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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CIETA Embroidery Newsletters
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Status: RO

oooooooo!!! Thanks Beth! :D

Arlys

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:32:38 -0600 Beth and Bob Matney
<bmatney@alltel.net> writes:
> This site might be of interest:
> http://www.annatextiles.ch/newslet/newsint.htm
> 
> Includes the CIETA Embroidery Newsletters from Dec. 1995 to Sept 
> 2006
> 
> You might also find her home page 
> http://www.annatextiles.ch/index.html of 
> interest.
> 
> Beth
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] movie costumes
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I haven't seen either of these movies discussed, so here goes.

Today we took our kids to see "Night at the Museum." Lots of fun costumes --
at night all the characters in the museum come to life, so there are
costumes from all eras and cultures. Because they are museum mannequins come
to life, they are all supposed to be costumes (not real period clothes) so I
had relief from my typical costumed-movie horror. There were LOTS more
people in this movie than I thought there would be from the commercials, a
whole Roman army, for example. It was a lot of fun, lightweight but very
enjoyable. My favorite costumes were two people dressed as terra cotta
Chinese soldiers. I thought they did a great job with those. There were also
some ACW "cloth dummies" running around that were a lot of fun.

Second movie -- I caught most of "One Night with the King" last night on
television. It was a big-budget, released in theaters version of the story
of Queen Esther that was out this fall. Talk about a cheesy movie! Really
bad script, acting, etc. But the costumes!!!!! They range from what looks
half decent (to me, not knowing what Biblical Persian clothes would have
looked like, but at least plausible) to just awful. I heard that it was
based on a sort of Evangelical Christian romance novel, and the guy who
plays King Ahaseurus/Xerxes was supposed to be a sort of tortured romantic
lead. But he looked preposterous, his clothes were awful, and he was so
annoying I can't imagine anyone falling in love with him. The young actor
who played the Egyptian king in "Night at the Museum" looked a lot more
authentic AND a lot more romantic. Anyway, Esther's clothes were all over
the place, and a lot of them looked like artsy prom dresses. She did look
Jewish though, or at least a lot more Jewish than Xerxes looked Persian.

In sum, the costumes in "Night at the Museum" were more authentic and more
attractive than the ones in "One Night with the King." The movie was much
better, too. I was supposed to take my daughter to see that one with some
other girls and their moms, but we never found a time and I'm very glad. If
I'd had to pay for it I would have wanted my money back. My daughter did go
see "The Nativity Story" with people from church, so I was spared that. From
the stills, it looked like more costume horror, though of the usual earnest
thick weave, lots of knotted rags, and seams on the outside of the garment
sort.

Gail Finke

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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In a message dated 1/1/2007 5:43:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gailscott@eos.net writes:

From
the stills, it looked like more costume horror, though of the  usual earnest
thick weave, lots of knotted rags, and seams on the outside  of the garment
sort.



************************
 
The best "biblical" costumes I've ever seen were in those Old Testament  
things Turner television did. They were all filmed in Italy I think and had  
Italian designers.
I could never get all the way thru a whole one however...the scripts were  so 
bad. Richard Harris played Abraham in one....I love to hate Richard Harris.  
It was hysterical...Ishmael and Isaac as kids come running in the tent for a  
hug. then run out laughing and Abraham says "God I love those boys." I 
laughed.  Sarah has lines like "Your land has been fertilized by the dung of our 
goats."  Pu-leeze!
 
ANYWAY..... the costumes were amazing.
 
In the one about Joseph, Potiphar and his wife look fantastic! If I  
remember....she was in a sheer coral red crinkled gauze shift to her  feet that had a 
turquoise knitted over dress, very open in its working,  that made the whole 
thing appear like a coral and turquoise  geometric patterned tube that clung 
tightly to the body. The naked  body showed thru the bright gauze and the open 
work knitted shift had bits  of gold bobbles worked into it...and it ended in 
tied tassels at her  ankles. She wore that familiar wig, like a big hair helmet 
with hammered gold  leaves that dangled and shimmered all over it. The dark 
cole eyes and red  lips....she looked like she stepped off a Pyramid  wall!
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?
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Status: RO

Hi Linda,

Good to see you on the web again!  Those are some nice Cher links you sent. 
Thank you!  You know I didn't take Cher's wig from the Richmond concert. 
Besides... I went to see her in Philly.

Robin, is the dress you are describing on this page? 
http://www.everythingcher.com/pages/gal1970.htm Click on the thumbnail to 
the far right under the large photo... cream outfit.  It has a tied knot at 
her throat.

I have some vintage Cher magazine articles and the Bob Mackie book.  I can't 
get to them until after Jan. 12.  We remodeled my office and then my son 
moved in there until my Mom leaves on the 12th.  Then yippee!  My son will 
move back in his room and I can get back my office back.  Funny... for 
Christmas I got more bookshelves for my office and can't get into my office!

Anyways, the Mackie book is one of my favorite books.  Robin, also on Cher's 
two latest concert CD's there are some nice photo montages of her career and 
costumes.  I always wanted to do a photoshoot of Cher's wardrobe but she 
recently auctioned them off.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Status: RO

Robin,

I am sorry it is Cher's DVDs not CDs.

Penny Ladnier, 
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?
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On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Penny Ladnier wrote:

> Robin, is the dress you are describing on this page?  
> http://www.everythingcher.com/pages/gal1970.htm Click on the thumbnail
> to the far right under the large photo... cream outfit.  It has a tied
> knot at her throat.

No, but that's cool too ... No, the one I remember had a single piece
coming straight up from the skirt, over one breast, around the back of the
neck, then down to cover (just) the other breast and then end. No
crossing, knots, wraparounds. It was the asymmetricality, plus the near
physical impossibility of it staying in place, that made it so striking.

Good luck with the remodeling. If you should happen to see that dress in a
photo in one of your books someday, please drop me a note!

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?
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Status: RO

Robin,

When I can get in the office, I will take a look.  I need to move the 
magazines off an old book shelf to the new one... so hopefully the Cher 
costume will be in one of those magazines.

Update...I got into the office to get the Mackie book!!!  My son actually 
cleaned up his mess!  Can't get to the magazines. :(

Page 65 of the book, "Unmistakably Mackie."
There is a Cher dress that might be the one you are talking about.  This 
dress is made from one solid piece of fabric.. no seams.  The photos are 
b&w.  It looks kinda Grecian.  The skirt pulls up to her right side exposing 
the right leg and drapes (alot) around her left leg.  The skirt swoops 
behind her right breast with a long hair braid covering her breast.  The 
fabric goes behind her chest and over her left shoulder and arm, and pinned 
at wrist, with fabric draping down to the floor from the left arm.  The 
fabric over the left shoulder is pinned somehow to the right side of the 
neck.  This creates a bare diagonal line across her right breast to beneath 
the left hip.  The two photos, front and back views, show Mackie pinning the 
costume on Cher for a photoshoot.  I believe she is supposed to be an Indian 
by the two long thick braids with a criss-cross ribbons also a ribbon across 
her forehead, and she is holding a tall shear in the other hand with the 
draping.  This photo was before her boob job.  No photo credit was given.

If this is not it... let me know and I will look more.  I would scan the 
photos but my scanner bulb blew and can't get it to the shop until this 
week.  Hopefully the techs will be back from the holidays.  If not, I will 
photocopy it and mail it to you.

Robin, I recently purchased a copy of this book cheap on Amazon.com used 
books.  The book had not been used before.  I guess it was an overstock.

I am also re-grouting a bathroom... back to grout.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?


>
> On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Penny Ladnier wrote:
>
>> Robin, is the dress you are describing on this page?
>> http://www.everythingcher.com/pages/gal1970.htm Click on the thumbnail
>> to the far right under the large photo... cream outfit.  It has a tied
>> knot at her throat.
>
> No, but that's cool too ... No, the one I remember had a single piece
> coming straight up from the skirt, over one breast, around the back of the
> neck, then down to cover (just) the other breast and then end. No
> crossing, knots, wraparounds. It was the asymmetricality, plus the near
> physical impossibility of it staying in place, that made it so striking.
>
> Good luck with the remodeling. If you should happen to see that dress in a
> photo in one of your books someday, please drop me a note!
>
> --Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed
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Interesting new discoveries about the Medici's:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1979151,00.html

::Linda::

(sorry, no relevant costume content, just kinda interesting story)

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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 07:35:29 -0500
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Status: RO

Hi Penny~!

Yup, I'm still here... just don't post very often these days. I *try* to
keep up with H-cost postings but admit that sometimes when they "flush"
in great batches I do have to skim over a bunch. 

Glad to hear you and your family are doing well. Good luck on the
office, and the grout! 

::Linda::


On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone remember this dress?

Hi Linda,

Good to see you on the web again!  Those are some nice Cher links you
sent. 
Thank you!  You know I didn't take Cher's wig from the Richmond concert.

Besides... I went to see her in Philly.


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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <c7e.3aed1f1.32cb42ad@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 06:00:48 -0700
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Status: RO

Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a humongous
boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes


> In the one about Joseph, Potiphar and his wife look fantastic! If I
> remember....she was in a sheer coral red crinkled gauze shift to her  feet
that had a
> turquoise knitted over dress, very open in its working,  that made the
whole
> thing appear like a coral and turquoise  geometric patterned tube that
clung
> tightly to the body. The naked  body showed thru the bright gauze and the
open
> work knitted shift had bits  of gold bobbles worked into it...and it ended
in
> tied tassels at her  ankles. She wore that familiar wig, like a big hair
helmet
> with hammered gold  leaves that dangled and shimmered all over it. The
dark
> cole eyes and red  lips....she looked like she stepped off a Pyramid
wall!


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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed
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Status: RO

Thanks! This great!
Monica

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Linda Rice
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:30 AM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed


Interesting new discoveries about the Medici's:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1979151,00.html

::Linda::

(sorry, no relevant costume content, just kinda interesting story)

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In a message dated 1/2/2007 7:52:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:

Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a  humongous
boo-boo, right there. 
 
************************
 
Well it may have been crocheted...or just knotted in some way....but you  get 
the idea. I'm remembering, or trying to, something from looooong  ago.
 
*****************************
 
 Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
there any  evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?


**********************
 
 
Good question. But in this case, I don't care. This was TV... a movie,  not a 
museum piece. And she still looked great and totally convincing. It's  
Potiphar's wife y'know. She doesn't even have a name as far as I know. And he  was 
sexy and seductive, as per her theatrical purpose. It was beautiful!






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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:35:00 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Isn't Potiphar's wife traditionally believed to have been named Zuleika?
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/2/2007 7:52:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mooncat@in-tch.com writes:
>
> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a   
> humongous
> boo-boo, right there.
>
> ************************
>
> Well it may have been crocheted...or just knotted in some  
> way....but you  get
> the idea. I'm remembering, or trying to, something from looooong  ago.
>
> *****************************
>
>  Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
> there any  evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
>
>
> **********************
>
>
> Good question. But in this case, I don't care. This was TV... a  
> movie,  not a
> museum piece. And she still looked great and totally convincing. It's
> Potiphar's wife y'know. She doesn't even have a name as far as I  
> know. And he  was
> sexy and seductive, as per her theatrical purpose. It was beautiful!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a  humongous
> boo-boo, right there. 

The Coptic people did a thing that looked a lot like knitting.  Is this 
movie example something so far off?
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Green Valley
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Before Christmas the BBC showed a film about preparing a Tudor feast, involving some of the same people as were in the "Green Valley" project. It was filmed at Haddon Hall here in Derbyshire, obviously in the summer although it was billed as a Christmas programme. It's a wonderful house, preserved but not lived in for centuries and so virtually unchanged. I've often thought I'd love to go there in costume.


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Subject: [h-cost] Christmas Gift Exchange
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Ha! Finally! my gift arrived!

Apparently the description on the declaration wasn't convincing enough.... customs felt the need to open the package, so it was hung up at Canada Border Services Agency this whole time.
Kelly Dorman sent me a beaded hat pin - it's just lovely! I had started my costuming days in the Victorian and Edwardian era, so I have a wonderful HUGE Victorian picture hat this will be perfect with! It's just the right colours for it too! Just in time to be photographed with my entire collection end of this week. I'm finally getting around to making a real portfolio.

Very worth the wait. :-D Thank you!

Kathy
 
Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules.

It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131



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Status: RO

The Coptic's had a form of needle knitting and to my understanding a form of
macramé' was known in Egypt. They also knew how to dye their fabrics.
This is a start.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/fabrics.htm
http://africanhistory.about.com/od/hieroglyphs/a/ColorTech.htm

What makes you think that they were so primitive as to not know how to dye
fabrics?
De

-----Original Message-----
Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a humongous
boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
--Sue


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> The Coptic's had a form of needle knitting and to my understanding a form of
> macramé' was known in Egypt.

It's called naalbinding, and is almost identical to knitting except that 
it's done with a threaded needle.  The thread follows almost the same 
path as it does in knitting, except that the worker has to thread a new 
needle every once in a while.
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From: "Voncile W. Dudley" <wildthangstreasures@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
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    I'm late checking my email.  I would love to have any books that needs a good home especially garments from the 15th century up.
  Lady Von
  Hope I am not to late!
  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Pinto" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin


> In the process of (finally) unpacking my books, I've been finding things 
> that could use a home other than mine. I have a Metropolitan Museum of 
> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they sent members these glossy 
> books every quarter. It's from the costume collection and contains large, 
> high-quality pictures of garments from 1695 through the early 1950's, 
> including microphotographs of some of the embroidered detail of the 
> garments. It's nice to look at, but way past anything I'm really 
> interested in.
> So... I will scan and send photos of anything that someone fancies, and 
> the whole thing can belong to the first person who asks for it. (You have 
> two weeks to ask for the pictures, then I'll mail it.) The highlights:
>
> - Complete embroidered woman's dress from 1695
> - Four men's 18th c embroidered coats, one uncut, one with original 
> embroidery cartoon, one with pants and vest
> - Men's banyans
> - Assorted women's 18c dresses, one with panniers, most sack-backed, all 
> embroidered or hand-painted, 1740's - 1795
> - Assorted women's 19c outfits, day dresses, evening wear, several from 
> each decade
> - Assorted women's 20c outfits, evening wear, suits, etc, up to the 50's
>
> -Helen/Aidan
>
>
> -
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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  Lady Von
   
  http://www.wildthangstreasures.com
   

 
---------------------------------
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Status: RO

When thinking realistic, what do you think you will finish of historical 
costumes in 2007?
Had it not ben for my insanity with embroidering every costume i make,  i 
would probably finish much more.
But this year i hope to finish the anglaise dress, the aurora red francaise 
dress, and maybe my green embroidered jacket wich is on my embroidery frame. 
Its only half done for the left side, but considering that i have finished 
all the embroidery for the anglaise dress and that the aurora red francaise 
only have pleating for decoration, i might be right that i  wil finnish the 
green jacket. I already finished the yell
ow waistcoat for it.
Its not that i am in lack of inspiration, i have plenty of taffetas to make 
new costumes for myself.
Also the most funny of it all is my insanity i have become with 18th century 
wigs. I just asked a swedish friend to make me a wig like Mr. Cossway in 
Jefferson in Paris, you know the funny dandy type.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Status: RO

          As part of our new website, we now have an interactive blog
available, where the monthly newsletter, surveys, and general comments will,
and can, be posted. Come and visit. Let us know what you're thinking. Leave
comments about our most recent survey.

 

          And we still have a modest number of sewing patterns and
re-enactor supplies available, all at 60% discount!

 

Regards,

Lorina Stephens

Five Rivers Chapmanry

purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.

519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org

 

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In a message dated 1/2/2007 3:09:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

What  makes you think that they were so primitive as to not know how to  dye
fabrics?



*******************
 
I don't think that is what the poster meant. I think it was a reference to  
all the white linen we've found in tombs. White certainly was prevalent.  
Considering the climate, I can see why.
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From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:34:08 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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On Jan 2, 2007, at 5:00 AM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
>
>
>> In the one about Joseph, Potiphar and his wife look fantastic! If I
>> remember....she was in a sheer coral red crinkled gauze shift to  
>> her  feet
> that had a
>> turquoise knitted over dress, very open in its working,  that made  
>> the
> whole
>> thing appear like a coral and turquoise  geometric patterned tube  
>> that
> clung
>> tightly to the body. The naked  body showed thru the bright gauze  
>> and the
> open
>> work knitted shift had bits  of gold bobbles worked into it...and  
>> it ended
> in
>> tied tassels at her  ankles. She wore that familiar wig, like a  
>> big hair
> helmet
>> with hammered gold  leaves that dangled and shimmered all over it.  
>> The
> dark
>> cole eyes and red  lips....she looked like she stepped off a Pyramid
> wall!

> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a humongous
> boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really  
> wrong--is
> there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
> --Sue
>

 From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by  
a surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of  
threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular  
sheath with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe"  
of dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the  
original to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark  
photograph of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html

Heather


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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

See, for me, it wouldn't have been convincing at all, given the (to me)
obvious visual clues.  We'll all pick up on different things, depending on
our levels of interest/expertise, etc.  I'm betting that most people in the
intended audience of the movies discussed earlier in the thread would have
the same reaction to peasants in burlap as you do to an Egyptian queen
wearing clothing centuries, if not actual millenia, out of date.
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes


>
> In a message dated 1/2/2007 7:52:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mooncat@in-tch.com writes:
>
> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a  humongous
> boo-boo, right there.
>
> ************************
>
> Well it may have been crocheted...or just knotted in some way....but you
get
> the idea. I'm remembering, or trying to, something from looooong  ago.
>
> *****************************
>
>  Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
> there any  evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
>
>
> **********************
>
>
> Good question. But in this case, I don't care. This was TV... a movie,
not a
> museum piece. And she still looked great and totally convincing. It's
> Potiphar's wife y'know. She doesn't even have a name as far as I know. And
he  was
> sexy and seductive, as per her theatrical purpose. It was beautiful!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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Status: RO

Two programmes on British TV over Christmas showed Victorian brides in sleeveless dresses. One was the film of "Nicholas Nickleby", the other a version of "Dracula". Dammit, you wear DAY clothes to a wedding! (or used to.)

