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Subject: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic
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Hi All!

I am looking for a color picture: "Cosimo de Medici at the age of 12" (Duke
Cosimo I de Medici) It is by Ridolfo GHIRLANDAIO,  and it is in the Palazzo
Medici-Riccardi in Florence. Has anyone ever seen this on the web? If so,
couild you please send me the link? Thanks!
Dame Catriona MacDuff


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Oct  1 20:31:39 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] wool felt source?
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Anyone have a source (pref US, but I'm not picky) for 100% wool felt 
(for making hats)?
I am not looking for 'hoods' but for flat pieces. I am in the midst of 
making a hat from a vintage vogue pattern (which is set up for flat 
goods) and am fighting with cheap-looking 20% wool felt.

liz young

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From: "Helen  Pinto" <hpinto@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] wool felt source?
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Try Weir Dolls:

http://www.weirdolls.com/fabrics/100felt.html

They have a medium weight 100% wool felt in over 40 colors by the yard or in 
pieces.

Hope this helps; good luck with your project.

         -Helen/Aidan 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Oct  1 23:37:59 2005
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Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to
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Subject: [h-cost] Tea dye diagnosis and reversal
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Hi Folks,

I've got something probably from the 1920s, partly wool, which might 
have been tea-dyed at some point; the colors are very muted.  I've tried 
  rubbing it with a damp white cloth, but no color came off.

Do you know of any other way to tell if something has been tea-dyed?  It 
should stand up to a proper washing, but I don't want to go through the 
hour or two of work it would entail to get this off its ground fabric 
just to find out after washing, that the color it is was the intended color!

I did a Google search but didn't find anything to address this question.

Thanks for the bandwidth,
cv

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Oct  1 23:45:58 2005
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From: "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@tpg.com.au>
To: "AIPON" <AmIPeriodorNot@yahoogroups.com>,
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Subject: [h-cost] Am I Period Or Not,
	Share your costumes with the world (cross post)
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Hi everyone,
Some people may remember my last message on this topic a few months ago,
well I'm appealing for more costumes, if you have a photo of a costume you
have made, from any period of history, please consider submitting it to Am I
Period Or Not (aka AIPON) http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/. So far it
appears the 16th century costumers are achieving our secret aim of taking
over the world ;-). But there are so many other pretty styles out there and
it would be fabulous if we could see what costumers have been doing in all
eras (even ones that never really existed like Lord of the Rings)
Please pass this on to anybody you think would be interested, after all it's
much quicker and simpler to email a photo to us (see
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/photos.htm for submission rules) than
setting up your own webpage (even if you do have your own webpage you can
always put photos of your work on AIPON and include a link to your webpage
for more info).
I hope to see a flood of new and interesting photos in response to this
email.
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] wool felt source?
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I know some of the millinery supply places on-line stock stuff like 
that.  For example, http://www.hatsupply.com/flat_fur_felt.htm 
carries flat fur felt for some of the vogue vintage patterns.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 07:30 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
>Anyone have a source (pref US, but I'm not picky) for 100% wool felt 
>(for making hats)?
>I am not looking for 'hoods' but for flat pieces. I am in the midst 
>of making a hat from a vintage vogue pattern (which is set up for 
>flat goods) and am fighting with cheap-looking 20% wool felt.
>
>liz young

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From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tambour embroidery
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 17:31:05 +0000
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>Tambour:
>You have for a background cloth a loose weave or netted material that is
>pulled taught. Your crochet hook should be small enough that it inserts and
>returns with thread without much difficulty.
>Either side of the chainstitch w/out beads can be used.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. My needlework encyclopedia uses the looped side. 
It doesn't show how to do tambour beading, but it shows how to fill spaces 
with tambour stitches, and they use the looped side as the right side. I 
think that's how it was done in the Empire period. Or maybe they did both? I 
have to go back and re-examine closeups I have of Empire era works, see 
which is the right side...


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tambour embroidery
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At 18:31 02/10/2005, you wrote:
>>Tambour:
>>You have for a background cloth a loose weave or netted material that is
>>pulled taught. Your crochet hook should be small enough that it inserts and
>>returns with thread without much difficulty.
>>Either side of the chainstitch w/out beads can be used.
>
>Ah, okay, that makes sense. My needlework encyclopedia uses the 
>looped side. It doesn't show how to do tambour beading, but it shows 
>how to fill spaces with tambour stitches, and they use the looped 
>side as the right side. I think that's how it was done in the Empire 
>period. Or maybe they did both? I have to go back and re-examine 
>closeups I have of Empire era works, see which is the right side...


I have part of a waistcoat, which I believe is French, which is 
tambour embroidered, with the "chain stitch" side on the top side of 
the fabric. You can see it in close-up as the background to my fotopic site.
http://suziclarke4384.fotopic.net/

Suzi


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Could this be it?

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/05/hm88_5_0_46_2.html

De

-----Original Message-----
Hi All!

I am looking for a color picture: "Cosimo de Medici at the age of 12" (Duke
Cosimo I de Medici) It is by Ridolfo GHIRLANDAIO,  and it is in the Palazzo
Medici-Riccardi in Florence. Has anyone ever seen this on the web? If so,
couild you please send me the link? Thanks!
Dame Catriona MacDuff


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Subject: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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Hi,
I have a book from the very 1900s which is for cutting out of underthings. 
I"m planning on starting making some of them and having a little trouble 
figuring out modern substitutes for fabric mentioned. I haven't made 
anything from this time frame (or the preceeding century), a fact which I 
don't think is helping.

Calico and longcloth are mentioned quite a bit, I'm assuming the calico 
here is nothing like the calico I can buy in Australia (or more accurately 
the stuff you get in most fabric stores here, the calico I have in kits 
from the UK seems to be of a far better quality). What would I be looking 
for in terms of  weave etc - although I'm not sure that this would help at 
the moment as the book describes the individual fabrics reasonable well in 
these terms but I can't seem to translate it to reality.  Names of 
substitutes would possibly be better

Cambric is also mentioned, and I'm wondering if anybody could, again, 
suggest substitutes please. Is it anything like a decent cotton lawn (like 
what liberty and liberty-like prints use)?

If it is of any help I'm looking at making things like combinations, 
camisoles, petticoat bodices, american drawers and the like with a 
reasonable amount of handsewing (using the machine only for the long seams).

Thank you,
Sharon

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Subject: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic take 2
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Now *I* need to find a pic.

All I can remember is that is is of a "Hunt", everyone is in white, and some of the ladies are wearing houplenades (sp?).

I know can I be - more - vague.

I am especially looking for either a high-rez version that I can cut certain dresses out of the pic, or many high-rez details.

Thanks
Katheryne
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic take 2
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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> Now *I* need to find a pic.
>
> All I can remember is that is is of a "Hunt", everyone is in white, and
> some of the ladies are wearing houplenades (sp?).

Well, I found the name for you but after a little searching, I found very
little on line.  I found it in the book "20,000 years of fashion" by
Francois Boucher and it is called "Hunting with falcons at the court of
Philip the Good".  The artist is just listed as "french school" and it is
supposed to be housed at Versailles.

> I know can I be - more - vague.
>
> I am especially looking for either a high-rez version that I can cut
> certain dresses out of the pic, or many high-rez details.

It may be easier to find if you can find the painting name in french and
search for that.  But if you don't have much luck, contact me off-list and
I am willing to scan it and send it to you privately....

HTH,

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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What is the book  you are using?

You want a closely woven, fine-textured cotton or linen.  Weight was 
usually light but varied from well, light but durable and pretty firmly 
woven, to rather sheer batiste type weight.  Machine eyelet border-type 
fabric was popular as the main fabric for small garments like camisoles, 
and for flounces on things like drawers and petticoats.  Color, usually 
white. Most originals are yellowish off-white by this time unless they 
were subjected to modern bleaching.  Thin plain-woven silks were also 
used. These could be pink (pastel rather than bright), light pale 
yellow, cream colored, and that's mostly what I've seen in surviving 
garments from this period.  Valenciennes type lace was very popular for 
trimming.  Homemade crochet was quite popular for trimming the more 
firmly woven undergarments. Tatting was used to some extent with the 
same type of fabrics crochet was used with.

There is certainly a larger number of "authentic" options than this, but 
anyway you've got the idea.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books of Victorian and Edwardian Patterns
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Sharon Nevin wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a book from the very 1900s which is for cutting out of 
> underthings. I"m planning on starting making some of them and having a 
> little trouble figuring out modern substitutes for fabric mentioned.

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Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 21:44:56 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] wool felt source?
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>Anyone have a source (pref US, but I'm not picky) for 100% wool felt (for 
>making hats)?
>I am not looking for 'hoods' but for flat pieces. I am in the midst of 
>making a hat from a vintage vogue pattern (which is set up for flat goods) 
>and am fighting with cheap-looking 20% wool felt.

Many quilt stores will have 100% wool felt, but I don't know if it's the 
right weight.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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At 02:03 03/10/2005, you wrote:
>Hi,
>I have a book from the very 1900s which is for cutting out of 
>underthings. I"m planning on starting making some of them and having 
>a little trouble figuring out modern substitutes for fabric 
>mentioned. I haven't made anything from this time frame (or the 
>preceeding century), a fact which I don't think is helping.
>
>Calico and longcloth are mentioned quite a bit, I'm assuming the 
>calico here is nothing like the calico I can buy in Australia (or 
>more accurately the stuff you get in most fabric stores here, the 
>calico I have in kits from the UK seems to be of a far better 
>quality). What would I be looking for in terms of  weave etc - 
>although I'm not sure that this would help at the moment as the book 
>describes the individual fabrics reasonable well in these terms but 
>I can't seem to translate it to reality.  Names of substitutes would 
>possibly be better
>
>Cambric is also mentioned, and I'm wondering if anybody could, 
>again, suggest substitutes please. Is it anything like a decent 
>cotton lawn (like what liberty and liberty-like prints use)?
>
>If it is of any help I'm looking at making things like combinations, 
>camisoles, petticoat bodices, american drawers and the like with a 
>reasonable amount of handsewing (using the machine only for the long seams).


Long cloth is a firm weave cotton (also know as Horrocks's Long Cloth 
- the name of the manufacturer.). I have a set of combinations in 
long cloth and it is similar to what I buy as cotton poplin, although 
in England that has a slight sheen, and the long cloth doesn't. Most 
of the genuine Victorian/Edwardian underthings I have are made from a 
similar weight material - but only the one has been specifically identified.

English cambric is slightly heavier than Liberty weight lawn, as far 
as I know. However, mostly you cannot buy fabric in England by 
weight, so I cannot be more specific.

Suzi 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sharon Nevin <sharon.nevin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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At 02:24 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote:
>What is the book  you are using?

Cutting Out for Student Teachers by Amy K. Smith. 3rd Edition. Printed By 
Sir Isaac Pitman & Sons, London. 1916. I got lucky on Australian ebay and 
found an original copy for au$30.00. The only changes between this edition 
and the 1904 edition is addition of two patterns plus changes to the 
letterpress in terms of clarifying instructions and updating of exams. It's 
basically 256 pages on teaching cutting out of and patterns for 
underclothing (ladies, children, and men's shirts)



>There is certainly a larger number of "authentic" options than this, but 
>anyway you've got the idea.

Thank you for your suggestions

Sharon 

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Status: RO

 
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> joanmj@surewest.net 30/09/2005 20:41 >>> wrote

>But isn't much (or even most) of that look an optical illusion rather 
>than actual physical posture?  Lots of floof in the front and a pad 
>for the buttocks should give that look.
 
Not entirely. I once tried on an original pair of combinations of that period and found that I had to stand in that posture to make them fit.


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>>All I can remember is that is is of a "Hunt", everyone is in white, and
>>some of the ladies are wearing houplenades (sp?).
> 
> 
> Well, I found the name for you but after a little searching, I found very
> little on line.  I found it in the book "20,000 years of fashion" by
> Francois Boucher and it is called "Hunting with falcons at the court of
> Philip the Good".  The artist is just listed as "french school" and it is
> supposed to be housed at Versailles.

I have been told that this is a *copy* of the orginal, which was lost or 
destroyed.  It would certainly explain some of the weird details of the 
clothing.

Other sources call it "the white wedding" although it doesn't seem to be 
a wedding.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sharon Nevin <sharon.nevin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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>
>English cambric is slightly heavier than Liberty weight lawn, as far as I 
>know. However, mostly you cannot buy fabric in England by weight, so I 
>cannot be more specific.
I've only seen fabric sold by weight from american suppliers, but cotton 
poplin (in a range of qualities) is easily available here (Australia) so 
that's extremely helpful.
Thanks
Sharon 

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi.
First thanks for all your good wishes for my quick recovery.
Apropos very fine linen, my embroidery shop has taken home some very fine 
linen. It is so fine that it is sheer, and the slopes are only very little.
 i remember back that some people needed sources for fine linen to a Chemise 
a la Reine. This would be very usefull for it. Dont think i have seen this 
before and just wanted to share that it is available on the market today.
About tambour work. Costme in detail has closeups of embroidered gentlemans 
waistcoat made in tambourwork and worked with a variegated thread. Looks 
very nice.
I got tambour hooks at lacis.com but must admit that the hook are two fine 
for me, much quicker for me to work chainstitches....................
At Nordiska Museet in Stockholm i found a beautifull embroidered womans 
purse with Silk Ribbon Embroidery dated from 1745. Roses made in ribbon, 
leaves two with straigt stitches. stemstitches for  the lines.
They even had leftovers of silk ribbons wined on cardboard, looks excactly 
the same as today.
Got an x-ray of my break, looks good, plaster off oktober 20th. Has started 
to embroider again, only slow, and dyed silk threads today...............

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic
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No. The picture that I am seeking is in the Palazzo Medici-Riccardi in
Florence. I have see the one in the Hermitage, but thanks for givinig it to
me!!!
Dame Catriona MacDuff

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of otsisto
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:42 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic


Could this be it?

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/05/hm88_5_0_46_2.html

De

-----Original Message-----
Hi All!

I am looking for a color picture: "Cosimo de Medici at the age of 12" (Duke
Cosimo I de Medici) It is by Ridolfo GHIRLANDAIO,  and it is in the Palazzo
Medici-Riccardi in Florence. Has anyone ever seen this on the web? If so,
couild you please send me the link? Thanks!
Dame Catriona MacDuff


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustavian harvest feast-a question about a costume
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Bjarne, first, I am sorry to hear of your broken wrist!  Lovely 
pictures...are you in any of them?  I thought it might be you in the 
yellow silk suit-but it is a little hard to tell with all the makeup? 
I have a question about the brown and violet shot silk dress in the 
first picture.  Why are the sides so long?  Were they intended to drag 
to the side or was the dress originally meant to be worn with larger 
panniers?

Sg


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct  3 10:07:53 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustavian harvest feast-a question about a costume
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:07:28 +0200
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YOU WICKED FRAU _:-)

How nice to hear from you!
I cant answer you in this question, lady told me, she did not make it 
herself.
But one thing i can tell you.
The gentleman with the very beautifull embroidered suit in burgundy red had 
his mistress made it for him from fabrics of Hyena!!!!
Machine embroidered fabrics can be very treathcherous
:-(
But beautifull..............

B jarne




- Original Message ----- 
From: "WickedFrau" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustavian harvest feast-a question about a costume


> Bjarne, first, I am sorry to hear of your broken wrist!  Lovely 
> pictures...are you in any of them?  I thought it might be you in the 
> yellow silk suit-but it is a little hard to tell with all the makeup? I 
> have a question about the brown and violet shot silk dress in the first 
> picture.  Why are the sides so long?  Were they intended to drag to the 
> side or was the dress originally meant to be worn with larger panniers?
>
> Sg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic
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At 14:49 03/10/2005, you wrote:
>No. The picture that I am seeking is in the Palazzo Medici-Riccardi in
>Florence. I have see the one in the Hermitage, but thanks for givinig it to
>me!!!
>Dame Catriona MacDuff


I have a photo of a painting at the Ashmolean Museum of Cosimo, I 
think, but it is another Bronzino. I could send it you privately if you like.

Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotton Fabrics and substitutes for Edwardian underthings.
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Yes, that's a classic of the period. I have a couple editions of it.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Sharon Nevin wrote:

> At 02:24 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote:
>
>> What is the book  you are using?
>
>
> Cutting Out for Student Teachers by Amy K. Smith. 3rd Edition. Printed 
> By Sir Isaac Pitman & Sons, London. 1916. I got lucky on Australian 
> ebay and found an original copy for au$30.00. The only changes between 
> this edition and the 1904 edition is addition of two patterns plus 
> changes to the letterpress in terms of clarifying instructions and 
> updating of exams. It's basically 256 pages on teaching cutting out of 
> and patterns for underclothing (ladies, children, and men's shirts)
>
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Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:12:59 -0400
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic
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That would be great! Thanks!
Catriona

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:09 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need to find a costume pic


At 14:49 03/10/2005, you wrote:
>No. The picture that I am seeking is in the Palazzo Medici-Riccardi in
>Florence. I have see the one in the Hermitage, but thanks for givinig it to
>me!!!
>Dame Catriona MacDuff


I have a photo of a painting at the Ashmolean Museum of Cosimo, I
think, but it is another Bronzino. I could send it you privately if you
like.

Suzi


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Subject: [h-cost] Question: Ageless Patterns 1891 corset for elerly woman
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Hello all.
I havn't posted to this board in a very long time, but I am seriously 
hoping someone has some insight they could share.

http://www.agelesspatterns.com/images/1062.GIF

I'm working on the 1891 straight-front corset, which is supposed to come 
out to 35" bust, and 24" waist, with the typical 5/8" seam allowance 
drawn into each piece.  It's supposedly an original from Harper's 
Bazaar, not sized up. (It appears the maker has re-drawn this pattern to 
make it multi sized since I purchased it, but this one is "the original").

However, once putting it together in a muslin, it comes out more like 
42" bust, and 30" waist, with typical lengths to front, back and side.  
Not to mention that with the slope of the breast area, I would need at 
*least* a D-cup to even start filling it out.

Does anyone know whether this pattern maker has mis-quoted the seam 
allowances vastly or done something else wacky I've not considered 
yet??  I'm confused -- the narrower pieces don't look like they could be 
taken in any more, or they would be less than 1/4" wide, finished!
If nobody has any idea about my issue with the older version of the 
pattern, perhaps someone would know about the current one?  Perhaps even 
quirks and tricks about this maker's corset patterns in general?  Any 
ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Confuzzled,
K
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question: Ageless Patterns 1891 corset for elderly woman
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At 04:35 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>Hello all.
>I havn't posted to this board in a very long time, but I am 
>seriously hoping someone has some insight they could share.
>
>http://www.agelesspatterns.com/images/1062.GIF
>
>I'm working on the 1891 straight-front corset, which is supposed to 
>come out to 35" bust, and 24" waist, with the typical 5/8" seam 
>allowance drawn into each piece.  It's supposedly an original from 
>Harper's Bazaar, not sized up. (It appears the maker has re-drawn 
>this pattern to make it multi sized since I purchased it, but this 
>one is "the original").
>
>However, once putting it together in a muslin, it comes out more 
>like 42" bust, and 30" waist, with typical lengths to front, back and side.
>Not to mention that with the slope of the breast area, I would need 
>at *least* a D-cup to even start filling it out.
>
>Does anyone know whether this pattern maker has mis-quoted the seam 
>allowances vastly or done something else wacky I've not considered 
>yet??  I'm confused -- the narrower pieces don't look like they 
>could be taken in any more, or they would be less than 1/4" wide, finished!
>If nobody has any idea about my issue with the older version of the 
>pattern, perhaps someone would know about the current one?  Perhaps 
>even quirks and tricks about this maker's corset patterns in 
>general?  Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Confuzzled,
>K

Have you put in the boning yet?  The boning will take it in quite a bit.


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 

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Are her panniers hanging to low?
They look droopy.

WickedFrau wrote:

> Bjarne, first, I am sorry to hear of your broken wrist!  Lovely 
> pictures...are you in any of them?  I thought it might be you in the 
> yellow silk suit-but it is a little hard to tell with all the makeup? 
> I have a question about the brown and violet shot silk dress in the 
> first picture.  Why are the sides so long?  Were they intended to drag 
> to the side or was the dress originally meant to be worn with larger 
> panniers?
>
> Sg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Anyone else out there?  I'm not getting any mail from the list.

Sg
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:11:31 -0700
From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
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Is anyone else getting mail???

Sg
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct  4 18:14:50 2005
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Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:14:24 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Testing
In-reply-to: <BAY0-SMTP089E47D054E82E631B53FFA9830@phx.gbl>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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WickedFrau wrote:

> Anyone else out there?  I'm not getting any mail from the list.
>


I got this.  The last email I had before this one was ~14 hours ago.

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Habeo metrum - musicamque,
hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
-Georgeus Gershwinus
----------------------------- 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct  4 19:04:51 2005
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Testing
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:03:33 +0000
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X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2,
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Status: RO


I think the list might be mid-hiccup or at that point in a cyber-shneeze where it's gathering the emails for big explosive schneeze.

And then we'll all be innundated... 
-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Anyone else out there? I'm not getting any mail from the list. 
> 
> Sg 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct  4 19:04:58 2005
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Testing
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:03:48 +0000
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Status: RO


I think the list might be mid-hiccup or at that point in a cyber-shneeze where it's gathering the emails for big explosive schneeze.

And then we'll all be innundated..
Elena/Gia. 
-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Anyone else out there? I'm not getting any mail from the list. 
> 
> Sg 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct  4 19:07:32 2005
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From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Testing
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Status: RO

Adele de Maisieres wrote:

> WickedFrau wrote:
> 
>> Anyone else out there?  I'm not getting any mail from the list.
> 
> I got this.  The last email I had before this one was ~14 hours ago.
> 


Got both tests and Adele's reply. Something is working...



Dawn

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Subject: [h-cost] Known World Costume Symposium
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I'm sure all the SCA people know about this, but even non-SCA people who are interested in medieval or renaissance costume would find things to learn at this event this weekend.  It will be in Atchison, Kansas which is near Kansas City.  The website is very badly designed but at least gives the minimum information: http://www.dunard.org/KnownWorldCostuming/Index.htm

Janet
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] fine linnen
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Where does one purchase this wonderful linen?
Anne

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:04 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] fine linnen

Hi.
First thanks for all your good wishes for my quick recovery.
Apropos very fine linen, my embroidery shop has taken home some very fine 
linen. It is so fine that it is sheer, and the slopes are only very little.
 i remember back that some people needed sources for fine linen to a Chemise

a la Reine. This would be very usefull for it. Dont think i have seen this 
before and just wanted to share that it is available on the market today.


Bjarne






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Subject: [h-cost] Henry James film
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After having thought I'd seen every Henry James film adaptation in 
existence, I just ran across a "new" one--a 1998 PBS Pictures film of 
"The American," starring Matthew Modine, Diana Rigg, and others.  They 
took a few liberties with the novel, but it's a good film.  It's set in 
the later 1860s which is a rather unusual costume period for films. 

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costume
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Another PBS/BBC Mystery production set in the mid-late 1860's is "Uncle
Silas" with Peter O'Toole.

Not too many on-screen stuff is set in the mid-late 1860's or 1884-5,
probably because both of these sets of years during the rule of the
bustle/back fullness dress cycle are seen as visually unattractive
today.  Probably the same reason we don't see too many productions set
in the late Elizabethan or early Jacobean wealthy and court society, as
well as into Charles I. In the former French farthingales take up too
much space and in the later all those high-waisted, big sleeved, wide
and ornate collars make most women look fat and/or pregnant to modern
eyes

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Lavolta Press
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:24 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Henry James film

After having thought I'd seen every Henry James film adaptation in
existence, I just ran across a "new" one--a 1998 PBS Pictures film of
"The American," starring Matthew Modine, Diana Rigg, and others.  They
took a few liberties with the novel, but it's a good film.  It's set in
the later 1860s which is a rather unusual costume period for films. 

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costume
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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In a message dated 10/5/2005 6:11:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu writes:

It's set  in
the later 1860s which is a rather unusual costume period for films.  



Yes, the only other things I've seen in this silhouette are the fiancee's  
gowns in "The French Lieutenant's Woman" and "Scarlet"...the sequel to "Gone  
With the Wind" [what a dreadful idea THAT was!]
 
 
I'd love to see "The American"...someone a while back on the classical  music 
boards I'm on was saying how much they liked it....or was that "Our Mutual  
Friend" by Dickens?
 
Anyway...speaking of Dickens and Diana Rigg, there's a "Bleak House" I've  
never seen. BBC, I think. And a "Woman in White" [who wrote that one? a great  
little gothic yarn!] I did see and loved. Neither are on DVD or tape or 
anything  that I can find.
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BTW....
 
 
I went to DVDpricesearch.com [a very good site] to check and see if  any of 
these films were now available. It had been a while since I looked.
 
Voila!
 
"Bleak House"....with Diana Rigg and "Our Mutual Friend" are  both  available 
on DVD and a mere $9.98 at Deep Discount DVD....with free shipping in  the US.
 
"The American" was not there, but a search for Diana Rigg turned up the  1968 
Royal Shakespeare production of " A Midsummer Night's Dream" that is  
wonderful! Very primitive video-wise [actually kinda quaint] and in modern  
dress...sorta....for the 60s, but the best reading ever! After all, the play's  the 
thing. Ian Richardson's Oberon is the best I've ever seen. Judi Dench is  Titania 
with her boobs hanging out and painted green. Ian Holm is Puck. Helen  Mirren 
is Hermia. David Warner is Lysander. Diana Rigg is Helena. It's just  great!  
 
No "Woman in White" alas.
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henry James film
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"The American" is on DVD if anyone wants to see it.  It is hard to find 
on Amazon, there are a ton of films with "American" in the title, but it 
is there. You could try looking for the stars' names.

I have "The Woman in White" on VHS tape.  The novel is by Wilkie 
Collins. He also wrote "The Moonstone," and there is a good film of 
that, which I also have on tape.  "Lady Audley's Secret" is another good 
Gothic film.

The BBC "Bleak House" is on film too.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



> 
>Anyway...speaking of Dickens and Diana Rigg, there's a "Bleak House" I've  
>never seen. BBC, I think. And a "Woman in White" [who wrote that one? a great  
>little gothic yarn!] I did see and loved. Neither are on DVD or tape or 
>anything  that I can find.
>_______________________________________________
>
>  
>
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From: Galadriel of Lothlorien <galadrielfinwe@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question: Ageless Patterns 1891
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I have found that with many old corset patterns in
general, I have to take in the bust gores
considerably.  I didn't use this particular pattern,
but I did put together another ageless pattern corset
and that was the easiest way to fix the problem of the
overly-large bust.

I can't say that my measurements were THAT far off,
though.  I know in the past, that with other corset
patterns with so many pieces, I've ended up throwing a
whole piece away to get it to fit correctly.  Strange!
 If you have someone to help you fit it, try to see
where it is coming out too large and have them help
you pin it in to fit/cinch you.  That's the best
suggestion I can offer, which is probably obvious!  ;)

When I've made the Ageless Patterns work, I've always
been pleased with the results.  Good luck!




		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henry James film
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:43:37 -0400
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This is one of my favorite renderings of Mid Summer... I think I remember
seeing it actually on TV when it was done.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henry James film


> BTW....
>
>
> I went to DVDpricesearch.com [a very good site] to check and see if  any
of
> these films were now available. It had been a while since I looked.
>
> Voila!
>
> "Bleak House"....with Diana Rigg and "Our Mutual Friend" are  both
available
> on DVD and a mere $9.98 at Deep Discount DVD....with free shipping in  the
US.
>
> "The American" was not there, but a search for Diana Rigg turned up the
1968
> Royal Shakespeare production of " A Midsummer Night's Dream" that is
> wonderful! Very primitive video-wise [actually kinda quaint] and in modern
> dress...sorta....for the 60s, but the best reading ever! After all, the
play's  the
> thing. Ian Richardson's Oberon is the best I've ever seen. Judi Dench is
Titania
> with her boobs hanging out and painted green. Ian Holm is Puck. Helen
Mirren
> is Hermia. David Warner is Lysander. Diana Rigg is Helena. It's just
great!
>
> No "Woman in White" alas.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henry James film
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>a search for Diana Rigg turned up the
>1968
> > Royal Shakespeare production of " A Midsummer Night's Dream" that is
> > wonderful! Very primitive video-wise [actually kinda quaint] and in modern
> > dress...sorta....for the 60s, but the best reading ever! After all, the
>play's  the
> > thing. Ian Richardson's Oberon is the best I've ever seen. Judi Dench is
>Titania
> > with her boobs hanging out and painted green. Ian Holm is Puck. Helen
>Mirren
> > is Hermia. David Warner is Lysander. Diana Rigg is Helena. It's just
>great!


I was working at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre in 1968 when they were 
filming "Midsummer Night's Dream." Meeting a bright green Ian Holm in 
the car park, with his pointy ears and all was a bit startling, 
especially as I had known him for years! They all used to come back 
to the theatre to shower off the green makeup, as there were no 
facilities at Compton Wynyates, where they were filming. 
(Incidentally the man who invented the process for bald caps and 
pointy ears, as worn by Mr Spock, was the Wig Master at Stratford.)

Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fine linnen
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Status: RO

I look forward to hearing from Bjarne whether we might have access to this linen.  In the mean time.  Linen like this is available online from the Linen House, but is very expensive.  

http://www.thelinenhouse.com/EN/FRAMESET.asp?VS=TLHO&LA=ENGL<http://www.thelinenhouse.com/EN/FRAMESET.asp?VS=TLHO&LA=ENGL>

I have a set of their samples if you would like some guidance about the fineness.  My sample set is a few years old now, but I think I can give you some idea of what they are like.



Sg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anne Moeller<mailto:ladyanne@quik.com> 
  To: 'Historical Costume'<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:25 AM
  Subject: RE: [h-cost] fine linnen


  Where does one purchase this wonderful linen?
  Anne
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Bleak House, was  Henry James film
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There is about to be a new BBC version of "Bleak House" dramatised by Andrew Davis of "Pride and Prejudice" fame, with Gillian Anderson in the Diana Rigg role. The previous version was 1985 according to "Radio Times".
The version of "The Woman in White" shown on TV a few years back took considerable liberties with the plot, trying to be "relevant" by making Sir Percival Glyde's guilty secret to do with child abuse rather than that his parents weren't legally married.


 
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

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From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Bleak House, was  Henry James film
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Although the films of "The Woman in White" and "The  Moonstone" are both 
good, I think Wilkie Collins' novels are better in both cases.  The 
novels are mysteries; the suspense aspects, the unraveling of mysteries 
bit by bit, the false leads, are not really carried off as well in the 
films.  "The Woman in White," as a novel, is a Gothic as well as a 
mystery, and that doesn't come through as well in the film either.

Still, I'm glad the films were made, and I liked them.  I'll look at any 
film based on a novel I like unless it's really, really, really bad 
(according to reviews).  I even kind of liked the modernized "Great 
Expectations" with Gwyneth Paltrow (think Dickens Lite), aside from the 
music.

I am looking forward to the new "Bleak House."  Do you know when it will 
be coming out and especially, coming out on DVD?

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Kate M Bunting wrote:

>There is about to be a new BBC version of "Bleak House" dramatised by Andrew Davis of "Pride and Prejudice" fame, with Gillian Anderson in the Diana Rigg role. The previous version was 1985 according to "Radio Times".
>The version of "The Woman in White" shown on TV a few years back took considerable liberties with the plot, trying to be "relevant" by making Sir Percival Glyde's guilty secret to do with child abuse rather than that his parents weren't legally married.
>
>
>
>  
>
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Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> fran@lavoltapress.com 06/10/2005 19:09 >>> wrote

 
>.I am looking forward to the new "Bleak House."  Do you know when it will 
>be coming out and especially, coming out on DVD?

It starts on UK TV next week. I suppose it will come out on DVD after the whole series has been shown.

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bjarne at Gustavian feast
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Bjarne is the subject of the 6th row, center picture

www.my-drewscostumes.dk/bl17.htm

Sandy

At 01:00 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:54:50 -0700
>From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>
>Bjarne, first, I am sorry to hear of your broken wrist!  Lovely
>pictures...are you in any of them?  I thought it might be you in the
>yellow silk suit-but it is a little hard to tell with all the makeup?
>
>Sg

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Subject: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress and
 Cloak Cutter
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http://www.hedgehoghandworks.com/catalog/BKCT5048.shtml

It's me again. :)

Does anyone have this title, or have comments on the contents?  The 
description says "pattern diagrams and illustrations" but I'm wondering 
if it has real intructions or if it's just copies of old scale diagrams 
that I have to interpret myself. (Like a lot of other books)



Dawn


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
	and Cloak Cutter
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:19:44 -0500
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Yes, it is the original scale patterns and illustrations from tailoring
and fitting instructions originally printed. Unless the late Jean
Hunnisett has a successor to carry on  her Period Costume for Stage and
Screen series of books, I doubt we will see any more books on historic
patterns scaled to fit the modern wearer.

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Dawn
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 10:39 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
and Cloak Cutter

http://www.hedgehoghandworks.com/catalog/BKCT5048.shtml

It's me again. :)

Does anyone have this title, or have comments on the contents?  The
description says "pattern diagrams and illustrations" but I'm wondering
if it has real intructions or if it's just copies of old scale diagrams
that I have to interpret myself. (Like a lot of other books)



Dawn


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Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?
	Cheers!
		-sunny


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
	and Cloak ...
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In a message dated 10/7/2005 10:23:11 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu writes:

Yes, it  is the original scale patterns and illustrations from tailoring
and fitting  instructions originally printed. Unless the late Jean
Hunnisett has a  successor to carry on  her Period Costume for Stage and
Screen series  of books, I doubt we will see any more books on historic
patterns scaled to  fit the modern wearer.



And because the information on the "Princess" line of this period is so  
difficult to come by, it is a good source of information.  I would be  lost 
without it during my current design and build of "Doll's House".  It  also contains 
a detailed account of "etiquette" regarding the proper  time and place for 
different fashions of the time IE. Traveling, visiting,  promenading, opera, 
mourning (all three degrees), etc.  Cheryl  Odom
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jill Hadfield <jill@jigrah.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?
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<big grin>
I live in the Cleveland area in the North East of England - any good?

Jill

At 12:43 07/10/2005 -0600, you wrote:

>Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I 
>was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?
>         Cheers!
>                 -sunny
>
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JiGraH Resources  -  www.jigrah.co.uk


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Subject: [h-cost] Punto Tagliato Lace Commission...
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Hi all... working late and finally have a chance to update things... so
just in case anyone is interested in the state of the Punto Tagliato
Lace Commission...

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/LaceComm/

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It is awesome!  You are doing a fabulous job.
 
:)
~Kimberley
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
	and Cloak Cutter
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The new edition of Hecklinger's _Dress and Cloak Cutter_? It's typical 
of my old friend Robb Shep's books. (He recently moved back to San 
Francisco, in a neighborhood near mine! But Fred Struthers is still 
distributing Robb's books from Fort Bragg, for those who want to buy 
direct; the URL is www.rlshep.com.) The _Dress and Cloak Cutter_ 
contains a solid selection of women's pattern drafts primarily oriented 
to tailored clothes, probably drawn to true scale but I haven't done the 
math to check. Anyway it includes all the period drafting instructions 
and a supplementary section on clothing etiquette.

If you want sizing, our two-volume anthology _Fashions of the Gilded 
Age_, which contains several hundred patterns for women's garments from 
1877 through 1882, includes many patterns that use an apportioning scale 
system. Volume 2 also includes a dressmaking manual with information 
drawn from many sources. Both volumes contain extensive quotes from 
fashion columns and other sources on construction, fabrics, trimmings, 
what was worn when, etc.

Paper patterns, in the sense of Butterick et al, are just not a suitable 
production format for a book. Basically you've got a trade-off. You can 
buy individual full-sized patterns in modern sizes and get the 
convenience of that. Or you can buy a book, and enlarge and size the 
patterns (even if they are drawn to _a_ modern size, it's not 
necessarily the wearer's). And you get a much larger range of styles at 
a lower per-pattern price. But book and full-size pattern publishing 
formats can't do all the same things; think of a book's sizing and 
binding issues. Aside from the shelving issues that make a book larger 
than 8 1/2” by 11” significantly harder to sell to both bookstores and 
libraries, the more you put into a book for each pattern, the fewer 
patterns will fit in it. You also have to realize that if you want a 
book that is a direct reprint of an original source (like most of 
Robb's) or based on original sources (like ours), there is not an 
infinite number of original sources. The further back you go, the fewer 
there are. The best books in English with women’s clothing patterns that 
I know of (and I’ve been collecting for decades) are the Hecklinger that 
Robb reprinted (and Robb’s also collected for decades), and an extremely 
rare US source that we used for parts of _Fashions of the Gilded Age_. 
The German book that we used as a source for the apportioning scale 
patterns, and some others, is a bigger (many more patterns) and IMO a 
better book than Hecklinger’s. But, we had to pay a professional 
technical translator quite a lot. And I still had supervise her very 
closely using my knowledge of period patterns and clothing, and what's 
left of my college German. And there isn't an infinite number of foreign 
sources either, nor are they, as a general rule, hugely different from 
the ones in English.


Fran
Lavolta Press Books of Historic Patterns
http://www.lavoltapress.com

>
>Does anyone have this title, or have comments on the contents?  The
>description says "pattern diagrams and illustrations" but I'm wondering
>if it has real intructions or if it's just copies of old scale diagrams
>that I have to interpret myself. (Like a lot of other books)
>
>
>
>Dawn
>
>
>  
>
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Sorry, I meant not the best original books of patterns "for all time," 
but the best ones for women's clothes of the late 1870s and early 1880s, 
specifically; not before or after. 

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

> The best books in English with women’s clothing patterns that I know 
> of (and I’ve been collecting for decades) are the Hecklinger that Robb 
> reprinted (and Robb’s also collected for decades),

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
	and Cloak Cutter
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Lavolta Press wrote:

>  The _Dress and Cloak Cutter_ 
> contains a solid selection of women's pattern drafts primarily oriented 
> to tailored clothes, probably drawn to true scale but I haven't done the 
> math to check. Anyway it includes all the period drafting instructions 
> and a supplementary section on clothing etiquette.

Does it contain any assembly instructions?  I can usually figure out 
what the pattern pieces are in the miniature diagrams, I just have no 
idea how to assemble clothing from this era without it looking like a 
bad home ec project.



Dawn


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In a message dated 10/7/2005 7:49:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

I just  have no 
idea how to assemble clothing from this era without it looking  like a 
bad home ec project.



*************************
 
Oh c'mon! I'm sure your skills are more then adequate. 
 
The way I was taught:
One thing is, you have to trace all sewing lines and not rely on even seam  
allowances like a commercial pattern. Indeed, if the bodice is flat lined,  as 
they usually are, the best way is to trace on the flat lining, and then hand  
baste the lining to the fashion fabric while each piece is flat on a table 
[FLAT  lining after all] right on [or just outside] the traced sewing lines. This 
way  you can see the sewing lines on both sides of each pattern piece. [If 
the fabric  was thick, we would baste right on the traced lines, and sew just to 
the outside  of them...to make up for the thickness of the layers of fabric.]
 
You then line pieces up by sticking a pin through the two pieces being  sewn 
together to line them up. Then using ANOTHER pin to pin it in place before  
you take out the pin you used to line it up. Lots of balance marks help.
 
The other non-modern thing is you must set sleeves into the armseye. None  of 
this sewing the sleeve seams and underarm seam at the same time stuff. Again  
using the line-up-with-a-pin method and matching seams if they match and  
lots of balance marks. My friend who used to work with me on period movies would  
hand bast in sleeves after pinning if they were difficult, like Gigot or  leg 
o' mutton sleeves, before sewing them in by machine....but you  don't NEED to 
do this. 
 
All this basting is of course pulled out later.
 
And of course clipping the allowance of curved seams so they will lay flat  
when pressed open is a must.
 
I once saw a pair of 1890s bodices obviously made by the same TOC  
seamstress. The insides were beautiful. The curved seams of the 6 piece backs  were 
scalloped....not just clipped...like they were clipped every inch or so and  the 
right angles of the clipped seam allowance cut off in curves. Then  pressed 
open. Then the raw scalloped edges were bound in narrow magenta  seam binding. 
THEN a bone, covered in brown glazed cotton, was cross stitched  down the center 
of each seam, to the seam allowance, with magenta thread.  All those 
scalloped and bound and boned seams converging to about an inch apart  at the waist 
was a thing of beauty!
The front was just 2 pieces [as usual] with 2 darts on each side of CF  under 
the bust, again with boning cross stitch down each dart that  was clipped 
just once at the waist.
 
This is the way to do it. Time consuming? A bit. But, y'know....if  you're 
gonna do it anyway.....
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:55:13 -0400
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I don't live in Cleveland; I'm about an hour and a half southeast of it. 
You'll love the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Kent State University 
Fashion Museum!

kate

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Cleveland?


> Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I 
> was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?
> Cheers!
> -sunny
>
>
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From: Kitty Felton <basyefelton@floodcity.net>
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	and Cloak ...
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Ok, I just gotta ask.  first of all, what is a TOC seamstress?
then more importantly, was the seam binding sewed to the scallops in 
scallops or was it straight following where the seam was or would be?

thanks,  Kitty

AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 10/7/2005 7:49:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> dawn@reddawn.net writes:

>  
> I once saw a pair of 1890s bodices obviously made by the same TOC  
> seamstress. The insides were beautiful. The curved seams of the 6 piece backs  were 
> scalloped....not just clipped...like they were clipped every inch or so and  the 
> right angles of the clipped seam allowance cut off in curves. Then  pressed 
> open. Then the raw scalloped edges were bound in narrow magenta  seam binding. 
> THEN a bone, covered in brown glazed cotton, was cross stitched  down the center 
> of each seam, to the seam allowance, with magenta thread.  All those 
> scalloped and bound and boned seams converging to about an inch apart  at the waist 
> was a thing of beauty!
> The front was just 2 pieces [as usual] with 2 darts on each side of CF  under 
> the bust, again with boning cross stitch down each dart that  was clipped 
> just once at the waist.
>  
> This is the way to do it. Time consuming? A bit. But, y'know....if  you're 
> gonna do it anyway.....
> _______________

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I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were made. A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.
 
Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as the surcotte.
 
Anyone ever looked into this? They had to have been sewn on somehow, or else how would you prevent them from sliding down the arm?
 
I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric.
 
Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on the construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the construction. From what I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.
 
Annette M

		
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From: Marie Stewart <maricelt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
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Robin Netherton has written quite an explanation of tippets.  The
article is in the first Journal of Medieval Clothing and Textiles. 
Information there may help you in your efforts to produce your own. 
The article is scholarly, and not a how-to-make type.
Of course... you might have already read it.   ; >
Good Luck .
Hope this helps.
Mari / Bridgette

On 10/8/05, Kahlara <kahlara@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were made. A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.
>
> Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as the surcotte.
>
> Anyone ever looked into this? They had to have been sewn on somehow, or else how would you prevent them from sliding down the arm?
>
> I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric.
>
> Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on the construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the construction. From what I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.
>
> Annette M
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>  Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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Thank you Kimberley.  :> Mari / Bridgette

On 10/7/05, Chindora@aol.com <Chindora@aol.com> wrote:
> It is awesome!  You are doing a fabulous job.
>
> :)
> ~Kimberley
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From: "Sapphire And Sage" <sapphireandsage@neo.rr.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:37:02 -0400
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Hi Sunny!  :)

I'm in Wadsworth, which is 30 minutes South of Cleveland, just East of Rt. 
71.  Which part of Cleveland are you moving to?  Hope you're ready for the 
snow!  :)

 ~Rhonda
Sapphire & Sage - Renaissance Jewelry & Accessories
((¸¸.·' ...·' -:¦:- www.sapphireandsage.com
¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] Cleveland?
> Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I 
> was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?
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sunshine_buchler@agilent.com wrote:

> Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?
> 	Cheers!


But if you mean Cleveland Ohio, then you might also like to visit the 
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Beside the music and artist exhibits they 
have an entire hall dedicated to the customs the bands and artists wore 
on and off stage. Historical if you consider the 60's - 90's historical.


Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Oct  8 11:55:38 2005
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Kahlara wrote:

> I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were
> made.

As Mari noted, tippets are an interest of mine, and I have put essentially
everything I know about them into an article that appeared in the first
volume of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ (issued spring 2005), eds. Gale
Owen-Crocker and myself. For the long answer, I'd suggest you borrow or
ILL it; if you can't get a copy easily, e-mail me directly and we'll work
something out.

> A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied
> above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.

Short answer: Most of the "standard" sources are almost certainly wrong.

The most important conclusions (I'll leave the detailed analysis and
evidence to the article):

-- The tippets that look like a band around the upper arm with a hanging
streamer (which is what you seem to be asking about) were almost certainly
*not* separate wardrobe items, but rather decorative cuffs on
short-sleeved overgowns, made as part and parcel of the garment.

-- I can find no suggestion in any source that the bands/streamers were
linen, silk, or other fabric. There is substantial circumstantial evidence
that the depictions were meant to indicate fur -- in fact, an extension of
the (almost always white) fur lining typically used on these gowns.

> Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down
> version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as
> the surcotte.

This sounds like a description of certain other decorative sleeve endings
from near to the same time period. A thorough look at the visual sources
shows that sleeve endings pass through a sequence of stages, the
band-and-streamer tippet being only one style in that sequence.

Some modern costumers use the term "tippet" to refer to several different
types of hanging sleeve decorations, and then distinguish them by various
terms such as "integral tippets" or "banded tippets" or whatever -- though
I have seen a lot of inconsistency in the modern use of such terms, and
there is no parallel distinction in the (highly fluid and imprecise)
terminology of the period. The word "tippet" was used for a variety of
things, including hood tails.

> Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on the
> construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the
> construction.

There are (to my knowledge) no extant tippets. There are plentiful visual
sources of varying quality, rare written references to the style, and
(again to my knowledge) absolutely no line-item entries in inventories,
wills, shop lists, etc. As near as I can tell, they are never referred to
as separate items, only as a feature of a particular style of garment.

>  I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a
> cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric. ... From what
> I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.

It was probably more accurate than most of the other examples you may have
seen, as I suspect the band-and-streamer style developed as a formalized
version of the visual impression created by turning up a fur-lined short
sleeve with a hanging extension, which was the sleeve style immediately
preceding the appearance of the tippet. But *that* is my own speculation.

For the long version, I refer you to the article.

--Robin



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Is it possible that since sleeves were seamed on the sides and usually not
underneath that the sleeve seams are open from wrist to lower bicep. Top of
forearm sleeve is removed leaving the lower forearm sleeve. Role once
leaving the lining exposed?

De




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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Review? Women's Costume 1877-1885: The Complete Dress
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In a message dated 10/7/2005 10:37:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
basyefelton@floodcity.net writes:

first of  all, what is a TOC seamstress?
 
*************************
 
 
TOC = turn of the century. In this case, the 19th into the 20th  century.


then  more importantly, was the seam binding sewed to the scallops in 
scallops  or was it straight following where the seam was or would be?
The magenta seam binding was very much like commercial seam binding you'd  
find today, a narrow tape. It's supple enough to curve around the scallops and  
this is what it did.
 
Also the method for sewing the bones in was this: The casings were sewn  
down, not the bone [duh!] which was real whalebone. You always have the needle  
pointing in the opposite direction from the direction the sewing is going. In  
this case start at the top of the boning casing on the left edge and, with  the 
needle pointing up, take a stitch through it and the seam allowance. Now  
cross over the bone to the other [right] edge and , again, needle pointing  up, 
take a...oh 1/8"+ stitch...about 3/4" down. Then cross over to the left 3/4"  
down and take a stitch...then right...left...right...until you reach the end of 
 the casing.
 
This is a great way to add boning to an already made up bodice. Doing it in  
magenta thread I've seen in more than a couple of bodices. But I must say  
getting a needle through modern commercial boning casing is a bitch!
 
The bodices themselves were made of chocolate brown silk and trimmed with  
the same brown, cream and red silk brocade in a kind of  interlocking geometric 
pattern. One had 3/4 length  kinda full  sleeves with elaborate cuffs, and the 
other bishop sleeves. Buttons down  the CF and high necks. Both bodices 
stopped at the waist with tucked sashes  attached. The sashes and the way the 
brocade was used around the yolk area, down  the front and on the sleeves was 
different on each one. Obviously for  the same, now lost, skirt.
 
I saw these in a costume stock in St. Louis.



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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tippets
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, otsisto wrote:

> Is it possible that since sleeves were seamed on the sides and usually
> not underneath that the sleeve seams are open from wrist to lower
> bicep. Top of forearm sleeve is removed leaving the lower forearm
> sleeve.

Opening a long sleeve halfway up is one of several ways to achieve a
hanging-flap extension on a short sleeve, and you see variations on this
in the early 15th c. That technique is easy to formalize into a
squared-off pendant; there are examples of that style in Franco-Flemish
mss of about 1415-1440, including the Tres Riches Heures and the various
illustrated Bocaccio manuscripts.

However, the short-sleeve extensions you see most often in early-to-mid
14th c. art seem to have developed not directly from opening a long
sleeve, but from a different direction. Coming into the century, you start
with overgown sleeves that are slightly shorter and wider than the tight
undergown sleeves. Over time, you can see the overgown sleeve shorten
further; only then does it develop a hanging point off the bottom
(probably originally as an artifact of the rectalinear cutting method).
Then the piont lengthens into a pendant, growing longer over time into its
own design element. The fur lining is visible on the inside of the hanging
bit. The result is a half-length sleeve (to the bend of the elbow) with a
narrow hanging piece that is a continuation of the sleeve along the back,
but shows a fur surface from the front view (the exposed lining)

It's important to note that other things were happening with the
construction of long (undergown) sleeves in this period, specifically the
development of the set-in sleeve in the 1330s, which enabled the rotation
of the sleeve seam from underneath to the outside, and then the fitting of
the long sleeves all the way up (often with buttons) instead of just at
the lower forearm. So the "opened up long sleeve" you describe could
probably not have occurred during the earlier part of the development in
this century, when the typical construction method was a gusseted sleeve
with a seam along the bottom. This had all changed by the early 1400s.

> Role once leaving the lining exposed?

I can't recall seeing the rolling done on long sleeves that have been
opened halfway up (that would be early 1400s, and tippets were outdated by
then). However, going back to the period of 1350-1380, in which tippets
developed from pendent sleeves: Once you have the fur-lined pendent
sleeve, it's a reasonable thing to flip the bottom of the sleeve back to
form a cuff, showing off the fur lining. This casual alteration leaves the
pendant hanging a bit awkwardly and it would have been hard to maintain,
but the visual impact is distinct -- a fur band around the middle of the
upper arm (not down near the elbow) and a fur hanging piece. This is what
I think led to the formalization of the fur band-and-streamer style, which
would have been cut and sewn in that shape.

--Robin
sleeve addict

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Hi!  I'm in Canton, 60 miles south.  Cleveland is in the Barony of 
the Cleftlands - they are big & quite active.  Huge public library 
system, one of the best museums in the country, universities all over 
the place - LOTS of research opportunities!

Maria
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Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:36:17 -0400
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tippets
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Hi Robin--

How does one go about subscribing to "Medieval Clothing & Textiles" ?

Dame Catriona MacDuff / Monica Spence

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Robin Netherton
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:18 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets



On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Kahlara wrote:

> I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were
> made.

As Mari noted, tippets are an interest of mine, and I have put essentially
everything I know about them into an article that appeared in the first
volume of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ (issued spring 2005), eds. Gale
Owen-Crocker and myself. For the long answer, I'd suggest you borrow or
ILL it; if you can't get a copy easily, e-mail me directly and we'll work
something out.

> A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied
> above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.

Short answer: Most of the "standard" sources are almost certainly wrong.

The most important conclusions (I'll leave the detailed analysis and
evidence to the article):

-- The tippets that look like a band around the upper arm with a hanging
streamer (which is what you seem to be asking about) were almost certainly
*not* separate wardrobe items, but rather decorative cuffs on
short-sleeved overgowns, made as part and parcel of the garment.

-- I can find no suggestion in any source that the bands/streamers were
linen, silk, or other fabric. There is substantial circumstantial evidence
that the depictions were meant to indicate fur -- in fact, an extension of
the (almost always white) fur lining typically used on these gowns.

> Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down
> version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as
> the surcotte.

This sounds like a description of certain other decorative sleeve endings
from near to the same time period. A thorough look at the visual sources
shows that sleeve endings pass through a sequence of stages, the
band-and-streamer tippet being only one style in that sequence.

Some modern costumers use the term "tippet" to refer to several different
types of hanging sleeve decorations, and then distinguish them by various
terms such as "integral tippets" or "banded tippets" or whatever -- though
I have seen a lot of inconsistency in the modern use of such terms, and
there is no parallel distinction in the (highly fluid and imprecise)
terminology of the period. The word "tippet" was used for a variety of
things, including hood tails.

> Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on the
> construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the
> construction.

There are (to my knowledge) no extant tippets. There are plentiful visual
sources of varying quality, rare written references to the style, and
(again to my knowledge) absolutely no line-item entries in inventories,
wills, shop lists, etc. As near as I can tell, they are never referred to
as separate items, only as a feature of a particular style of garment.

>  I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a
> cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric. ... From what
> I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.

It was probably more accurate than most of the other examples you may have
seen, as I suspect the band-and-streamer style developed as a formalized
version of the visual impression created by turning up a fur-lined short
sleeve with a hanging extension, which was the sleeve style immediately
preceding the appearance of the tippet. But *that* is my own speculation.

For the long version, I refer you to the article.

--Robin



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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, monica spence wrote:

> How does one go about subscribing to "Medieval Clothing & Textiles" ?

It's an annual journal published in book form. It's assumed that most
subscribers will be libraries that will want to assemble a complete set,
though I suppose that there would be some way for individuals to subscribe
as well. Most people, though, will want to buy individual volumes based on
their interest in specific papers included.

The papers in each volume vary greatly by topic, period, and discipline.
It's our goal to have a broad range in each volume, representing early
medieval up through early modern (that's the preferred term now for
Elizabethan ;-) ), and a variety of approaches: art, literature,
documentary studies, archaeology, trade/economics, and experimental
reconstruction. The papers are peer-reviewed and academic in nature, not
focused on the how-tos of costuming, though we believe that costumers and
re-enactors who are interested in the historic aspects of their work will
find many of the papers of use. (I do encourage people to think of the
footnotes as good starting points for sources for further research in each
of the topics addressed; even if the focus of a particular paper is highly
specific, the footnotes will likely provide a far broader introduction to
the scholarly literature on that topic.)

You can see contents for Volume 1 here:
	http://www.boydell.co.uk/43831236.HTM

Volume 2 is here:
	http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

Depending on when you order, you can sometimes find good prices at Amazon
or B&N.

--Robin

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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:09:21 -0400
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tippets
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10510082210220.1108-100000@shell.nightowl.net>
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Thanks! I'll check it out.
Catriona/Monica

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Robin Netherton
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:22 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tippets



On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, monica spence wrote:

> How does one go about subscribing to "Medieval Clothing & Textiles" ?

It's an annual journal published in book form. It's assumed that most
subscribers will be libraries that will want to assemble a complete set,
though I suppose that there would be some way for individuals to subscribe
as well. Most people, though, will want to buy individual volumes based on
their interest in specific papers included.

The papers in each volume vary greatly by topic, period, and discipline.
It's our goal to have a broad range in each volume, representing early
medieval up through early modern (that's the preferred term now for
Elizabethan ;-) ), and a variety of approaches: art, literature,
documentary studies, archaeology, trade/economics, and experimental
reconstruction. The papers are peer-reviewed and academic in nature, not
focused on the how-tos of costuming, though we believe that costumers and
re-enactors who are interested in the historic aspects of their work will
find many of the papers of use. (I do encourage people to think of the
footnotes as good starting points for sources for further research in each
of the topics addressed; even if the focus of a particular paper is highly
specific, the footnotes will likely provide a far broader introduction to
the scholarly literature on that topic.)

You can see contents for Volume 1 here:
	http://www.boydell.co.uk/43831236.HTM

Volume 2 is here:
	http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

Depending on when you order, you can sometimes find good prices at Amazon
or B&N.

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
References: <NJEJJAKCDDIJCJLBNKFIAEHKCGAA.monicaspence@optonline.net>
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Have you read about tippets at 
http://www.regencygarderobe.com/Monthly%20QA%20Pages/Tippets.htm ?
Cheers, Aylwen

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.regencyreproductions.com


monica spence wrote:

>Hi Robin--
>
>How does one go about subscribing to "Medieval Clothing & Textiles" ?
>
>Dame Catriona MacDuff / Monica Spence
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
>Behalf Of Robin Netherton
>Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:18 AM
>To: Historical Costume
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
>
>
>
>On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Kahlara wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were
>>made.
>>    
>>
>
>As Mari noted, tippets are an interest of mine, and I have put essentially
>everything I know about them into an article that appeared in the first
>volume of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ (issued spring 2005), eds. Gale
>Owen-Crocker and myself. For the long answer, I'd suggest you borrow or
>ILL it; if you can't get a copy easily, e-mail me directly and we'll work
>something out.
>
>  
>
>>A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied
>>above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.
>>    
>>
>
>Short answer: Most of the "standard" sources are almost certainly wrong.
>
>The most important conclusions (I'll leave the detailed analysis and
>evidence to the article):
>
>-- The tippets that look like a band around the upper arm with a hanging
>streamer (which is what you seem to be asking about) were almost certainly
>*not* separate wardrobe items, but rather decorative cuffs on
>short-sleeved overgowns, made as part and parcel of the garment.
>
>-- I can find no suggestion in any source that the bands/streamers were
>linen, silk, or other fabric. There is substantial circumstantial evidence
>that the depictions were meant to indicate fur -- in fact, an extension of
>the (almost always white) fur lining typically used on these gowns.
>
>  
>
>>Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down
>>version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as
>>the surcotte.
>>    
>>
>
>This sounds like a description of certain other decorative sleeve endings
>from near to the same time period. A thorough look at the visual sources
>shows that sleeve endings pass through a sequence of stages, the
>band-and-streamer tippet being only one style in that sequence.
>
>Some modern costumers use the term "tippet" to refer to several different
>types of hanging sleeve decorations, and then distinguish them by various
>terms such as "integral tippets" or "banded tippets" or whatever -- though
>I have seen a lot of inconsistency in the modern use of such terms, and
>there is no parallel distinction in the (highly fluid and imprecise)
>terminology of the period. The word "tippet" was used for a variety of
>things, including hood tails.
>
>  
>
>>Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on the
>>construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the
>>construction.
>>    
>>
>
>There are (to my knowledge) no extant tippets. There are plentiful visual
>sources of varying quality, rare written references to the style, and
>(again to my knowledge) absolutely no line-item entries in inventories,
>wills, shop lists, etc. As near as I can tell, they are never referred to
>as separate items, only as a feature of a particular style of garment.
>
>  
>
>> I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a
>>cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric. ... From what
>>I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.
>>    
>>
>
>It was probably more accurate than most of the other examples you may have
>seen, as I suspect the band-and-streamer style developed as a formalized
>version of the visual impression created by turning up a fur-lined short
>sleeve with a hanging extension, which was the sleeve style immediately
>preceding the appearance of the tippet. But *that* is my own speculation.
>
>For the long version, I refer you to the article.
>
>--Robin
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Punto Tagliato Lace Commission...
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 08:36:29 -0400
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This project looks like it will keep you out of mischief! In real size, how
big are these pieces to be; or are the pics real size? You speak of sleeves
and chemise: will this piece show outside or will it remain only for
interior beauty?

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marie Stewart" <maricelt@gmail.com>
To: "HCostume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Brenda / Filipia"
<brendarich@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 5:11 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Punto Tagliato Lace Commission...


> Hi all... working late and finally have a chance to update things... so
> just in case anyone is interested in the state of the Punto Tagliato
> Lace Commission...
>
> http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/LaceComm/
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:44:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, A & J Garden wrote:

> Have you read about tippets at 
> http://www.regencygarderobe.com/Monthly%20QA%20Pages/Tippets.htm ?

:-) Different period, completely different clothing item from the 14th c.
detail the original poster asked about.

However, the fact that the word "tippet" was used around 1800 for a fur
accessory that had long hanging tails may suggest that the word retained a
"fur" connection, adding slightly to the evidence that the word had been
associated with a hanging fur item 400 years earlier.

--Robin

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From: Marie Stewart <maricelt@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Punto Tagliato Lace Commission...
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Hey there... the squares which hold the Punto Tagliato work are all
near to 4.5 inches in length and each little square is approximately
1/4 inch by 1/4 inch.   These panels of lace will decorate the
exterior of each sleeve, and only be seen  if peeking through an over
layer,  or when the lady removes her outer sleeves.  ;>

So pretty much - I suspect the full scope of the sleeves won't be seen
once the project is finished.

Mari / Bridgette

On 10/9/05, Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
> This project looks like it will keep you out of mischief! In real size, how
> big are these pieces to be; or are the pics real size? You speak of sleeves
> and chemise: will this piece show outside or will it remain only for
> interior beauty?
>
> Kathleen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marie Stewart" <maricelt@gmail.com>
> To: "HCostume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Brenda / Filipia"
> <brendarich@earthlink.net>
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 5:11 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Punto Tagliato Lace Commission...
>
>
> > Hi all... working late and finally have a chance to update things... so
> > just in case anyone is interested in the state of the Punto Tagliato
> > Lace Commission...
> >
> > http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/LaceComm/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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Does anyone know of an available source that diagrams a woman's dress 
from this period? (preferably online, but I'll take what I can get)


I'm looking for a basic diagram of something like this:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm

or this: (woman in lower right corner)

http://www.englishcountrydancing.org/17001705.jpg



I specifically need this decade, and unfortunately Patterns of Fashion 
doesn't have a dress of this cut.



Dawn


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Not online, unfortunately, but here are two possibilities in book form:
Jean Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen, 1500-1800" has a 
detailed pattern, description, and sewing guide to the mantua. Hill and 
Bucknell's "The Evolution of Fashion" also makes the attempt.

Also, here's a modern attempt at same:
http://www.cdny.org/christine.html

- Hope

Dawn wrote:

> Does anyone know of an available source that diagrams a woman's dress 
> from this period? (preferably online, but I'll take what I can get)
> 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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>Does anyone know of an available source that diagrams a woman's 
>dress from this period? (preferably online, but I'll take what I can 
>get)
>
>I'm looking for a basic diagram of something like this:
>
>http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm

      Someone diagrammed this gown!  She was a curator at the Met at 
the time, but was at another museum at the time of the presentation. 
At the Costume Society of America meeting held in Williamsburg 
(1999?) it was one of the presentations.  The curator was able to 
figure out the exact layout of the gown on the yardage because of the 
large size motifs of the bizarre silk.

      Does this sound familiar to anyone?  I'm trying to remember if 
the layout was given on a handout, or does anyone remember the name 
of the lady who did the research?  That might help Dawn track down 
the diagram.

      I do remember that it was mostly straight cuts, not a lot of 
curves, and no significant wasted fabric.

      You probably know this already, but wear it over stays!  Early 
18thC stays are a lot straighter than the 3rd & 4th quarters.

      -Carol
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Without checking the book, that looks like the dress diagrammed in the 
first edition of Blanche Payne's /_History of Costume: From the Ancient 
Egyptians to the Twentieth Century./_  The first edition has diagrams of 
43 garments that were replaced by text on 20th-century clothing in the 
second edition.  I'm going from memory, but I think the mantua Payne 
took a pattern from is in the Metropolitan Museum.  The photos at the 
bottom of the page might be from a Met exhibit catalog or website.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books of Historic Patterns
http://www.lavoltapress.com


> Not online, unfortunately, but here are two possibilities in book form:
> Jean Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen, 1500-1800" has 
> a detailed pattern, description, and sewing guide to the mantua. Hill 
> and Bucknell's "The Evolution of Fashion" also makes the attempt.
>
> Also, here's a modern attempt at same:
> http://www.cdny.org/christine.html
>
> - Hope
>
>
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I own Blanche Payne and just looked through it quickly. I don't see the gown
there and I looked through that section. I also checked the drafts section
and don't see it there. I wondered though cause this is my favorite book and
thought I had seen it there too. I have a 1965 copy. Think that makes a
difference?

