the issue?
>
>                          Thank you, Angelique
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Obviously, the supply at re-enactments tends now to be limited, as I said, 
because those costumers who do trade tend to only attend the big fayres now, 
because that's where people have money to spend.  (There will always be a small 
band of costumers who attend all the fayres they can, because they have large 
stocks.  For those like myself and Suzi (and those listed below), it's simply 
not necessary, because we all have as much work as we need.  Personally I do 
the markets mainly because I'm a re-enactor myself, and it gives me a chance to 
see some friends.)

For the high-end, spec your own levels of finish, authenticity, materials, 
etc, there are many costumers (as far as costumers go, the market is pretty much 
saturated).  (Apart from me :-) ) , I'd recommend as being among the best 
Angela Essenhigh (Seams Historic), Jill Knights (Frederick and Knights) and Ninja 
Mikhaila (sorry if I've spelt her name wrong - usually do).  


That said, it all depends how much you're willing / able to spend.  There are 
suppliers at all market levels, from basic and cheap off the peg, to those 
who can make a court level outfit wth custom embroidery, hand woven and 
naturally dyed fabric.  The spec also largely depends on which group you're with (if 
for re-enactment, as all have their own rules).

Debs.

PS thanks for the link, Suzi - that was the other fayre I meant.





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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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Status: RO

Gabardine, as we use the term today, isn't used as it was just a few decades ago, when it implied twill fabric treated to resist rain.  So, it is possible your friend is thinking of the older usage of the term. As I understand it, today it's mainly used to denote a specific weight of material, with a specific angle to the twill, usually a 45° or 63° right-hand twill. 

Wool gabardine is very similar to a lot of extant fabrics; the angle of the twill might be a tad bit off, but for something that's not handwoven, it's pretty darn close. Kersey, under various spellings, is a historical type of fabric used before and during the 16th century, and the descriptions sounds very similar to me.  A few other types of fabric described as being a wool twill are fleuret, raxa de Florencia, and rash/arras. This covers France, Italy, Germany, and England, all around the time you're interested in, and these could be both finely woven (much finer than what's sold as wool gabardine today) or quite coarse, and could be made of 'long wool' (worsted) or of short, fulled wool.

Some books:
M. Channing Lithicum, Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and His
Contemporaries
Doreen Yarwood, The Encyclopedia of World Costume
Isabel Wingate, Fairchild's Dictionary of Textiles
Karen Stolleis, Die Gewänder aus der Lauinger Fürstengruft
Online Oxford English Dictionary
Janet Arnold, Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd
Ingrid Löschek, Reclams Mode und Kostümlexikon
Rosita Levi Pizetsky, Storia del Costume in Italia
August Fink, Schwarzenem Trachtenbuch.
Juan de Alcega/Jean Pain & Cecilia Baynton translators, Tailor's Pattern
Book 1589
Jutta Zander-Seidel, Textiler Hausrat, Kleidung und Haustextilien in
Nürnberg von 1500 - 1650

By the way, the term 'worsted' dates back at least as far as 13thC Middle English; it comes from the name of the town in Norfolk (Worstead/worthstede) where this type of cloth was originally made.

-E House
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] Re:Rome and film authenticity.
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Status: RO

I was a bit bemused by the idea that it would be unexpected to have lots 
of sex in something about Rome.  I thought orgies all the way was the 
standard version?  Or maybe I just read too much Juvenal at a tender 
age. It sounds to me like they're going for the "medieval" look to 
replace the "white classical" look - everyone and everything will be mud 
coloured.

I have to say, it's not just history that gets trashed on camera.  There 
was a very familiar sounding piece in a recent edition of a Scottish 
dance magazine, from a group who had agreed to provide dancers for a 
film and were then required to do moves never before known in Scottish 
dancing, because the director thought they looked good.