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor


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From: Julie <jtknits@jtknits.cts.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Status: RO

What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as the coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any crown and usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.

I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't know what to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>

Julie

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From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Egypt Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Nalbinding, the sort that looks like crossed-loop
knitting, can be told from knitting by the way it
increases and decreases.

Dorothy Burnham wrote an excellent article where she
analyzed 'ancient Egyptian knitting' and traced the
thread path to prove all extant pieces she analyzed to
be nalbinding.

It was used for small pieces where shaping is very
useful, such as socks, and other small pieces, which
might be purses or other little items.

The netted dresses from Egypt were, to my limited
knowledge, made of strung beads, often faiance (man,
can't spell that word, sort of glass that didn't get
melted quite all the way) or what we'd now term
semi-precious stone, and some gold mixed in.

The Egyptians, by all accounts, really prized their
beautiful white linen, which bleaches so beautifully. 
They wished, by and large, their costumes' color to
come from the jewelry.

Ann in CT

--- Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com> wrote:

> It's called naalbinding, and is almost identical to
> knitting except that 
> it's done with a threaded needle.  The thread
> follows almost the same 
> path as it does in knitting, except that the worker
> has to thread a new 
> needle every once in a while.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

You mean nalbinding? I don't believe there's any evidence of it being used
for larger items of clothing, such as dresses.  I know of socks, and a hat.
No dresses.
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes


> > Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a  humongous
> > boo-boo, right there.
>
> The Coptic people did a thing that looked a lot like knitting.  Is this
> movie example something so far off?


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Spanish costume/Alcega
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Status: RO

> Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:46:54 +1300
> From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume/Alcega
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <005b01c72d46$b7a1e6b0$0301010a@michaela>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

>
> There are very definitely two different garments and they almost certainly
> serve a different purpose, I just have yet to work out what they are!
>
> The Vasquina occasionally come with a bodice, but the diagram very clearly
> states when this is the case (Vasquina y cuerpo baxo) also remember the term
> kirtle means different things at different times and probably our use of the
> word to describe a bodiced garment for many periods isn't quite correct.
> Also remember when you kirtle your skirts it means to bunch it up at the
> hip;)

I think you're right about "kirtle" meaning different things at
different times, looking at Alcega I'd say that extends to different
places as well. The only big difference I can notice at first glance
is that what the translator is calling a "skirt" has curved seams, but
a "kirtle" has straight seams.
>
> The Vasquina are all cut as gored skirts you will notice, so the waist will
> be pleated/gathered. The fact that some come with a body... I'm not sure.
> Perhaps they were worn with the doublet type bodices you can see at the
> beginning of the diagrams (f 14.) Perhaps they were worn over the Verdugados
> as it is constructed in a similar manner. Or were a replacement for the
> Verdugados

Actually, I did a bit of research and reading today and what I've
found suggests that the skirts were shaped by gores, NOT pleated or
gathered. There's a short photographic blurb in  "Moda a Firenze"
about Spanish influences, and some speculative layouts by an author
called Carmen Bernis derived from Alcega in a book called "Alonso
Sánchez Coello y el retrato en la corte de Felipe II". I have yet to
run the latter through Google translator or the like (I don't
speak/read Spanish) so it may be awhile before I figure out how good a
source this is, though.
>
> The Faldellin are all half circle in shape with a seam across the front. I
> personally wonder if these are mimicked by "tucks" in the fronts of court
> dress we see. Perhaps the style started as a practical cutting issue with
> these half circle skirts and then were used as decoration. I know I've seen
> similar fossilisation of features in ceremonial dress but I cna't think of
> many off the top of my head. Panniers under high waisted gowns is one that
> springs to mind.
> Maybe these were worn between vasquina and gowns to help acheive that cone
> shape of he skirt. Maybe these were worn with the doublet type bodice at the
> start of the book.

I have not looked at the faldellin yet - I take from your description
that these are another variant of skirt?
>
> I am going to look closer in the various Trachtenbuchen of the time to see
> if there is any representation of dress other than what we see in portraits
> of the time that may shed a light. They certainly helped me with my Koeln
> dress research.

If you find anything, would you be willing to share? I offer what
little I have in exchange (from the looks of your site, you're WAY
ahead of me!)
>
> Michaela de Bruce
> http://sayaespanola.glittersweet.com
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com

Allison T.

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Subject: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Status: RO

 
barbette and fillet?
 
 
In a message dated 03/01/2007 14:24:07 GMT Standard Time,  
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

Message:  13
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:47:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Julie  <jtknits@jtknits.cts.com>
Subject: [h-cost] name of a hat?
To:  <h-costume@indra.com>
Message-ID:  <200701030047.TAA04870@victory.concentric.com>
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What is the correct name of the medieval  hat commonly referred to as the 
coffee filter hat?  It looks like a  sailor's hat without any crown and usually 
involves a chin strap and a hair  net.

I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I  don't know what 
to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project  <GG>

Julie


 
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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200701030047.TAA04870@victory.concentric.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:22:01 -0700
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Status: RO

Dunno....I've always heard them referred to in informal terms--coffee filter
hat, pie-crust hat, etc., depending on the particular style.  You might look
at the hat section in Cynthia Virtue's website--I recall seeing hat-ish
stuff there in the past.
--Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie" <jtknits@jtknits.cts.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: [h-cost] name of a hat?


> What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as the
coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any crown and
usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.
>
> I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't know what
to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>
>
> Julie
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:24:32 -0700
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Status: RO

A beaded/netted overgown? How cool is that? ;o) I hadn't heard of that
intriguing garment, so thanks to you and the other poster who mentioned it.
I can see now why the designers of AlbertCat's movie might have tried to
imitate it.
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes


>
> On Jan 2, 2007, at 5:00 AM, Sue Clemenger wrote:

>
> > Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a humongous
> > boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really
> > wrong--is
> > there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
> > --Sue
> >
>
>  From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by
> a surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
> threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular
> sheath with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe"
> of dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the
> original to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark
> photograph of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
>
> http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
>
> Heather


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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:16:04 -0700
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Status: RO

When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?  I 
never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history books.  
It's been decades since I studied the history of costume, but since I'm 
going to be teaching it this January I'd really like to keep up on 
recent developments.

Sylrog

On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:34 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>
> From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by a 
> surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of 
> threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular sheath 
> with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe" of 
> dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the original 
> to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark photograph 
> of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
>
> http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
>
> Heather
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....
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Status: RO

I have a question for you 19th century types, born out of completely idle
curiosity.  This Christmas, I was given a lovely bracelet comprising
different buttons from the 1870s.  They are all about 1/2 inch in diameter,
and have surprisingly complex and lovely designs in them.  They are made of
cut steel and brass, with occasional tiny flecks of what looks like
marcasite, and are fairly hefty in weight for their size (because of the
metal, I'm guessing).
What on earth would something like that have been used on? The garment
fabric would have to be pretty substantial to not deform or tear from the
weight....
--Sue in Montana

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Status: RO

Having been up for 5 minutes, my brain isn't working yet, but you might
google 'Cynthia Virtue website'--she has a bunch of info on them and
other period hats, incl. how to make them.

Arlys

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) Julie <jtknits@jtknits.cts.com>
writes:
> What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as 
> the coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any 
> crown and usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.
> 
> I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't 
> know what to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>
> 
> Julie
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:35:03 -0600
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Status: RO

These sound like typical bodice buttons for a woman's dress. And there wold
have been a lot of them used--think of a row of small buttons all down the
front.

A Victorian bodice was a substantial garment, with at least 2 layers of
fabric, plus boning.

Wish I had the button jar your bracelet came from!

Kim in ND

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Sue Clemenger
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:30 AM
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....

I have a question for you 19th century types, born out of completely idle
curiosity.  This Christmas, I was given a lovely bracelet comprising
different buttons from the 1870s.  They are all about 1/2 inch in diameter,
and have surprisingly complex and lovely designs in them.  They are made of
cut steel and brass, with occasional tiny flecks of what looks like
marcasite, and are fairly hefty in weight for their size (because of the
metal, I'm guessing).
What on earth would something like that have been used on? The garment
fabric would have to be pretty substantial to not deform or tear from the
weight....
--Sue in Montana

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h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
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Status: RO

 
In a message dated 1/3/2007 9:17:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
wildthangstreasures@yahoo.com writes:

have a  Metropolitan Museum of 
> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they  sent members these glossy 
> books every quarter. It's from the costume  collection and contains large, 
> high-quality pictures of garments from  1695 through the early 1950's, 



***********************
 
 
Is that the one with the beautiful Regency gown of white mull with poofs  all 
over it worn with a huge beige bonnet...and a child in a white  gown...on the 
cover? I have that one somewhere.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

There is one at the MFA in Boston, it was conserved several years ago,
when I worked there or just before.  I might have a picture somewhere
in an old bulletin.  It was beautiful beads in blues mostly as I
recall.

Katy

On 1/3/07, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net> wrote:
> When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?  I
> never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history books.
> It's been decades since I studied the history of costume, but since I'm
> going to be teaching it this January I'd really like to keep up on
> recent developments.
>
> Sylrog
>
> On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:34 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> >
> > From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by a
> > surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
> > threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular sheath
> > with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe" of
> > dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the original
> > to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark photograph
> > of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
> >
> > http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
> >
> > Heather
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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In a message dated 1/3/2007 10:16:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:

A  beaded/netted overgown? How cool is that? ;o) 


***************
 
 
I thought so. I mean it's better than Liz Taylor or Claudette Colbert  
[though their costumes for their Cleopatras have their own amazing  qualities]
 
Watch....
Someone will dig up this Joseph thing and the gown will actually be white  
with a coral and turquoise overdress! Like I said, I'm trying to remember  
something I saw once quite a while ago.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....
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In a message dated 1/3/2007 10:22:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:

What on  earth would something like that have been used on? The garment
fabric would  have to be pretty substantial to not deform or tear from  the
weight....



They might go down the front of one of those boned-to-death high necked  
bodices. These things are quite substantial....lined, innerlined, stabilized,  and 
boned... and not easy to deform. Often the buttons go from neck to hem  of 
the bodice, set close together. In princess gowns of the mid 1870's, they  might 
go to the floor.
Or they could be used for outer wear...a redingote or  something.
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

I know it's naalbinding/nalbinding but did not know what the Coptics called
it so I did not want to call it naalbinding. I guess I could have said a
form of needle knitting that the Scandinavians refer to as naalbinding :)

De

-----Original Message-----

> The Coptic's had a form of needle knitting and to my understanding a form
of
> macramé' was known in Egypt.

It's called naalbinding, and is almost identical to knitting except that
it's done with a threaded needle.  The thread follows almost the same
path as it does in knitting, except that the worker has to thread a new
needle every once in a while.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....
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Status: RO

In addition to other comments:

I've also found these buttons on garments made of lighter weight fabrics such as 
silk tafffeta. In many instances, the buttons are not sewn on. The shank is 
inserted through a hand-sewn eyelet and the button is secured on the wrong side 
with a clip, a long piece of linen twill tape, or a thin strip of leather or, in 
two examples, a piece of string. This technique provides much more support and less 
strain on the bodice.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007



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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <IDEHICPIJOEBPADHEOGPAEMPIDAA.otsisto@socket.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 19:45:30 -0700
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Status: RO

Did I *ever* say, or intimate that Egyptians were primitive? Huh? Wherever
did you get *that* idea? I asked if there was any evidence of *linens* being
dyed *at that time.*  Linens are notoriously difficult to dye using natural
dyes.
Good grief.....
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] movie costumes


> The Coptic's had a form of needle knitting and to my understanding a form
of
> macramé' was known in Egypt. They also knew how to dye their fabrics.
> This is a start.
> http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/fabrics.htm
> http://africanhistory.about.com/od/hieroglyphs/a/ColorTech.htm
>
> What makes you think that they were so primitive as to not know how to dye
> fabrics?
> De
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a humongous
> boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really wrong--is
> there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
> --Sue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Final Clearance on Patterns and Re-enactor Supplies!

We've deep discounted our remaining stock of historical sewing patterns and
re-enactor supplies to 75%! At these prices you can't go wrong!

Cooperage Update

Gary is still working on the few remaining cooperage orders he has, and is
looking forward to opening for orders, and even having a bit of stock,
around mid-year.

Recipes of a Dumb Housewife

We now have all the testers we need for Lorina's upcoming recipe book,
Recipes of a Dumb Housewife. Revisions will take place during February, and
a publication date tentatively set for March or April. We'll keep you posted
about cost and pre-order information!

Happy New Year

As always, Gary and Lorina wish you all a contented, prosperous and healthy
New Year.

 

Five Rivers Chapmanry

purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.

519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org

 

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

At 12:04 PM 1/2/2007, you wrote:
>The Coptic's had a form of needle knitting and to my understanding a form of
>macramé' was known in Egypt. They also knew how to dye their fabrics.
>This is a start.
>http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/fabrics.htm
>http://africanhistory.about.com/od/hieroglyphs/a/ColorTech.htm
>
>What makes you think that they were so primitive as to not know how to dye
>fabrics?
>De

Until the addition of wool (and possibly cotton) 
to the fabrics used in Egypt, linen was the 
fabric, and linen does not dye very 
easily.  Where colored clothing is shown in the 
tomb paintings, it is obvious that they 
individuals portrayed are foreigners who we know 
from other evidence used wool (which dyes 
beautifully and easily). To add color to outfits, 
the Egyptians used netted overdresses with 
various sorts of beads.  So a white linen dress 
with an netted beaded overdress would be 
likely.  A colored linen dress is not seen in any 
of the tomb paintings or in the tombs where 
linens (including clothing) were found.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 
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Subject: [h-cost] Name of a Hat?
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Status: RO

I got an answer from Cynthia herself on the Milliner's list:
********
Heh. I think that one is my fault, at least partially. They really do 
look like coffee filters, don't they?

"Fillet" is one term, "toque" is good if you subscribe to the closed-top 
version, and I don't know what the medievals reallly called them. I've 
heard some folks call them a "Plantaganet cap" but I don't know the 
provenance of that one.

Cynthia

----  <h-costume-request@indra.com> wrote:
> Dunno....I've always heard them referred to in informal terms--coffee filter
> hat, pie-crust hat, etc., depending on the particular style.  You might look
> at the hat section in Cynthia Virtue's website--I recall seeing hat-ish
> stuff there in the past.
> --Sue
> > What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as the
> coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any crown and
> usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.
> >
> > I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't know what
> to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>
> >
> > Julie

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From: Julie <jtknits@jtknits.cts.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:29:47 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: [h-cost] Name of a Hat?
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Status: RO

I got an answer from Cynthia herself on the Milliner's list:
********
Heh. I think that one is my fault, at least partially. They really do 
look like coffee filters, don't they?

"Fillet" is one term, "toque" is good if you subscribe to the closed-top 
version, and I don't know what the medievals reallly called them. I've 
heard some folks call them a "Plantaganet cap" but I don't know the 
provenance of that one.

Cynthia

----  <h-costume-request@indra.com> wrote:
> Dunno....I've always heard them referred to in informal terms--coffee filter
> hat, pie-crust hat, etc., depending on the particular style.  You might look
> at the hat section in Cynthia Virtue's website--I recall seeing hat-ish
> stuff there in the past.
> --Sue
> > What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as the
> coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any crown and
> usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.
> >
> > I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't know what
> to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>
> >
> > Julie

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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:19:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
   
  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's enough people on this list who will appreciate these too!
   
  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm 
   
  Chris R.
   
  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's ball gowns I WILL finish :) 

Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
  When thinking realistic, what do you think you will finish of historical 
costumes in 2007?
Had it not ben for my insanity with embroidering every costume i make, i 
would probably finish much more.
But this year i hope to finish the anglaise dress, the aurora red francaise 
dress, and maybe my green embroidered jacket wich is on my embroidery frame. 
Its only half done for the left side, but considering that i have finished 
all the embroidery for the anglaise dress and that the aurora red francaise 
only have pleating for decoration, i might be right that i wil finnish the 
green jacket. I already finished the yell
ow waistcoat for it.
Its not that i am in lack of inspiration, i have plenty of taffetas to make 
new costumes for myself.
Also the most funny of it all is my insanity i have become with 18th century 
wigs. I just asked a swedish friend to make me a wig like Mr. Cossway in 
Jefferson in Paris, you know the funny dandy type.