Bice

On 10/9/05, Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> wrote:
>
> Without checking the book, that looks like the dress diagrammed in the
> first edition of Blanche Payne's /_History of Costume: From the Ancient
> Egyptians to the Twentieth Century./_ The first edition has diagrams of
> 43 garments that were replaced by text on 20th-century clothing in the
> second edition. I'm going from memory, but I think the mantua Payne
> took a pattern from is in the Metropolitan Museum. The photos at the
> bottom of the page might be from a Met exhibit catalog or website.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press Books of Historic Patterns
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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Lavolta Press wrote:

> Without checking the book, that looks like the dress diagrammed in the 
> first edition of Blanche Payne's /_History of Costume: From the Ancient 
> Egyptians to the Twentieth Century./_  

The one in Payne is dated 1690, but you're right, it's cut the same. 
Thanks.



Dawn



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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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Status: RO

Quoting Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>:

> I own Blanche Payne and just looked through it quickly. I don't see the gown
> there and I looked through that section. I also checked the drafts section
> and don't see it there. I wondered though cause this is my favorite book and
> thought I had seen it there too. I have a 1965 copy. Think that makes a
> difference?
>


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm

I've always *loved* this dress.  A very similar dress is on page 377 of
my edition of Blanche Payne -- pattern is on 553-555.

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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I didn't go that far back I was looking at 18th century. I did see the dress
on page 413 figure 434 and thought at fast glance that was it. But as it's
at the Copenhagen Museum that is unlikely.

On 10/9/05, Susan B. Farmer <sfarmer@goldsword.com> wrote:
>
> Quoting Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>:
>
> > I own Blanche Payne and just looked through it quickly. I don't see the
> gown
> > there and I looked through that section. I also checked the drafts
> section
> > and don't see it there. I wondered though cause this is my favorite book
> and
> > thought I had seen it there too. I have a 1965 copy. Think that makes a
> > difference?
> >
>
>
> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm
>
> I've always *loved* this dress. A very similar dress is on page 377 of
> my edition of Blanche Payne -- pattern is on 553-555.
>
> Susan
> -----
> Susan Farmer
> sfarmer@goldsword.com
> University of Tennessee
> Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:22:28 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
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>I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were made.

I have encountered things called tippets in several different centuries.  I 
had to read a couple of sentences to realize you were talking SCA-period 
tippets, instead of, say, Georgian ones.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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	<4349CB79.7000200@uvm.edu><4349D0A3.804@lavoltapress.com><7164eae90510091935o5adeaeb0pe88074a072d8b912@mail.gmail.com><20051009221002.01e5lzr9g7u2o0sc@www.goldsword.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:00:19 +0200
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Hi,
I have not Blanche Paynes book, but i think i must have it, is it still 
available?
If it is a danish mantua you are reffering to, it has a pattern draft of it 
in: Ellen Andersen "Moden i 1700 årene"
I also made this mantua once in a green dupioni, as i could not afford 
anything else at that time.
The danish mantua dates from 1695 - 1709 (because that timeperiod, the lady 
who owned it was married. It is made of a french silk patterned with large 
scale scrolls of leaves and flowers, heavily with goldthread and emerald 
green bottom. Has a large train and sleave cuffs are buttoned with two 
buttons. Sleaves have many layed down pleats wich so often is seen in 
Watteaus paintings. Cuffs are pleated also a la raquette. The fronts are 
pleated to the waist and the overskirt  is lifted up in the sides by cord 
and button back in the bodice. The back of the bodice is so beatifull with 
deep pleats.
If someone wants, i could help with a pattern, only i must warn you about 
the sleave curve is not correctly made because they did not fold all the 
pleats when they drew the curve.
This dress is the eldest whole garment in Denmark. It was exhibited last 
year on the national museum where they had an exhibition about the danish 
manorhouses. It also is very heavy because of the gold threads. In the 
underskirt it has pockets - yes real folded pockets in the side seams. It is 
my favourite museum dress.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua


I didn't go that far back I was looking at 18th century. I did see the dress
on page 413 figure 434 and thought at fast glance that was it. But as it's
at the Copenhagen Museum that is unlikely.

On 10/9/05, Susan B. Farmer <sfarmer@goldsword.com> wrote:
>
> Quoting Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>:
>
> > I own Blanche Payne and just looked through it quickly. I don't see the
> gown
> > there and I looked through that section. I also checked the drafts
> section
> > and don't see it there. I wondered though cause this is my favorite book
> and
> > thought I had seen it there too. I have a 1965 copy. Think that makes a
> > difference?
> >
>
>
> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm
>
> I've always *loved* this dress. A very similar dress is on page 377 of
> my edition of Blanche Payne -- pattern is on 553-555.
>
> Susan
> -----
> Susan Farmer
> sfarmer@goldsword.com
> University of Tennessee
> Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/hob_1991.6.1a,b.htm
>
> I've always *loved* this dress. A very similar dress is on page 377 of
> my edition of Blanche Payne -- pattern is on 553-555.

<<I didn't go that far back I was looking at 18th century. I did see the
dress
on page 413 figure 434 and thought at fast glance that was it. But as it's
at the Copenhagen Museum that is unlikely.>>

The pattern at the back is for the other Met mantua:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/eudr/ho_33.54a,b.htm

There is supposed to also be a cutting diagram for this item in Cut of
Women's Dress. I have wanted to get my hands on it to compare.

Arnold has a pattern for a 1708-09 mantua from Clive House Museum, pages
70-71 of Patterns of Fashion 1. There is a wrapping gown that was supposed
to be a reassembled mantua in there too.


There is an absolutely delightful Mantua fromt he very early 18thC in a
small out of print book. There is a cutting diagram for it too, however the
library copy I had did not have it, lost by some student or other. Sigh. I
don't think the pattern was there even when I went to the University!

michaela de bruce
with enough green velveteen to make mantua for many people, but is settling
on making just one;)
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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Status: RO

> If it is a danish mantua you are reffering to, it has a pattern draft of
it
> in: Ellen Andersen "Moden i 1700 årene"
> I also made this mantua once in a green dupioni, as i could not afford
> anything else at that time.

> If someone wants, i could help with a pattern, only i must warn you about
> the sleave curve is not correctly made because they did not fold all the
> pleats when they drew the curve.

I for one would dearly love to see the pattern, as I've been trying to
compare the various cutting techniques used in the mantua from this time.
I'm a little perplexed about the wool mantua pattern actually as it suggests
it is cut witha rounded shape at the side. I'd like to compare the Payne
diagram to the Waugh pattern (Cut of Women's Clothes) to see if they agree
on this matter.

If I could get my sticky paws on the English mantua from that wee book as
well.......

michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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At 12:52 10/10/2005, you wrote:
> > If it is a danish mantua you are reffering to, it has a pattern draft of
>it
> > in: Ellen Andersen "Moden i 1700 årene"
> > I also made this mantua once in a green dupioni, as i could not afford
> > anything else at that time.
>
> > If someone wants, i could help with a pattern, only i must warn you about
> > the sleave curve is not correctly made because they did not fold all the
> > pleats when they drew the curve.
>
>I for one would dearly love to see the pattern, as I've been trying to
>compare the various cutting techniques used in the mantua from this time.
>I'm a little perplexed about the wool mantua pattern actually as it suggests
>it is cut witha rounded shape at the side. I'd like to compare the Payne
>diagram to the Waugh pattern (Cut of Women's Clothes) to see if they agree
>on this matter.
>
>If I could get my sticky paws on the English mantua from that wee book as
>well.......


The English mantua you refer to is in a book 
called "18th Century Women's Costume at Blaise 
Castle House" by Helen Burnett and Cleo Witt. 
Printed by Bristol City Museum. However, the 
mantua is dated c.1738-41. It still has its matching petticoat.

Suzi



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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Bleak House, was  Henry James film
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Correction - "Bleak House" doesn't start this week after all. There was a feature in "Radio Times", but it looks as though the actual first episode will not be shown until later in the month.
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:24:40 -0600
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I've run into something similar, recently, with a current re-using of the
word "wimple" to describe a knitted thing ranging from a simple, oversized
tube that functions a bit like the turtlenecked part on a turtleneck sweater
(except that you can pull it up over your head, leaving your face exposed,
for warmth), or a hooded cowl, built similarly to a medieval hood with cowl
(although missing the liripipe).  It always causes this momentary "huh?"
with me, because I'm most familiar with the word as used to refer to the
woven/linen medieval women's item frequently paired with a veil. ;o)
--sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets


>
> >I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were made.
>
> I have encountered things called tippets in several different centuries.
I
> had to read a couple of sentences to realize you were talking SCA-period
> tippets, instead of, say, Georgian ones.
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>           www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
>             ((((   7 )))
>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
>            /----\   /---\))


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Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Hi,
> I have not Blanche Paynes book, but i think i must have it, is it still 
> available?

It is out of print and has been for a very long time (the 1st edition 
with diagrams) but you can find used copies online if you search on the 
title.



> If it is a danish mantua you are reffering to, it has a pattern draft of 
> it in: Ellen Andersen "Moden i 1700 årene"
...
> This dress is the eldest whole garment in Denmark. It was exhibited last 
> year on the national museum where they had an exhibition about the 
> danish manorhouses. It also is very heavy because of the gold threads. 
> In the underskirt it has pockets - yes real folded pockets in the side 
> seams. It is my favourite museum dress.
> 

I would love to see any pictures of the original or your reproduction, 
or any diagrams you might have.



Dawn

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In a message dated 10/9/2005 8:52:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

I  specifically need this decade, and unfortunately Patterns of Fashion  
doesn't have a dress of this cut.



But it DOES!
 
Vol. 1, 1660-1860 Pages 70 and 71.
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AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

  > But it DOES!
>  
> Vol. 1, 1660-1860 Pages 70 and 71.

Ah, thanks. Arnold was the first place I checked. Sigh, why did it have 
to be stuck in the back instead of in chronological order like every 
other garment in the book. :/




Dawn




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In a message dated 10/10/2005 1:41:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

Sigh,  why did it have 
to be stuck in the back instead of in chronological order  like every 
other garment in the book. :/





*****************
 
 
That sneaky Janet!
 
Actually I think it's part of an appendix. You'll notice the  corrections for 
the quilted 1745-60 outfit there too.
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:16:53 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] Tippets / wimples
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I recently had to straighten out a confusion, because Early Medieval 
(Viking/Saxon/Norman) re-enactors generally use the word wimple for a 
single piece headcovering that wraps and drapes round head and 
shoulders, while 14th/15th century types use it for the specific item 
covering the neck, worn with a separate veil.  Someone asked for 
instructions for one, and got instructions for the other, which made no 
sense to them at all!

Jean


Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com> wrote
>I've run into something similar, recently, with a current re-using of the
>word "wimple" to describe a knitted thing ranging from a simple, oversized
>tube that functions a bit like the turtlenecked part on a turtleneck sweater
>(except that you can pull it up over your head, leaving your face exposed,
>for warmth), or a hooded cowl, built similarly to a medieval hood with cowl
>(although missing the liripipe).  It always causes this momentary "huh?"
>with me, because I'm most familiar with the word as used to refer to the
>woven/linen medieval women's item frequently paired with a veil. ;o)
>--sue
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 4:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tippets
>
>
>>
>> >I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were made.
>>
>> I have encountered things called tippets in several different centuries.
>I
>> had to read a couple of sentences to realize you were talking SCA-period
>> tippets, instead of, say, Georgian ones.
>>
>>         CarolynKayta Barrows
>> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>>           www.FunStuft.com
>>
>>               //// \\\
>>              ////-@@\\\
>>             ((((   7 )))
>>              (((  <> ))))
>>                 )   ((((((
>>            /----\   /---\))
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Jean Waddie wrote:

> I recently had to straighten out a confusion, because Early Medieval
> (Viking/Saxon/Norman) re-enactors generally use the word wimple for a
> single piece headcovering that wraps and drapes round head and
> shoulders, while 14th/15th century types use it for the specific item
> covering the neck, worn with a separate veil.  Someone asked for
> instructions for one, and got instructions for the other, which made
> no sense to them at all!

I bumped into this very difference when editing an article by my
colleague, Gale Owen-Crocker, who works on Anglo-Saxon dress. My
experience is mostly in 14th c. We used the word differently, just as you
descibed, and went round and round for a while till we sorted it out.

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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In a message dated 10/10/2005 1:41:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

>  Vol. 1, 1660-1860 Pages 70 and 71.

Ah, thanks. Arnold was the first  place I checked


I must add, that it is [painfully] obvious from her pattern this gown was  
draped on a body or mannequin. No one would flat pattern anything and come up  
with such a pattern.
If you can find the Jean Hunnisett book, she has refined the basics of  the 
draped pattern to a very managable flat pattern [and you still have to drape  a 
lot]. It may not be accurate but....even if you go with the totally draped  
route...her ideas and directions are very informative and  helpful.
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From: traci@crimsonvision.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:54:08 +0000
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www.trulyvictorian.com

You'll have to order from their site but I think teir victorian patterns are the most beautiful and easy to use out there.

Traci

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Greetings everyone, 
> 
> I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law. She was chosen to be 
> on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown. Of all of the 
> mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose to use for a project 
> like this? Thanks for any assistance. 
> 
> Roscelin 
> _______________________________________________ 
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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> Greetings everyone,
>
>    I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was chosen
> to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown.
>  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose
> to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.

It depends on the true time frame...."Victorian" covers around 50 years of
fashion.  For later 1870's and later, Truly Victorian has nice patterns
that I hear are good.

For 1850's & 1860's there are a few out there but I don't know which ones
are good.  One of the major pattern companies has a good historical
pattern for 1850's by Martha McCain.  There are also patterns for the
corset and petticoats.  Try the reviews on this website:

http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/index.html

These are reviews of different patterns by people in my local Costumer's
Guild.  They might give you some good insight....

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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Well if you want "mainstream" I had a fairly easy time with any of
Simplicity's historical patterns. If you want still easy yet a bit more
accurate I'd suggest trulyvictorian.net <http://trulyvictorian.net> or
pastpatterns.com <http://pastpatterns.com> I also have had super ease with
lafnmoon.com <http://lafnmoon.com> 's new patterns.

bice

>
> > Greetings everyone,
> >
> > I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law. She was chosen to
> be
> > on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown. Of all
> of the
> > mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose to use for a
> project
> > like this? Thanks for any assistance.
> >
> > Roscelin
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Greetings everyone,

   I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was chosen to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown.  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.

Roscelin
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historic Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] KWCS report?
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So, can someone who went to KWCS in Kansas this weekend tell us how it
went?

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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roscelinlimoges@comcast.net wrote:

> Greetings everyone,
> 
>    I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was chosen to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown.  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.
> 

That would depend on which part of the "Victorian" period she wanted to 
represent. 1837-1901 is a BIG chunk of time and fashion. :)

Simplicity generally covers the American Civil War years well. 1861-65. 
I have used the men's patterns and found them to be very detailed, and 
quite  a bit of work. They also have two later dresses 1870-1880 ish, 
and an earlier pattern for 'Dickens carolers' (~1840) which are more 
'costume' than reproduction.

McCall's has a couple Civil War style ball gowns. Butterick's got a big 
hoop-skirt dress and a slimmer 1870ish dress. Again, these are more 
'costume' patterns than clothing reproductions, but they could work well 
for stage without being too much fuss.


Dawn



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Past Patterns are very good, their URL is www.pastpatterns.com.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books of Victorian and Edwardian Patterns
http://www.lavoltapress.com

roscelinlimoges@comcast.net wrote:

>Greetings everyone,
>
>   I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was chosen to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown.  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.
>
>Roscelin
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
>  
>
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From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] KWCS report?
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Robin Netherton wrote:

> So, can someone who went to KWCS in Kansas this weekend tell us how it
> went?

I had fun. I thought it was worth the entrance fee (and the two hour 
drive) , and I learned something in every class. There was a bit of a 
crush at registration, and somehow I missed the costume show after lunch 
(they started on time, who expected that?) I thought there was a good 
selection of vendors, a lot better quality merchandise than I recall 
seeing at any SCA event from back when I was playing regularly.

Let's see, I took a men's medieval wear class and Kass McGann's Irish 
class Saturday, missed Marc Carlson's shoe class as a result :(.  Sat in 
a good class on early Spanish men's wear, and one on Russian women's 
clothing and then there was the long drive home.

Sunday it was the Historic Replicas class, and somehow I missed the 
German clothing class after that, and went to another early Spanish one. 
  The pleatwork embroidery lecture that afternoon was pretty well 
researched, I thought, some real interesting material. The last two 
hours were kind of a bust, I didn't think much of either class, so I 
won't mention what they were. Likely the teachers were as tired as I was.

I bought some buttons and some silk for the stash.

Anyone know where next years event is going to be?



Dawn


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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:29:17 -0500
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Address correction -
http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/
and thanks for the sites Bice
De

-----Original Message-----
Well if you want "mainstream" I had a fairly easy time with any of
Simplicity's historical patterns. If you want still easy yet a bit more
accurate I'd suggest trulyvictorian.net <http://trulyvictorian.net> or
pastpatterns.com <http://pastpatterns.com> I also have had super ease with
lafnmoon.com <http://lafnmoon.com> 's new patterns.

bice


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:29:14 -0500
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Status: RO

What part of the Victorian era is she representing? McCalls and
Butterick carry patterns that have the general line and pretty modern
cut if she is just after the look, especially the 1840's-60's "Dickens'
Christmas Carol"

If she wants 1850's-1865 and to be authentic in cut, go for the Martha
McCain patterns for Simplicity that also include chemise, petticoat and
hoopskirt patterns. Certainly not simple, but if she is also interested
in reinacting or just a history buff, it might be worth the work. All
three companies carry 1870-ish bustle back dress patterns. Butterick
also has some Belle Epoque 1890-1905 pretty authentic-looking patterns
in their "Making History series.

Also, she'll want to fit in with the rest of the cast, unless she is
doing a solo turn, so what is everyone wearing?

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Dawn
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:13 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern

roscelinlimoges@comcast.net wrote:

> Greetings everyone,
> 
>    I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was
chosen to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian
gown.  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you
choose to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.
> 

That would depend on which part of the "Victorian" period she wanted to
represent. 1837-1901 is a BIG chunk of time and fashion. :)

Simplicity generally covers the American Civil War years well. 1861-65. 
I have used the men's patterns and found them to be very detailed, and
quite  a bit of work. They also have two later dresses 1870-1880 ish,
and an earlier pattern for 'Dickens carolers' (~1840) which are more
'costume' than reproduction.

McCall's has a couple Civil War style ball gowns. Butterick's got a big
hoop-skirt dress and a slimmer 1870ish dress. Again, these are more
'costume' patterns than clothing reproductions, but they could work well
for stage without being too much fuss.


Dawn



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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I have heard nothing but good stuff about their patterns--check reviews 
here:
http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/tv.htm

-E House

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <traci@crimsonvision.net>
> www.trulyvictorian.com
> You'll have to order from their site but I think teir victorian patterns 
> are the most beautiful and easy to use out there.

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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No problem. I have a few more pattern companies that do victorian someplace
if anyone wants them.
Bice

On 10/10/05, otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:
>
> Address correction -
> http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/
> and thanks for the sites Bice
> De
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Well if you want "mainstream" I had a fairly easy time with any of
> Simplicity's historical patterns. If you want still easy yet a bit more
> accurate I'd suggest trulyvictorian.net <http://trulyvictorian.net> <
> http://trulyvictorian.net> or
> pastpatterns.com <http://pastpatterns.com> <http://pastpatterns.com> I
> also have had super ease with
> lafnmoon.com <http://lafnmoon.com> <http://lafnmoon.com> 's new patterns.
>
> bice
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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Bice, it's always good to have options. Please post if you would.

Thanks,
LynnD

On 10/10/05, Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com> wrote:
> No problem. I have a few more pattern companies that do victorian someplace
> if anyone wants them.
> Bice
>
> On 10/10/05, otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:
> >
> > Address correction -
> > http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/
> > and thanks for the sites Bice
> > De
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Well if you want "mainstream" I had a fairly easy time with any of
> > Simplicity's historical patterns. If you want still easy yet a bit more
> > accurate I'd suggest trulyvictorian.net <http://trulyvictorian.net> <
> > http://trulyvictorian.net> or
> > pastpatterns.com <http://pastpatterns.com> <http://pastpatterns.com> I
> > also have had super ease with
> > lafnmoon.com <http://lafnmoon.com> <http://lafnmoon.com> 's new patterns.
> >
> > bice
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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I have a links page for my own use but some of the links on it are not all
too appropriate. So let me make up a new page that is G rated.

Bice

On 10/10/05, Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bice, it's always good to have options. Please post if you would.
>
> Thanks,
> LynnD
>
> On 10/10/05, Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com> wrote:
> > No problem. I have a few more pattern companies that do victorian
> someplace
> > if anyone wants them.
> > Bice
>
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I made the page and hopefully there are some peole haven't seen. They are
fairly well organized although this is a bare basics page. If I get time
I'll arrange it a bit better this week.

http://snipurl.com/icz2

Bice
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume pattern
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On Monday 10 October 2005 4:04 pm, Diana Habra wrote:
> > Greetings everyone,
> >
> >    I'm asking this question for my future mother-in-law.  She was chosen
> > to be on stage for a holiday concert and needs to sew a Victorian gown.
> >  Of all of the mainstream pattern companies, which one would you choose
> > to use for a project like this?  Thanks for any assistance.
>
> It depends on the true time frame...."Victorian" covers around 50 years of
> fashion.  For later 1870's and later, Truly Victorian has nice patterns
> that I hear are good.

Truly Victorian actually has a few patterns for 1850s and 1860s, though I 
admit the only ones I've tried are for the later years.  If you're 
interested, go to www.trulyvictorian.com and check out their line--it's 
organized by time period.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly
with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI."--Bram Cohen
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> The English mantua you refer to is in a book
> called "18th Century Women's Costume at Blaise
> Castle House" by Helen Burnett and Cleo Witt.
> Printed by Bristol City Museum. However, the
> mantua is dated c.1738-41. It still has its matching petticoat.

I just found my livejournal with my list of extant early mantua (as opposed
to the very stylised later mantua) and found the book I had seen it in:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pinkdiamond/334570.html
Title: Women's costumes 1600-1750, [by] Zillah Halls.
Published: London, H.M.S.O., 1969.
Other Author(s): Halls, Zillah.
I didn't manage to snaffle the date of the mantua but I can read the date of
the stomacher as being 1720-30. The petticoat looks to be a quilted tube
basically.
The text I can make out says:
"... open robe worn over a separate corset and separate skirt was
established. The elaborately-arranged skirt, pinned or buttoned back, is
occasionally though not frequently found throughout the first half of the
18th century; there are four examples in the London Museum."
(view of the back of the mantua and petticoat)
"13 stomacher 1720-30, (no.[??])
The stomacher was a separate triangular piece, usually embroidered, which
filled the space in the front of the bodice."
(view of the front of the Mantua, pettcoat and stomacher.

I adore this example. It's so very simple but effective. The stomacher has a
fine pattern embroidered with horizontal lines.



Unfortunately the image on the Sally Queen and Associates page has gone, I
think it is in the 2000 calendar. I'm going to email to ask if this is so. I
seem to recall it being in the colletcion of the Royal Ontaria Museum, but
there is no info on their site.


regards,
michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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michaela wrote:

> 
> I just found my livejournal with my list of extant early mantua (as opposed
> to the very stylised later mantua) and found the book I had seen it in:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/pinkdiamond/334570.html

Ooooh, more pictures, thank you!

> 
> Unfortunately the image on the Sally Queen and Associates page has gone, I
> think it is in the 2000 calendar.

It is , I have just checked. Also the blue one from LA (?) is in the 
1998 calendar.



Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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> > I just found my livejournal with my list of extant early mantua (as
opposed
> > to the very stylised later mantua) and found the book I had seen it in:
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/pinkdiamond/334570.html
>
> Ooooh, more pictures, thank you!

No worries:) I've been on a break from studying this style as I've been
emersed in the start of the 20thC for a show I'm in and have been working on
costumes from the same period. But I have been planning on making either a
plain wool one (oooohhh my mauve wool flannel....) or one from my scads of
green velveteen;)

There are a few other items from the same time that I found but haven't put
into my "memories" on my lj.

> > Unfortunately the image on the Sally Queen and Associates page has gone,
I
> > think it is in the 2000 calendar.
>
> It is , I have just checked. Also the blue one from LA (?) is in the
> 1998 calendar.

Oooh, do you have any info on the mantua in the SQ&A calendar? I'd love to
know more before bombarding museums with questions;)

If you look in my memories section of my lj, you'll find a section for
mantua and related dress of the time.
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=pinkdiamond

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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michaela wrote:

> 
> Oooh, do you have any info on the mantua in the SQ&A calendar? I'd love to
> know more before bombarding museums with questions;)

The 2000 calendar says it's in the ROM, Toronto: "Mantua, early 1700, 
English or Dutch. Silk damask woven with exotic foliate motif. Museum 
purchase."

also: "The damask mantua is one of the handful extant, and is cut with 
the sleeves and gown in one piece. It employs the full width of the 
cloth, and is fitted with pleats and tucks over the shoulders and centre 
back. The long train is draped up at each side to reveal the reverse of 
the fabric. "



Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
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Hi Michaela

I have the pattern cut for this mantua also if you are interrested. From the 
small catalogue womens fashion from 1600 1750. I baught this many years ago 
on Victoria & Albert, my very first visit to London.
Let me know if i can help you with this.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua


>> The English mantua you refer to is in a book
>> called "18th Century Women's Costume at Blaise
>> Castle House" by Helen Burnett and Cleo Witt.
>> Printed by Bristol City Museum. However, the
>> mantua is dated c.1738-41. It still has its matching petticoat.
>
> I just found my livejournal with my list of extant early mantua (as 
> opposed
> to the very stylised later mantua) and found the book I had seen it in:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/pinkdiamond/334570.html
> Title: Women's costumes 1600-1750, [by] Zillah Halls.
> Published: London, H.M.S.O., 1969.
> Other Author(s): Halls, Zillah.
> I didn't manage to snaffle the date of the mantua but I can read the date 
> of
> the stomacher as being 1720-30. The petticoat looks to be a quilted tube
> basically.
> The text I can make out says:
> "... open robe worn over a separate corset and separate skirt was
> established. The elaborately-arranged skirt, pinned or buttoned back, is
> occasionally though not frequently found throughout the first half of the
> 18th century; there are four examples in the London Museum."
> (view of the back of the mantua and petticoat)
> "13 stomacher 1720-30, (no.[??])
> The stomacher was a separate triangular piece, usually embroidered, which
> filled the space in the front of the bodice."
> (view of the front of the Mantua, pettcoat and stomacher.
>
> I adore this example. It's so very simple but effective. The stomacher has 
> a
> fine pattern embroidered with horizontal lines.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately the image on the Sally Queen and Associates page has gone, I
> think it is in the 2000 calendar. I'm going to email to ask if this is so. 
> I
> seem to recall it being in the colletcion of the Royal Ontaria Museum, but
> there is no info on their site.
>
>
> regards,
> michaela de bruce
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
> -- 
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> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 12 12:39:31 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
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So, can someone who went to KWCS in Kansas this weekend tell us how it
went?

--Robin
=========================================
 
I went with Dawn, and I had a blast. I got to do Marc Carlson's shoe demo, which was awesome. Not that I'll ever attempt to make a medieval shoe, mind you, but his class was great and the shoes he had as examples were beautiful. And now I know what grave wax is. :)
 
I took Kass McGann's German class, which was very entertaining and informative. I'm a complete newbie to German clothes, so some of it was a little over my head, but it was worthwhile anyway. And I absolutely couldn't believe it when Dawn told me Kass had done all the cutwork on her costume by hand. Totally droolworthy.
 
Later that afternoon I was in the other German class. I can't remember the instructor's name but she said she used to be a member of this list. She disagreed with some of Kass's conclusions, but she had several really cool books to look at and reconstructions of her version of the famous Cranach dress. 
 
And finally, the pleatwork class was really great. She should write a book. Someone on this list was asking about pleated smocks a few months ago -- something about the way the sleeves were placed so there wasn't a shoulder seam but the torso part was pleated into the neck. Whoever that was, e-mail me, and I'll give you the contact info for the teacher of this class, because she had documentation of what you were talking about. 

Tea Rose
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From: Marie Stewart <maricelt@gmail.com>
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Sounds like it was well worth the trip.  Thank you for sharing.  If I
may ask... would you also share the pleat work contact information...
I don't want to swamp the poor lady ; > but I would love to see what
she has found.

Many thanks,
Mari / Bridgette

>
> And finally, the pleatwork class was really great. She should write a book. Someone on this list was asking about pleated smocks a few months ago -- something about the way the sleeves were placed so there wasn't a shoulder seam but the torso part was pleated into the neck. Whoever that was, e-mail me, and I'll give you the contact info for the teacher of this class, because she had documentation of what you were talking about.

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Subject: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?
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Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine is 
about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a more 
water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my old one 
for dying, but that will only last for so long.

Sg
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?
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>From everything I've read front loader use a lot less water.  We are thinking of getting one so we can reduce our water bill.  The one where I work appears to use less water.  They do an excellent job of washing the clothes and have been around long enough that all the bugs are out of them.  I want mine on a 6" stand though as I have trouble bending down that far all the time.
 
Brin Kendall

WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com> wrote:
Anyone have any experience with this? My top loader washing machine is 
about to croak. I live in the desert and would like to go with a more 
water efficient machine. Some have suggested just keeping my old one 
for dying, but that will only last for so long.

Sg
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Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:37:50 -0500
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Well, I went and had a lot of fun.  I have some pictures online at my blog 
at http://www.livejournal.com/users/marccarlson/  (under 11 October) -- I'll 
put some more up when I get the other rolls developed Friday.  (And yes, I 
have a blog, I had to get the account - long story, and as long as I have it 
I might as well use it).

I have now gotten to meet Kass face to face, which was nice since we've 
intermittantly corresponded for years (we'd been at MTA one year at the same 
time, but didn't know who the other was).

There were some good classes, most of which I didn't take :)  I was out 
taking pictures.  My wife's been really excited by the tablet woven edging 
and has been whipping through things right and left.

Well worth the trip.

Marc


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Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:19:57 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: "J.E. Marshall" <jemarshall@fuse.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?
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well, I am in Cincinnati, the opposite corner of the state from Cleveland, 
but the Hungarian Heritage Museum downtown is worth a walk through.  They 
have some excellent folk costumes on display.

Jennifer
At 07:58 PM 10/8/05 -0400, you wrote:



>Hi!  I'm in Canton, 60 miles south.  Cleveland is in the Barony of
>the Cleftlands - they are big & quite active.  Huge public library
>system, one of the best museums in the country, universities all over
>the place - LOTS of research opportunities!
>
>Maria


what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?  Anon.

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Yep, done it in a Kenmore high-capacity front loader with linen using 
Dylon machine dye from the UK.
Worked great.

liz young

WickedFrau wrote:
> Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine is 
> about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a more 
> water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my old one 
> for dying, but that will only last for so long.
> 
> Sg
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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Elizabeth Young wrote:

> Yep, done it in a Kenmore high-capacity front loader with linen using 
> Dylon machine dye from the UK.
> Worked great.

I've done it with regular Dylon dye; worked great.  I put the dye & 
other additives in first, let it roll for a minute or two to mix, then 
put in the clothes.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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Start shopping now as washer will most likely die when you least expect
it. Unless it is an old reliable thing and you have a relative,
neighbor, connection that can fix it for much less than the cost of a
new machine... Perhaps Consumer Reports has some online comparisons for
washers for quality and reliability, but probably you will want to just
go out and price compare. Of course, today's models all have efficiency
tags--how much power/water used. My little top loader(18 lbs capacity)
is 15 years old and I only do a few loads a week, but I got a great deal
on it because it was a overmanufactured mustard yellow body made for the
European market with American market insides. I didn't want to take a
chance on a used washer.  I haven't had a problem with it ... Yet. I do
hope it lasts until the new landlord installs new pay washers and dryers
. Colored washer and dryer sets are all the thing now, but you might be
able to pick up a discontinued plain white model with a better quality
for the same money.

If you have two connections, by all means keep the old one for
dyeing(wish I could do that) 

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of WickedFrau
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 1:18 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?

Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine is
about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a more
water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my old one
for dying, but that will only last for so long.

Sg
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?
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Front-loaders are standard in the UK, therefore Dylon machine dye is 
made to work in them.  I do this all the time, never had any trouble.

Jean


Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net> wrote
>Yep, done it in a Kenmore high-capacity front loader with linen using 
>Dylon machine dye from the UK.
>Worked great.
>
>liz young
>
>WickedFrau wrote:
>> Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine 
>>is  about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a 
>>more  water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my 
>>old one  for dying, but that will only last for so long.
>>  Sg
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
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>>
>
>
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...? Or,
	Dyeing in a front loading washer?
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:55:36 -0400
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I really had to do a double-take on this subject line....

"Dying in a front end loader" to me, means that somebody died in a horrible industrial accident!  A
"front end loader" is like a big tractor with a scoop on the front for moving dirt around and
loading dump trucks. It has nothing to do with laundry!

Thank you for the morning chuckle!

::Linda;:


-----Original Message-----
 On Behalf Of WickedFrau
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 2:18 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?

Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine is 
about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a more 
water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my old one 
for dying, but that will only last for so long.

Sg



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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cleveland?
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:04:38 -0400
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Last summer we planned to go to the Cleveland Museum of Art as part of our vacation. Good thing I
called ahead to plan. I was told by the nice lady at the CMA that all but 3 exhibits were boxed up
and in storage, including all of the medieval armor and weapons stuff, and art. Seems they are
moving into a new building and doing a lot of serious remodeling there. I asked when they planned
to be fully re-opened and was told 2009. Yes, FOUR years! I'm sure parts will be back before then,
but if anyone is planning on going to the CMA, calling ahead is a Very Good Idea. 

Pax,
::Linda::


 On Behalf Of Ailith Mackintosh
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cleveland?

I don't live in Cleveland; I'm about an hour and a half southeast of it. 
You'll love the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Kent State University 
Fashion Museum!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com>
sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Cleveland?


> Hi! I'm moving from the San Francisco area to Cleveland in 2 weeks, and I 
> was wondering if there is anyone else on this list in the Cleveland area?
> Cheers!
> -sunny


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Oh geeze!  Smack my forhead with heel of hand!  Is that SMFWHOH in computer lingo?   =-O 


Linda Rice wrote:

>I really had to do a double-take on this subject line....
>e!
>
>::Linda;:
>
>
>  
>
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Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer software or by hand.

Penny E. Ladnier
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The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
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At 08:51 PM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid 
>it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail 
>them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer 
>software or by hand.
>
>Penny E. Ladnier


Hi Penny,

I know there are several high end embroidery design software that does 
this. They can do one color and the more expensive ones do 4-color 
versions. I also see a few lower priced versions are also doing this now. 
Do a google search on "embroidery design software photostitch" and you will 
find several.

I can't answer as to which ones would be best, as I have yet to play with 
them myself. Someday I keep saying to myself, someday.

Kimiko


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
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At 08:33 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>And finally, the pleatwork class was really great. She should write a 
>book. Someone on this list was asking about pleated smocks a few months 
>ago -- something about the way the sleeves were placed so there wasn't a 
>shoulder seam but the torso part was pleated into the neck. Whoever that 
>was, e-mail me, and I'll give you the contact info for the teacher of this 
>class, because she had documentation of what you were talking about.
>
>Tea Rose


Oh yes please share that info on the list as well. I've been having a doozy 
of a time trying to figure out how Henry VIII's smocks are done without 
resorting to raglan style sleeves. Any info that can hopefully shed light 
would be wonderful.

Kimiko


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Subject: Pleated smocks/shifts etc Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
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> Oh yes please share that info on the list as well. I've been having a
doozy
> of a time trying to figure out how Henry VIII's smocks are done without
> resorting to raglan style sleeves. Any info that can hopefully shed light
> would be wonderful.

http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary/index.htm
The Mary of Hungary chemise has the arm gussets go right to the neckline,
you can see the front panels and sleeves are smocked and the gussets left
unsmocked. The back is also smocked I believe.

I'm sure I've linked from there to Cynthia Virtue's site which hosts the
pattern diagram of her chemise and gown.

I made a version of it using the same measurements (Mary and I appear to
have been very similar in height and width...) You can't even tell that the
gussets are there with pleated neckline. I made a backing that was about an
inch deep to secure my pleats to. When it was just a row of fine pleats they
were even less visible.

If you mean high necked shirts.. there are several extant that use a basic
rectangle cut with a slit for the neck, gussets at the shoulders for shape
and the body gathered/pleated to the neckline. I suspect there is a fair
amount of artistic licence in some portraits... The Sture shirt though does
look very fully gathered/pleated though.

michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com





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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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I downloaded a demo version of X-Stitch Studio from here:
http://www.ursasoftware.com/studio.htm

I have been playing with it and you can only get details of images when you 
go into 18+ count aida cloth.  I am putting an old fashion plate into the 
software and can't get details of the face.

I am looking for anyone's suggestions as to your experience with this type 
software.

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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Long ago I bought acetate sheets that were gridded. Lay the sheet over the 
image and photocopy and you've got a pattern.

Works really well if you're good at matching colors.

kate
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 11:51 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software


Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid 
it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail 
them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer 
software or by hand.

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
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At 10:10 PM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>If you mean high necked shirts.. there are several extant that use a basic
>rectangle cut with a slit for the neck, gussets at the shoulders for shape
>and the body gathered/pleated to the neckline. I suspect there is a fair
>amount of artistic licence in some portraits... The Sture shirt though does
>look very fully gathered/pleated though.


Hello Michaela,

I have seen the Mary of Hapsburg images from Cynthia Virtue's site, but 
didn't know of your images and info. Thank you for sharing those with me.

I was speaking of the high necked shirts. One is this image of Henry, where 
you can see the decorative(?) black lines along one shoulder (his right), 
and it appears smocked into the neck collar, or it may be the texture of 
the painting.
http://college-de-vevey.vd.ch/auteur/livres/connaissance/tomeX/Holbein_henry8.jpg
I have a rather clear copy in one of my books, but not having seen this 
painting in person, am not sure if smocking lines, or brush strokes.

This image from Joos van Cleve also is high necked and appears smocked.
http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Henry2.jpg
I only wish I had a better image to look at. My book shows it in B&W, and 
not very well.

And a third earlier image of Henry VIII, from an unknown artist in 1521. 
The only image I have is from Norris, Plate X B, which is a B&W image of 
the original painting. The neck is lower, rounded, and attached to a 
decorative strip of something, but definitely fully smocked from one side 
to the other side of the wide front opening of the doublet & robe?

With your hint of the Sture shirt (I knew of the suits, but not the shirt), 
I did some google searching and found a possible pattern and detail photos 
of the Sture shirt, and info on the woman's reproduction shirt. However, I 
am not sure what I am looking at with the detailed images, as there doesn't 
appear to be an overall image of the original shirt to put it all into context.
http://swein.campus.luth.se/lia/garb/browndoublet/shirt.html
But it gave me a name of a journal to hunt down, "Journal of the Royal 
Armoury" Vol IV: 8-9 (häfte 8-9) The article is titled "Stureskjortorna" 
and it was written by Anna-Maja Nylén. Do you or anyone else have this, 
seen this, and/or know what language it may be written in? I am presuming 
not English. Since you mentioned the shirt, do you have more info on the 
Sture shirt as well?

And I found this image of a boy's shirt, c1550.
http://www.kipar.demon.co.uk/elizabethan/boyshirt1540s2.jpg
http://www.kipar.demon.co.uk/elizabethan/boyshirt1540s.jpg
Which came from here:
http://www.kipar.demon.co.uk/renaissance.html

Which reminded me to look at Albrecht Durer's works, which provide 
tantalizing glimpses of the shirts near the neck, but even with the book I 
have and large images, not enough detail to determine what's going on.

But this is more than I had before, so thank you for your comments and 
hints that continue my path to finding out more on Henry's shirts.

Kimiko



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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:49:20 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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>Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid 
>it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail 
>them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer 
>software or by hand.

Yes.  I found several, and I liked the HobbyWare one best 
(http://www.hobbyware.com/).  I downloaded a demo for free and played with 
it for a few days - all of the programs I found let me do that.  But the 
HobbyWare one had more range of possibilities than the other ones did, and 
fewer limitations on my own fiber-artsy requirements.  It's the only 
program I tried where I could save the things I did in demo mode (I saved 
in .jpg format instead of in their proprietary format).  I liked the 
interface better even tho I will probably never use most of the things the 
program does.  It also cost more than the other ones I found did.

There's also a thing called something like Trans Graph X which will allow 
you to do your own gridding manually.  It's a set of different gauge grids 
printed on Mylar, which you put onto your image and go from there.  I've 
had one of these since before I ever got a computer.  It's great if you can 
use it, and was really cheap to buy.

You might also check with your local cross-stitch/needlepoint store.  The 
owner of my local one says she has a favorite, and I suspect some of the 
kits she sells are a product of that program.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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I found another software demo, and it does capture great detail.  It is 
called DigiStitch.  The free demo is at:
http://www.digistitch.com/down.htm

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com

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Status: RO

 
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> kimiko@kimiko1.com 13/10/2005 08:41 >>>

>With your hint of the Sture shirt (I knew of the suits, but not the shirt), 
>I did some google searching and found a possible pattern and detail photos 
>of the Sture shirt, and info on the woman's reproduction shirt. However, I 
>am not sure what I am looking at with the detailed images, as there doesn't 
>appear to be an overall image of the original shirt to put it all into context.
>http://swein.campus.luth.se/lia/garb/browndoublet/shirt.html
>But it gave me a name of a journal to hunt down, "Journal of the Royal 
>Armoury" Vol IV: 8-9 (häfte 8-9) The article is titled "Stureskjortorna" 
>and it was written by Anna-Maja Nylén. Do you or anyone else have this, 
>seen this, and/or know what language it may be written in?
 
Uppsala is in Sweden. "Stureskjortorna" is Swedish for "The Sture shirts".

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Subject: [h-cost] soles for slippers? - OT
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Hello all

not terribly historic but I thought you'd be more
likely to know about this. 

I'm looking for soles that could be used in making
indoor slippers. I had an idea about making some
pointy velvet slip ons for Christmas gifts and thought
a thin covered sole would be sufficient. I've not been
able to find something online though - has anyone
tried to make them before?

Apologies for OT etc., 
yours gratefully,

Katherine in Scotland, so UK suppliers would be best:-)

"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright


	
	
		
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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:57:46 -0600
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*snort*
My first thought, on seeing the subject, was "she's planning on shuffling
off her mortal coil in some highway-building equipment?" <weg>
I've heard a number of people say that they keep an old washer for that
purpose, or for scouring fleeces, but it's not something with which I have
personal experience, as I live in an apartment and am forced to use a
laundramat.  My dyeing projects are all done in stove-top pots, with an
occasional foray into the nuker (kool-aid dyeing on a small scale).
--Sue (in Montana)

----- Original Message -----
From: "WickedFrau" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: [h-cost] OT-Dying in a front end loader...?


> Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine is
> about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a more
> water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my old one
> for dying, but that will only last for so long.
>
> Sg


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Xstitch photo conversion...
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At 11:11 PM -0600 10/12/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>  >Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid
>>it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail
>>them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer
>  >software or by hand.

Yes there are several programs that will convert a photo into a 
chart. Most need massive tweaking to remove the random odd 
color...there is a Photoshop plug in that is wandering the net as 
shareware as well.
Ta
Carol
-- 
Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness!
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:22:51 +0200
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Hi,
In Modelejon, about male fashion in Sweden there is a picture of the 
shirt.It was worn by Nils Sture 24. of may 1567.
Further reading in swedish is Nylén A-M,. Stureskjortorna i Livrustka,,aren, 
vol. IV, hæft 8-9, Stockholm 1948.
The shirt has a wide neckband collar. The body is gathered to the shirt all 
way round and has another ruffle gathered at the top of the shirt. Neckband 
and Ruffles wich also sits on the sleaves are embroidered with black silk,
The linnen is 80 cm, wide and all the width has ben used for the front and 
back piece.
No smocking, sorry!!!

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?




Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> kimiko@kimiko1.com 13/10/2005 08:41 >>>

>With your hint of the Sture shirt (I knew of the suits, but not the shirt),
>I did some google searching and found a possible pattern and detail photos
>of the Sture shirt, and info on the woman's reproduction shirt. However, I
>am not sure what I am looking at with the detailed images, as there doesn't
>appear to be an overall image of the original shirt to put it all into 
>context.
>http://swein.campus.luth.se/lia/garb/browndoublet/shirt.html
>But it gave me a name of a journal to hunt down, "Journal of the Royal
>Armoury" Vol IV: 8-9 (häfte 8-9) The article is titled "Stureskjortorna"
>and it was written by Anna-Maja Nylén. Do you or anyone else have this,
>seen this, and/or know what language it may be written in?

Uppsala is in Sweden. "Stureskjortorna" is Swedish for "The Sture shirts".

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From: "Megan M." <megan@benchite.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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What about the software products like PC Stitch?  They cost around $30 and
do the same thing - I've got a several yar old version around here
somewhere....... I think I got it originally at Best Buy, but I'm sure you
can order it over the internet.
-Megan

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Ailith Mackintosh
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 2:21 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software

Long ago I bought acetate sheets that were gridded. Lay the sheet over the 
image and photocopy and you've got a pattern.

Works really well if you're good at matching colors.

kate
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 11:51 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software


Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid 
it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail 
them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer 
software or by hand.

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] soles for slippers? - OT
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In a message dated 10/13/2005 6:46:55 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk writes:

indoor  slippers. I had an idea about making some
pointy velvet slip ons for  Christmas gifts and thought
a thin covered sole would be sufficient. I've  not been
able to find something online though - has anyone
tried to make  them before?




I would consider leather.  Suede has more grip.  You can make the  entire 
slipper including the foot and then use leather glue, Gorilla, Barge  (different 
kinds of strong glue, don't know the brands in the U.K.).  It's  nice to work 
from a foot tracing but if it is meant to be a surprise, maybe  not.  It's 
nice to have a foot tracing as most people have different shaped  feet and you 
can actually tailor each slipper to the intended foot.  One of  my students had 
a great shoe making book a couple of years back but I don't  remember the 
name.  Lots of cute velvet types.  And I don't consider  it off-topic as many 
re-enactors would like suggestions for period foot  ware.
 
Cheryl Odom
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] soles for slippers? - OT
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I've made several pairs of indoor mid-19th century slippers using medium-weight 
suede leather for the soles. I purchased the suede from a leather supplier; it was 
very economical - I got ten pairs of soles from an $8.00 piece of suede. I attached 
the uppers to the soles using my sewing machine.

I've also made slippers using cork soles. I purchased cork tiles from a building 
supply store, cut the soles, bound them with a bias strip of silk, then sewed the 
uppers to the binding by hand. You can also find the cork tiles at office supply 
stores.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2 -5, 2006




On Thu Oct 13  6:04 , katherine sanders <katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk> sent:

>I'm looking for soles that could be used in making
>indoor slippers. I

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I don't remember who, but at least one person had mentioned a book/catalogue about these tapestries. This is the result I finally got from a book search site.
 
"THE LADY AND THE UNICORN. 
Erlande-Brandenburg. 
Editions de la Reunion, 1989. VG+. Softcover."
 
It doesn't give any other information than that, and I don't know enough about the different editions. Is this the shorter version or the full length edition?
 
Thanks,
 
Annette M

		
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hello. 

how do i do bodice making, as i have never made one before, its for an 1869s
day dress, what sort of material may be suitable



jessica
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Thanks for all the replies and info! I haven't read the article, but from what Robin has said so far, I definitely should! I'll check the library at the university first, but short of buying it (which I may do anyway) I don't think anywhere local to me would have it available. If I can't locate it I will email you Robin.

Thanks again,
 
Annette M

Robin Netherton has written quite an explanation of tippets.  The
article is in the first Journal of Medieval Clothing and Textiles. 
Information there may help you in your efforts to produce your own. 
The article is scholarly, and not a how-to-make type.
Of course... you might have already read it.   ; >
Good Luck .
Hope this helps.
Mari / Bridgette

 
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Kahlara wrote:

> I have found very little info so far on tippets and how they were
> made.

As Mari noted, tippets are an interest of mine, and I have put 
essentially
everything I know about them into an article that appeared in the first
volume of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ (issued spring 2005), eds. 
Gale
Owen-Crocker and myself. For the long answer, I'd suggest you borrow or
ILL it; if you can't get a copy easily, e-mail me directly and we'll 
work
something out.

> A couple of sources I found said it was a strip of white linen tied
> above the elbow. Others said it was sewn on.

Short answer: Most of the "standard" sources are almost certainly 
wrong.

The most important conclusions (I'll leave the detailed analysis and
evidence to the article):

-- The tippets that look like a band around the upper arm with a 
hanging
streamer (which is what you seem to be asking about) were almost 
certainly
*not* separate wardrobe items, but rather decorative cuffs on
short-sleeved overgowns, made as part and parcel of the garment.

-- I can find no suggestion in any source that the bands/streamers were
linen, silk, or other fabric. There is substantial circumstantial 
evidence
that the depictions were meant to indicate fur -- in fact, an extension 
of
the (almost always white) fur lining typically used on these gowns.

> Yet other things I have seen and read make it seem like a scaled down
> version of the wide belled sleeves and made from the same fabric as
> the surcotte.

This sounds like a description of certain other decorative sleeve 
endings
from near to the same time period. A thorough look at the visual 
sources
shows that sleeve endings pass through a sequence of stages, the
band-and-streamer tippet being only one style in that sequence.

Some modern costumers use the term "tippet" to refer to several 
different
types of hanging sleeve decorations, and then distinguish them by 
various
terms such as "integral tippets" or "banded tippets" or whatever -- 
though
I have seen a lot of inconsistency in the modern use of such terms, and
there is no parallel distinction in the (highly fluid and imprecise)
terminology of the period. The word "tippet" was used for a variety of
things, including hood tails.

> Does anyone know if there is any extant examples that are clear on 
the
> construction? Or any resources that may be specific on the
> construction.

There are (to my knowledge) no extant tippets. There are plentiful 
visual
sources of varying quality, rare written references to the style, and
(again to my knowledge) absolutely no line-item entries in inventories,
wills, shop lists, etc. As near as I can tell, they are never referred 
to
as separate items, only as a feature of a particular style of garment.

>  I saw one version at an SCA event that had them like a lining on a
> cuff and then turned up to show the contrasting fabric. .. From what
> I have seen, the SCA example I saw was not accurate.

It was probably more accurate than most of the other examples you may 
have
seen, as I suspect the band-and-streamer style developed as a 
formalized
version of the visual impression created by turning up a fur-lined 
short
sleeve with a hanging extension, which was the sleeve style immediately
preceding the appearance of the tippet. But *that* is my own 
speculation.

For the long version, I refer you to the article.

--Robin



> How does one go about subscribing to "Medieval Clothing & Textiles" ?

It's an annual journal published in book form. It's assumed that most
subscribers will be libraries that will want to assemble a complete 
set,
though I suppose that there would be some way for individuals to 
subscribe
as well. Most people, though, will want to buy individual volumes based 
on
their interest in specific papers included.

The papers in each volume vary greatly by topic, period, and 
discipline.
It's our goal to have a broad range in each volume, representing early
medieval up through early modern (that's the preferred term now for
Elizabethan ;-) ), and a variety of approaches: art, literature,
documentary studies, archaeology, trade/economics, and experimental
reconstruction. The papers are peer-reviewed and academic in nature, 
not
focused on the how-tos of costuming, though we believe that costumers 
and
re-enactors who are interested in the historic aspects of their work 
will
find many of the papers of use. (I do encourage people to think of the
footnotes as good starting points for sources for further research in 
each
of the topics addressed; even if the focus of a particular paper is 
highly
specific, the footnotes will likely provide a far broader introduction 
to
the scholarly literature on that topic.)

You can see contents for Volume 1 here:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/43831236.HTM

Volume 2 is here:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

Depending on when you order, you can sometimes find good prices at 
Amazon
or B&N.

--Robin


		
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From: Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc
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Hi Kimiko,

Incidentally I do have this journal book, sent over
about a year ago now. I had meant to translate it from
Swedish, but other projects kept leaping into my way.
It contains all 4 shirts from the Sture men found at
Uppsala, complete with conservation diagrams on their
construction. I can copy stuff from it if you wish.
Give me a couple months to get the glut of stuff I
have going on out of the way, and I might be able to
do some translating as well. *I* personally don't
speak the language fluently, but I have a friend in
Saffle, Sweden that helps me along. I understand the
museology terms, he gives me the raw information.
Between the two of us, we come up with some fairly
usable translations.

Kathy 

> But it gave me a name of a journal to hunt down,
> "Journal of the Royal 
> Armoury" Vol IV: 8-9 (häfte 8-9) The article is
> titled "Stureskjortorna" 
> and it was written by Anna-Maja Nylén. Do you or
> anyone else have this, 
> seen this, and/or know what language it may be
> written in? I am presuming 
> not English. Since you mentioned the shirt, do you
> have more info on the 
> Sture shirt as well?


It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it.
-Ivan Panin


	

	
		
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Xstitch software
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At 8:08 AM -0600 10/13/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>I have been playing with it and you can only get details of images when you
>go into 18+ count aida cloth.  I am putting an old fashion plate into the
>software and can't get details of the face.
>
>I am looking for anyone's suggestions as to your experience with this type
>software.

It has to do with the resolution--the high the thread count the finer 
the detail. Traditional Xstitch designs are rather 'crude' and 
blocky...the modern patterns of angels etc are on a high count cloth 
and are rather large...Think pixels and screen resolution--more is 
better! And yes it all gets down to 1s and 0s <VVBG>
And then there are the designs that use *2* colors of thread in the needle...
TA
Carol
-- 
Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness!
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book on Lady and the Unicorn Tapestries
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This site explains the various catalogues fairly well.  Hope it helps.  
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1220_gothic/tapestry_resources.php

Saragrace


Kahlara wrote:

> 
>It doesn't give any other information than that, and I don't know enough about the different editions. Is this the shorter version or the full length edition?
> 
>Thanks,
> 
>Annette M
>
>		
>  
>

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book on Lady and the Unicorn Tapestries
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Kahlara wrote:

> I don't remember who, but at least one person had mentioned a
> book/catalogue about these tapestries. This is the result I finally
> got from a book search site.
>  
> "THE LADY AND THE UNICORN. 
> Erlande-Brandenburg. 
> Editions de la Reunion, 1989. VG+. Softcover."
>  It doesn't give any other information than that, and I don't know
> enough about the different editions. Is this the shorter version or
> the full length edition?

I know of only one version of this book; it's the Cluny Museum
publication. Comes in both English and French. Many, many pictures
including a color fold-out of each tapestry and various close-ups. I wish
I'd bought two because I have used mine so much the binding has fallen to
pieces -- and that's not a reflection on the book quality, just on my use
of it!

--Robin

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] history of bullion stitches
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Have any of you any idears how old Bullion stitch is?
My own research has gotten me back to 1770ies-80ies.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/egeskov.htm
Would be glad if any know some more?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

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Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 08:33 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
> 
>>  because she had documentation of what you 
>> were talking about.
>>> 
> Oh yes please share that info on the list as well. I've been having a 
> doozy of a time trying to figure out how Henry VIII's smocks are done 
> without resorting to raglan style sleeves. Any info that can hopefully 
> shed light would be wonderful.


www.bellomarisco.com/smocking.php

This is the website of the gal who taught the class on pleatwork. I 
don't know if folks here are already familiar with it or not, but it was 
new to me. I don't see her shirt diagrams on the site, just the 
pleatwork and stitching. The handouts from the class had assembly diagrams.



Dawn



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Hi Jessica,


That's a really big question. Maybe we could be of more help if we had
some more details. How experienced are you at sewing? Did you take sewing
in school? Have you done much sewing since school? What style of bodice
is it? Ball gown? Day dress? What is this for? Is it for Halloween or for
a historic reenactment of some sort? How strictly do you want it to be
historically accurate? The more detailed your question, the better the
folks here can give you the answer you are looking for.

Karen
Seamstrix
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At 16:28 13/10/2005, you wrote:
>Kimiko Small wrote:
>
>>At 08:33 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>  because she had documentation of what you were talking about.
>>Oh yes please share that info on the list as well. I've been having 
>>a doozy of a time trying to figure out how Henry VIII's smocks are 
>>done without resorting to raglan style sleeves. Any info that can 
>>hopefully shed light would be wonderful.
>
>
>www.bellomarisco.com/smocking.php
>
>This is the website of the gal who taught the class on pleatwork. I 
>don't know if folks here are already familiar with it or not, but it 
>was new to me. I don't see her shirt diagrams on the site, just the 
>pleatwork and stitching. The handouts from the class had assembly diagrams.




Great site - thanks for the link.

Suzi 


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From: "jessica lynn potter" <mrscrinoline@aol.com>
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Status: RO

hi hun

well i am reasonably good at needle craft, but have not ever made crinoline
ballgowns before, this dress is an 1860s day type dress, ,i wantto make
historic type dresses, but they do not have to be historically accurate down
to fine detail,s,

i want to make nice looking crinoline style dresses, especially the hugh
type crinoline,s. 

bodice design is my failure  i have never made more than 3 in my life except
for modern bodices or blouses, and i have no idea as to a starting point.

i thought of using the polyester taffetta fabric, for the dress itself

im being a pain to you all with these question,s i know, sorry, but is there
anywhere where i can get patterns for bodices or complete dresses please



hugs 



jessica 

 

-------Original Message-------

 

From: Karen R Bergquist

Date: 10/13/05 08:33:42

To: h-costume@indra.com

Subject: Re: [h-cost] bodice design

 

Hi Jessica,

 

 

That's a really big question. Maybe we could be of more help if we had

some more details. How experienced are you at sewing? Did you take sewing

in school? Have you done much sewing since school? What style of bodice

is it? Ball gown? Day dress? What is this for? Is it for Halloween or for

a historic reenactment of some sort? How strictly do you want it to be

historically accurate? The more detailed your question, the better the

folks here can give you the answer you are looking for.

 

Karen

Seamstrix

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h-costume@mail.indra.com

http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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At 00:54 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>hi hun
>
>well i am reasonably good at needle craft, but have not ever made crinoline
>ballgowns before, this dress is an 1860s day type dress, ,i wantto make
>historic type dresses, but they do not have to be historically accurate down
>to fine detail,s,
>
>i want to make nice looking crinoline style dresses, especially the hugh
>type crinoline,s.
>
>bodice design is my failure  i have never made more than 3 in my life except
>for modern bodices or blouses, and i have no idea as to a starting point.
>
>i thought of using the polyester taffetta fabric, for the dress itself
>
>im being a pain to you all with these question,s i know, sorry, but is there
>anywhere where i can get patterns for bodices or complete dresses please

You could start here.
http://www.farthingales.on.ca/patterns.php

And you could try looking for "Truly Victorian"

I personally use "Cut of Women's Clothes" by Norah Waugh

"Patterns of Fashion" by Janet Arnold (3 volumes - check which you need)

"Period Costume for Stage and Screen" by Jean Hunnisett (5 volumes - 
again check which you need)

These are all patterns mostly form original garments. You will need 
to enlarge them. Arnold and Waugh are the original sizes, Hunnisett 
is adapted to fit an American size 12/English 14 or 12 depending on 
what sizing system you use!!)

Suzi





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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jessica lynn potter" <mrscrinoline@aol.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] bodice design


hi hun
well i am reasonably good at needle craft, but have not ever made crinoline
ballgowns before, this dress is an 1860s day type dress, ,i wantto make
historic type dresses, but they do not have to be historically accurate down
to fine detail,s,
i want to make nice looking crinoline style dresses, especially the hugh
type crinoline,s.
bodice design is my failure  i have never made more than 3 in my life except
for modern bodices or blouses, and i have no idea as to a starting point.
i thought of using the polyester taffetta fabric, for the dress itself
im being a pain to you all with these question,s i know, sorry, but is there
anywhere where i can get patterns for bodices or complete dresses please
hugs
>jessica

OK so I'm guessing you're actually interested in the early to mid 1860s as 
by the time you get to the end of the 1860s you're getting into the begining 
of the bustle era rather than big crinolines. You might be interested in 
Simplicity's range of 'civil war' patterns 
http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?cat=4&type=19&sec=0&id=57&startrow=1 
they take a couple of modern shortcuts where it doesn't show (like using 
snaps to attach the collar instead of sewing it on and unpicking the 
stitches when you want to wash it) but the overall details are pretty 
accurate.
HTH
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/

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I second the recommendation for the Simplicity Civil War patterns. I have found them to be pretty easy to follow with full-sized patterns that you don't need to scale up or down. Simplicity has a nice ballgown pattern as well as a couple that could be fancied up for use as party dresses.
 
Happy sewing!
 
Karen
Penhalion

-- "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@tpg.com.au> wrote:


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jessica lynn potter" <mrscrinoline@aol.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] bodice design


hi hun
well i am reasonably good at needle craft, but have not ever made crinoline
ballgowns before, this dress is an 1860s day type dress, ,i wantto make
historic type dresses, but they do not have to be historically accurate down
to fine detail,s,
i want to make nice looking crinoline style dresses, especially the hugh
type crinoline,s.
bodice design is my failure  i have never made more than 3 in my life except
for modern bodices or blouses, and i have no idea as to a starting point.
i thought of using the polyester taffetta fabric, for the dress itself
im being a pain to you all with these question,s i know, sorry, but is there
anywhere where i can get patterns for bodices or complete dresses please
hugs
>jessica

OK so I'm guessing you're actually interested in the early to mid 1860s as 
by the time you get to the end of the 1860s you're getting into the begining 
of the bustle era rather than big crinolines. You might be interested in 
Simplicity's range of 'civil war' patterns 
http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?cat=4&type=19&sec=0&id=57&startrow=1 
they take a couple of modern shortcuts where it doesn't show (like using 
snaps to attach the collar instead of sewing it on and unpicking the 
stitches when you want to wash it) but the overall details are pretty 
accurate.
HTH
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/

_______________________________________________
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In a message dated 10/13/2005 12:04:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mrscrinoline@aol.com writes:

i want  to make nice looking crinoline style dresses, especially the hugh
type  crinoline,s. 


You mean huge, instead of hugh I take it. It has been my experience that  
huge hoops were reserved mainly for evening wear, regardless of what movies  
show. Still, this doesn't mean you can't have a nice big day dress, just not  HUGE.
 


bodice design is my failure  i have never made more than 3 in  my life except
for modern bodices or blouses, and i have no idea as to a  starting point.
 
Fortunately, 1860's  day bodices are not difficult to get together.  They 
usually open down the CF and have 2 darts under the bust on each side. So  the 
front is just 2 pieces. [even if the front is gathered, it will have a  lining 
with the darts] The backs are usually 3 pieces, but sometimes  this is faked 
and the back is really one piece cut on the fold! Sleeves at not  difficult 
either, though kinda full.
 
I suggest you get a Past Patterns bodice pattern. It comes with  instructions 
and is pretty easy. There's a commercial [Butterrick?] pattern  with a jacket 
type of bodice that is very good looking. I seem to remember  the model being 
in grey and burgundy on the front of the envelope.
 
Some things that will make your bodice appear very period  are:
 
Wear a corset! Simplicity makes some patterns I think. I  personally find 
Past Patterns 1845-1860 [#708] corset divine. A beautiful  shape! [I add a bone 
between each bone on the pattern, but you don't have to do  this to get the 
results.]
The bodice must fit snug. 
A small armseye that goes up higher under the arm than  clothes today.
Accessories! [lace collar, embroidered under sleeves, a bonnet]
 
Skirts are a breeze. Just strait panels, usually 3  lengths of the fabric 
[45" wide] sewn selvage to selvage, and pleated onto  the bodice. This requires a 
side front closure that is hidden in the return of  one of the side front 
pleats. But you can make the bodice [CF closure] and skirt  [CB closure] 
separate, especially if there is a peplum. Or put hooks pointing  down on the bodice 
and corresponding thread bars on the skirt waistband to  keep them together.
 
But get a pattern and follow the instructions and you will  have no problem. 
Just come back here and ask questions. We love to pontificate  [well I do, 
obviously!] about our vast....vast I tell you!... knowledge and  help out here!
 
Have fun!




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From: Cin <cinbarnes@gmail.com>
To: h-cost <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] OT-Dyeing in a front end loader...?
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>WickedFrau wrote:
>> Anyone have any experience with this?  My top loader washing machine
>>is about to croak.  I live in the desert and would like to go with a
>>more water efficient machine.  Some have suggested just keeping my
>>old one for dying, but that will only last for so long.
>>  Sg

I have one of the high-efficiency machines and love it.  However,
water based dye-stuffs require water.  My machine doesnt use enough to
activate the dye.  The tablespoon or so of detergent often required as
part of the process is a different formulation than HE detergents
required by the machine.  Enjoy your experimenting.  Do call the dye
companies. You wont be the first to ask for tips (they had none for me
back 3 yrs ago) and you may even get the benefit of their
reformulations or suggestions.