Jean


Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote
>
>That article on the HBO series was fabulous. I don't have cable TV but I'll
>have to see this. However, I thought it was inadvertantly funny too... All
>that talk about authenticity juxtaposed with descriptions of what are no
>more than modern conventions, particularly for television "dramas": grime
>and filth for all outdoor shots of a city (any city) and a morbid
>fascination with blood. Blood everywhere. I don't even watch evening
>television anymore, it's all sex crimes and particularly vile murders. This
>is supposed to be realistic, yet it has nothing to do with life as anyone I
>know lives it. I think it will be fun to see how the costumes will be
>different from what we're used to seeing in "Roman" movies, but still
>somehow expressive of what everyone expects to see in costumes for
>particular dramatic types.
>
>Gail Finke
>
>_______________________________________________
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>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 71
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:16:59 -0800
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I just find the small fayres cost me too much to attend with gas, setup,
tent, fees, food, propane etc.. I will only attend the one big fayres
locally where people come to buy as I am finding it just too much work for
me.

Brin Kendall

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Debloughcostumes@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:33 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 71


Obviously, the supply at re-enactments tends now to be limited, as I said,
because those costumers who do trade tend to only attend the big fayres now,
because that's where people have money to spend.  (There will always be a
small
band of costumers who attend all the fayres they can, because they have
large
stocks.  For those like myself and Suzi (and those listed below), it's
simply
not necessary, because we all have as much work as we need.  Personally I do
the markets mainly because I'm a re-enactor myself, and it gives me a chance
to
see some friends.)

For the high-end, spec your own levels of finish, authenticity, materials,
etc, there are many costumers (as far as costumers go, the market is pretty
much
saturated).  (Apart from me :-) ) , I'd recommend as being among the best
Angela Essenhigh (Seams Historic), Jill Knights (Frederick and Knights) and
Ninja
Mikhaila (sorry if I've spelt her name wrong - usually do).


That said, it all depends how much you're willing / able to spend.  There
are
suppliers at all market levels, from basic and cheap off the peg, to those
who can make a court level outfit wth custom embroidery, hand woven and
naturally dyed fabric.  The spec also largely depends on which group you're
with (if
for re-enactment, as all have their own rules).

Debs.

PS thanks for the link, Suzi - that was the other fayre I meant.





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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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As one who is looking for exactly the right shade of lightweight gabardine for an Elizabethan gown at the moment <g> I may have a _little_ more information, though it's somewhat indirect.

The costume director in my Renaissance guild doesn't like gabardine for two reasons, and they have nothing to do with its weave. The most important reason, she says, is that it tends to have a very smooth, almost slick finish on it, which just doesn't look very much like other period wool fabrics. The other reason is that it tends to be too lightweight to hang well -- at least, to hang like the stuff in 16th-century portraits. (Considering that she's been researching costume since about 1969, and that I know how good her scholarship is, I'd tend to believe her.)

Now none of this is a reason to consider gabardine "not period", though it was quite likely called something else in the 16th century. Rather, her judgement is that it's not a good choice if you're aiming for an obvious "period look." I could certainly see someone else objecting to it on similar grounds.

I need a lightweight fabric for my next Elizabethan gown, since I have a medical condition that limits my physical energy (especially in hot weather) and my old gown simply weighs too many pounds for me to carry around all day. So I've suggested to her that I simply wash gabardine before sewing with it -- I have a medieval dress in washed gabardine, and it does look much less like a modern fabric after washing. Like any good costume director, she won't approve it until she can actually see it <g> but she says this sounds quite likely to work.

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Subject: [h-cost] Gabardine
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Hi
the reason your friend may have said Gabardine was not
period for 1550 is this:-

Thomas Burberry (1835 – 1926) born at Brookham Green,
near Dorking, England was an apprentice to a draper.
He started his own business in 1856 in Basingstoke,
Hampshire and expanded into clothing.