Bjarne



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From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
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Status: RO

The catalogue is gone, but if you send me your mailing address, I'll send 
you a CD-Rom of the scans of all the pages.
                       -Helen/Aidan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Voncile W. Dudley" <wildthangstreasures@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin


>
>    I'm late checking my email.  I would love to have any books that needs 
> a good home especially garments from the 15th century up.
>  Lady Von
>  Hope I am not to late!
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Helen Pinto"
> To: "Historical Costume"
> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:18 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
>
>
>> In the process of (finally) unpacking my books, I've been finding things
>> that could use a home other than mine. I have a Metropolitan Museum of
>> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they sent members these glossy
>> books every quarter. It's from the costume collection and contains large,
>> high-quality pictures of garments from 1695 through the early 1950's,
>> including microphotographs of some of the embroidered detail of the
>> garments. It's nice to look at, but way past anything I'm really
>> interested in.
>> So... I will scan and send photos of anything that someone fancies, and
>> the whole thing can belong to the first person who asks for it. (You have
>> two weeks to ask for the pictures, then I'll mail it.) The highlights:
>>
>> - Complete embroidered woman's dress from 1695
>> - Four men's 18th c embroidered coats, one uncut, one with original
>> embroidery cartoon, one with pants and vest
>> - Men's banyans
>> - Assorted women's 18c dresses, one with panniers, most sack-backed, all
>> embroidered or hand-painted, 1740's - 1795
>> - Assorted women's 19c outfits, day dresses, evening wear, several from
>> each decade
>> - Assorted women's 20c outfits, evening wear, suits, etc, up to the 50's
>>
>> -Helen/Aidan
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>
>
>
>  Lady Von
>
>  http://www.wildthangstreasures.com
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject


> Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
>
>  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's enough 
> people on this list who will appreciate these too!
>
>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm
>
>  Chris R.
>
>  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's ball gowns I 
> WILL finish :)

Dear Chris,
Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the small house 
to the left?
Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille embroidery.
I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying "When this you 
see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.

Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.

Bjarne 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Just went and checked and it is a barbette and fillet - the round bit with  
no crown being the barbette, and the fillet being the bit that goes under the  
chin (although have seen them without that in pics).  
 
don't have any nfo on what the hair net part is called though.
 
debs


 
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Might it be a "toque"?
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From: Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Oh Jeeze, eh? Thats the knit thing you wear on your head in Canada eh? (pass the back bacon...) ;0)

Sheridan in 'Northern' Ontario...


> 
> From: AlbertCat@aol.com
> Date: 2007/01/03 Wed AM 11:03:26 EST
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
> 
> Might it be a "toque"?
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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I think the chin-strap is a barbette, the hat part is a fillet & the
net, a caul.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Julie
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:48 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] name of a hat?

What is the correct name of the medieval hat commonly referred to as the
coffee filter hat?  It looks like a sailor's hat without any crown and
usually involves a chin strap and a hair net.

I finished one over the holidays.  Looks pretty good but I don't know
what to call it so I can turn it in as an arts project <GG>

Julie

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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:45:26 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

I suppose this is going to be a Rorshach -- I don't see an angel with  
a gun, but a spotted dog standing guard (the structure being dog  
house/guard house?) with a gun. But then, one man's angel could be  
another woman's spotted dog, I suppose...
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject
>
>
>> Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
>>
>>  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's  
>> enough people on this list who will appreciate these too!
>>
>>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm
>>
>>  Chris R.
>>
>>  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's ball  
>> gowns I WILL finish :)
>
> Dear Chris,
> Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
> Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the  
> small house to the left?
> Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille  
> embroidery.
> I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying "When  
> this you see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.
>
> Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.
>
> Bjarne
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

Mine was a simple question. How I read your question, it seemed to imply
that you did not think that they were capable of dyeing fabric during that
era, thus it seemed to me to imply primitive. Perhaps I should have used the
word ignorant or something better to ask why you thought the Egyptians
lacked dyeing skills during that era.

<<Sue: ..is there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?>>

De

-----Original Message-----
Did I *ever* say, or intimate that Egyptians were primitive? Huh? Wherever
did you get *that* idea? I asked if there was any evidence of *linens* being
dyed *at that time.*  Linens are notoriously difficult to dye using natural
dyes.
Good grief.....
--Sue



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From: Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:36:37 -0500
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Status: RO

It looks to me like a border guard or castle guard at a small  
guardhouse. Lovely helmet. Halt!
Happy new year, everyone!
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject
>
>
>> Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
>>
>>  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's  
>> enough people on this list who will appreciate these too!
>>
>>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm
>>
>>  Chris R.
>>
>>  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's ball  
>> gowns I WILL finish :)
>
> Dear Chris,
> Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
> Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the  
> small house to the left?
> Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille  
> embroidery.
> I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying "When  
> this you see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.
>
> Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.
>
> Bjarne
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s buttons....
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In a message dated 1/3/2007 11:33:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
cschmitt@genteelarts.com writes:

This  technique provides much more support and less 
strain on the  bodice.




************
 
Not to mention easy removal for the cleaning of the garment. And easy  
replacement.
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debs wrote:
> don't have any nfo on what the hair net part is called though.
> 

Probably crespine.
            -Helen/Aidan

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Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:07:20 -0500
From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

That's the one, from Fall, 1987.  You can have a CD-Rom of it, if you send 
me your mailing address.
                       -Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin


>
> In a message dated 1/3/2007 9:17:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> wildthangstreasures@yahoo.com writes:
>
> have a  Metropolitan Museum of
>> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they  sent members these glossy
>> books every quarter. It's from the costume  collection and contains 
>> large,
>> high-quality pictures of garments from  1695 through the early 1950's,
>
>
>
> ***********************
>
>
> Is that the one with the beautiful Regency gown of white mull with poofs 
> all
> over it worn with a huge beige bonnet...and a child in a white  gown...on 
> the
> cover? I have that one somewhere.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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In a message dated 1/3/2007 5:29:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
hdpinto@verizon.net writes:

That's  the one, from Fall, 1987.  You can have a CD-Rom of it, if you send  
me your mailing address.
-Helen



******************
 
I shall. And I encourage others to also. It's a beauty. I also remember a  
great 1830's plaid dress with a bias pleated bertha [on a seated  figure] and 
there was an insert left out at printing of an 1860's ball  gown with a 
voluminous skirt and bodice made entirely of Brussels  Lace....or was it Battenburg? 
Anyway, it's something to  see!
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] name of a hat?
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Status: RO

Wouldn't "barbette" be derived from the root meaning "beard" and  
therefore logically be the part that goes under the chin?
--Ruth Anne

On Jan 3, 2007, at 10:56 AM, Debloughcostumes@aol.com wrote:

>
> Just went and checked and it is a barbette and fillet - the round  
> bit with
> no crown being the barbette, and the fillet being the bit that goes  
> under the
> chin (although have seen them without that in pics).
>
> don't have any nfo on what the hair net part is called though.
>
> debs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:09:36 -0700
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Status: RO

Speaking of ancient costume history,  are any of you expert in the 
field of Mesopotamian costume?  I'm wondering what else might have been 
dug up in that area since I studied costume history.  Anyone know any 
good books on the subject?

Sylrog

On Jan 3, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Katy Bishop wrote:

> There is one at the MFA in Boston, it was conserved several years ago,
> when I worked there or just before.  I might have a picture somewhere
> in an old bulletin.  It was beautiful beads in blues mostly as I
> recall.
>
> Katy
>
> On 1/3/07, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net> wrote:
>> When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?  I
>> never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history books.
>> It's been decades since I studied the history of costume, but since 
>> I'm
>> going to be teaching it this January I'd really like to keep up on
>> recent developments.
>>
>> Sylrog
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:34 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>> >
>> > From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by 
>> a
>> > surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
>> > threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular 
>> sheath
>> > with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe" of
>> > dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the 
>> original
>> > to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark photograph
>> > of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
>> >
>> > http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
>> >
>> > Heather
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > h-costume mailing list
>> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
> vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
>     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
>      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Name of a Hat?
References: <200701031729.MAA12329@swiftsure.concentric.com>
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Status: RO

Greetings--

Julie wrote:
> I got an answer from Cynthia herself on the Milliner's list:
> ********
> Heh. I think that one is my fault, at least partially. They really do 
> look like coffee filters, don't they?
>
> "Fillet" is one term, "toque" is good if you subscribe to the closed-top 
> version, and I don't know what the medievals reallly called them. I've 
> heard some folks call them a "Plantaganet cap" but I don't know the 
> provenance of that one.
I might!  Eleanor, the Countess of Leicester, sister of Henry III and 
definitely a Plantagenet, wears one on her seal.  The seal also has the 
stylized "planta genet" (a sort of viney thing with a pod on the end), 
in this case bedecked with the arms of her husband, Simon de Montfort.   
(The back of the seal also notifies you that she's the sister of the 
King of England.  I love it :-)

Don't know if that's it, but it sure could be.

Susan
(member of Eleanor's fan club)
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

This might help...

http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/detail/details/index_no_login.php?objectid=UC177
43&accesscheck=%2Fdetail%2Fdetails%2Findex.php



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Katy Bishop
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:50 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian

There is one at the MFA in Boston, it was conserved several years ago,
when I worked there or just before.  I might have a picture somewhere
in an old bulletin.  It was beautiful beads in blues mostly as I
recall.

Katy

On 1/3/07, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net> wrote:
> When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?  I
> never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history books.
> It's been decades since I studied the history of costume, but since I'm
> going to be teaching it this January I'd really like to keep up on
> recent developments.
>
> Sylrog
>
> On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:34 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> >
> > From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by a
> > surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
> > threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular sheath
> > with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe" of
> > dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the original
> > to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark photograph
> > of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
> >
> > http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
> >
> > Heather
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
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Status: RO

Nice!
short version of url
http://tinyurl.com/ydjm4p

De

-----Original Message-----
This might help...

http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/detail/details/index_no_login.php?objectid=UC177
43&accesscheck=%2Fdetail%2Fdetails%2Findex.php


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My package from Diane arrived today! She sent me a nice pair of scrubby gloves which will be great for getting rid of dry winter skin, several candles which I love, a small spiral notebook, two foot-fizzers for sore feet, a small pincushion, and a string of rice pearls and some beading needles. I will think of her generosity as I sew the pearls onto an Elizabethan partlet I have planned and every time I wear it.
 
Thank-you, Diane!
 
Karen
Seamstrix
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 20:05:39 -0500
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On Wednesday 03 January 2007 6:09 pm, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
> Speaking of ancient costume history,  are any of you expert in the
> field of Mesopotamian costume?  I'm wondering what else might have been
> dug up in that area since I studied costume history.  Anyone know any
> good books on the subject?

Except for Mary Houston's book on the subject (which is sort of "ancient" 
itself!) I don't know of anything.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I agree, I couldn't quite figure it out myself, but for such small work and with chenille thread...Yikes!  
   
  I love this site and go there to drool often!  Someday maybe I'll treat myself to something too...after I win the lottery ;)

Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote:
  I suppose this is going to be a Rorshach -- I don't see an angel with 
a gun, but a spotted dog standing guard (the structure being dog 
house/guard house?) with a gun. But then, one man's angel could be 
another woman's spotted dog, I suppose...
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net

 http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm

>
> Dear Chris,
> Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
> Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the 
> small house to the left?
> Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille 
> embroidery.
> I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying "When 
> this you see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.
>
> Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.
>
> Bjarne

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> A beaded/netted overgown? How cool is that? ;o) I hadn't heard of that
> intriguing garment, so thanks to you and the other poster who  
> mentioned it.
> I can see now why the designers of AlbertCat's movie might have  
> tried to
> imitate it.
> --Sue
>

Yeah, it's incredibly cool.  (The same sort of technique seems to  
have been used for beaded-net sarcophagus covers that would include a  
facial portrait of the deceased.)  I had fun making one for my  
"ancient Egyptian doll" -- see <http://www.heatherrosejones.com/ 
digthatdoll/egyptianwoman.html>.  It's about 2/3 of the way down the  
page.  (The doll is about 10" tall.)

Heather

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
>
>
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2007, at 5:00 AM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>
>>
>>> Not if what she was wearing was obviously knitted.  That's a  
>>> humongous
>>> boo-boo, right there.  Also, the color of the gown sounds really
>>> wrong--is
>>> there any evidence of linens being dyed in Egypt at that time?
>>> --Sue
>>>
>>
>>  From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by
>> a surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
>> threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular
>> sheath with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe"
>> of dangling flower-shaped beads.  _Might_ -- I'd have to see the
>> original to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark
>> photograph of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page  
>> at:
>>
>> http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html
>>
>> Heather
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:42:27 -0800
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On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:16 AM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:

> When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?   
> I never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history  
> books.  It's been decades since I studied the history of costume,  
> but since I'm going to be teaching it this January I'd really like  
> to keep up on recent developments.

I've run across mentions of about 3 of the dresses, not all of which  
were preserved very carefully after discovery.  The main researcher  
who seems to have written about them is Rosalind Hall.  I believe  
there's some discussion in:

Hall, Rosalind.  1981.  "Fishing-net dreses in the Petrie Museum" in   
Gottinger Miszellen:  42:36-46.

and there's a color picture in the "Shire Archaeology" series book on  
ancient Egyptian textiles, which she also wrote.

Heather

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:59:25 -0500
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Status: RO

On Wednesday 03 January 2007 10:16 am, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
> When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?  I
> never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history books.
> It's been decades since I studied the history of costume, but since I'm
> going to be teaching it this January I'd really like to keep up on
> recent developments.

I believe I saw a picture of such a beaded net dress in Archaeology magazine 
about two or three years ago.  

I think I still have the issue.  If so, it may indicate when the find was 
actually made.

Ooops!  I was wrong--it wasn't Archaeology at all, and it was longer ago than 
a few years.  The article I have in mind was in KMT:  A Modern Journal of 
Ancient Egypt.  Winter 1995-1996, vol. 6, No. 4.  It's by a Rosalind Janssen, 
an assistant curator at the Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology at 
University College London ("Petrie Museum") and it's called, "An Ancient 
Egyptian Erotic Fashion:  Fishnet Dresses."  Turns out that more than one 
have been found, and there are pictures of two restored (i.e., restrung) 
dresses accompanying the article.  One is dated to the 4th Dynasty.  The 
caption on the photo claims it was found during George Reisner's excavations 
at Giza in 1927 and is now at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston (MFS 
27.1548).   Another was found by Brunton at Qau in 1923-24; the article has 
two pictures of this one; one as it was incorrectly restored in the 1960s and 
a more recent restoration; it is now in the Petrie Museum.  A picture of what 
the caption calls "macrame" (but looks more like a net with beaded motifs at 
the bottom) and a mesh referred to as a "netted linen fragment" also appear, 
along with a painted statute and tomb painting that appear to show similar 
garments.  

In light of the age of the relevant finds and the tomb art, I'm surprised no 
reference to such a garment showed up in the older books.  Anyway, I can send 
you scans of the photos (possibly even of the whole article) by private 
e-mail if you are interested. The article also discusses evidence for 
garments made of linen netting that would have been as erotic and more 
comfortable to wear.   


[Heather said:]
>
> On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:34 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> > From the description, it sounds like it might have been inspired by a
> > surviving Egyptian "bead net" dress -- a very open network made of
> > threaded beads.  The one I'm thinking of is basically a tubular sheath
> > with shoulder straps and at the bottom hem it has a "fringe" of
> > dangling flower-shaped beads. 

This description tallies pretty well with the "macrame" fragment pictured in 
the KMT article, though Janessen says the MFA dress has stylized bead flowers 
along the hem, too.  (I'm not sure I think so, from the picture, though.)  
The macrame fragment is also in the MFA, so I'm not clear which item she 
means.


> > _Might_ -- I'd have to see the original 
> > to know if the suspicion holds up.  There's a rather dark photograph
> > of the item I'm thinking of about halfway down the page at:
> >
> > http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html

The "dark photo" referred to on the URL cited above appears to be a bad shot 
of the rear of the garment from the Petrie Museum.  The KMT article has 
full-length shot of that garment, in color and from the front.  


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes
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Status: RO

On Wednesday 03 January 2007 9:34 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
> > A beaded/netted overgown? How cool is that? ;o) I hadn't heard of that
> > intriguing garment, so thanks to you and the other poster who
> > mentioned it.
> > I can see now why the designers of AlbertCat's movie might have
> > tried to
> > imitate it.
> > --Sue
>
> Yeah, it's incredibly cool.  (The same sort of technique seems to
> have been used for beaded-net sarcophagus covers that would include a
> facial portrait of the deceased.)  I had fun making one for my
> "ancient Egyptian doll" -- see <http://www.heatherrosejones.com/
> digthatdoll/egyptianwoman.html>.  It's about 2/3 of the way down the
> page.  (The doll is about 10" tall.)

I have very occasionally seen similar-looking garments (using plastic beads, 
naturally!) sold by vendors of belly dance costumes.  These modern examples 
seem to be made using crochet techniques.  "Egyptian beaded dress" or "beaded 
crochet dress" plugged into Google will sometimes turn up examples.  I'd love 
to have one.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

On Wednesday 03 January 2007 9:42 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:16 AM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
> > When did this evidence about Egyptian beaded net dresses surface?
> > I never heard of it before nor is it in my old costume history
> > books.  It's been decades since I studied the history of costume,
> > but since I'm going to be teaching it this January I'd really like
> > to keep up on recent developments.
>
> I've run across mentions of about 3 of the dresses, not all of which
> were preserved very carefully after discovery.  The main researcher
> who seems to have written about them is Rosalind Hall.  I believe
> there's some discussion in:
>
> Hall, Rosalind.  1981.  "Fishing-net dreses in the Petrie Museum" in
> Gottinger Miszellen:  42:36-46.
>
> and there's a color picture in the "Shire Archaeology" series book on
> ancient Egyptian textiles, which she also wrote.