For myself, I borrow the services of a standard machine where the qty
of water, formulation of detergent recommended by the dye mfgr is as
expected. Much less trouble.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com

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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo & cross-stitch software
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Quoting Penny Ladnier <penny@costumegallery.com>:

> Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and 
> grid it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this 
> if you mail them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in 
> some computer software or by hand.

There's a program called PC-Stitch.  I have it, but I've never used it. 
As soon as I graduate .....

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] bodice design
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In a message dated 10/13/2005 12:07:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mrscrinoline@aol.com writes:

this  dress is an 1860s day type dress,


If you are in the US, you can use the Martha McCain Simplicity  patterns.  
They are carefully researched, yet sized to the regular  commercial pattern 
standard.  Poly taffeta is okay for a costumey type  ensemble; however, for a day 
dress you could use a lightweight wool or even a  cotton print.  There are 
many good mid-century repro cotton prints  available. 
 
Silk, not a synthetic, would be de rigueur for a period-authentic  evening 
dress.  Granted, they can be expensive and hard to find if you  aren't near a 
large fabric store.
 
Ann Wass
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:56:30 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Xstitch software
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>It has to do with the resolution--the high the thread count the finer the 
>detail. Traditional Xstitch designs are rather 'crude' and blocky...the 
>modern patterns of angels etc are on a high count cloth and are rather 
>large...Think pixels and screen resolution--more is better! And yes it all 
>gets down to 1s and 0s <VVBG>

I saw a historical piece of needlepoint at somebody's house.  It had three 
sizes of stitches.  Most of the piece was the size I would expect for 
needlepoint.  Some of the detail parts were half of that gage, and the 
faces were one quarter of that gage.  My guess is that they did most of the 
work over four threads, some of it over like two threads, and the faces 
over like one thread.  This might be a solution for your fashion plate dilemma.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: Jill Hadfield <jill@jigrah.co.uk>
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I use "easy cross"  from Fulford software.   Reasonably cheap and very easy 
to use.
You can specify Anchor, DMC etc. for the thread list and the chart can be 
printed at your preferred size.  I usually print charts at 8 or 9 squares 
to the inch, it makes them easy to follow.
A demo version is available from their website  www.easycross.co.uk

Jill

At 23:51 12/10/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>Does anyone know the name of some software that will take a photo and grid 
>it for cross-stitch?  I know there are people who will do this if you mail 
>them the photo.  But I wonder if they are doing this in some computer 
>software or by hand.
>
>Penny E. Ladnier
>Owner,
>The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
>Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
>Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
>_______________________________________________
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JiGraH Resources  -  www.jigrah.co.uk


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hey everyone



thank you all for the help on this matter, i am not that well into big
dresses like crinolines yet to be able to cope with this alone, and your
help has been very gratefully recieved on this, and will keep you all
updated with the progress i will hopefully make



hugs



jessica
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Subject: smocking Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
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> www.bellomarisco.com/smocking.php
>
> This is the website of the gal who taught the class on pleatwork. I
> don't know if folks here are already familiar with it or not, but it was
> new to me. I don't see her shirt diagrams on the site, just the
> pleatwork and stitching. The handouts from the class had assembly
diagrams.

lol! I was about to go hunt down her site as I recalled her smocking
recreations.

A most informative site to be sure. I found it while hunting down portraits
by Ludger tom Ring d.J. as I'm trying to make a dress in the style of one of
his sitters.

michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
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At 06:22 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>Hi,
>In Modelejon, about male fashion in Sweden there is a picture of the 
>shirt.It was worn by Nils Sture 24. of may 1567.
>Further reading in swedish is Nylén A-M,. Stureskjortorna i 
>Livrustka,,aren, vol. IV, hæft 8-9, Stockholm 1948.
>The shirt has a wide neckband collar. The body is gathered to the shirt 
>all way round and has another ruffle gathered at the top of the shirt. 
>Neckband and Ruffles wich also sits on the sleaves are embroidered with 
>black silk,
>The linnen is 80 cm, wide and all the width has ben used for the front and 
>back piece.
>No smocking, sorry!!!
>
>Bjarne


Bjarne,

Thank you very much for that info. It really helps my current understanding 
of the photos I saw, and that it was not smocked.

Kimiko



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At 07:32 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Kimiko,
>
>Incidentally I do have this journal book, sent over
>about a year ago now. I had meant to translate it from
>Swedish, but other projects kept leaping into my way.
>It contains all 4 shirts from the Sture men found at
>Uppsala, complete with conservation diagrams on their
>construction. I can copy stuff from it if you wish.
>Give me a couple months to get the glut of stuff I
>have going on out of the way, and I might be able to
>do some translating as well. *I* personally don't
>speak the language fluently, but I have a friend in
>Saffle, Sweden that helps me along. I understand the
>museology terms, he gives me the raw information.
>Between the two of us, we come up with some fairly
>usable translations.
>
>Kathy


Hi Kathy,

Thank you so very much. Please take your time, as I understand the need to 
deal with current projects. I would love copies when you have more time, 
and any pertinent translations.

Kimiko


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At 03:31 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>Uppsala is in Sweden. "Stureskjortorna" is Swedish for "The Sture shirts".


Thank you Kate for that clarification.

Kimiko




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At 08:28 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>www.bellomarisco.com/smocking.php
>
>This is the website of the gal who taught the class on pleatwork. I don't 
>know if folks here are already familiar with it or not, but it was new to 
>me. I don't see her shirt diagrams on the site, just the pleatwork and 
>stitching. The handouts from the class had assembly diagrams.
>
>
>Dawn


Thank you Dawn for sharing that site. Her shirt info on 
http://www.bellomarisco.com/shirt.php was enlightening. I have also written 
to the teacher requesting more info.

Kimiko


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At 06:15 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>Yes there are several programs that will convert a photo into a chart. 
>Most need massive tweaking to remove the random odd color...there is a 
>Photoshop plug in that is wandering the net as shareware as well.
>Ta
>Carol


Oh, thank you Carol!!

I found one. Called PM Stitch Creator 3.0 and is available here:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Graphic/Graphic-Others/PM-Stitch-Creator.shtml

And for those who do Blackwork like I wanted, it has an "Extendable 
collection of Blackwork", whatever that exactly means.

Now, to find the time to play with this piece of shareware (not likely for 
awhile for me, I am afraid.)

Thanks again,

Kimiko


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Xstitch photo conversion...
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At 05:02 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>Oh, thank you Carol!!
>
>I found one. Called PM Stitch Creator 3.0 and is available here:
>http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Graphic/Graphic-Others/PM-Stitch-Creator.shtml 
>


Ah, I goofed on this one... it is shareware, and it looks interesting, but 
it wasn't a Photoshop plugin, but appears to be a stand alone piece of 
software. I will keep looking for the plugin.

Kimiko


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From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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Hello all,

I would like to ask your help in finding a digital camera brand that gives
good color representation when photographing fabrics.

I have had 2 Canon digital cameras now and neither of them is good at
capturing fabric colors.  Since I have to put pictures on my website that
represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures and have
them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).

If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!

Thanks so much for your help!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Diana Habra wrote:

>  Since I have to put pictures on my website that
> represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures and have
> them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).
> 
> If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!
> 

Well, your picture color is only as good as my monitor. So you can get 
an expensive camera and tweak it to be perfect for you and it might be 
something entirely different when everyone else views your site.

Another $.02 , I've found that both my digital cameras and my scanners 
have tended to err on the red end of the spectrum when the weather is 
humid. I usually have to tweak the red down in summer, it doesn't seem 
to be related to brand.



Dawn


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Thank you, all who responded to my question.
I ended up on the hatsupply.com site - lots of cool stuff!
Shipping was fast and ordering was very pleasant.
I didn't order any flat fur felt yet (although I will) because I would 
lack the willpower to let it sit until the end of the semester.
I did get some gorgeous veiling for the hat that I am making now.

liz young

Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
> I know some of the millinery supply places on-line stock stuff like 
> that.  For example, http://www.hatsupply.com/flat_fur_felt.htm carries 
> flat fur felt for some of the vogue vintage patterns.
> 
> Cheers,
> Danielle
> 
> At 07:30 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
> 
>> Anyone have a source (pref US, but I'm not picky) for 100% wool felt 
>> (for making hats)?
>> I am not looking for 'hoods' but for flat pieces. I am in the midst of 
>> making a hat from a vintage vogue pattern (which is set up for flat 
>> goods) and am fighting with cheap-looking 20% wool felt.
>>
>> liz young


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Hi Diana,
I have a Sony Cyber Shoot 3,2 mill. pixels camera.
In stability it works very well. I have had it for 5 years soon, and i have 
used it frequently. It takes good closeup pictures.
But it has a problem with the blue colours. It does not capture the right 
blue tones.
But you would probably not be able to get this kind any more. The market 
changes very quickly, and i believe they use more pixels today.
So i would probably also say that they have improved to be more collour true 
today.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Cc: <GBACGCostumers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 3:40 AM
Subject: [h-cost] OT-digital camera opinions


> Hello all,
>
> I would like to ask your help in finding a digital camera brand that gives
> good color representation when photographing fabrics.
>
> I have had 2 Canon digital cameras now and neither of them is good at
> capturing fabric colors.  Since I have to put pictures on my website that
> represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures and have
> them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).
>
> If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!
>
> Thanks so much for your help!
>
> Diana
>
> www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
> "Everything for the Costumer"
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:22:37 -0400
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I, too, would love a copy of the info on the shirts, when you have the time.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kathy Page<mailto:caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca> 
  To: h-costume@indra.com<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:32 AM
  Subject: [h-cost] Re: Pleated smocks/shifts etc


  Hi Kimiko,

  Incidentally I do have this journal book, sent over
  about a year ago now. I had meant to translate it from
  Swedish, but other projects kept leaping into my way.
  It contains all 4 shirts from the Sture men found at
  Uppsala, complete with conservation diagrams on their
  construction. I can copy stuff from it if you wish.
  Give me a couple months to get the glut of stuff I
  have going on out of the way, and I might be able to
  do some translating as well. *I* personally don't
  speak the language fluently, but I have a friend in
  Saffle, Sweden that helps me along. I understand the
  museology terms, he gives me the raw information.
  Between the two of us, we come up with some fairly
  usable translations.

  Kathy 

  > But it gave me a name of a journal to hunt down,
  > "Journal of the Royal 
  > Armoury" Vol IV: 8-9 (häfte 8-9) The article is
  > titled "Stureskjortorna" 
  > and it was written by Anna-Maja Nylén. Do you or
  > anyone else have this, 
  > seen this, and/or know what language it may be
  > written in? I am presuming 
  > not English. Since you mentioned the shirt, do you
  > have more info on the 
  > Sture shirt as well?


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  -George Eliot
  For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it.
  -Ivan Panin






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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-digital camera opinions
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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> Hi Diana,
> I have a Sony Cyber Shoot 3,2 mill. pixels camera.
> In stability it works very well. I have had it for 5 years soon, and i
> have
> used it frequently. It takes good closeup pictures.
> But it has a problem with the blue colours. It does not capture the right
> blue tones.

That has been one of the problems with mine!

Someone just pointed out to me that my camera might have a "light balance
setting" and it does!!  I can adjust for sun, clouds, indoor lighting,
etc.  I am going to try that first before I spend more money on a new
camera.  But if it doesn't work (or when this camera wears out) I think I
will buy an Olympus next :~>

Thanks so much to everyone for their suggestions!!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: pleated smocks/shifts
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Status: RO

The teacher of the class last weekend had pictures showing a progression. In the earlier stuff, you see really tiny pleats sewn to a band of trim, starting in the 1490s, as I recall. Then the embroidery moved from the band of trim to the pleatwork itself. I think she said the stitches resembled naalbinding and were used to hold the pleats in place. She had several examples of where she'd done some of this work and gotten results that looked just like the paintings. In later periods, in order to get more fabric to pleat to the high necks, they moved the sleeves down the body, forgot about shoulder seams entirely, and pleated the torso part of the shirt right into the neck. That's what those Henry VIII portraits show. After that, during Elizabeth's reign, the need for more fabric to pleat and less bulk under more form-fitting styles led to the creation of separate collars and cuffs, and pleatwork pretty much went out of style.
 
This teacher had a three-inch binder full of full-page images of what she was talking about. She had blown some of the pictures up to life-size and figured out how many pleats per inch and how much fabric would have had to go into the necklines of these smocks, and it was yards and yards pleated into a 16-inch neckline. She said she couldn't get linen fine enough to do that, so her smocks were made of cotton lawn. She really ought to write a book. She had done a lot of work, and it was fascinating.
 
Regarding the Mary of Hungary dress, that smocked blouse looks like it would have a pattern like the one on Dawn's website: http://www.reddawn.net/costume/chemise.htm. According to this teacher's timeline, this pattern would have been developed in order to get more fabric to pleat across the front. 
 
I don't think she had any extant examples of the Henry VIII shirt, but she did have references to other historians who thought the same thing she did, and it sure made a lot of sense the way she presented it, as one of the final stages of an evolution.
 
::disclaimer:: I'm a rank newbie reporting what I learned last weekend, so I apologize if I got any of it wrong. I'll get my materials from the class this weekend and make a better report.
 
Tea Rose
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> Hello all,
>
> I would like to ask your help in finding a digital camera brand  
> that gives
> good color representation when photographing fabrics.
>
> I have had 2 Canon digital cameras now and neither of them is good at
> capturing fabric colors.  Since I have to put pictures on my  
> website that
> represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures  
> and have
> them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).
>
> If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!

I'm a graphic designer and avid photobug but I find myself correcting  
almost every shot taken, in some way. Digitals, and any camera  
really, are very bad in museum settings where lighting is usually low  
or directed the wrong way than what you need it.

No camera is perfect at capturing colors, lighting is a big reason,  
you will need to probably acquire a program like photoshop or  
photoshop elements to color correct the photos when you return.

I suggest you buy a pantone book, or simliar color chip book, and use  
it as a reference and note it in person. When you get home you can  
use that color number reference to refer to to color correct your  
shots, but know that ALL Monitors are calibrated differently and it  
will appear slightly different computer to computer.

griz
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>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:37:50 -0500
>From: "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] RE: KWCS report?
>I have now gotten to meet Kass face to face, which was nice since we've 
>intermittantly corresponded for years (we'd been at MTA one year at the same 
>time, but didn't know who the other was).

Marc, I should warn you that in her German class, Kass said, "Marc's going to make me a pair of shoes. He might not know it yet, but he's going to."  :)
 
Tea Rose
 
P.S. I'll get the pleatwork info up this weekend; I don't have it with me here at work.
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From: "Daniel Fenwick" <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT-digital camera opinions
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:32:20 -0700
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> > Hi Diana,
> > I have a Sony Cyber Shoot 3,2 mill. pixels camera.
> > In stability it works very well. I have had it for 5 years 
> soon, and i 
> > have used it frequently. It takes good closeup pictures.
> > But it has a problem with the blue colours. It does not capture the 
> > right blue tones.
> 
> That has been one of the problems with mine!
> 
> Someone just pointed out to me that my camera might have a 
> "light balance setting" and it does!!  I can adjust for sun, 
> clouds, indoor lighting, etc.  I am going to try that first 
> before I spend more money on a new camera.  But if it doesn't 
> work (or when this camera wears out) I think I will buy an 
> Olympus next :~>

A few more things to consider with digital photography.

You absolutely need to have good color management on your computer if you
are going to get accurate color in your output.  At the least, get good
color calibration software and hardware and use it regularly.  The idea is
that what you see on the screen is then an accurate representation of what
your output will be.  With that, you can adjust to get color to match the
original.  If you are using Photoshop, work in Adobe RGB if your camera can
take pictures in it.  (If it can't look for one that can.)  Even better is
Adobe RGB and 16 bit color.  This gives you a lot more latitude before you
start getting banding and posterization.  For use on the web, after you get
done color correcting and editing, convert the image to sRGB.  Once it's
converted, use the Save for Web function.  Watch the settings here, too.
This will give you the best chance of having people on the web get an
accurate idea of the colors.

To make things a little easier, shoot a picture of something that is stark
white or even better one of the black, gray, white cards you can get from a
good photo store under the same lighting you're going to use for the
pictures of the fabric.  If possible, set everything up, lay the card on the
fabric, shoot the picture of the card, remove the card and shoot the fabric,
costume, etc.  Then color correct the first frame so you have the white
perfectly white, the black perfectly black and the gray as neutral gray.
Then apply the same color correction settings to each of your other images
and they'll be corrected for the lighting.

A good book on color management and photo correcting/editing will give you
much more detail on how all of this works.

Dan
(sometimes costumer, sometimes photographer)


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] habit francaise
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I have a question about colours for the habit francaise arround 1770ies.
Must the waistcoat always be of lighter colour than the jacket?
I was so fortunate to find a ribbed silk today in dusty rose colour. It is a
Armani silk. Naturally i baught the whole rest wich was 6,30 meters. I
thoaght it would be nice with a darker grey coloured waistcoat. Make grey
embroidery on the dusty rose jacket and dusty rose embroidery on the grey
waistcoat? I dont think i have seen other pictures with darker waistcoat,
except for a black one wich went with black breeches and black jacket.
Any ideas?

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald 
and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I 
thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.

What would you do? Any time, any place...



Dawn


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I would use it to make 16th century British dresses for my daughters.   Not nobility, merchant class I suppose.  I say this without knowing if the shade you have is compatible with that time period, but if it is what I am thinking, then that is what I would do.
 
:)
~Kimberley 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:18:47 -0500
Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?


I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light. 
 
What would you do? Any time, any place... 
 
 
Dawn 
 
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Probably another houppelande, (first one went to my wedding...) but this
time with a train and floor length sleeve, and the gold foil/bezant/spangles
on the outside of the sleeves!
Betsy (gotta pic here somewhere..)

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Dawn
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 2:19 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?

I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald 
and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I 
thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.

What would you do? Any time, any place...



Dawn


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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At 12:18 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote:
>I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between 
>emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt 
>weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
>What would you do? Any time, any place...
>
>Dawn

Oh, boy!  I'd make a middle-class Elizabethan gown and/or a nice day 
dress for 1840s California.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
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At 19:41 14/10/2005, you wrote:

>I have a question about colours for the habit francaise arround 1770ies.
>Must the waistcoat always be of lighter colour than the jacket?
>I was so fortunate to find a ribbed silk today in dusty rose colour. It is a
>Armani silk. Naturally i baught the whole rest wich was 6,30 meters. I
>thoaght it would be nice with a darker grey coloured waistcoat. Make grey
>embroidery on the dusty rose jacket and dusty rose embroidery on the grey
>waistcoat? I dont think i have seen other pictures with darker waistcoat,
>except for a black one wich went with black breeches and black jacket.
>Any ideas?


I have not seen, that I remember, any fashion plates showing a darker 
waistcoat. Nor any complete suits with darker waistcoats. But we 
don't know for sure. Maybe someone did wear it like that because, 
like you, he had a superb waistcoat to show off.

Suzi


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I'd make this gown:  *http://tinyurl.com/9q5nv
Sg
*Dawn wrote:

> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between 
> emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt 
> weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little 
> light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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From: Althea Turner <althea@alfalfapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:34:40 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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um, ... send it to me?  *grin*

it sounds like lovely tunic and overgown type stuff.
Althea


On Oct 14, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Dawn wrote:

> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between  
> emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt  
> weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a  
> little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

Althea Turner
althea@alfalfapress.com



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Althea Turner wrote:

> um, ... send it to me?  *grin*
> 

LOL! Well, I am willing to part with it for what I paid for it, which is 
pretty cheap, if anyone is interested. I've been looking at it for a 
year now and just can't get inspired.


Dawn




> it sounds like lovely tunic and overgown type stuff.
> Althea
> 
> 
> On Oct 14, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Dawn wrote:
> 
>> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between  
>> emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt  
>> weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a  
>> little light.
>>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald
> and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I
> thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...

I would make a lovely cotehardie with as many panels as I can handle and a
huge skirt!  Warm and soft wool in dark green?  Sounds heavenly!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Genie Barrett <maggie.gene@justinanimator.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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At 03:51 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote:
>Althea Turner wrote:
>
>>um, ... send it to me?  *grin*
>
>LOL! Well, I am willing to part with it for what I paid for it, 
>which is pretty cheap, if anyone is interested. I've been looking at 
>it for a year now and just can't get inspired.
>
>
>Dawn
Is it too late, or can I claim it?  No matter what you spent on it.

Genie 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-digital camera opinions
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:18:37 -0700
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Diana

I would think color could be more related to whatever lighting you are 
using, rather than the camera.  Have you tried using halogen lighting with 
any better result?

There are also all sorts of programs (like Adobe Photoshop) that will tweak 
the color of the digital image quite a bit, you could play with the captured 
image to get it to match the fabric as you are looking at it in it's natural 
state and match it on your monitor.

However, as Dawn pointed out, everyone's monitor's are set slightly 
differently, and there is no universal color standard as yet for monitor 
viewing of items on the web.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
Theatrical Costume Design
"Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none:
be able for thine enemy rather in power than use,
and keep thy friend under thy own life's key:
be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..."
All's Well That Ends Well 1.1.65-6, Countess to Bertram
W. Shakespeare

http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-digital camera opinions


> Diana Habra wrote:
>
>>  Since I have to put pictures on my website that
>> represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures and have
>> them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).
>>
>> If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!
>>
>
> Well, your picture color is only as good as my monitor. So you can get an 
> expensive camera and tweak it to be perfect for you and it might be 
> something entirely different when everyone else views your site.
>
> Another $.02 , I've found that both my digital cameras and my scanners 
> have tended to err on the red end of the spectrum when the weather is 
> humid. I usually have to tweak the red down in summer, it doesn't seem to 
> be related to brand.
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:18:57 -0500
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From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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      It definitely sounds like a good weight for a gown, any time any 
place. :-)  Embellishement can turn it into a higher class.  There's 
that wool mantua at the Met with the metallic embroidery. 
Lightweight wool is so wonderful for spring or fall outdoor events. 
It really depends on what you like to do as far as historic 
activities.  It sounds lightweight enough for hoops, for mid-19th 
century.

      You didn't mention the width, but depending on the style/period 
you may be able to make more than one gown.  For the second (or 
third) gown, you could overdye it a different shade.  I once 
discovered, though, that a piece of wool was saturated with the color 
and would not take any more dye.  After using color remover on it, it 
dyed perfectly.

      I do like the idea of matching gowns for girls, or you could 
make gowns for different time periods (if you don't want multiples in 
the same color).

      I got some wool like this when a local fabric store went out of 
business.  It's a challis weight.  At the moment it's packed away, 
ripening. :-)

      -Carol


>>I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between 
>>emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt 
>>weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a 
>>little light.
>>
>>What would you do? Any time, any place...
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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Dawn,

	I just got back from a wonderful three week vacation to England and
Scotland with four other SCA friends.  We saw castles.  We saw cathedrals.
We saw Palaces!  We saw ordinary people's homes recreated from Anglo-Saxon
times (Weald and Downland Open Air Museum) and Tudor Cottages.  One thing
all this did was to emphasize that we don't usually dress anywhere near
warmly enough.  So that lovely green light weight wool would be perfect once
you have lined it with something to give it more drape and hand.  What you
choose to line it with will impact on how you can wear it in our usually air
conditioned venues (air conditioned as in warmed or cooled to what we think
of as comfortable).
	Stokesay Castle ... You haven't been cold until you have stood in the great
hall listening to the little recorded voice for 10 minutes :-) just joking,
but...)

Wanda Pease
Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular.

>
> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald
> and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I
> thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...
>
>
>
> Dawn
>


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From: rwfranz <rwfranz@hotpop.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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No, ME!

Not that I need 14 yards of green wool.

However, I think I'd make doublet, trews, perhaps a tunic, and a cloak. 
The cloak, I'd line with a medium-weight linen; t-shirt weight does seem 
a bit on the light side.

Roger

Althea Turner wrote:

> um, ... send it to me?  *grin*
>
> it sounds like lovely tunic and overgown type stuff.
> Althea
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Dawn wrote:
>
>> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between  
>> emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt  
>> weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a  
>> little light.
>>
>> What would you do? Any time, any place...
>>
>>
>>
>> Dawn
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
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>>
>
> Althea Turner
> althea@alfalfapress.com
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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>>what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
>Not that I need 14 yards of green wool.

I would make livery for my butler, a matched set of footmen, the
carriage keeper and, with the cabbage, dress the page or perhaps the
groom's apprentice.  Anywhere, anywhen.  One should always remember to
have well dressed staff.

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com

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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] habit francaise
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:59:15 -0500
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I remember seeing once upon a time a medium green jacket with a dark red
waistcoat. It had something to do with christmas but I can't say for sure of
the date of the print.

De
-----Original Message-----
At 19:41 14/10/2005, you wrote:

>I have a question about colours for the habit francaise arround 1770ies.
>Must the waistcoat always be of lighter colour than the jacket?
>I was so fortunate to find a ribbed silk today in dusty rose colour. It is
a
>Armani silk. Naturally i baught the whole rest wich was 6,30 meters. I
>thoaght it would be nice with a darker grey coloured waistcoat. Make grey
>embroidery on the dusty rose jacket and dusty rose embroidery on the grey
>waistcoat? I dont think i have seen other pictures with darker waistcoat,
>except for a black one wich went with black breeches and black jacket.
>Any ideas?


I have not seen, that I remember, any fashion plates showing a darker
waistcoat. Nor any complete suits with darker waistcoats. But we
don't know for sure. Maybe someone did wear it like that because,
like you, he had a superb waistcoat to show off.

Suzi


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:10:32 -0500
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Go head with the cloaks. Sometimes a light weight cloak is just perfect for
a early fall or spring cover. And for extra warmth you can snuggle with that
special person under it. :)
Or
make one cloak using the same material as lining.
Or
http://oonagh.actewagl.net.au/my_loose_gown.htm
Or
I'll take it. :)
(Like I really need more fabric :P)

De




-----Original Message-----
I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald
and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I
thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.

What would you do? Any time, any place...
Dawn


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On Friday 14 October 2005 3:18 pm, Dawn wrote:
> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald
> and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I
> thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...

Well, I don't know that green would be my preferred color (though it sounds 
like a very nice green) but I can think of a lot of things that could be made 
with it.  A pair of wrap-around style apron-dresses (to be worn 
layered--there was a find at Birka that can be so interpreted).  A new long 
gown (Viking style, of course) for me.  A new tunic for my husband.  A coat 
to wear over my non-green Viking garb.....


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly
with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI."--Bram Cohen
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:29:55 -0400
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On Friday 14 October 2005 3:45 pm, Joan Jurancich wrote:
[snip]

> Oh, boy!  I'd make a middle-class Elizabethan gown and/or a nice day
> dress for 1840s California.

Now there's an idea.  I do need another 1870's dress for the live action 
role-playing campaign I'm in....

How much did you say you're willing to accept for this fabric?

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly
with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI."--Bram Cohen
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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendarob@exemail.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:47:16 +1000
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Not the whole 14 yards, of course, but I've made a nice 1st century Roman 
tunica out of what seems to be exactly the same wool. I wear it over a 
close-fitting linen tunic, per a 1st century lady's grave clothes documented 
in Women in Roman Britain (L Allason Jones), with a couple of nice bronze 
fibulae.

Glenda.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 5:18 AM
Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?


> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald 
> and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I thought 
> I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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> 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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Ooooh.....
That lightweight? I'd make a bliaut.  Or maybe, I'd just roll around in it
for a while (enjoying the ownership and all ;-) I'd embroider the hell out
of it, too, in bands around the neck and sleeves....
I'd make a shirt out of some of the remainder, using the same geometric
patterning of an English smock, and then, I'd embroider the hell out of it.
Not sure if I'd do polychrome silks, or wools.
Or I'd do an 18th century quilted petticoat.
Or I'd make one of those 18th century jackets (curacaos?).
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?


> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald
> and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I
> thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light.
>
> What would you do? Any time, any place...


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wfranz wrote:

 > No, ME!
 >
 > Not that I need 14 yards of green wool.




Fight! Fight! Me too! I was going to say: oh, Dawn, it's just not you! 
However, it is exactly me! <G>
I have such visions of a fabric scramble. lol

    -Judy Mitchell
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Subject: [h-cost] Venice dress
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Belle,
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/LicinioWWBook.jpg
Can a dress like this be made with only 5 yds/60"wide in a size 24/26?

De




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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:10:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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In a message dated 10/14/2005 10:26:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
judymitch@oldwaylane.net writes:

Fight!  Fight! Me too! I was going to say: oh, Dawn, it's just not you! 
However,  it is exactly me! <G>
I have such visions of a fabric scramble.  lol




Nothing I need or want, so this is totally disinterested, but sounds like a  
lottery to me!
 
Ann Wass
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Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:05:51 +1000 (EST)
From: Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Venice dress
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:
>>>Belle,
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/LicinioWWBook.jpg
Can a dress like this be made with only 5 yds/60"wide in a size 24/26?<<<
 
 
Speaking to me? :-)
 
Let's see. That width is one and a half times the average width for fabric, so add half of the total length to the 5 yards you have and you get the equivalent of 7 and a half yards of fabric.
 
I'd say tentatively, yes, that would be sufficient, BUT it depends on how tall you are, and if the fabric is figured or not. If you have to match a pattern you may be out of luck.
 
You'll need the length of waist point to neckline in length for bodice (maybe 50cm/20" - shoulder straps can be cut from scraps), so you may be able, with careful placement, to use up about 125cm/ very roughly 50" or 1.5 yards for both bodice and sleeves across the full width of the fabric, since the sleeves are of a fairly fabric efficient style. 
 
That would leave you 3.5 yards in length for the skirt, which would be enough if you are short and don't require a train - the skirt would have to be three panels of fabric no longer than 105cm or just over a yard/41" long. That would give you a hem circumference of 3 x 60" = 180" or 5 yards - enough for a full-looking skirt, in my opinion. You could make the skirt fuller at the back and less so at the sides/front by using one panel (selvedge to selvedge) between side back openings (leave selvedges open at top) and one on each side/front. This is of course for a front split skirt as seen in the pic. personally I don't like a centre front seam for closed skirts, but if you do, you could use the fabric the same way as for split-skirt.
 
I'm going from memory here, but I'm fairly certain I used about 5m of the same width fabric for my black velvet dress and sleeves, and I was about a size 20/22 Australian at the time, which I think equates to a 24 US sizing. I am 5' 3". :-)
 
 
 
 
 
 


 


Donna Bella Lucia da Verona - Innilgard, Lochac
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>From: tearoses@aol.com
>Marc, I should warn you that in her German class, Kass said, "Marc's going 
>to make me a pair of
>shoes. He might not know it yet, but he's going to."  :)

Not if she doesn't get in touch with me He's not :)

Marc


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It's the other way. 20-22 AU size would be 16-18 US.

Glenda.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bella" <bella_lucia_da_verona@yahoo.com.au>
> I'm going from memory here, but I'm fairly certain I used about 5m of the 
> same width fabric for my black velvet dress and sleeves, and I was about a 
> size 20/22 Australian at the time, which I think equates to a 24 US 
> sizing. I am 5' 3". :-)

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Hi,
I have run trough all of my books, and i think that it is not used.
So i have to stick to a naturally off white silk waistcoat.
Most important thing is to find nice colours to embroider it with, and it 
should not be so difficult.

Thanks for your oppinions................

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:59 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] habit francaise


>I remember seeing once upon a time a medium green jacket with a dark red
> waistcoat. It had something to do with christmas but I can't say for sure 
> of
> the date of the print.
>
> De
> -----Original Message-----
> At 19:41 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>
>>I have a question about colours for the habit francaise arround 1770ies.
>>Must the waistcoat always be of lighter colour than the jacket?
>>I was so fortunate to find a ribbed silk today in dusty rose colour. It is
> a
>>Armani silk. Naturally i baught the whole rest wich was 6,30 meters. I
>>thoaght it would be nice with a darker grey coloured waistcoat. Make grey
>>embroidery on the dusty rose jacket and dusty rose embroidery on the grey
>>waistcoat? I dont think i have seen other pictures with darker waistcoat,
>>except for a black one wich went with black breeches and black jacket.
>>Any ideas?
>
>
> I have not seen, that I remember, any fashion plates showing a darker
> waistcoat. Nor any complete suits with darker waistcoats. But we
> don't know for sure. Maybe someone did wear it like that because,
> like you, he had a superb waistcoat to show off.
>
> Suzi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 


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I will include myself _out_, as I was recently gifted with a considerable
number of yards of a blue/blue foliate jacquard that apparently ran afoul of
a forklift while still on the bolt... a big repeating tear, but very close
to the selvage, so there is plenty to salvage!
Betsy
(It's good to have friends in the upholstery biz)

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of AnnBWass@aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 10:11 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?

 
In a message dated 10/14/2005 10:26:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
judymitch@oldwaylane.net writes:

Fight!  Fight! Me too! I was going to say: oh, Dawn, it's just not you! 
However,  it is exactly me! <G>
I have such visions of a fabric scramble.  lol




Nothing I need or want, so this is totally disinterested, but sounds like a

lottery to me!
 
Ann Wass
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: KWCS report?
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:23:24 +0000
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I'd love the contact information, too, please?
Thank you,
Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Sounds like it was well worth the trip. Thank you for sharing. If I 
> may ask... would you also share the pleat work contact information... 
> I don't want to swamp the poor lady ; > but I would love to see what 
> she has found. 
> 
> Many thanks, 
> Mari / Bridgette 
> 
> > 
> > And finally, the pleatwork class was really great. She should write a book. 
> Someone on this list was asking about pleated smocks a few months ago -- 
> something about the way the sleeves were placed so there wasn't a shoulder seam 
> but the torso part was pleated into the neck. Whoever that was, e-mail me, and 
> I'll give you the contact info for the teacher of this class, because she had 
> documentation of what you were talking about. 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:21:18 +0000
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Bjarne, I'd love this pattern as well.  I'm leaning more and more towards the later periods in fashion (as opposed to the SCA periods) and actually want to start making the garments.

I've already bought all the McCain patterns and have the materials for these. But I don't have a mantua pattern...

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hi Michaela 
> 
> I have the pattern cut for this mantua also if you are interrested. From the 
> small catalogue womens fashion from 1600 1750. I baught this many years ago 
> on Victoria & Albert, my very first visit to London. 
> Let me know if i can help you with this. 
> 
> Bjarne 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "michaela" 
> To: "Historical Costume" 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 2:51 AM 
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] source for 1700-1710 Mantua 
> 
> 
> >> The English mantua you refer to is in a book 
> >> called "18th Century Women's Costume at Blaise 
> >> Castle House" by Helen Burnett and Cleo Witt. 
> >> Printed by Bristol City Museum. However, the 
> >> mantua is dated c.1738-41. It still has its matching petticoat. 
> > 
> > I just found my livejournal with my list of extant early mantua (as 
> > opposed 
> > to the very stylised later mantua) and found the book I had seen it in: 
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/pinkdiamond/334570.html 
> > Title: Women's costumes 1600-1750, [by] Zillah Halls. 
> > Published: London, H.M.S.O., 1969. 
> > Other Author(s): Halls, Zillah. 
> > I didn't manage to snaffle the date of the mantua but I can read the date 
> > of 
> > the stomacher as being 1720-30. The petticoat looks to be a quilted tube 
> > basically. 
> > The text I can make out says: 
> > "... open robe worn over a separate corset and separate skirt was 
> > established. The elaborately-arranged skirt, pinned or buttoned back, is 
> > occasionally though not frequently found throughout the first half of the 
> > 18th century; there are four examples in the London Museum." 
> > (view of the back of the mantua and petticoat) 
> > "13 stomacher 1720-30, (no.[??]) 
> > The stomacher was a separate triangular piece, usually embroidered, which 
> > filled the space in the front of the bodice." 
> > (view of the front of the Mantua, pettcoat and stomacher. 
> > 
> > I adore this example. It's so very simple but effective. The stomacher has 
> > a 
> > fine pattern embroidered with horizontal lines. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Unfortunately the image on the Sally Queen and Associates page has gone, I 
> > think it is in the 2000 calendar. I'm going to email to ask if this is so. 
> > I 
> > seem to recall it being in the colletcion of the Royal Ontaria Museum, but 
> > there is no info on their site. 
> > 
> > 
> > regards, 
> > michaela de bruce 
> > http://costumes.glittersweet.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
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> > 
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> > 
> 
> 
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Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:46:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joannah Hansen <Joannah@sluggy.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
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This, of course, sent me off looking through lots of portraits on the web, where I have seen plenty of *matching* waistcoats, but unfortunately no dark waistcoats with lighter coats. ( Do you know how many portraits were painted at just the right angle to not let you see what is on under their coats and jabots? Nearly every blasted one!!!! ) 

However, I did find this portrait - 
http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?search=ss&sText=bach&LinkID=mp05038&rNo=0&role=sit
which seems to have a waiscoat of a contrasting colour. 

So, what you wish to do, Bjarne, while being uncommon ( as far as we can tell ), doesn't seem to be completely unlikely.

My 2c worth.

Joannah.   

--- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:

From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:30:11 +0200
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise

Hi,
I have run trough all of my books, and i think that it is not used.
So i have to stick to a naturally off white silk waistcoat.
Most important thing is to find nice colours to embroider it with, and it 
should not be so difficult.

Thanks for your oppinions................

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:59 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] habit francaise


>I remember seeing once upon a time a medium green jacket with a dark red
> waistcoat. It had something to do with christmas but I can't say for sure 
> of
> the date of the print.
>
> De
> -----Original Message-----
> At 19:41 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>
>>I have a question about colours for the habit francaise arround 1770ies.
>>Must the waistcoat always be of lighter colour than the jacket?
>>I was so fortunate to find a ribbed silk today in dusty rose colour. It is
> a
>>Armani silk. Naturally i baught the whole rest wich was 6,30 meters. I
>>thoaght it would be nice with a darker grey coloured waistcoat. Make grey
>>embroidery on the dusty rose jacket and dusty rose embroidery on the grey
>>waistcoat? I dont think i have seen other pictures with darker waistcoat,
>>except for a black one wich went with black breeches and black jacket.
>>Any ideas?
>
>
> I have not seen, that I remember, any fashion plates showing a darker
> waistcoat. Nor any complete suits with darker waistcoats. But we
> don't know for sure. Maybe someone did wear it like that because,
> like you, he had a superb waistcoat to show off.
>
> Suzi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Hosen

Marc


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
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At 18:46 15/10/2005, you wrote:
>This, of course, sent me off looking through lots of portraits on 
>the web, where I have seen plenty of *matching* waistcoats, but 
>unfortunately no dark waistcoats with lighter coats. ( Do you know 
>how many portraits were painted at just the right angle to not let 
>you see what is on under their coats and jabots? Nearly every 
>blasted one!!!! )
>
>However, I did find this portrait -
>http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?search=ss&sText=bach&LinkID=mp05038&rNo=0&role=sit
>which seems to have a waiscoat of a contrasting colour.


I may be able to go and have a quick look at this on Tuesday, Bjarne, 
if you can wait that long. I have a suspicion that what shows is 
the  lining of the coat, but if they have the portrait on display I 
will be able to get a better idea.

Suzi



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Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:59:38 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: [h-cost] RE: what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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>Hosen
>
>Marc

      With 14 yards?  You must have really long legs!  Or are you 
casting an entire forest full of "Robin Hood: Men in Hosen"?  :-)

      -Carol
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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Venice dress
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:20:40 -0500
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Ah. I'm 5'7 3/4", short waist, long legs.
I have 5 yds (maybe a little over)of a cotton blend yellow brocade that
seems to say "Italian".
I haven't made a mock up yet and was wondering whether to make something at
my size or give it to a friend who is petite and thin or save it in hopes of
loosing the inches.
Thank you.
De

-----Original Message-----
Speaking to me? :-)

Let's see. That width is one and a half times the average width for fabric,
so add half of the total length to the 5 yards you have and you get the
equivalent of 7 and a half yards of fabric.

I'd say tentatively, yes, that would be sufficient, BUT it depends on how
tall you are, and if the fabric is figured or not. If you have to match a
pattern you may be out of luck.

You'll need the length of waist point to neckline in length for bodice
(maybe 50cm/20" - shoulder straps can be cut from scraps), so you may be
able, with careful placement, to use up about 125cm/ very roughly 50" or 1.5
yards for both bodice and sleeves across the full width of the fabric, since
the sleeves are of a fairly fabric efficient style.

That would leave you 3.5 yards in length for the skirt, which would be
enough if you are short and don't require a train - the skirt would have to
be three panels of fabric no longer than 105cm or just over a yard/41" long.
That would give you a hem circumference of 3 x 60" = 180" or 5 yards -
enough for a full-looking skirt, in my opinion. You could make the skirt
fuller at the back and less so at the sides/front by using one panel
(selvedge to selvedge) between side back openings (leave selvedges open at
top) and one on each side/front. This is of course for a front split skirt
as seen in the pic. personally I don't like a centre front seam for closed
skirts, but if you do, you could use the fabric the same way as for
split-skirt.

I'm going from memory here, but I'm fairly certain I used about 5m of the
same width fabric for my black velvet dress and sleeves, and I was about a
size 20/22 Australian at the time, which I think equates to a 24 US sizing.
I am 5' 3". :-)

Donna Bella Lucia da Verona - Innilgard, Lochac


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:14:53 +0200
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Dear Joannah and Suzi,
Thanks for your inputs, i also found one in Ribeiro's Fashion in England and 
Fracem a spanish country park scene, a gentleman is wearing a red suit with 
green waistcoat.
But i have ben interrested in court suit wearm and i think it is a must with 
off white waistcoat.
Could have ben pretty with a medium grey with my dusty rose, but off white 
will also be nice.
I intent to embroider myself a new court suit, and i draft embroidery 
patterns right now, so fun. I think i will combine it so that i make the 
cuffs off white also. The match depends on the colours i use for the 
embroidery.
I was so fortunate to find a Armani ribbed silk in dusty red lilacs. As it 
was the last lot, 6,30 meter, i got it for 230,00 kr, a meter. They told me 
the original price is 1000,00 kr a meter.
Perhaps i make a wreath of rosebuds in dusty rose on the waistcoat and an 
old rose wreath of rosebuds on the jacket. More red than the fabric,
Please dont make any fuss about the portrait you found, it is the whole, 
that lighter waistcoats was used that matters to me.

Thanks for your replyes!!!:-)

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise


> At 18:46 15/10/2005, you wrote:
>>This, of course, sent me off looking through lots of portraits on the web, 
>>where I have seen plenty of *matching* waistcoats, but unfortunately no 
>>dark waistcoats with lighter coats. ( Do you know how many portraits were 
>>painted at just the right angle to not let you see what is on under their 
>>coats and jabots? Nearly every blasted one!!!! )
>>
>>However, I did find this portrait -
>>http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?search=ss&sText=bach&LinkID=mp05038&rNo=0&role=sit
>>which seems to have a waiscoat of a contrasting colour.
>
>
> I may be able to go and have a quick look at this on Tuesday, Bjarne, if 
> you can wait that long. I have a suspicion that what shows is the  lining 
> of the coat, but if they have the portrait on display I will be able to 
> get a better idea.
>
> Suzi
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Venice dress
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otsisto wrote:
> Belle,
> http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/LicinioWWBook.jpg
> Can a dress like this be made with only 5 yds/60"wide in a size 24/26?


Yes, certainly.  I made a very similar one out of somewhat less fabric 
and I wear about a 20-22.


-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Habeo metrum - musicamque,
hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
-Georgeus Gershwinus
-----------------------------
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----- Original Message ----- > -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
> Behalf Of AnnBWass@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 10:11 PM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/14/2005 10:26:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> judymitch@oldwaylane.net writes:
> 
> Fight!  Fight! Me too! I was going to say: oh, Dawn, it's just not you! 
> However,  it is exactly me! <G>
> I have such visions of a fabric scramble.  lol
> 


Mmmm....green and wool! That's PERFECT for me!!!

Dianne
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have you sold it yet, and how much is the bidding up to?  LOL

Dawn wrote:
> Althea Turner wrote:
> 
>> um, ... send it to me?  *grin*
>>
> 
> LOL! Well, I am willing to part with it for what I paid for it, which is 
> pretty cheap, if anyone is interested. I've been looking at it for a 
> year now and just can't get inspired.
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 



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jen funk segrest wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I would like to ask your help in finding a digital camera brand  that 
>> gives
>> good color representation when photographing fabrics.
>>
>> I have had 2 Canon digital cameras now and neither of them is good at
>> capturing fabric colors.  Since I have to put pictures on my  website 
>> that
>> represent the true fabric colors, I really want to take pictures  and 
>> have
>> them be correct without lots of altering (like I have to do now).
>>
>> If you have any opinions or experience, please share it!
> 
> 
> I'm a graphic designer and avid photobug but I find myself correcting  
> almost every shot taken, in some way. Digitals, and any camera  really, 
> are very bad in museum settings where lighting is usually low  or 
> directed the wrong way than what you need it.
> 
> No camera is perfect at capturing colors, lighting is a big reason,  you 
> will need to probably acquire a program like photoshop or  photoshop 
> elements to color correct the photos when you return.
> 
> I suggest you buy a pantone book, or simliar color chip book, and use  
> it as a reference and note it in person. When you get home you can  use 
> that color number reference to refer to to color correct your  shots, 
> but know that ALL Monitors are calibrated differently and it  will 
> appear slightly different computer to computer.
> 
> griz

this is a fastinating thread, since photography and computer graphics 
are a subject I enjoy very much.   thank you for your insight.  I'm 
saving the whole thread.  thanks,  Kitty

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A dress or two, I'd love to have a wool dress in green, and I think my 
granddaughters would love it too.  LOL  it sounds like it would look 
beautiful and feel wonderful.  Kitty
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:18:47 -0500
> Subject: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
> 
> 
> I've got 14 yards of plain medium-dark green (somewhere between emerald and forest) wool. It's lovely and soft and about t-shirt weight. I thought I might make cloaks out of it, but it seems a little light. 
>  
> What would you do? Any time, any place... 
>  
>  
> Dawn 

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Kitty Felton wrote:
> have you sold it yet, and how much is the bidding up to?  LOL
> 

I believe I have found a home for it, yes. :)  At least it will go to 
someone who will love it, and I can move on to something more inspiring 
for me. Although I was tempted by the livery idea....


Dawn


> Dawn wrote:
> 
>> Althea Turner wrote:
>>
>>> um, ... send it to me?  *grin*
>>>
>>
>> LOL! Well, I am willing to part with it for what I paid for it, which 
>> is pretty cheap, if anyone is interested. I've been looking at it for 
>> a year now and just can't get inspired.
>>
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Rats, I've been longing for a nice wool dress for church this winter.  I 
wear psudo period stuff to church, and even around the house sometimes.

Mostly prairie.  LOL  thanks anyway.  Kitty

Dawn wrote:
> Kitty Felton wrote:
> 
>> have you sold it yet, and how much is the bidding up to?  LOL
>>
> 
> I believe I have found a home for it, yes. :)  At least it will go to 
> someone who will love it, and I can move on to something more inspiring 
> for me. Although I was tempted by the livery idea....
> 
> 
> Dawn

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Kitty Felton wrote:

> Rats, I've been longing for a nice wool dress for church this winter.  I 
> wear psudo period stuff to church, and even around the house sometimes.
> 
> Mostly prairie.  LOL  thanks anyway.  Kitty


Well, fabric.com has wool crepe in a variety of nice fall colors for 
$6.49 a yard....



Dawn

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Subject: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"
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My daughter is re-reading the Anne of Green Gables books for the third or
fourth time. She wants to know what the dress with "puffed sleeves" that
Anne longs for as a child would look like. I am not familiar with that
period. I know, I know, I can look it up. But I thought someone here might
know off the top of his/her head.

Thanks in advance!

Gail Finke

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"
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What Anne so dearly longs for is "leg o' mutton" sleeves. Just google it.
The Anne books take place from the late 1890's all the way to 1919 with
Rilla of Ingleside so the fashions are fairly easy to figure out for these
books. I am an ardent L.M.Montgomery fan.

Bice

On 10/16/05, Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote:
>
>
> My daughter is re-reading the Anne of Green Gables books for the third or
> fourth time. She wants to know what the dress with "puffed sleeves" that
> Anne longs for as a child would look like. I am not familiar with that
> period. I know, I know, I can look it up. But I thought someone here might
> know off the top of his/her head.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Gail Finke
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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>
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There has been a lot of discussion of Anne of Green Gables outfits on 
this board: http://forums.sensibility.com/index.php
Cheers, Aylwen
-------------------------------------------------
 http://www.regencyreproductions.com
-------------------------------------------------

Jacqueline Johnson wrote:

>What Anne so dearly longs for is "leg o' mutton" sleeves. Just google it.
>The Anne books take place from the late 1890's all the way to 1919 with
>Rilla of Ingleside so the fashions are fairly easy to figure out for these
>books. I am an ardent L.M.Montgomery fan.
>
>Bice
>
>On 10/16/05, Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>My daughter is re-reading the Anne of Green Gables books for the third or
>>fourth time. She wants to know what the dress with "puffed sleeves" that
>>Anne longs for as a child would look like. I am not familiar with that
>>period. I know, I know, I can look it up. But I thought someone here might
>>know off the top of his/her head.
>>
>>Thanks in advance!
>>
>>Gail Finke
>>
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>>
>>    
>>
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>  
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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!4 yards. 60" wide?
 
Lord ...make yourself a nice, smart looking redingote you can wear out  today 
[even though it's Victorian]. That might take like 6 yards. Make that  
houpland if you must with the rest. You have enough to make a period and a  modern 
garment.
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Subject: [h-cost] Redingote (Was: what would you do with 14 yards of wool?)
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Speaking of the redingote, does anyone know if there's a pattern for a 
1789 redingote, pictured here?

http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Coats/red1789a.jpg

I have some lovely wool that's been waiting for the right coat, and this 
is definitely it!

Thanks,
Michelle
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Rocking Horse farms has a pattern I've used once. No groaning from the anti
RHF contingent either *lol* It's not a pattern for someone who like step by
step instructions but it's a good pattern. I want to say Sense and
Sensability also has a pattern.

Bice

On 10/16/05, Michelle Plumb <mplumb@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
>
> Speaking of the redingote, does anyone know if there's a pattern for a
> 1789 redingote, pictured here?
>
> http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Coats/red1789a.jpg
>
> I have some lovely wool that's been waiting for the right coat, and this
> is definitely it!
>
> Thanks,
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
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I can't be the only one with this problem--little threads, all over my carpet, and a vacuum that just can't handle 'em.  My vacuum has enough suction to pick up a bowling ball, but the little brush thinger that's supposed to pick up lint and so forth is pretty much useless.  I have to use just the naked hose in order to get threads up, and even in a 2 bedroom apartment that gets very very tiring.

Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of stuff we costumers do?  Something that can pick up all those threads and all that fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?  

-E House, longing for hardwood floors...

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E House wrote:

>I can't be the only one with this problem--little threads, all over my carpet, and a vacuum that just can't handle 'em.  My vacuum has enough suction to pick up a bowling ball, but the little brush thinger that's supposed to pick up lint and so forth is pretty much useless.  I have to use just the naked hose in order to get threads up, and even in a 2 bedroom apartment that gets very very tiring.
>
>Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of stuff we costumers do?  Something that can pick up all those threads and all that fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?  
>
>  
>

No, but I'll lend you my stick and wad of sticky tape if you like.

-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Habeo metrum - musicamque,
hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
-Georgeus Gershwinus
----------------------------- 

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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Status: RO

I have an Orek. It manages to get everything from the floor even if the belt
is broken. Which is almost all the time because I always try to fit the
(&(() thing on myself instead letting the dealer do it.

On 10/16/05, E House <formfunc@formfunction.org> wrote:
>
> I can't be the only one with this problem--little threads, all over my
> carpet, and a vacuum that just can't handle 'em. My vacuum has enough
> suction to pick up a bowling ball, but the little brush thinger that's
> supposed to pick up lint and so forth is pretty much useless. I have to use
> just the naked hose in order to get threads up, and even in a 2 bedroom
> apartment that gets very very tiring.
>
> Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of stuff we
> costumers do? Something that can pick up all those threads and all that
> fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?
>
> -E House, longing for hardwood floors...
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
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E House wrote:

> Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of
> stuff
we costumers do? Something that can pick up all those threads and all
that fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?

Have you tried an old-fashioned carpet sweeper?

My vacuum works fine for these things, but I think the carpet sweeper 
may be a better solution if you don't want to get a new vacuum.  (And if 
you do, check Consumer Reports first.)

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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>From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
> >Hosen
>       With 14 yards?  You must have really long legs!  Or are you
>casting an entire forest full of "Robin Hood: Men in Hosen"?  :-)

My bad - I assumed the question was what someone might do with it.  If it 
takes 14 yards to make someone a kirtle or a cloak, well...

Marc


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Subject: [h-cost] grading patterns to fit a very large man
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Hi everyone,
I need to make a 1580s doublet for a large man, chest measurement 60
inches. Being small myself, I have difficulty visualising the way very
large pattern pieces work  with the changing proportions of a large
chest and belly but relatively small neck and arm sizes. I can make a
duct tape wrap for this project, but I was wondering whether there is a
book (or oneline resource) dealing with grading patterns beyond the
sizes in most commercial patterns to help me in future construction. (He
also would like a Zoot suit - for which commercial patterns are
available, but not in his size)

Thanks 

Annette
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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Dawn wrote:
> Kitty Felton wrote:
> 
>> Rats, I've been longing for a nice wool dress for church this winter.  
>> I wear psudo period stuff to church, and even around the house sometimes.
>>
>> Mostly prairie.  LOL  thanks anyway.  Kitty
> 
> 
> 
> Well, fabric.com has wool crepe in a variety of nice fall colors for 
> $6.49 a yard....
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 

I'll check that out, then of course I'll have to check out my checkbook. 
   LOL

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] grading patterns to fit a very large man
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:07:41 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] grading patterns to fit a very large man


> Hi everyone,
> I need to make a 1580s doublet for a large man, chest measurement 60
> inches. Being small myself, I have difficulty visualising the way very
> large pattern pieces work  with the changing proportions of a large
> chest and belly but relatively small neck and arm sizes.
(snip)
 Annette

Hi Annette,

I regularly make doublets for a rather large gentleman and learned a few 
things that may help you while drafting his patterns.  First, I always drape 
his patterns rather than flat-patterning them. If you're not familiar with 
this method, you basically have him wear something formfitting and literally 
drape a large piece of fabric over and around him, cutting out the neck and 
armhole and pinching in tucks and darts until it begins to look like it 
fits. Start by fitting his (smaller) shoulders and neck area, either by 
starting with a pattern or garment that fits him well in this area, or by 
drafting a pattern.  It's much easier to increase the chest and waist than 
to make the shoulders and neck smaller.  Also, depending on his actual 
shape, you may notice that the front edges of the double will end up being 
curved to accomodate the larger chest/stomach area.  Usually a style that 
has many vertical seams is easier to fit, because you can let out or take in 
the seams where you need the room.

Melusine 

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Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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>
> Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of stuff we
> costumers do?  Something that can pick up all those threads and all that
> fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?

I bought my Eureka Boss Smart Vac after I read that it got very good
ratings in Consumer Reports.  That was 2 years ago and the newer versions
of the model are still top-rated by CR.

It is a regular upright with a hose and several attachments.  You can
switch the suction from floor to hose.  I would recommend it to anyone. 
The best part is that it has awesome suction and only costs around $140. 
I bought mine at Best Buy and when I went back there last week to get a
replacement belt, I saw that they had the new Eureka Boss model.

Hope that helps!!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"


What Anne so dearly longs for is "leg o' mutton" sleeves. Just google it.
The Anne books take place from the late 1890's all the way to 1919 with
Rilla of Ingleside so the fashions are fairly easy to figure out for these
books. I am an ardent L.M.Montgomery fan.

Bice

I just saw the Anne of Green Gables movie last week--the old 30's one with 
"Anne Shirley" starring in it. I was watching eagerly for the "puffed 
sleeves" part--I was so disappointed with their depiction. (AND they made 
Diana Barry a blonde! A sacrilege!)

Dianne 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: [h-cost] OT vacuums


I can't be the only one with this problem--little threads, all over my 
carpet, and a vacuum that just can't handle 'em.  My vacuum has enough 
suction to pick up a bowling ball, but the little brush thinger that's 
supposed to pick up lint and so forth is pretty much useless.  I have to use 
just the naked hose in order to get threads up, and even in a 2 bedroom 
apartment that gets very very tiring.

Has anyone found a vacuum that works really well for the kind of stuff we 
costumers do?  Something that can pick up all those threads and all that 
fabric lint (and all that cat hair) that plagues us?

No cat hair here--but feathers and bird seed can wreak havoc on a vacuum! 
(And the Grey goes for distance when he flings...) And I have very long 
hair, which gets into everything and wraps nicely around the beater bar of a 
traditional vacuum.

I had a Dirt Devil bagless that lasted more than most of the others (three 
years, I kill most vacuums in one) but right now I have a Kenmore canister 
vac I got from Free Cycle, and I LOVE it.

-E House, longing for hardwood floors...

Dianne
And I could go for hardwood floors too! I actually rather enjoy vacuuming, 
but between the kids and the birds, the carpet just gets stained and dirty 
so fast!

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 17 10:09:31 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] grading patterns to fit a very large man
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In a message dated 10/17/2005 1:07:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
moreplentyn@earthlink.net writes:

I  regularly make doublets for a rather large gentleman 


I made two doublets for some guys about the size you mentioned [I called  
them quadruplets....but I'm BAD!] Anyway, the draping idea is an excellent one  
as everyone wears his weight in a different place. But instead of starting with 
 just a piece of fabric to drape on the gentleman, I got a commercial vest  
pattern in his size and used it as a start to get a doublet body shape. I added 
 the high neck and  raised the bottom of the armseye a little...eliminated  
any darts, put the shoulder seams back a little....y'know. I was using Janet  
Arnold's book as a guide. Then I followed the measurements taken from the man 
to  get the pattern as close as possible. TAKE A COMPLETE SET OF 
MEASUREMENTS!!!!  You'll need ones like shoulder length, chest front, across back, Neck to 
waist  CB and CF....all those things. Then make up a muslin of what you come up 
 with and fit it on him. Cut it with ample seam allowances.
 
I made mine with the period detail of no underarm seam....the front wrapped  
around to the side back. I DON'T recommend this. Makes it hard to fit on a 
large  man. I did put some boning and canvas down the front though. That was 
helpful in  making it look good. My CF closing curved too, just like in some real  
doublets.
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From: Branwyn Maura <jauncourt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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My mother always used to swear by her old-fashioned
Fuller-brush carpet sweeper (and we kept my child's
version for an extra decade for the same reason). Now
that it's AWOL (went missing in the move), we are also
quite disappointed with most modern vacs.

I'm likely going to purchase a non-electric brush
sweeper for that. Fuller still makes them :)

Maura


		
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From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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At 16:41 17/10/2005, you wrote:
>My mother always used to swear by her old-fashioned
>Fuller-brush carpet sweeper (and we kept my child's
>version for an extra decade for the same reason). Now
>that it's AWOL (went missing in the move), we are also
>quite disappointed with most modern vacs.
>
>I'm likely going to purchase a non-electric brush
>sweeper for that. Fuller still makes them :)


Don't know if you get Dyson vacuum cleaners in the U.S. Mine is a 
heavy brute, but takes up cat hairs and cat litter and crumbs and 
threads like nothing I have ever had before. And the brush thingy on 
the end of the hose gets in all the corners I try to avoid. (I don't 
have dust bunnies, I have dust elephants - I hate housework!)

Suzi 


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Subject: [h-cost] Re:was 14 yds of wool, is weathein in Eng
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 Tell me about the UK and wool.  All the sheep we passed on the way to Litchfield  (We actually slept quite near a place called Yarnfield) should have been a clue.
 
We were there in the beginning of September.  The first few days were (unseasonalbly) warm to hot.  Then it cooled off to what the weather usually was.  Luckily I had brough some of my wool things.  They are usually WAAY too hot to wear down here in North Carolina and Virginia, except for maybe January or February.  Wool petticoats and jackets and were JUSTt the thing .  The wool repelled the rain that we had one day, and although we were soaked, it really didn't bother us.  The logic of the clothing system dawned on me .  
 
Even the men in ca. 1770's regimental weren't too bothered.  They were soaked and heavy, but not uncomfortable and cold.
 
18 cent. Mia in too hot old Charlotte,
Distaff with HM 64th of foot, from the grand Stafford, and back there for their regimental reunion at the celebration of 300th anniversary of the founding of the regimmment.  They blessed our flags on the silver drums and everything.
 
 

		
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>Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:25:48 -0500
>From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
>Subject: [h-cost] OT vacuums

>I can't be the only one with this problem--little threads, all over my carpet, 
>and a vacuum that just can't handle 'em. 
 
 
I have one of those rubber-bristled brooms like you see on TV, and it works great for getting cat hair and my long hairs up off the carpet. I haven't tried it for threads or lint, since I have wood floors in my sewing room, but since you mentioned cat hairs I had to recommend it. My vacuum never gets jammed with hair anymore because I use the rubber broom before I vacuum. It also works great for getting into the grout lines between tiles.
 
Tea Rose
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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:33:53 -0400
From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves
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Okay, I know what leg o'mutton sleeves are, but I was under the impression
that these were something different. Can't say why, exactly. But I thought
this was a little girl's style or variation of some kind, not a generic
1890s style. Am I totally off-base?

Gail Finke

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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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> Don't know if you get Dyson vacuum cleaners in the U.S. Mine is a
> heavy brute, but takes up cat hairs and cat litter and crumbs and
> threads like nothing I have ever had before. And the brush thingy on
> the end of the hose gets in all the corners I try to avoid.

We do have Dyson vacs but they are around $400 and according to Consumer
Reports they work but may not be worth the big price tag.

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:49:38 -0500
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Leg of mutton(because of its resemblance and size to a leg of a full
grown sheep or ram)was just one of many styles of full sleeves. I
believe it is more often referred as such more by costume historians and
critics of the times, rather than in fashion periodicals and discussions
between actual wearers. The first really very full, top-heavy sleeves
for women that required padding, wiring, or supporting undersleeves to
maintain in recent centuries, actually was a trend of some duration,
began in the Rennaisance(mid 16th century and beyond for most European
countries). The 1590's to about early 1600's was the most notable era.
Then sleeves on women's gowns compatively collapsed in size until the
1630s when big sleeves, were again haute couture. The advent of the
mantua in the 1670's and 80's, succeeded by the sackback, robe a la
francaise, and robe a l'anglaise and all the variations of the
18th'century backfullness gown cycle, coupled with fashion's interest on
fabric pattern and use of lace, basically took the big sleeve out of
fashion until the 1820's when the line of the fashionable gown, which
had evolved from the back and side fullness of 18th c high fashion to
the relatively columnal line starting with the Directoire and Empire in
France. There were some really bizaare to our 21st century eyes fashions
of the 1820's and 30's with fashionable women wearing wider and shorter
skirts, the variations on the shoulder expanding wide bertha collar
coupled with wide sleeves and intricate hair styles topped with
broad-brimmed, usually lavishly trimmed hats. Even men had one last
blaze of colorful fashion glory, before the well-dressed fashionable,
but in good taste, male retreated back into Beau Brummel's land of
discreet, dark colored, but beautifully tailored suits that began during
the reign of Charles II.

The super-full sleeve of the 1890's admittedly took its cue from the
fashions of the 1820's and 30's, but shapes varied more and started with
some sleeve head fullness in the late 1880's. By 1895/6, the huge
sleeves with a myriad of names to denote each slight(to our eyes)change
in style, got to their largerst length and then rapidly collapsed in
size, along with the width of the shoulders. Most fullness dropped to
the lower part of the arm, where it was controlled further with pleating
and/or stitching The gored skirt of the 1890's changed from a bell
created by gores, to a softer curved gored skirt with some backfullness,
and the entire line of the skirt moved closer to the figure. Sleeves
have never gotten a large again, probably because they get in the way of
women doing things, and are difficult to fit and mass produce cheaply.
It was much easier in the next(20th century) to manufature set in
sleeves with little of no fullness and kimono and short sleeves allowed
freedom of arm movement as well as cost-cutting production methods.

Hope this helps.

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Gail & Scott Finke
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 11:34 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves


Okay, I know what leg o'mutton sleeves are, but I was under the
impression that these were something different. Can't say why, exactly.
But I thought this was a little girl's style or variation of some kind,
not a generic 1890s style. Am I totally off-base?