While he was researching waterproof material, a doctor
stated that the ideal fabric would be impervious to
rain and wind, but allow the body to breathe. Inspired
by the closely woven linen smocks of local shepherds
he designed a cotton fabric, which was waterproofed
both in the yarn and then in the final fabric. He
called the material "Gabardine", but the raincoats
were soon known as Burberry. During the Boer War
officers begin to wear Burberry raincoats, which
persuaded the War Office to give official approval and
the coat model Trench 21, specifically designed for
World War I trench warfare was produced in 1914.

I heard on a quiz tonight that Burberry had 'invented'
gabardine weave (the long staples and diagonal help to
wick the moisture away before it penetrates) -
ignoring the existence of a 2/2 twill weave (sorry,
brain shutting down) for a few hundred years prior to
the 20C.

HTH
Katherine


	
	
		
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:01:31 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gabardine
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At 11:54 PM 1/31/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi
>[snip]
>I heard on a quiz tonight that Burberry had 'invented'
>gabardine weave (the long staples and diagonal help to
>wick the moisture away before it penetrates) -
>ignoring the existence of a 2/2 twill weave (sorry,
>brain shutting down) for a few hundred years prior to
>the 20C.
>
>HTH
>Katherine

Actually, 2/2 twill is the most common twill for the past few thousand 
years (at least).

 From your friendly fiber fan,

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanmj@surewest.net

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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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Status: RO

Chris, how about tropical weight wools? i have a piece for my next
court dress and it's very lightweight. And it seems to hang
beautifully.

I made an Elizabethan tall hat from gabardine. The teacher, another
historical fanatic, tried to talk me out of using it, not because it
wasn't period but because it fades easily. My argument was that that I
didn't expect the hat to last more than four seasons at best anyway,
and I didn't think the fading would be too obvious within that
timeframe. i made the hat and I love it.
LynnD


On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:55:28 -0800 (GMT-08:00), Chris Laning
<claning@igc.org> wrote:
> As one who is looking for exactly the right shade of lightweight gabardine for an Elizabethan gown at the moment <g> I may have a _little_ more information, though it's somewhat indirect.
> 
> The costume director in my Renaissance guild doesn't like gabardine for two reasons, and they have nothing to do with its weave. The most important reason, she says, is that it tends to have a very smooth, almost slick finish on it, which just doesn't look very much like other period wool fabrics. The other reason is that it tends to be too lightweight to hang well -- at least, to hang like the stuff in 16th-century portraits. (Considering that she's been researching costume since about 1969, and that I know how good her scholarship is, I'd tend to believe her.)
> 
> Now none of this is a reason to consider gabardine "not period", though it was quite likely called something else in the 16th century. Rather, her judgement is that it's not a good choice if you're aiming for an obvious "period look." I could certainly see someone else objecting to it on similar grounds.
> 
> I need a lightweight fabric for my next Elizabethan gown, since I have a medical condition that limits my physical energy (especially in hot weather) and my old gown simply weighs too many pounds for me to carry around all day. So I've suggested to her that I simply wash gabardine before sewing with it -- I have a medieval dress in washed gabardine, and it does look much less like a modern fabric after washing. Like any good costume director, she won't approve it until she can actually see it <g> but she says this sounds quite likely to work.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> 0  Chris Laning
> |  <claning@igc.org>
> +  Davis, California
> ____________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Laning" <claning@igc.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?


> I need a lightweight fabric for my next Elizabethan gown, since I have a 
> medical condition that limits my physical energy (especially in hot 
> weather) and my old gown simply weighs too many pounds for me to carry 
> around all day. So I've suggested to her that I simply wash gabardine 
> before sewing with it -- I have a medieval dress in washed gabardine, and 
> it does look much less like a modern fabric after washing. Like any good 
> costume director, she won't approve it until she can actually see it <g> 
> but she says this sounds quite likely to work.

I've made several Elizabethans in wool gabardine, washed before cutting, and 
they came out quite nice. It was comfortable to wear and hung beautifully.