The woman who wrote the KMT article is probably the same person.  It mentions 
that she's written several books on Ancient Egypt in collaboration with her 
husband, Jac. J. Janssen.  Hall is probably her maiden name.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 20:19:30 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Funny you should mention that book.  I just so happen to have made a 
photocopy on it in its entirety when I ran across it for the first time 
a few years ago in a small town library.  Since it was written in 1920, 
I've wondered ever since how accurate it is.  Incredibly detailed, so 
I've been wondering.  any consensus among you all?

Sylrog

On Jan 3, 2007, at 6:05 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 6:09 pm, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
>> Speaking of ancient costume history,  are any of you expert in the
>> field of Mesopotamian costume?  I'm wondering what else might have 
>> been
>> dug up in that area since I studied costume history.  Anyone know any
>> good books on the subject?
>
> Except for Mary Houston's book on the subject (which is sort of 
> "ancient"
> itself!) I don't know of anything.
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
> of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:35:26 +0000
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Status: RO

Helen/Aidan, I happily received the CD-ROM just after Christmas!

Thank you for the disc!

Happy Happy dance...

Elena/Gia

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net> 

> The catalogue is gone, but if you send me your mailing address, I'll send 
> you a CD-Rom of the scans of all the pages. 
> -Helen/Aidan 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Voncile W. Dudley" 
> To: "Historical Costume" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:15 AM 
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin 
> 
> 
> > 
> > I'm late checking my email. I would love to have any books that needs 
> > a good home especially garments from the 15th century up. 
> > Lady Von 
> > Hope I am not to late! 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Helen Pinto" 
> > To: "Historical Costume" 
> > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:18 PM 
> > Subject: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin 
> > 
> > 
> >> In the process of (finally) unpacking my books, I've been finding things 
> >> that could use a home other than mine. I have a Metropolitan Museum of 
> >> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they sent members these glossy 
> >> books every quarter. It's from the costume collection and contains large, 
> >> high-quality pictures of garments from 1695 through the early 1950's, 
> >> including microphotographs of some of the embroidered detail of the 
> >> garments. It's nice to look at, but way past anything I'm really 
> >> interested in. 
> >> So... I will scan and send photos of anything that someone fancies, and 
> >> the whole thing can belong to the first person who asks for it. (You have 
> >> two weeks to ask for the pictures, then I'll mail it.) The highlights: 
> >> 
> >> - Complete embroidered woman's dress from 1695 
> >> - Four men's 18th c embroidered coats, one uncut, one with original 
> >> embroidery cartoon, one with pants and vest 
> >> - Men's banyans 
> >> - Assorted women's 18c dresses, one with panniers, most sack-backed, all 
> >> embroidered or hand-painted, 1740's - 1795 
> >> - Assorted women's 19c outfits, day dresses, evening wear, several from 
> >> each decade 
> >> - Assorted women's 20c outfits, evening wear, suits, etc, up to the 50's 
> >> 
> >> -Helen/Aidan 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> - 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________ 
> >> h-costume mailing list 
> >> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > h-costume mailing list 
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Lady Von 
> > 
> > http://www.wildthangstreasures.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --------------------------------- 
> > Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and 
> > get things done faster. 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > h-costume mailing list 
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

On Wednesday 03 January 2007 10:19 pm, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
> Funny you should mention that book.  I just so happen to have made a
> photocopy on it in its entirety when I ran across it for the first time
> a few years ago in a small town library.  Since it was written in 1920,
> I've wondered ever since how accurate it is.  Incredibly detailed, so
> I've been wondering.  any consensus among you all?

Shrug.  It's hard to say.  To my knowledge, there aren't really any 
archaeological textile finds (as opposed to jewelry and clay tablets) in what 
was then Mesopotamia....  If I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to hear about it!


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Status: RO

Okay, I knew that would get your attention. :)
 
I have decided to reclaim the space on my bookshelves which is currently  
occupied by eleven issues of a booklike periodical called Renaissance  Quarterly. 
They were published by the Renaissance Society of  America from 1988 to 1992. 
 None of them have any specifically  costume-oriented content, but there is 
an article analyzing  the Arnolfini marriage portrait and two articles 
discussing representations  of Mary Tudor and Elizabeth I.
 
I snagged these years ago when my college library was going to  trash them, 
so if anyone on this list wants them, you can have them  for the cost of 
shipping (which I reckon will be $10 or so in the US). Send  me an e-mail off-list 
if you're interested. 
 
Tea Rose
_TeaRoseS@aol.com_ (mailto:TeaRoseS@aol.com) 
or
_thessalyrose@gmail.com_ (mailto:thessalyrose@gmail.com) 
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From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:36:38 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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On Jan 3, 2007, at 8:06 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 10:19 pm, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
>> Funny you should mention that book.  I just so happen to have made a
>> photocopy on it in its entirety when I ran across it for the first  
>> time
>> a few years ago in a small town library.  Since it was written in  
>> 1920,
>> I've wondered ever since how accurate it is.  Incredibly detailed, so
>> I've been wondering.  any consensus among you all?
>
> Shrug.  It's hard to say.  To my knowledge, there aren't really any
> archaeological textile finds (as opposed to jewelry and clay  
> tablets) in what
> was then Mesopotamia....  If I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to hear  
> about it!

I'm not aware of any surviving textile finds -- but there are a _lot_  
of surviving artistic representations, including a lot of detailed  
and realistic 3-dimensional statuary.  Deciphering some of the  
stylized textures can be interesting (especially the "tufted" look),  
but I wouldn't be at all surprised if an in-depth study could come up  
with some very plausible theories on construction and materials.

Heather

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From: "Chiara Francesca" <chiara.francesca@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <c7e.3aed1f1.32cb42ad@aol.com><200701032005.39802.cathy@thyrsus.com><46c39403355e4531308f0f60a6d90ed5@ntw.net>
	<200701032306.11697.cathy@thyrsus.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

You may want to check the Cambridge online resources. I seem to remember 
that they had a few publications covering Mesopotamian textile impressions 
and some possible textile items.

When I was in college oh low those many years ago one of the classes that 
was required for my degree was one specifically about Mesopotamia. (I did 
not finish my degree.) Since that was in the early 80's they sure as hell 
must have found something by now since they have had so many new things come 
up in the last 2 decades.

You must also remember that at one point or another Iran, Anatolia, Syria 
and Palestine were also a part of Mesopotamia. Textiles, if they survived, I 
would bet are at Cambridge. :)

Chiara


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian


> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 10:19 pm, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
>> Funny you should mention that book.  I just so happen to have made a
>> photocopy on it in its entirety when I ran across it for the first time
>> a few years ago in a small town library.  Since it was written in 1920,
>> I've wondered ever since how accurate it is.  Incredibly detailed, so
>> I've been wondering.  any consensus among you all?
>
> Shrug.  It's hard to say.  To my knowledge, there aren't really any
> archaeological textile finds (as opposed to jewelry and clay tablets) in 
> what
> was then Mesopotamia....  If I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to hear about it!
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
> of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

Katy,

I am coming in late on the topic.  Is this a 1920s Egyptian style beaded 
gown?  Those were fashionable then.  I haven't seen an ancient Egyptian 
beaded dress.

I couldn't get this webpage link to work:
http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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> Two programmes on British TV over Christmas showed Victorian 
> brides in sleeveless dresses. One was the film of "Nicholas 
> Nickleby", the other a version of "Dracula". Dammit, you wear 
> DAY clothes to a wedding! (or used to.)

I thought that too, however in my most recent research project covering the elliptical hoop though the early bustle (1865-1874) a noticeable percentage of wedding dresses were in the evening dress style. No more then 25%, but a noticeable percentage anyway.
	-sunny

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Subject: RE:  victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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> Two programmes on British TV over Christmas showed Victorian 
> brides in sleeveless dresses. One was the film of "Nicholas 
> Nickleby", the other a version of "Dracula". Dammit, you wear 
> DAY clothes to a wedding! (or used to.)

I thought that too, however in my most recent research project covering the elliptical hoop though the early bustle (1865-1874) a noticeable percentage of wedding dresses were in the evening dress style. No more then 25%, but a noticeable percentage anyway.
	-sunny

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] movie costumes--Egyptian
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Status: RO

Okay, I caught up on the topic... I'm sorry for my stupid question.

I am wondering if these Egyptian dresses that were found in the 1920s were 
what made beaded dresses in the 1920s so fashionable.  From my research, 
they appear in fashion around the same time as the dates of the beaded 
Egyptian dress finds.

I am studying and will start soon documenting actual beading patterns from 
the 1920s dresses.  It is amazing to me how some of the dresses from the 
1920s survived with the chiffon in tact.  We have some in the fashion 
collection that barely survived and the only thing they are good for is to 
document their patterns.  You can not even tell what these dresses 
originally looked like. We have one dress that has about 15 lbs. of metal 
beadwork.  It has survived well.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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Status: RO

> > Two programmes on British TV over Christmas showed Victorian
> > brides in sleeveless dresses. One was the film of "Nicholas
> > Nickleby", the other a version of "Dracula". Dammit, you wear
> > DAY clothes to a wedding! (or used to.)

> I thought that too, however in my most recent research project covering
the elliptical hoop
> though the early bustle (1865-1874) a noticeable percentage of wedding
dresses were in the
> evening dress style. No more then 25%, but a noticeable percentage anyway.

I found it's usually respectable middle class that wears day dress (and
probably working class too as I suspect there wasn't much opportunity to go
to the opera or the odd ball....) and the aristocracy could wear off the
shoulder and the like. I was mostly looking at 1870s and 1880s there. Most
of the brides on the Musee McCorde site are wearing clothing to the neck.

None of the fashion plates show the lower necked style for weddings (though
there are rather more open necks for day wear.)

Michaela de Bruce
http://glittersweet.com

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> I have a question for you 19th century types, born out of 
> completely idle curiosity.  This Christmas, I was given a 
> lovely bracelet comprising different buttons from the 1870s.  
> They are all about 1/2 inch in diameter, and have 
> surprisingly complex and lovely designs in them.  They are 
> made of cut steel and brass, with occasional tiny flecks of 
> what looks like marcasite, and are fairly hefty in weight for 
> their size (because of the metal, I'm guessing).
> What on earth would something like that have been used on? 
> The garment fabric would have to be pretty substantial to not 
> deform or tear from the weight....
> --Sue in Montana

Buttons were a reasonably common decoration for visiting dresses (e.g. fancy day dresses) - by decoration I mean used in places other then the center front or back opening. On the vintage garments I own that use button decoration (one of them is about 1878) the buttons are not functional and therefore can have extra re-enforcement, as well as simply having less stress then a button with an associated buttonhole. Wool (I have both a super fine weight and a tweed-jacket weight bodice in my collection), velvet, silk taffeta and silk faille were all common fabrics to make visiting dresses from - of those taffeta is the only one that is really fragile. Also, almost all bodices (and many skirts) were fully lined (usually with a very light weight brown-ish polished cotton - I assume it was their equivalent of cheap muslin since most linings are made of it.)

One other comment - beyond the cotton lining the 4 day bodices I own from the 1860-1870s do not have any extra reinforcement at the center front openings. In one there is a bone placed beneath the buttons below the bust-shelf. But none of the others have that. It is simply the fashion fabric plus the cotton lining folded on itself once, with a tiny hem tucking the cut edges underneath.

Hope that helps :-)
	-sunny

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Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 09:02:10 +0000
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Name of a hat?
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Susan Carroll-Clark wrote:

>Eleanor, the Countess of Leicester, sister of Henry III and 
>definitely a Plantagenet, wears one on her seal.  The seal also has
the 
>stylized "planta genet" (a sort of viney thing with a pod on the end),


It's not a vine, it's the broom plant ("genista" in Latin), a shrub
with yellow pea-like flowers.


Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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Status: RO

Greetings--

Kate M Bunting wrote:
> Susan Carroll-Clark wrote:
>
> It's not a vine, it's the broom plant ("genista" in Latin), a shrub
> with yellow pea-like flowers.
>   
I knew it was a real plant...just couldn't remember which one and the 
corresponding Latin--thanks!

Susan
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy4@comcast.net>
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Status: RO

At 11:11 AM 1/2/2007, you wrote:
>When thinking realistic, what do you think you will finish of 
>historical costumes in 2007?>>


I am planning to finish the blue velvet pearled-and-spangled 
Elizabethan, a Spanish 16th century doublet gown, and several tunics 
and linen undergarments for Pennsic. Realistically, this is what I 
believe I can accomplish. Anything else, of course, is just an extra treat!

Dianne


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Status: RO

> >When thinking realistic, what do you think you will
> finish of historical costumes in 2007?>>

I hope to finish a new outfit for Ansel to wear at
Bristol this summer. 

Which brings up another subject. I know some of you on
the list attend the Bristol Faire. Ansel has brought
last summer's outfit home and has requested some
changes/adjustments be made. 

If anybody remembers him from the summer - any
suggestions for improvements? I know the crotch length
needs to be longer since he ripped out all the lacing
and was forced to resort to suspenders to keep the
slops up. And the doublet needs to fit better across
the back. The codpiece seems to be fine, since it got
some sort of award for "best male accessory"????

All of these changes need to be accomplished before he
leaves for York, England to study for the next 6
months. He should arrive back just in time to start
Faire again - so once again he will not be available
for fittings!!

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA
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Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:29:54 +0000
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: [H-cost] French translation for Bjarne
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Status: RO

Bjarne,
In effect, they're apologising for the delay, but one of the books you
ordered has not yet been supplied to them by the publisher, and they beg
you to be patient for a few more days. They will let you know by e-mail
when they can fulfil your order.

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian wedding clothes
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Status: RO

Michaela wrote:

>> I thought that too, however in my most recent research project
covering
the elliptical hoop
>> though the early bustle (1865-1874) a noticeable percentage of
wedding
dresses were in the
>> evening dress style. No more then 25%, but a noticeable percentage
anyway.

>I found it's usually respectable middle class that wears day dress
(and
>probably working class too as I suspect there wasn't much opportunity
to go
>to the opera or the odd ball....) and the aristocracy could wear off
the
>shoulder and the like. I was mostly looking at 1870s and 1880s there.
Most
>of the brides on the Musee McCorde site are wearing clothing to the
neck.

Thanks, Sunny and Michaela. Perhaps the Dracula bride was OK then, but
the Nickleby wedding was middle-class and early Victorian.

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:15:42 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Status: RO

Warnicke's biog has some theories I disagree with: Anne was the eldest,
not Mary, brother George was possibly gay and the premature son Anne
miscarried was probably malformed(therefore in those days deemed a
monster)and Anne's fault(its always the woman's fault!)which led Henry
to believe she was a witch. Warnicke, however, does give a convincing
argument for the traditional 1507 birthdate for Anne, although that
would make Mary very, very young to have an affair with Henry. Most
historians nowdays think Anne was born between 1500-1502.

My own theory is that Anne was probably born in 1507 and went first to
the Burgundian court at age 6 or 7. Warnicke points out that another of
Henry's courtier's sent his daughter Jane to the Burgundian court at the
same age. The regent Marguerite had English blood through her descent
from Edward IV's sister.Henry VIII's younger sister, Mary, was
originally engaged to Marguerite's nephew(?), so it could be that Mary
Boleyn would have been a lady-in-waiting or maid of honor to Mary Tudor,
a higher position than just being in the household of Marguerite. When
the Burgundian marriage plans/treaty failed, Mary Tudor was made the
bride of Louis, King of France, and Mary was in her household that
traveled to France. Sir Thomas Boleyn swiftly removed Anne from Burgundy
and secured her a place in the French royal household.

However, the whole Anne as a scheming Monica Lewinsky and Henry as a
besotted Bill Clinton(it is glaringly obvious in the novel)was Gregory's
take.

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Dor Mous
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:18 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl

That's the problem for me.They make out Philippa Gregory practically IS
a historian now and a lot of people believe the hype. The novel was
based on the highly controversial work of real historian, Retha
Warnicke, whose crackpot theories have been lambasted many times.
   
  All the factual inaccuracies were Ms Gregory's, and there are plenty:
basic facts, English culture, clothing etc.  Even Mary Boleyn's not
knowing how to make cook or make cheese was all wrong.  Running a
household was standard training for any English gentlewoman in the 16th
century, even social climbers like the Boleyns. The distant, 'not
getting her hands dirty' lady was a development of later ages, and Tudor
ladies knew how to do everything, even when they could afford to pay
someone else to do it.
   
  I understand that this is a film, based on a work of fiction.  I'm
happy that some changes will be made to cover dramatic license and
furthering the story. This applies to costume too so I'm happy with some
costume inaccuracy. But these costumes are just ugly. The French hood
fronts are too small. Plain unflattering to both lead actresses. 'Anne
of the Thousand Days', for all its many factual and costume
inaccuracies, at least did Genevieve Bujold the courtesy of costuming
her elegantly, and her inaccurate French hood fronts suited her.
   
  Never mind the dresses, I'm not sure I can bear a whole film watching
Nathalie Portman and Scarlett Johannson with those things on their
heads.  I don't think it will have the comedy value of 'Shakespeare in
Love' or the fine performances of 'Elizabeth', two other glaringly
inaccurate but fairly enjoyable films.

h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:
    Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:26:50 -0500
From: monica spence 
Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
To: Historical Costume 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I read the book too, but it did not make me crazy. It is so easy to make
a mistake about clothing when you are a writer with little or no
background in clothing history. I pretty much ignore that stuff.

 Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 
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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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In a message dated 1/4/2007 1:01:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
sunshine_buchler@agilent.com writes:

> Two  programmes on British TV over Christmas showed Victorian 
> brides in  sleeveless dresses. One was the film of "Nicholas 
> Nickleby", the  other a version of "Dracula". Dammit, you wear 
> DAY clothes to a  wedding! (or used to.)

I thought that too, however in my most recent  research project covering the 
elliptical hoop though the early bustle  (1865-1874) a noticeable percentage 
of wedding dresses were in the evening  dress style. No more then 25%, but a 
noticeable percentage anyway.
-sunny



**********************************
 
Perhaps 25% of brides were getting married in the evening instead of during  
the day.
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From: "Gilbert" <tgilbert737@roadrunner.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:31:24 -0500
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Status: RO

>> >When thinking realistic, what do you think you will
>> finish of historical costumes in 2007?>>

I hope to finish that $#& Empire Gown. I finished it once, only to find that 
the blue border I chose to offset the off-white ground of the bodice piece 
was a little too overwhelming, and made the bodice front look rather like 
the black bars seen on TV covering up the naughty bits. Not quite the effect 
for which I was aiming... Argh...

Then, dare I speak of another project before this one is done, when my 
second book is published, I may tackle a dress that is circa 1775--this time 
with a pattern someone else made (I need a break from making my own for a 
moment). But, on the other hand, as that book is only *half* historical, I 
may not...

Marjorie

Marjorie Gilbert
author of THE RETURN, a historical novel set in Georgian England
www.marjoriegilbert.net
Creating a Circa 1798 - 1805 Empire Gown
http://marjoriegilbert.net/album_30_028.htm>


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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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In a message dated 1/4/2007 11:29:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
AlbertCat@aol.com writes:

Perhaps  25% of brides were getting married in the evening instead of during  
 
the day.



*****************
 
I didn't mean that to sound as snarky as it does....forgive me.
 
But it does make me think....
 
Where might the bride be going after the wedding? To the train station to  
commence the honeymoon? To a big whoop-de-do dinner after the ceremony? How  
might that affect things?
It's not 'til like the 1830's that special wedding dresses come into play  in 
the 1st place, isn't it?
 
Remember in "Age of Innocence" [1870's] it was expected that May should  
again wear her wedding dress at least once in the 1st year of marriage. She  wears 
it to the opera, so it was no day dress.
 
For "Nicholas Nickleby" the idea of a sleeveless dress for any occasion at  
all is strange. Was this the film that came out a couple of years ago. That  
thing had some of the worst, laziest costuming I've ever seen! The 8 hour  stage 
production on film from the 1980's has much superior  costumes.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
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Status: RO

Dear Helen/Aiden,

I also received my disc, just before New Year's. I haven't had the
time to check it out yet, but I've brought it to work to view at
lunch. Thank you very much!
LynnD

On 1/3/07, elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net
<elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net> wrote:
> Helen/Aidan, I happily received the CD-ROM just after Christmas!
>
> Thank you for the disc!
>
> Happy Happy dance...
>
> Elena/Gia
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net>
>
> > The catalogue is gone, but if you send me your mailing address, I'll send
> > you a CD-Rom of the scans of all the pages.
> > -Helen/Aidan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Voncile W. Dudley"
> > To: "Historical Costume"
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I'm late checking my email. I would love to have any books that needs
> > > a good home especially garments from the 15th century up.
> > > Lady Von
> > > Hope I am not to late!
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Helen Pinto"
> > > To: "Historical Costume"
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:18 PM
> > > Subject: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
> > >
> > >
> > >> In the process of (finally) unpacking my books, I've been finding things
> > >> that could use a home other than mine. I have a Metropolitan Museum of
> > >> Art Bulletin from back in the days when they sent members these glossy
> > >> books every quarter. It's from the costume collection and contains large,
> > >> high-quality pictures of garments from 1695 through the early 1950's,
> > >> including microphotographs of some of the embroidered detail of the
> > >> garments. It's nice to look at, but way past anything I'm really
> > >> interested in.
> > >> So... I will scan and send photos of anything that someone fancies, and
> > >> the whole thing can belong to the first person who asks for it. (You have
> > >> two weeks to ask for the pictures, then I'll mail it.) The highlights:
> > >>
> > >> - Complete embroidered woman's dress from 1695
> > >> - Four men's 18th c embroidered coats, one uncut, one with original
> > >> embroidery cartoon, one with pants and vest
> > >> - Men's banyans
> > >> - Assorted women's 18c dresses, one with panniers, most sack-backed, all
> > >> embroidered or hand-painted, 1740's - 1795
> > >> - Assorted women's 19c outfits, day dresses, evening wear, several from
> > >> each decade
> > >> - Assorted women's 20c outfits, evening wear, suits, etc, up to the 50's
> > >>
> > >> -Helen/Aidan
> > >>
> > >>
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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	<459D1D7202000014000C8407@Cluster1_gwise3_server.derby.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [H-cost] French translation for Bjarne
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Status: RO

Dear Kate,

Million thanks for your great help.
I feared it might be they couldnt get it after all, but it surely is worth 
waiting for.
Its the book about Marie Antoinettes wardrobe.

Many many thanks

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: [H-cost] French translation for Bjarne


> Bjarne,
> In effect, they're apologising for the delay, but one of the books you
> ordered has not yet been supplied to them by the publisher, and they beg
> you to be patient for a few more days. They will let you know by e-mail
> when they can fulfil your order.
>
> Kate Bunting
> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film
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Status: RO

> I found it's usually respectable middle class that wears day 
> dress (and
> probably working class too as I suspect there wasn't much 
> opportunity to go
> to the opera or the odd ball....) and the aristocracy could 
> wear off the
> shoulder and the like. I was mostly looking at 1870s and 
> 1880s there. Most
> of the brides on the Musee McCorde site are wearing clothing 
> to the neck.

I agree that all the instances of evening-style wedding dresses are decidedly upper class - though not just the aristocracy, as there is an extant example from Chicago (or Cincinnati -- one of the Midwestern cities that starts with a "C"...). I suppose my argument depends on a very narrow definition of aristocracy to mean those whose families are lords - when you start talking about the "American aristocracy" it becomes impossible (imho) to differentiate the aristocracy from the upper class. 

> None of the fashion plates show the lower necked style for 
> weddings (though
> there are rather more open necks for day wear.)

Actually I found at least one fashion plate that showed an evening-style wedding dress. It's from "Le Monde Elegant", the September, 1870 issue. (Shown in Vyvyan Holland's _Hand Coloured Fashion Plates 1770 to 1899_, pg. 126). I've been surprised by how many fashion plates and extant wedding dresses fall into the "dinner dress" style with an open "V" or rectangular neckline - very similar to the day dresses, but day dresses and visiting dresses rarely seem to have an open neckline.
	-sunny

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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:14:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
From: "Chiara Francesca" <chiara@io.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

I often wondered the same thing.

My dad is the curator of a very small south texas town museum. There
are a few victorian wedding dresses in there and they are not of the
same design.

I took pictures but the glass they have on there is very reflective
and they did not come out well.

My favorite has a tulle that is beaded over laying the dress ... it
is just beautiful.

I will throw up the pictures if anyone wants to see them. Just let
me know.

Chiara

On Thu, January 4, 2007 10:44 am, AlbertCat@aol.com said:
>
> In a message dated 1/4/2007 11:29:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> AlbertCat@aol.com writes:
>
> Perhaps  25% of brides were getting married in the evening instead
> of during
>
> the day.
>
>
>
> *****************
>
> I didn't mean that to sound as snarky as it does....forgive me.
>
> But it does make me think....
>
> Where might the bride be going after the wedding? To the train
> station to
> commence the honeymoon? To a big whoop-de-do dinner after the
> ceremony? How
> might that affect things?
> It's not 'til like the 1830's that special wedding dresses come into
> play  in
> the 1st place, isn't it?
>
> Remember in "Age of Innocence" [1870's] it was expected that May
> should
> again wear her wedding dress at least once in the 1st year of
> marriage. She  wears
> it to the opera, so it was no day dress.
>
> For "Nicholas Nickleby" the idea of a sleeveless dress for any
> occasion at
> all is strange. Was this the film that came out a couple of years
> ago. That
> thing had some of the worst, laziest costuming I've ever seen! The 8
> hour  stage
> production on film from the 1980's has much superior  costumes.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>




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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Status: RO


A little prowling online turned up a teaching package from the Petrie
museum that includes a photo and description of the bead-net dress (among
many other items) and detailed directions for making one. I'm sure that
the directions are modernized, but they're complex enough they clearly
aren't meant to be Halloween-costume level.

http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/Textiles%20in%20the%20Petrie%20Museum.doc

--Robin



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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] french translation again
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Status: RO

I dont know who to get help from except maybe one of you.
I ordered books from the french amazon, and they sended me a note in french 
off cause.
Saying:
 Notification d'un retard de livraison

Numéro de commande Chapitre : 1684054
Numéro de commande Amazon : 736-2550099-8381908


Chèr(e) Drews Leif,


Nous avons bien reçu votre commande du 28/12/2006 14:58:00.

Malgré tous nos efforts, nous n'avons pas été en mesure de vous expédier le 
ou les articles à ce jour. Nous nous en excusons vivement. Nous mettons tout 
en oeuvre pour pouvoir vous les expédier dans les meilleurs délais.
L'article ou l'un des articles de votre commande ne nous a pas encore été 
livré par l'éditeur ou par nos fournisseurs. Nous vous prions de bien 
vouloir patienter encore quelques jours.

Dès que possible, nous vous préviendrons par e-mail de l'état d'avancement 
de la commande et de sa date d'expédition.

Merci de votre compréhension.

Could a kind sould help me out with this?

Many many thanks in advance



Bjarne



.





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Met Museum Bulletin
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Glad to hear it got there; enjoy, 
                    -Helen

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From: Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:14:46 -0500
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Status: RO

P.S. Surely that's a gun with attached bayonet over his shoulder?
--Ruth Anne

On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Ruth Anne Baumgartner wrote:

> It looks to me like a border guard or castle guard at a small  
> guardhouse. Lovely helmet. Halt!
> Happy new year, everyone!
> --Ruth Anne Baumgartner
> scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
>
> On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
>> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject
>>
>>
>>> Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
>>>
>>>  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's  
>>> enough people on this list who will appreciate these too!
>>>
>>>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm
>>>
>>>  Chris R.
>>>
>>>  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's  
>>> ball gowns I WILL finish :)
>>
>> Dear Chris,
>> Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
>> Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the  
>> small house to the left?
>> Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille  
>> embroidery.
>> I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying  
>> "When this you see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.
>>
>> Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.
>>
>> Bjarne
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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  Yep, incredibly cool.  I made a large soft sculture doll that wears infant size clothing.  When you start the doll you don't know the sex until it just takes on its own as it is finished.  Can't say going to make a girl or boy because what you get is what you get just like real life.
   
  Enjoyed your site.
  Lady Von
  
Yeah, it's incredibly cool. (The same sort of technique seems to 
have been used for beaded-net sarcophagus covers that would include a 
facial portrait of the deceased.) I had fun making one for my 
"ancient Egyptian doll" -- see digthatdoll/egyptianwoman.html>. It's about 2/3 of the way down the 
page. (The doll is about 10" tall.)

Heather




  Lady Von
   
  http://www.wildthangstreasures.com
   

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007  OT on this subject
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Status: RO

Hi again,
I gues you have to study many embroideries with motifs of persons, before 
you get the right eyes to read it.
But your suggestion, makes scence.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lauren Walker" <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject


>I suppose this is going to be a Rorshach -- I don't see an angel with  a 
>gun, but a spotted dog standing guard (the structure being dog  house/guard 
>house?) with a gun. But then, one man's angel could be  another woman's 
>spotted dog, I suppose...
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
>> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007 OT on this subject
>>
>>
>>> Hi and we want to wish you all the very, very best for the New Year!
>>>
>>>  I thought of you specifically Bjarne, but I don't doubt there's  enough 
>>> people on this list who will appreciate these too!
>>>
>>>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_80.htm
>>>
>>>  Chris R.
>>>
>>>  As for historical costumes for this year?  I have two 1880's ball 
>>> gowns I WILL finish :)
>>
>> Dear Chris,
>> Oh many many thanks for that link. How charming they are.
>> Dont quite understand is it an angel standing with a gun? at the  small 
>> house to the left?
>> Quite interresting to study the closeup pictures of the chenille 
>> embroidery.
>> I have a picture of danish garthers with english text, saying "When  this 
>> you see, remember me!" But i think it was very used.
>>
>> Thanks again, and good luck with your ball gowns.
>>
>> Bjarne
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007
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Status: RO


> >When thinking realistic, what do you think you will finish of 
> >historical costumes in 2007?

I don't do much sewing these days, but I have a few must-do projects for
the next few months. I have been dieting for health reasons, and after
dropping 18 pounds have found that the Gothic fitted dress I use for my
lectures is now too large for my new figure. I would like to re-make it
before I speak at CostumeCon at the end of March. In a pinch I can wear my
last lecture dress, about a decade old now, which once again fits me, but
it is not ideal, as it is silk, and I like to demonstrate the effects of
wool, which was historically more typical. (Sue C. will remember the silk
dress as the one I wore in Boise.)

However, I also want to make a sillier costume just-for-fun for CostumeCon
-- who knows when I will have another excuse to do it. Can I do them both
by the end of March? Don't know; I have journal editing and an article to
write, in addition to my day job.

CostumeCon info here:
http://www.cc25.net/start.htm

And info on my full day of lectures here:
http://www.cc25.net/netherton.htm

I'd love to know if I'll be seeing any h-costume people there!

--Robin


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From: "ann marie" <bestinterests@gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] challenges of 16th century dress differences
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Status: RO

Please assist me with your expertise in determining the differences between
the French and English fashions of the 1560's for women.  How did the skirts
differ in shape and length?  Bodice lines?  Fabric choices?  Embelishments?
Sleeves attached or detached for changing?  Recognizing that this may be a
broad question, please be patient in helping me understand these differences
across social classes.

Thank you
Ann Morton

-- 
Live Well * Laugh Often * Love Much
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Subject: [h-cost] velvet question
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Status: RO

On a Norse list some people are trying to find out whether velvet or velvet
like material was around during the "Viking" age.
There is something about Egypt having a pile type fabric but someone send
that it was totally different from velvet.
So does anyone have the skinny on the subject?
Thank you,
De


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From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] challenges of 16th century dress differences
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Status: RO

ann marie wrote:
> Please assist me with your expertise in determining the differences between
> the French and English fashions of the 1560's for women.  How did the 
> skirts
> differ in shape and length?  Bodice lines?  Fabric choices?  Embelishments?
> Sleeves attached or detached for changing?  Recognizing that this may be a
> broad question, please be patient in helping me understand these 
> differences
> across social classes.


That's a very broad question. Herees a couple pictures to help you in 
your analysis:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=1497
Unknown woman about 1569 in French style clothing.


And some English in style from about the same time:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=4208&searchid=44981

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=4207&searchid=44981





Dawn

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] french translation again
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Status: RO

      Bjarne-
      Here's a translation to English:

      Notification of a delay in delivery
      Chapter Order Number 1684054
      Amazon Order Number 736-2550099-8381908 

      Dear Drews Leif,
      We have received your order of 12/28/2006:14:48:00.
      Despite all our efforts, we were not able to send you the 
      items at this time.  We are very sorry.  We will make every
      effort to send them to you as soon as possible.  The item
      or one of the items in your order has not been delivered to
      us yet by the publisher or our suppliers.  Please be patient 
      for a few days.  As soon as possible, we will notify you by
      e-mail with the status of your order and a delivery date.
      Thank you for your understanding. 


Hope this helps,
                         -Helen/Aidan

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:08:08 -0500
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Status: RO

On Thursday 04 January 2007 2:59 am, Robin Netherton wrote:
> A little prowling online turned up a teaching package from the Petrie
> museum that includes a photo and description of the bead-net dress (among
> many other items) and detailed directions for making one. I'm sure that
> the directions are modernized, but they're complex enough they clearly
> aren't meant to be Halloween-costume level.
>
> http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/Textiles%20in%20the%20Petrie%20Museum.doc

Neat!  Thank you.

(One more project for the "future projects" pile.)  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] velvet question
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Status: RO

I haven't heard of the Egyptian piled fabric, but as far as I know, velvet
was invented well *after* the Viking Age, so no velvet Viking poofy pants!
;oD
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:38 PM
Subject: [h-cost] velvet question


> On a Norse list some people are trying to find out whether velvet or
velvet
> like material was around during the "Viking" age.
> There is something about Egypt having a pile type fabric but someone send
> that it was totally different from velvet.
> So does anyone have the skinny on the subject?
> Thank you,
> De


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Status: RO

On Thursday 04 January 2007 1:11 am, Penny Ladnier wrote:
> Okay, I caught up on the topic... I'm sorry for my stupid question.
>
> I am wondering if these Egyptian dresses that were found in the 1920s were
> what made beaded dresses in the 1920s so fashionable.  From my research,
> they appear in fashion around the same time as the dates of the beaded
> Egyptian dress finds.

They do, but the "beaded dresses" Rosalind Hall (?) Janessen talks about are 
significantly different than the finely beaded creations of the 1920s.  They 
are a coarse mesh, made of either linen thread or large beads.  Some of the 
western "beaded dresses" may incorporate motifs from Egyptian pictorial art, 
but I don't think the actual ancient "beaded dresses" were that big a factor.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:01:48 -0500
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Status: RO

Albert Cat,

I have etiquette books from the later part of the Victorian period.  They 
suggest that the bride wear her wearing dress for the first year after the 
wedding.  She is to wear to special events.