Gail Finke

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h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 17 14:12:55 2005
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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:04:44 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what would you do with 14 yards of wool?
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> > No, ME!
> >
> > Not that I need 14 yards of green wool.
>
>Fight! Fight! Me too! I was going to say: oh, Dawn, it's just not you! 
>However, it is exactly me! <G>
>I have such visions of a fabric scramble. lol

I haven't used up the wool I have from Pendleton yet, so I'm just watching 
everyone else fight.  But with a single 14-yard piece I could make an 
entire wardrobe of Edwardian day and walking outfits, with mix and several 
match jackets and a couple of skirts.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:14:54 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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At 18:08 17/10/2005, you wrote:

> > Don't know if you get Dyson vacuum cleaners in the U.S. Mine is a
> > heavy brute, but takes up cat hairs and cat litter and crumbs and
> > threads like nothing I have ever had before. And the brush thingy on
> > the end of the hose gets in all the corners I try to avoid.
>
>We do have Dyson vacs but they are around $400 and according to Consumer
>Reports they work but may not be worth the big price tag.


I got mine cheap in the local supermarket, so I think it is worth the 
price I paid - about 25% off!. $400.00 is too much though, even for a 
really good machine.

Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT vacuums
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Branwyn Maura" <jauncourt@yahoo.com>
> My mother always used to swear by her old-fashioned
> Fuller-brush carpet sweeper (and we kept my child's
> version for an extra decade for the same reason).

Thanks all, for the responses--I still hope to hear more reviews if anyone's 
got 'em, but, OHYEAH, carpet sweepers!  A year or two back it came to me 
that those would be the solution, but then I forgot all about them.  Thanks, 
Maura!  I'm still going to replace my vacuum with one that can handle thread 
at some point, but for now I'm going with that.

I had wondered if they still made em (the one I used as a child was at least 
40 or 50 years old) so it's very good to know that they do.  And hey, how 
often do we get to buy something that can last half a century, nowadays?

-E House


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From: Kahlara <kahlara@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: habit francaise
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Status: RO

Hello Bjarne,

Although this is not a period that I have worked with, I am a little familiar with it and I have enjoyed looking at your pictures of costumes and your exquisite embroidery.
 
It does sound like you have made your decision about the waist coat - but my mind's eye came up with this...I don't know if fabric of this sort it is period, but what about a pale pearl gray with the same rosy undertones as the jacket silk? If such a thing can be found.
 
Your embroidery plans for this suit sound lovely.
 
Annette M

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:14:53 +0200
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
To: "Historical Costume" 

Dear Joannah and Suzi,
Thanks for your inputs, i also found one in Ribeiro's Fashion in England and 
Fracem a spanish country park scene, a gentleman is wearing a red suit with 
green waistcoat.
But i have ben interrested in court suit wearm and i think it is a must with 
off white waistcoat.
Could have ben pretty with a medium grey with my dusty rose, but off white 
will also be nice.
I intent to embroider myself a new court suit, and i draft embroidery 
patterns right now, so fun. I think i will combine it so that i make the 
cuffs off white also. The match depends on the colours i use for the 
embroidery.
I was so fortunate to find a Armani ribbed silk in dusty red lilacs. As it 
was the last lot, 6,30 meter, i got it for 230,00 kr, a meter. They told me 
the original price is 1000,00 kr a meter.
Perhaps i make a wreath of rosebuds in dusty rose on the waistcoat and an 
old rose wreath of rosebuds on the jacket. More red than the fabric,
Please dont make any fuss about the portrait you found, it is the whole, 
that lighter waistcoats was used that matters to me.

Thanks for your replyes!!!:-)

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise


> At 18:46 15/10/2005, you wrote:
>>This, of course, sent me off looking through lots of portraits on the web, 
>>where I have seen plenty of *matching* waistcoats, but unfortunately no 
>>dark waistcoats with lighter coats. ( Do you know how many portraits were 
>>painted at just the right angle to not let you see what is on under their 
>>coats and jabots? Nearly every blasted one!!!! )
>>
>>However, I did find this portrait -
>>http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?search=ss&sText=bach&LinkID=mp05038&rNo=0&role=sit
>>which seems to have a waiscoat of a contrasting colour.
>
>
> I may be able to go and have a quick look at this on Tuesday, Bjarne, if 
> you can wait that long. I have a suspicion that what shows is the lining 
> of the coat, but if they have the portrait on display I will be able to 
> get a better idea.
>
> Suzi> 

		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: habit francaise
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Dear Anette,
This is what i had in mind, would be lovely on a grey silk.
But it was not used with a darker toned waistcoat, so ill have to stick on 
the off white.
But that can also be nice.
Would you magine, i searched for a twisted high glossy silk and found 
Mulberry Silks in England. I mailed the lady today because i want to order 
some things from her.
She says they have 900 collours to choose from!!!!!!!!!!!
That doesnt help much hah!

Bjarne



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kahlara" <kahlara@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:19 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: habit francaise


> Hello Bjarne,
>
> Although this is not a period that I have worked with, I am a little 
> familiar with it and I have enjoyed looking at your pictures of costumes 
> and your exquisite embroidery.
>
> It does sound like you have made your decision about the waist coat - but 
> my mind's eye came up with this...I don't know if fabric of this sort it 
> is period, but what about a pale pearl gray with the same rosy undertones 
> as the jacket silk? If such a thing can be found.
>
> Your embroidery plans for this suit sound lovely.
>
> Annette M
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:14:53 +0200
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews"
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
> To: "Historical Costume"
>
> Dear Joannah and Suzi,
> Thanks for your inputs, i also found one in Ribeiro's Fashion in England 
> and
> Fracem a spanish country park scene, a gentleman is wearing a red suit 
> with
> green waistcoat.
> But i have ben interrested in court suit wearm and i think it is a must 
> with
> off white waistcoat.
> Could have ben pretty with a medium grey with my dusty rose, but off white
> will also be nice.
> I intent to embroider myself a new court suit, and i draft embroidery
> patterns right now, so fun. I think i will combine it so that i make the
> cuffs off white also. The match depends on the colours i use for the
> embroidery.
> I was so fortunate to find a Armani ribbed silk in dusty red lilacs. As it
> was the last lot, 6,30 meter, i got it for 230,00 kr, a meter. They told 
> me
> the original price is 1000,00 kr a meter.
> Perhaps i make a wreath of rosebuds in dusty rose on the waistcoat and an
> old rose wreath of rosebuds on the jacket. More red than the fabric,
> Please dont make any fuss about the portrait you found, it is the whole,
> that lighter waistcoats was used that matters to me.
>
> Thanks for your replyes!!!:-)
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Suzi Clarke"
> To: "Historical Costume"
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] habit francaise
>
>
>> At 18:46 15/10/2005, you wrote:
>>>This, of course, sent me off looking through lots of portraits on the 
>>>web,
>>>where I have seen plenty of *matching* waistcoats, but unfortunately no
>>>dark waistcoats with lighter coats. ( Do you know how many portraits were
>>>painted at just the right angle to not let you see what is on under their
>>>coats and jabots? Nearly every blasted one!!!! )
>>>
>>>However, I did find this portrait -
>>>http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?search=ss&sText=bach&LinkID=mp05038&rNo=0&role=sit
>>>which seems to have a waiscoat of a contrasting colour.
>>
>>
>> I may be able to go and have a quick look at this on Tuesday, Bjarne, if
>> you can wait that long. I have a suspicion that what shows is the lining
>> of the coat, but if they have the portrait on display I will be able to
>> get a better idea.
>>
>> Suzi>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Well no. They had this type of sleeve for a little girl's dress. Someplace
in fact I have a baby dress with these sleeves and they are stupidly large.
It's as generic as it gets. I think at some point Marilla says that the
sleeve sizes are getting ridicoulous and are waste of good fabric which is
how I date the timeline of the book is by that statement. Silly I know but
it's a clue to costumers that they are in the late part of the puff sleeved
craze when some women as Ms. Abel pointed out so well, had frames or
horsehair to support them much like the ones in the 130 and 40's (?) did.
The older ones from 100 years before were actually bigger than the Gibson
girl ones.

The problem is the movies make you think that the book takes place later
than it does. And the costumes are off IMO by about 10 years off in one
direction or another. The Rilla of Ingleside book clearly ends in 1918 (they
give dates) shortly after the Armistice. In it Anne mourns her first grey
hair then cheerfully admits she looks foward to no longer having red hair.
Rilla is her youngest and last child and even taking in Joy the baby who
died Rilla who is 19 in the last chapter couldn't have been born any early
than 1899-1900 and Anne had been married at least 12 years IIRC when Rilla
was born in Anne of Ingleside.

Hope that helps to pin costuming dates down a bit better. And it's made me
realize that I analyze children's literature WAY too much.

Bice
off to get a better hobby

On 10/17/05, Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote:
>
>
> Okay, I know what leg o'mutton sleeves are, but I was under the impression
> that these were something different. Can't say why, exactly. But I thought
> this was a little girl's style or variation of some kind, not a generic
> 1890s style. Am I totally off-base?
>
> Gail Finke
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"
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I've even seen the 1916 (?) version. I've YET to see a good version or play
of this series. And what BBC recently did to poor Anne is disgusting beyond
words. The books are aso basic and simple there is simply NO good reason
that a more accurate version can't be done. The best out of all would
probably be the version starring Anne Shirley. The actress did so well in
that one she changed her name to Anne Shirley. It was a PBS version done
back in the late 80's IIRC.

I've also seen the 1930's version with the blonde Diana. And it was the
stupidest piece of film I've seen yet. Diana needs her raven tresses.

Bice

On 10/17/05, Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <kristalori@gmail.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] "puffed sleeves"
>
>
> What Anne so dearly longs for is "leg o' mutton" sleeves. Just google it.
> The Anne books take place from the late 1890's all the way to 1919 with
> Rilla of Ingleside so the fashions are fairly easy to figure out for these
> books. I am an ardent L.M.Montgomery fan.
>
> Bice
>
> I just saw the Anne of Green Gables movie last week--the old 30's one with
> "Anne Shirley" starring in it. I was watching eagerly for the "puffed
> sleeves" part--I was so disappointed with their depiction. (AND they made
> Diana Barry a blonde! A sacrilege!)
>
> Dianne
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:was 14 yds of wool, is weathein in Eng
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Random interesting fact:  There are still the same number of sheep per 
person in Britain as there were in the 15th century.  Just that now, a 
lot fewer people spend their time looking after the sheep.

Ever since I learned that I've wondered where I can go to claim my 
sheep. I think it's about 6 each, IIRC.

Jean


Mia Dappert <snappylunch_2001@yahoo.com> wrote
> Tell me about the UK and wool.  All the sheep we passed on the way to 
>Litchfield  (We actually slept quite near a place called Yarnfield) 
>should have been a clue.
>
>We were there in the beginning of September.  The first few days were 
>(unseasonalbly) warm to hot.  Then it cooled off to what the weather 
>usually was.  Luckily I had brough some of my wool things.  They are 
>usually WAAY too hot to wear down here in North Carolina and Virginia, 
>except for maybe January or February.  Wool petticoats and jackets and 
>were JUSTt the thing .  The wool repelled the rain that we had one day, 
>and although we were soaked, it really didn't bother us.  The logic of 
>the clothing system dawned on me .
>
>Even the men in ca. 1770's regimental weren't too bothered.  They were 
>soaked and heavy, but not uncomfortable and cold.
>
>18 cent. Mia in too hot old Charlotte,
>Distaff with HM 64th of foot, from the grand Stafford, and back there 
>for their regimental reunion at the celebration of 300th anniversary of 
>the founding of the regimmment.  They blessed our flags on the silver 
>drums and everything.
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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$400 is about the equivalent of what you'd pay for a newer version of a dyson 
over here these days - but from my experience they're probably not worth the 
outlay (we've got one - can't remember which model).  Was brilliant for a few 
months, but it just couldn't cope with cat hair, cat litter and thread.  There 
just seems to be too much that can go wrong (with the uprights at least).

We now have a vax (don't know if they're available in the states).  It's 
fabulous - picks up the cat hairs and litter, the thread, my hair (which is quite 
long usually), the mud etc. from the re-enactment stuff, and al the dust.  It 
even manages to suck the chalk dust out of my worn out flattened old sewing 
room carpet. All that and it washes too (not that I've actually ever used the 
washy bit).
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I'm reading an article: "Objets archéologiques; Témoins d’une quaiité de vie 
urbaine dans le bourg monastique: by Nicole Meyer Rodrigues in Dossiers 
d'Archaologie no. 297 (Oct. 2004) pp. 94-101.
On page 94 there is a picture of a knitted cap from the beginning of the 
14th century - it's described as "Bonnet en byssus" -- the text appears on 
page 101 as "Un bonnet tricoté en byssus, ou “soie marine ou encore “laine 
de poisson”, substance sécrétée par la pinna nobilis, un grand coquillage 
bivalve de méditerranée. le bonnet provient d’un dépotoir dont le 
remplissage est date du debut du XiVe siècle..."  which roughly means "A 
bonnet knitted in byssus, or "marine silk" or "fish wool", substance 
secreted by the pinna nobilis, a large bivalvular shell of the 
Mediterranean.  the bonnet comes from a dump whose filling is date of the 
beginning of XIVe century..."

Has anyone ever heard of this stuff or worked with it?

Marc


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
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At 04:49 PM 10/17/2005, you wrote:
>I'm reading an article: "Objets archéologiques; 
>Témoins d’une quaiité de vie urbaine dans le 
>bourg monastique: by Nicole Meyer Rodrigues in 
>Dossiers d'Archaologie no. 297 (Oct. 2004) pp. 94-101.
>On page 94 there is a picture of a knitted cap 
>from the beginning of the 14th century - it's 
>described as "Bonnet en byssus" -- the text 
>appears on page 101 as "Un bonnet tricoté en 
>byssus, ou “soie marine ou encore “laine de 
>poisson”, substance sécrétée par la pinna 
>nobilis, un grand coquillage bivalve de 
>méditerranée. le bonnet provient d’un dépotoir 
>dont le remplissage est date du debut du XiVe 
>siècle..."  which roughly means "A bonnet 
>knitted in byssus, or "marine silk" or "fish 
>wool", substance secreted by the pinna nobilis, 
>a large bivalvular shell of the 
>Mediterranean.  the bonnet comes from a dump 
>whose filling is date of the beginning of XIVe century..."
>
>Has anyone ever heard of this stuff or worked with it?
>
>Marc

I ran a quick search on "byssal threads".  This 
article has a statement that may support the 
article you cited.  http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/mcdb/labs/waite/byssus.html
Personally, I have never tried to collect byssal 
threads from mussels, though here's an article 
showing how to work with 
them.  http://www.designboom.com/eng/education/byssus_howto.html


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 


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At the restaurant where I work we use Bissel carpet sweepers all the time.  We cannot use vacuum cleaners in the restaurant because they kick up dust and stuff.  These sweepers are fantastic!!!  They even pick up french fries and ice too!!!  They are $27 at Walmart. 

Linda S.
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>Personally, I have never tried to collect byssal threads from mussels, 
>though here's an article showing how to work with 
>them.  http://www.designboom.com/eng/education/byssus_howto.html

I don't necessarily believe all the stuff in that article, nor in the links 
from it.  For example, one quotes Herotidus as mentioning lace, and another 
says that cloth of gold was really byssus fiber fabric.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacqueline Johnson" <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves


Hope that helps to pin costuming dates down a bit better. And it's made me
realize that I analyze children's literature WAY too much.

Bice
off to get a better hobby>>

But children's lit is FUN! Think about it--Anne, The Phantom Tollbooth, The 
NeverEnding Story (another one where the movies truly STUNK), Narnia, 
Grimm's Fairy Tales...

I LOVE children's books!

Dianne


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Subject: [h-cost] Interesting article...
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I was reading my Colonial Williamsburg magazine this morning and saw this
article about tailors in the 18th century.  It is also online so I thought
I would share it with you....

The most interesting thing to me is what "tailors" do versus
"seamstresses" versus "mantua makers".  Have a look:

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/Autumn05/Tailor.cfm

Enjoy!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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If you love good kids' lit -- as I do, passionately -- then you owe it to yourself to find everything you can by Edith Nesbit, if you haven't discovered her already (The Story of the Treasure Seekers, the New Treasure Seekers, The Wouldbegoods, The Magic City, The Magic World, Wet Magic, The Railroad Children, Five Children and It, The Phoenix and the Carpet, The Story of the Amulet, The Enchanted Castle, Melisande, The Book of Dragons, The Book of Beasts, The House of Arden, Harding's Luck, Fairy Tales...).  She's usually published under "E. Nesbit."
 
And the only (admittedly weak) way I can think of to make this clothing related is that she was very atypical in the way she dressed for her time (Victorian) -- loose gowns, no corset, short hair -- and she smoked like a chimney!
 
KP


Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacqueline Johnson" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves


Hope that helps to pin costuming dates down a bit better. And it's made me
realize that I analyze children's literature WAY too much.

Bice
off to get a better hobby>>

But children's lit is FUN! Think about it--Anne, The Phantom Tollbooth, The 
NeverEnding Story (another one where the movies truly STUNK), Narnia, 
Grimm's Fairy Tales...

I LOVE children's books!

Dianne


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Thank you!

The Sense and Sensibility pattern is perfect.  Just needs a couple of 
tweaks to get the exact look I want.

Michelle, happily contemplating her new winter coat.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: puffed sleeves
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Status: RO

I recently posted about this on my livejournal (if you are on there and want
to add me my name is Jaie up there) So I'm going to simply post what I wrote
up there as my response:

I've got a couple of books I'm also keeping an eye on as well. Someone has
an entire collection of the Waverly
Novels<http://www.who2.com/sirwalterscott.html>for sale. I've
always wanted a set. And this set has 26 of the books. If I recall there
should be 48. These are the books I learned to read on. Our great
grandmother had a set of these. She had a bookcase with books in the kitchen
and along with her cookbooks she kept a lot of children's books. Anne of
Green Gables in hardback all the way to the Rilla book, Rebecca of Sunny
Brook Farm in first edition, that had been hers. Also there were all of the
books from my grandfather and his siblings the last of whom wasn't born
until my grandfather was a man and married himself in the late 40's. The
Waverly's however were kept in the attic. When I was about 5 or so my
grandmother brought them down from the attic and gave them to me to read. I
was already a heavy reader and had gone through all the ones in the kitchen.
I was told to be very careful with them as they had belonged to her own
father or grandfather. She came from a wealthier home than the one she went
to in marriage so these versions of the Waverly set were leather bound with
the owners initials on the binding. I believe my aunt has them now.

The other set I am thinking about is a set of the Samantha books.And no, I
don't mean the American Girl Samantha. I'm speaking of the Victorian
Samantha. Another set of books my grandmother had. And before anyone thinks
I'm trying to relive my childhood, don't. These are books that I learned to
love with my Grandmother. That's all. The Samantha books were also written
by a local woman. Marietta
Holley<http://www.northnet.org/stlawrenceaauw/holley.htm>who was from
Pierrepont Manor in Jefferson County, NY. Pierrepont was
another major scene in my childhood. Marietta was a suffragette in the early
days and her Samantha books are about a girl who breaks all of society's
more silly rules while staying a lady. You can read the series at Project
Guttenberg. I used to have some of these books but when I moved here it was
among the boxes of books that mysteriously came up missing. The only mystery
of course being what dump did my ex husband toss them in because he felt I
had "too many books. Get rid of them". So now I have to replace my set.
Luckily he didn't toss my set of Paige
Twins<http://unofficial.umkc.edu/crossonm/pagetwins.htm>books.
Otherwise I may very well have killed him. As
you can tell though, I like girl series books. I have Aunt Jane's Nieces as
well. Which is if you aren't aware by Frank Baum under the pseudonym Edith
Van Dyne. Grandmother also had the Brownie Books and the Curlytops. The
Brownie Books I think were my aunt's the Curlytops my grandmother had gotten
herself. I have the newly printed Elsie Dinsmore books. Five Little Peppers
was also in grandmother's library. There was also the Betsey
Tacy<http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Lights/4859/>books. They still
print these so replacing them is not even an issue. They
even have a society <http://www.betsy-tacysociety.org/>. Maud Hart Lovelace
wrote them much later than the other books so I tend to think these may have
belonged to one of my younger aunts along with the Nancy Drew books that I
hated. But my most expensive books will be to work on getting hardcover
and/or first editions of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books AND Lucy Maud
Montgomery's sets. Whew.

Obligatory costume content...I also enjoy recreating what I think the
charachters would have worn and indeed am thinking of starting a "Rilla"
dress for my next project.

Bice


On 10/17/05, Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> If you love good kids' lit -- as I do, passionately -- then you owe it to
> yourself to find everything you can by Edith Nesbit, if you haven't
> discovered her already (The Story of the Treasure Seekers, the New Treasure
> Seekers, The Wouldbegoods, The Magic City, The Magic World, Wet Magic, The
> Railroad Children, Five Children and It, The Phoenix and the Carpet, The
> Story of the Amulet, The Enchanted Castle, Melisande, The Book of Dragons,
> The Book of Beasts, The House of Arden, Harding's Luck, Fairy Tales...).
> She's usually published under "E. Nesbit."
>
> And the only (admittedly weak) way I can think of to make this clothing
> related is that she was very atypical in the way she dressed for her time
> (Victorian) -- loose gowns, no corset, short hair -- and she smoked like a
> chimney!
>
> KP
> Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:
>
> But children's lit is FUN! Think about it--Anne, The Phantom Tollbooth,
> The
> NeverEnding Story (another one where the movies truly STUNK), Narnia,
> Grimm's Fairy Tales...
>
> I LOVE children's books!
>
> Dianne
>
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At 23:54 17/10/2005, you wrote:
>$400 is about the equivalent of what you'd pay for a newer version of a dyson
>over here these days - but from my experience they're probably not worth the
>outlay (we've got one - can't remember which model).  Was brilliant for a few
>months, but it just couldn't cope with cat hair, cat litter and 
>thread.  There
>just seems to be too much that can go wrong (with the uprights at least).
>
>We now have a vax (don't know if they're available in the states).  It's
>fabulous - picks up the cat hairs and litter, the thread, my hair 
>(which is quite
>long usually), the mud etc. from the re-enactment stuff, and al the dust.  It
>even manages to suck the chalk dust out of my worn out flattened old sewing
>room carpet. All that and it washes too (not that I've actually ever used the
>washy bit).


Comment from my husband. He works at the Barbican Theatre as a 
technician and they use Dysons there all the time. (Apparently 
exactly the same as my domestic one.) He says they "knock the 
b*ll*cks" out of them all the time" and they don't go wrong. 
Occasionally some of the plastic bits and pieces break, but they are 
easy to replace. They are used on carpet, wood floor, and various 
anonymous substances, and they are excellent for everything. ( I only 
discovered this today!)

Suzi


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000a01c5d37c$c99f6880$0b2baa45@chvlva.adelphia.net>
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This is my best thread chaser, too!
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lindasterner" <lindasterner@adelphia.net>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:42 PM
Subject: [h-cost] carpet sweeper


At the restaurant where I work we use Bissel carpet sweepers all the time.
We cannot use vacuum cleaners in the restaurant because they kick up dust
and stuff.  These sweepers are fantastic!!!  They even pick up french fries
and ice too!!!  They are $27 at Walmart.

Linda S.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Samantha, was Puffed sleeves
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That's interesting. I've never heard of this author or her character before. As far as I was aware, the name Samantha was unknown in Britain before the 1960s, (it isn't in the first edition of the "Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names") and I had been grumbling because the TV series "Foyle's War", set in World War 2, had a main character of that name.
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> kristalori@gmail.com 18/10/2005 05:03 >>>


The other set I am thinking about is a set of the Samantha books.And no, I
don't mean the American Girl Samantha. I'm speaking of the Victorian
Samantha. Another set of books my grandmother had. And before anyone thinks
I'm trying to relive my childhood, don't. These are books that I learned to
love with my Grandmother. That's all. The Samantha books were also written
by a local woman. Marietta
Holley<http://www.northnet.org/stlawrenceaauw/holley.htm>who was from
Pierrepont Manor in Jefferson County, NY. Pierrepont was
another major scene in my childhood. Marietta was a suffragette in the early
days and her Samantha books are about a girl who breaks all of society's
more silly rules while staying a lady. 

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>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
> >Personally, I have never tried to collect byssal threads from mussels,
> >though here's an article showing how to work with
> >them.  http://www.designboom.com/eng/education/byssus_howto.html
>I don't necessarily believe all the stuff in that article, nor in the links
>from it.  For example, one quotes Herotidus as mentioning lace, and another
>says that cloth of gold was really byssus fiber fabric.

That may be a later translation issue - for instance herodatus may be 
talking about "golden cloth" or something.  I'll have to dig out the 
reference to see.  What the site does do is give me some leads on more 
information.  Unfortunately, it doesn't give me any information on where I 
can get yarn to have a repro of this cap knitted, or a source for a good 
substitute, which would have been really nice - but hey, even if not all the 
material is perfect, it's a better start than I had yesterday  :)

Marc


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper
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How do they work on hardwood floors?

My Border Collie sheds enough to knit a whole new dog. There, obligatory
costume content--sort of! ;)

Arlys


> At the restaurant where I work we use Bissel carpet sweepers all the 
> time.
> We cannot use vacuum cleaners in the restaurant because they kick up 
> dust
> and stuff.  These sweepers are fantastic!!!  They even pick up 
> french fries
> and ice too!!!  They are $27 at Walmart.
> 
> Linda S.

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Hi Bjarne,
 
Your silk must be lighter than I imagined, as a pale pearl gray - as I think of it anyway - isn't a very dark gray. I am sure your suit will turn out lovely and I look forward to seeing pictures of the finished results.
 
900 colors of embroidery silk! You are sure to find a perfect match.
 
Annette M

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:28:31 +0200
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: habit francaise
To: "Historical Costume" 
Message-ID: <004001c5d348$942f96e0$7c83fea9@CPQ21932199711>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Dear Anette,
This is what i had in mind, would be lovely on a grey silk.
But it was not used with a darker toned waistcoat, so ill have to stick on 
the off white.
But that can also be nice.
Would you magine, i searched for a twisted high glossy silk and found 
Mulberry Silks in England. I mailed the lady today because i want to order 
some things from her.
She says they have 900 collours to choose from!!!!!!!!!!!
That doesnt help much hah!

Bjarne



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kahlara" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:19 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: habit francaise


> Hello Bjarne,
>
> Although this is not a period that I have worked with, I am a little 
> familiar with it and I have enjoyed looking at your pictures of costumes 
> and your exquisite embroidery.
>
> It does sound like you have made your decision about the waist coat - but 
> my mind's eye came up with this...I don't know if fabric of this sort it 
> is period, but what about a pale pearl gray with the same rosy undertones 
> as the jacket silk? If such a thing can be found.
>
> Your embroidery plans for this suit sound lovely.
>
> Annette M
>
>===

		
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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Samantha, was Puffed sleeves
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The Samantha books can be read online at project Gutenberg. You can also
find copies fairly easily online. They aren't true children's books although
they are often cited as such. They are books for young ladies. I'd say the
13 and up crowd. I assure you however that they are well before 1960 and
were written by Marrietta Holley who died in 1926. Well before the second
World War. http://www.northnet.org/stlawrenceaauw/holley.htm Samantha Allen
was if I recall born in 1872 when her author had already written several
other pieces.

Bice

On 10/18/05, Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> That's interesting. I've never heard of this author or her character
> before. As far as I was aware, the name Samantha was unknown in Britain
> before the 1960s, (it isn't in the first edition of the "Oxford Dictionary
> of English Christian Names") and I had been grumbling because the TV series
> "Foyle's War", set in World War 2, had a main character of that name.
>
> Kate Bunting
> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>
>
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From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:04:32 -0400
Organization: Five Rivers
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            Thought this might be of interest to some of our
embroiderers:
 
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=4587
482
<http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=458
7482&SN=7109&LN=0106> &SN=7109&LN=0106
 
Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
 
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I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion except that it has 
been discussed on our list before.  Might want to check the archives.

Sg


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Dear Lorina,
It doesnt work. Not in tiny url either.....

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Napoleonic train


>            Thought this might be of interest to some of our
> embroiderers:
> 
> http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=4587
> 482
> <http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=458
> 7482&SN=7109&LN=0106> &SN=7109&LN=0106
> 
> Regards,
> Lorina
> Five Rivers Chapmanry
> purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
> re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
> 519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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 Sorry, I could not get these links to work even after cutting and pasting the entire content.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Five Rivers Chapmanry <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Sent: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:04:32 -0400
Subject: [h-cost] Napoleonic train


            Thought this might be of interest to some of our
embroiderers:
 
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=4587
482
<http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=458
7482&SN=7109&LN=0106> &SN=7109&LN=0106
 
Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
 
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From: Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Napoleonic train
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Cut and paste the two bits separately.  Copy the first line into the location field, and then type the 482 on after that, and it'll come up.  It's gorgeous, and you especially need to see it, Bjarne!
 
KP


Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
Dear Lorina,
It doesnt work. Not in tiny url either.....

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Napoleonic train


> Thought this might be of interest to some of our
> embroiderers:
> 
> http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=4587
> 482
> > 7482&SN=7109&LN=0106> &SN=7109&LN=0106
> 
> Regards,
> Lorina
> Five Rivers Chapmanry
> purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
> re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
> 519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: [h-cost] OT: Children's lit
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Katherine Parke wrote:

> If you love good kids' lit -- as I do, passionately -- then you owe it to
> yourself to find everything you can by Edith Nesbit, if you haven't discovered
> her already (The Story of the Treasure Seekers, the New Treasure Seekers, The
> Wouldbegoods, The Magic City, The Magic World, Wet Magic, The Railroad
> Children, Five Children and It, The Phoenix and the Carpet, The Story of the
> Amulet, The Enchanted Castle, Melisande, The Book of Dragons, The Book of
> Beasts, The House of Arden, Harding's Luck, Fairy Tales...).  She's usually
> published under "E. Nesbit."

Oh, I just finished reading "The Treasure Seekers" and "The Wouldbegoods" to
my daughter for the second time. They are so GREAT. And we read "The
Enchanted Castle" over the summer. Sigh. Like so many people, I got into E.
Nesbit by reading Edward Eager. (Like the best children's books, his books
mention other great children's books.) He said in one of his introductions
that he started writing children's books because he wanted more E. Nesbit
books and there weren't any! I highly recommend "Half Magic."

I think it's a misnomer to call the really good stuff "children's
literature." It's just literature! Good for people of all ages.

Gail Finke

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Subject: [h-cost] Vair
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Does anybody know why vair was considerd an upper class fur? Surely 
squirrels must have been as common as rats or rabbits.



Dawn


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Holy Smokes...that is something else!
Here is the first link as a Tiny....I couldn't get the second link to 
work either...maybe it was just the close up as the item number seems to 
be the same.

*http://tinyurl.com/8ofvj

Sg
***



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Here are some cool shoes from the same lot...

*http://tinyurl.com/dzjlq*
WickedFrau wrote:

> Holy Smokes...that is something else!
> Here is the first link as a Tiny....I couldn't get the second link to 
> work either...maybe it was just the close up as the item number seems 
> to be the same.
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/8ofvj
>
> Sg
> ***
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
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Subject: [h-cost] Napoleonic train
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            Well drat! Okay, so go here:
http://www.christies.com/promos/oct05/7109/overview.asp
 
            Then click on the 5th icon on the right hand side of the
screen, which is a purple and gold train. It is truly one of the last
vestiges of the glorious art of embroidery.
 
            Dictator and tyrant Napoleon may have been, but he certainly
was a style-guru. :-)
 
Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
 
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Subject: [h-cost] hardwood floors and bissels
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I don`t know how well the bissels work on hardwood floors.  We do use them on both carpet and tile floors at the restaurant.  However.....I really don`t know about dog hair either (no dogs have ever come into to eat there yet!!)  :)

Linda S.
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Meow!  Very gorgeous.  I have developed a profound respect for embroiderers who use metallic threads thanks to my coif, and looking at this mantle made my eyes roll back in my head.
 
;-)
~Kimberley 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Five Rivers Chapmanry <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Sent: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:48:58 -0400
Subject: [h-cost] Napoleonic train


            Well drat! Okay, so go here:
http://www.christies.com/promos/oct05/7109/overview.asp
 
            Then click on the 5th icon on the right hand side of the
screen, which is a purple and gold train. It is truly one of the last
vestiges of the glorious art of embroidery.
 
            Dictator and tyrant Napoleon may have been, but he certainly
was a style-guru. :-)
 
Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
 
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>From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion except that it has
>been discussed on our list before.  Might want to check the archives.

I would be surprised if it hadn't been previously discussed, but couldn't 
find anything in the archives for Byssus, Bissus, Sea silk, seasilk, etc.  I 
even tried fish wool.  I'm  open for suggestions on key words to try.

Marc


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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:52:02 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper
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      I saw a commercial on TV for a new Swiffer - it's for carpets 
and has a sticky pad on the inside to catch the sweepings.  They show 
it working with loose items, such as dry cereal.  I don't know how 
well it would work with things that stick, like thread and cat hair.

      -Carol
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Arlys wrote:
> My Border Collie sheds enough to knit a whole new dog. There, obligatory
> costume content--sort of! ;)

Have you tried carding, spinning and knitting from it?  When I was college, 
a
friend of mine made a sweater from Alfie, her Old English Sheepdog and
unofficial scene shop mascot.  It was soft and a nice grey, although it did 
smell
more than a little like Alfie the first few times it got wet.

I remember a book from the early 70's called _Knitting from Your Dog_, but
I can't find it right now.  However, there's this one:  _Knitting With Dog 
Hair:
Better A Sweater From A Dog You Know and Love Than From A Sheep
You'll Never Meet_ by Kendall Crolius,  ISBN: 0312152906.

             -Helen /Aidan

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Hi.
Look i also found dolls dome shaped pannier and an oval one.
http://tinyurl.com/7rwo7

Amazing what you can find on Christies




Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vair
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Dawn wrote:

> Does anybody know why vair was considerd an upper class fur? Surely
> squirrels must have been as common as rats or rabbits.

I'd highly recommend a book mentioned often on this list: Elspeth Veale's
"The English Fur Trade in the Later Middle Ages." Thoroughly researched,
deeply sourced, and not at all dull.

"Vair" wasn't just "squirrel," but the fur of the Baltic red squirrel,
specifically certain ones imported from the coldest areas of northern and
central Europe (mostly Scandinavia and Russia), and taken in winter (when
the fur was thickest and also turned color -- grey back and white belly,
without the red streaks from the rest of the year). Depending on how the
fur was trimmed and assembled, it had different names, e.g. minever (white
bellies with a fine line of the grey back remaining around each belt) or
pured minever (white only), among others. It took a zillion of the little
creatures to make one fur (meaning a large assembled piece) so that's a
lot of trapping, preparing, and sewing.

One of the useful tools Veale includes is a glossary of the various furs
and fur terms. She has a separate section just for Baltic squirrel with
nearly 40 terms broken down as meaning various colors, places of origin,
quality levels, stage and manner of preparation, etc.

--Robin


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Here's a tinyurl for it... http://tinyurl.com/8ofvj and the second one...
http://tinyurl.com/a32zx
The train is stunning! Thank you for the link.

Robert of Stonemarche


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Hi,
Thanks for posting the link. Embroidery is stunning but honnestly i would 
never have made it on a purple velvet.
It dont match gold i think.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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In a message dated 10/18/2005 3:08:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

Embroidery is stunning but honnestly i would 
never have made it on  a purple velvet.
It dont match gold i think.



Ah, but very "imperial," isn't it?
 
Ann Wass
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <8e.322d30bd.3086a5a6@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] court train
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:47:49 +0200
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Perhaps it was because he was emperor and not king. Kings uses red,`?
At the danish national museum there is an embroidered court suit made for 
the danish ambassador in Paris. He wore this when Napoleon was crowned.
Denmark was for Napoleon, and as you all know, the english came and bombed 
Copenhagen. A very bad mistake!


Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AnnBWass@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] court train


>
> In a message dated 10/18/2005 3:08:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:
>
> Embroidery is stunning but honnestly i would
> never have made it on  a purple velvet.
> It dont match gold i think.
>
>
>
> Ah, but very "imperial," isn't it?
>
> Ann Wass
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Five Rivers Chapmanry wrote:

> Dictator and tyrant Napoleon may have been, but he certainly
> was a style-guru. :-)

I wish I could see it up close.  At this level it looks like he's been 
attacked by a tablecloth!

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] court train
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Ah, but the purple velvet is not original to the embroidery. If you read 
the "lot notes" at the very end of the page, it says that Napoleon's 
robes as described at the time of his coronation differed in detail from 
  the one presented here, and also that the embroidery here has been 
re-applied to purple velvet of a later period.


Dawn


Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Perhaps it was because he was emperor and not king. Kings uses red,`?
> At the danish national museum there is an embroidered court suit made 
> for the danish ambassador in Paris. He wore this when Napoleon was crowned.
> Denmark was for Napoleon, and as you all know, the english came and 
> bombed Copenhagen. A very bad mistake!
> 
> 
>>
>> In a message dated 10/18/2005 3:08:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:
>>
>> Embroidery is stunning but honnestly i would
>> never have made it on  a purple velvet.
>> It dont match gold i think.
>>
>>

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To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:50:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
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I haven't yet, but a friend of mine who is a spinner did. Made some very
successful yarn from it too. She said it didn't need blending because it
already had a nice twist in it and made a fairly strong yarn.

Arlys

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:15:48 -0400 "Helen  Pinto" <hpinto@mindspring.com>
writes:
> Arlys wrote:
> > My Border Collie sheds enough to knit a whole new dog. There, 
> obligatory
> > costume content--sort of! ;)
> 
> Have you tried carding, spinning and knitting from it?  When I was 
> college, 
> a
> friend of mine made a sweater from Alfie, her Old English Sheepdog 
> and
> unofficial scene shop mascot.  It was soft and a nice grey, although 
> it did 
> smell
> more than a little like Alfie the first few times it got wet.
> 
> I remember a book from the early 70's called _Knitting from Your 
> Dog_, but
> I can't find it right now.  However, there's this one:  _Knitting 
> With Dog 
> Hair:
> Better A Sweater From A Dog You Know and Love Than From A Sheep
> You'll Never Meet_ by Kendall Crolius,  ISBN: 0312152906.
> 
>              -Helen /Aidan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 

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Carol wrote:
>      I saw a commercial on TV for a new Swiffer - it's for carpets and has 
> a sticky pad on the inside to catch the sweepings.

I just used mine for the first time, and it pulled everything off the rug- 
beads, crumbs, hair, thread.  You don't want to look at the pad too closely 
when you take it out.  It works.
The downside is probably going to be the cost, since replacement pads cost 
$4 for 12.  A good old-fashioned carpet sweeper will probably be more cost 
effective.
             -Helen/Aidan

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Hi Marc, here is a bookmark for some of the emails I was referring to.  
http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives/hcos01/hcos03.cl
Sometimes it is easier to "google" the web for what you are looking for 
and include h-cost too. This allows you to search the body if the email 
as well as the subject, which in this case didn't contain any of the 
terms you were looking for.

Hope that helps.....at least this gets you somewhere close to the thread 
(the discussion....not the hairs!).  I didn't read it thoroughly, so I 
don't know if there was much helpful in it.

Sg

Mac Carlson wrote:

> I would be surprised if it hadn't been previously discussed, but 
> couldn't find anything in the archives for Byssus, Bissus, Sea silk, 
> seasilk, etc.  I even tried fish wool.  I'm  open for suggestions on 
> key words to try.
>
> Marc


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
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I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would love to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no?

 

Thanks

 

Jean/Raella



"Only the mediocre are always at their best"
		
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:43:34 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
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At 1:50 PM -0700 10/18/05, Cynthia J Ley wrote:
>I haven't yet, but a friend of mine who is a spinner did. Made some very
>successful yarn from it too. She said it didn't need blending because it
>already had a nice twist in it and made a fairly strong yarn.

When I was actively spinning, I was asked if I'd take a commission 
from a local afghan (hound) club to make an "afghan afghan." I 
thought it was a cute idea but didn't have the time.

I believe there's also a book on using dog hair in weaving -- IIRC 
it's titled or subtitled (yes really) "From Woof to Warp."

I suppose the temptation was irresistible, really....
-- 
____________________________________________________________

O    Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>  -   Davis, California
+     http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cranach dress
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Hi Jean/Raella--
I'm doing the Martyrdom of St. Barbara gown (Metropolitan Mus. of Art, NYC)
20,000 beads and counting... The shirt and bodice are definitely connected.
Because of how she is kneeling I think it would be a back closure-- at least
on this dress. It has a lot of Italian influence to my eye. Side closure...
maybe, but nothing evident from the painting. Corset... probably not. Check
out that huge book on Cranach. ("Lucas Cranach", by Friedlander and
Rosenberg) It shows lots of pics of women with their dresses open, like the
multiple paintings of "Lucretia". There are a few back views also. Most of
the plates are B&W, but some color.It is a great resource...

One of these days I'll finish the darn thing...

Regards-
Dame Catriona MacDuff



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of msraella@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:23 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress




I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would love to
hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is
there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited
out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for
example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no?



Thanks



Jean/Raella



"Only the mediocre are always at their best"

---------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair


> At 1:50 PM -0700 10/18/05, Cynthia J Ley wrote:
> >I haven't yet, but a friend of mine who is a spinner did. Made some very
> >successful yarn from it too. She said it didn't need blending because it
> >already had a nice twist in it and made a fairly strong yarn.
>
> When I was actively spinning, I was asked if I'd take a commission
> from a local afghan (hound) club to make an "afghan afghan." I
> thought it was a cute idea but didn't have the time.
>
> I believe there's also a book on using dog hair in weaving -- IIRC
> it's titled or subtitled (yes really) "From Woof to Warp."
>
> I suppose the temptation was irresistible, really....
> -- 

For some dog owners the temptation is more a survival reaction. :-)
My uncle raises Alaskan Malamutes, and often puppy-sits for other Mala-mutt
owners. He has had up to 25 dogs at his acreage at one time. That's a LOT of
dog fluff! My Malamutt every spring would shed a garbage bag's worth of soft
undercoat, her favorite thing was to sit with me outside and let me pull
handfuls of the stuff off of her - much easier than trying to scratch it off
herself I'm sure. A friend of my uncle's would come and collect the fluff
from him and other Malamute and Samoyed owners then spin and knit the
colletion every year, she made a nice  bit of money at the season's dog
shows selling the results. Softer than you might think, and very warm. :-)

Sheridan
(missing my dog now...)


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
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>I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would love 
>to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not,

There's one Cranach painting where the front edges of the dress don't quite 
line up, as tho the front corners weren't attached to the skirt.  But 
there's another Cranach painting where someone like Lucretia is about to 
stab herself, and the whole bodice seems to have peeled down to the waist.

>b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is 
>edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook 
>for example).

Not on a 'Cranach' dress; only on 'Durer' dresses.

>c. closure in the side front?

Front, I think.

>d. corset or no?

Whether or not there's an actual corset, there's some kind of body shaper 
inside there.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Status: RO

Lurking newcomer actually has some input on this one :-) Having made about
50 - literally - of these "placket-front" Germans, maybe I can share some
insight.
 The bodice is indeed attached to the skirt, and the cartridge pleats of the
skirt are set horizontally to the bottom of the bodice or a waistband.
There's no evidence I have seen yet for bum rolls in Germany in the early
16th century, but this method is documented in Blanche Payne on a military
base, as well as seen on existing garments in Uppsala cathedral. (I think
it's also referenced in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, but I can't remember which
article and volume at the moment.) The opening is on the front side, at the
side of the stomacher (see below).
 There's some debate about whether the bodice laces over a chemise with a
placket at the top, or whether the it laces over a whole frontspiece. The
existence of contemporary laced-front gowns in France, England and other
parts of Germany that have full stomachers suggests that a stomacher is
probably correct. Correct or not, it is certainly the one I have had the
most luck with. The lacing is done either with lacing strips attached to the
inside of the bodice, or small, metal rings attached at the edge.
 Not corseted. I have tried these gowns with corsets, and the silhouette is
all wrong. I use boning in a fan-shaped pattern on the stomacher, which has
worked well. (Corded support or a corded corset would probably look even
better, but I haven't tried that yet.) And I don;t believe the chemise is
attached at all.
 As to straps across the back, I haven't seen a reason to do them, and I've
managed some pretty low-backed styles. The trick is to get the edge of the
shoulder piece to sit right in the av joint (that little hollow you can feel
on shoulder), and then the shoulders stay put.
 Hope that's helpful.
-Wendy Greenhut-Bliss (Mistress Etaine du Pommier)
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>From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>Hi Marc, here is a bookmark for some of the emails I was referring to.
>http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives/hcos01/hcos03.cl...
>Hope that helps.....at least this gets you somewhere close to the thread
>(the discussion....not the hairs!).  I didn't read it thoroughly, so I
>don't know if there was much helpful in it.

Thanks.

Ok, so Byssus is the hairy bits from a particular mollusk, and also may be a 
sort of fine linen; in both cases a gold color high quality material that 
may be silk-like, and could possibly be used in cloth of golf, but then 
again maybe not.

Got it  :)

Marc


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At 12:57 PM -0500 10/18/05, Marc Carlson wrote:
>>From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>>I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion except that it has
>>been discussed on our list before.  Might want to check the archives.
>
>I would be surprised if it hadn't been previously discussed, but 
>couldn't find anything in the archives for Byssus, Bissus, Sea silk, 
>seasilk, etc.  I even tried fish wool.  I'm  open for suggestions on 
>key words to try.

Having remembered some sort of discussion on this term before, I 
searched in my archives and turned up a thread on the Historic-Knit 
list where I'd done a little research into the history of the words 
involved.  Here's my posting from that list, along with the preceding 
context.

Heather
===========================
To: HistoricKnit@yahoogroups.com
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: [HistoricKnit] Re: Greek mussel beard gloves
Cc:
Bcc:
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At 8:02 PM -0700 7/28/03, Chris Laning wrote:
>At 5:36 PM -0600 7/28/03, Rebecca Perry wrote:
>>Today I was watching Jacques Pepin and Julia Child cooking together on TV,
>>and he said something about Greek fishermen making gloves out of the
>>"beards" of mussels. I googled and found a couple of off-hand mentions of
>>this, but no details. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
>
>I have -- I saw it mentioned in (of all things) a book about cooking seafood.
>
>Mussels do secrete threads of a very strong substance that looks very
>much like silk, in order to attach themselves to the rocks they live
>on. The stuff is called "byssus." Apparently it's supposed to be a
>lovely golden color and to make very fine yarn. I don't, however,
>have any evidence that people actually _used_ this stuff, and I'd
>love to know whether there actually is such evidence or whether this
>is just a story. (I'd also think it would be rather hard to process
>and would take a lof of cleaning before you could use it.)
>
>The one time I've seen it mentioned is in a book on medieval textiles
>in Switzerland (Mittelalterliche Textilien in Kirchen und Klo:stern
>der Schweiz_ by Brigitta Schmedding) where there are some very
>fragile scraps of a veil-like material that have been labeled as
>"byssus." However determining what they actually are is complicated.
>Apparently it's very difficult to tell byssus from silk except
>possibly under a microscope, and the current consensus about this
>fabric is that it probably is just silk. I'd love to know if there's
>any more information out there.
>
>(P.S. Just to complicate matters, there is also at least one plant
>fiber called "byssus," not too surprising since I think that's just

It's even more complicated than that.  "Byssus" (Greek "byssos", from 
a Semitic root) starts out meaning "an extremely fine linen", 
although the word was later extended to (or misinterpreted as 
referring to) similarly fine cotton or silk fabric.  (See, e.g. Lewis 
& Short's Latin dictionary, Lidel & Scott's Classical Greek 
dictionary, OED.)  I can't find any mention of the use of the word 
"byssus" for the mollusc filaments earlier than the late 18th 
century, which is also when the first mention of people using these 
fibers for textiles starts showing up (OED, ref. William Beck's "The 
Draper's Dictionary").  But it's clear that the mollusc filaments 
were named after the linen textile because of their fineness.

I would tend to assume that any medieval reference to byssus would be 
to the linen fabric (or to the silk or cotton analogs).  I suspect 
that a fair amount of the confusion comes from a greater modern 
familiarity with the term in reference to shellfish than in the older 
usage.  That is, you get people reading an early reference to 
"byssus" and assuming that it means the mollusc filaments, and 
perhaps then elaborating on that concept by assumption only.  It 
seems to me that one clear distinction between silk and mollusc 
byssus would be the length of the fibers.  (Beck's mention describes 
the mollusc byssus being spun to produce a thread.)  Unless you've 
got an underwater byssus farm where you're attaching weights to the 
end of the byssus thread and drawing it out as the mollusc produces 
it, I don't see how you're going to get fibers longer than a few 
inches.

In fact, I'd want to see someone go through the process of turning 
mollusc byssus into cloth before I'll be convinced that it's a 
plausible process, rather than being a myth produced by a 
misunderstanding, similar to the "vegetable lamb".
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones@earthlink.net
<http://heatherrosejones.com>
*****
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:43:39 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Cranach Dress
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>  As to straps across the back, I haven't seen a reason to do them, and I've
>managed some pretty low-backed styles. The trick is to get the edge of the
>shoulder piece to sit right in the av joint (that little hollow you can feel
>on shoulder), and then the shoulders stay put.

The dresses in Albrecht Durer illustrations - the ones with the wide 
U-shaped neckline - sometimes have straps across the back.  Woodcuts show 
them, but only on those dresses.  I've never seen one on a "Cranach" dress.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT hardwood floors and bissels
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I just bought a Bissell Flip-It, which vacuums with one side and washes & dries with the other, and was underwhelmed.  The vacuum isn't very powerful, and the washing side is great if your floors aren't really dirty.  My next attempt will be with the Hoover version of the same idea.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lindasterner<mailto:lindasterner@adelphia.net> 
  To: h-costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:48 PM
  Subject: [h-cost] hardwood floors and bissels


  I don`t know how well the bissels work on hardwood floors.  We do use them on both carpet and tile floors at the restaurant.  However.....I really don`t know about dog hair either (no dogs have ever come into to eat there yet!!)  :)

  Linda S.
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Subject: [h-cost] now dog hair
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I can confirm that dog hair makes lovely fabric, whether woven or knit or 
felted.  Any dog that blows a fine, soft undercoat (usually in the spring) 
makes a good candidate. If it's at least an inch and a half long, most 
people will not be able to distinguish it from angora (rabbit) in a finished 
object. The main objection is odor. If the dog smells, the fabric will too. 
Sometimes the odor can be washed out at the yarn stage, but sometimes it 
can't.

I made several skeins of yarn from my rough collie's undercoat, and it has 
no odor at all, even when wet. I've spun fiber from a chow chow that stank 
from beginning to end and did not wash out.

If you spin, and someone offers you dog fluff, take care. Check it for 
strong odor, and make sure it was combed out, not shaved off. Shaved fur 
needs to be de-haired and it's a job No One wants!

If you are trying to emulate white fur trim on an outfit, and don't want to 
use fur skins, a finely knit white angora yarn, made from prime plucked 
angora, can be brushed out into a very impressive mock fur.

Denise B. 

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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
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<< I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would love
to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is
there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited
out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for
example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no?>>


Ooh boy, can o worms here we come;)

Seriously this style of dress is not as easily understood as many because we
have to rely so much on artwork of the time, which as anyone knows is not an
infallable method of  understanding fine detail;)

That said, there is a lot we can say about the Saxon court style based on
paintings and woodcuts.

Closure: I have never seen any example of back fastening, nor indeed a
centre back seam in any of the artwork I've seen*. At least not prior to the
take up of Spanish influenced dress of the later part of the century.
Closed front bodices probaly closed up the side, and not side back. Again I
have never seen evidence of side back seams in any of the paintings of
German (or Swiss, or Austrian etc) women. Nor woodcuts either. Side seams
are nearly invisible to us due to arms usually hiding that area. So it's
mostly conjecture at this point.
The open fronted bodices with lacing are probably fastened using the lacing
and either hooks and eyes at the top or pins to keep the bust section in
place.
As for where the skirt fastens... either at the side front where the front
of the bodice ends or at centre front. The Mary of Hungary dress which is
contemporary with this style (and resembles it in a very toned down manner)
appears to fasten at the centre front of the skirt. There is a centre front
seam, so it makes sense to have the fastening there.

Attachment of skirt: yes, sewn to the bodice. There are a few paintings
where it seems that the gurads of the bodice extend over the skirt, but I'd
like to see the paintings in person to see if there is a reason for it
(restoration etc)

Band: I honestly have no idea what you are referring to here. (Use of terms
issue here rather than what we are seeing?) There are no bands edited out of
paintings (restored? Omitted by the painter?) that I have heard of. The only
bands I can think of in the Master of the House Book appear on the front of
male and female garments. They are more like lacing rather than bands as
well.

There is the brustfleck which is worn on somehting that is widely argued
about;) The decorative band that sits on top of the (usually) white section
above the lacing at the front is what I am referring to.

Corsets: well..... there is a woodcut that shows somehting that looks
awfully like a (softly) boned garment like that worn by Eleanora di Toledo.
It hooks up the font and shows equidistant vertical lines, as one would see
in boning channels. However the garment is rather soft, so obviously not
boned with anything rigid. It may even be simply quilted.
In Textiler Hausrat there is mention of Mieder (translated as corsets) but
as I don't have the book so I can't say how early this term is used, or if
it's a term used by the author (the book is in German.)
There are also examples in painting of what appear to be sleeveless bodices
(hard to find the skirts so it's hard to say if it's just a bodice or a full
length undergarment.)

I've tried a pair of bodies, kirtles and a few self-supporting German
dresses. I prefer the ease of a single layer (self supporting) but find it
hard to adjust down when I stretch the dress with wear;) Or fom weight loss,
which happens at each event longer than a day. I'm also heading into later
period and am having to work out a few odd layers of a regional style
dress;)

I would heartily recommend underskirts if you don't go for a kirtle type
garment, the skirts in Saxon Court dresses tend to have a fair bit of flair
at the hem which do need some support.

michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com


* I have seen a tapestry (well photo of one) that shows funky back lacing,
but it appears ot be decorative rather than finctional.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT hardwood floors and bissels
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Nancy Kiel wrote:

> I just bought a Bissell Flip-It, which vacuums with one side and
washes & dries with the other, and was underwhelmed.

That sounds like a much different item than a carpet sweeper.

Here's the carpet sweeper from one company:
http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=11757&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=46&iSubCat=212&iProductID=11757

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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Subject: angora Re: [h-cost] now dog hair
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> If you are trying to emulate white fur trim on an outfit, and don't want
to
> use fur skins, a finely knit white angora yarn, made from prime plucked
> angora, can be brushed out into a very impressive mock fur.


Hehehe, and if the knit is felted it also works;)

I have a short cross over chest warmer that was once upon a time a batwinged
regular sized jumper. I bought it felted so made it into a wearble garment.I
have been seriously thinking about using it as a white fur trim for some
garb.

I'm pretty sure it's angora. It's very white and super soft.

michaela de bruce
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:33:48 +0100
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vair
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Status: RO

Out of curiosity, Robin, do you know if the "Baltic squirrel" was a distinct species, or a local variant of the European squirrel Sciurus vulgaris? British ones (now sadly rare) are bright red, and I've seen dark brown ones in Switzerland. I can imagine that Northern ones might develop a thicker and paler coat in winter.
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> robin@shell.nightowl.net 18/10/2005 18:58 >>>

wrote:

"Vair" wasn't just "squirrel," but the fur of the Baltic red squirrel,
specifically certain ones imported from the coldest areas of northern and
central Europe (mostly Scandinavia and Russia), and taken in winter (when
the fur was thickest and also turned color -- grey back and white belly,
without the red streaks from the rest of the year). Depending on how the
fur was trimmed and assembled, it had different names, e.g. minever (white
bellies with a fine line of the grey back remaining around each belt) or
pured minever (white only), among others. It took a zillion of the little
creatures to make one fur (meaning a large assembled piece) so that's a
lot of trapping, preparing, and sewing.



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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vair
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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Kate M Bunting wrote:

> Out of curiosity, Robin, do you know if the "Baltic squirrel" was a
> distinct species, or a local variant of the European squirrel Sciurus
> vulgaris? British ones (now sadly rare) are bright red, and I've seen
> dark brown ones in Switzerland. I can imagine that Northern ones might
> develop a thicker and paler coat in winter.

Veale says: "The quality and colour of the fur of the red squirrel varies
according to its age, the time of year, the climate, the vegetation in
which it lives, and the food on which it feeds. Thus while in the height
of winter, when the animal's protective covering is at its richest, its
back is grey and its belly white, later in the year the fur is thinner and
streaked with red, and there is even more red in the skins of young ones.
In more northerly climates the colour of the back is paler than in the
thicker forests to the south, where in the winter its coat is a darker
grey ranging almost to black, and at other times a warm chestnut red. Such
wide variations have led naturalists to list innumerable varieties of the
species, _sciurus vulgaris_."

And much more. The book is worth a read!

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper
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Pretty well, actually. I use mine for crumming the non-carpet floors quite
often.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cynthia J Ley" <cley@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper


> How do they work on hardwood floors?
>
> My Border Collie sheds enough to knit a whole new dog. There, obligatory
> costume content--sort of! ;)
>
> Arlys
>
>
> > At the restaurant where I work we use Bissel carpet sweepers all the
> > time.
> > We cannot use vacuum cleaners in the restaurant because they kick up
> > dust
> > and stuff.  These sweepers are fantastic!!!  They even pick up
> > french fries
> > and ice too!!!  They are $27 at Walmart.
> >
> > Linda S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:58:32 -0400
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The of the ones I have works on the principle of a removable "box" that
collects all the floor stuff so that all you have to do is snap it out for
emptying and clip it on again.  The other one works like a typical Bissell.
You just raise the undersides and empty it directly in the wastebin; no pads
to be replaced.
Kathleen.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Pinto" <hpinto@mindspring.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] carpet sweeper


> Carol wrote:
> >      I saw a commercial on TV for a new Swiffer - it's for carpets and
has
> > a sticky pad on the inside to catch the sweepings.
>
> I just used mine for the first time, and it pulled everything off the rug-
> beads, crumbs, hair, thread.  You don't want to look at the pad too
closely
> when you take it out.  It works.
> The downside is probably going to be the cost, since replacement pads cost
> $4 for 12.  A good old-fashioned carpet sweeper will probably be more cost
> effective.
>              -Helen/Aidan
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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> << I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would
> love
> to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b.
> is
> there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is
> edited
> out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for
> example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no?>>
>
>
> Ooh boy, can o worms here we come;)
>
> Seriously this style of dress is not as easily understood as many because
> we
> have to rely so much on artwork of the time, which as anyone knows is not
> an
> infallable method of  understanding fine detail;)
>
> That said, there is a lot we can say about the Saxon court style based on
> paintings and woodcuts.
>
> Closure: I have never seen any example of back fastening, nor indeed a
> centre back seam in any of the artwork I've seen*.

This was something I found as well...I was trying to find examples of
woodcuts for a class I was teaching that showed a center back seam.  And
page after page showed me nothing.  One lady said she had a woodcut with
side back seams but when I asked if she would share it with me, she didn't
know where it was.

I found a couple of side seams but NO back seams.  When I re-worked my
pattern without the center back seam, it worked just fine (the center back
seam was straight anyway).

Another thing I noticed was that there were no seams at the top of the
armhole.  My theory is that there really is a seam there but the trim
placed over the top doesn't have one and it hides the seam underneath. 
And after I patterned it out, it is possible to cut the trim that goes
down the front of the bodice and around the back of the neckline in one
piece.  Without sending you a picture, I can't explain it in words.  But
it can be done!  (If anyone wants a picture and example of how I do it,
e-mail me offline.)

I just wanted to validate Michaela's comments....

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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>From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
>Having remembered some sort of discussion on this term before, I
>searched in my archives and turned up a thread on the Historic-Knit
>list where I'd done a little research into the history of the words
>involved.  Here's my posting from that list, along with the preceding
>context.

Thank you.

>It's even more complicated than that.  "Byssus" (Greek "byssos", from
>a Semitic root) starts out meaning "an extremely fine linen",
>although the word was later extended to (or misinterpreted as
>referring to) similarly fine cotton or silk fabric.  (See, e.g. Lewis
>& Short's Latin dictionary, Lidel & Scott's Classical Greek
>dictionary, OED.)  I can't find any mention of the use of the word
>"byssus" for the mollusc filaments earlier than the late 18th
>century, which is also when the first mention of people using these
>fibers for textiles starts showing up (OED, ref. William Beck's "The
>Draper's Dictionary").  But it's clear that the mollusc filaments
>were named after the linen textile because of their fineness.

I don't have a problem with this, except for this article that says this 
knited cap is from the oceanic version :)  I'm inclined to accept that at 
face value since it's a grave find from Paris, and is in (relatively) good 
condition - something I wouldn't expect from linen. Not impossible, just... 
odd.

There is  aproblem with assumptions in translation (as you know) - if we are 
under the assumption that "byssus" means mollusk beard, we are going to tend 
to read all occurances of the word with that meaning, and the same goes for 
the linen interpretation.  Moreover, Dictionaries are written by people who 
are working with their own assumptions.    And the OED is by no means 
perfect, they only list those terms that they have been given (My favorite 
OED word, BTW is "Caribbean" - it doesn't exist).  Byssus/Bissus doesn't 
appear in the Middle English Dictionary (or the paper version at least).

Now, we know there IS a fabric called byssus, that is silky fine and goes 
back to antiquity.
We have unarguable evidence that at least some of that material is the 
linen.  No sweat.  AND you are probably right that the mollusk hair has been 
called this because of it's resemblance to the linen, just as cotton may 
have been called this for the same reason.

I'm still stuck with a fairly reputable resource telling me it's fish-wool 
:)  And it hasn't rotted away.  I'd like them to examine it closer (It it's 
fine linen, it will be easier to convince my wife to knit one for me....

>end of the byssus thread and drawing it out as the mollusc produces
>it, I don't see how you're going to get fibers longer than a few
>inches.

I believe the strands are supposed to be about 6 inches long.  I'm pretty 
sure that a lot of wool fibers are in that range (although I could be 
totally wrong there)

>In fact, I'd want to see someone go through the process of turning
>mollusc byssus into cloth before I'll be convinced that it's a
>plausible process, rather than being a myth produced by a
>misunderstanding, similar to the "vegetable lamb".

I would like to see it myself.

Marc


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
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My high school German teacher (who was Danish) made beautiful sweaters from her malamutes' hair. I used to have a Mala-mutt that produced the loveliest pure white under coat fluff that we saved for another woman that spun and knitted sweaters from dog hair.
 
As for the stench - a lot of this depends on the dog's lifestyle. Not always, but typically, a dog that is not allowed access to lovely odorous things to roll in - this includes normal ordinary organic matter - tends not to stink horribly when wet.
 
Annette M



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:16:04 -0400
From: "Shane & Sheridan" 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
To: "Historical Costume" 
Message-ID: <006a01c5d44a$ae443060$0a02a8c0@nodomainset.bellcanada>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair


> At 1:50 PM -0700 10/18/05, Cynthia J Ley wrote:
> >I haven't yet, but a friend of mine who is a spinner did. Made some very
> >successful yarn from it too. She said it didn't need blending because it
> >already had a nice twist in it and made a fairly strong yarn.
>
> When I was actively spinning, I was asked if I'd take a commission
> from a local afghan (hound) club to make an "afghan afghan." I
> thought it was a cute idea but didn't have the time.
>
> I believe there's also a book on using dog hair in weaving -- IIRC
> it's titled or subtitled (yes really) "From Woof to Warp."
>
> I suppose the temptation was irresistible, really....
> -- 

For some dog owners the temptation is more a survival reaction. :-)
My uncle raises Alaskan Malamutes, and often puppy-sits for other Mala-mutt
owners. He has had up to 25 dogs at his acreage at one time. That's a LOT of
dog fluff! My Malamutt every spring would shed a garbage bag's worth of soft
undercoat, her favorite thing was to sit with me outside and let me pull
handfuls of the stuff off of her - much easier than trying to scratch it off
herself I'm sure. A friend of my uncle's would come and collect the fluff
from him and other Malamute and Samoyed owners then spin and knit the
colletion every year, she made a nice bit of money at the season's dog
shows selling the results. Softer than you might think, and very warm. :-)

Sheridan
(missing my dog now...)