Dianne 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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At 16:13 31/01/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Angelique
>
>really?   hmmmm...  I would really like to know where she came across that 
>piece of information -  If you can get her to cite a source I'd love to 
>know, honest.   And a little more information of 'why?'  wool gabardine 
>wouldn't work would also be nice.   I love it when someone comes up with 
>something that I don't know....   It makes me go into instant question 
>mode.  ; >
>
>
>
>Working from what I do know of gabardine.... first the definition...
>Gabardine is a tough, tightly woven 
><http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Fabric/FABRIC_definition.htm>fabric. 
>The fibre used to make the fabric is traditionally 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worsted>worsted (a 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wool>woolen yarn).  The fabric is smooth on 
>one side and has a diagonally ribbed surface on the other.  To be a little 
>more specific the weave is usually a 2:2 twill  it can be other twills, 
>but this is the most common for a gabardine.
>
>
>We do have extant examples of 2:2 weaves  and many other types of weaves 
>in wool, from 1550 England.  And tons more information from textile mill 
>records and shiping tarrif records - both imports and exports.
>
>I wonder if it is the weight of a modern gabardine that she might be 
>citing as inauthentic?  Why?  too heavy or too light?  too fine or too 
>coarse?  We can compare modern gabardine epi to 16th century 2:2 twill 
>epi...   No I don't have that right in my pocket.
>
>Then,  thank you OED,  there is the question of was the term gaberdine 
>used to describe a cloth in the medieval early pre-modern era... looks 
>like it wasn't.
>Earliest references to gaberdine -and it's etymological equivalents- is 
>pretty early 1520 or so... but all of these referr to an exterior wear 
>garment... which would make sense to be made out of a tough wearing 2:2 
>worsted twill...
>
>But - the use of the term for a fabric type looks like it didn't appear 
>until the early 1900s... [From the OED:  1908 Times (weekly ed.) 14 Aug. 
>p. iii/2 Gabardine is a material which has many qualities not to be 
>overlooked when it is a question of sporting dresses. ]
>
>So  would a medieval person have used the word "gaberdine"  to describe 
>a  type of cloth... Not likely
>doesn't look like it... a troll through the tarrif records may back that up.
>
>But did they have then the fabric structure that we now call a 
>gaberdine... Yes
>in other words a 2:2 twill cloth of worsted wool is well established in 
>the archeological and written record of the 1550s.

Shakespeare makes Shylock say "...and spit upon my Jewish gabardine" in 
"Merchant of Venice. Was it a garment at that time?

Suzi


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Jan 31 22:49:44 2005
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:48:51 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hollyrome vs. Rome
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At 9:42 AM -0500 1/31/05, Hope Greenberg wrote:
>Here's an article on a new HBO series on Rome. 
>Quoted first is the costume specific bit but I 
>included the whole article for those interested 
>in how history is filtered and shaped by film:
>
>"The attention to detail on set is impressive. 
>When the script called for thousands of gold 
>coins stamped with Caesar¹s head, props master 
>Arthur Wicks (with the aid of ³a little man in 
>the Vatican²) made thousands of replica gold 
>coins stamped with the head of Ciaran Hinds, the 
>actor playing Caesar. The show¹s superb 
>costumes, made by April Ferry, are not the 
>traditional Hollyrome gauzy white or pastel 
>style based on Alma-Tadema¹s paintings, but 
>rougher, heavier, redder, and made only from 
>materials the Romans would have used - wool, 
>silk and cotton."

Ok, I gotta ask: cotton?  And no linen?

Heather
-- 
****
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@earthlink.net
****

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Documentation of worsted wools in 1550?
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> how about tropical weight wools?

I'd make myself tunics of tropical weight wool -- if I could find a place
selling it! Fashion Fabrics Club won't ship outside the U.S., and the only
other place I know if is Denver Fabrics... does anybody know of any good
sources online?
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