My grandmother married in 1901 and had a nice white wedding dress.  She wore 
it church frequently.  BTW, she was of modest means.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007
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Status: RO

I do remember, although mostly I remember you talking about silk fabric and
how it works with the whole GFD engineering ideas.  You actually showed us
a couple of different ones, including one that was wool in some sort of
diamond pattern? (foggy memory on the details).
--Sue, who is going to be dabbling in the 13th century this year, and if she
still fits into her GFD pattern, will be making one of those.  Finally.  ;o)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2007


>
> > >When thinking realistic, what do you think you will finish of
> > >historical costumes in 2007?
>
> I don't do much sewing these days, but I have a few must-do projects for
> the next few months. I have been dieting for health reasons, and after
> dropping 18 pounds have found that the Gothic fitted dress I use for my
> lectures is now too large for my new figure. I would like to re-make it
> before I speak at CostumeCon at the end of March. In a pinch I can wear my
> last lecture dress, about a decade old now, which once again fits me, but
> it is not ideal, as it is silk, and I like to demonstrate the effects of
> wool, which was historically more typical. (Sue C. will remember the silk
> dress as the one I wore in Boise.)


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Status: RO



Penny Ladnier wrote:
> Albert Cat,
> 
> I have etiquette books from the later part of the Victorian period.  
> They suggest that the bride wear her wearing dress for the first year 
> after the wedding.  She is to wear to special events.
> 

Yes, but often as an evening dress, and not necessarily in the same form 
as when used as a wedding dress. It was not uncommon to make the wedding 
dress so that it could easily be transformed into an evening dress 
either permanently or at will (removable parts).

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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greetings,
The pile fabrics were much less like velvet and much more like shag  
rugs.  There are pile fabrics found in late antique/ early medieval  
in northern Europe. So while the velvet poofy pants wouldn't be  
correct and period, poofy pants made of shag would. >:D

Althea

On Jan 4, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> I haven't heard of the Egyptian piled fabric, but as far as I know,  
> velvet
> was invented well *after* the Viking Age, so no velvet Viking poofy  
> pants!
> ;oD
> --Sue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:38 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] velvet question
>
>
>> On a Norse list some people are trying to find out whether velvet or
> velvet
>> like material was around during the "Viking" age.
>> There is something about Egypt having a pile type fabric but  
>> someone send
>> that it was totally different from velvet.
>> So does anyone have the skinny on the subject?
>> Thank you,
>> De
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Althea Turner
althea@alfalfapress.com

"Ignorant themselves of the forces of nature and wanting to have  
company in their ignorance, they don't want people to look into  
anything; they want us to believe like peasants and not ask the  
reasons behind things."
William of Conches, 12th century


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On Thursday 04 January 2007 10:34 pm, Althea Turner wrote:
> greetings,
> The pile fabrics were much less like velvet and much more like shag
> rugs.  There are pile fabrics found in late antique/ early medieval
> in northern Europe. So while the velvet poofy pants wouldn't be
> correct and period, poofy pants made of shag would. >:D

Not really.  The northern European "shag rug" fabric was used for cloaks.  I 
don't know of any other usage for them.

The Egyptian pile fabric looks more like terry cloth.  I'll see if I can find 
a picture on line.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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of the me projects, rather than the work ones???  (ie the ones I'm  doing cos 
I want to not beacause I'm getting paid).
 
judging by previous experience, not a single one.  :o)
 
That said, my nice accountant boyfriend just worked out that apparently I  
made around three hundred individual garments last year, (bearing in mind that  
some of these were coifs and aprons etc), so I' not doing too badly.....
 
debs
 
happy new year btw
 



> >When thinking realistic, what do you think you will  finish of 
> >historical costumes in 2007?


 
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From: MaggiRos <maggiros@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] challenges of 16th century dress differences
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And don't forget this, in the same group from the
Tate.

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=1497&searchid=44981&currow=2&maxrows=5

The thing about home-grown English Elizabethan style
is that there's not much in the way of it. It's
largely borrowed from French, Italian, and Spanish.

MaggiRos
The Elizabethan World is at http://elizabethan.org
--- Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:

> ann marie wrote:
> > Please assist me with your expertise in
> determining the differences between
> > the French and English fashions of the 1560's for
> women.  How did the 
> > skirts
> > differ in shape and length?  Bodice lines?  Fabric
> choices?  Embelishments?
> > Sleeves attached or detached for changing? 
> Recognizing that this may be a
> > broad question, please be patient in helping me
> understand these 
> > differences
> > across social classes.
> 
> 
> That's a very broad question. Herees a couple
> pictures to help you in 
> your analysis:
> 
> http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=1497
> Unknown woman about 1569 in French style clothing.
> 
> 
> And some English in style from about the same time:
> 
>
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=4208&searchid=44981
> 
>
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=4207&searchid=44981
> 
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Status: RO

AlbertCat wrote:

>Where might the bride be going after the wedding? To the train station
to  
>commence the honeymoon? To a big whoop-de-do dinner after the
ceremony? How  
>might that affect things?
>It's not 'til like the 1830's that special wedding dresses come into
play  in 
>the 1st place, isn't it?
 
>Remember in "Age of Innocence" [1870's] it was expected that May
should  
>again wear her wedding dress at least once in the 1st year of
marriage. She  wears 
>it to the opera, so it was no day dress.
 
>For "Nicholas Nickleby" the idea of a sleeveless dress for any
occasion at  
>all is strange. Was this the film that came out a couple of years ago.
That  
>thing had some of the worst, laziest costuming I've ever seen! The 8
hour  stage 
>production on film from the 1980's has much superior  costumes.

Yes, it was the recent film that I saw on TV.

I was thinking of the 20th century convention of men wearing morning
dress at a formal wedding. There are (or used to be) legal restrictions
in the UK on the time of day a marriage ceremony can take place. Until
the current vogue for evening wedding parties started, it was usual to
get married in the late morning, then have the wedding "breakfast". In
the afternoon the bride would change into her "going-away" outfit and
the couple would leave for the honeymoon. I was assuming that these
traditions evolved in the Victorian era.


Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Schaube
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Status: RO

Hi all,
   
  I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
  it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", which is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many different things. 
  It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the same. 
  How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind of dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
   
  Thanks,
   
  Zuzana

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
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Status: RO

Koehlers A History of Costume have a pattern cut of a Schaube for a man.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zuzana Kraemerova" <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Schaube


> Hi all,
>
>  I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this kind 
> of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>  it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or 
> something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", 
> which is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many 
> different things.
>  It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as 
> the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the 
> same.
>  How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind of 
> dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Zuzana
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Status: RO

>   I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this
kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>   it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or
something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", which
is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many
different things.

Sort of but robe generally (should) refer to a garment that hangs from the
shoulders as opposed to something that fits the torso or else  fulfills the
function of a modern coat (which can be semi fitted to the body but usually
not form fitting.) Surcoat, Ropa these are similar items of the 16thC.
Schaube is used in this sort of generalised term usually too.

>   It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as
the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the
same.

Not always shorter, it was many different lengths and it is possible they
all had different names depending on the specific use. Women wore them and
they can be seen in many images. I collected several but it's so hard to
hunt them out in the first place I wouldn't really know where to direct you!

>   How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind of
dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?

The surcoats in Patterns of Fashion aren't too bad to go by. Then the Ropa
in Alcega are also of a similar design. Many men wear them in portraits by
German artists, and there are a number of them for women but they are
usually seen full length in woodcuts or illuminations etc.

Michaela
who just handed on her Scahube as it was much too big in the shoulders.
Super snuggly and warm though.
http://glittersweet.com

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Status: RO

Reading this thread, and the questions about necklines and sleeves, I 
wonder did it have any effect that a wedding dress is made for going to 
church, in the first place?  Even quite recently, many people would 
frown upon a wedding dress that was off the shoulder or sleeveless - it 
might be covered up with a shawl or bolero jacket for the ceremony, and 
then uncovered for the reception.  What was the dress code for church in 
Victorian times - I suspect it was much more severe in middle and lower 
classes, but what could an upper-class bride get away with?

Jean


Penny Ladnier <penny@costumegallery.com> wrote
>Albert Cat,
>
>I have etiquette books from the later part of the Victorian period. 
>They suggest that the bride wear her wearing dress for the first year 
>after the wedding.  She is to wear to special events.
>
>My grandmother married in 1901 and had a nice white wedding dress. She 
>wore it church frequently.  BTW, she was of modest means.
>
>Penny Ladnier,
>Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
>www.costumegallery.com
>www.costumelibrary.com
>www.costumeclassroom.com
>www.costumeencyclopedia.com
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Kay Shelton <delasue@yahoo.com>
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Seamstress in Houston?
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Status: RO

I'm hoping someone on this list will know a seamstress
in Houston willing to make a wedding dress for my
future sister-in-law.  The wedding is planned for
October.  She knows the style she wants and she wants
silk satin.  She's a lovely person who has a very nice
figure.  She'll look great in it.  I told her I'd ask
her, as y'all are apt to know all the sewers in town. 
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Kay

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
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Status: RO

How about the garment Christine of Denmark wears. Its made of fur. Holbein 
painted her, scroll down to find it on the right side..............
http://www.italy.dk/turisme/lombardia/milano/mi-castello.htm

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube


>>   I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this
> kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>>   it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or
> something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", 
> which
> is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many
> different things.
>
> Sort of but robe generally (should) refer to a garment that hangs from the
> shoulders as opposed to something that fits the torso or else  fulfills 
> the
> function of a modern coat (which can be semi fitted to the body but 
> usually
> not form fitting.) Surcoat, Ropa these are similar items of the 16thC.
> Schaube is used in this sort of generalised term usually too.
>
>>   It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as
> the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the
> same.
>
> Not always shorter, it was many different lengths and it is possible they
> all had different names depending on the specific use. Women wore them and
> they can be seen in many images. I collected several but it's so hard to
> hunt them out in the first place I wouldn't really know where to direct 
> you!
>
>>   How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind 
>> of
> dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
>
> The surcoats in Patterns of Fashion aren't too bad to go by. Then the Ropa
> in Alcega are also of a similar design. Many men wear them in portraits by
> German artists, and there are a number of them for women but they are
> usually seen full length in woodcuts or illuminations etc.
>
> Michaela
> who just handed on her Scahube as it was much too big in the shoulders.
> Super snuggly and warm though.
> http://glittersweet.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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Subject: [h-cost] RE: victorian wedding clothes, 
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Status: RO

You have probably seen these but just in case, Victorian wedding dresses
http://tinyurl.com/y2eg4f

http://tinyurl.com/y92ao6

http://tinyurl.com/y5aaga

http://search.famsf.org:8080/view.shtml?record=210781&=list&=271&=dre

http://tinyurl.com/yajfmh

http://tinyurl.com/y4p2mu

http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/yyeltz

http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/hours/marriage.htm

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:35:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

  Thanks for help! 
  Gonna search through our art museum library... 
  But the more I search, the more I'm confused about what the word really means. Now I've found an explanation in one of the Czech history of costume books and it says that the "alchubba" was a long dress of mohammeds, opened in front. In 12th century it came to Europe with the crusades. They say that the word later changed to "Schaube", which was a large cloak worn in the entire Europe, especially in the time of Reformation. So the famous Henry VIII-portrait-like robes are probably those called Schaube. Are there some resources about the original garment? The arabian one?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "michaela" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube


>> I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this
> kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>> it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or
> something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", 
> which
> is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many
> different things.
>
> Sort of but robe generally (should) refer to a garment that hangs from the
> shoulders as opposed to something that fits the torso or else fulfills 
> the
> function of a modern coat (which can be semi fitted to the body but 
> usually
> not form fitting.) Surcoat, Ropa these are similar items of the 16thC.
> Schaube is used in this sort of generalised term usually too.
>
>> It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as
> the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the
> same.
>
> Not always shorter, it was many different lengths and it is possible they
> all had different names depending on the specific use. Women wore them and
> they can be seen in many images. I collected several but it's so hard to
> hunt them out in the first place I wouldn't really know where to direct 
> you!
>
>> How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind 
>> of
> dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
>
> The surcoats in Patterns of Fashion aren't too bad to go by. Then the Ropa
> in Alcega are also of a similar design. Many men wear them in portraits by
> German artists, and there are a number of them for women but they are
> usually seen full length in woodcuts or illuminations etc.
>
> Michaela
> who just handed on her Scahube as it was much too big in the shoulders.
> Super snuggly and warm though.
> http://glittersweet.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
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In a message dated 1/5/2007 8:04:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

How  about the garment Christine of Denmark wears. Its made of fur. Holbein  
painted her, scroll down to find it on the right  side..............
http://www.italy.dk/turisme/lombardia/milano/mi-castello.htm



*******************
 
When I was studying costume history in college [not too long after the  
Schaube went out of style...OK...really the mid 1970's] A schaube was also a  short 
garment, like what you see Henry VIII wearing over his doublet with a set  of 
bases. The thing with the big sleeves and a fur collar.
 
_http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8afterholbein1.jpg_ 
(http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8afterholbein1.jpg) 
 
 
_http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8eworth1.jpg_ 
(http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8eworth1.jpg) 
 
 
 Sometimes referred to as a jerkin. But the forms of these garments  seem so 
different, the later jerkin being almost identical to a  doublet, the terms 
can get confusing. I always referred to this type of  Henry VIII over-robe 
thingie as a schaube.
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In a message dated 1/5/2007 8:08:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

http://search.famsf.org:8080/view.shtml?record=210781&=list&=271&=dre



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
I really like this one. If I were designing a show that needed such a  
costume, I'd steal this one. Yummy!
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Schaube
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Just my 2 cents....

It seems to me that the term "schaube" has the same problem as the term coat
or jacket in modern terms.  We call all jackets the same thing but it does
not indicate what style they are (long, short, leather, wool, nylon, etc.)  

So perhaps a "schaube" to them was just a term for a coat and using our
modern context, we are trying to differentiate the styles by finding
different words for them.  But in period there was really only one term for
them.

I liken this issue to one I had when trying to differentiate different
styles of renaissance German lady's dresses.  In period they would have just
called them dresses or "rocks" even though they had different features.  

Diana 

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:51:14 -0800
From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Status: RO

Robin, thank you for sending us that link. It's only fabulous!

Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
the threads. These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to
produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.

I "discovered" Ancient Egypt when I was about 9; it was my first
historical focus and I still have a passion for it. That doesn't mean
that I am the be-all in Egyptian knowledge by any means, but I know a
bunch of random stuff about the Egyptians. And some things about
off-loom beading.

LynnD


On 1/4/07, Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 04 January 2007 2:59 am, Robin Netherton wrote:
> > A little prowling online turned up a teaching package from the Petrie
> > museum that includes a photo and description of the bead-net dress (among
> > many other items) and detailed directions for making one. I'm sure that
> > the directions are modernized, but they're complex enough they clearly
> > aren't meant to be Halloween-costume level.
> >
> > http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/Textiles%20in%20the%20Petrie%20Museum.doc
>
> Neat!  Thank you.
>
> (One more project for the "future projects" pile.)  :-)
>
>
> --
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
> of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost
>
>
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Status: RO

Greetings to all,

I have a different question about this book.  To those of you in the US 
who got it when it first became available:  how much did you pay for it, 
and when was that?  I'm trying to establish the "original" price of this 
book to see how much it's gone up and how fast.

The book itself says it's 58 euros, which translates (at today's rate) 
to $75, but I doubt anyone in the US got it for that once shipping was 
taken into account, and I know that the US vendors that carry/ied it 
upped the price for the same reason.

Please reply to melanie@faucet.net

Thanks!
Melanie Schuessler

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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Status: RO

My question is that one of the sites given for this dress states that when
they restrung the dress they did not use all of the bead. Something like 1/4
(sorry pulling from memory) of the beads were not restrung on the dress so
what we are seeing, is it more that they have restrung to match the statues
and paintings or is the dress really that way?
De

-----Original Message-----
Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
the threads. These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to
produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.

I "discovered" Ancient Egypt when I was about 9; it was my first
historical focus and I still have a passion for it. That doesn't mean
that I am the be-all in Egyptian knowledge by any means, but I know a
bunch of random stuff about the Egyptians. And some things about
off-loom beading.

LynnD



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Status: RO

I had not noticed before but this has a vest(?) on it.

-----Original Message-----
http://search.famsf.org:8080/view.shtml?record=210781&=list&=271&=dre

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
I really like this one. If I were designing a show that needed such a  
costume, I'd steal this one. Yummy!
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I had not seen them, thank you for sharing. They are beautiful.
   
  Vicky

otsisto <otsisto@socket.net> wrote:
  You have probably seen these but just in case, Victorian wedding dresses
http://tinyurl.com/y2eg4f

http://tinyurl.com/y92ao6

http://tinyurl.com/y5aaga

http://search.famsf.org:8080/view.shtml?record=210781&=list&=271&=dre

http://tinyurl.com/yajfmh

http://tinyurl.com/y4p2mu

http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/yyeltz

http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/hours/marriage.htm

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                               www.southerngracedesigns.com
   
   
   
   
   
       
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: victorian wedding clothes, 
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In a message dated 1/5/2007 2:37:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

but this  has a vest(?) on it.