------------------------------


Message: 9
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 05:31:04 -0500
From: "Land of Oz" 
Subject: [h-cost] now dog hair
To: "Historical Costume" 
Message-ID: <009c01c5d498$35afac30$2ad12b42@denise8541f2db>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

I can confirm that dog hair makes lovely fabric, whether woven or knit or 
felted. Any dog that blows a fine, soft undercoat (usually in the spring) 
makes a good candidate. If it's at least an inch and a half long, most 
people will not be able to distinguish it from angora (rabbit) in a finished 
object. The main objection is odor. If the dog smells, the fabric will too. 
Sometimes the odor can be washed out at the yarn stage, but sometimes it 
can't.

		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] now dog hair
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:12:37 +0000
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  I also have spun rough collie hair fluff with wool - back in high school (too many years to think about).   What I did thought was to add the dog fluff with the wool and then spun it.   The ending product was very soft.  Unfortunately, I did not get to make the resulting yarn in to a garment but into a woven tapestry.
    One day, I would like to pick up spinning and weaving again.  Right now, I only have an inkle loom and a small table top loom that needs parts replaced on it (I'm just not sure what pieces have to be replaced).  Can anyone suggest a good book that shows each of the parts of a small loom?

Roscelin


> I can confirm that dog hair makes lovely fabric, whether woven or knit or 
> felted.  Any dog that blows a fine, soft undercoat (usually in the spring) 
> makes a good candidate. If it's at least an inch and a half long, most 
> people will not be able to distinguish it from angora (rabbit) in a finished 
> object. The main objection is odor. If the dog smells, the fabric will too. 
> Sometimes the odor can be washed out at the yarn stage, but sometimes it 
> can't.
>
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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: Archives (was Strange spinning question)
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Marc wrote:
>I'm still stuck with a fairly reputable resource telling me it's fish-wool 
>:)  And it hasn't rotted away.  I'd like them to examine it closer (It it's 
>fine linen, it will be easier to convince my wife to knit one for me....

Well, I think the discussion came up before from a piece described in a similarly reputable source, namely Brigitta Schmedding's _Mittelalterliche Textilien in Kirchen und Klo:stern der Schweiz_, an Abegg Institute publication.

>I believe the strands are supposed to be about 6 inches long.  I'm pretty 
>sure that a lot of wool fibers are in that range (although I could be 
>totally wrong there)

6 inches is rather on the long side for wool, IIRC, but not impossible. 

A quick look through a microscope is enough to tell immediately whether it's a plant fiber or an animal fiber. So you could in theory at least determine quite easily whether it's linen or not. 

But my recollection from the bits of research I did then is that mollusk byssus is a protein fiber and looks a lot like silk. Whether mollusk byssus and silk can be told apart just by visual observation I don't know. Certainly in the age of DNA sequencing there ought to be tests that can tell mollusk protein from silkworm protein. I would want to see _that_, rather than, say, reports from the 1930's that "scientists" have determined what the stuff is -- which is the sort of data that all too often is the only information we have on some of these textile questions.

I think the skeptical position would be that certain very fine items have been traditionally described as "byssus," but that this description may have originally referred only to their fineness, and been mistakenly amended later by someone who thought the word _had_ to refer to the mollusk stuff. 


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0  Chris Laning
|  <claning@igc.org>
+  Davis, California
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 19 14:50:36 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] U of Penn Press book on fashion in 14th c Italy
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I just ran across this forthcoming book when checking the online 
database listings for our books at our wholesaler's (in a search for our 
_Fashions of the Gilded Age_):

*Gilding the Market: Luxury And Fashion in Fourteenth Century Italy 
(Middle Ages Series) (Hardcover), by Susan Mosher Stuard, University of 
Pennsylvania Press

The publisher's description of the book is on the following web page:

http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14208.html

I don't know anything else about it, but thought h-costume members would 
be interested.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com

*
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>From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
>Well, I think the discussion came up before from a piece described in a 
>similarly reputable source, >namely Brigitta Schmedding's _Mittelalterliche 
>Textilien in Kirchen und Klo:stern der Schweiz_, an >Abegg Institute 
>publication.

I seem to have missed the earlier messages other than they were referring to 
"cloth of gold"

>But my recollection from the bits of research I did then is that mollusk 
>byssus is a protein fiber and >looks a lot like silk. Whether mollusk 
>byssus and silk can be told apart just by visual observation I >don't know. 
>Certainly in the age of DNA sequencing there ought to be tests that can 
>tell mollusk >protein from silkworm protein. I would want to see _that_, 
>rather than, say, reports from the >1930's that "scientists" have 
>determined what the stuff is -- which is the sort of data that all too 
> >often is the only information we have on some of these textile questions.

No, I'm sure THAT *never* happens - *ahem*...

(If we were lucky enough to have someone as recent as the 30s make the 
determination, as happens occasionally with shoes too).

>I think the skeptical position would be that certain very fine items have 
>been traditionally >described as "byssus," but that this description may 
>have originally referred only to their fineness, >and been mistakenly 
>amended later by someone who thought the word _had_ to refer to the 
> >mollusk stuff.

The *skeptical* position would be that the someone thought the word _had_ to 
refer to the mollusk stuff, -or- the linen stuff (or the silk, cotton, 
asbestos or whatever else has been called "byssus" over the years :)  )  I 
agree - I think the word has to do with a certain level of fineness though.

Marc


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
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Status: RO

Thanks for all the replies!
 
After perusing a lot of paintings it looks like the bodice is attached; the front piece seems to detach entirely, (Thank you Lucretia paintings!); skirt part laces up the front, (Most likely); back neckline appears to vary greatly in depth from almost backless to fairly high across the shoulder blades. I'm unsure about the pleating. Some sites insist on cartridge pleating but not all the paintings look like cartridge pleats. I'm thinking the front piece (Top part) is held in place with hook & eyes while the bottom is laced from side to side through concealed lacing rings.
 
Now another question, many of the portraits have a bodice style that while still having the piece in front also have a high collar. Could you make a jacket without sleeves rather than making 2 dresses, one with the collar and one without? I have seen what looks like a capelet with a high collar that gives much the same effect. 
 
Thanks
 
Jean/Raella

Diana Habra <dch@inreach.com> wrote:

> << I'm doing some research on the german "Cranach" dress style. I would
> love
> to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b.
> is
> there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is
> edited
> out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for
> example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no?>>
>
>
> Ooh boy, can o worms here we come;)
>
> Seriously this style of dress is not as easily understood as many because
> we
> have to rely so much on artwork of the time, which as anyone knows is not
> an
> infallable method of understanding fine detail;)
>
> That said, there is a lot we can say about the Saxon court style based on
> paintings and woodcuts.
>
> Closure: I have never seen any example of back fastening, nor indeed a
> centre back seam in any of the artwork I've seen*.

This was something I found as well...I was trying to find examples of
woodcuts for a class I was teaching that showed a center back seam. And
page after page showed me nothing. One lady said she had a woodcut with
side back seams but when I asked if she would share it with me, she didn't
know where it was.

I found a couple of side seams but NO back seams. When I re-worked my
pattern without the center back seam, it worked just fine (the center back
seam was straight anyway).

Another thing I noticed was that there were no seams at the top of the
armhole. My theory is that there really is a seam there but the trim
placed over the top doesn't have one and it hides the seam underneath. 
And after I patterned it out, it is possible to cut the trim that goes
down the front of the bodice and around the back of the neckline in one
piece. Without sending you a picture, I can't explain it in words. But
it can be done! (If anyone wants a picture and example of how I do it,
e-mail me offline.)

I just wanted to validate Michaela's comments....

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
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Status: RO

I got this from a pattern company who's newsletter I get. the user name and
pass you need is in the post so don't panic, just read carefully.

Exclusive Pattern Download/Nairobi Bag
you're going to love this...
There are a few things you can count on in life...you can never be too
good-looking...the more expensive the shoe, the higher the heel you can
manage ....and you can never have too many bags. With that in mind, and to
keep your creative hands busy whilst you wait for your first HotPatterns
shipment, here's a special gift, from us to you. This bag pattern is a great
funky design, inspired by the legendary YSL 'Mombassa' bag . It's just right
for making as a gift for that fashion-obsessed friend or family member, or
as a well-deserved treat for yourself. This pattern download is exclusively
available to our newsletter subscribers; it will not be for sale on the site
or anywhere else! Please enjoy this pattern with our compliments, and don't
forget to email us a pic of you with your great new bag...we can't wait to
see what you come up with! Click on the link below. The user name is allow,
the password is access. The pattern will print off on a standard desktop
printer, and uses 12 sheets for the pattern, and 3 sheets for the
instructions. Please note, there are 2 files here, the combined size of
these files is around 3MB so if you're using dial up, you may have a bit of
a wait....but it'll be so worth it.

http://www.hotpatterns.com/downloads/
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carletta da Nicolosi <carletta_nicolosi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Free pattern
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Thanks for sharing this!  Great timing for Holiday gift giving.
 
~Carletta


Lady Carletta da Nicolosi
Central Regional Chronicler
Kingdom of Ansteorra

























		
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Marc, you are affiliated with a University right?  So I wouldn't be 
giving anything away by sharing this source I found?

*Die textilen Byssus-Reliquien des Christlichen Abendlandes, aufbewahrt 
in den Kirchen zu Köln, Aachen, Cornelimünster, Mainz and Prag.* 
<http://www.ref.oclc.org.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/WebZ/FSFETCH?fetchtype=fullrecord:sessionid=sp02sw05-38616-ef07sjgh-nc48aj:entitypagenum=18:0:recno=8:resultset=5:format=FI:next=html/record.html:bad=error/badfetch.html:entitytoprecno=8:entitycurrecno=8:numrecs=1> 
*Author: *Bock, Franz, 1823-1899.
*Publication: *Aachen, 1895
*Document: *German : Book

Now granted it is written in a "suspect" time, but it migh have some 
clues.  You have my curiosity peaked now.  BTW, I checked the electronic 
Middle English Compendium and neither Byssus nor Bissus are there.

This might be a prospective lead:

http://www.helfordmarineconservation.co.uk/newsletters/30article2.htm

Sg
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: Archves (was Strange spinning question)-the gloves are
 online at the British Museum!
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*http://tinyurl.com/cpvvu

Well, if it is true, there they are! 

Cool...

Sg
*
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More cool stuff! 

http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/n1dr7rfquj3kng4pxgfy/contributions/e/a/0/4/ea04bp9fjbb5k73n.pdf
*http://tinyurl.com/7hk3z*
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] U of Penn Press book on fashion in 14th c Italy
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Thanks for sharing:  There are a bunch in this catalogue I would like to 
read!  http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/catalogue/medren04.pdf
Especially the one on markets and shopping in the Renaissance.....

Sg
Lavolta Press wrote:

> *Gilding the Market: Luxury And Fashion in Fourteenth Century Italy 
> (Middle Ages Series) (Hardcover), by Susan Mosher Stuard, University 
> of Pennsylvania Press


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Carletta da Nicolosi wrote:

> Thanks for sharing this!  Great timing for Holiday gift giving.
>  
> 

Yes, thanks!

And poke around the website there. Several interesting pattern 
collections for those who like to wear something a little offbeat. Love 
the Pirate Queen pantsuit!



Dawn



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They have some GREAT patterns. Easy go together and so many different looks.
Certain collections are interchangable. If you want more modern stuff for
yourself or maybe a teenager they have great stuff based off people like
Stella McCartney's designs.

Bice

On 10/19/05, Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:
>
> Carletta da Nicolosi wrote:
>
> > Thanks for sharing this! Great timing for Holiday gift giving.
> >
> >
>
> Yes, thanks!
>
> And poke around the website there. Several interesting pattern
> collections for those who like to wear something a little offbeat. Love
> the Pirate Queen pantsuit!
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT hardwood floors and bissels
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This is a different creature from a carpet sweeper.
I have the hoover version - works OK as a wet floor cleaner (goes 
through a lot of solution on the dirty bits) but blows as a vac. 
Literally. I find myself chasing wads of dog-fluff around the kitchen 
instead of vacuuming them up. It is easier to use a broom first or the 
other vacuum.

liz young

Nancy Kiel wrote:
> I just bought a Bissell Flip-It, which vacuums with one side and
> washes & dries with the other, and was underwhelmed.  The vacuum
> isn't very powerful, and the washing side is great if your floors
> aren't really dirty.  My next attempt will be with the Hoover version
> of the same idea. 

----- Original Message ----- From:
> lindasterner<mailto:lindasterner@adelphia.net> To:
> h-costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005
> 1:48 PM Subject: [h-cost] hardwood floors and bissels
> 
> I don`t know how well the bissels work on hardwood floors.  We do use
> them on both carpet and tile floors at the restaurant.  However.....I
> really don`t know about dog hair either (no dogs have ever come into
> to eat there yet!!)  :)
> 
> Linda S.


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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:53:14 -0700
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pinna Wool-a whole dang article! (was Strange
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>More cool stuff!
>http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/n1dr7rfquj3kng4pxgfy/contributions/e/a/0/4/ea04bp9fjbb5k73n.pdf
>*http://tinyurl.com/7hk3z*

No it isn't.  All I got was a website that wanted me to sign up.  Where's 
the article?


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT hardwood floors and bissels
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Thanks for the tip--I guess it's back to scrubbing floors by hand.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Elizabeth Young<mailto:lizyoung@fenris.net> 
  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT hardwood floors and bissels


  This is a different creature from a carpet sweeper.
  I have the hoover version - works OK as a wet floor cleaner (goes 
  through a lot of solution on the dirty bits) but blows as a vac. 
  Literally. I find myself chasing wads of dog-fluff around the kitchen 
  instead of vacuuming them up. It is easier to use a broom first or the 
  other vacuum.

  liz young

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From: Joannah Hansen <Joannah@sluggy.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Was carpet sweeper, now dog hair
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An ex-housemate of ours had a pure-bred huskie and a malamute-huskie cross - when they were shedding there were drifts of fur a few inches thick! Dear heavens above, but it got *everywhere*! 
The thought of *25* at time is just mindboggling.

Joannah.

--- "Shane & Sheridan" <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca> wrote:

For some dog owners the temptation is more a survival reaction. :-)
My uncle raises Alaskan Malamutes, and often puppy-sits for other Mala-mutt
owners. He has had up to 25 dogs at his acreage at one time. That's a LOT of
dog fluff! My Malamutt every spring would shed a garbage bag's worth of soft
undercoat, her favorite thing was to sit with me outside and let me pull
handfuls of the stuff off of her - much easier than trying to scratch it off
herself I'm sure. A friend of my uncle's would come and collect the fluff
from him and other Malamute and Samoyed owners then spin and knit the
colletion every year, she made a nice  bit of money at the season's dog
shows selling the results. Softer than you might think, and very warm. :-)

Sheridan
(missing my dog now...)


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I like their sizing ranges- Slinky girl, glamour girl and curvy Girl!!
B.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Jacqueline Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:05 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Free pattern

They have some GREAT patterns. Easy go together and so many different looks.
Certain collections are interchangable. If you want more modern stuff for
yourself or maybe a teenager they have great stuff based off people like
Stella McCartney's designs.

Bice

On 10/19/05, Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:
>
> Carletta da Nicolosi wrote:
>
> > Thanks for sharing this! Great timing for Holiday gift giving.
> >
> >
>
> Yes, thanks!
>
> And poke around the website there. Several interesting pattern
> collections for those who like to wear something a little offbeat. Love
> the Pirate Queen pantsuit!
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Byssus
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Marc,

A photograph of an exhibit of Byssus (including the mollusk, filaments, and 
sleeves made from it) is reproduced on page 114 of

Les Etoffes: Dictionnaire Historique by Elisabeth Hardouin-Fugier & B. 
Berthod,. 420 pages, 9 1/2 " X 12 1/2 " ISBN: 2859171754 (my copy is the 
1994 edition but is recently reprinted as ISBN: 2859174184, something like 
462 illustrations)

There is also a short article with four references. All are quite old 
except for

"A propos d'une soierie fraçonnée dite bysus", C.I.E.T.A., 1983, n 57/58, 
pp. 50-56.

As C.I.E.T.A. is the international authority on textiles, I would expect 
that this might be useful. If you wish, I will scan the image and text from 
Les Etoffes for you.

Beth Matney 


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Hi.
In The Art of Dress by Ashelford, i have found a fashionprint of a man 
wearing demi galla. He has lilc breeches and waistcoat, and a green jacket. 
These collours are equally dark. Demi Galla was unlike the full court dress 
only embroidered with a small edge. He is escorting a lady in full galla, so 
i guess it would be all right after all to make the waistcoat medium grey.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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If this doesn't work for you *http://tinyurl.com/bpdfy*

try googling on "royal society tartar lamb" (without the quotes).  It 
should be the first hit on the list. 

Within that article is quite an explanation of the stuff...

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

>
> No it isn't.  All I got was a website that wanted me to sign up.  
> Where's the article?
>

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Sigh....another reminder of an article I have promised to write (for 
years!).  The other type of pleats are typically called organ pipe 
pleats.  There are a number of different ways to achieve the tapered 
tube look....

Sg

msraella@yahoo.com wrote:

>I'm unsure about the pleating. Some sites insist on cartridge pleating but not all the paintings look like cartridge pleats. 
>

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I've brought these together into a single response.

>From: WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>Marc, you are affiliated with a University right?  So I wouldn't be
>giving anything away by sharing this source I found?

Well it's academia, so you could call it work if you wanted to :)  I can't 
imagine that it would be giving anything away though.  Besides the licensing 
security  won't let it get past through -that- link.  However, with the 
title and author we can pull up the item.  Let me see if there are any other 
copies since this one is only held by two libraries on the planet.

>*Die textilen Byssus-Reliquien des Christlichen Abendlandes, aufbewahrt
>in den Kirchen zu Köln, Aachen, Cornelimünster, Mainz and Prag.*
>*Author: *Bock, Franz, 1823-1899.
>*Publication: *Aachen, 1895

OCLC: 27455177

>Now granted it is written in a "suspect" time, but it migh have some
>clues.  You have my curiosity peaked now.  BTW, I checked the electronic
>Middle English Compendium and neither Byssus nor Bissus are there.

And they should be.  The OED has as one of its citations: 1398 TREVISA Barth 
De P.R. XVII. xcvii. (1495) 664 Therbe many manere flexe . but the fayrest 
of al growyth in Egypte: for therof is Bissus made ryght fayre and whyte as 
snowe.  [Trevisa in this case is Trevisa, John de Bartholomeus (de 
Glanvilla) De proprietatibus rerum tr. 1398 (Tollemache MS.; Add. MS. (B.M.) 
27944; MS. e Museo (Bodl.) 16; W. de Worde 1495; 1535)}

>This might be a prospective lead:
>http://www.helfordmarineconservation.co.uk/newsletters/30article2.htm

I've printed it off and will be reading it shortly.
-------
>*http://tinyurl.com/cpvvu
>Well, if it is true, there they are!

The drawbacks to deep-linking :)

(If anyone else is following this, Go to the British Museum base page and 
search collections for gloves.  )

>------------------------------
>More cool stuff!
>http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/n1dr7rfquj3kng4pxgfy/contributions/e/a/0/4/ea04bp9fjbb5k73n.pdf
>*http://tinyurl.com/7hk3z*

Do you have a more complete citation?  My university isn't subscribed 
through this link.

Marc


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Just an FYI -- free sites will usually allow linking, but may have security 
in place to discourage deep linking (linking to a page deep within a site).

Sites that cost money generally have stuff in place to prohibit use of a 
link to someone who doesn't have the right IP address.  I would need a proxy 
server set up to emulate whatever the host's site IP address is, and that 
usually requires an account with the IP host.

For example, if I give you a link to a reference in the online OED, you 
would need to have an account with this university, or be able to emulate 
such an account, to use that link - even if you had your own account with 
the OED.

The technology's not perfect ::)

Marc, the ILL Librarian.


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At 15:42 20/10/2005, you wrote:
>Hi.
>In The Art of Dress by Ashelford, i have found a fashionprint of a 
>man wearing demi galla. He has lilc breeches and waistcoat, and a 
>green jacket. These collours are equally dark. Demi Galla was unlike 
>the full court dress only embroidered with a small edge. He is 
>escorting a lady in full galla, so i guess it would be all right 
>after all to make the waistcoat medium grey.
>
>Bjarne


Is this fashion plate from "Galerie des Modes"1778-1787? If so, the 
original colour of the man's suit is a sort of dark apple green, all 
three pieces. with a blue lining to the coat. The date is 1779. It is 
described as "gros de Naples" and is embroidered with "paillettes". 
He is on the right and the lady in court dress is on the left, 
wearing purple and carrying a small purse in her hand, collecting for 
charity according to the text.

This may not be the same, but I cannot find my copy of the Ashelford 
book to compare.

Suzi


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From: Catrijn vanden Westhende <catrijn@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Pinna Wool-a whole dang article! (was Strange
	spinning question)
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Status: RO

The article is available online as part of an academic journal:
Notes & Records of the Royal Society [of London]
The complete reference is:
Notes Rec. R. Soc. Lond. 51 (1), 23–34 (1997)
THE ROYAL SOCIETY AND THE TARTAR LAMB by JOHN H. APPLEBY

It is not free to the general public; I was able to access it from
university computers because apparently our library is subscribed to
the online version of this journal.  If anyone is particularly
interested in this subject matter, you might try asking a local
university library whether they have a subscription - you may be able
to access it from their computers and print it off from there.

Catrijn

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Subject: [h-cost] Rickrack work
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Does anyone know where I can get patterns or pattern booklets for 
rickrack work that does not involve knitting or crochet, just sewing the 
rickwork together in patterns?  I've seen a few Victorian and Edwardian 
garments that used it (the Victorians tended to call it "wavy braid") 
but not patterns that I can remember.  I'm not looking for freebies, but 
if anyone has the title of an antique or modern book, booklet, or 
magazine I'll hunt it up and buy it.

Thanks for any info.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com


>
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Subject: [h-cost] English Gable Hoods
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As I am fighting a losing battle with a gable hood I am making for a 
museum (for members of the public to try on, so all the bits have to 
be sewn together - eurk!) I have been looking for as many images of 
gable hoods as I can find. Curiously I have only found drawings and 
paintings by Holbein, apart from the Margaret of Beaufort (I think - 
early) one.

Does anyone have other references? To save time, I already have the 
following sites as reference.

    * <http://costume.dm.net/headwear/gable1.html>The English Gable Hood
    * <http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/gable.html>Tudor Gable 
Headdress: A Portfolio of Images
    * <http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/enghood1.html>An English 
Hood: Step-by-step Instructions
    * <http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/englishhood.html>Making an 
English or Gable Hood
    * <http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/englishhood.html>An English Hood Pattern
    * <http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/gableinst.html>Tudor Gable 
Headdress Illustrated: Step by Step Directions

Suzi (who needs about 5 hands!) 
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Pinna Wool article-You don't need a subscription!
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Status: RO

I am sorry for all the confusion on this article, but you DON'T need a 
subscription....I don't have one!

I see that the link isn't working, but it did before I sent it...okay so 
I am confused about that, but you can just google for it as described 
below.  Once you link to the site you can click on the right for the PDF 
or HTML version.  If that doesn't work for you, I can send it to you 
offline if you are still interested.

Sg


WickedFrau wrote:

> If this doesn't work for you *http://tinyurl.com/bpdfy*
>
> try googling on "royal society tartar lamb" (without the quotes).  It 
> should be the first hit on the list. 
>
> Within that article is quite an explanation of the stuff...
>
> Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>
>>
>> No it isn't.  All I got was a website that wanted me to sign up.  
>> Where's the article?
>>
>

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Marc Carlson wrote:

> Besides the licensing security  won't let it get past through -that- 
> link.  However, with the title and author we can pull up the item.  
> Let me see if there are any other copies since this one is only held 
> by two libraries on the planet.

Whoops, didn't mean for you to try to link to it.  Sorry about the 
confusion.

>
> Do you have a more complete citation?  My university isn't subscribed 
> through this link.
>

Mine doesn't either, I just happened across it in a google search.  But 
here is the citation:
*
*
*ISSN:* 0035-9149 (Paper) 1743-0178 (Online)
*Issue:* Volume 51, Number 1 / January 22, 1997
*Pages:* 23 - 34
*DOI:* 10.1098/rsnr.1997.0003
*The Royal Society and the Tartar lamb*

J. H. Appleby ^A1

^A1  16 Pine Close, Upton Road, Norwich NR4 7PU, UK

*Abstract:*

The Tartar, Scythian or vegetable lamb--a zoophyte, or creature on the 
borderline between an animal and a plant--was a subject of interest to 
the Royal Society for many years. For convenience, the material 
connected with it has been arranged under three main headings on a 
broadly chronological basis.


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I didn't get that to turn up the gloves, but a search on mussel did.  Also try Sir Hans Sloane...a collector of curiosities.

I have to say, the gloves sure don't look particularly impressive but there isn't a good close up.
Julie
----  <h-costume@indra.com> wrote:

> Subject: [h-cost] RE: Archves (was Strange spinning question)-the
> 	gloves are online at the British Museum!
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <BAY0-SMTP08B07A03EAC527991A1222A9700@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> *http://tinyurl.com/cpvvu
> 
> Well, if it is true, there they are! 

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From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Free pattern
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Heh. Makes me feel less fat than curvy which makes me like them.

On 10/20/05, Betsy Marshal <betsy@softwareinnovation.com> wrote:
>
> I like their sizing ranges- Slinky girl, glamour girl and curvy Girl!!
> B.
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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>
> Has anyone on the list managed to find any examples of organ-pipe (rolled)
> pleating prior to the 18th century? I agree that many of the styles of 15th
> and 16th century clothing look like they use them, but for the life of me
> (and despite two trips to Europe), I haven't been able to find any
> diocumentation for them better than "well, the paiting *looks* like that's
> they type of pleat they used..."
>  Any help would be appreciated - thanks!
> -Wendy
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] waistcoat again
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Hi Suzi,
No it is not Galleries des modes et costumes francais, but a fashion journal 
called "Cahier de Costumes francaise.
I must try to find out if this fashion journal is on the library of museum 
of fine arts, cause i have never noticed this one before. Quality of the 
print is equally as fine as the modes et costumes journal.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] waistcoat again


> At 15:42 20/10/2005, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>In The Art of Dress by Ashelford, i have found a fashionprint of a man 
>>wearing demi galla. He has lilc breeches and waistcoat, and a green 
>>jacket. These collours are equally dark. Demi Galla was unlike the full 
>>court dress only embroidered with a small edge. He is escorting a lady in 
>>full galla, so i guess it would be all right after all to make the 
>>waistcoat medium grey.
>>
>>Bjarne
>
>
> Is this fashion plate from "Galerie des Modes"1778-1787? If so, the 
> original colour of the man's suit is a sort of dark apple green, all three 
> pieces. with a blue lining to the coat. The date is 1779. It is described 
> as "gros de Naples" and is embroidered with "paillettes". He is on the 
> right and the lady in court dress is on the left, wearing purple and 
> carrying a small purse in her hand, collecting for charity according to 
> the text.
>
> This may not be the same, but I cannot find my copy of the Ashelford book 
> to compare.
>
> Suzi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>From: Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net>
>A photograph of an exhibit of Byssus (including the mollusk, filaments, and
>sleeves made from it) is reproduced on page 114 of

Cool.

>Les Etoffes...

I'll see if I can't find a copy, but thanks.  I'd like a scan of the picture 
please, if that's ok.:

>"A propos d'une soierie fraçonnée dite bysus", C.I.E.T.A., 1983, n 57/58,
>pp. 50-56.

That shouldn't be too hard to dig up.

Marc


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At 19:30 20/10/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Suzi,
>No it is not Galleries des modes et costumes francais, but a fashion 
>journal called "Cahier de Costumes francaise.
>I must try to find out if this fashion journal is on the library of 
>museum of fine arts, cause i have never noticed this one before. 
>Quality of the print is equally as fine as the modes et costumes journal.


I shall be interested to learn the results of your search. As you 
know, fashion plates were copied one magazine to another, and the 
descriptions sound similar. (I have a later plate (1798/9 that is a 
copy of a rare and famous Richard Phillips!) By the way, I love the 
idea of the rose and grey - following your research for my information too.

Suzi

>>>In The Art of Dress by Ashelford, i have found a fashionprint of a 
>>>man wearing demi galla. He has lilc breeches and waistcoat, and a 
>>>green jacket. These collours are equally dark. Demi Galla was 
>>>unlike the full court dress only embroidered with a small edge. He 
>>>is escorting a lady in full galla, so i guess it would be all 
>>>right after all to make the waistcoat medium grey.
>>>
>>>Bjarne
>>
>>
>>Is this fashion plate from "Galerie des Modes"1778-1787? If so, the 
>>original colour of the man's suit is a sort of dark apple green, 
>>all three pieces. with a blue lining to the coat. The date is 1779. 
>>It is described as "gros de Naples" and is embroidered with 
>>"paillettes". He is on the right and the lady in court dress is on 
>>the left, wearing purple and carrying a small purse in her hand, 
>>collecting for charity according to the text.
>>
>>This may not be the same, but I cannot find my copy of the 
>>Ashelford book to compare.





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I'm not sure if you want organ pipe pleating or rolled pleats 
documentation, but if it is the former, the Metropolitan Museum of Art 
has a military base which is organ pipe pleated (Early 16th century).  
Blanche Paynes "History of Costume" has a discussion and a pattern for 
it.  I've spent some time looking for an earlier word for them, but have 
not come up with it in English or German.  The English word only goes 
back to to about 1890.  The current German word Röhrenfalten doesn't 
appear in Grimm's etemological dictionary.  I have queried both Leo 
online forums (back in March 05) and non-current German forum (just today):

If you find anything, I'd sure like to hear about it.

Sg

>>Has anyone on the list managed to find any examples of organ-pipe (rolled)...
>>    
>>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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Would someone please be so kind as to provide a thumbnail description of either or both "organ pipe pleating" or "rolled pleating," or post an informative link or two?  I can't even begin to picture what this might be...
 
Thanks!
KP


WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com> wrote:
I'm not sure if you want organ pipe pleating or rolled pleats 
documentation, but if it is the former, the Metropolitan Museum of Art 
has a military base which is organ pipe pleated (Early 16th century). 
Blanche Paynes "History of Costume" has a discussion and a pattern for 
it. I've spent some time looking for an earlier word for them, but have 
not come up with it in English or German. The English word only goes 
back to to about 1890. The current German word Röhrenfalten doesn't 
appear in Grimm's etemological dictionary. I have queried both Leo 
online forums (back in March 05) and non-current German forum (just today):

If you find anything, I'd sure like to hear about it.

Sg

>>Has anyone on the list managed to find any examples of organ-pipe (rolled)...
>> 
>>

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>If this doesn't work for you *http://tinyurl.com/bpdfy*

That got it.  Thank you very much.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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>Does anyone know where I can get patterns or pattern booklets for rickrack 
>work that does not involve knitting or crochet, just sewing the rickwork 
>together in patterns?  I've seen a few Victorian and Edwardian garments 
>that used it (the Victorians tended to call it "wavy braid") but not 
>patterns that I can remember.  I'm not looking for freebies, but if anyone 
>has the title of an antique or modern book, booklet, or magazine I'll hunt 
>it up and buy it.

All of what I've seen involves crochet.  But I do own one printed sheet 
from the Wright trim company, showing one how to make an early 1950s dress 
entirely out of the stuff.  You might ask them if they have a copy in their 
archives (because I can't find mine).

BTW, I've always seen the stuff called "wave braid", never "wavy braid" or 
"waved braid".

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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http://costume.dm.net/pleats/
http://www.heatherspages.net/images/flemish/rolled%20pleats.jpg
http://home.znet.com/savaskan/germans/images/gerry-5.jpg

I'll have to poke around for my tutorial on rolled pleats....I know I 
took the pictures for it...but I don't see it on my website...could have 
sworn it was there.

Organ Pipe Pleats and rolled pleats can look pretty much the same from 
the outside.  How they are constructed makes the difference. I haven't 
seen anything online for how to make the former.  I took a class at 
Estrella years ago from Julie Hirsch and have been promising for years 
to write up how to do it.....guess I'd better get on it...

Sg

Kathryn Parke wrote:

>Would someone please be so kind as to provide a thumbnail description of either or both "organ pipe pleating" or "rolled pleating," or post an informative link or two?  I can't even begin to picture what this might be...
> 
>Thanks!
>KP
>  
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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Status: RO

This is fascinating -- thank you!  It seems rather impractical, though -- does it provide extra warmth, perhaps, having all that extra fabric?  Or was it just one more conspicuous consumption thing, do you suppose?  I can certainly see how the men would appreciate looking that much more bulked-up -- I'm thinking of Henry VIII's enormous silhouette -- but I'd think the weight alone would make it far less comfortable than other styles.
 
KP


WickedFrau <wickedfrau@msn.com> wrote:
http://costume.dm.net/pleats/
http://www.heatherspages.net/images/flemish/rolled%20pleats.jpg
http://home.znet.com/savaskan/germans/images/gerry-5.jpg

I'll have to poke around for my tutorial on rolled pleats....I know I 
took the pictures for it...but I don't see it on my website...could have 
sworn it was there.

Organ Pipe Pleats and rolled pleats can look pretty much the same from 
the outside. How they are constructed makes the difference. I haven't 
seen anything online for how to make the former. I took a class at 
Estrella years ago from Julie Hirsch and have been promising for years 
to write up how to do it.....guess I'd better get on it...

Sg

Kathryn Parke wrote:

>Would someone please be so kind as to provide a thumbnail description of either or both "organ pipe pleating" or "rolled pleating," or post an informative link or two? I can't even begin to picture what this might be...
> 
>Thanks!
>KP
> 
>

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>
> All of what I've seen involves crochet.  But I do own one printed 
> sheet from the Wright trim company, showing one how to make an early 
> 1950s dress entirely out of the stuff.  You might ask them if they 
> have a copy in their archives (because I can't find mine).

I'll look into it, although I'd rather have Victorian/Edwardian 
patterns.  Big expanses of it sewn together in patterns can actually 
look really nice.

>
> BTW, I've always seen the stuff called "wave braid", never "wavy 
> braid" or "waved braid".
>
>
I've seen it called all three, as well as being classified under vaguer 
terms like "fancy braid."

Best,

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Rickrack work
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>>All of what I've seen involves crochet.  But I do own one printed sheet 
>>from the Wright trim company, showing one how to make an early 1950s 
>>dress entirely out of the stuff.  You might ask them if they have a copy 
>>in their archives (because I can't find mine).
>
>I'll look into it, although I'd rather have Victorian/Edwardian 
>patterns.  Big expanses of it sewn together in patterns can actually look 
>really nice.
>
>>
>>BTW, I've always seen the stuff called "wave braid", never "wavy braid" 
>>or "waved braid".
>>
>I've seen it called all three, as well as being classified under vaguer 
>terms like "fancy braid."

Dover has a Home Art Crochet book in reprint, using wave braid and 
crochet.  You might look at that and try duplicating the work in 
needle-lace stitches.  I think crochet was the preferred method of 
assembling these pieces, historically.  And the screeches caused when 
modern people realize they're looking at ric-rac is worth the effort ;)


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:54:23 +1300
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<< I'm unsure about the pleating. Some sites insist on cartridge pleating
but not all the paintings look like cartridge pleats. I'm thinking the front
piece (Top part) is held in place with hook & eyes while the bottom is laced
from side to side through concealed lacing rings.>>

This is because I know people use the term cartridge pleat to mean a great
variety of pleat types, not just  narrow firm pleats that jut away from the
body. I think it's used by some to describe pleats that are not sewn into a
waistband or between the layers of fabric for the bodice (shell and lining.)


http://www.kannikskorner.com/infostitches.htm
http://www.vertetsable.com/research_vocabulary.htm
Descriptiosn that are probably the truest of the term.

http://www.sewmuchmoreinfo.com/Sewopaedia.html
This is the only reference I can find that suggests the pleats are merely
rounded rather than lying flat.

So it all depends on who is using the term;)

http://costume.dm.net/pleats/
I have used very deep pleats on two German skirts and I love the way the
pleats hang to the ground.
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca
The Anna Meyer dress and my 1570s Westfalen dress (still in progress.)
For each top edge of the pleats seen 8 times the amount of fabric was used.
This is really more suited to light weight fabrics though as it can get
bulky. So I wouldn't want to use it on say a velvet or wool gown.

In that regard the best bang for buck is to use a circular/gored pattern.
The Bases Sg mentioned are basically a big circle. This means you have far
less fabric at the waist to add bulk than you have at the hem, where you do
want a lot of fabric.
This is also the constuction of the Mary of Hungary gown;)
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary
I was kindly sent photos that show the back of the gown, and you can see
there is some ease at the back that causes the skirt to hang in folds from
the waist.

There are a few very definite examples of circular skirts as well:
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1540erzherzoginanna.htm
http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/bilderkatalog/habsburger/abb10s.htm
Both use sunray pleating, and indeed Anna's shows the direction of the grain
of the fabric quite well.

<< Now another question, many of the portraits have a bodice style that
while still having the piece in front also have a high collar. Could you
make a jacket without sleeves rather than making 2 dresses, one with the
collar and one without? I have seen what looks like a capelet with a high
collar that gives much the same effect. >>

I think you may be referring to a gollar and a gollar style dress?

It depends on what you want. I wouldn't make what is essentially a vest, as
it'll be very much more bulky than a single bodice. A gollar is a wonderful
acessory as well, it does make a difference to warmth and is nice and
portable.
And there are a variety of styles, dependant on time and place.


And as regards the bands at the back, I still haven't seen any, but I have
seen low necks filled in with hemden:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/glittersweet/frau/7003224.jpg

I would really appreciate any clues about the artwork that shows bands at
the back, I'd like to be able to see them.

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com




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Sorry, that snipped URL is either not in our records, or private, or 
spam-protected. Let's snip another URL.

Jacqueline Johnson wrote:
> I thought I'd share this fan on ebay someone has.
> http://snipurl.com/irwfFrom the description:
> This unique fan is painted with gouache on paper and is in very good
> condition No tears and no repairs. The color is bright and the ivory sticks
> are very high quality. The guards are laminated with mother of pearl shell
> at the top and at the base. The sticks are carved to display a woven pattern
> when the fan is closed (see photo). We will ship ivory to overseas buyers
> who have a U.S. agent to clear the item for international shipping. . The
> leaf measures 16 1/2 inches across.Guard sticks are 10 1/4 inches."
> 

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Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:23:40 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fan
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At 09:02 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
>I thought I'd share this fan on ebay someone 
>has. http://snipurl.com/irwfFrom the 
>description: "Very Rare and Collectible -Early 
>18th Century hand fan with serpentine ivory 
>sticks mounted with leaf depicting the Biblical 
>story (Numbers 21: 4 ­ 9) of The Israelites in 
>the desert. Their punishment for speaking out 
>against God and Moses was to be plagued with 
>poisonous snakes. When the people repented, 
>Moses was told by God to make an image of a 
>snake of brass and set in on a tau-shaped (T) 
>pole. It had a miraculous curative effect. This 
>unique fan is painted with gouache on paper and 
>is in very good condition No tears and no 
>repairs. The color is bright and the ivory 
>sticks are very high quality. The guards are 
>laminated with mother of pearl shell at the top 
>and at the base. The sticks are carved to 
>display a woven pattern when the fan is closed 
>(see photo). We will ship ivory to overseas 
>buyers who have a U.S. agent to clear the item 
>for international shipping. . The leaf measures 
>16 1/2 inches across.Guard sticks are 10 1/4 
>inches." I thought that several who do this time 
>line would enjoy this. Bice _______________________________________________

Unfortunately, the snipped URL did not work.  The 
link merely takes one to the SnipURL site.  You 
might just give us the eBay link.  Those usually work just fine.


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 


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Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:41:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kathryn Parke <kjp1685@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fan
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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You can get the link to work if you get rid of the "From" on the end of it.  In any event, here's the eBay link:
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-1720-Ivory-Fan-of-Moses-the-Brazen-Serpent_W0QQitemZ8343479166QQcategoryZ20288QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
KP
 
 


Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net> wrote:
At 09:02 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
>I thought I'd share this fan on ebay someone 
>has. http://snipurl.com/irwfFrom the 
>description: "Very Rare and Collectible -Early 
>18th Century hand fan with serpentine ivory 
>sticks mounted with leaf depicting the Biblical 
>story (Numbers 21: 4 &shy; 9) of The Israelites in 
>the desert. Their punishment for speaking out 
>against God and Moses was to be plagued with 
>poisonous snakes. When the people repented, 
>Moses was told by God to make an image of a 
>snake of brass and set in on a tau-shaped (T) 
>pole. It had a miraculous curative effect. This 
>unique fan is painted with gouache on paper and 
>is in very good condition No tears and no 
>repairs. The color is bright and the ivory 
>sticks are very high quality. The guards are 
>laminated with mother of pearl shell at the top 
>and at the base. The sticks are carved to 
>display a woven pattern when the fan is closed 
>(see photo). We will ship ivory to overseas 
>buyers who have a U.S. agent to clear the item 
>for international shipping. . The leaf measures 
>16 1/2 inches across.Guard sticks are 10 1/4 
>inches." I thought that several who do this time 
>line would enjoy this. Bice _______________________________________________

Unfortunately, the snipped URL did not work. The 
link merely takes one to the SnipURL site. You 
might just give us the eBay link. Those usually work just fine.


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 


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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:43:46 -0400
From: Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fan
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The really annoying part is that it's working on the other lists and on my
livejournal perfectly fine. I'm wondering if it's an embedding issue. Gah.
Anyhow ladies here's the ebay link. I don't post these because frankly half
the time they chop in half and are annoying.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-1720-Ivory-Fan-of-Moses-the-Brazen-Serpent_W0QQitemZ8343479166QQcategoryZ20288QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bice

On 10/21/05, Kitty Felton <basyefelton@floodcity.net> wrote:
>
> Sorry, that snipped URL is either not in our records, or private, or
> spam-protected. Let's snip another URL.
>
> Jacqueline Johnson wrote:
> > I thought I'd share this fan on ebay someone has.
> > http://snipurl.com/irwfFrom the description:
> > This unique fan is painted with gouache on paper and is in very good
> > condition No tears and no repairs. The color is bright and the ivory
> sticks
> > are very high quality. The guards are laminated with mother of pearl
> shell
> > at the top and at the base. The sticks are carved to display a woven
> pattern
> > when the fan is closed (see photo). We will ship ivory to overseas
> buyers
> > who have a U.S. agent to clear the item for international shipping. .
> The
> > leaf measures 16 1/2 inches across.Guard sticks are 10 1/4 inches."
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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On 10/20/05, Jacqueline Johnson <kristalori@gmail.com> wrote:
> The really annoying part is that it's working on the other lists and on my
> livejournal perfectly fine.
<snip>
> Bice

> > Jacqueline Johnson wrote:
> > > I thought I'd share this fan on ebay someone has.
> > > http://snipurl.com/irwfFrom the description:
<snip>

It works if you take the "From" off the end of the link. :-)

Andie

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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Not historical, but fun....

http://www.costume-con.org/CClink/CC13/Photos/pages/ff06.shtml

Sandy

At 11:02 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:14:28 -0700
>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Rickrack work
>
> >Does anyone know where I can get patterns or pattern booklets for rickrack
> >work that does not involve knitting or crochet, just sewing the rickwork
> >together in patterns?  I've seen a few Victorian and Edwardian garments
> >that used it (the Victorians tended to call it "wavy braid") but not
> >patterns that I can remember.
>
>All of what I've seen involves crochet.  But I do own one printed sheet
>from the Wright trim company, showing one how to make an early 1950s dress
>entirely out of the stuff.  You might ask them if they have a copy in their
>archives (because I can't find mine).
>
>BTW, I've always seen the stuff called "wave braid", never "wavy braid" or
>"waved braid".
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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At 06:03 21/10/2005, you wrote:
>Not historical, but fun....
>
>http://www.costume-con.org/CClink/CC13/Photos/pages/ff06.shtml
>
>Sandy
>
>At 11:02 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:14:28 -0700
>>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
>>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Rickrack work
>>
>> >Does anyone know where I can get patterns or pattern booklets for rickrack
>> >work that does not involve knitting or crochet, just sewing the rickwork
>> >together in patterns?  I've seen a few Victorian and Edwardian garments
>> >that used it (the Victorians tended to call it "wavy braid") but not
>> >patterns that I can remember.
>>
>>All of what I've seen involves crochet.  But I do own one printed sheet
>>from the Wright trim company, showing one how to make an early 1950s dress
>>entirely out of the stuff.  You might ask them if they have a copy in their
>>archives (because I can't find mine).


Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I 
understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, 
and would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very 
popular trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! 
But ric-rac involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another 
example of two countries separated by the same language?

Suzi


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From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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>Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I 
>understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, and 
>would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very popular 
>trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! But ric-rac 
>involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another example of two 
>countries separated by the same language?

Go here:

http://crochet.about.com/library/weekly/aa082600.htm

This article doesn't go back as far as the early 1800s, from where I saw my 
earliest example of this stuff, but read it and learn what Fran wants to do 
without crochet.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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At 07:10 21/10/2005, you wrote:

>>Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what 
>>I understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a 
>>sale, and would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It 
>>was a very popular trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - 
>>that's the 1950's! But ric-rac involving crochet is a total mystery 
>>to me. Yet another example of two countries separated by the same language?
>
>Go here:
>
>http://crochet.about.com/library/weekly/aa082600.htm
>
>This article doesn't go back as far as the early 1800s, from where I 
>saw my earliest example of this stuff, but read it and learn what 
>Fran wants to do without crochet.


Thanks Carolyn. You learn something new all the time. Not something 
I'd ever come across. I don't remember it in either my facsimile of 
Mrs. Beeton, or Therese de Dillmont.

Suzi


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UNPRECEDENTED TEXTILE & COSTUME SALE 

          Since Thanksgiving, 2004, Charles A.
Whitaker and Karen 
Augusta
have been in consultation with the Denver Art Museum
to plan one the 
most
important textile and fashion collector events in
recent memory, the
de-accession of a large portion of the Denver Art
Museum's historic 
clothing
collection. This vast collection, much of which has
been unseen by the
public for over fifty years, will be sold unreserved
in a series of 
auctions
run by the Charles A. Whitaker Auction Co. The first
sale is to be held
November 18th and 19th, 2005 in New Hope,
Pennsylvania.  
	The majority of lots for the fall auction come
directly from the
back rooms and storage facility of this important
American museum. 
Museum
de-accessions from The Philadelphia Museum of Art and
the Fashion 
Institute
of Design & Merchandising and an important private
collection of 
textiles
and garments from the Chew family make up the balance
of the 2-day, 
1090 lot
sale. The Chew textiles have been in storage since
their removal from
Cliveden Mansion, the 18th century National Trust
property in 
Germantown,
PA.
	This auction's offerings span three centuries of
textile and costume
history. Featured items include a Schiaparelli
bead-encrusted jacket, a 
rare
1920's Chanel evening wrap, wedding shoes dated 1736,
18th & 19th C.
corsets, rare 18th & 19th C. men's, women's and
children's clothing, 
20th C.
couture & designer clothing, a 17th C. woven Swedish
Biederwind panel,  
as
well as other textiles, fabrics, laces, table & bed
linens.
	Historians and costume collectors can now preview a
photo gallery of
sale highlights and the complete catalogue at the
auctioneer's website,
www.whitakerauction.com.  A full day preview is
scheduled for Thursday,
November 17 from 1-6 PM. For additional information,
catalogs, 
pictures,
phone and order bids visit the website or call Charles
A. Whitaker at
215-817-4600 or Karen Augusta at 802-463-3333

"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright


		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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>I don't remember it in either my facsimile of Mrs. Beeton, or Therese de 
>Dillmont.

Wave braid crocheted together is really big in the 1880s, after Mrs. 
Beeton's and M. Dillmont's time.  Start looking for it then.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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There are examples of edgings and collars made from waved braid in 1850s and 1860s 
editions of Godey's Lady's Book, Peterson's Magazine and other period magazines. 

I have several original mid-19th century garments with waved braid trim in my 
collection. Some are created with crochet, but two examples appear to be made with 
a needle-lace technique. I haven't found instructions for that technique so far, 
but I'm still looking.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2 -5, 2006



>>I don't remember it in either my facsimile of Mrs. Beeton, or Therese de 
>>Dillmont.
>
>Wave braid crocheted together is really big in the 1880s, after Mrs. 
>Beeton's and M. Dillmont's time.  Start looking for it then.


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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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Quoting Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>:

>
>
> Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I 
> understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, 
> and would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very 
> popular trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! 
> But ric-rac involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another 
> example of two countries separated by the same language?
>

Don't feel bad -- I"m on *this* side of the pond (i.e., the states), and
I have *no* clue either.   The rick-rack that I remember was almost
zig-zag like a bunch of NNNNNNNN except not that tight -- more like a
string of sideways Zs

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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My favorite example of ric-rac is the decoration on Bia's dress (daughter 
of Cosimo I Medici, Eleanora's step-daughter) in the portrait by Bronzino. 
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bronzino/1/bia.jpg

Beth Matney

At 08:22 AM 10/21/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:10:55 -0700
>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20051020230915.0325dc38@mail.frys.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
> >Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I
> >understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, and
> >would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very popular
> >trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! But ric-rac
> >involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another example of two
> >countries separated by the same language?
>
>Go here:
>
>http://crochet.about.com/library/weekly/aa082600.htm
>
>This article doesn't go back as far as the early 1800s, from where I saw my
>earliest example of this stuff, but read it and learn what Fran wants to do
>without crochet.
>
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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At 14:44 21/10/2005, you wrote:
>My favorite example of ric-rac is the decoration on Bia's dress 
>(daughter of Cosimo I Medici, Eleanora's step-daughter) in the 
>portrait by Bronzino. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bronzino/1/bia.jpg
>
>Beth Matney

Great image - that's exactly what I think of as "ric rac" and what's 
more, I can buy stuff like that in a shop in the centre of London! 
Thanks so much - a very useful piece of research.

Suzi




>> >Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I
>> >understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, and
>> >would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very popular
>> >trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! But ric-rac
>> >involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another example of two
>> >countries separated by the same language?
>>
>>Go here:
>>
>>http://crochet.about.com/library/weekly/aa082600.htm
>>
>>This article doesn't go back as far as the early 1800s, from where I saw my
>>earliest example of this stuff, but read it and learn what Fran wants to do
>>without crochet.
>>
>>
>>         CarolynKayta Barrows


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I'd say the major point was conspicuous consumption.  I think they are 
very impressive looking especialy the ones where the pleats are 
alternating colors and sometimes have two colors stacked on top of each 
other.  I am thinking mostly of the miliatary bases in this case, but I 
think I remember one woman's gown with alternating colors.  (Oddly 
enough, as I recall it was it a book on the Elizabethan time period).  
These to me, are a clear indicator of one of the ways the organ pipe 
pleats are made.  If you can find the pictures of the military bases (I 
have them somewhere, I will look for those too), they show that the 
pleats are actually seams sewing the triangular "gores" together To hold 
the shape of the pleats they ran a tape along the back in several 
places.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were stuffed in some cases.

Sg

Kathryn Parke wrote:

>This is fascinating -- thank you!  It seems rather impractical, though -- does it provide extra warmth, perhaps, having all that extra fabric?  Or was it just one more conspicuous consumption thing, do you suppose?  I can certainly see how the men would appreciate looking that much more bulked-up -- I'm thinking of Henry VIII's enormous silhouette -- but I'd think the weight alone would make it far less comfortable than other styles.
> 
>KP
>
>  
>

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While you are looking at this fan be sure to check out the 19th century 
mica fan the vendor is also selling.  I think it is  even cooler!
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From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American museum sale notice
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What a great way to spend a couple of hours!  Now, if I just had a few thousand dollars to blow, I could mail in a few bids.  Ah well, at least I can look at the fabulous stuff.  Thanks!!

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender
--- katherine sanders <katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: katherine sanders <katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:54:14 +0100 (BST)
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] American museum sale notice
UNPRECEDENTED TEXTILE & COSTUME SALE
Since Thanksgiving, 2004, Charles A.
Whitaker and Karen
Augusta
have been in consultation with the Denver Art Museum
to plan one the
most
important textile and fashion collector events in
recent memory, the
de-accession of a large portion of the Denver Art
Museum's historic
clothing
collection. This vast collection, much of which has
been unseen by the
public for over fifty years, will be sold unreserved
in a series of
auctions
run by the Charles A. Whitaker Auction Co. The first
sale is to be held
November 18th and 19th, 2005 in New Hope,
Pennsylvania.
The majority of lots for the fall auction come
directly from the
back rooms and storage facility of this important
American museum.
Museum
de-accessions from The Philadelphia Museum of Art and
the Fashion
Institute
of Design & Merchandising and an important private
collection of
textiles
and garments from the Chew family make up the balance
of the 2-day,
1090 lot
sale. The Chew textiles have been in storage since
their removal from
Cliveden Mansion, the 18th century National Trust
property in
Germantown,
PA.
This auction's offerings span three centuries of
textile and costume
history. Featured items include a Schiaparelli
bead-encrusted jacket, a
rare
1920's Chanel evening wrap, wedding shoes dated 1736,
18th & 19th C.
corsets, rare 18th & 19th C. men's, women's and
children's clothing,
20th C.
couture & designer clothing, a 17th C. woven Swedish
Biederwind panel,
as
well as other textiles, fabrics, laces, table & bed
linens.
Historians and costume collectors can now preview a
photo gallery of
sale highlights and the complete catalogue at the
auctioneer's website,
www.whitakerauction.com. A full day preview is
scheduled for Thursday,
November 17 from 1-6 PM. For additional information,
catalogs,
pictures,
phone and order bids visit the website or call Charles
A. Whitaker at
215-817-4600 or Karen Augusta at 802-463-3333
"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it
will
annoy  enough  people  to  make  it  worth  the  effort" - Herm
Albright
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I'm not at home and can' look at my back issues, but....
 
Didn't Pieceworks magazine have an article on rick rack a while back?  (Huh...rick/rack/back)
 
I Seem to recal that it was a history of rick rack and I think they might have addressed that rick rack/wavy braid difference and shewn at least an example of the sewn together stuff.
 
But don't depend on my memory....
 
Mia in CHarlotte, NC, where they are making her actually work this week
 

 

		
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I wouldn't get hung up on the "wavy braid," "waved braid," etc. versus 
"rickrack" terms. I used "rickrack" because it is a term most people 
recognize now and is used in the titles of many 20th-century booklets on 
rickrack crochet.

The Victorians happily called a wide variety of shapes "wavy braid," or 
just "fancy braid," from the mildly serpentine to the pointy.  They 
showed you a picture of the tatted-and-braid jabot, or whatever, you 
were supposed to make and left it to you to either buy braid that looked 
exactly like it or buy some other braid with somewhat different waves 
and adapt the pattern to it as necessary.   

Fashion terminology is often neither precise nor consistent.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Mia Dappert wrote:

>I'm not at home and can' look at my back issues, but....
> 
>Didn't Pieceworks magazine have an article on rick rack a while back?  (Huh...rick/rack/back)
> 
>I Seem to recal that it was a history of rick rack and I think they might have addressed that rick rack/wavy braid difference and shewn at least an example of the sewn together stuff.
> 
>But don't depend on my memory....
> 
>Mia in CHarlotte, NC, where they are making her actually work this week
> 
>
>  
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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she must have run out of ambition before she ran out of body that needed 
covering.   LOL

Suzi Clarke wrote:
> At 06:03 21/10/2005, you wrote:
> 
>> Not historical, but fun....
>>
>> http://www.costume-con.org/CClink/CC13/Photos/pages/ff06.shtml
>>
>> Sandy
>>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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Suzi Clarke wrote:
> 
> Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I 
> understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, and 
> would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very 
> popular trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! 
> But ric-rac involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another 
> example of two countries separated by the same language?
> 
> Suzi
> 
that's what their talking about.
you can crochet it onto a garment in the same way you crochet lace on, 
imagine battenburg lace as another somewhat similar item.  in battenburg 
lace they are using a sheer lace in place of the Ric-rac braid.

in using it in crochet they are attaching the rickrac with crochet 
stitches between the fabric and the rickrack.   I'm not sure how they 
made a fabric with it, but I've seen rickrack intertwined to make a 
flat, not zigzag braid, so I imagine you could use it just about anyway 
you're imagination could twist it.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Rick Rack
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this stuff IS the same stuff we remember from the 50s-60s.   some is 
crocheted onto and some is not, but it is the same stuff.   Kitty

Suzi Clarke wrote:
> At 14:44 21/10/2005, you wrote:
> 
>> My favorite example of ric-rac is the decoration on Bia's dress 
>> (daughter of Cosimo I Medici, Eleanora's step-daughter) in the 
>> portrait by Bronzino. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bronzino/1/bia.jpg
>>
>> Beth Matney
> 
> 
> Great image - that's exactly what I think of as "ric rac" and what's 
> more, I can buy stuff like that in a shop in the centre of London! 
> Thanks so much - a very useful piece of research.
> 
> Suzi
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> >Could someone explain what "ric-rac" is? It doesn't seem to be what I
>>> >understand. I have several cards of ric-rac braid I got in a sale, and
>>> >would use it to sew on to a garment for decoration. It was a very 
>>> popular
>>> >trim in the mid 50's if I remember right - that's the 1950's! But 
>>> ric-rac
>>> >involving crochet is a total mystery to me. Yet another example of two
>>> >countries separated by the same language?
>>>
>>> Go here:
>>>
>>> http://crochet.about.com/library/weekly/aa082600.htm
>>>
>>> This article doesn't go back as far as the early 1800s, from where I 
>>> saw my
>>> earliest example of this stuff, but read it and learn what Fran wants 
>>> to do
>>> without crochet.
>>>
>>>
>>>         CarolynKayta Barrows
> 


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Beth and Bob Matney wrote:

> My favorite example of ric-rac is the decoration on Bia's dress 
> (daughter of Cosimo I Medici, Eleanora's step-daughter) in the portrait 
> by Bronzino. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bronzino/1/bia.jpg

That looks like rick-rack's sibling to me, not exactly rick-rack as I 
think of it.  The Bronzino example looks more like a straight band with 
half-circle bumps off of it, alternating sides, rather than a wave shape.

It's very interesting, though.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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The Victorians liked "fancy braids" to make tape laces, and lacy 
crocheted, knitted, and tatted constructions.  That's the sort of thing 
rickrack and its variants (in terms of the depth and pointiness of the 
"waves") seem to have been made for originally. 

I have seen a few original garments dating from circa 1880 to circa 1910 
with areas of rackrack lace (yokes, cuffs, whole bodices, wide hem 
trims) that did not include any fancy stitches, but which merely had 
rickrack sewn in patterns, held with ordinary (hand) whipstitches at the 
points. I have an 1880s dress with rickrack wide cuffs and I think some 
other sections somewhere in my collection, but I can't find it. The 
rickrack was coiled into small circular medallions, and then the 
medallions were sewn together.  I've also seen it sewn together in 
straight designs.  It's really quite effective. People who expect 
rickrack to be just a few rows machine sewed on a child's dress don't 
recognize the rickrack in rickrack work for what it is.

There are obvious geometric possibilities for small square medallions, 
straight horizontal or vertical rows, square medallions, and so on.  I'd 
like to find some original Victorian and Edwardian patterns though. I 
mail ordered a 1910s rickrack pattern booklet from a used bookseller 
yesterday but I don't know what's in it yet.

BTW, all the examples I've seen so far were white and were on "lingerie" 
type dresses or wrappers. 

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

>
>> I don't remember it in either my facsimile of Mrs. Beeton, or Therese 
>> de Dillmont.
>
>
> Wave braid crocheted together is really big in the 1880s, after Mrs. 
> Beeton's and M. Dillmont's time.  Start looking for it then.
>
>
>        CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>          www.FunStuft.com
>
>              //// \\\
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: rick rack
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At 12:00 PM -0600 10/21/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
>My favorite example of ric-rac is the decoration on Bia's dress (daughter
>of Cosimo I Medici, Eleanora's step-daughter) in the portrait by Bronzino.
>http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bronzino/1/bia.jpg

OOH and my neighbor had a wedding shawl that was decorated with 
something that looks like that!. Not woven--embroidered. It was a pin 
tuck that was pulled to the left and tacked and then pulled to the 
right. Repeat like forever and do multiple rows--it looks smashing!
Ta
Carol--Fall is here for real--rainy and cool and the leaves are changing!
-- 
Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness!
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Subject: [h-cost] Hair taping on Bronzino painting
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Greetings,

I am delighted to see the trim that looks so much like rick rack on the girls dress.
I was even more delighted to notice that the front portion of her short hair has been taped.

Thanks so much for sharing the double portion.

Lyonet
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Subject: [h-cost] Dress with rickrack lace on concluded ebay auction
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8341058481&fromMakeTrack=true

If the link doesn't work, try searching eBay on the item number.

The rickrack  medallions seem to be held in the center by some kind of 
simple embroidery or needle lace stitch.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Oct 21 18:02:56 2005
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:01:00 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] English Gable Hoods
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Suzi,

Are you looking for detail, or just any images? (to prove it wasn't just 
a figment of Holbein's imagination?)  The Visual History of Costume, 
16th century, has three church brasses, also the portrait of Elizabeth 
of York.

Elizabeth of York's effigy in Westminster Abbey.
Tournament roll from the birth of Prince Henry, 1511 (he died at 8 
weeks), shows all Catherine of Aragon's ladies in waiting in gable 
hoods, with a squared off back section and no back drape.  (Owned by the 
College of Arms, London)
Portrait medal of Anne Boleyn, 1534 (British Museum)

These three from the illustrated version of Antonia Fraser's "The Six 
Wives of Henry VIII", Weidenfeld & Nicholson 1996, 029783567X

And a Lucas Hornebolte miniature of Catherine of Aragon (in the 
collection of the Duke of Buccleuch) - "Sisters to the King" by Maria 
Perry, Andre Deutsch, 1998, 0233990046


Jean



Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk> wrote
>
>As I am fighting a losing battle with a gable hood I am making for a 
>museum (for members of the public to try on, so all the bits have to be 
>sewn together - eurk!) I have been looking for as many images of gable 
>hoods as I can find. Curiously I have only found drawings and paintings 
>by Holbein, apart from the Margaret of Beaufort (I think - early) one.
>
>Does anyone have other references? To save time, I already have the 
>following sites as reference.
>
>   * <http://costume.dm.net/headwear/gable1.html>The English Gable Hood
>   * <http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/gable.html>Tudor Gable 
>Headdress: A Portfolio of Images
>   * <http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/enghood1.html>An English Hood: 
>Step-by-step Instructions
>   * <http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/englishhood.html>Making an English 
>or Gable Hood
>   * <http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/englishhood.html>An English Hood Pattern
>   * <http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/gableinst.html>Tudor Gable 
>Headdress Illustrated: Step by Step Directions
>
>Suzi (who needs about 5 hands!) 
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] English Gable Hoods
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At 23:01 21/10/2005, you wrote:
>Suzi,
>
>Are you looking for detail, or just any images? (to prove it wasn't 
>just a figment of Holbein's imagination?)  The Visual History of 
>Costume, 16th century, has three church brasses, also the portrait 
>of Elizabeth of York.
>
>Elizabeth of York's effigy in Westminster Abbey.
>Tournament roll from the birth of Prince Henry, 1511 (he died at 8 
>weeks), shows all Catherine of Aragon's ladies in waiting in gable 
>hoods, with a squared off back section and no back drape.  (Owned by 
>the College of Arms, London)
>Portrait medal of Anne Boleyn, 1534 (British Museum)
>
>These three from the illustrated version of Antonia Fraser's "The 
>Six Wives of Henry VIII", Weidenfeld & Nicholson 1996, 029783567X
>
>And a Lucas Hornebolte miniature of Catherine of Aragon (in the 
>collection of the Duke of Buccleuch) - "Sisters to the King" by 
>Maria Perry, Andre Deutsch, 1998, 0233990046
>
>
>Jean

Thanks Jean - yes, to prove Holbein hadn't arbitrarily decided to 
draw them and that was the only evidence. I'll try and find the 
Antonia Fraser book - sounds very helpful - another back! I'd 
forgotten the "Visual History" as so many of the paintings are 
reproduced so darkly. I'll go and take another look at that.

Suzi 


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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <43594EBC.2000703@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress with rickrack lace on concluded ebay auction
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:59:51 -0400
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Fran, I just googled "Piecework" rick-rack  and found three volumes of
Weldon"s Needlework that might give you the resources for your project.

Kathleen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 4:25 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Dress with rickrack lace on concluded ebay auction


>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8341058481&fromMakeTrack=true
>
> If the link doesn't work, try searching eBay on the item number.
>
> The rickrack  medallions seem to be held in the center by some kind of
> simple embroidery or needle lace stitch.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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I looked thru the Met's online info, and couldn't find the base.  Can you offer guidance?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: WickedFrau<mailto:wickedfrau@msn.com> 
  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats


  I'm not sure if you want organ pipe pleating or rolled pleats 
  documentation, but if it is the former, the Metropolitan Museum of Art 
  has a military base which is organ pipe pleated (Early 16th century).  
  Blanche Paynes "History of Costume" has a discussion and a pattern for 
  it.  I've spent some time looking for an earlier word for them, but have 
  not come up with it in English or German.  The English word only goes 
  back to to about 1890.  The current German word Röhrenfalten doesn't 
  appear in Grimm's etemological dictionary.  I have queried both Leo 
  online forums (back in March 05) and non-current German forum (just today):

  If you find anything, I'd sure like to hear about it.

  Sg

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Subject: [h-cost] 2 homes available on Fair Isles!
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I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this on my online news page.  

I'd *love* to try and get one of these homes, but that is just a dream.  

Elena/Gia

Americans Clamor for Spot on Scottish Isle
By Associated Press
Fri Oct 21, 5:29 PM

LONDON - The tight-knit community of Fair Isle _ known for the sweaters it produces _ was overwhelmed with U.S. interest when it opened its doors a crack.

The remote island north of the Scottish mainland, home to about 70 people, recently advertised that two homes were available.

The ad drew several hundred inquires and about 80 applications, mostly from Americans, according to the conservation charity National Trust for Scotland, which officially owns the 6-square-mile island.

Many of the applicants have the knitting skills in such high demand on the island, said Angus Jack, regional surveyor for the trust.

The island has long been known for a particular style of knitting with horizontal bands of geometric patterns.

Jack said the community will play a major role in selecting the two families that will inhabit the vacant four-bedroom and five-bedroom houses.

"The island is small, and the island is remote, so although (the new residents) have to be independent in supporting themselves, they will be dependent on others in the community," Jack said. "They have to become an active part of that community as well. Really, that's the kind of people we're looking for."

____

On the Net:

http://www.fairisle.org.uk

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You know, I have that whole series and didn't think to look in it!

Thanks for reminding me.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

>Fran, I just googled "Piecework" rick-rack  and found three volumes of
>Weldon"s Needlework that might give you the resources for your project.
>
>Kathleen
>  
>
>  
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Costume by Ruth Buck ?
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Victorian Costume - and Costume Accessories (ISBN:0903585170) Buck, Ruth.


Another book I'm considering purchasing... does anyone have this or know 
if the contents are worth it? It's an older title so I'm not sure if the 
photos are going to be that good.



Dawn


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume by Ruth Buck ?
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At 16:50 22/10/2005, you wrote:
>Victorian Costume - and Costume Accessories (ISBN:0903585170) Buck, Ruth.
>
>
>Another book I'm considering purchasing... does anyone have this or 
>know if the contents are worth it? It's an older title so I'm not 
>sure if the photos are going to be that good.



That's Anne Buck, not Ruth. It is a very useful little book indeed. I 
bought it in a second hand shop, and find it very handy.

Suzi 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
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Sure, until I find it in my backed up pictures, you can get a hold of 
these books;

Payne, Blanche. *History of Costume - From the Ancient Egyptians to the 
Twentieth Century* (1965). Harper & Row, USA.

This book is rather odd.  It has no ISBN number.  The copyright on mine 
is 1965, but I cannot tell what edition it is.  It has a Library of 
Congress Cataloge card number 65-10419.  It is critical to get the 
"right" version as some versions do not have the patterns in the back.  
In my particular edition there is a  B&W photo of a surviving base (fig. 
288, pg 272) from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Arms & Armor 
Collection. It also has a to-scale pattern draft in the back of the 
book, with notes.

Another good base picture can be found in:
Davenport, Millia, The Book of Costume (1948), Crown Publishers, New York. 
My edition is a two volume series, second printing.  On page
159, figure 450 is a quilted gold brocade Waffenrock which supposedly 
belonged to Maximilian.  This one is photo'd (IMO) inside out so you can 
see the tapings on the inside.

The gowns which have this type of pleating were sometimes called falten 
(pleated) or wappen Roeke (oe = umlauted o).  Wappen can mean a few 
things depending on the time and place (weapon or coat of arms), 
sometimes it is spelled waffen.  So again in IMO they were probably 
copied from the style used in the military bases. 

Sg
* *

*
*



Nancy Kiel wrote:

>I looked thru the Met's online info, and couldn't find the base.  Can you offer guidance?
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: WickedFrau<mailto:wickedfrau@msn.com> 
>  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
>  Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:11 PM
>  Subject: Re: [h-cost] Organ pipe pleats
>
>
>  I'm not sure if you want organ pipe pleating or rolled pleats 
>  documentation, but if it is the former, the Metropolitan Museum of Art 
>  has a military base which is organ pipe pleated (Early 16th century).  
>  Blanche Paynes "History of Costume" has a discussion and a pattern for 
>  it.  I've spent some time looking for an earlier word for them, but have 
>  not come up with it in English or German.  The English word only goes 
>  back to to about 1890.  The current German word Röhrenfalten doesn't 
>  appear in Grimm's etemological dictionary.  I have queried both Leo 
>  online forums (back in March 05) and non-current German forum (just today):
>
>  If you find anything, I'd sure like to hear about it.
>
>  Sg
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>

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I would be very greatfull if  anybody could tell me a little more of these 
patterns.
Some years ago i photocopyed some patterns from a book at the library, and 
just wondered if these are from the book of Blanche Payne.
There is the cut of the wool mantua and a pattern of an 18th century dress 
made in silk faille, jacket and skirt. Also the cut of Frederik V's, wedding 
suit also a francaise dress and there are photos of the actual garments.
Just in case that i didnt need to buy the book, i am only interrested in the 
patterns, if i dont have them already.
Would be very gratefull if some could give me a clue

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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> I would be very greatfull if  anybody could tell me a
> little more of these  patterns.
> Some years ago i photocopyed some patterns from a book at
> the library, and  just wondered if these are from the book
> of Blanche Payne. There is the cut of the wool mantua and
> a pattern of an 18th century dress  made in silk faille,
> jacket and skirt. Also the cut of Frederik V's, wedding
> suit also a francaise dress and there are photos of the
> actual garments. Just in case that i didnt need to buy the
> book, i am only interrested in the  patterns, if i dont
> have them already. Would be very gratefull if some could
> give me a clue


Kia ora Bjarne,

That does indeed sound like the Patterns in Payne. There is
also a line drawing of the Danish Mantua (please forgive me,
I'm away from my computor and so can't spell the correct
name.)

The patterns at the bottom are numbered then lettered. So if
the pattern takes 3 pages it's labelled like 1a, 1b, 1c.

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com
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Sounds about right.  Mine has 43 different patterns...if that helps and 
indeed there is a pattern for the wedding suit of King Frederick of 
Denmark (1743) and a Gold Embroidered Wool Dress c1690.  Looks like it 
could be a mantua, but isn't called one directly.

Sg

>The patterns at the bottom are numbered then lettered. So if
>the pattern takes 3 pages it's labelled like 1a, 1b, 1c.
>
>michaela de bruce
>  
>

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Announcement for Costume Con 24!!!!

Online registration is now available via our website. We accept payment
via PayPal.

http://www.epicmovies.org/cgi-bin/register.cgi

CC24 Committee

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Dear  Michaela, dear Saragrace,
Thanks a lot for your informations, yes it must be from this book then.
Then i dont have to worry.
Many greetings, thanks

Bjarne 





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume by Ruth Buck ?
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:30:05 -0400
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I have her children's clothing book which I find a charming presentation,
especially the many photos of antique children's wear.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Costume by Ruth Buck ?


> At 16:50 22/10/2005, you wrote:
> >Victorian Costume - and Costume Accessories (ISBN:0903585170) Buck, Ruth.
> >
> >
> >Another book I'm considering purchasing... does anyone have this or
> >know if the contents are worth it? It's an older title so I'm not
> >sure if the photos are going to be that good.
>
>
>
> That's Anne Buck, not Ruth. It is a very useful little book indeed. I
> bought it in a second hand shop, and find it very handy.
>
> Suzi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Oct 23 15:29:26 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] My ribbed silk
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Oh i am so dissapointed. I tryed to embroider a small sampler on my new 
ribbed silk, yesterday evening. I will have to give it up. It is most 
difficult to stitch precisely because of the ribs, also transfer of pattern 
on to this is very difficult. The ribs are very hard to stitch trough.
Well it has to be a plain jacket then.
But i still could embroider a fine waistcoat in grey to go with this. Got 
some perfectly matching silk threads to embroider the waistcoat with from 
Mulberry silks in England. Imagine they have 900 colours to choose from!
Found 3 shades that matches the ribbed silk, for flowers.
It really was a shame...........

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Oct 23 15:35:14 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  Each 
participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
person by Dec. 20th.

I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)



Dawn
wet, windy and cold in KC



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My ribbed silk
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Bjarne, why not embroider the flowers on smooth silk and then applique them to the ribbed silk.  It is a perfectly acceptable historic way of working (particularly on velvet).

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


--- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:

From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:28:52 +0200
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] My ribbed silk

Oh i am so dissapointed. I tryed to embroider a small sampler on my new 
ribbed silk, yesterday evening. I will have to give it up. It is most 
difficult to stitch precisely because of the ribs, also transfer of pattern 
on to this is very difficult. The ribs are very hard to stitch trough.
Well it has to be a plain jacket then.
But i still could embroider a fine waistcoat in grey to go with this. Got 
some perfectly matching silk threads to embroider the waistcoat with from 
Mulberry silks in England. Imagine they have 900 colours to choose from!
Found 3 shades that matches the ribbed silk, for flowers.
It really was a shame...........

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I love it.  Since I retired, I miss the gift exchanges we used to do at work.  

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


--- Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:

From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:35:38 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] a holiday idea

Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  Each 
participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
person by Dec. 20th.

I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)



Dawn
wet, windy and cold in KC



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My ribbed silk
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I'm glad to hear that you're embroidering again. Congratulations! :-)

Arlys

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:28:52 +0200 "Bjarne og Leif Drews"
<drewscph@post12.tele.dk> writes:
> Oh i am so dissapointed. I tryed to embroider a small sampler on my 
> new 
> ribbed silk, yesterday evening. I will have to give it up. It is 
> most 
> difficult to stitch precisely because of the ribs, also transfer of 
> pattern 
> on to this is very difficult. The ribs are very hard to stitch 
> trough.
> Well it has to be a plain jacket then.
> But i still could embroider a fine waistcoat in grey to go with 
> this. Got 
> some perfectly matching silk threads to embroider the waistcoat with 
> from 
> Mulberry silks in England. Imagine they have 900 colours to choose 
> from!
> Found 3 shades that matches the ribbed silk, for flowers.
> It really was a shame...........
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Would people choose names of recipients from the list or get randomly 
drawn ones?

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Dawn wrote:

> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their 
> name, address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  
> Each participant receives the name of another participant and is then 
> charged with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it 
> to that person by Dec. 20th.
>
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)
>
>
>
> Dawn
> wet, windy and cold in KC
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name,
> address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  Each
> participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged
> with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that
> person by Dec. 20th.
>
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)

Sounds like alot of fun!  Count me in!

Would we get some other info about the person so that it can kinda be a
"get to know you" thing also?  I know the names of many people on the list
but don't know all that much about them.  It would be neat to know a
little more.....

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Certainly, a link to any website the person has would help; a two-word 
statement of costuming era or interest would also convey a lot briefly. 
Long descriptions, while helpful, could become a real pain for Dawn to 
maintain.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


>
>Would we get some other info about the person so that it can kinda be a
>"get to know you" thing also?  I know the names of many people on the list
>but don't know all that much about them.  It would be neat to know a
>little more.....
>
>Diana
>
>
>  
>
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> Would people choose names of recipients from the list or get randomly drawn ones? 
> 

It would be randomly drawn.


> Would we get some other info about the person so that it can kinda be a
> "get to know you" thing also?  

That's an option.


I'm open to suggestions. I'd like it to be fun for everyone who wants to 
participate.



Dawn


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I think this is a great idea.  Would a theme be helpful or too 
limiting?  I was thinking like "Christmas ornament" or "costume 
accessory".  Hmmm, "sewing notion" sounds good too.

Sg

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sharon Nevin <sharon.nevin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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My only comment is are you going to limit it to the U.S. (I'm just noting 
that most replies seem to be from the US so far, probably more an indicator 
of time zones)? Or are you going to be able to work out something to allow 
everyone to particpate? Maybe an indication from people if they are will to 
post overseas?

Sharon

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Lots of exchanges occur overseas in the Cloth Doll and Tamari 
world...I'd be willing to exchange overseas.

Sg

Sharon Nevin wrote:

> My only comment is are you going to limit it to the U.S. (I'm just 
> noting that most replies seem to be from the US so far, probably more 
> an indicator of time zones)? Or are you going to be able to work out 
> something to allow everyone to particpate? Maybe an indication from 
> people if they are will to post overseas?
>
> Sharon


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I would prefer that given the nature of the list, the gift be somehow 
related to costume--a book, fabric, trimming, a pattern, a sewing tool, 
or something to wear that was already made.

I am willing to participate and ship overseas if necessary.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

WickedFrau wrote:

> I think this is a great idea.  Would a theme be helpful or too 
> limiting?  I was thinking like "Christmas ornament" or "costume 
> accessory".  Hmmm, "sewing notion" sounds good too.
>
> Sg
>
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>
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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At 23:53 23/10/2005, you wrote:
>My only comment is are you going to limit it to the U.S. (I'm just 
>noting that most replies seem to be from the US so far, probably 
>more an indicator of time zones)? Or are you going to be able to 
>work out something to allow everyone to particpate? Maybe an 
>indication from people if they are will to post overseas?
>
>Sharon


I didn't answer because of the pedantic habits of British Customs 
Officers. Virtually everything sent from the U.S seems to incur a 
charge - which is why my friends carry gifts with them when they 
visit, rather than send things. (And yes, I know what the rules are 
governing charges, and that gifts don't count - depends on the value, 
and the Officer!)

Suzi


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I think this is a great idea and I'd love to participate. One other piece
of information I'd like to know is how long my giftee has been costuming.
I'd probably send something very different to someone who has just
started costuming than I would to someone who's been doing this since the
Dawn of Time (tm).


Karen
Seamstrix
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I like the idea, too, but it might be better off if it were left
"themeless."  Not all of us celebrate the holidays in the same way (or for
the same reasons), or even do the same kind of sewing.
--sue, back in the house from a nice walk, shushing through the maple leaves
(I'm walking to Rivendell <g>), and waiting for a nice meatloaf to come out
of the oven for dinner, and an evening's work, knitting a lace sock and
spinning some Shetland wool....

----- Original Message -----
From: "WickedFrau" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea


> I think this is a great idea.  Would a theme be helpful or too
> limiting?  I was thinking like "Christmas ornament" or "costume
> accessory".  Hmmm, "sewing notion" sounds good too.
>
> Sg
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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I'd be willing to send something overseas (being in the U.S.), but if
non-North Americans wanted to participate, we'd probably better take
shipping times into account, when setting up a mail-by date.
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Nevin" <sharon.nevin@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea


> My only comment is are you going to limit it to the U.S. (I'm just noting
> that most replies seem to be from the US so far, probably more an
indicator
> of time zones)? Or are you going to be able to work out something to allow
> everyone to particpate? Maybe an indication from people if they are will
to
> post overseas?
>
> Sharon


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Could we sneak-mail them from a 3rd party in Canada or something?
--sue, who didn't even get nailed by Customs when she mailed *all* those
books back from the UK three years ago....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea

<snipped>

> I didn't answer because of the pedantic habits of British Customs
> Officers. Virtually everything sent from the U.S seems to incur a
> charge - which is why my friends carry gifts with them when they
> visit, rather than send things. (And yes, I know what the rules are
> governing charges, and that gifts don't count - depends on the value,
> and the Officer!)


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I thought that if you filled out the label saying it's a "gift," and if, 
besides, it's not an expensive item, there would be no trouble with 
customs.  I buy stuff from overseas all the time, and I've only been 
charged for customs once over many years; even though the packages were 
labeled as merchandise. Of course, that's the US, not the UK.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Sue Clemenger wrote:

>Could we sneak-mail them from a 3rd party in Canada or something?
>--sue, who didn't even get nailed by Customs when she mailed *all* those
>books back from the UK three years ago....
>  
>
>  
>
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:23:54 +0000
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What a wonderful idea!  I'd love to participate.  Just let me know when the sign up officially starts...

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
> address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique). Each 
> participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
> with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
> person by Dec. 20th. 
> 
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :) 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn 
> wet, windy and cold in KC 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My ribbed silk
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:25:38 +0000
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Couldn't you embroider it on a sheer fusible fabric and applique it on to the jacket?  Or something like that?

It would be a shame if you couldn't have the embroidery effect you had your heart set on...

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Oh i am so dissapointed. I tryed to embroider a small sampler on my new 
> ribbed silk, yesterday evening. I will have to give it up. It is most 
> difficult to stitch precisely because of the ribs, also transfer of pattern 
> on to this is very difficult. The ribs are very hard to stitch trough. 
> Well it has to be a plain jacket then. 
> But i still could embroider a fine waistcoat in grey to go with this. Got 
> some perfectly matching silk threads to embroider the waistcoat with from 
> Mulberry silks in England. Imagine they have 900 colours to choose from! 
> Found 3 shades that matches the ribbed silk, for flowers. 
> It really was a shame........... 
> 
> Bjarne 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews 
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk 
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
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From: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
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Subject: [h-cost] First Regency
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A couple of months ago I had questions about constructing my first 
early-19th century gown. So many of you were very helpful--many thanks! 
The corset went well, as did the petticoat and shift. I wore the gown to 
my first English Country Dance ball.

Here's a pic:

http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/ballgown.jpg

Here's what I like/don't like/plan to do differently next time:
1) Fabric: I always tell myself not to get sucked in to fabrics that 
aren't authentic looking just because you liek them. I didn't heed 
myself this time: I absolutely fell in love with the fabric. It's an 
embroidered sheer. The colors/pattern would do better for an early 20thc 
entury dress, but I couldn't resist. sigh.
2) The underdress/lining is a pale green silk shantung. Shantung wasn't 
my first choice, but it was on super sale at fashionfabrics and I 
thought for a first attempt I'd better mind the budget.
3) The sleeves are a variation of a gown in the McCord museum. The 
petals are a bit ballet-costume maybe.
4) The pattern is basically from Nancy Bradfield's "Costume in Detail" 
gown from 1823, drawn on p. 119.
5) In the pic I drew in the neckline ribbon a bit too tightly in the 
front. Should be worn with the neckline wider.

But generally, I'm pretty happy with it! I also made a white day gown 
that's a much closer replica of an 1815 gown in Bradfield but no pics yet.

Comments that would be helpful for the next attempt would be welcome!

Next up: for the holidays, another ball gown, probably a taffeta, late 
teens-early 20's, solid color with piping details.

- Hope
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Hope Greenberg wrote:

> A couple of months ago I had questions about constructing my first 
> early-19th century gown. So many of you were very helpful--many thanks! 
> The corset went well, as did the petticoat and shift. I wore the gown to 
> my first English Country Dance ball.
> 
> Here's a pic:
> 
> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/ballgown.jpg
> 

Gorgeous! I love that embroidered fabric! What is the gold(?) stuff at 
the sleeves? It looks a little odd, maybe because of the flash.



Dawn



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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At 02:35 PM 10/23/2005, you wrote:
>Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? 
>I envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their 
>name, address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, 
>technique).  Each participant receives the name of another 
>participant and is then charged with buying or making a small ($10 
>-ish) gift and sending it to that person by Dec. 20th.
>
>I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)

I think this is a wonderful idea.  I'd be willing to mail 
anywhere.  My only concern is that we be careful to not go overboard.  GRIN.

Let us all know when the poll is over and the plans are settled.

Genie 


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Thanks! Yes, it must be the flash. I used green silk satin for the 
peatls on top of the sleeves and the band with triangles at the bottom 
of the sleeves, but the shine of the satin reflected in the flash.

- Hope

Dawn wrote:

> Gorgeous! I love that embroidered fabric! What is the gold(?) stuff at 
> the sleeves? It looks a little odd, maybe because of the flash.
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> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/ballgown.jpg
>
> Here's what I like/don't like/plan to do differently next time:
> 1) Fabric: I always tell myself not to get sucked in to fabrics that
> aren't authentic looking just because you liek them. I didn't heed
> myself this time: I absolutely fell in love with the fabric. It's an
> embroidered sheer. The colors/pattern would do better for an early 20thc
> entury dress, but I couldn't resist. sigh.

Aw, it's so pretty though:) And you know, if you have more of the shantung,
you could rework it to be 1910s if you ever wanted to:)


> But generally, I'm pretty happy with it! I also made a white day gown
> that's a much closer replica of an 1815 gown in Bradfield but no pics yet.

Can't wait to see them:) I'm hoping to use some woven striped fabrics for an
elbow length sleeved day dress from this period:)


> Next up: for the holidays, another ball gown, probably a taffeta, late
> teens-early 20's, solid color with piping details.

Excellent:)

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com



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Subject: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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Hi.
I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be problems?
If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Hi,

I really like the idea.
I live in the Netherlands.
Unfortionally it doesn't seems to matter anymore if it is a gift or not.
Aslong as the value of the package is not more then 22 Euro you get no 
charge.

It would be a challenge to make someting from a period I don't know much 
about.
But maby it is better to also say in wich period you are really not 
interested in.
I don't mind to get a gift from a period I am not, or not yet active in...
Maby it would even be inspiring!.
And you could give some ideas like: I would love to have a little purse 
tho use with my 1885 dresses...

Greetings,
      Deredere

Lavolta Press wrote:

I thought that if you filled out the label saying it's a "gift," and if, 
besides, it's not an expensive item, there would be no trouble with 
customs.  I buy stuff from overseas all the time, and I've only been 
charged for customs once over many years; even though the packages were 
labeled as merchandise. Of course, that's the US, not the UK.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Could we sneak-mail them from a 3rd party in Canada or something?
> --sue, who didn't even get nailed by Customs when she mailed *all* those
> books back from the UK three years ago....
>  
>
>  
>
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In a message dated 10/22/05 6:08:14 PM GMT Daylight Time, 
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

> At 16:50 22/10/2005, you wrote:
> >Victorian Costume - and Costume Accessories (ISBN:0903585170) Buck, Ruth.
> >
> >
> >Another book I'm considering purchasing... does anyone have this or 
> >know if the contents are worth it? It's an older title so I'm not 
> >sure if the photos are going to be that good.
> 
> 
> 
> That's Anne Buck, not Ruth. It is a very useful little book indeed. I 
> bought it in a second hand shop, and find it very handy.
> 
> Suzi 
> 

Was about to say exactly the same thing! - very useful book.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 06:41:35 2005
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Sounds like a really good idea to me, so I'd be in (although I agree with 
Suzi about British customs, it works the other way round too (ie whether they 
charge or not is completely at random!!)

But an idea of exactly what people's interests are would be essential.

Debbie.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 09:24:33 2005
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Sounds like a fun idea Dawn :), please count me in.

And I agree with some of the ideas being tossed around, keep it simple
and costume related.  How about an accessory or sewing notion/tool?

Catherine
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In a message dated 10/23/2005 11:24:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
hope.greenberg@uvm.edu writes:

Thanks!  Yes, it must be the flash. I used green silk satin 


It looks fine. Perhaps because you only see it on the sleeve it looks a bit  
"shocking." All you need is a bit of it elsewhere....like a belt of it at the  
high waist line or a bow at the CF neck.....or both The beautiful [and not  
too modern IMHO] fabric of the gown is light and lacy and the satin is solid 
and  plain. But just find a place to incorporate it more into the overall 
gown.[stay  away from the hem , is my advice....it's actually a good attention 
getter so  keep it up around the bodice] 
Very nice.
 
Cover the shoes in the satin too! [I know...I just said stay away from the  
hem. But if the satin is on the bodice more....the shoes will be fine I  think]
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 11:42:03 2005
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Hope:

That's a lovely dress. The sheer fabric on top looks a lot like some fabric
I used for part of an Easter dress for my daughter, but the flowers were
white on white. It was awful to sew! I hope yours was better.

Gail Finke

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 11:44:50 2005
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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Bjarne, It wouldn't make a bit of difference what you sent, we would all die to get something you made!

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender
--- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:46:33 +0200
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] a holliday idea
Hi.
I  would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be
problems?
If  i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be
much
helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
Bjarne
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk
http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
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>
> Aslong as the value of the package is not more then 22 Euro you get no 
> charge.

And the sender declares the value of the package, at least when shipping 
from the US.

>
> It would be a challenge to make someting from a period I don't know 
> much about.
>

But you don't necessarily have to make something. You could give someone 
a sewing tool or some trim or some dye or a pattern or a book, and 
that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http;//www.lavoltapress.com
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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Sounds fun.  Count me in!
 
Chris G.

Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:
Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique). Each 
participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
person by Dec. 20th.

I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)



Dawn
wet, windy and cold in KC



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 13:25:22 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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Sounds like fun.  I would like to join the gift exchange also.  I can basically do anything from medieval to Elizabethan - along with some Victorian.

Roscelin


> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
> address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  Each 
> participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
> with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
> person by Dec. 20th.
> 
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> wet, windy and cold in KC
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Hi Lalah,
Thanks a lot, very nicely said of you
What i ment was that i would like to make something period, but it would be 
super if it was within same range of time as the receiver.
I have never tryed this before, is it going to be like a lottery who we are 
going to send for?

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lalah" <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea


> Bjarne, It wouldn't make a bit of difference what you sent, we would all 
> die to get something you made!
>
> Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender
> --- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:46:33 +0200
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] a holliday idea
> Hi.
> I  would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be
> problems?
> If  i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be
> much
> helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
> Bjarne
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
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I think it would be fun, too. Count me in.

kate


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water
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Hi,
Just wondered, what will happen if a silk taffeta was dipped in cold water?
Would it get spoiled?
Thoaght about the water solluble solution for transfer of embroidering 
pattern to silk.
I could try a small sampler, but thoaght some of you already tryed?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
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Thanks everyone for the comments on the regency gown. I expected the 
sheer embroidered fabric to be a pain to sew but it was surprisingly 
easy--a new, tiny, sharp needle probably helped. I'll consider adding 
the satin to more than just the sleeves.

Next up: this one!
http://www.vintagemartini.com/clothing/victorian/pages/1431.html
They say c. 1810 but I'm betting it's later given the heaviness of the 
bodice decoration. It would probably require some heavy stylised 
skirt/hem piped decoration and a corded petticoat as well. What do you 
think?

And for fabric I'm thinking silk taffeta...

- Hope
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:37:21 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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>Hi.
>I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be problems?
>If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
>helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
>Bjarne

      It's funny that some people are suggesting gift categories 
without even getting a recipient!  If Bjarne got a name of someone 
who likes medieval, for example, he could go to a museum shop and get 
some post cards of medieval paintings with costume.  The person would 
likely not be from the same country, and probably not be familiar 
with those paintings.

      The idea of a $10 limit is that it's a token, and a cultural 
exchange.  Much as we admire each other's work, I would not expect 
someone to make something that would sell for $50, even if it only 
contained $5 worth of materials.  Time is valuable too, and 
especially close to the holidays when a lot of people are shopping 
for/making gifts for family and friends already.

      I like the idea of several "clues" that someone suggested 
earlier - besides time period(s), also a favorite color and animal, 
and maybe another thing or two?  Maybe one dislike, such as "nothing 
gray" or "allergic to wool".

      Say somebody lists 5th century, red and dragons.  The giver 
might find a stack of postcards, or a red dragon figurine, or a yard 
of white linen (which is not specific to any of the clues but a 5th 
century person could use it).  You may decide to shop, or you may 
have the perfect thing ripening in your fabric & trim stash already.

      I think once names are distributed with their clues, a gift idea 
will be obvious.  And if not, perhaps some people with different eras 
of interest could advise.

      It may be more complicated for the organizer, but if some people 
are concerned about customs or postage perhaps they could specify 
getting a name of someone in their own country.

      Great idea - take a chance!  Where do we sign up?

      -Carol
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I think this sounds like fun also.  Please count me in.

 

Diane

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>>Would people choose names of recipients from the list or get randomly 
>>drawn ones?
>
>It would be randomly drawn.
>
>>Would we get some other info about the person so that it can kinda be a
>>"get to know you" thing also?
>
>That's an option.
>
>I'm open to suggestions. I'd like it to be fun for everyone who wants to 
>participate.

How about this:

Everyone who wants to participate sends a short paragraph about themselves 
to Dawn, telling what periods they're into, what they're doing, and their 
mailing address, BY A DEADLINE.  When Dawn gets these e-mails, she mixes 
them up and e-mails a different one back to everyone who sent one.  (This 
could simply be done by sending person one's info to person two, person 
two's info to person three, etc., down the list.)  Then every participant 
has till mid-December to send their person their gift, based on the 
paragraph or generically related to costuming.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:07:32 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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>Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
>envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
>address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  Each 
>participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
>with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
>person by Dec. 20th.
>
>I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)

Sure.  I'm doing cloth-doll exchanges right now, and this could be fun too.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:26:46 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Medieval (was Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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>I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be problems?
>If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
>helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?

I rarely wear anything like the costumes you make.  But I'd love to get 
anything you did, whether it was my exact century or not.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:24:25 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: December gift giving (was Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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>I like the idea, too, but it might be better off if it were left
>"themeless."  Not all of us celebrate the holidays in the same way (or for
>the same reasons), or even do the same kind of sewing.

Certainly there are many religious holidays in December, and different ways 
of celebrating them.  Some people connect their favorite December religious 
holiday with the American commercial tradition of December gift giving, and 
others don't.  I happen to like giving/receiving gifts, and December is 
when all my other friends do it, so that's the month I pick.  But whatever 
the month, the gifts I give are usually handmade or of a historical nature, 
because I hand-make historical stuff anyway and because most of my 
recipient-friends are into historical costuming.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Oct 24 18:08:27 2005
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A Holiday idea
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I won't have time to make anything (and most of what little I do make is
not in the "token" range anyway) but I have a huge stash of fabrics, art
postcards, trims, patterns, etc. that I'd be delighted to delve into, if
that's acceptable. I think I could find *something* that would be
appropriate regardless whose name I get (I figure nearly anyone can use a
nice piece of linen or silk, right?). So, if it's OK for me to plan on
doing that, count me in.

If you get enough takers, I do think it might be smart to keep the
exchanges on the same continent -- e.g. match up the US people as a group,
and match up the Europeans as a group. Not sure about Aussies ;-)  Much as
it would be cool to get an overseas package, it would keep the time and
shipping costs manageable and fair to stay more local.

Will we be matched in pairs, or will I be giving to one person but
receiving from a different person?

Also, will the matchups be secret -- e.g. we each know who we're giving to
but not who we're receiving from? I think that would be the most fun -- to
learn who your gift-giver is only when you get the surprise package.

--Robin


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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If possible I think it would be a really good idea for participants (or 
as many as feasible) to put  up a little web page and just give the link 
to the coordinator.  They can then list their ten favorite colors and 
their five allergies without increasing the coordinator's work load. In 
addition to the info contained on their regular website--presumably if 
someone's regular site has dress diaries for their Viking costumes 
people can figure out they like that era without being told much about 
that on the gift list.   I'm talking a simple list here; but if, for 
example, someone morally objects to wearing fur, and also has no moral 
objection to animal fibers but is allergic to mohair only, just that 
gets too complicated for the "one dislike" slot on a list. 

And then they could just give the link to the coordinator.

While it's kind of tacky for people to put so many requests and 
restrictions on gift lists that it's practically a mail order, most of 
us know by heart our various friends' and relations' allergies, favorite 
colors, etc., so the holiday season is just a matter of finding out what 
they want or need this year.  Which is not true of a stranger.

On the other hand, of course gift situations always involve the risk of 
getting or giving something unwanted and knowing it's the thought that 
counts.

If people are worried about monetary value or gift-making time, we could 
just make it a "stash and duplicate tool/book/etc." gift exchange.  
Giving, of course, something in new condition that we really believe the 
recipient would want. Just the giver faced up to the fact that they 
themselves shouldn't wear that color fabric; or they somehow acquired 
two copies of a perfectly good book or DVD and one is still new; or they 
have several yards of lovely trim that it looks like they'll never use 
in their lifetime; that kind of thing. 

So people could give something perfectly nice without spending anything 
but postage.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Carol Kocian wrote:

>> Hi.
>> I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be problems?
>> If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
>> helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
>> Bjarne
>
>
>      It's funny that some people are suggesting gift categories 
> without even getting a recipient!  If Bjarne got a name of someone who 
> likes medieval, for example, he could go to a museum shop and get some 
> post cards of medieval paintings with costume.  The person would 
> likely not be from the same country, and probably not be familiar with 
> those paintings.
>
>      The idea of a $10 limit is that it's a token, and a cultural 
> exchange.  Much as we admire each other's work, I would not expect 
> someone to make something that would sell for $50, even if it only 
> contained $5 worth of materials.  Time is valuable too, and especially 
> close to the holidays when a lot of people are shopping for/making 
> gifts for family and friends already.
>
>      I like the idea of several "clues" that someone suggested earlier 
> - besides time period(s), also a favorite color and animal, and maybe 
> another thing or two?  Maybe one dislike, such as "nothing gray" or 
> "allergic to wool".
>
>      Say somebody lists 5th century, red and dragons.  The giver might 
> find a stack of postcards, or a red dragon figurine, or a yard of 
> white linen (which is not specific to any of the clues but a 5th 
> century person could use it).  You may decide to shop, or you may have 
> the perfect thing ripening in your fabric & trim stash already.
>
>      I think once names are distributed with their clues, a gift idea 
> will be obvious.  And if not, perhaps some people with different eras 
> of interest could advise.
>
>      It may be more complicated for the organizer, but if some people 
> are concerned about customs or postage perhaps they could specify 
> getting a name of someone in their own country.
>
>      Great idea - take a chance!  Where do we sign up?
>
>      -Carol
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: a holiday idea
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That does sound like a wonderful idea. I have done this in years past on another list I belong to and even when it is an inexpensive item, shipping internationally can easily surpass the expense limit if it is not a small and light weight item. Shipping overseas from the U.S. should also happen within the next few weeks if anyone wants to guarantee a package arriving in time for the holidays without having to pay a higher postage rate.
 
It does sound like great fun, but I'll have to nod out this year.
 
Annette M
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lalah 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea

Bjarne, It wouldn't make a bit of difference what you sent, we would all die to get something you made!

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender
--- "Bjarne og Leif Drews" wrote:
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" 
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:46:33 +0200
To: 
Subject: [h-cost] a holliday idea
Hi.
I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be
problems?
If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be
much
helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
Bjarne
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk
http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:48 -0700
From: Lavolta Press 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Holiday gift
To: Historical Costume 
Message-ID: <435D0E54.9020107@lavoltapress.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


>
> Aslong as the value of the package is not more then 22 Euro you get no 
> charge.

And the sender declares the value of the package, at least when shipping 
from the US.

>
> It would be a challenge to make someting from a period I don't know 
> much about.
>

But you don't necessarily have to make something. You could give someone 
a sewing tool or some trim or some dye or a pattern or a book, and 
that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http;//www.lavoltapress.com


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea

Sounds fun. Count me in!

Chris G.

Dawn wrote:
Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique). Each 
participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
person by Dec. 20th.

I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)



Dawn
wet, windy and cold in KC

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:24:40 +0000
From: roscelinlimoges@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea

Sounds like fun. I would like to join the gift exchange also. I can basically do anything from medieval to Elizabethan - along with some Victorian.

Roscelin


> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their name, 
> address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique). Each 
> participant receives the name of another participant and is then charged 
> with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it to that 
> person by Dec. 20th.
> 
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> wet, windy and cold in KC
> 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:37:21 -0500
From: Carol Kocian 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea


>Hi.
>I would like to participate in this also, but wouldnt there be problems?
>If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
>helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?
>Bjarne

It's funny that some people are suggesting gift categories 
without even getting a recipient! If Bjarne got a name of someone 
who likes medieval, for example, he could go to a museum shop and get 
some post cards of medieval paintings with costume. The person would 
likely not be from the same country, and probably not be familiar 
with those paintings.

The idea of a $10 limit is that it's a token, and a cultural 
exchange. Much as we admire each other's work, I would not expect 
someone to make something that would sell for $50, even if it only 
contained $5 worth of materials. Time is valuable too, and 
especially close to the holidays when a lot of people are shopping 
for/making gifts for family and friends already.

I like the idea of several "clues" that someone suggested 
earlier - besides time period(s), also a favorite color and animal, 
and maybe another thing or two? Maybe one dislike, such as "nothing 
gray" or "allergic to wool".

Say somebody lists 5th century, red and dragons. The giver 
might find a stack of postcards, or a red dragon figurine, or a yard 
of white linen (which is not specific to any of the clues but a 5th 
century person could use it). You may decide to shop, or you may 
have the perfect thing ripening in your fabric & trim stash already.

I think once names are distributed with their clues, a gift idea 
will be obvious. And if not, perhaps some people with different eras 
of interest could advise.

It may be more complicated for the organizer, but if some people 
are concerned about customs or postage perhaps they could specify 
getting a name of someone in their own country.

Great idea - take a chance! Where do we sign up?

-Carol


		
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From: Genie Barrett <maggie.gene@justinanimator.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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At 10:38 AM 10/24/2005, you wrote:
>Bjarne, It wouldn't make a bit of difference what you sent, we would 
>all die to get something you made!

Laugh Out Loud. That's for sure.

Genie 


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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Lavolta Press wrote:

> If people are worried about monetary value or gift-making time, we
> could just make it a "stash and duplicate tool/book/etc." gift
> exchange.  Giving, of course, something in new condition that we
> really believe the recipient would want. Just the giver faced up to
> the fact that they themselves shouldn't wear that color fabric; or
> they somehow acquired two copies of a perfectly good book or DVD and
> one is still new; or they have several yards of lovely trim that it
> looks like they'll never use in their lifetime; that kind of thing. So
> people could give something perfectly nice without spending anything
> but postage.

I would like this very much. I have lots of great stuff I will never use,
but someone else might love.

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water
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> Just wondered, what will happen if a silk taffeta was dipped in cold 
> water?
> Would it get spoiled?

Spoiled no. But you'd probably lose some of the shine and crispness. It 
works well on any kind of silk I've tried (though I've never tied taffeta). 
Fix your dye with vinegar though, or use silk specific dye. You might also 
want to try with a little more than a "small" sample, something big enough 
to judge changes in the way fabric will drape, because that can change after 
the fabric got wet. 
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Subject: [h-cost] Costume Books on eBay 
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I'm delurking to mention that I just listed several hard to find costume books on eBay that I just got at an estate sale (I had to buy them all to get the ones I wanted, the ones on eBay are outside of my area of interest). The easiest thing to do is a seller search for MAYFLOWER, they are all listed with "Buy it Now" prices, they are mostly related to 15th and 16th century costuming, but there is one about Regency costume and one about English chlidren's costume from 1300-1900.....
 
Perry
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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Dawn sign me up as well, and how much would I have to slip you to make 
sure that Bjarne is my gift exchange?

Stephen - Only half Joking

Dawn wrote:

> Is there any interest among listmembers for a holiday gift exchange? I 
> envision it working something like this: folks sign up with their 
> name, address, and a 'favorite' (color, period, animal, technique).  
> Each participant receives the name of another participant and is then 
> charged with buying or making a small ($10 -ish) gift and sending it 
> to that person by Dec. 20th.
>
> I'm willing to coordinate, of course. :)
>
>
>
> Dawn
> wet, windy and cold in KC
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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Oh, yeah.  Put me down, too.

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Add me to the list!

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006


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I'm coming late to this topic. I have several pairs of pillowcases made by
my mother's aunt, probably late 1920s-40s. Three sets have designs based on
rick-rack, all are crocheted. Only one set has white rick-rack; the other
two are pink and blue respectively. Last year at a vintage clothing sale, I
saw an early 1950s pattern for a short-sleeved blouse made entirely of
rick-rack in straight lines - they went all around the body and were
connected only at the tips of the rick to the rack above and below it. I
bought another blouse pattern - late 1930s-early 40s - where the rick-rack
was used like Battenberg lace, in swirls with the loopy stitches in between.
The pattern is way too small for me but it was such a lovely piece that I
thought at the time, yeah, sure, I'll rework that pattern and make it up
some day.
LynnD

 On 10/21/05, Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> wrote:
>
> The Victorians liked "fancy braids" to make tape laces, and lacy
> crocheted, knitted, and tatted constructions. That's the sort of thing
> rickrack and its variants (in terms of the depth and pointiness of the
> "waves") seem to have been made for originally.
>
> I have seen a few original garments dating from circa 1880 to circa 1910
> with areas of rackrack lace (yokes, cuffs, whole bodices, wide hem
> trims) that did not include any fancy stitches, but which merely had
> rickrack sewn in patterns, held with ordinary (hand) whipstitches at the
> points. I have an 1880s dress with rickrack wide cuffs and I think some
> other sections somewhere in my collection, but I can't find it. The
> rickrack was coiled into small circular medallions, and then the
> medallions were sewn together. I've also seen it sewn together in
> straight designs. It's really quite effective. People who expect
> rickrack to be just a few rows machine sewed on a child's dress don't
> recognize the rickrack in rickrack work for what it is.
>
> There are obvious geometric possibilities for small square medallions,
> straight horizontal or vertical rows, square medallions, and so on. I'd
> like to find some original Victorian and Edwardian patterns though. I
> mail ordered a 1910s rickrack pattern booklet from a used bookseller
> yesterday but I don't know what's in it yet.
>
> BTW, all the examples I've seen so far were white and were on "lingerie"
> type dresses or wrappers.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
> Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>
> >
> >> I don't remember it in either my facsimile of Mrs. Beeton, or Therese
> >> de Dillmont.
> >
> >
> > Wave braid crocheted together is really big in the 1880s, after Mrs.
> > Beeton's and M. Dillmont's time. Start looking for it then.
> >
> >
> > CarolynKayta Barrows
> > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
> > www.FunStuft.com <http://www.FunStuft.com>
> >
> > //// \\\
> > ////-@@\\\
> > (((( 7 )))
> > ((( <> ))))
> > ) ((((((
> > /----\ /---\))
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:45:07 -0700
From: Lynn Downward <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I'd love to be part of this exchange!
LynnD

 On 10/24/05, Carolann Schmitt <cschmitt@genteelarts.com> wrote:
>
> Add me to the list!
>
> Carolann Schmitt
> cschmitt@genteelarts.com
> www.genteelarts.com <http://www.genteelarts.com>
> Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea - questions answered
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Right, well it looks like we have sufficient interest. :)

I'll try to answer the questions folks have asked:


> My only comment is are you going to limit it to the U.S.

Anyone on the H-Cost list is invited. US and non-US members, men and 
women, and especially the new members and lurkers.

If folks feel that shipping to a foreign country is troublesome, they 
have the option to ask for a US recipient, or of just not participating.

 >I would prefer that given the nature of the list, the gift be somehow 
 >related to costume--a book, fabric, trimming, a pattern, a sewing tool

That is the general idea of the exhange -- sewing, costume, or 
historical clothing related gifts to each other. And even then that's a 
pretty broad range of things.

It could be something you make, or something you buy. There are any 
number of sewing related gift items this time of year.


 >Virtually everything sent from the U.S seems to incur a charge

I have found, from my experience, that smaller and lighter packets are 
less likely to get noticed by Customs. Under a certain weight and it 
doesn't even require a customs form. YMMV.

If folks overseas know their duty free limit, they should plan to put 
that it their description of themselves.


 > Not all of us celebrate the holidays in the same way (or for
the same reasons)

I've purposely left the "holiday" ambiguous. :)


 >If i get someone who has interrest in medieval, i would not be much 
helpfull, have never done any medieval and what then?

You should have enough information about the person to be able to find 
something suitable for one of their interests. Use your best judgement.


 >I won't have time to make anything ... but I have a huge stash of 
fabrics, art postcards, trims, patterns, etc. that I'd be delighted to 
delve into,


Purchased gifts would be fine. I didn't figure everyone would have the 
time or inclination to make something by hand, and probably many people 
would love to have trims or patterns related to their interests.


 > is it going to be like a lottery who we are going to send for?

Yes, you will randomly get matched up with one person to send a gift to. 
And a different person will get your name to send a gift to you. So you 
will get to know two new H-Costumers.


 >how much would I have to slip you to make sure that Bjarne is my gift 
exchange?

Ha! I was going to keep him for myself! :)


Additional info; I will send out a formal invitation very soon. Folks 
will have about a week to sign up. After that I will take it off the 
H-cost list. I will email reminders to folks as the Dec 20 deadline 
approaches. People are on their own and are responsible for getting 
their gifts mailed on time. We have almost two months, and that should 
be enough for everyone. Please be sure when you sign up that you can 
follow through with your committment.



Dawn

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From: Edith Reardon <edithreardon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume Books on eBay 
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Looked couldn't find them are they only for sale in the USA??
 
Brin Kendall

morses3@aol.com wrote:
I'm delurking to mention that I just listed several hard to find costume books on eBay that I just got at an estate sale (I had to buy them all to get the ones I wanted, the ones on eBay are outside of my area of interest). The easiest thing to do is a seller search for MAYFLOWER, they are all listed with "Buy it Now" prices, they are mostly related to 15th and 16th century costuming, but there is one about Regency costume and one about English chlidren's costume from 1300-1900.....

Perry
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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I have found, from my experience, that smaller and lighter packets are
less likely to get noticed by Customs. Under a certain weight and it
doesn't even require a customs form. YMMV.

Some time back i had exchanged goods with people from an embroidery list. I 
sended purses, and in exchange i received silk embroidery threads. Went very 
well, without the custom. I had parcels from USA, New Zealand and Germany. 
They also had no problems with customs.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth <freyalynn@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: holiday idea
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Although I tend to lurk very quietly here, I'd love to join the holiday exchange.
 
I'm in the UK, and have had very few problems sending and receiving stuff from the US via customs.  Given that the value is will be clearly written on any customs slip as $10 or less, and a gift, we shouldn't be liable for anything.  Of course, it's worth more to us and those that know what our time is worth, but we don't have to tell customs this!
 
So count me in.
 
Just a thought - should we say our strengths as well, so the organiser knows what we're likely to want to do.  Tablet weaving, for example.
 
Freyalyn, in Yorkshire, England.

		
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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:46:41 +0000
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Hello, I've done a few gowns out of 'regular' (as opposed to moire) taffeta for my eldest daughter, but not silk taffeta.  I've discovered that with taffeta  if I wash the whole thing in water (not in the washer or the whole thing is a wrinkled mess), it doesn't lose it's crispness or sheen in my eyes.  But if you put just a bit of water on it (like in spot cleaning) the spot is visibly obvious and (I think) I've not figured out a way to get that spot out, once it's there.  Even after washing it.  

My experiences with silk specifically, is with China silk, 'silk' velvet , raw silk and duponi.  China Silk and Silk velvet washes up beautifully if carefully hand washed.   Washing raw silk make the fabric 'stiffer'. Duponi loses it's sheen, becomes fairly stiff and loses it's resiliency for wear and tear.  

Just my <.02> worth...

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hi, 
> Just wondered, what will happen if a silk taffeta was dipped in cold water? 
> Would it get spoiled? 
> Thoaght about the water solluble solution for transfer of embroidering 
> pattern to silk. 
> I could try a small sampler, but thoaght some of you already tryed? 
> 
> Bjarne 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews 
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk 
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> h-costume mailing list 
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct 25 06:12:24 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: holiday idea
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Well, I think the response is overwhelming.  The list would like to  give the 
gift exchange a try.  May I respectfully suggest that we now let  the 
organizer decide how she is going to do it, then await her instructions as  to how we 
give her our information?
 
Ann Wass
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:59:20 -0500
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(I'm in, too.)

It might be handy if, on the list of info we give about ourselves, we 
included our pattern size, because surely patterns are one of those things 
that most people have sitting around unused in their sewing stash.  Or, 
since there are so many pattern sizing systems, especially when you're 
dealing with an international list, include some basic measurements.

And along those lines, if you're male but go by a name that requires some 
knowledge of your period or culture if one wants to determine the gender, 
let us know!  I don't remember running into that on this list, but on a few 
other lists I've assumed that someone whose email came from his Welsh 
persona name was female when he definitely wasn't. Embarrassing.

-E House

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Subject: [h-cost] my new suit
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Hi,
I have uploaded a picture of the silks i want to use on the new suit. First 
to the right is the ribbed silk, second is a silk taffeta wich is very close 
to the colour of the ribbed silk, wich i will make a border of each side of 
the jacket to embroider on. It is very difficult to embroider on the ribbed 
silk, so that is why i use the taffeta. Finally to the right is the dark 
grey silk taffeta for the waistcoat.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/mixedsilksuit..htm
Bjarme





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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 >how much would I have to slip you to make sure that Bjarne is my gift

exchange?
===========================
So how about if we *all* have Bjarne's name?  

And of course then he gets all of ours :)?

Catherine
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From: ruthanneb@mindspring.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit
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These colors are wonderful together, Bjarne--and using the taffeta is very resourceful. Can't wait to see the finished suit!
How is your wrist healing, by the way?

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

-----Original Message-----
From: Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Sent: Oct 25, 2005 9:02 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] my new suit

Hi,
I have uploaded a picture of the silks i want to use on the new suit. First 
to the right is the ribbed silk, second is a silk taffeta wich is very close 
to the colour of the ribbed silk, wich i will make a border of each side of 
the jacket to embroider on. It is very difficult to embroider on the ribbed 
silk, so that is why i use the taffeta. Finally to the right is the dark 
grey silk taffeta for the waistcoat.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/mixedsilksuit..htm
Bjarme





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct 25 10:19:22 2005
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 I just got 19th Century Fashion in Detail by Lucy Johnston from
Amazon.com and it is worth every penny. For those of us on the U.S. side
of the pond, it is a companion volume to Fashion in Detail(17th and 18th
centuries)and the photographed fashions(from the V&A collections)are
every bit as drool worthy. The format is the same as the previous book
and the World Fashion in Detail(I don't own both have seen this one):
The left-hand page has a complete description and line drawing of an
entire garmet or garmets. The right hand side of the page has a stunning
full-color view of a detail and sometimes the entire garment or
garments. The book covers men's and women's fashions, including shoes.
It is divided into the usual sections like the other books that are a
little offbeat as it is subjects, not strictly chronological.  On the
cover is a stunning magenta bustle dress of the mid 1870's that lovers
of the bustle era will itch to copy. The dress is actually three pieces
with two separate bodices which was pretty common among surviving
dresses of the last half of the 19th c, and has both a back view of one
bodice and a side view of the entire ensemble. One bodice is for day and
the other a dinner(not short sleeved formal ball)bodice.

Get this as a Christmas gift for self or a friend who loves beautiful
surviving fashions.

Cindy Abel

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water
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In a message dated 10/25/2005 5:47:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net writes:

Duponi  loses it's sheen, becomes fairly stiff and loses it's resiliency for 
wear and  tear.  



I dyed down a dark with white stripes [to tone down the  contrast] dupioni in 
HOT water in the machine and it looked exactly  the same when it came 
out....but now had a soft hand. Mind you it wasn't  particularly shiny to start with.
 
Made an early 1840s gown out of it.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit
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Lov-er-ly!
 
I was just thinking....it's important, I think, to make sure somehow that  
the appliqued embroidery looks, without a doubt, that it was MEANT to be  
appliqued.
 
Y'know what I mean?
 
I'm not sure how this can be achieved, but somehow the applique process  must 
be part of the embroidery process too. Maybe some element, leaves or fruit  
or something, can be the quilted taffeta. Or appliqued lace is also  
incorporated. [I don't mean to design things for you, I'm just thinking out  loud]
 
In "Fashion in Detail" somewhere is some embroidery on a waistcoat  that is 
made up of multiple techniques....an appliqued lace with embroidery over  it 
and sequins or something like that.
 
Am I making sense? I just don't want someone to look at your suit and think  
"Oh he took the embroidery off a bed hanging and applied it to the coat." It  
must look like it was meant to be appliqued from the start.
 
Then of course you have to do it to the waistcoat.  :-P
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Add me to the list too.  I love to give gifts and I love to receive gifts, greedy thing that I am.  

 

And even a ribbon from ANY period would be a treat!

 

Mia in Charlotte NC


		
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From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water
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And just one other note - don't wad the fabric up.  Every crease will be permanent.  Good luck!

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


--- "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:33:43 -0400
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] dipping silk in cold water

> Just wondered, what will happen if a silk taffeta was dipped in cold 
> water?
> Would it get spoiled?

Spoiled no. But you'd probably lose some of the shine and crispness. It 
works well on any kind of silk I've tried (though I've never tied taffeta). 
Fix your dye with vinegar though, or use silk specific dye. You might also 
want to try with a little more than a "small" sample, something big enough 
to judge changes in the way fabric will drape, because that can change after 
the fabric got wet. 
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit
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Oooh, Bjarne, they look just yummy! What kind of colors will you be using
for the embroidery?
--Sue, thinking Bjarne must be the best dressed guy in Denmark....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:02 AM
Subject: [h-cost] my new suit


> Hi,
> I have uploaded a picture of the silks i want to use on the new suit.
First
> to the right is the ribbed silk, second is a silk taffeta wich is very
close
> to the colour of the ribbed silk, wich i will make a border of each side
of
> the jacket to embroider on. It is very difficult to embroider on the
ribbed
> silk, so that is why i use the taffeta. Finally to the right is the dark
> grey silk taffeta for the waistcoat.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/mixedsilksuit..htm


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Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holiday idea
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I would like to be part too.
 
Tania

"Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com> wrote:

Oh, yeah. Put me down, too.

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Welcome to the 2005 H-COST Holiday Gift Exchange.

Please DO NOT reply to the List. Please address all replies to me at 
Dawn@reddawn.net.

Please leave the H-COST header intact in your reply so your message does 
not end up in the spam-trap.


_What we're doing. _

We will be exchanging small costume and sewing related gifts with each 
other. To participate you must sign up (below). There are rules, so that 
everybody knows what is expected of them, but I want this to be fun so I 
am keeping the rules simple. If you want to participate, please read 
this entire message.

The Sign-up Deadline is November 1st. The Mailing Deadline is Dec.19th.


_The Rules._

1. You are responsible for completing your end of the exchange on time. 
Please be sure you can follow through on your committment.

2. Gifts should be sewing or costume related. Gifts may be hand-made for 
the recipient, or purchased, or may be items you already have. Gifts 
should be clean and in good condition and suitable for giving. You will 
be given guidelines to help you choose a gift for your recipient.

3. Gifts should be in the $10-$15 US range, and no more than that. (8-12 
euros). It's ok if you can get something on sale or make something from 
supplies you already have. Second-hand books in good condition are ok. 
We all know how many desireable but out-of-print titles are out there.

4. Plan to mail your gift in early to mid December. Remember that it 
will cost you postage on top of what you spent on the gift. Small and 
lightweight objects are generally cheaper to mail. If you are mailing 
overseas you may have to fill out a Customs Declaration.

5. After the sign-up period I will create a mailing list for all 
participants so that I can stay in touch with you and send reminders. 
Email should be addressed to me, or to this list and not to H-Cost.

6. Each person who joins will be randomly matched up with one person 
they will send a gift to. Additionally, someone else will send a gift to 
you. For example, Ann will send to Bob. Bob will send to Clara. Clara 
will send to Ann. This way each person will meet two H-Costumers by 
giving and receiving. You will know who you are sending to, but not who 
is sending to you.


_Join Now!_

1. To join you must send me your name and mailing address. Please reply 
to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list. The sign-up period 
ends November 1st.

2. Introduce yourself. Tell me a little bit about you, your family, your 
pets, what you do -- as much as you feel comfortable sharing. It's been 
suggested that you include your dress size.

3. Tell me some of your Favorite Things. What do you sew? What time 
period or place interests you? Is there a favorite technique or process 
that you enjoy? (weaving, dyeing, embroidery, etc.) Do you have a 
favorite color or theme?

4. If you live outside the US and know your Duty limit, please include 
it. If you are within the US and do not wish to mail to another country, 
please let me know.




I think that about covers it. If you have questions or concerns, please 
reply to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list.



Dawn


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit
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Hi,
Yes i know exactly what you have in mind, have ben thinking about adding a 
fine mesh tulle into the taffeta and make an embroidered border of a ribbon 
between the ribbed and the taffeta. I am making embroidery drafts in the 
evenings. Also got a box full of hand twisted Mulberry silk threads, wich i 
want to use for the embroidery, together sith flosses from Eterna and 
Scallamandre. And and and, also tiny tiny silver spangels from Hedgehog.
But i force myself to work on the chenille dress, and i have made quite a 
progress, finished all the embroidery and are sewing on the bullion 
trimmings. I wont start the embroidery of this jacket untill i have 
finnished thisdress. Ill post some pictures of the yellow dress soon.

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit


> Lov-er-ly!
>
> I was just thinking....it's important, I think, to make sure somehow that
> the appliqued embroidery looks, without a doubt, that it was MEANT to be
> appliqued.
>
> Y'know what I mean?
>
> I'm not sure how this can be achieved, but somehow the applique process 
> must
> be part of the embroidery process too. Maybe some element, leaves or fruit
> or something, can be the quilted taffeta. Or appliqued lace is also
> incorporated. [I don't mean to design things for you, I'm just thinking 
> out  loud]
>
> In "Fashion in Detail" somewhere is some embroidery on a waistcoat  that 
> is
> made up of multiple techniques....an appliqued lace with embroidery over 
> it
> and sequins or something like that.
>
> Am I making sense? I just don't want someone to look at your suit and 
> think
> "Oh he took the embroidery off a bed hanging and applied it to the coat." 
> It
> must look like it was meant to be appliqued from the start.
>
> Then of course you have to do it to the waistcoat.  :-P
> _______________________________________________
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> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct 25 14:48:53 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:48:18 +0200
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Hi Sue,
I am forceing myself to work on the stumpwork dress, it must be made first.
But i have gotten a box full of wonderfull collours from Mulberry silk and 
ill post pictures soon.
My every day clothes are not worth writing about, i dont give a damn about 
how i look, as long as it is clean clothes, i am happy.

Bjarne

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit


> Oooh, Bjarne, they look just yummy! What kind of colors will you be using
> for the embroidery?
> --Sue, thinking Bjarne must be the best dressed guy in Denmark....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:02 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] my new suit
>
>
>> Hi,
>> I have uploaded a picture of the silks i want to use on the new suit.
> First
>> to the right is the ribbed silk, second is a silk taffeta wich is very
> close
>> to the colour of the ribbed silk, wich i will make a border of each side
> of
>> the jacket to embroider on. It is very difficult to embroider on the
> ribbed
>> silk, so that is why i use the taffeta. Finally to the right is the dark
>> grey silk taffeta for the waistcoat.
>> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/mixedsilksuit..htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Oct 25 16:37:49 2005
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Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:24:37 -0700
From: Red Bear <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Male or Female Name Was :a holliday idea
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Trust me it does not have to be any place but the good old USA for there 
to be problems.  I am Stephen on most list, Red Bear on others.  And I 
still get people who think I must be a Stephenie, just because I am into 
clothes.  They have been rather surprised to find out that I am 6' 2" 
tall with a 53"  chest, and a full red beard.

 So for the record I am male, so is Bjarne, and what Teddy is, if he 
were still on the list is up for grabs.  GRIN

Stephen
E House wrote:

> (I'm in, too.)
>
> And along those lines, if you're male but go by a name that requires 
> some knowledge of your period or culture if one wants to determine the 
> gender, let us know!  I don't remember running into that on this list, 
> but on a few other lists I've assumed that someone whose email came 
> from his Welsh persona name was female when he definitely wasn't. 
> Embarrassing.
>
> -E House
>
> _______________________________________________
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Red Bear" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
> Trust me it does not have to be any place but the good old USA for there 
> to be problems.  I am Stephen on most list, Red Bear on others.  And I 
> still get people who think I must be a Stephenie, just because I am into 
> clothes.  They have been rather surprised to find out that I am 6' 2" tall 
> with a 53"  chest, and a full red beard.

Good point!  With Stephen I'd never have thought Stephenie, but with Red 
Bear I'd have played the odds and guessed wrong.  I always go by my first 
initial, so most people guess I'm male (I'm not) until I've posted a few 
times.

(Nice to have you on the list, by the way.  There's a whole lot more garb 
guys out there than are represented on this list; wish we had more.)

-E(lena) House 

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: my new suit
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Ohh! Those colors look absolutely gorgeous together!
 
Annette M


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:02:17 +0200
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" 
Subject: [h-cost] my new suit

Hi,
I have uploaded a picture of the silks i want to use on the new suit. First 
to the right is the ribbed silk, second is a silk taffeta wich is very close 
to the colour of the ribbed silk, wich i will make a border of each side of 
the jacket to embroider on. It is very difficult to embroider on the ribbed 
silk, so that is why i use the taffeta. Finally to the right is the dark 
grey silk taffeta for the waistcoat.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/mixedsilksuit..htm
Bjarme

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:43:28 EDT
From: AlbertCat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit

Lov-er-ly!

I was just thinking....it's important, I think, to make sure somehow that 
the appliqued embroidery looks, without a doubt, that it was MEANT to be 
appliqued.

Y'know what I mean?

I'm not sure how this can be achieved, but somehow the applique process must 
be part of the embroidery process too. Maybe some element, leaves or fruit 
or something, can be the quilted taffeta. Or appliqued lace is also 
incorporated. [I don't mean to design things for you, I'm just thinking out loud]

In "Fashion in Detail" somewhere is some embroidery on a waistcoat that is 
made up of multiple techniques....an appliqued lace with embroidery over it 
and sequins or something like that.

Am I making sense? I just don't want someone to look at your suit and think 
"Oh he took the embroidery off a bed hanging and applied it to the coat." It 
must look like it was meant to be appliqued from the start.

Then of course you have to do it to the waistcoat. :-P


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:43:21 -0600
From: "Sue Clemenger" 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] my new suit

Oooh, Bjarne, they look just yummy! What kind of colors will you be using
for the embroidery?
--Sue, thinking Bjarne must be the best dressed guy in Denmark....

		
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Subject: [h-cost] leg o' mutton sleeves
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Please forgive me if this comes through twice!
 
Since there was a recent discussion on the list about leg o' mutton sleeves, I thought you might be interested in seeing this lovely example currently on eBay:
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:FSEL:US:1&Item=8344957062
 
I was suprised to see in the back view that the puff is joined to a second, flat piece, rather than being puffed all the way around (showing my ignorance, I'm sure).  I think of that more as men's tailoring, so it was interesting to me to see it applied here.  
 
KP
 
 

		
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From: Bonnie Booker <aspasia1@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume Books on eBay
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On 10/24/05, morses3@aol.com <morses3@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I'm delurking to mention that I just listed several hard to find costume
> books on eBay that I just got at an estate sale (I had to buy them all to
> get the ones I wanted, the ones on eBay are outside of my area of interest).
> The easiest thing to do is a seller search for MAYFLOWER, they are all
> listed with "Buy it Now" prices, they are mostly related to 15th and 16th
> century costuming, but there is one about Regency costume and one about
> English chlidren's costume from 1300-1900.....
>
> Perry
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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--
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 26 05:43:36 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] update of chenille dress
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Hi,
Uploaded 3 more photos of the stumpwork dress.
Desided to discharge the ruffled edge that i made in the drawing, on top of 
the border of the underskirt. Two much.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/chenillestumpwork.htm
Bjarne who now adds the small chenille flowers to the edge of the 
underskirt.







Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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In a message dated 10/26/2005 5:43:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

Uploaded  3 more photos of the stumpwork dress.



All I can say is, GASSSPPPP!!!!!
 