*************
 
 
If you zoom in you will see that there is lace coming from the  bodice 
peaking up from behind the skirt. Something is going on in the back.  Maybe some 
kind of tail on the "vest". Or the vest may be attached to the  bodice, although 
it doesn't really look it.
 
Someone in San Francisco run check it out for us.  :-P
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Since we're talking about ancient costume, and somebody mentioned Jewish, does anybody know any reliable books on Biblical costume? I've always wanted to sculpt a Nativity scene, but I have no idea as to what appropriate costumes would look like. I did an admittedly shallow search a couple of years ago and couldn't turn up anything more credible than Racinet. I did read that it was a difficult subject because the Hebrews, like the Muslims, didn't believe in using human figures in their artwork. But given the dearth of information out there, I wouldn't be surprised if even that was a false statement.
 
 I suppose for the Nativity I could just dress them as Romans, or do a medieval theme or something, but if there is accurate information to be had, I'd like to know. 
 
 Tea Rose
 
 p.s. Robin, I intend to be at CostumeCon for your lecture, but I haven't registered yet. I hope there's still room; I'm really excited about it!
 
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
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On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 tearoses@aol.com wrote:

> Since we're talking about ancient costume, and somebody mentioned
> Jewish, does anybody know any reliable books on Biblical costume? I've
> always wanted to sculpt a Nativity scene, but I have no idea as to
> what appropriate costumes would look like.
>  
>  I suppose for the Nativity I could just dress them as Romans, or do a
> medieval theme or something, but if there is accurate information to
> be had, I'd like to know.

>From what I hear, the costume would be the least of the difficulty in
creating an accurate scene. There are also questions about what the
setting really was like, given the architecture and living arrangements of
the time. Our vision is based primarily on translations of words into
"stable" and "manger," and assumptions of later periods as to what those
would look like.

Not long ago I heard about a scholar who looked at the original
terminology in terms of archaeological evidence of building structures and
came up with what sounded like a solid interpretation that was completely
different. It seems some houses had an upper level that served as a "guest
room," while the family slept downstairs. There was also a half-sunken
side room that was used for animals in bad weather; the animals were fed
from a built-in trough at the side of the human living area, making the
trough eating-height for the cattle, etc. The author noted that since Mary
had family in Bethlehem, it was unlikely that she would have no place to
stay and no one to take her in. He posited an alternative reading that was
consistent with the known terminology for the various parts of the
structure. "No room in the inn" became "no room in the guest room," so
Mary and family were placed not in a separate "stable," but rather in the
interior animal room (not sure whether he thought the animals would have
been indoors or not -- maybe not), and the "manger" became a convenient
place to lay a new baby given the lack of a cradle. I have no idea whether
this was shot down, but the idea of re-considering the translation made a
lot of sense to me.

But a "Nativity Scene" in the barn has a lot of history and resonance to
it, and so you could legitimately use a medieval-ish costuming theme that
would be consistent with the idea of the traditional nativity setting.

--Robin

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I was poking around on the Polistampa website, which I believe is the publisher of the Moda a Firenze book.  They have a notice on the site that they will reprint the book and it will be available in April 2007.  If you pre-order it now, you get a 30% discount (off of 58 Euros).  However, if you order from them, I recall that getting payment to them is quite difficult.  I don't remember the details from when I tried to order this book from them when it first came out, but I finally gave up because I didn't have the time to jump through all the hoops it required!

http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653 

~Mary

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:33:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO


I was going to respond to this as part of my previous post, but it seemed
to deserve its own subject line...

On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 tearoses@aol.com wrote:

> Robin, I intend to be at CostumeCon for your lecture, but I haven't
> registered yet. I hope there's still room; I'm really excited about
> it!

At this point, I think they haven't assigned rooms yet, because they're
still working out the other panels. Last I heard, the plan was that they'd
ultimately make my room assignment based on the number of people signed
up, with a little excess if possible for walk-ins and same-day
registrants. People who sign up in advance are guaranteed a seat, and I'll
have someone checking off names as people arrive.

Which means if you sign up soon, you shouldn't have any problem
getting on the list. If you wait too long, it might be harder.

I know the CostumeCon people have really put themselves on the line in
giving me space for a day, and they're concerned that I show I'm worth the
resources they're devoting. Their primary purpose for signing me up is to
increase visibility of CostumeCon among people interested in historical
costume, and thus to increase attendance beyond the circle of people who
already know about the event.
 
If people are signing up for one-day memberships and registering for my
lectures, it will probably be obvious that they're most likely going
because I'm there. For those of you who decide to to attend the whole con
(well worth it!) primarily because you want to come to my lectures, it
would be useful if you noted along with your sign-up that my presence was
a "draw" for you to attend the con, if only to ease their minds that yes,
having me there really is helping broaden their audience.

Remember that registering (either for the full con or one day) is just one
step; to get signed up for my lectures is a separate step. Information on
how to do that is here:

http://www.cc25.net/netherton.htm

I've attended one CostumeCon, and it was a *blast*. There were a number of
people from this list there, and I hope to meet more at this coming CC.
Perhaps we can have an h-cost meet-and-greet at some point.

If you're attending and would be willing to sit on a panel in your area of
expertise, I believe the planners are taking suggestions. If we want more
historic programming, this is the way to make that happen. Panels
typically have several "teachers," so some panels on historic techniques
would be a good way to bring together people who are doing similar work
for some face-to-face cross-fertilization ... and make the con even more
attractive to historic costumers. Just be sure to note that you don't want
to be scheduled opposite me (Saturday all day), so the historic-minded
people (including the panelists) don't have conflicts about what to
attend!

Pierre, one of the CC25 heads, is on this list -- Pierre, please correct
me if I have any of the above wrong. I don't know what the criteria are
for choosing panelists.

--Robin


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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
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Status: RO

I went to the site, but didn't see notice of a discount.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Mary
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:56 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint

I was poking around on the Polistampa website, which I believe is the
publisher of the Moda a Firenze book.  They have a notice on the site
that they will reprint the book and it will be available in April 2007.
If you pre-order it now, you get a 30% discount (off of 58 Euros).
However, if you order from them, I recall that getting payment to them
is quite difficult.  I don't remember the details from when I tried to
order this book from them when it first came out, but I finally gave up
because I didn't have the time to jump through all the hoops it
required!

http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653 

~Mary

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From: "Katy Bishop" <katybishop64@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: victorian wedding clothes,
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Status: RO

A few years ago in a Costume Society of America journal there was an
article on this same wedding dress, there might have even been a
pattern diagram.  It might have been 1990: "Fashion on the Frontier."
Can't find the issue at the moment.  I seem to recall the owner was
heading west to get married there.

Katy

On 1/5/07, AlbertCat@aol.com <AlbertCat@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2007 2:37:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> otsisto@socket.net writes:
>
> but this  has a vest(?) on it.
>
>
>
> *************
>
>
> If you zoom in you will see that there is lace coming from the  bodice
> peaking up from behind the skirt. Something is going on in the back.  Maybe some
> kind of tail on the "vest". Or the vest may be attached to the  bodice, although
> it doesn't really look it.
>
> Someone in San Francisco run check it out for us.  :-P
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
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Status: RO

>From the German Ren list:
There are a few period patterns (Italian and Spanish) for schaube-like
garments:

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/schnittbuch
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/Tailors

And Alcega's pattern book also has some "sleeved cloak" type patterns.

I don't know of any commercial schaube patterns available, but others may.




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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:16:06 -0500
From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint
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Status: RO

Quoting Mary <hanstar88@yahoo.com>:

> I was poking around on the Polistampa website, which I believe is   
> the publisher of the Moda a Firenze book.  They have a notice on the  
>  site that they will reprint the book and it will be available in   
> April 2007.  If you pre-order it now, you get a 30% discount (off of  
>  58 Euros).  However, if you order from them, I recall that getting   
> payment to them is quite difficult.  I don't remember the details   
> from when I tried to order this book from them when it first came   
> out, but I finally gave up because I didn't have the time to jump   
> through all the hoops it required!
>
> http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653
>

You have to have your bank make an electronic transfer of funds to their bank.

One more thing, when they were offering a 20% discount, shipping to  
the states was *almost* as much as the book.  With a 30% discount,  
shipping is certainly more.  I *did* have the receipt that they sent,  
but I'm not finding it at the moment ...

Found it!

original price 58.00 E
discount      -11.60 E
subtotal       46.40 E
shipping       33.60 E

Susan (who really hopes that they reprint it even if I already do have  
a copy!)
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Subject: [h-cost] re Victorian wedding gowns
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Status: RO

About the San Francisco wedding dress:

There is an article in "Dress,The Annual Journal of the Costume Society of 
America" 1980, Volume 5.  The article written by Shane Alder is entitled "A 
Diary and a Dress".

The dress was made by (for?) Mehitable Berry Felton to wear at her wedding 
to James L. Sperry in San Francisco September 17, 1864.  It was never 
worn.  Miss Felton wore her travel dress for her wedding.  She traveled 
from South Danvers, Massachusetts.  A month's travel.

As there is a diary with the dress, there is quite a bit of documentation 
with it.  The article in "Dress" offers a grid pattern for the "scarf", 
which appears as a bolero from the front and a fichu from the back.  It's 
an interesting shape and wraps around the neck over the bustline, following 
under the arm and tied at the back waist.  The upper back of the scarf is 
triangular with the point of the triangle almost touching the tie at the 
back waist.

It's one of my favourite examples of a Victorian era wedding gown, too!

Dawn


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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:55:23 -0500
From: "Katy Bishop" <katybishop64@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] re Victorian wedding gowns
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Status: RO

Thanks, I remembered the article, but could not put my hand on the
issue.  The dress is lovely.  I've always wanted to copy it.

Katy

On 1/5/07, Dawn Luckham <dluckham@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> About the San Francisco wedding dress:
>
> There is an article in "Dress,The Annual Journal of the Costume Society of
> America" 1980, Volume 5.  The article written by Shane Alder is entitled "A
> Diary and a Dress".
>
> The dress was made by (for?) Mehitable Berry Felton to wear at her wedding
> to James L. Sperry in San Francisco September 17, 1864.  It was never
> worn.  Miss Felton wore her travel dress for her wedding.  She traveled
> from South Danvers, Massachusetts.  A month's travel.
>
> As there is a diary with the dress, there is quite a bit of documentation
> with it.  The article in "Dress" offers a grid pattern for the "scarf",
> which appears as a bolero from the front and a fichu from the back.  It's
> an interesting shape and wraps around the neck over the bustline, following
> under the arm and tied at the back waist.  The upper back of the scarf is
> triangular with the point of the triangle almost touching the tie at the
> back waist.
>
> It's one of my favourite examples of a Victorian era wedding gown, too!
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
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Status: RO

Lynn,

I too have had an interest in ancient Egypt's history since a child.

I took a week long masters level class in Egyptian art.  They brought in 
experts from all the world to lecture.  One expert had been doing Egyptian 
archaeology at one site since the early 1960s.  These experts could agree 
with one another.  Two lecturers even got into saying that the other 
expert's theories were completely wrong in their lectures.  I think the main 
problem is that 90% of ancient Egyptian history is under sand. The more that 
is uncovered the more we will know.

I loved the class but never recommend anyone taking it in the manner I did. 
It was for seven days from 8AM to 11:00 PM.  By Thursday, I felt like I was 
joining a cult.  It was very overwhelming and too much information to soak 
in my brain in one week.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)


> Robin, thank you for sending us that link. It's only fabulous!
>
> Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
> doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
> and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
> survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
> threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
> for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
> Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
> the threads. These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to
> produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
> to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
> might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
> the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.
>
> I "discovered" Ancient Egypt when I was about 9; it was my first
> historical focus and I still have a passion for it. That doesn't mean
> that I am the be-all in Egyptian knowledge by any means, but I know a
> bunch of random stuff about the Egyptians. And some things about
> off-loom beading.
>
> LynnD
>
>
> On 1/4/07, Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday 04 January 2007 2:59 am, Robin Netherton wrote:
>> > A little prowling online turned up a teaching package from the Petrie
>> > museum that includes a photo and description of the bead-net dress 
>> > (among
>> > many other items) and detailed directions for making one. I'm sure that
>> > the directions are modernized, but they're complex enough they clearly
>> > aren't meant to be Halloween-costume level.
>> >
>> > http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/Textiles%20in%20the%20Petrie%20Museum.doc
>>
>> Neat!  Thank you.
>>
>> (One more project for the "future projects" pile.)  :-)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>>
>> "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
>> of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] movie costume (more recent)
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Status: RO


  I fell in love with the clothes worn by Naomi Watts in "The Painted Veil." 
  It's set in the mid-1920s, and the clothes (designed by Ruth Meyer) follow 
somewhat her character's development from a spoiled
flightly socialite to someone rather different (no spoilers).
   Does anybody know how accurate the clothes are?
The trailer and some stills are available at the web site
http://wip.warnerbros.com/paintedveil/

Laura Dickerson

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Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place!  MSN Shopping 
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Schaube
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Status: RO

 If you want one like the Henry VIII robe, there's a pattern in the Tudor Tailor book.



Here are some dress diaries for women's schaubes: 



http://www.curiousfrau.com/Diaries/Schaube.htm



http://myra.hem.nu/costume/DressDairies/Schaube/Schaube_Dairy.htm



http://catrijn.blogspot.com/search/label/schaube



Hope this helps!

Tea Rose

   
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Status: RO

On Friday 05 January 2007 12:51 pm, Lynn Downward wrote:
> Robin, thank you for sending us that link. It's only fabulous!
>
> Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
> doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
> and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
> survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
> threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
> for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
> Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
> the threads. 


As for folk brave enough to try to make such a beaded dress, I have two words 
of advice--dental floss.  Stronger than any other thread I know of (makers of 
belly dance garb sometimes suggest it for beading dance bras).

> These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to 
> produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
> to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
> might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
> the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.

That would be my guess, as well.  





-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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From: Kimiko Small <sstormwatch@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Schaube is the German word for what the English called a gown, according to Cunnington's book (Handbook of English Costume in the 16th Century). Another term used in England for what is probably the Henry VIII style gown is "shamew", "chammer", or "chymer". However, the descriptions for both appear similar, with no mention of length. In fact, the description of the "gown" entry sounds more like the Henry VIII style than the entry for the other words above. Then there is the sub-description for "demigown" which is the short version, although a period term seems to be "a short rydinge gown", since they were often worn while on horseback. That's according to the book, not me.
   
  I will tell you it is very confusing trying to figure out the various terms used, as they often overlap or mean multiple things. Because they also used "frock", "coat", "cassock" and "gabardine" for various outer garments.
   
  As to patterns, currently _The Tudor Tailor_ has one version, and there is something in the _Patterns for Theatrical Costumes: Garments, Trims and Accessories from Ancient Egypt to 1915_ by Katherine Strand Holkeboer. I also know that Period Patterns #53 is currently available, with two other companies working on the Henry VIII style patterns for release I don't know when.
   
  Kimiko
   

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From: Kimiko Small <sstormwatch@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube
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The overrobe part is called a gown, among other terms (see my other post on that). The part with the skirt at later times was called a jerkin, but early on in the 16th c. was termed a jacquette or jacket. The jacket would have the U shaped opening, or sometimes V shaped, or closed down the front, and would have the skirt attached. The skirt could be worn seperately and be known as a base. The jacket could have a set of sleeves, or the sleeves could belong to the doublet worn underneath, or both at once! (and then you add the gown sleeves as well) And apparantly, the doublet would also have a skirt of some sort, tho usually shorter.
   
  So many layers to a man's outfit, and I had thought men got away with wearing less than women at a Tudor faire. I learned better.
   
  Kimiko
  

AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:
  When I was studying costume history in college [not too long after the 
Schaube went out of style...OK...really the mid 1970's] A schaube was also a short 
garment, like what you see Henry VIII wearing over his doublet with a set of 
bases. The thing with the big sleeves and a fur collar.

_http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8afterholbein1.jpg_ 
(http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8afterholbein1.jpg) 


_http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8eworth1.jpg_ 
(http://www.marileecody.com/henry8/henry8eworth1.jpg) 

Sometimes referred to as a jerkin. But the forms of these garments seem so 
different, the later jerkin being almost identical to a doublet, the terms 
can get confusing. I always referred to this type of Henry VIII over-robe 
thingie as a schaube.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Dental floss would be one option, but ever since I discovered kevlar beading thread, I haven't used dental floss again.  The kevlar is nice and thin like regular thread, cuts easily, and doesn't fray like dental floss.  Just an alternative....

LuAnn in Washington
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Catherine Olanich Raymond<mailto:cathy@thyrsus.com> 
  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)


  On Friday 05 January 2007 12:51 pm, Lynn Downward wrote:
  > Robin, thank you for sending us that link. It's only fabulous!
  >
  > Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
  > doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
  > and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
  > survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
  > threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
  > for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
  > Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
  > the threads. 


  As for folk brave enough to try to make such a beaded dress, I have two words 
  of advice--dental floss.  Stronger than any other thread I know of (makers of 
  belly dance garb sometimes suggest it for beading dance bras).

  > These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to 
  > produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
  > to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
  > might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
  > the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.

  That would be my guess, as well.  





  -- 
  Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com<mailto:cathy@thyrsus.com>>

  "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
  of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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>Speaking of ancient costume history,  are any of you expert in the
>field of Mesopotamian costume?  I'm wondering what else might have been
>dug up in that area since I studied costume history.  Anyone know any
>good books on the subject?