Ann Wass
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Subject: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885
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Hi,

I am looking for a pattern for something small to embroider from around
1885.
Something like a purse.
10 December I will have a Anton Piek (Dutch painter) reenactment event
in Haarlem(Netherlands).
And I am looking for something to embroider while sitting in front of a
window.
So it schouldn't be too small to see but small enough for me to finisch
in not to much time and easy to transport.
I will be wearing this dress
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/19thcent/19woman/Bustle/Bustle.html

Any help will be greatly appriciated.
Greetings,
       Deredere



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At 10:56 26/10/2005, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am looking for a pattern for something small to embroider from around
>1885.
>Something like a purse.
>10 December I will have a Anton Piek (Dutch painter) reenactment event
>in Haarlem(Netherlands).
>And I am looking for something to embroider while sitting in front of a
>window.
>So it schouldn't be too small to see but small enough for me to finisch
>in not to much time and easy to transport.
>I will be wearing this dress
>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/19thcent/19woman/Bustle/Bustle.html


Have you done any Bargello work? You can make needle cases and 
scissors cases from bargello, and it is easy to [ick up where you 
left off of someone is talking to you. Also it is easy to explain to 
the public if they ask. Search for Bargello patterns or Florentine 
work.Look here for starters.


http://www.bayrose.org/needlework/Bargello_patterns.html

Suzi 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 26 06:53:49 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi,
Yesterday i was chasing a new working lamp as my old one had broken. I was 
going trough the most of the city,
On my way i went into a drawing shop and found a nice devise i can use for 
my costume work.
It is made by a firm called Linex, it is a long green rubber stick wich is 
bendable to make curves.
This is ideal for instance for when you are going to  make a chemise that is 
going to have the same cut as the stays. You just outline your nedkline of 
the stays with this stick, while they are sitting on your dress stand, and 
voila you have the cut for the chemises neckline.
I also found a nice templet for small cirkles in a lot of sizes to use when 
i make embroidery patterns.
I got my lamp in the end, a nice magnifying lamp, and i found out that a 
light table, is affordable. (must wish this for christmass)
Finally i found a solution to transfer my embroidery pattern onto the dark 
grey silk taffeta.
I just draw the pattern reversed and stick it to the wrong side of the 
taffeta, and then i make small stitches with a contrasting collour thread. 
This way i get a fine trace to work from.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 26 06:54:15 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:19:41 +0200
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Hi,
Also Petite point was very popular to make. A rose motif would not be 
difficult to find for a purse embroidery.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <Deredere.Galbraith@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 11:56 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885


> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a pattern for something small to embroider from around
> 1885.
> Something like a purse.
> 10 December I will have a Anton Piek (Dutch painter) reenactment event
> in Haarlem(Netherlands).
> And I am looking for something to embroider while sitting in front of a
> window.
> So it schouldn't be too small to see but small enough for me to finisch
> in not to much time and easy to transport.
> I will be wearing this dress
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/19thcent/19woman/Bustle/Bustle.html
>
> Any help will be greatly appriciated.
> Greetings,
>       Deredere
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of chenille dress
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> Uploaded 3 more photos of the stumpwork dress.
> Desided to discharge the ruffled edge that i made in the drawing, on top
of
> the border of the underskirt. Two much.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/chenillestumpwork.htm
> Bjarne who now adds the small chenille flowers to the edge of the
> underskirt.

That is simply exquisite. The stays are also just so lovely. I really must
stop being tempted by the 18thC you know;)

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a holliday idea


> (I'm in, too.)
>
> It might be handy if, on the list of info we give about ourselves, we
> included our pattern size, because surely patterns are one of those things
> that most people have sitting around unused in their sewing stash.  Or,
> since there are so many pattern sizing systems, especially when you're
> dealing with an international list, include some basic measurements.

perhaps you could use the pattern sizing system from the big 3 as a 
standardised set of measurements, they have a chart of measurements on their 
website (and they are apparently standardized between the 3 companies). This 
sounds like a nice idea and hopefully I'll be able to join another year, 
(this year I should just about manage to afford presents for my family and 1 
or 2 friends but only a couple of my closest friends will be getting 
anything more than a card). Maybe we could consider matching up people in 
the same area as fitting assistants as a holliday gift, that's what I need 
most, somebody to help me fit a pair of bias cut hose as you just can't do 
it on yourself (bending down to do it changes the shape)
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:28:06 -0400
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For a similar occasion, I set myself a pair of slipper tops of velvet
mounted on muslin. I worked popular 19thC motifs with a selection of various
threads. The finished tops were then later finished with lightweight
leather.

Kathleen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <Deredere.Galbraith@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 5:56 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885


> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a pattern for something small to embroider from around
> 1885.
> Something like a purse.
> 10 December I will have a Anton Piek (Dutch painter) reenactment event
> in Haarlem(Netherlands).
> And I am looking for something to embroider while sitting in front of a
> window.
> So it schouldn't be too small to see but small enough for me to finisch
> in not to much time and easy to transport.
> I will be wearing this dress
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/19thcent/19woman/Bustle/Bustle.html
>
> Any help will be greatly appriciated.
> Greetings,
>        Deredere
>
>
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 26 09:33:17 2005
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:30:41 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Fitting buddies, was a holliday idea
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Hi Elizabeth,

      Rather than making it part of the holiday thing, you could just 
ask for someone in your area who can help fit!  I'm lucky to live in 
a big city, so other sewing enthusiasts are not difficult for me to 
find.

      One of the most helpful friends I had help was someone who felt 
she did not know much about sewing.  Because of that, she would do 
exactly what I asked.  Sometimes it's a matter of finding someone who 
is interested in learning or working with that particular historic 
process rather than knowing modern fitting techniques.  The help may 
be closer than you think - someone in your reenactment group, 
perhaps?  It may go slower than with someone who is an experienced 
hose maker, but still the end result of hose that fit!

      As far as giving patterns, isn't there an exchange/sell list for 
h-costume members?  Patterns would be even harder to find the right 
recipient with a random drawing for exchange.  Fabrics, trims, books, 
notions - they can be used by everyone.  Besides size, there are 
different skill and authenticity levels in patterns.  The exchange 
list may be the best way to find someone who will find a pattern 
useful.

      -Carol


>perhaps you could use the pattern sizing system from the big 3 as a 
>standardised set of measurements, they have a chart of measurements 
>on their website (and they are apparently standardized between the 3 
>companies). This sounds like a nice idea and hopefully I'll be able 
>to join another year, (this year I should just about manage to 
>afford presents for my family and 1 or 2 friends but only a couple 
>of my closest friends will be getting anything more than a card). 
>Maybe we could consider matching up people in the same area as 
>fitting assistants as a holliday gift, that's what I need most, 
>somebody to help me fit a pair of bias cut hose as you just can't do 
>it on yourself (bending down to do it changes the shape)
>Elizabeth
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] First Regency
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Not that I know anything about the regency period, but it looks great to 
me!  I also like your short "lessons learned" here.  It makes the 
project even more interesting to hear your thoughts on it.

Sg

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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of chenille dress
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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STUNNING work as always Bjarne.  Thank you so much for sharing!
 
Best of Regards,
Chris G.

michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Uploaded 3 more photos of the stumpwork dress.
> Desided to discharge the ruffled edge that i made in the drawing, on top
of
> the border of the underskirt. Two much.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/chenillestumpwork.htm
> Bjarne who now adds the small chenille flowers to the edge of the
> underskirt.

That is simply exquisite. The stays are also just so lovely. I really must
stop being tempted by the 18thC you know;)




		
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The dress is gorgeous!!! The corset alone is just to die for! Wow!


Karen
Seamstrix
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Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Hi,
> Yesterday i was chasing a new working lamp as my old one had broken. I 
> was going trough the most of the city,
> On my way i went into a drawing shop and found a nice devise i can use 
> for my costume work.
> It is made by a firm called Linex, it is a long green rubber stick wich 
> is bendable to make curves.
> This is ideal for instance for when you are going to  make a chemise 
> that is going to have the same cut as the stays. You just outline your 
> nedkline of the stays with this stick, while they are sitting on your 
> dress stand, and voila you have the cut for the chemises neckline.

I have one of those, mine has a ruler built into it. It is very useful, 
although I wish it was longer than 12 inches.

liz young

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From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of chenille dress
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:55:46 +0000
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Stunning!  Excuse me, I've got to wipe the drool off my keyboard now....

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hi, 
> Uploaded 3 more photos of the stumpwork dress. 
> Desided to discharge the ruffled edge that i made in the drawing, on top of 
> the border of the underskirt. Two much. 
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/chenillestumpwork.htm 
> Bjarne who now adds the small chenille flowers to the edge of the 
> underskirt. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews 
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk 
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of chenille dress
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In a message dated 10/26/2005 5:44:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

Desided  to discharge the ruffled edge that i made in the drawing, on top of 
the  border of the underskirt. Two much.



I disagree.....but it's your dress....
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Yay yay yay yay yay....oh my!  The stays alone are to die for.    I love 
yellow...just wish I could wear it...makes me look dead!

Who is this being done for?


Sg
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Hi Saragrace,
It is made for a young New York´er girl. I have it like this also, yellow is 
not my collour, get paler by it.
But it is a very nice yellow.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WickedFrau" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of chenille dress


> Yay yay yay yay yay....oh my!  The stays alone are to die for.    I love 
> yellow...just wish I could wear it...makes me look dead!
>
> Who is this being done for?
>
>
> Sg
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Just amazing.  Thank you for sharing pictures of your incredible work.
           -Helen/Aidan
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They are called spline curves, and you can get them in a number of 
lengths at big art stores, including lengths over 12 inches. Not 
necessarily with a ruler built in though.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books of Historic Patterns
http://www.lavoltapress.com


<snip>

>>
>> It is made by a firm called Linex, it is a long green rubber stick 
>> wich is bendable to make curves.
>> This is ideal for instance for when you are going to  make a chemise 
>> that is going to have the same cut as the stays. You just outline 
>> your nedkline of the stays with this stick, while they are sitting on 
>> your dress stand, and voila you have the cut for the chemises neckline.
>
>
> I have one of those, mine has a ruler built into it. It is very 
> useful, although I wish it was longer than 12 inches.
>
> l

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for pattern to embroider 1885
References: <20051026095649.727B53193CB@pelian.kabelfoon.nl>
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_Fashions of the Gilded Age_ includes 31 embroidery patterns from 1877 
through 1882, including many  borders for both dresses and lingerie (you 
can do as much length as you like), chemises, collars, cravats, 
slippers, a satchel, a parasol, and a dress and a jacket pattern, each 
including embroidery for that garment.  Except for the dress and the 
jacket, most of the embroidery patterns are in Volume 2.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Deredere Galbraith wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a pattern for something small to embroider from around
> 1885.
> Something like a purse.
>
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Lavolta Press wrote:

> They are called spline curves, and you can get them in a number of 
> lengths at big art stores, including lengths over 12 inches. Not 
> necessarily with a ruler built in though.

This is a job for Felt-tipped Marker Woman!

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

"Then to the King's Theatre, where we saw "Midsummer's Night's Dream," 
which I had never seen before, nor shall ever again, for it is the most 
insipid ridiculous play that ever I saw in my life." -- Samuel Pepys, 1662
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They are also called, for some strange reason,'Bendable Curves'. :-)
They can be found in any art store, drafting supply or even places like
Office Depot or Staples. I steal my husbands on a pretty regular basis...

Sheridan

> They are called spline curves, and you can get them in a number of
> lengths at big art stores, including lengths over 12 inches. Not
> necessarily with a ruler built in though.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press Books of Historic Patterns
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >>
> >> It is made by a firm called Linex, it is a long green rubber stick
> >> wich is bendable to make curves.
> >> This is ideal for instance for when you are going to  make a chemise
> >> that is going to have the same cut as the stays. You just outline
> >> your nedkline of the stays with this stick, while they are sitting on
> >> your dress stand, and voila you have the cut for the chemises neckline.
> >
> >
> > I have one of those, mine has a ruler built into it. It is very
> > useful, although I wish it was longer than 12 inches.
> >
> > l
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: [h-cost] New UK re-enactors recycling list
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Re-enactors_recycle/

Is a new list set up for re-enactors to freely offer goods that are no 
longer required, for example you have outgrown stuff or changed periods, or 
made a better version.

Items may not be sold. But reasonable postage can be asked for, but a sae is 
prefered, as most people will not be close to one another.

Please pass the message to any other re-enactors or living history folk who 
might be interested

Thanks

Mel

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:26:07 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fitting buddies, was a holliday idea
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bf853d4a2ffc@[209.249.180.121]>
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>      One of the most helpful friends I had help was someone who felt she 
> did not know much about sewing.  Because of that, she would do exactly 
> what I asked.  Sometimes it's a matter of finding someone who is 
> interested in learning or working with that particular historic process 
> rather than knowing modern fitting techniques.

I found someone like that in 1980, and now she's really good at it.  Then 
she moved 5 hours away, and we have to save our fittings up for the times 
we see each other.  By now we know each other's fitting problems, and 
centuries, and what to do about it.  She learned quite a lot, and, 
actually, so did I.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
           /----\   /---\))

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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] helpfull tool
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Bendable as opposed to a set of French curves, which
are fixed.

Very very useful device--I took the back curve of a
doll with the flexible curve, and had very minor
fitting to make a first draft dress fit well on her.

Ann in CT

--- Shane & Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> 
> They are also called, for some strange
> reason,'Bendable Curves'. :-)
> They can be found in any art store, drafting supply
> or even places like
> Office Depot or Staples. I steal my husbands on a
> pretty regular basis...
> 
> Sheridan
> 
> > They are called spline curves,  Not
> > necessarily with a ruler built in though.
> >
> > Fran



	
		
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Oct 26 20:42:34 2005
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Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
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Hi all,

Just wanted to share the news.

The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
2 oz, 19" long.

Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
before.

I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).

Kimiko Small
Proud Mama.


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Now that was a clever use.  I would have never thought of using mine 
like that!  Thanks for the tip!
Ann Catelli wrote:

>I took the back curve of a
>doll with the flexible curve, and had very minor
>fitting to make a first draft dress fit well on her.
>  
>

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Congratulations!!!!!!!!
De

-----Original Message-----
Hi all,

Just wanted to share the news.

The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
2 oz, 19" long.

Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
before.

I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).

Kimiko Small
Proud Mama.


_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
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At 04:44 27/10/2005, you wrote:
>Congratulations!!!!!!!!
>De
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Hi all,
>
>Just wanted to share the news.
>
>The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
>Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs,
>2 oz, 19" long.
>
>Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
>What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The
>pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right
>before.
>
>I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for
>the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if
>only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).



Congratulations to all the Smalls, big and little!

Suzi 


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From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" <goofy1@suscom.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <004301c5d9fb$ec0beb70$7c83fea9@CPQ21932199711>	<435F9854.4090406@fenris.net><435FB283.4090506@lavoltapress.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] helpfull tool
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue+dated+1145898698.782f13@thibault.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] helpfull tool


> Lavolta Press wrote:
>
>> They are called spline curves, and you can get them in a number of 
>> lengths at big art stores, including lengths over 12 inches. Not 
>> necessarily with a ruler built in though.
>
> This is a job for Felt-tipped Marker Woman!

LOL...my son is Sharpie Boy! (And crayon boy, and pencil boy, and any other 
drawing medium he can get his artistic little hands on!)

Dianne

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: <BeyondThePaleRPG@yahoogroups.com>; <isleofmannca@yahoogroups.com>; 
<CVCostumers@yahoogroups.com>; <margospatterns@yahoogroups.com>; 
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition


> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to share the news.
>
> The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
> Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
> 2 oz, 19" long.
>
> Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
> What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
> pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
> before.

Congratulations! She's just beautiful!

Dianne 

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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
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All Right- another client to costume, who won't whine about the cost!
(Tho' she'll probably find other stuff to whine about (wink, grin))
Congrats to mom, dad and all the standby clan members!!
Betsy

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Kimiko Small
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 7:46 PM
To: BeyondThePaleRPG@yahoogroups.com; isleofmannca@yahoogroups.com;
CVCostumers@yahoogroups.com; margospatterns@yahoogroups.com;
h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition

Hi all,

Just wanted to share the news.

The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
2 oz, 19" long.

Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
before.

I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).

Kimiko Small
Proud Mama.


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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
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Yes, Congratulations to you all and welcome to Maurelle!
 
Chris G. 

Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" 
To: ; ; 
; ; 

Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition


> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to share the news.
>
> The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
> Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
> 2 oz, 19" long.
>
> Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
> What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
> pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
> before.

Congratulations! She's just beautiful!

Dianne 


		
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From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] CostumeCon24 Online Registration
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:23:45 -0500
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I didn't see any dates listed anywhere for this event - can anyone provide?
I might actually be able to attend this one, as it is in the Midwest.

*******************************************************************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
Bristol Renaissance Faire
 
My arms are too short to box with God.  --Johnny Cash
*******************************************************************
 

> 
> Announcement for Costume Con 24!!!!
> 
> Online registration is now available via our website. We 
> accept payment via PayPal.
> 
> http://www.epicmovies.org/cgi-bin/register.cgi
> 
> CC24 Committee
> 

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Rebecca Schmitt wrote:

> I didn't see any dates listed anywhere for this event - can anyone provide?
> I might actually be able to attend this one, as it is in the Midwest.
> 


It is over Memorial Day weekend,  May 26-28 I believe.

I was planning to go. It's only about 4 hours from here.




Dawn


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If you can make it to the Midwest, you're in luck. 
 Costume Con 24, on Memorial Day weekend 2006, is in Des 
Moines, IA, and the next one, Costume Con 25, is March 29 
- April 2, 2007 in St. Louis, MO.

Karen

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:23:45 -0500
  "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net> wrote:
> 
> I didn't see any dates listed anywhere for this event - 
>can anyone provide?
> I might actually be able to attend this one, as it is in 
>the Midwest.
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Congratulations, Kimiko! And best wishes for your whole family!

Karen
Seamstrix
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From: "Kate Pinner" <pinner@mccc.edu>
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I have 2 --one is 18" and the other is 20".  Found them in the notions
dept of JoAnn's and a drafting supply store

Kate
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Elizabeth Young
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:53 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] helpfull tool

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Hi,
> Yesterday i was chasing a new working lamp as my old one had broken. I

> was going trough the most of the city,
> On my way i went into a drawing shop and found a nice devise i can use

> for my costume work.
> It is made by a firm called Linex, it is a long green rubber stick
wich 
> is bendable to make curves.
> This is ideal for instance for when you are going to  make a chemise 
> that is going to have the same cut as the stays. You just outline your

> nedkline of the stays with this stick, while they are sitting on your 
> dress stand, and voila you have the cut for the chemises neckline.

I have one of those, mine has a ruler built into it. It is very useful, 
although I wish it was longer than 12 inches.

liz young

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From: Branwyn Maura <jauncourt@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Rural Pennsylvania Clothing to be reprinted
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This message is beign forwarded to interested parties
at the request of the Shumways - the volume in
question is to be reprinted, and is being offered at a
discount to early purchasers. If you are at all
interested in late 18th/early 19th century Eastern
American clothing, this is fantastic resource.

Maura

"From:	"Dorothy and George Shumway" 
"Dear Maura,
We are pleased to announce that  RURAL PENNSYLVANIA
CLOTHING by Ellen Gehret is being reprinted and should
be available by the 28th of November, 2005.
The book will be softbound but sewn- not glued, which
makes it a very durable book.
 
"We want to thank you and the members of your 18th
century email list who initiated a request to reprint
this book.  In appreciation we are offering the book
at a special price to you,  your reenator list, and
others during the month of November.  The book will be
available for $35 and free shipping on orders placed
during November 2005.  On the 1st of  December,  the
price will be $40 plus $6 shipping.
 
"I will be putting the information on our website
www.shumwaypublisher.com this weekend.  People can
also call us toll free 1-888-748-6929 to order.  We
accept visa, mastercard, and American Express, also
checks and money orders.
 
"Thank you again, and since you were the first to
write us, I will ask you to  pass on the infomation to
others rather than my emailing them individually.
 
"Dorothy Shumway
George Shumway Publisher
3900 Deep Run Lane
York, PA 17402"



	
		
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Congratulations to you and your husband, Kimiko!She's beautiful, and
you look really great considering a C-section.

All the best,
LynnD
(from Costume College)

On 10/27/05, Karen R Bergquist <penhalion@juno.com> wrote:
> Congratulations, Kimiko! And best wishes for your whole family!
>
> Karen
> Seamstrix
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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Today I hold in my hands the page proofs of Medieval Clothing & Textiles,
volume 2! For those who are interested, the contents of vol. 2 are listed
here:

http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

There are eight papers, covering (as always) a range of periods, places,
and disciplines. Costumers will want to take a close look especially if
you have interests in any of these topics:

-- Early Irish dress -- although the paper focuses on a particular
literary description, it has extensive discussion of archaeological finds
and artworks, and the footnotes provide a pretty good summary of the state
of research in this area

-- 13th/14th century French cloth trade, terms, and availability

-- 15th/16th century textile cleaning methods (by h-coster Drea Leed)

-- Renaissance "flea furs" -- this highly comprehensive study is loaded
with primary citations, and will stand as THE definitive piece of research
on this subject

-- Elizabethan/Jacobean embroidered jackets (by h-coster Danielle
Nunn-Weinberg)

There's more, too.

You can pre-order at the Boydell site (URL above), or through Amazon
(sizable discount at the moment).

Papers for Volume 3 are rolling in; we have some really good names and
topics, but I can't tell you what yet!

--Robin
(feel free to forward this message in its entirety)

==========================================================
Robin Netherton 
Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles
robin@nightowl.net

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Congratulations!!  She is beautiful! Get your rest and heal quickly.
 
Annette M


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:45:30 -0700
From: Kimiko Small 
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition

Hi all,

Just wanted to share the news.

The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
2 oz, 19" long.

Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
before.

I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).

Kimiko Small
Proud Mama.
--------------------------
		
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Congratulations, Kimiko.   She's lovely!

Roscelin




Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:45:30 -0700
From: Kimiko Small 
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition

Hi all,

Just wanted to share the news.

The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
2 oz, 19" long.

Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
before.

I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).

Kimiko Small
Proud Mama.
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Bjarne:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gail Finke

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-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Moeller [mailto:ladyanne@quik.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:52 AM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] a holiday idea

Apologies to the list. I meant to send the letter to Suzi privately.  That
is what sleep deprivation will do to you.  Anne



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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:54:47 -0400
From: Marie Stewart <maricelt@gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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Man,  this one looks positively yummy.  Thank you for the sampling...
although, now it makes the waiting harder.  :>   Bridgette

>Costumers will want to take a close look especially if
> you have interests in any of these topics:
>
> -- Early Irish dress -- although the paper focuses on a particular
> literary description, it has extensive discussion of archaeological finds
> and artworks, and the footnotes provide a pretty good summary of the state
> of research in this area
>
> -- 13th/14th century French cloth trade, terms, and availability
>
> -- 15th/16th century textile cleaning methods (by h-coster Drea Leed)
>
> -- Renaissance "flea furs" -- this highly comprehensive study is loaded
> with primary citations, and will stand as THE definitive piece of research
> on this subject
>
> -- Elizabethan/Jacobean embroidered jackets (by h-coster Danielle
> Nunn-Weinberg)
>
> There's more, too.

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:-(    wish there was something in the states like this! Took a peek just out of curiosity and saw something that sounded like it might be rather useful.
 
Annette M



Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:00:15 +0100
From: "Melanie Wilson" 
Subject: [h-cost] New UK re-enactors recycling list

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Re-enactors_recycle/



Is a new list set up for re-enactors to freely offer goods that are no 
longer required, for example you have outgrown stuff or changed periods, or 
made a better version.

Items may not be sold. But reasonable postage can be asked for, but a sae is 
prefered, as most people will not be close to one another.

Please pass the message to any other re-enactors or living history folk who 
might be interested

Thanks

Mel



		
---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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Wa-hoo!
--sue, doing a happy dance...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:51 PM
Subject: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report


> 
> Today I hold in my hands the page proofs of Medieval Clothing & Textiles,
> volume 2! 

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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] a holiday idea
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:51:50 -0400
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>I didn't answer because of the pedantic habits of British Customs 
>Officers. Virtually everything sent from the U.S seems to incur a 
>charge - which is why my friends carry gifts with them when they 
>visit, rather than send things. (And yes, I know what the rules are 
>governing charges, and that gifts don't count - depends on the value, 
>and the Officer!)

>Suzi

Does this mean I should not send a box?  I can't imagine they would charge
customs on things like fabric samples, little gadgets or papers/magazines,
etc.  I certainly plan to make every effort to be there in April but it is
too soon to tell.  The only thing I am sure of is getting to Switzerland.
Since my husband does not yet know how long he can leave his business I
can't plan much yet.  I want to visit both you in London and some old family
friends in France.  Of course, I will still plan to bring "stuff" (any
requests?) with me but I would like to be able to send the odd package
anyway. Should I tell you what I will send before sending it?  I hate to do
that because I like to send little surprises at Christmas time.  Just let me
know what you think.

On the home front I am now working full time (40 hours per week).  I work
10AM to 2PM and 6PM to 10PM.  I HAVE NO LIFE!!! Fortunately this will only
last about 12-15 weeks and the job is very interesting.  Besides, I enjoy
being temporary management.  The only problem is lack of time.  

Medically I have very painful arthritis in my right knee and bursitis in my
left hip.  I went to the doctor today and got cortisone shots in both places
(he called me his little pin cushion <grin>) I told him he stick pins in me
all day if the pain stopped.  I do feel much better several hours later but
I am still getting a handicapped hanger for my car so I can park closer to
the door at work.  With all the extra people hired for the busy season, I
have to park waaaay out there and the walk is brutal on bad days.  Tomorrow
I go to the hand doctor for my worsening carpal tunnel.  I am just going to
pieces.  Can't walk, dance, sew or lift.  And using a computer with an old
type mouse (which is what I have at work) is painful.  I might see if I can
get permission to get a track ball mouse.  I have one at home and I have a
computer connection at home so I don't mind buying my own.  All I can say is
"Golden Years my arse". Sorry for the long gripe session.  Being in constant
pain for over 3 weeks has made me a bit frustrated.  How is your health
doing?  Still having dizzy spells?  I hope not. 

Well, I am off to bed. Can't stay up quite as late these days.  Take care.
Hope to have time to call soon. I will let you know.
Love, Anne  
_______________________________________________

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Costume-Con 24
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It's actually May 26-29, 2006.  Go up to the home page <www.epicmovies.org>
and there are the dates, as well as the links to all the rest of the 
info (hotel, events, etc.).  To find out more about Costume-Con in 
general, go to <www.Costume-Con.org>
"Timeline" will give you links to past and future Costume-Cons (with pics).

Sandy

At 12:39 PM 10/27/2005, you wrote:
>From: "Rebecca Schmitt" <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
>Subject: RE: [h-cost] CostumeCon24 Online Registration
>
>I didn't see any dates listed anywhere for this event - can anyone provide?
>I might actually be able to attend this one, as it is in the Midwest.
>
>Rebecca Schmitt
>aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence
>Bristol Renaissance Faire



>From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon24 Online Registration
>
>It is over Memorial Day weekend,  May 26-28 I believe.
>
>I was planning to go. It's only about 4 hours from here.
>
>Dawn

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT - I've listed costume book & videos on ebay
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Greetings,

I've just listed a Aileen Ribeirl's "The Gallery of Fashion" Book on 
ebay.  It is a new copy, still in the original plastic I had 
accidentally received two copies of it.  I have also listed some 
costume movies (VHS) and will be listing more things soon.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6573892808&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

Cheers,
Danielle

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Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:49:25 +0100
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Bleak House
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Saw the first episode of this dramatisation (which we were discussing earlier) last night, and enjoyed it very much. I'm not a Victorian expert, but the costumes seemed fine to me, except that I don't know why Esther was travelling without a bonnet on in the early scenes, when she was seen wearing one later.

See  http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/bleakhouse/


Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: New UK re-enactors recycling list
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Quoting Kahlara <kahlara@yahoo.com>:

> :-(    wish there was something in the states like this! Took a peek 
> just out of curiosity and saw something that sounded like it might be 
> rather useful.

If you go to groups.yahoo.com and enter a search string of "SCA recycle"
4 local groups will come up.

OakenFreebies
ConstellationFreebies
MidlandsFreebies
PentamereFreebies

If you look for "SCA sale" you'll find

garb4sale
SCAforsale
scabarterandtrade

"SCA freecycle" returns

SCAcanrecyclefree

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleak House
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At 13:49 28/10/2005, you wrote:
>Saw the first episode of this dramatisation (which we were 
>discussing earlier) last night, and enjoyed it very much. I'm not a 
>Victorian expert, but the costumes seemed fine to me, except that I 
>don't know why Esther was travelling without a bonnet on in the 
>early scenes, when she was seen wearing one later.
>
>See  http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/bleakhouse/


My guess is that the bonnet and the hood of her cloak were made 
independently, and when it came to do the filming, they couldn't get 
the hood to fit over the bonnet! (Probably wouldn't work for the bit 
where she takes the hood off too.) Otherwise rather an impressive 
debut I feel. And Charles Dance makes a great Victorian. So many 
wonderful faces, almost cartoonish, but made it much easier to 
remember who was who. Looking forward to the next few weeks - two 
weekly half hour episodes - lovely.

Suzi


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I haven't seen Bleak House on this side of the pond yet,  but Elizabeth
I is scheduled on PBS Masterpiece Theatre Nov 13th and 20th(after
"Kidnapped" airs the next two Sundays)so there should be lots for us
Yanks to comment and critique. Hope the costuming on Elizabeth I is
better than last year's Henry VIII which I had a good laugh over, for
the most part.

Cindy Abel

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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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Hi Robin--
Bless you for doing some late period stuff! I have mine on preorder already!
Dame Catriona MacDuff
(Monica Spence)

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Robin Netherton
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:52 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report



Today I hold in my hands the page proofs of Medieval Clothing & Textiles,
volume 2! For those who are interested, the contents of vol. 2 are listed
here:

http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

There are eight papers, covering (as always) a range of periods, places,
and disciplines. Costumers will want to take a close look especially if
you have interests in any of these topics:

-- Early Irish dress -- although the paper focuses on a particular
literary description, it has extensive discussion of archaeological finds
and artworks, and the footnotes provide a pretty good summary of the state
of research in this area

-- 13th/14th century French cloth trade, terms, and availability

-- 15th/16th century textile cleaning methods (by h-coster Drea Leed)

-- Renaissance "flea furs" -- this highly comprehensive study is loaded
with primary citations, and will stand as THE definitive piece of research
on this subject

-- Elizabethan/Jacobean embroidered jackets (by h-coster Danielle
Nunn-Weinberg)

There's more, too.

You can pre-order at the Boydell site (URL above), or through Amazon
(sizable discount at the moment).

Papers for Volume 3 are rolling in; we have some really good names and
topics, but I can't tell you what yet!

--Robin
(feel free to forward this message in its entirety)

==========================================================
Robin Netherton
Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles
robin@nightowl.net

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, monica spence wrote:

> Bless you for doing some late period stuff! I have mine on preorder
> already!

We can't hit everything every time, but we're trying to make the rounds
;-)

Vol. 1 was a good choice for Anglo-Saxon specialists; this one is more of
a Renaissance volume. No idea yet on how Vol. 3 is going to fall out -- we
have five articles in hand, and more coming, so much will depend on which
ones make it through review and editing in time for the next deadline.

--Robin


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Robin, how can we get Vol. 1?

Roscelin


> 
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, monica spence wrote:

> 
> We can't hit everything every time, but we're trying to make the rounds
> ;-)
> 
> Vol. 1 was a good choice for Anglo-Saxon specialists; this one is more of
> a Renaissance volume. No idea yet on how Vol. 3 is going to fall out -- we
> have five articles in hand, and more coming, so much will depend on which
> ones make it through review and editing in time for the next deadline.
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 roscelinlimoges@comcast.net wrote:

> Robin, how can we get Vol. 1?

You can see the contents here:
  http://www.boydell.co.uk/43831236.HTM

You can also order from there (that's the publisher website) but at the
moment Amazon has a better price:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1843831236/

I understand sales have been very good (thanks in large part to the
non-academic costuming community -- thanks, all!) and have outpaced what
the publisher anticipated at the time of printing. So, I do not know how
long supplies will last. I think it's fair to say that you shouldn't
depend on being able to buy Vol. 1 a year or two from now (though I'm sure
there will eventually be used copies floating around).

--Robin



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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:41:43 +0200
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Hi Kimiko,
Sorry for being late, but i want to congratulate you two!
Lovely daughter

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: <BeyondThePaleRPG@yahoogroups.com>; <isleofmannca@yahoogroups.com>; 
<CVCostumers@yahoogroups.com>; <margospatterns@yahoogroups.com>; 
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 2:45 AM
Subject: [h-cost] OT: The Small family addition


> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to share the news.
>
> The Small family welcome their newest little addition.
> Maurelle Kimihana Small was born on October 17, 2005. She came in at 7lbs, 
> 2 oz, 19" long.
>
> Photos of her can be seen at my husband's blog:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/c0demonkey/13616.html
> What can't be seen is her dark brown hair, like her dad and I. The 
> pediatrician thinks she will have green or hazel eyes, and he's been right 
> before.
>
> I am still doing recovery from the c-section, and am currently on meds for 
> the pain. But I am slowly getting back into a semi-regular rourtine, if 
> only I could think straight orspell while on vicadin (wheee...).
>
> Kimiko Small
> Proud Mama.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Oct 28 14:51:59 2005
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] First Regency
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:51:26 +0200
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Hi Hope,
Congratulations with your furst regency dress, and thanks for sharing.
When i think about my first regency dress, yours in deed looks far more 
period, and that is well done. I was so stupid to make one with mylar 
palliettes on, without bathering that it was not invented yeat.
I have a similar fabric, an embroidered tulle net in autumn green with 
embroidered roses wich i have not find a use for yeat.
Well done!

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hope Greenberg" <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:38 AM
Subject: [h-cost] First Regency


>A couple of months ago I had questions about constructing my first 
>early-19th century gown. So many of you were very helpful--many thanks! The 
>corset went well, as did the petticoat and shift. I wore the gown to my 
>first English Country Dance ball.
>
> Here's a pic:
>
> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/ballgown.jpg
>
> Here's what I like/don't like/plan to do differently next time:
> 1) Fabric: I always tell myself not to get sucked in to fabrics that 
> aren't authentic looking just because you liek them. I didn't heed myself 
> this time: I absolutely fell in love with the fabric. It's an embroidered 
> sheer. The colors/pattern would do better for an early 20thc entury dress, 
> but I couldn't resist. sigh.
> 2) The underdress/lining is a pale green silk shantung. Shantung wasn't my 
> first choice, but it was on super sale at fashionfabrics and I thought for 
> a first attempt I'd better mind the budget.
> 3) The sleeves are a variation of a gown in the McCord museum. The petals 
> are a bit ballet-costume maybe.
> 4) The pattern is basically from Nancy Bradfield's "Costume in Detail" 
> gown from 1823, drawn on p. 119.
> 5) In the pic I drew in the neckline ribbon a bit too tightly in the 
> front. Should be worn with the neckline wider.
>
> But generally, I'm pretty happy with it! I also made a white day gown 
> that's a much closer replica of an 1815 gown in Bradfield but no pics yet.
>
> Comments that would be helpful for the next attempt would be welcome!
>
> Next up: for the holidays, another ball gown, probably a taffeta, late 
> teens-early 20's, solid color with piping details.
>
> - Hope
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 


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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:52:22 -0700
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On order with Amazon as of five minutes after your note!

Wanda
> 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT early medieval copper jewelry on ebay
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Greetings,

Please forgive another commercial posting here...  I've just posted 
an early medieval copper parure on ebay which would probably be 
perfect for Viking or Saxon, although I do admit that, that time 
period is greatly outside my expertise:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5048451007&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

Cheers,
Danielle

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Subject: [h-cost] So you want to be Jack the Ripper...
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Does anybody know the size and shape of a man's cravat c. 1889? Were men 
even wearing cravats at this time? I'm trying to find images of men's 
outwear and not having a lot of luck at the moment.




Dawn


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From: Kahlara <kahlara@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: New UK re-enactors recycling list
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Thank you Susan!
 
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:03:52 -0500
From: "Susan B. Farmer" 
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: New UK re-enactors recycling list
 


Quoting Kahlara :

> :-( wish there was something in the states like this! Took a peek 
> just out of curiosity and saw something that sounded like it might be 
> rather useful.

If you go to groups.yahoo.com and enter a search string of "SCA recycle"
4 local groups will come up.

OakenFreebies
ConstellationFreebies
MidlandsFreebies
PentamereFreebies

If you look for "SCA sale" you'll find

garb4sale
SCAforsale
scabarterandtrade

"SCA freecycle" returns

SCAcanrecyclefree

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

		
---------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 05:43:16 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
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Greetings,

This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
century stuff you have to drool at this website:
<http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/>http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/

Cheers,
Danielle 
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Subject: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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I want to make a Tudor outfit for a 12th Night event in January, which 
will be set in 1530's England.  Being that I have a bad habit of 
over-researching and not doing, I need to start working this weekend to 
give myself enough time.  This was actually a difficult decision to make 
as I likely will not be able to wear this outfit beyond this event and 
possibly a Renaissance fair this spring, due to slow but steady weight 
loss.  I've used that as an excuse to only live in t-tunics for far too 
long, though, so I'm thinking that if I can make this, I can find the 
courage make (and remake) the gothic fitted dresses of my actual persona 
(mid 14th C England).
 
I'm unemployed at the moment, meaning that if I get a lot of work done 
now, I'll be at an advantage, but it also means that my budget is fairly 
low.  I'm at an intermediate level of costuming, meaning I've made 
simple costumes (side-laced late 15th C Venetian is my most complicated 
to date) without commercial patterns and french seams don't intimidate 
me, but I've never even dreamed of doing something at this level.  I 
think I'm ready for a challenge.
 
My goal is to be authentic in design, but creative in the execution, as 
I won't have the budget for the best materials.  If I'm going to put 
this much work into a gown, I'd like to enter it into an A&S contest at 
some point, so I want my decisions to have period justifications.  My 
initial plan is to be somewhat plain, so I can be sure it will be done 
for the event, then add to it later if I wish.
 
My inspirations are:
Jane Seymour by Holbein, 1537 - 
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/redjane.jpg
- What I want to take from this dress is the color and fabric of the 
main dress (I love red velvet), jewelled trim and implied construction 
(pinned stomacher covering the front lacing).  I don't like the brown 
tapestry or the gabled hood and the embroidery is a little too ambitious 
at this stage.

Mary Tudor by unknown (wedding portrait to Charles Brandon), 1515 - 
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/marytudor.jpg
- What I want to take from this is the french hood, despite the fact 
that you don't see many french hoods in portraits until nearly 1540.  
Anne Boleyn was already active in court before 1530, and this portrait 
was from 1515, so I'm assuming it was definitely there.  I like this 
shape, as opposed to the transitional angled one I see in portraits 
around 1530, like the portraits of the More family or Anne Cresacre. 
 
Lady Guildford by Holbein, 1527 - 
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/guildford.jpg
- I like the fact that she's not a wisp of a woman.  I like the look of 
the foldback sleeves matching the rest of the gown, even though it is 
plain, and I might end up using the idea of using a brocade trim around 
the dress in case my time or budget won't accommodate the jewels.  I 
also like the pleated false sleeves in that iridescent fabric 
(especially in that it isn't tapestry).  Is that cloth of gold?  It 
doesn't appear that her gown has a split skirt.  I also like her 
paternoster (could that be red coral?).

Undergarments:
My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a 
farthingale.  I've read opinions that say yes you need them and I've 
read opinions that say no, you can live with a stiffly lined bodice and 
a petticoat(s) and that evidence in wardrobe accounts didn't show these 
undergarments until after 1540-1550.  If I can avoid the corset and 
farthingale with period justification, I would be thrilled, as this 
would cut a week off the project.  I'm a size 28/30 woman (depends on 
the clothing) with only a C cup chest, so breast support is not 
something I have a great need for, but I do have a couple of fat rolls 
at my sides.  Is this an automatic "make a corset" proposition then?  I 
think my canvas-lined Venetians did very well for a smooth line when 
they fit (they're both currently too loose to provide any support) and I 
will have two gown layers.  Anyone here have any experiences with 
plus-sized late period garb and corsets or the lack thereof?

I have my Italian chemise, but the sleeves are very full, so I will 
likely have to make a new one.  I plan on using Drea Leed's smock 
generator, unless I find something better.  I've heard something about 
the sleeves being off, so I'll have to do a mockup first since I've 
never used her generator.  There's also a basic low-necked smock pattern 
on vertetsable.com, but it doesn't use any gores so I'm not sure on its 
authenticity.

Kirtle:
After looking at the evidence, I tend to agree that they wore two 
dresses/kirtles/whatever you call them in addition to the chemise 
instead of just a forepart skirt.  Of course this will add more work, 
but I'd feel better about it going this way - not to mention that the 
false sleeves will be more secure and I really only have to draft one 
pattern with slight modifications.

This layer will be a short sleeved kirtle, consisting of the "good" 
fabric for the forepart of the skirt and top of the bodice and a similar 
weight cheap fabric for the rest where it won't be seen.  If I do a 
jewelled neckline, it will be attached to this layer.  I have no idea 
how this is supposed to lace up yet - front, back, or sides (which I 
read as one theory especially if the jewels go all the way around the neck).
 
I am completely unsure about the "good" fabric to use at this point.  Of 
the portraits I see, either you have solid/tapestry or print/print.  I'm 
not a huge tapestry fan.  I do have in hand more than enough ivory satin 
of a suitable weight to use, but it is plain.  I thought about maybe 
couching/beading estoiles, which is part of my device, on the false 
sleeves and forepart, but this sort of thing wasn't done at this time, 
as far as I can see.  Would going plain be such a crime or a plausible 
non-royalty substitution?  Any suggestions for a good contrasting or 
complementing color to use?  The Tudors loved gold, but I'm not the 
biggest fan.
 
The false sleeves would be made of the same good fabric as used for the 
kirtle, pinned or attached to the kirtle.  If I end up doing a shiny or 
iridescent fabric instead of tapestry, I'm tempted to pleat them, like 
Lady Guildford's portrait.

Overdress:
I plan on using red cotton velvet or velveteen - I know velveteen would 
be more within my budget, but I'm not sure of the overall look of it 
yet.  Would it work well?  I would like for the foldback sleeves to be 
the same color of the dress, as seen with Lady Guildford, but I don't 
see many other examples like this until later.  Could this also be an 
acceptable compromise for someone not of royalty?  The front of the 
skirt will be split to show off the "good" fabric of the kirtle.  If I 
have a train, it will only be a slight one.

Accessories:
Jewelry will be simple.  Since I don't really like gold, is silver an 
acceptable substitute?  I notice from the Mary Tudor portrait that they 
didn't see a problem with mixing gold and silver.  I probably will use 
plenty of glass pearls.  I will have the two standard necklaces and a 
girdle, not sure yet about any brooches.  I'll work on that after I 
finish the dresses.
 
My french hood will be of more of a curved design, but not overly 
fancy.  I'm not sure which fabric to use for my crescent, as I've seen 
fabric used from the overdress, the folded back sleeves, or the 
forepart/false sleeve.  I guess whichever fabric I prefer.  This is also 
a lower priority at this point of the project.

Stockings are an extremely low priority at this point, as I could live 
without them, and I have some Mary Jane-style shoes that will pass.
 
So, what do you think?  I have done so much reading that my head is 
spinning with details.  I don't see a lot of recreation in 1530, moreso 
in the 1540 range, where there are some changes.  I wish I had more 
non-royal sources as I really don't need to be that high of class and 
I'd like to know where I can legitimately skimp on the details.  I'm 
just looking for some feedback and corrections as needed because I want 
to go fabric shopping within the week.

-- 
Elinor Salter


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
References: <72adc2660510271654k76e8e9e9v8ce64f7bc6f971f6@mail.gmail.com>	<HGEEKKPFPKOJBDPGKLOCEENMLLAA.wandap@hevanet.com>
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Oh my that is lovely!  I love the 'attitudes!'

>
> <http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/>http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/ 
>
>

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:36:03 +0200
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Hi Danielle,

It is such a shame because i would die to se this page, but i cant se it!
I tryed to download flashplayer, but i think perhaps it is my anti virus 
that refuses me to se it!
Got to go and have a coffe in an internet cafe.
The embroideries are machine made i know, but the quality is exquisite!

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" <dannw@mn.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site


> Greetings,
>
> This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
> century stuff you have to drool at this website:
> <http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/>http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
>
> Cheers,
> Danielle _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Oct 29 11:36:57 2005
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] grey waistcoat embroidery
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Well, i know i said i had to waite with this till when i have finished the
yellow dress, but i could not resist my lust to try out the mulberry silk
threads i got.
This is going to be a dark grey gentlemans embroidered waistcoat of 1770ies.
It is vey hard to trace pattern to dark fabric, so i used my rice paper,
reversed the pattern and sticked it to the backside of the taffeta. Then i
used white sewingthread and small running stitches to outline the whole
pattern. This worked fine, but it took some time to do.
Here is one pattern repeat of the pattern. At the bottom of the page;
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/herreveste..htm

Bjarne







Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holiday Gift Exchange -REMINDER
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Just a reminder to folks who want to participate. The sign-up deadline 
is Tuesday, November 1st.

If you have not sent me your mailing address and introduction (see 
below) you are not signed up.



Dawn



> Welcome to the 2005 H-COST Holiday Gift Exchange.
> 
> Please DO NOT reply to the List. Please address all replies to me at 
> Dawn@reddawn.net.
> 
> Please leave the H-COST header intact in your reply so your message does 
> not end up in the spam-trap.
> 
> 
> _What we're doing. _
> 
> We will be exchanging small costume and sewing related gifts with each 
> other. To participate you must sign up (below). There are rules, so that 
> everybody knows what is expected of them, but I want this to be fun so I 
> am keeping the rules simple. If you want to participate, please read 
> this entire message.
> 
> The Sign-up Deadline is November 1st. The Mailing Deadline is Dec.19th.
> 
> 
> _The Rules._
> 
> 1. You are responsible for completing your end of the exchange on time. 
> Please be sure you can follow through on your committment.
> 
> 2. Gifts should be sewing or costume related. Gifts may be hand-made for 
> the recipient, or purchased, or may be items you already have. Gifts 
> should be clean and in good condition and suitable for giving. You will 
> be given guidelines to help you choose a gift for your recipient.
> 
> 3. Gifts should be in the $10-$15 US range, and no more than that. (8-12 
> euros). It's ok if you can get something on sale or make something from 
> supplies you already have. Second-hand books in good condition are ok. 
> We all know how many desireable but out-of-print titles are out there.
> 
> 4. Plan to mail your gift in early to mid December. Remember that it 
> will cost you postage on top of what you spent on the gift. Small and 
> lightweight objects are generally cheaper to mail. If you are mailing 
> overseas you may have to fill out a Customs Declaration.
> 
> 5. After the sign-up period I will create a mailing list for all 
> participants so that I can stay in touch with you and send reminders. 
> Email should be addressed to me, or to this list and not to H-Cost.
> 
> 6. Each person who joins will be randomly matched up with one person 
> they will send a gift to. Additionally, someone else will send a gift to 
> you. For example, Ann will send to Bob. Bob will send to Clara. Clara 
> will send to Ann. This way each person will meet two H-Costumers by 
> giving and receiving. You will know who you are sending to, but not who 
> is sending to you.
> 
> 
> _Join Now!_
> 
> 1. To join you must send me your name and mailing address. Please reply 
> to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list. The sign-up period 
> ends November 1st.
> 
> 2. Introduce yourself. Tell me a little bit about you, your family, your 
> pets, what you do -- as much as you feel comfortable sharing. It's been 
> suggested that you include your dress size.
> 
> 3. Tell me some of your Favorite Things. What do you sew? What time 
> period or place interests you? Is there a favorite technique or process 
> that you enjoy? (weaving, dyeing, embroidery, etc.) Do you have a 
> favorite color or theme?
> 
> 4. If you live outside the US and know your Duty limit, please include 
> it. If you are within the US and do not wish to mail to another country, 
> please let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that about covers it. If you have questions or concerns, please 
> reply to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list.
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
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Did I already sign up?
Sue
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holiday Gift Exchange -REMINDER


> Just a reminder to folks who want to participate. The sign-up deadline is 
> Tuesday, November 1st.
>
> If you have not sent me your mailing address and introduction (see below) 
> you are not signed up.
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
>> Welcome to the 2005 H-COST Holiday Gift Exchange.
>>
>> Please DO NOT reply to the List. Please address all replies to me at 
>> Dawn@reddawn.net.
>>
>> Please leave the H-COST header intact in your reply so your message does 
>> not end up in the spam-trap.
>>
>>
>> _What we're doing. _
>>
>> We will be exchanging small costume and sewing related gifts with each 
>> other. To participate you must sign up (below). There are rules, so that 
>> everybody knows what is expected of them, but I want this to be fun so I 
>> am keeping the rules simple. If you want to participate, please read this 
>> entire message.
>>
>> The Sign-up Deadline is November 1st. The Mailing Deadline is Dec.19th.
>>
>>
>> _The Rules._
>>
>> 1. You are responsible for completing your end of the exchange on time. 
>> Please be sure you can follow through on your committment.
>>
>> 2. Gifts should be sewing or costume related. Gifts may be hand-made for 
>> the recipient, or purchased, or may be items you already have. Gifts 
>> should be clean and in good condition and suitable for giving. You will 
>> be given guidelines to help you choose a gift for your recipient.
>>
>> 3. Gifts should be in the $10-$15 US range, and no more than that. (8-12 
>> euros). It's ok if you can get something on sale or make something from 
>> supplies you already have. Second-hand books in good condition are ok. We 
>> all know how many desireable but out-of-print titles are out there.
>>
>> 4. Plan to mail your gift in early to mid December. Remember that it will 
>> cost you postage on top of what you spent on the gift. Small and 
>> lightweight objects are generally cheaper to mail. If you are mailing 
>> overseas you may have to fill out a Customs Declaration.
>>
>> 5. After the sign-up period I will create a mailing list for all 
>> participants so that I can stay in touch with you and send reminders. 
>> Email should be addressed to me, or to this list and not to H-Cost.
>>
>> 6. Each person who joins will be randomly matched up with one person they 
>> will send a gift to. Additionally, someone else will send a gift to you. 
>> For example, Ann will send to Bob. Bob will send to Clara. Clara will 
>> send to Ann. This way each person will meet two H-Costumers by giving and 
>> receiving. You will know who you are sending to, but not who is sending 
>> to you.
>>
>>
>> _Join Now!_
>>
>> 1. To join you must send me your name and mailing address. Please reply 
>> to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list. The sign-up period 
>> ends November 1st.
>>
>> 2. Introduce yourself. Tell me a little bit about you, your family, your 
>> pets, what you do -- as much as you feel comfortable sharing. It's been 
>> suggested that you include your dress size.
>>
>> 3. Tell me some of your Favorite Things. What do you sew? What time 
>> period or place interests you? Is there a favorite technique or process 
>> that you enjoy? (weaving, dyeing, embroidery, etc.) Do you have a 
>> favorite color or theme?
>>
>> 4. If you live outside the US and know your Duty limit, please include 
>> it. If you are within the US and do not wish to mail to another country, 
>> please let me know.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that about covers it. If you have questions or concerns, please 
>> reply to me at dawn@reddawn.net and NOT to the H-Cost list.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dawn
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From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 12:15:40 -0500
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1530-40 is 5-15 years after my personal cut-off period, but a lot of what 
I've learned studying pre-1525 stuff carries over, so hopefully I can help a 
little.

<lots of snips>
> Mary Tudor by unknown (wedding portrait to Charles Brandon), 1515 - 
> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/marytudor.jpg
> - What I want to take from this is the french hood, despite the fact that 
> you don't see many french hoods in portraits until nearly 1540.  Anne 
> Boleyn was already active in court before 1530, and this portrait was from 
> 1515, so I'm assuming it was definitely there.  I like this shape, as 
> opposed to the transitional angled one I see in portraits around 1530, 
> like the portraits of the More family or Anne Cresacre.

This sort of French hood was all over the place in western Europe starting 
around 1500; if you study the paintings you can see it developing from 
half-circle and tailored veils with a flipped-back edge, over increasingly 
decorative coifs. Anne de Bretagne, who seems to have been the fashion-plate 
of the continent, wore a dizzying variety of them, but died about 15 years 
before your time.  However, they're still worn in the 1530s--a couple of the 
miniatures of Anne Boylen of the early-mid 1530s, for example, show her 
wearing a French hood. She's credited with popularizing them in England, so 
as long as you're planning an outfit from the time after Anne Boylen 
returned from France, you're golden; they start popping up all over the 
place in England then. (Although Mary and Margaret Tudor wore them long 
before AB.)  In other words, while the gable hood may have been a little 
more popular for a while, the French hood was definitely fashionable enough 
to be worn by the rich & noble of the 1530s.

And speaking of French hoods, there was a discussion of them here recently. 
You may want to visit the archives and search for it--it couldn't have been 
more than a few months ago, and 'french hoods' was in the title.  And since 
I think I forgot to post about it at the time: everything I've ever seen 
supports the idea that the top of the French hood did NOT stick up like a 
sun visor worn funny, but rather laid pretty much flat against the head.  Or 
at least, it only stuck up in the way that any flat thing wrapped around 
something vaguely spherical would.

> Lady Guildford by Holbein, 1527 - 
> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/guildford.jpg
> - I like the fact that she's not a wisp of a woman.  I like the look of 
> the foldback sleeves matching the rest of the gown, even though it is 
> plain, and I might end up using the idea of using a brocade trim around 
> the dress in case my time or budget won't accommodate the jewels.  I also 
> like the pleated false sleeves in that iridescent fabric (especially in 
> that it isn't tapestry).  Is that cloth of gold?  It doesn't appear that 
> her gown has a split skirt.  I also like her paternoster (could that be 
> red coral?).

Lucky me--this portrait lives about 45 minutes away, so I got to go study 
it.  I was very disappointed to find out that the black parts on the 
portrait are really, really black--you can see more light/dark detail on the 
dress in that picture that you posted than on the portrait itself.  (That 
doesn't mean that the detail the web image shows doesn't exist; the detail 
just stands out clearer in that image than on the portrait itself.)

The false sleeves didn't look like cloth of gold to me; they were a plain, 
non-iridescent copper made out of some sort of ribbed silk, like faille. 
The painted detail of the fabric's ribs is what makes it look iridescent at 
a distance, and the fabric definitely has that silk sheen to it.  The 
opening at the bottom of the false sleeve is held together with self-fabric 
ties.  I couldn't tell what the paternoster was made of; it looked most to 
me like painted wood!  I couldn't detect any sign of a split skirt; I 
couldn't detect any sign of a waist seam either (which is what I really 
wanted to learn by studying it in person) but that could have easily been 
obscured by the dark paint or by her arms. The lining of the turned-back 
sleeves could have been a dark fur, or velvet--they look too black to be a 
natural fur color, but fur was dyed at that period; however, I remember 
thinking that they could have been velvet, even though the pile would be 
longer than I'd expect of 1527 velvet.  That trim at the neckline, by the 
way, is almost certainly a trim on either her undergown or her chemise; 
notice that the sprig of herbs at her neckline goes between the dress and 
the trim. The only other thing I can think of about this portrait off the 
top of my head is that the white puffs of fabric poking through the sleeves 
look a lot sheerer on the portrait itself than in any of the web images I've 
seen of it; they could even be of the same super-sheer fabric as the edging 
of the chemise.

> Undergarments:
> My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a 
> farthingale.  I've read opinions that say yes you need them and I've read 
> opinions that say no, you can live with a stiffly lined bodice and a 
> petticoat(s) and that evidence in wardrobe accounts didn't show these 
> undergarments until after 1540-1550.  If I can avoid the corset and 
> farthingale with period justification, I would be thrilled, as this would 
> cut a week off the project.  I'm a size 28/30 woman (depends on the 
> clothing) with only a C cup chest, so breast support is not something I 
> have a great need for, but I do have a couple of fat rolls at my sides. 
> Is this an automatic "make a corset" proposition then?  I think my 
> canvas-lined Venetians did very well for a smooth line when they fit 
> (they're both currently too loose to provide any support) and I will have 
> two gown layers.  Anyone here have any experiences with plus-sized late 
> period garb and corsets or the lack thereof?

Studying corsets and their origins is another one of my passions, and I can 
tell you with as much certainty as I dare muster about anything without 
access to a time machine that they did notnotnot NOT use corsets at this 
point.  The bodice of the gown (or the undergown, or both) was stiffened 
using various techniques, including canvas and buckram. This is true well 
into the Elizabethan era, and the 'Tudor corset' (read: pre-Eliz) as we know 
it is a complete fallacy!  I haven't looked into the subject of farthingales 
too much, but 'hoopes from the wast douneward' were mentioned in England as 
early as 1519.  However, you can certainly get the look of the portraits 
without a farthingale if you use a relatively stiff fabric in your 
undergown.

> I have my Italian chemise, but the sleeves are very full, so I will likely 
> have to make a new one.  I plan on using Drea Leed's smock generator, 
> unless I find something better.  I've heard something about the sleeves 
> being off, so I'll have to do a mockup first since I've never used her 
> generator.  There's also a basic low-necked smock pattern on 
> vertetsable.com, but it doesn't use any gores so I'm not sure on its 
> authenticity.

I don't know too much about the chemises of this era, but I can tell you 
that it's perfectly accurate to have chemises without gores at this point in 
time.  In fact, looking at the extant chemises in my image collection, it's 
rarer to HAVE gores than not.  Vertetsable is generally a pretty reliable, 
accuracy-minded resource, so if I didn't have enough time to do the research 
myself I'd be willing to go with her pattern.

I'll snip off the rest of the post and quit here, as most of the rest is 
about ways and means to get the look.  There's just so many ways and so 
little known for sure about how they did it!

For images, though, I'll mention some places you probably already know 
about, just in case you don't.

The first place I generally look for something:
http://www.wga.hu

Next, the ever-popular bildindex:
http://www.bildindex.de
I'd suggest searching by artist--click kunstler, then at the left type in 
part of the artist's last name--or by date.  To search by date, click Suche 
at the top, then fill in the form as follows: click the second radio button 
at the top, then put in your beginning and end dates for the search. Go to 
the rightmost-column below that, and find the blank that's labelled 'ikon. 
Kontext:'.  To the right of the blank you'll see a little menu icon; click 
on that and pick one of the following: geschichte (history; includes tons of 
portraits) or mensch (people).  Otherwise, you'll get images of tons of 
buildings and it'll take forever to weed through them. Finally, press 'Suche 
starten'; a list of the number of results for each search parameter will 
show up, with a link to 'Galerie' at the very bottom.  Click this and you'll 
get to see the actual pictures.

And finally, one of my new favorites:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/
The search utility here isn't anywhere near as good as bildindex's, but it's 
got a lot of great paintings.  Click 'recherche' at the top to do a search. 
The dating info on this website makes it hard to pick a date range, but if 
you're patient you'll find some great paintings.  Of course, the paintings 
are largely French, but you can get some useful details nonetheless; the 
French hoods, if nothing else, are very similar to what was worn in England. 
I'd suggest doing a search for Corneille de Lyon (you'll get an option of 
him or of his atelier; look at both) as you'll find some great, detailed 
portraits from around the right time period.

Hope this helps.

-E House 

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Beautiful!
And thank you for posting your sources. I had never heard of Hedgehog
Handiworks. I checked them out and found they had decorative pewter lacers
which would go well on costumes like this one.

http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor3.html

Thank you,
De

-----Original Message-----
Well, i know i said i had to waite with this till when i have finished the
yellow dress, but i could not resist my lust to try out the mulberry silk
threads i got.
This is going to be a dark grey gentlemans embroidered waistcoat of 1770ies.
It is vey hard to trace pattern to dark fabric, so i used my rice paper,
reversed the pattern and sticked it to the backside of the taffeta. Then i
used white sewingthread and small running stitches to outline the whole
pattern. This worked fine, but it took some time to do.
Here is one pattern repeat of the pattern. At the bottom of the page;
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/herreveste..htm

Bjarne


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            Thought some of you might be interested in this link,
particularly Bjarne who might be interested to note the gentleman's
suit, particularly the dark waistcoat.
 
Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
 
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holiday Gift Exchange -REMINDER
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On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Dawn wrote:

> Just a reminder to folks who want to participate. The sign-up deadline 
> is Tuesday, November 1st.
> 
> If you have not sent me your mailing address and introduction (see 
> below) you are not signed up.

Which means all the people who said "Sure, count me in" during the
discussion thread are *not* in till they fill out the form ;-)

--Robin
(sent mine today)

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Bjarne,
 
I am always stunned by the beauty of your embroidery work. Your waistcoat is going to be fabulous!
 
Annette M

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:25:41 +0200
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" 
Subject: [h-cost] grey waistcoat embroidery


Well, i know i said i had to waite with this till when i have finished the
yellow dress, but i could not resist my lust to try out the mulberry silk
threads i got.
This is going to be a dark grey gentlemans embroidered waistcoat of 1770ies.
It is vey hard to trace pattern to dark fabric, so i used my rice paper,
reversed the pattern and sticked it to the backside of the taffeta. Then i
used white sewingthread and small running stitches to outline the whole
pattern. This worked fine, but it took some time to do.
Here is one pattern repeat of the pattern. At the bottom of the page;
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/herreveste..htm

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 

		
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi Lorina,
Wich website were you talking about? You didnt post any URL.
Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [h-cost] vintage textiles


>            Thought some of you might be interested in this link,
> particularly Bjarne who might be interested to note the gentleman's
> suit, particularly the dark waistcoat.
> 
> Regards,
> Lorina
> Five Rivers Chapmanry
> purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
> re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
> 519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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How in the heck did anyone manage to order this book from Amazon?  I have tried every way I know (and I have been buying from Amazon since they started) and I can not get them to acknowledge such a book is ever going to exist.  Thanks for any help you can give me.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


--- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:

From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:51:33 -0500 (CDT)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report


Today I hold in my hands the page proofs of Medieval Clothing & Textiles,
volume 2! For those who are interested, the contents of vol. 2 are listed
here:

http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

There are eight papers, covering (as always) a range of periods, places,
and disciplines. Costumers will want to take a close look especially if
you have interests in any of these topics:

-- Early Irish dress -- although the paper focuses on a particular
literary description, it has extensive discussion of archaeological finds
and artworks, and the footnotes provide a pretty good summary of the state
of research in this area

-- 13th/14th century French cloth trade, terms, and availability

-- 15th/16th century textile cleaning methods (by h-coster Drea Leed)

-- Renaissance "flea furs" -- this highly comprehensive study is loaded
with primary citations, and will stand as THE definitive piece of research
on this subject

-- Elizabethan/Jacobean embroidered jackets (by h-coster Danielle
Nunn-Weinberg)

There's more, too.

You can pre-order at the Boydell site (URL above), or through Amazon
(sizable discount at the moment).

Papers for Volume 3 are rolling in; we have some really good names and
topics, but I can't tell you what yet!

--Robin
(feel free to forward this message in its entirety)

==========================================================
Robin Netherton 
Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles
robin@nightowl.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Lalah wrote:

> How in the heck did anyone manage to order this book from Amazon?  I
> have tried every way I know (and I have been buying from Amazon since
> they started) and I can not get them to acknowledge such a book is
> ever going to exist.  Thanks for any help you can give me.

That's odd ... there are pages at Amazon for both volume 1 and the
forthcoming volume 2 (search under my name). Are you ordering from the
page they have for it? And it's not accepting the order?

--Robin

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From: Lalah <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report
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Actually, I searched for the name of the book and did get vol. 1, but nothing on vol. 2.  I will try with you name.  Hope it works, but if it doesn't I can always get it from the publisher (just would rather save a buck or two).  Thanks

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


--- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:

From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:28:30 -0500 (CDT)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] MCT vol. 2, progress report


On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Lalah wrote:

> How in the heck did anyone manage to order this book from Amazon?  I
> have tried every way I know (and I have been buying from Amazon since
> they started) and I can not get them to acknowledge such a book is
> ever going to exist.  Thanks for any help you can give me.

That's odd ... there are pages at Amazon for both volume 1 and the
forthcoming volume 2 (search under my name). Are you ordering from the
page they have for it? And it's not accepting the order?

--Robin

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Thanks Robin, That worked and I have pre-ordered it.  Can't wait till it gets here.  I love volume 1.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender




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On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Lalah wrote:

> Actually, I searched for the name of the book and did get vol. 1, but
> nothing on vol. 2.  I will try with you name.  Hope it works, but if
> it doesn't I can always get it from the publisher (just would rather
> save a buck or two).  Thanks

Here's the link again. You'll save more than a couple of bucks...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1843832038

--Robin

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From: Cin <cinbarnes@gmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holiday Gift Exchange -REMINDER
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> Just a reminder to folks who want to participate. The sign-up deadline
> is Tuesday, November 1st.
> If you have not sent me your mailing address and introduction (see
> below) you are not signed up.

Curious: when are you going to tell us who our surprise recepient will be?

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com

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Cin wrote:

>>Just a reminder to folks who want to participate. The sign-up deadline
>>is Tuesday, November 1st.
>>If you have not sent me your mailing address and introduction (see
>>below) you are not signed up.
> 
> 
> Curious: when are you going to tell us who our surprise recepient will be?
> 

I'll send confirmations to everyone on Monday night, do a Last Call on 
Tuesday, and then send out the names late Tuesday or Wednesday during 
the day.


Dawn


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Thank you all who sent your well wishes. I've been a busy mom, but very 
happy to do so even with some sleep deprivation.

Kimiko

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I"m about to send this book back to the UGA library (ya gotta love
InterLibrary Loan!).  Not only does it have an enormous collection of
paintings that I've never seen before, it also has a picture of, well,
a sweater.

Figure cption reads "Women's camicola or knitted jacket.  First quarter
of seventeenth century.  Florence, Museo Stibbert.

"Camicola knitted in red and gold silk, made my male professionals. 
This type of garment, already present in Eleanora's wardrobe, is
recorded with increasing frequency in the documents of the second half
of the century."

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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At 10:15 AM 10/29/2005, you wrote:
>And speaking of French hoods, there was a discussion of them here recently.


I have a site on French hoods, or more specifically, on portraits of women 
wearing French hoods (and early hoods) listed by decade.
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/FrenchHood

I would post more on this topic, but am currently busy with baby needs. I 
will post more thoughts later.

Kimiko


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Subject: [h-cost] Corset-wearers required for Interview. Posted with
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Hello to all,

my name is Bella. I am doing a BA at Monash University, Melbourne (Australia) as an off-campus (online) student.

For my current journalism topic (feature writing) I am working on the last assignment. I have chosen to write a feature on the corset as it is today.

I have the article planned, outlined, and ready to write, but a feature article is no good without quotes. To this end I would love to hear from anyone who wears one - irrespective of how long you have worn one, how often you wear one, what type you wear and for what reason (re-enactment, medical, club or fetish - any reason at all is fine - I want as many different reasons for wearing a corset as possible! Tightlacers included!), and even whether you are male or female (I know that there are guys who wear them, and I'm totally open-minded).

The e-mail interview will be very simple and should take you no longer than twenty minutes - I expect at this stage to ask five questions only. You can answer as briefly as you like, but fuller answers will make me smile bigger. :-)

This work is to be submitted to my unit adviser alone - only she and I will read it. In addition anyone I quote will be identified by 'name, age, and city (or country if outside Australia)' ONLY. For example:

As regards to fetish wear Mary, 35, who lives in the US, says that..."..."

If you are interested please send an e-mail to me at this address (Please DO NOT reply on list) and I will send you the questions. I would be happy to send anyone who wants one a copy of the article as soon as I have heard back from my unit adviser, which should be in the second last to last week of November.

Thank you for reading, I hope to hear from you!


 

Bella




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 Hmmm, perhaps look at portraits of Prince Albert, or
Charles Dickens?
 Or how about the American President of that time
frame?
 our fashions were probably close to England's at he
time.
 Just a thought.....
--- Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:

> Does anybody know the size and shape of a man's
> cravat c. 1889? Were men 
> even wearing cravats at this time? I'm trying to
> find images of men's 
> outwear and not having a lot of luck at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 



	
		
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E House wrote:

> 1530-40 is 5-15 years after my personal cut-off period, but a lot of 
> what I've learned studying pre-1525 stuff carries over, so hopefully I 
> can help a little.
>
> <lots of snips>
>
>> Mary Tudor by unknown (wedding portrait to Charles Brandon), 1515 - 
>> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/marytudor.jpg
>> - What I want to take from this is the french hood, despite the fact 
>> that you don't see many french hoods in portraits until nearly 1540.  
>> Anne Boleyn was already active in court before 1530, and this 
>> portrait was from 1515, so I'm assuming it was definitely there.  I 
>> like this shape, as opposed to the transitional angled one I see in 
>> portraits around 1530, like the portraits of the More family or Anne 
>> Cresacre.
>
>
> This sort of French hood was all over the place in western Europe 
> starting around 1500; if you study the paintings you can see it 
> developing from half-circle and tailored veils with a flipped-back 
> edge, over increasingly decorative coifs. Anne de Bretagne, who seems 
> to have been the fashion-plate of the continent, wore a dizzying 
> variety of them, but died about 15 years before your time.  However, 
> they're still worn in the 1530s--a couple of the miniatures of Anne 
> Boylen of the early-mid 1530s, for example, show her wearing a French 
> hood. She's credited with popularizing them in England, so as long as 
> you're planning an outfit from the time after Anne Boylen returned 
> from France, you're golden; they start popping up all over the place 
> in England then. (Although Mary and Margaret Tudor wore them long 
> before AB.)  In other words, while the gable hood may have been a 
> little more popular for a while, the French hood was definitely 
> fashionable enough to be worn by the rich & noble of the 1530s.
>
> And speaking of French hoods, there was a discussion of them here 
> recently. You may want to visit the archives and search for it--it 
> couldn't have been more than a few months ago, and 'french hoods' was 
> in the title.  And since I think I forgot to post about it at the 
> time: everything I've ever seen supports the idea that the top of the 
> French hood did NOT stick up like a sun visor worn funny, but rather 
> laid pretty much flat against the head.  Or at least, it only stuck up 
> in the way that any flat thing wrapped around something vaguely 
> spherical would.

Thank you.  I dimly remember that discussion - I will have to go back 
and find it.

>> Lady Guildford by Holbein, 1527 - 
>> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/guildford.jpg
>> - I like the fact that she's not a wisp of a woman.  I like the look 
>> of the foldback sleeves matching the rest of the gown, even though it 
>> is plain, and I might end up using the idea of using a brocade trim 
>> around the dress in case my time or budget won't accommodate the 
>> jewels.  I also like the pleated false sleeves in that iridescent 
>> fabric (especially in that it isn't tapestry).  Is that cloth of 
>> gold?  It doesn't appear that her gown has a split skirt.  I also 
>> like her paternoster (could that be red coral?).
>
> Lucky me--this portrait lives about 45 minutes away, so I got to go 
> study it.  I was very disappointed to find out that the black parts on 
> the portrait are really, really black--you can see more light/dark 
> detail on the dress in that picture that you posted than on the 
> portrait itself.  (That doesn't mean that the detail the web image 
> shows doesn't exist; the detail just stands out clearer in that image 
> than on the portrait itself.)
>
> The false sleeves didn't look like cloth of gold to me; they were a 
> plain, non-iridescent copper made out of some sort of ribbed silk, 
> like faille. The painted detail of the fabric's ribs is what makes it 
> look iridescent at a distance, and the fabric definitely has that silk 
> sheen to it.  The opening at the bottom of the false sleeve is held 
> together with self-fabric ties.  I couldn't tell what the paternoster 
> was made of; it looked most to me like painted wood!  I couldn't 
> detect any sign of a split skirt; I couldn't detect any sign of a 
> waist seam either (which is what I really wanted to learn by studying 
> it in person) but that could have easily been obscured by the dark 
> paint or by her arms. The lining of the turned-back sleeves could have 
> been a dark fur, or velvet--they look too black to be a natural fur 
> color, but fur was dyed at that period; however, I remember thinking 
> that they could have been velvet, even though the pile would be longer 
> than I'd expect of 1527 velvet.  That trim at the neckline, by the 
> way, is almost certainly a trim on either her undergown or her 
> chemise; notice that the sprig of herbs at her neckline goes between 
> the dress and the trim. The only other thing I can think of about this 
> portrait off the top of my head is that the white puffs of fabric 
> poking through the sleeves look a lot sheerer on the portrait itself 
> than in any of the web images I've seen of it; they could even be of 
> the same super-sheer fabric as the edging of the chemise.

Are the sleeves truly ribbed?  When I look at it, the ribs just look 
like the folds from pleating to me.  I'll have to look again when my 
eyes aren't so tired.

I'm pretty sure it the rosary was red coral - it's too orangy to be ruby 
and red coral was one of the favorite expensive materials.  Too bad the 
real stuff today is still expensive and I haven't found the substitute 
dyed coral in large enough beads yet (especially not as large as hers 
are pictured).
 
So do you think that the turn-back sleeves are a different material 
then?  I thought it looked the same as her gown fabric, but that's the 
problem with black.  I've since seen a few more images of turn-back 
sleeves matching the overgown, but they're of a later date.  I think I'm 
going to go ahead and plan to do it that way.

>> Undergarments:
>> My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a 
>> farthingale.  I've read opinions that say yes you need them and I've 
>> read opinions that say no, you can live with a stiffly lined bodice 
>> and a petticoat(s) and that evidence in wardrobe accounts didn't show 
>> these undergarments until after 1540-1550.  If I can avoid the corset 
>> and farthingale with period justification, I would be thrilled, as 
>> this would cut a week off the project.  I'm a size 28/30 woman 
>> (depends on the clothing) with only a C cup chest, so breast support 
>> is not something I have a great need for, but I do have a couple of 
>> fat rolls at my sides. Is this an automatic "make a corset" 
>> proposition then?  I think my canvas-lined Venetians did very well 
>> for a smooth line when they fit (they're both currently too loose to 
>> provide any support) and I will have two gown layers.  Anyone here 
>> have any experiences with plus-sized late period garb and corsets or 
>> the lack thereof?
>
>
> Studying corsets and their origins is another one of my passions, and 
> I can tell you with as much certainty as I dare muster about anything 
> without access to a time machine that they did notnotnot NOT use 
> corsets at this point.  The bodice of the gown (or the undergown, or 
> both) was stiffened using various techniques, including canvas and 
> buckram. This is true well into the Elizabethan era, and the 'Tudor 
> corset' (read: pre-Eliz) as we know it is a complete fallacy!  I 
> haven't looked into the subject of farthingales too much, but 'hoopes 
> from the wast douneward' were mentioned in England as early as 1519.  
> However, you can certainly get the look of the portraits without a 
> farthingale if you use a relatively stiff fabric in your undergown.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for confirming my greatest hope.  Now 
more about the stiffening - how would I construct this?  My Italian 
dresses have a layer of canvas on the inside with the fashion fabric on 
the outside (no lining).  Is this enough, or should I be planning for 
more?  I think I would prefer canvas because it would be a little easier 
to clean when that time comes, I think.

>> I have my Italian chemise, but the sleeves are very full, so I will 
>> likely have to make a new one.  I plan on using Drea Leed's smock 
>> generator, unless I find something better.  I've heard something 
>> about the sleeves being off, so I'll have to do a mockup first since 
>> I've never used her generator.  There's also a basic low-necked smock 
>> pattern on vertetsable.com, but it doesn't use any gores so I'm not 
>> sure on its authenticity.
>
>
> I don't know too much about the chemises of this era, but I can tell 
> you that it's perfectly accurate to have chemises without gores at 
> this point in time.  In fact, looking at the extant chemises in my 
> image collection, it's rarer to HAVE gores than not.  Vertetsable is 
> generally a pretty reliable, accuracy-minded resource, so if I didn't 
> have enough time to do the research myself I'd be willing to go with 
> her pattern.

Really?  That's odd.  Is there anywhere online with those pictures or 
patterns of the chemises?  I can only remember one 16th or 17th C 
chemise with blackwork offhand in Cut My Cote, which I'm not sure where 
it is at the moment.  Would the the sleeves of the chemise be poufy or 
tapered (I thought vertetsable's was tapered)?  At first I thought the 
poufs of chemise escaping the false sleeves were fake and their chemise 
sleeves were tapered, now I don't, but who knows, maybe they still are - 
I've never had a lot of luck with forcing poufs to stay poufed out with 
my Italian sleeves.

> I'll snip off the rest of the post and quit here, as most of the rest 
> is about ways and means to get the look.  There's just so many ways 
> and so little known for sure about how they did it!
>
> For images, though, I'll mention some places you probably already know 
> about, just in case you don't.
>
> The first place I generally look for something:
> http://www.wga.hu
>
> Next, the ever-popular bildindex:
> http://www.bildindex.de
> I'd suggest searching by artist--click kunstler, then at the left type 
> in part of the artist's last name--or by date.  To search by date, 
> click Suche at the top, then fill in the form as follows: click the 
> second radio button at the top, then put in your beginning and end 
> dates for the search. Go to the rightmost-column below that, and find 
> the blank that's labelled 'ikon. Kontext:'.  To the right of the blank 
> you'll see a little menu icon; click on that and pick one of the 
> following: geschichte (history; includes tons of portraits) or mensch 
> (people).  Otherwise, you'll get images of tons of buildings and it'll 
> take forever to weed through them. Finally, press 'Suche starten'; a 
> list of the number of results for each search parameter will show up, 
> with a link to 'Galerie' at the very bottom.  Click this and you'll 
> get to see the actual pictures.
>
> And finally, one of my new favorites:
> http://www.photo.rmn.fr/
> The search utility here isn't anywhere near as good as bildindex's, 
> but it's got a lot of great paintings.  Click 'recherche' at the top 
> to do a search. The dating info on this website makes it hard to pick 
> a date range, but if you're patient you'll find some great paintings.  
> Of course, the paintings are largely French, but you can get some 
> useful details nonetheless; the French hoods, if nothing else, are 
> very similar to what was worn in England. I'd suggest doing a search 
> for Corneille de Lyon (you'll get an option of him or of his atelier; 
> look at both) as you'll find some great, detailed portraits from 
> around the right time period.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -E House

Thank you so much for the advice and the links.  I hope to be able to 
consult you later if I have any questions.

-- 
Elinor Salter
Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra

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Subject: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
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You may also like this one (a bit later) at the Victoria and Albert Museum
http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=&submit-button=search&search-form=main/index.html

Object Jacket
Date ca. 1625-1650
Techniques Hand-knitted in silk and silver-gilt wrapped silk, and lined 
with linen
Place London, England (possibly) Italy (possibly)
Dimensions Height 61 cm
Width 115 cm (with sleeves)
Museum Number 807-1904

The book "Moda a Firenze 1540-1580" is wonderful. I have really enjoyed my 
copy.

I've been thinking of adding:
Bronzino by Maurice Brock 360 pages Flammarion (November 16, 2002) ISBN: 
208010877
to my collection of portrait painters. Has anyone seen this book?

Beth

At 04:49 AM 10/30/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 15:52:44 -0500
>From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
>To: Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <20051029155244.ins4334y8db4cgg0@www.goldsword.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I"m about to send this book back to the UGA library (ya gotta love
>InterLibrary Loan!).  Not only does it have an enormous collection of
>paintings that I've never seen before, it also has a picture of, well,
>a sweater.
>
>Figure cption reads "Women's camicola or knitted jacket.  First quarter
>of seventeenth century.  Florence, Museo Stibbert.
>
>"Camicola knitted in red and gold silk, made my male professionals.
>This type of garment, already present in Eleanora's wardrobe, is
>recorded with increasing frequency in the documents of the second half
>of the century."
>
>Susan

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] So you want to be Jack the Ripper...
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Re cravats...
There is a volume by Doriece Colle "Collars, Stocks and Cravats"; White
Lions Pub, 1972 that might help.
The one she illustrates closest to your time period is as follows:
"Ascot suspended from a string tie, c.1875-c.1875"
Usually one wide strip of silk forms the whole ascot.  A two piece style
like this would accommodate a turnover collar."
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Melody Watts" <celticredhead2002@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] So you want to be Jack the Ripper...


>
>  Hmmm, perhaps look at portraits of Prince Albert, or
> Charles Dickens?
>  Or how about the American President of that time
> frame?
>  our fashions were probably close to England's at he
> time.
>  Just a thought.....
> --- Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:
>
> > Does anybody know the size and shape of a man's
> > cravat c. 1889? Were men
> > even wearing cravats at this time? I'm trying to
> > find images of men's
> > outwear and not having a lot of luck at the moment.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dawn
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
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I have the Bronzino book, which is an excellent book, if you are
specializing in the period it covers. However, it is mostly about painting.
If you are interested in that, great. If you are looking for new costume
plates, I think that you will be disappointed. Most of the pictures in the
book have been reproduced elsewhere and frequently, at that. If you have the
portraits already and don't care for the painterly stuff... well, then
buying it is up to you. I remember it to be pretty expensive.

Regards-
Dame Catriona MacDuff



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 8:42 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze 1540-1580


You may also like this one (a bit later) at the Victoria and Albert Museum
http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=&submit-button=searc
h&search-form=main/index.html

Object Jacket
Date ca. 1625-1650
Techniques Hand-knitted in silk and silver-gilt wrapped silk, and lined
with linen
Place London, England (possibly) Italy (possibly)
Dimensions Height 61 cm
Width 115 cm (with sleeves)
Museum Number 807-1904

The book "Moda a Firenze 1540-1580" is wonderful. I have really enjoyed my
copy.

I've been thinking of adding:
Bronzino by Maurice Brock 360 pages Flammarion (November 16, 2002) ISBN:
208010877
to my collection of portrait painters. Has anyone seen this book?

Beth

At 04:49 AM 10/30/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 15:52:44 -0500
>From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
>To: Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <20051029155244.ins4334y8db4cgg0@www.goldsword.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I"m about to send this book back to the UGA library (ya gotta love
>InterLibrary Loan!).  Not only does it have an enormous collection of
>paintings that I've never seen before, it also has a picture of, well,
>a sweater.
>
>Figure cption reads "Women's camicola or knitted jacket.  First quarter
>of seventeenth century.  Florence, Museo Stibbert.
>
>"Camicola knitted in red and gold silk, made my male professionals.
>This type of garment, already present in Eleanora's wardrobe, is
>recorded with increasing frequency in the documents of the second half
>of the century."
>
>Susan

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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
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Subject: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze
	1540-1580
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Quoting Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net>:


>
> I've been thinking of adding:
> Bronzino by Maurice Brock 360 pages Flammarion (November 16, 2002) 
> ISBN: 208010877
> to my collection of portrait painters. Has anyone seen this book?
>
> Beth

Don't know a thing about it, but it sounds like something that I would
be interested in.  Bronzino (and Carpaccio) is one of my favorite
artists -- next to the ladies, of course  :-)

Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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At 02:48 AM 10/30/2005, you wrote:
>E House wrote:
>
>[big snip]
>I'm pretty sure it the rosary was red coral - it's too orangy to be 
>ruby and red coral was one of the favorite expensive materials.  Too 
>bad the real stuff today is still expensive and I haven't found the 
>substitute dyed coral in large enough beads yet (especially not as 
>large as hers are pictured).
>So do you think that the turn-back sleeves are a different material 
>then?  I thought it looked the same as her gown fabric, but that's 
>the problem with black.  I've since seen a few more images of 
>turn-back sleeves matching the overgown, but they're of a later 
>date.  I think I'm going to go ahead and plan to do it that way.
>[big snip]
>--
>Elinor Salter
>Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra

I've seen large red coral beads (dyed, of course) in my Fire Mountain 
Gems catalog.  You might try starting at this web site: 
http://www.firemountaingems.com/specials/CW051022H.htm?WT.mc_id=CW051029H 
They are not too expensive.  What size are you trying for?


Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 

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Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:25:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze 
	1540-1580
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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> Quoting Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net>:
>
>
>>
>> I've been thinking of adding:
>> Bronzino by Maurice Brock 360 pages Flammarion (November 16, 2002)
>> ISBN: 208010877
>> to my collection of portrait painters. Has anyone seen this book?
>>
>> Beth
>
> Don't know a thing about it, but it sounds like something that I would
> be interested in.  Bronzino (and Carpaccio) is one of my favorite
> artists -- next to the ladies, of course  :-)

My favorite Bronzino book (and they have a Carpaccio one, too) is by "The
Library of Great Masters" series.  They are printed by the Riverside Book
Company.  They are about 8 1/2" by 11" and softcover but have nice, big
color reproductions of the paintings.  They are about art, but the
pictures are very nice quality.  For example, you can see that Laura
Battiferri's dress is brown and black, not just all black (those who know
this painting, will know what I mean!)

The Bronzino ISBN is  1-878351-52-4
The Carpaccio ISBN is 0-09-470170-9
And they have other good painters as well....

Hope that helps!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a
	Firenze1540-1580
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The lower sleeves are deep maroon in most of the repros I have seen. It is
funny that so many color reproductions vary in quality from place to place.
Anybody ever see the real portrait up close and personal? And BTW, the lower
sleeves (which tie into the armhole BTW, on the Lucrezia Panciatichi  gown
are eggplant purple (aubergine). Makes for the possibility of interesting
color combos for costumers who do early 16th C. Florentine...
Dame Catriona MacDuff

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Diana Habra
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:25 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a
Firenze1540-1580



> Quoting Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@alltel.net>:
>
>
>>
>> I've been thinking of adding:
>> Bronzino by Maurice Brock 360 pages Flammarion (November 16, 2002)
>> ISBN: 208010877
>> to my collection of portrait painters. Has anyone seen this book?
>>
>> Beth
>
> Don't know a thing about it, but it sounds like something that I would
> be interested in.  Bronzino (and Carpaccio) is one of my favorite
> artists -- next to the ladies, of course  :-)

My favorite Bronzino book (and they have a Carpaccio one, too) is by "The
Library of Great Masters" series.  They are printed by the Riverside Book
Company.  They are about 8 1/2" by 11" and softcover but have nice, big
color reproductions of the paintings.  They are about art, but the
pictures are very nice quality.  For example, you can see that Laura
Battiferri's dress is brown and black, not just all black (those who know
this painting, will know what I mean!)

The Bronzino ISBN is  1-878351-52-4
The Carpaccio ISBN is 0-09-470170-9
And they have other good painters as well....

Hope that helps!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a
	Firenze1540-1580
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Quoting monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>:

> The lower sleeves are deep maroon in most of the repros I have seen. It is
> funny that so many color reproductions vary in quality from place to place.
> Anybody ever see the real portrait up close and personal? And BTW, the lower
> sleeves (which tie into the armhole BTW, on the Lucrezia Panciatichi  gown
> are eggplant purple (aubergine). Makes for the possibility of interesting
> color combos for costumers who do early 16th C. Florentine...
> Dame Catriona MacDuff
>

I knew that Laura's gown was brown and black (did you know that she was
a Famous Poet?) -- but how can you tell that the maroon lower sleeves
on Lucrezia's gown tie into the armhole?

Jerusha, the sleeve junkie
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Thank you for that information. It's what I needed to know. The book price 
isn't too bad (about $50), but what I'm looking for is a corpus of his 
portrait works with good color and resolution, so I think that I'll pass 
this one up. I have most of the paintings, but they're scattered around in 
many different books.

Beth Matney

At 01:00 PM 10/30/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:44:35 -0500
>From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
>Subject: RE: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
>
>I have the Bronzino book, which is an excellent book, if you are
>specializing in the period it covers. However, it is mostly about painting.
>If you are interested in that, great. If you are looking for new costume
>plates, I think that you will be disappointed. Most of the pictures in the
>book have been reproduced elsewhere and frequently, at that. If you have the
>portraits already and don't care for the painterly stuff... well, then
>buying it is up to you. I remember it to be pretty expensive.
>
>Regards-
>Dame Catriona MacDuff

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Thanks. I think I have the Carpaccio. I'll have to pick up a copy of the 
Bronzino.

Do you know of a good Antonis Mor van Dashorst (Sir Anthony More, Antonio 
Moro) volume? The only thing that I've found seems to be from 1934 
published by Nouvelle Societe d'Editions, Bruxelles.

Beth Matney

At 01:00 PM 10/30/2005, you wrote:

>My favorite Bronzino book (and they have a Carpaccio one, too) is by "The
>Library of Great Masters" series.  They are printed by the Riverside Book
>Company.  They are about 8 1/2" by 11" and softcover but have nice, big
>color reproductions of the paintings.  They are about art, but the
>pictures are very nice quality.  For example, you can see that Laura
>Battiferri's dress is brown and black, not just all black (those who know
>this painting, will know what I mean!)
>
>The Bronzino ISBN is  1-878351-52-4
>The Carpaccio ISBN is 0-09-470170-9
>And they have other good painters as well....
>
>Hope that helps!
>
>Diana

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	Well, that was particularly bright of me wasn't it? Not to post
the URL. Sigh.

	Here you go, Bjarne, and many apologies.

http://www.vintagetextile.com/early.htm

Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org

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Elinor Salter wrote:

 > I want to make a Tudor outfit for a 12th Night event in January, which
 > will be set in 1530's England.

Ah! A woman after my own heart!

 > Mary Tudor by unknown (wedding portrait to Charles Brandon), 1515 -
 > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/marytudor.jpg
 > - What I want to take from this is the french hood,

E House supplied a wonderful link: http://www.photo.rmn.fr/
(thank-you--hadn't seen this one before)
Search on Jean Clouet and you'll find tons of drawings of French hoods. 
They seem to wear them further back on the head than the English do, but 
that might just be the way these two artists, Clouet and Holbein, chose 
to deal with the tricky problems related to perspective.


 > Lady Guildford by Holbein, 1527 -
 > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/guildford.jpg
 > - I like the fact that she's not a wisp of a woman.  I like the look of
 > the foldback sleeves matching the rest of the gown, even though it is
 > plain, and I might end up using the idea of using a brocade trim around
 > the dress in case my time or budget won't accommodate the jewels.

I'm not sure if what we are seeing is embroidery or metal ornaments. 
Personally (strictly personal) I would go without any trim at all if it 
was a choice between that and brocade trim. The woven trims always seem 
later period to me.


  I
 > also like the pleated false sleeves in that iridescent fabric
 > (especially in that it isn't tapestry).  Is that cloth of gold?  It
 > doesn't appear that her gown has a split skirt.

I'd say plain silk taffeta. Holbein does tend to go overboard sometimes 
on sheen--one of his tricks for emphasizing virtu or status, perhaps 
(take for example the famous portrait of More with his impossible 
velvet!). For pleating ideas, check out the other portrait of Jane 
Seymour done by one of Holbein's studio painters. Her false sleeves are 
plain white silk, and her jewels are much simpler. There's also the 
full-length/back view portrait that looks awfully like Lady Guildford. 
(BTW she, or at least husband Henry, had an interesting history. I 
believe she was 27 when the portrait was painted.)

 >
 > Undergarments:
 > My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a
 > farthingale.

A fairly stiff petticoat, or maybe two, should be plenty. The "More 
girls" don't seem to have farthingales, nor does the "back view" sketch. 
Some kind of stiffening built into the undergown, beyond canvas, is 
probably necessary if you want to get the smooth line. The main thing 
here, though, is to make the waist high enough. It takes a dive in the 
40s, at least in the front, but in the 30s it seems pretty high. If you 
consider where the bend of Jane Seymour's elbow is it gives a good idea. 
If and when I get a chance to make another gown of this era I'd like to 
try cutting the front as a single neck to hem piece but make the back 
have a waist seam, then organ pleat the back skirt into it to get the 
rolls and fullness. I keep trying to think in non-modern draping terms 
instead of modern symetrical paper pattern terms. A smooth line in the 
front and fullness in the back could be achieved this way.

For fitting, if you use the center front opening/stomacher construction 
you'll be able to draw it in, but make sure you leave yourself a way to 
take in the center back. You'll need to do that to keep the upper 
arm/shoulder section from getting droopy. (I learned this the hard way 
when I made my Tudor then lost 20 pounds.)

 > Overdress:
 > I plan on using red cotton velvet or velveteen - I know velveteen would
 > be more within my budget, but I'm not sure of the overall look of it
 > yet.  Would it work well?  I would like for the foldback sleeves to be
 > the same color of the dress, as seen with Lady Guildford, but I don't
 > see many other examples like this until later.  Could this also be an
 > acceptable compromise for someone not of royalty?  The front of the
 > skirt will be split to show off the "good" fabric of the kirtle.  If I
 > have a train, it will only be a slight one.

Velveteen is kind of flimsy. Cotton velvet is nice but how about a nice 
wool? More authentic fiber even if getting the exact weave is a bit 
harder, and it was certainly the most common fabric. Some of the 
gabardine's work well (the worsted simple ones, not the tricotine ones). 
Several of the Holbein portraits show wool with either a very fine fur 
or maybe even velvet underside turned back for a cuff. In a good quality 
print that I've seen of the Lady Guildford portrait there appers to be a 
nap to the turnback sleeve.


Re: the poofs on the false sleeves/chemise question: though the jury is 
still out, using a fake undersleeve for the poofs seems logical, 
practical, and even authentic. There are places where the fabric of the 
poofs looks different from the fabric of the shift at the neckline. They 
would have had the same problems we have making the poofs stay poofed! 
Also, the tightness of the upper arm of the gown and the rectangular 
construction of shirts, mitigates against having a sufficient width to 
the lower shift sleeve to poof as it does in the portraits.

Anyway, sounds like it's going to be a wonderful gown! Can't wait to see 
the pics (hint, hint!)

- Hope
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Your favorite Art website "viewer"-sort of OT, sort of not.
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Hi guys, I'd like your input on something.   I know this is a little off 
topic, but I figure through your constant perusal of artwork for 
costuming purposes you will have had some experiences we could all 
benefit from!

A little background:  I am working on this project at Arizona State 
University (ASU):  Inside the Geesebook 
<http://www.public.asu.edu/%7Ecschleif/>
We are in the process of producing an interactive DVD with pages of the 
manuscript, music, videos of the church etc. 
I have been asked for some input on how I would like to view artwork 
online (actually on a DVD).  I have a few favorite places online which 
use "viewers" to look at either artwork or products for purchase.  I'd 
like to hear from you if you have a favorite place online which uses a 
veiwer you either really like (or really don't like) and maybe a few 
comments on what you like about it and what you don't.

Here are a few I like:

Frick Collection 
<http://collections.frick.org/CUS.18.zoomobject._1108$9613*576112>    
also see: http://www.zoomify.com/

Getty-Illuminations using zoomify 
<http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/flemish/theme_1b.html>               
(I like the overal presentation of information here too:  Overview 
<http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/flemish/theme_2b.html>)

Lowes Product Display 
<http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=98255-2120-30099&lpage=none>

Lamps Plus Product Display 
<http://www.lampsplus.com/Products/s_arc-floor-lamp/36062#>

Hermitage viewer 
<http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/fcgi-bin/db2www/descrPageStat.mac/descrPage?selLang=English&indexClass=PICTURE_EN&Query_Exp=%28WOA_TYPE+==+%22Painting%22%29+AND+%28WOA_AUTHOR+==+%22Rubens,+Pieter+Paul%22%29&PID=GJ-478&numView=1&ID_NUM=10&thumbFile=/tmplobs/FT4WRXGHAPDCM7VQ6.jpg&embViewVer=last&comeFrom=browse&check=false&sorting=WOA_AUTHOR%5EWOA_NAME&thumbId=6&numResults=26&author=Rubens,+Pieter+Paul>

Hermitage 3D viewer 
<http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/12/b2003/hm12_2_2.html>

Web Gallery of Art Dual Viewer <http://www.wga.hu/index_co.html>  (Go to 
"normal viewer" from here)

National Art Gallery <http://www.nga.gov/feature/vermeer/>    (One of 
the best "focused" review presentations-this is how I want to look at art!)


Thanks in advance!

Saragrace


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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Status: RO

I think I will jump in at this point, seeing French Hoods and the like 
are not my strong point, but holding the Girls in place that I have a 
lot of experience in. 

What I would recommend and this is just what I would do.  Seeing you are 
going to be doing the two dress approach, line the under bodice in a 
stout fabric, with a little stretch, Denim or a thick twill.  Then line 
the outer dress in something stiff, Buckram or the Interfacing, and some 
bones along the front and sides, not too many just a few to keep things 
smooth.  Also I would make the skirt on the under bodice out of again 
something stiff, or something that is easy to starch.  Clear as mud I am 
sure.  The idea being that the under bodice will help support the Girls 
and hold them in place, while the stiff outer bodice gives the line you 
are looking for without a lot of pinching and pulling.  Sounds a little 
strange but I fee that is how it was done in period.

Stephen

E House wrote:

> Large Snip
>
>> My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a 
>> farthingale.  I've read opinions that say yes you need them and I've 
>> read opinions that say no, you can live with a stiffly lined bodice 
>> and a petticoat(s) and that evidence in wardrobe accounts didn't show 
>> these undergarments until after 1540-1550.  If I can avoid the corset 
>> and farthingale with period justification, I would be thrilled, as 
>> this would cut a week off the project.  I'm a size 28/30 woman 
>> (depends on the clothing) with only a C cup chest, so breast support 
>> is not something I have a great need for, but I do have a couple of 
>> fat rolls at my sides. Is this an automatic "make a corset" 
>> proposition then?  I think my canvas-lined Venetians did very well 
>> for a smooth line when they fit (they're both currently too loose to 
>> provide any support) and I will have two gown layers.  Anyone here 
>> have any experiences with plus-sized late period garb and corsets or 
>> the lack thereof?
>
> Undergarments:
>
> Studying corsets and their origins is another one of my passions, and 
> I can tell you with as much certainty as I dare muster about anything 
> without access to a time machine that they did notnotnot NOT use 
> corsets at this point.  The bodice of the gown (or the undergown, or 
> both) was stiffened using various techniques, including canvas and 
> buckram. This is true well into the Elizabethan era, and the 'Tudor 
> corset' (read: pre-Eliz) as we know it is a complete fallacy!  I 
> haven't looked into the subject of farthingales too much, but 'hoopes 
> from the wast douneward' were mentioned in England as early as 1519.  
> However, you can certainly get the look of the portraits without a 
> farthingale if you use a relatively stiff fabric in your undergown.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -E House
> _______________________________________________
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Status: RO

I've seen the portrait!! It was the only reason that I made the 4 hour 
drive. What an adventure! We nearly got sucked up by a tornado. The car 
actually left the road for a brief period of time.

Last year the Detroit Museum of Art was one of the stops in an exhibition 
featuring Medici art. She's nearly life-size and the bottom of the portrait 
was less than 2 feet off of the floor. I was on my knees in front of it 
making inarticulate sounds. The guards thought I'd lost my mind! ;-D

It's a really odd combination. Her gown is black. The bodice is black and 
deep burgundy brocade; the upper sleeves and skirt are plain black. There's 
no trace of any kind of pattern in either the upper sleeves or the skirt. 
Her upper sleeves are ruched like those in the Panciatichi portrait. The 
lower sleeves are the same deep burgundy color as in the brocade of the 
bodice, though they are solid, not brocade.

kate


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "monica spence" <monicaspence@optonline.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Bronzino (was Re: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda 
aFirenze1540-1580


> The lower sleeves are deep maroon in most of the repros I have seen. It is
> funny that so many color reproductions vary in quality from place to 
> place.
> Anybody ever see the real portrait up close and personal? And BTW, the 
> lower
> sleeves (which tie into the armhole BTW, on the Lucrezia Panciatichi  gown
> are eggplant purple (aubergine). Makes for the possibility of interesting
> color combos for costumers who do early 16th C. Florentine...
> Dame Catriona MacDuff


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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: vintage textiles
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Oh, *droooool*!
--sue, wishing she'd win that lottery sometime (of course, she'd have to
*play* the lottery, but why interrupt a good fantasy? ;o)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: vintage textiles


> Well, that was particularly bright of me wasn't it? Not to post
> the URL. Sigh.
>
> Here you go, Bjarne, and many apologies.
>
> http://www.vintagetextile.com/early.htm
>
> Regards,
> Lorina
> Five Rivers Chapmanry
> purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
> re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
> 519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] knit jacket another blue and cream
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I've seen the red and gold one, but not this one:  Gotta check it out.

Object 	Jacket
Date 	17th century
Techniques 	Knitted silk thread
Artist/designer 	Unknown
Place 	Italy
Dimensions 	Length 22.5 in
Width 14.25 in
Length 15.75 in (arm)
Museum Number 	106-1899
 


Beth and Bob Matney wrote:

> You may also like this one (a bit later) at the Victoria and Albert 
> Museum
> http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=&submit-button=search&search-form=main/index.html 
>
>

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From: "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@tpg.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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<snip> Undergarments:
> My first dilemma is whether or not I need a set of bodies and a 
> farthingale.  I've read opinions that say yes you need them and I've read 
> opinions that say no, you can live with a stiffly lined bodice and a 
> petticoat(s) and that evidence in wardrobe accounts didn't show these 
> undergarments until after 1540-1550.  If I can avoid the corset and 
> farthingale with period justification, I would be thrilled, as this would 
> cut a week off the project.  I'm a size 28/30 woman (depends on the 
> clothing) with only a C cup chest, so breast support is not something I 
> have a great need for, but I do have a couple of fat rolls at my sides. 
> Is this an automatic "make a corset" proposition then?  I think my 
> canvas-lined Venetians did very well for a smooth line when they fit 
> (they're both currently too loose to provide any support) and I will have 
> two gown layers.  Anyone here have any experiences with plus-sized late 
> period garb and corsets or the lack thereof?

You might be interested in my dress diaries on my Tudor gowns 
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/dress_list.html I personally opt for a 
boned kirtle as I think it's a more versatile garment than a corset with 
separate petticoat and I'm also convinced from the way you can clearly see 
the kirtle and smock necklines above the gown's neckline (e.g. 
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Boleyn,Mary.jpg). I chose to bone mine 
as I wanted the rigid noble cone shape, but if you'd prefer the softer line, 
which is still evident well into the Tudor period and even into the 
Elizabethan period (though the cone shaped bodice gradually moves down the 
social ladder over time) Canvas or other stiff fabrics will help keep the 
cone shape but without some boning you will not eliminate all the curves. As 
you are doing a 1530s gown boning the gown's bodice isn't much of an issue 
as the waistline has only a very small dip at the centre front which won't 
flip up when you move (a problem I've encountered with my 1540s gown even 
though the skirt is attached to it).

>
> I have my Italian chemise, but the sleeves are very full, so I will likely 
> have to make a new one.  I plan on using Drea Leed's smock generator, 
> unless I find something better.  I've heard something about the sleeves 
> being off, so I'll have to do a mockup first since I've never used her 
> generator.  There's also a basic low-necked smock pattern on 
> vertetsable.com, but it doesn't use any gores so I'm not sure on its 
> authenticity.

I personally used Drea's smock pattern but instead of using the tapered 
sleeves she suggests I used rectangular sleeves so I could have a little 
cuff sticking out of the end of my gown sleeve, however another alternative 
would be to have a tapered sleeve and sew on a separate cuff (in the 
portrait of Princess Elizabeth http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/kideliz.jpg 
you can see her cuffs are gathered into a narrower band underneath her 
brocade sleeves)

>
> Kirtle:
> After looking at the evidence, I tend to agree that they wore two 
> dresses/kirtles/whatever you call them in addition to the chemise instead 
> of just a forepart skirt.  Of course this will add more work, but I'd feel 
> better about it going this way - not to mention that the false sleeves 
> will be more secure and I really only have to draft one pattern with 
> slight modifications.

I wouldn't make a decorative forepart a permanent part of the kirtle, at the 
moment I have a forepart skirt but it creates too much bulk at the 
waistline, the next one I make will be a panel hand sewn on top of the 
kirtle skirt so I can unpick the stitches and wear the kirtle without the 
forepart, however you could make your kirtle out of a nice fabric (such as a 
silk satin or taffeta) and wear it without a separate forepart.

>
> This layer will be a short sleeved kirtle, consisting of the "good" fabric 
> for the forepart of the skirt and top of the bodice and a similar weight 
> cheap fabric for the rest where it won't be seen.  If I do a jewelled 
> neckline, it will be attached to this layer.  I have no idea how this is 
> supposed to lace up yet - front, back, or sides (which I read as one 
> theory especially if the jewels go all the way around the neck).

Unfortunately I can't really help you too much with where to lace it, except 
to say that front lacing is a bit obvious and creates lumps under the gown 
if you use a round cord, but there is also evidence for front lacing 
(http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/aragon.jpg)

> I am completely unsure about the "good" fabric to use at this point.  Of 
> the portraits I see, either you have solid/tapestry or print/print.  I'm 
> not a huge tapestry fan.  I do have in hand more than enough ivory satin 
> of a suitable weight to use, but it is plain.  I thought about maybe 
> couching/beading estoiles, which is part of my device, on the false 
> sleeves and forepart, but this sort of thing wasn't done at this time, as 
> far as I can see.  Would going plain be such a crime or a plausible 
> non-royalty substitution?  Any suggestions for a good contrasting or 
> complementing color to use?  The Tudors loved gold, but I'm not the 
> biggest fan.
Well, as you can see from this portrait 
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/blackmary.jpg a plain satin 
forepart/undersleeves is also acceptable, If you want to incorporate 
estoiles into the dress you might want to see if you can find some small 
charms in that shape to decorate the neckline of your kirtle like you see 
with scallop shells in http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/aragon.jpg

>
> The false sleeves would be made of the same good fabric as used for the 
> kirtle, pinned or attached to the kirtle.  If I end up doing a shiny or 
> iridescent fabric instead of tapestry, I'm tempted to pleat them, like 
> Lady Guildford's portrait.
>
> Overdress: f
> I plan on using red cotton velvet or velveteen - I know velveteen would be 
> more within my budget, but I'm not sure of the overall look of it yet. 
> Would it work well?  I would like for the foldback sleeves to be the same 
> color of the dress, as seen with Lady Guildford, but I don't see many 
> other examples like this until later.  Could this also be an acceptable 
> compromise for someone not of royalty?  The front of the skirt will be 
> split to show off the "good" fabric of the kirtle.  If I have a train, it 
> will only be a slight one.
If you're using velvet for the gown I'd use a brocade to line the sleeves 
(which shows when you turn them back) like you see in 
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/portraitsetc/FitzalanMary.jpg and 
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/portraitsetc/Mary1545.jpg as these two, 
plus the portrait of Jane Seymour are the only portraits showing velvet 
gowns I've been able to find (and as I can't obtain gold net like Jane 
Seymour's wearing I've opted for brocade, though I'm still looking for a 
period looking brocade that will match the colour of my velvet gown). 
However this portrait of Queen Mary 
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/marybrown.jpg might be velvet (it's hard 
to tell), in which case the sleeves appear to be lined with the same fabric 
as the gown.

>
> Accessories:
> Jewelry will be simple.  Since I don't really like gold, is silver an 
> acceptable substitute?  I notice from the Mary Tudor portrait that they 
> didn't see a problem with mixing gold and silver.  I probably will use 
> plenty of glass pearls.  I will have the two standard necklaces and a 
> girdle, not sure yet about any brooches.  I'll work on that after I finish 
> the dresses.

A brooch is not absolutely essential, and a sash as a girdle was only just 
beginning to be old fashioned in the 1530s (if you look at this portrait of 
Catherine of Aragon 
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Aragon,Catalina05.jpg you can just make 
out what could be the knot of a sash between her hands)

>
> My french hood will be of more of a curved design, but not overly fancy. 
> I'm not sure which fabric to use for my crescent, as I've seen fabric used 
> from the overdress, the folded back sleeves, or the forepart/false sleeve. 
> I guess whichever fabric I prefer.  This is also a lower priority at this 
> point of the project.
The hood could match your dress, but it isn't necessary and I'd be wary of 
using any colours but black white and red (though there's a miniature of 
Catherine Howard where it's so encrusted in jewels it looks gold). My French 
Hood is based on Drea Aleed's instructions but with a 'muffin cap' (also 
using Drea's instructions but with the front section cut to follow the line 
of the French hood so only the pleated gold ruffle sticks out)

>
> Stockings are an extremely low priority at this point, as I could live 
> without them, and I have some Mary Jane-style shoes that will pass.
>
> So, what do you think?  I have done so much reading that my head is 
> spinning with details.  I don't see a lot of recreation in 1530, moreso in 
> the 1540 range, where there are some changes.  I wish I had more non-royal 
> sources as I really don't need to be that high of class and I'd like to 
> know where I can legitimately skimp on the details.  I'm just looking for 
> some feedback and corrections as needed because I want to go fabric 
> shopping within the week.
>
> -- 
> Elinor Salter

Well 1540s is popular because you have more portraits which are more 
detailed so it's easier, plus the fact that the pointed waistline emphasises 
the vertical which is often something 16th century costumers want.
Once you've got started let us know how it's going and hopefully we'll be 
able to help some more.
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/

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Thanks Robin!  I put in my pre-order!  Gytha

Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:
Today I hold in my hands the page proofs of Medieval Clothing & Textiles,
volume 2! For those who are interested, the contents of vol. 2 are listed
here:

http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832038.HTM

There are eight papers, covering (as always) a range of periods, places,
and disciplines. Costumers will want to take a close look especially if
you have interests in any of these topics:

-- Early Irish dress -- although the paper focuses on a particular
literary description, it has extensive discussion of archaeological finds
and artworks, and the footnotes provide a pretty good summary of the state
of research in this area

-- 13th/14th century French cloth trade, terms, and availability

-- 15th/16th century textile cleaning methods (by h-coster Drea Leed)

-- Renaissance "flea furs" -- this highly comprehensive study is loaded
with primary citations, and will stand as THE definitive piece of research
on this subject

-- Elizabethan/Jacobean embroidered jackets (by h-coster Danielle
Nunn-Weinberg)

There's more, too.

You can pre-order at the Boydell site (URL above), or through Amazon
(sizable discount at the moment).

Papers for Volume 3 are rolling in; we have some really good names and
topics, but I can't tell you what yet!

--Robin
(feel free to forward this message in its entirety)

==========================================================
Robin Netherton 
Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles
robin@nightowl.net

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
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>This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
>century stuff you have to drool at this website:
><http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/

I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is 
another one of those.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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It is a flash website - very drool-able! But some people may not be able 
to load it without a flash player.
Aylwen

http://www.regencyreproductions.com


Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

>
>> This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
>> century stuff you have to drool at this website:
>> <http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
>
>
> I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is 
> another one of those.
>
>
>        CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>          www.FunStuft.com
>
>              //// \\\
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>            ((((   7 )))
>             (((  <> ))))
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>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] So you want to be Jack the Ripper...
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Status: RO

 
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> celticredhead2002@yahoo.com 30/10/2005 08:11 >>>
 wrote:
>Hmmm, perhaps look at portraits of Prince Albert, or
>Charles Dickens?
>Or how about the American President of that time
>frame?
>our fashions were probably close to England's at he
>time.
 
Neither of these gentlemen was alive in 1889. Prince Albert died in 1861, Dickens in 1870.

--- Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:

> Does anybody know the size and shape of a man's
> cravat c. 1889? Were men 
> even wearing cravats at this time? I'm trying to
> find images of men's 
> outwear and not having a lot of luck at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 



    
        
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] knit jacket was Re: Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
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Status: RO

 
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> bmatney@alltel.net 30/10/2005 13:42 >>>

You may also like this one (a bit later) at the Victoria and Albert Museum
http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=&submit-button=search&search-form=main/index.html

Object Jacket
Date ca. 1625-1650
Techniques Hand-knitted in silk and silver-gilt wrapped silk, and lined 
with linen
Place London, England (possibly) Italy (possibly)
Dimensions Height 61 cm
Width 115 cm (with sleeves)
Museum Number 807-1904

Wow! What a fantastic garment, and just my period...

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:48:02 -0600
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Didn't come up blank with me. French site.
Click on "Entrer Dans La Galerie des modes".
Click on collections. On the side of the bottom of the picture are white
arrows, click on them to move to the next picture.

De

-----Original Message-----
><http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/

I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is
another one of those.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com




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ME WANT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I have been hanging around my 4 year old too long!

Stephen

Five Rivers Chapmanry wrote:

>	Well, that was particularly bright of me wasn't it? Not to post
>the URL. Sigh.
>
>	Here you go, Bjarne, and many apologies.
>
>http://www.vintagetextile.com/early.htm
>
>Regards,
>Lorina
>Five Rivers Chapmanry
>purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
>re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
>519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>  
>

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Subject: [h-cost] "Glove marriages"
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Dear all,
A query has been passed on to my living history group from an amateur writer in the North of England. He has been given an assignment of writing a story about a 17th century Dutch girl who makes a "glove marriage" with a man in the Dutch East Indies, i.e. a proxy marriage in which the proxy carried a glove embroidered by the bride, the pair of gloves being reunited when the bride eventually joined her husband. He can't find any information about this custom except in one or two 20th century novels. 
What do folks think? Is it a novelists' invention? Surely by the time the glove had been made and sent on ahead by sea, the girl might as well have been travelling herself?
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
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>><http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
>
> I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is 
> another one of those.

It's not blank, but the whole thing is animated and has music, etc. You 
probably need to update some software, or if you have a slow connection it 
just doesn't load properly.

Denise 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
References: <HGEEKKPFPKOJBDPGKLOCEENMLLAA.wandap@hevanet.com>	<72adc2660510271654k76e8e9e9v8ce64f7bc6f971f6@mail.gmail.com>	<HGEEKKPFPKOJBDPGKLOCEENMLLAA.wandap@hevanet.com>
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Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
> 
>> This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
>> century stuff you have to drool at this website:
>> <http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
> 
> 
> I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is 
> another one of those.

	Kayta, this also came up blank for me originally also (black, with a 
big empty white box in the center). I ignored it and went back to email. 
next time I went into my web window, it had filled in and was flying 
butterflies. So... if you do have flash, it just may take a minute to 
download for those of us on dialup and you should check it in a minute 
or so after loading. I have a web entry page sorta like that as well: 
the photo is lovely, but it takes a few seconds to fill in (at least the 
clickable text pops right up!).


	-Judy
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Hi Kayta,
I have a resonable connection 512 but i cant se it either. I also tryed to 
download flashplayer, but i think it is my antivirus programmes , that 
refuses me to see it.
I have to go for coffe at an internet cafe, to se it ;-(

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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References: <000501c5dd99$7d6c1fe0$6400a8c0@MAIN>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: vintage textiles
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:25:57 +0100
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Hi Lorina,
Thanks a million times, this was very nice to see, also the black wool 3 
piece from 1780-90. Perhaps i should try and make this later fashion some 
day........

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 10:32 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: vintage textiles


> Well, that was particularly bright of me wasn't it? Not to post
> the URL. Sigh.
>
> Here you go, Bjarne, and many apologies.
>
> http://www.vintagetextile.com/early.htm
>
> Regards,
> Lorina
> Five Rivers Chapmanry
> purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
> re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
> 519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: [h-cost] chenilles et papillons
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Perhaps someone could post an Url from the inside of the page, where there 
only are pictures?
Those arrows you said i cant see either even i have uploaded for a long time

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] the most delicious 18th century site
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>>This was just posted to the "Real Regency" list and if you like 18th 
>>century stuff you have to drool at this website:
>><http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
>
> I wish people would stop posting websites that come up blank.  This is 
> another one of those.

It's one of those annoying Flash sites. I hated them when they started 
making them, and I still hate them now. But the pictures are worth it, for 
once! 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] chenilles et papillons
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> Perhaps someone could post an Url from the inside of the page, where there 
> only are pictures?
> Those arrows you said i cant see either even i have uploaded for a long 
> time
>
> Bjarne

No no, there are no "only pictures" pages in there. It's all Flash. I wish 
they'd take the time to make a html page and give you the choice between the 
two. 
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Subject: [h-cost] Dress in Italian Painting available
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Wanted to let folks know that a copy of this appears to be available on
Abebooks for about $137 USD.

1. DRESS IN ITALIAN PAINTING 1460-1500, BIRBARI. E
John MURRAY, 1975, Hardback, 0719524237, COSTUME, DRESS, PAINTING,
RENAISSANCE,
GHOST OF PREVIOUS PENCILLED PRICE ON FRONT END PAPER. D/W HAS LIGHT WEAR
ON TOP EDGE
Bookseller: Anitabooks, Hereford, HWR
Price: ? 75.00 (US$ 136.99)

View or Order this Book:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/ListingDetails?bi=596653322&cm_la=want

Happy hunting!

Colleen


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elinor Salter" <elinorsalter@comcast.net>
> Are the sleeves truly ribbed?  When I look at it, the ribs just look like 
> the folds from pleating to me.  I'll have to look again when my eyes 
> aren't so tired.

Definitely ribbed fabric, like faille or grosgrain.  You could even tell how 
they'd laid out the sleeve on the fabric, because along the top of the 
sleeves the ribbing is pretty much parallel to the cuff edge of the sleeve, 
but along the slit on the sleeve's underside, the fabric is at a bias. 
Which fascinates me, because that doesn't seem anything like the most 
efficient layout!

I'll be going back to the museum to look at their Lowlands section again 
before too long.  If you'd like, I'd be happy to pick you up a postcard of 
the painting; with the help of a magnifying glass, you can make out nearly 
all the detail that the painting contains, and much more than any web image. 
(Mail me off-list if you want one.)  Although, the postcard also does that 
thing where the chemise material at the sleeves looks much more opaque than 
it does in the painting.

> I'm pretty sure it the rosary was red coral - it's too orangy to be ruby 
> and red coral was one of the favorite expensive materials.  Too bad the 
> real stuff today is still expensive and I haven't found the substitute 
> dyed coral in large enough beads yet (especially not as large as hers are 
> pictured).

Red coral is certainly possible, and would fit the history of the stuff.  It 
just didn't LOOK like it in the painting to me. =}  Either Holbein was 
having an off day, or (more likely) the finish and polish to red coral then 
was different than red coral now. Now, it's generally highly polished, but 
the stuff in the painting barely looks polished at all--more like wood or 
bone, or one of those nuts that they carve into beads. And of course, red 
coral is getting noticeably more expensive each year, like 15-20%!  Although 
luckily, it's the light-colored stuff that's most popular rather than the 
oxblood stuff. And since I spend several happy hours staring at bead 
catalogs each week, now you've got me interested in finding the perfect 
cost-effective replacement, so I'll post on that when I do!

> So do you think that the turn-back sleeves are a different material then? 
> I thought it looked the same as her gown fabric, but that's the problem 
> with black.  I've since seen a few more images of turn-back sleeves 
> matching the overgown, but they're of a later date.  I think I'm going to 
> go ahead and plan to do it that way.

Given the black-on-black, I'm as sure as I can be... the turned-back inside 
of the sleeve definitely has a deep pile of some sort to it, but I couldn't 
detect a pile on the rest of the fabric. However, I can think of a couple of 
portraits (both by Corneille de Lyon, and I think there's one by Clouet as 
well) where the sitter is wearing a black dress and (at least from the web 
images) it looks like the turn-back is of the same fabric as the dress, so 
if I didn't have some velvet of the right color just sitting around waiting 
to be used, I'd use that. (And by the way, I do mean only the lining fabric 
of the sleeves looked like it had a pile, not the fabric for the outside of 
the sleeves--looking back at my post I might have been unclear.)

> Thank you, thank you, thank you for confirming my greatest hope.  Now more 
> about the stiffening - how would I construct this?  My Italian dresses 
> have a layer of canvas on the inside with the fashion fabric on the 
> outside (no lining).  Is this enough, or should I be planning for more?  I 
> think I would prefer canvas because it would be a little easier to clean 
> when that time comes, I think.

There are a lot of different ways... canvas would definitely be one of them, 
and a period one at that, so if you've had success with it for other styles 
I'd say go for it with this one.  One thing I'd highly suggest is stiffening 
both your outer gown and your undergown, though not necessarily with the 
same technique, and not too heavily. Two light-weight stiffening techniques 
together work better and give more support than one heavy-duty technique.

A trick I've discovered but have yet to document (though I have ideas! 
Anyone into Cranach style dresses, ask me) is to use boiled wool as a 
stiffener; it works much like a corded corset, and gives you very smooth 
lines.  Just don't use it if you plan to wear this in temperatures over 
about 50 degrees, because breathable or not, that stuff gets awfully warm 
when it's right close to your body like that!

>> In fact, looking at the extant chemises in my image collection, it's 
>> rarer to HAVE gores than not.
...
> Really?  That's odd.  Is there anywhere online with those pictures or 
> patterns of the chemises?  I can only remember one 16th or 17th C chemise 
> with blackwork offhand in Cut My Cote, which I'm not sure where it is at 
> the moment.  Would the the sleeves of the chemise be poufy or tapered (I 
> thought vertetsable's was tapered)?  At first I thought the poufs of 
> chemise escaping the false sleeves were fake and their chemise sleeves 
> were tapered, now I don't, but who knows, maybe they still are - I've 
> never had a lot of luck with forcing poufs to stay poufed out with my 
> Italian sleeves.

Welp, see, as far as I can tell there was a switch between real chemise 
sleeves being puffed out of slits and fake poufs sewn in place to look like 
they puffed out.  The problem is pinning down when that switch happened, 
which I haven't managed to do yet! =}  I'm pretty sure it happened somewhere 
between 1500-1540, and therefore possibly in time for your dress to have the 
fake poufs, but I'm not positive; about the only thing I'm reasonably sure 
of is that it wasn't a universally-timed switch and there were all sorts of 
different things going on side by side for much of that time period.

The practical reasoning behind the switch helps pin down the dating a bit, 
though, at least for a specific style of outer dress.  In the first quarter 
of the 16thC, the outer sleeves on square necked gowns were loose all over, 
and the false sleeves (which were not universally worn, and not even 
necessarily false) were small and relatively fitted; though they were sort 
of puffy, they didn't really stand away from the arm.  In other words, 
there's room for a puffy chemise sleeve under there, and if you were to pull 
that puffy chemise sleeve through slits in the false sleeve, the puffs would 
have your arm to hold them in place, rather than getting lost in the 
cavernous space between your arm and your false sleeve.  In the 2nd quarter 
of the 16thC, the bicep part of the outer sleeve got much tighter and the 
false sleeve got much larger.  If you wanted that outer sleeve as tight as 
possible at the bicep, you wouldn't wear a huge puffy chemise sleeve under 
it; it'd mess up the line.  And if you wanted your false sleeve to have the 
effect of a puffy chemise sleeve, you'd have to fake it, because you got rid 
of that puffy chemise to make the outer sleeve fit how you wanted it to fit.

So, there's a few different chemise options: the flat, tunic-like chemise as 
on vertetsable, which is more of a 15th century style (or at least, I can 
document it well for the 15th century, including the seams); or, the puffy 
gathered chemise, or a combination of the two.  The combination style is 
mostly theoretical right now, as far as I know (though there's a couple of 
extant Italianate chemises that are similar to my theoretical garment). 
However, it accounts for the flat, square chemise neckline visible with some 
outfits that also show probably-not-false puffy sleeves, especially where 
another type of partlet is worn (suggesting that the flat, square chemise 
neckline isn't a partlet). Of course, it's quite possible that they wore two 
different chemises, or two different partlets, or two of each all at the 
same time.

There are no extant puffy gathered chemises from England in that period that 
I've seen. The closest-dated extant western chemise-type garment I know of 
is the chemise/blouse displayed with the Mary of Hungary dress:
http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html which actually does have a 
gore.
There's also the Nils Sture shirt, which helps for technique stuff, but 
being male and high-necked probably isn't patterned anything like what 
they'd have worn with this sort of dress. There's a gap in extant chemises 
around your time period; then, there are several English and Italian late 
16thC chemises that are very well documented. You may do well to copy one of 
the Italianate chemises, as the lines would work well for a 
combination-style chemise.  There's one in this book:
Ricci E. 'Italian Lace Designs 243 Classic Examples' New York Dover 1993
that's really well suited, but I couldn't tell you where exactly.  Here's a 
couple of pictures of it, though:
http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/ricci1.jpg
http://www.formfunction.org/temp3/ricci5.jpg

When I do c1515-c1525, I use a pattern I've come up with myself that gives a 
specific effect (lines of embroidery/trim that seem to radiate evenly out of 
the neckline all around) which is different from what you'd need for this 
dress, and isn't based on anything beyond 'it looks right'.  Basically, my 
version has rectangles (or trapezoids) for each arm and for the body, but 
instead of putting the short end of the sleeves against the body so that the 
sleeve is perpendicular to the body, I put the long side against it, so that 
you have 3 parallel rectangles.  I sew about a foot-long armhole seam on 
each side to connect the two, then gather the tops of all 3 rectangles into 
the neckband. Clear as the Mississippi river?  If someone wants to try it, 
I'll put up a diagram.  For anything earlier, I'd almost always go with a 
flat, tunic style, or at most a combination.

If you go with fake poufs, then the flat, tunic style of chemise is most 
practical, since you don't want anything big and in the way.

-E House 

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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:07:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] grey waistcoat embroidery
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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WOW!!!  As always, stunning work!  
 
Covetously yours,
Chris G.

Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
Well, i know i said i had to waite with this till when i have finished the
yellow dress, but i could not resist my lust to try out the mulberry silk
threads i got.
This is going to be a dark grey gentlemans embroidered waistcoat of 1770ies.
It is vey hard to trace pattern to dark fabric, so i used my rice paper,
reversed the pattern and sticked it to the backside of the taffeta. Then i
used white sewingthread and small running stitches to outline the whole
pattern. This worked fine, but it took some time to do.
Here is one pattern repeat of the pattern. At the bottom of the page;
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/herreveste..htm

Bjarne



		
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Dress in Italian Painting available
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The book is truly excellent, but it is small (114 pages and with 115 b&w 
plates). Though it is frequently cited, there is some criticism that it 
makes excessive use of allegorical paintings. I would gladly buy a reprint 
at a more reasonable price. It is readily available via ILL.

Beth Matney

At 10:21 AM 10/31/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:20:06 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Colleen McDonald" <Colleen.McDonald@comcast.net>
>Subject: [h-cost] Dress in Italian Painting available
>
>Wanted to let folks know that a copy of this appears to be available on
>Abebooks for about $137 USD.
>
>1. DRESS IN ITALIAN PAINTING 1460-1500, BIRBARI. E
>John MURRAY, 1975, Hardback, 0719524237, COSTUME, DRESS, PAINTING,
>RENAISSANCE,
>GHOST OF PREVIOUS PENCILLED PRICE ON FRONT END PAPER. D/W HAS LIGHT WEAR
>ON TOP EDGE
>Bookseller: Anitabooks, Hereford, HWR
>Price: ? 75.00 (US$ 136.99)
>
>View or Order this Book:
>http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/ListingDetails?bi=596653322&cm_la=want
>
>Happy hunting!
>
>Colleen

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] chenilles et papillons
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There isn't a picture only page. After you have go to the second page and
clicked on Collections, there is a picture to the left and words on the
right of the screen. The "arrows" or white triangles are the advance key to
change the pictures.
Printemps, Ete, Automne and Hiver are sets of pictures but the screen will
have the picture box to the left and description on the right. When you
click on each set, it takes a moment for the screen to appear. When you
click on the triangles the picture will phase into the next.  My computer
says that the connection is "Done" but it takes about 30 seconds for the
site to appear afterwards. Automne, maybe a little longer as they have the
music.
http://www.chenillesetpapillons.com/
Good luck. Hope this will help.
De

-----Original Message-----
Perhaps someone could post an Url from the inside of the page, where there
only are pictures?
Those arrows you said i cant see either even i have uploaded for a long time

Bjarne


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Subject: Re:  [h-cost] Planning my first Tudor, need feedback on my plan
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Elinor -- 
 
I'll let people more knowledgeable than I am answer most of your questions, but I thought I'd offer two links you might find interesting, if you haven't seen them yet:
 
http://photos.ladybrooke.com/sca/gowns/velvetgown/gettingstarted.htm
This is kind of a dress diary for a gorgeous Tudor outfit that includes where to get patterns for everything, and most of them are available for free on the Internet.
 
http://www.fabric.com/apparel-fashion-fabric-just-arrived-fashion-fabric-cotton-velvet-fabric.aspx
Fabric.com has cotton velvet for $9.95 a yard, which is no more expensive than velveteen. I don't know if that's in your price range or not, but they've got several interesting shades of red.
 
 
Hope this helps,
Tea Rose
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Subject: [h-cost] children's sizing - very OT
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I know there are members here that must sew for children - modern clothes. I am wanting to make a hooded fleece jacket for my friend's little girl and am having a terrible time finding a pattern that is sized right. She is currently wearing 12-18 mos. - but is also already walking. I have looked at the big three and found nothing suitable - either not meant for fleece or the sizing is wrong or both. Anyone have any suggestions where else I could look, or know of a specific pattern I may have over looked?
 
(replying off list is fine as my email filter usually sends those through without a problem)
 
Thanks,
Annette M

		
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From: Cin <cinbarnes@gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] English Cut, a bespoke tailor's blog
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I heard this piece on NPR last week, only just now getting around to
telling you about it.  Here's the "Marketplace" URL
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2005/10/25/PM200510254.html

The radio spot featured the blog of a bespoke English tailor.  It's a
charming read, and for those of us into fine tailoring, it even has
the odd useful tidbit.
http://www.englishcut.com/

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com

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