>Sylrog

Not so much costume as cooking... but the Assyrian cunieform tablets
at Cambridge were translated (err, that's Cambridge in
Massachussetts). The tablets were recipes. Here's the pop archaeology
book on the project.
http://www.superchefblog.com/2005/07/oldest-cuisine-in-world-jean-bottero.html
There's also a much more scholarly one (in French by the same author)
that I used for a Stanford paper years ago.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: victorian wedding clothes,
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On Fri Jan  5 14:18 , 'otsisto' <otsisto@socket.net> sent:

>I had not noticed before but this has a vest(?) on it.
>


It's not a vest. It's a shaped fichu; triangular back ending at the waist, long 
tails that come over the shoulder then wrap to the back and tie. It is trimmed with 
box pleated silk ribbon ruching and Chantilly lace. There are detailed photographs 
of it in the book "To Love and To Cherish". The dress has a low body - wide off-the-
shoulder neckline, short puffed sleeves, pointed waistline. 

The dress belonged to a young lady from New England (I don't have her name at this 
location). She sailed around the Cape to San Francisco where she would wed her 
fiance. She was married shortly after her arrival (the next day, I believe) in the 
dress she traveled in; the wedding dress was never worn. :-(

I'll look up the details and post them when I get home this evening. 

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007


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Subject: Re: victorian wedding clothes, was [h-cost] Another film costume rant
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I wore an off the shoulder wedding gown in 1978 in a Baptist church.  No one 
frowned upon it.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
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Status: RO

Answering more than one question at once:

Yes, I plan on going to CostumeCon.  Mostly for the Netherton  
sequence  ;-)  but what the heck, might as well stay for Sunday,  
too.  Since I've never gone before, what do I need to know ahead of  
time?  Costuming is a hobby, not my profession, so I'm a little  
worried about how I'll fit in.  Like, what's a "hall costume"??!?   
I'm assuming that we all wear our stuff all the time but that you  
keep the competition main entries under wraps until the last minute,  
so anything else is a "hall" costume... is that about right?

And because of CostumeCon, I've bumped the "orange Italian Ren" aka  
"Hobby Lobby Florentine" (no spinach, just cabbage) to the top of my  
list of projects to complete this year.  For the Sunday ORANGE hall  
costume contest.

Suzanne
p.s.  can't register until next month when the bank balance recovers  
from Christmas--sorry!


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress 
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Status: RO

Luann,

Where do you purchase the Kevlar thread?  I am dealing with metal beads from 
the 1920s and scared they might cut the thread.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume 
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Status: RO

I have heard about that theory, but I didn't know the name of the  historian. 
It makes a lot of sense to me; I've seen replicas of those ancient  
split-level houses on TV. 
 
Regarding the resonance of the scene in the barn, you have a point. I guess  
the modern concept of a Nativity scene is a descendent of the fictional 
costumes  depicted in Medieval art, huh? Just like Saint Catherine and her sideless  
surcoat.
 
I'd still like to know if there was any accurate information, though.
 
Tea Rose
 
 
In a message dated 1/5/2007 9:07:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:16:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton  <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient  costume
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>

>From what I hear, the costume would be the least of the difficulty  in
creating an accurate scene. There are also questions about what  the
setting really was like, given the architecture and living arrangements  of
the time. 
.....
But a "Nativity Scene" in the barn has a lot of history and resonance  to
it, and so you could legitimately use a medieval-ish costuming theme  that
would be consistent with the idea of the traditional nativity  setting.

--Robin






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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon (was: Movies and ancient costume) 
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Status: RO

 
Actually, the main draw for me is that it's within driving distance of  where 
I live. I SO wish there was more costuming stuff near Kansas City. (Is a  
Dickens Fair too much to ask?)
 
But I'll be happy to tell them it's all about the historical lectures. :) 
 
Dawn and I wanted to go last year when it was in Des Moines, but I was  
dealing with a broken foot and the attendant medical bills and couldn't spare  the 
price of registration. We drove up and visited the vendor hall, but I have a  
feeling we missed all the fun stuff.
 
Tea Rose
 
In a message dated 1/5/2007 9:07:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

Date:  Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:33:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton  <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon (was: Movies  and ancient costume)
To: Historical Costume _h-costume@indra.com_ (mailto:h-costume@indra.com) 

For those of  you who decide to to attend the whole con
(well worth it!) primarily  because you want to come to my lectures, it
would be useful if you noted  along with your sign-up that my presence was
a "draw" for you to attend the  con, if only to ease their minds that yes,
having me there really is  helping broaden their  audience.



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Subject: RE: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:03:10 -0600
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Status: RO

size "D" beading floss works about the same and is a little cheaper the
dental floss. But if you can't get beading floss then dental is the way to
go. And if you do not want to repair beadwork on a garment that you created
"DO NOT" use regular sewing thread, no matter how much the thread matches.
(lesson as a novice learned)
De
-----Original Message-----
As for folk brave enough to try to make such a beaded dress, I have two
words
of advice--dental floss.  Stronger than any other thread I know of (makers
of
belly dance garb sometimes suggest it for beading dance bras).


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: Victorian wedding clothes, 
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:35:53 -0600
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Status: RO

I love this site's zoom. :) I wonder if the lace seen on the back of the
skirt is a ruffle or bow.
Yeah, the drawback with this site is that you can't see the back. :P
De

-----Original Message-----

If you zoom in you will see that there is lace coming from the  bodice
peaking up from behind the skirt. Something is going on in the back.  Maybe
some
kind of tail on the "vest". Or the vest may be attached to the  bodice,
although
it doesn't really look it.

Someone in San Francisco run check it out for us.  :-P


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Maybe a "bolero" ?

Susan

"Slow down. The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail. Travel
too fast and you miss all you are traveling for".  - "Ride the Dark
Trail" by Louis L'Amour

On Jan 5, 2007, at 2:54 PM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/5/2007 2:37:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> otsisto@socket.net writes:
>
> but this  has a vest(?) on it.
>
>
>
> *************
>
>
> If you zoom in you will see that there is lace coming from the  bodice
> peaking up from behind the skirt. Something is going on in the back.  
> Maybe some
> kind of tail on the "vest". Or the vest may be attached to the  
> bodice, although
> it doesn't really look it.
>
> Someone in San Francisco run check it out for us.  :-P
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:23:51 -0800
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Penny, I get mine at the local bead shop, but if you Google "kevlar beading thread" it can be mail ordered for about $2.50 a spool.

HTH--

LuAnn
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Penny Ladnier<mailto:penny@costumegallery.com> 
  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress 


  Luann,

  Where do you purchase the Kevlar thread?  I am dealing with metal beads from 
  the 1920s and scared they might cut the thread.

  Penny Ladnier,
  Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
  www.costumegallery.com<http://www.costumegallery.com/>
  www.costumelibrary.com<http://www.costumelibrary.com/>
  www.costumeclassroom.com<http://www.costumeclassroom.com/>
  www.costumeencyclopedia.com<http://www.costumeencyclopedia.com/>

  _______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Costume-Con
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Status: RO

At 09:11 PM 1/5/2007, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:34:11 -0600
>From: Suzanne <sovagris@cybermesa.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
>
>Answering more than one question at once:
>
>Yes, I plan on going to CostumeCon.  Mostly for the Netherton
>sequence  ;-)  but what the heck, might as well stay for Sunday,
>too.  Since I've never gone before, what do I need to know ahead of
>time?  Costuming is a hobby, not my profession, so I'm a little
>worried about how I'll fit in.  Like, what's a "hall costume"??!?
>I'm assuming that we all wear our stuff all the time but that you
>keep the competition main entries under wraps until the last minute,
>so anything else is a "hall" costume... is that about right?

For almost all of us - costuming is a hobby.  Sometimes also an 
obsession, but....that's another story.  If you love costumes, 
whether you make exact reproductions of the most elaborate historical 
gowns, or put together a pirate out of thrift store finds, if you 
love costume, this is for you.  When we started going to Costume Cons 
(22 years ago now...) we didn't even know how to sew.  We just knew 
we wanted to do this.  We also include production people (we can't 
show off our stuff without lights and sound, after all...), 
photographers, and those who don't work in fabric but make great 
props and special effects.  All of us (well, most anyway) are 
amateurs and do this for fun.

Yes, a "hall costume" is just what you wear around the convention, 
it's not required, but adds to the atmosphere of the con.  Sometimes 
it's just funky street wear.  Sometimes it's re-enactment 
level.  Anything from ancient history to the far future can and will 
be seen, as CC encompasses both historical and Fantasy/Science 
Fiction.  Theatrical costuming is welcome also.

There are two competitions, a Fashion Show, and the Friday Night 
Social.  Our Social theme is a Rock and Roll party, to fit with the 
"Hell Freezes Over Tour" theme of the con.  The Saturday hall costume 
competition is Pirates.

If you go to www.Costume-Con.org , click on "Timeline", there is a 
list of all the previous Costume Cons with links to pictures, and 
sometimes program lists and other stuff.  This will give you an idea 
of what it's all about.  And if you're there on Friday, I believe one 
of the panels scheduled will be "Welcome to your first Costume Con!".

Hope to see many of you there.

Pierre Pettinger (co-chair)
Sandy Pettinger (nag)

>And because of CostumeCon, I've bumped the "orange Italian Ren" aka
>"Hobby Lobby Florentine" (no spinach, just cabbage) to the top of my
>list of projects to complete this year.  For the Sunday ORANGE hall
>costume contest.
>
>Suzanne
>p.s.  can't register until next month when the bank balance recovers
>from Christmas--sorry!

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress
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Status: RO

Thank you Luann!

Penny Ladnier, 
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:49:43 -0800
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No problem, Penny.  I think you'll be pleased with the results.  It's not period, of course, but it is effective and doesn't visually detract from the final appearance.

LuAnn
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Penny Ladnier<mailto:penny@costumegallery.com> 
  To: Historical Costume<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress


  Thank you Luann!

  Penny Ladnier, 
  Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
  www.costumegallery.com<http://www.costumegallery.com/>
  www.costumelibrary.com<http://www.costumelibrary.com/>
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:00:46 -0500
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Status: RO

On Friday 05 January 2007 8:33 pm, LuAnn Mason wrote:
> Dental floss would be one option, but ever since I discovered kevlar
> beading thread, I haven't used dental floss again.  The kevlar is nice and
> thin like regular thread, cuts easily, and doesn't fray like dental floss. 
> Just an alternative....

Never heard of the stuff, but it sounds like it's worth a try!  Where does one 
buy it?
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress
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On Saturday 06 January 2007 12:23 am, LuAnn Mason wrote:
> Penny, I get mine at the local bead shop, but if you Google "kevlar beading
> thread" it can be mail ordered for about $2.50 a spool.
>
Sorry, I missed this message the first time!  Please ignore my reply a;sking 
the same question.  Thanks.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
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Status: RO

I'm planning to go to CostumeCon, too.  It'll be my first one, and I plan to 
make a few things to wear there, but I'm still trying to figure out what I 
should make for it (other than my one Impressive Gown, and that piratish 
coat I've been meaning to make all this past year but never got around to 
even starting).  I'm planning to attend the whole weekend, since Yay!  It's 
local for me, and Boo, I doubt I'll make it to another one anytime soon as I 
don't travel well lately.

I'd say let's all figure out a way to meet up while we're there, but I 
expect we'll all be meeting in Robin's classes, anyway!

Here's what I'm planning to make for my Impressive Gown (yes, it must be 
capitalized, as I've been planning it for years now):
http://www.formfunction.org/temp/mi03977f11a.jpg
Being saintswear, though, it's a bit hard to figure out a way to engineer it 
as an actual outfit, but not trying to use period construction techniques 
should help a lot.  I'd planned to bead the breastband, but since all I've 
done so far is finally pick out all the fabrics (copper/eggplant dupioni, 
purple/black taffeta, orange rayon dupioni overlayed with gold/purple silk 
organza, magenta sari 'silk') that'll be involved, it doesn't look like 
that's going to happen by March.  I have yet to figure out what I'm going to 
do for headwear, either, sigh...

-E House



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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:14:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
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Status: RO


On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, E House wrote:

> I'd say let's all figure out a way to meet up while we're there, but I
> expect we'll all be meeting in Robin's classes, anyway!

Y'know, the obvious thing would be for the h-cost people to meet either
before my official class time, or during the lunch break. I am allowed to
set my own schedule for my room. I will be in there setting up my slides
quite early, as soon as they unlock it for me (and then running off to
dress), but of course people would be welcome to bring the beverage of
their choice, or maybe breakfast, and come in early to socialize. Or we
could all get our lunches as take-out or brown-bag and come back to the
room -- I've asked for an hour and a half for lunch break, so there will
be plenty of time as long as people aren't all lining up at the hotel
restaurant. (There's lots of fast food in the area.) Even if you're not
signed up for my lectures, I don't think there would be any problem in you
joining a h-cost meet-and-greet either pre-lectures or during the lunch
period, as long as you scoot out when the start time approaches (and we
start checking names). I will clear this with my con-committee handlers,
of course -- I need to see whether they allow people to bring food into
the rooms, for instance.  And if there's a killer historic panel going on
during the lunch break, I don't want to suggest anything that would
compete with that. Once I'm sure of the logistics, I'll let the list know
shortly before the convention.

--Robin


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Costume-Con
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Status: RO

At 09:06 PM 1/5/2007, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:33:47 -0600 (CST)
>From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
>Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon (was: Movies and ancient costume)
>
>At this point, I think they haven't assigned rooms yet, because they're
>still working out the other panels.

Yes, we're still working out all the other panels.  We're a bit later 
than expected due to an unforeseen problem.  It will get done.

>Which means if you sign up soon, you shouldn't have any problem
>getting on the list. If you wait too long, it might be harder.
>
>If you're attending and would be willing to sit on a panel in your area of
>expertise, I believe the planners are taking suggestions. If we want more
>historic programming, this is the way to make that happen. Panels
>typically have several "teachers," so some panels on historic techniques
>would be a good way to bring together people who are doing similar work
>for some face-to-face cross-fertilization ... and make the con even more
>attractive to historic costumers. Just be sure to note that you don't want
>to be scheduled opposite me (Saturday all day), so the historic-minded
>people (including the panelists) don't have conflicts about what to
>attend!

Yes, we are taking suggestions for panels, and volunteers for 
panelists, but hurry - we need to get the schedule firmed up Very Soon Now ;-).

>Pierre, one of the CC25 heads, is on this list -- Pierre, please correct
>me if I have any of the above wrong. I don't know what the criteria are
>for choosing panelists.

Can you speak knowledgeably and clearly on a topic of interest to 
costumers?  Do you know how to do a nifty technique or work with an 
unusual material?  Costume-Con is about all types of costuming, so 
let us know what you know!

Contact us at costumrs@radiks.net and we'll talk.

Pierre Pettinger (co-chair)
Sandy Pettinger (helper and nag :) )

>--Robin

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Status: RO

Sadly it looks like I will have to miss the Con. I am in the process of
looking for a new vehicle and so my finances will be tight. :(
It's wittled down to a Matrix and a CR-V.
De


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Status: RO

Dear Helen!
Your lovely cd arrived this morning. I have just enjoyed all the gorgeous 
pictures. It was very gennerous and kind of you to do all this for us all.
Thousinds of thanks from my part...........
The blue dress is my favourite, (18th century) i just wished there was a 
picture of its back.
And that 20ies dress with the ribbon roses is to die for.



Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Schaube
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:18:09 -0800
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Status: RO

There is a short one in "The Tudor Tailor", page 87, pattern on pages 93-94.
It's a starting point. 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Zuzana Kraemerova
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:36 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube


  Thanks for help! 
  Gonna search through our art museum library... 
  But the more I search, the more I'm confused about what the word really
means. Now I've found an explanation in one of the Czech history of costume
books and it says that the "alchubba" was a long dress of mohammeds, opened
in front. In 12th century it came to Europe with the crusades. They say that
the word later changed to "Schaube", which was a large cloak worn in the
entire Europe, especially in the time of Reformation. So the famous Henry
VIII-portrait-like robes are probably those called Schaube. Are there some
resources about the original garment? The arabian one?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "michaela" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Schaube


>> I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this
> kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>> it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or
> something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", 
> which
> is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many
> different things.
>
> Sort of but robe generally (should) refer to a garment that hangs from the
> shoulders as opposed to something that fits the torso or else fulfills 
> the
> function of a modern coat (which can be semi fitted to the body but 
> usually
> not form fitting.) Surcoat, Ropa these are similar items of the 16thC.
> Schaube is used in this sort of generalised term usually too.
>
>> It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as
> the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the
> same.
>
> Not always shorter, it was many different lengths and it is possible they
> all had different names depending on the specific use. Women wore them and
> they can be seen in many images. I collected several but it's so hard to
> hunt them out in the first place I wouldn't really know where to direct 
> you!
>
>> How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind 
>> of
> dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
>
> The surcoats in Patterns of Fashion aren't too bad to go by. Then the Ropa
> in Alcega are also of a similar design. Many men wear them in portraits by
> German artists, and there are a number of them for women but they are
> usually seen full length in woodcuts or illuminations etc.
>
> Michaela
> who just handed on her Scahube as it was much too big in the shoulders.
> Super snuggly and warm though.
> http://glittersweet.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Status: RO

For CC 2004 the H-Costume folks arranged for registration to put a big
red "H" stamp on member name tags so H-costume people could identify
each other on sight. Perhaps something similar could be arranged this
year?

At this stage, I strongly doubt I'm attending due to financial
limitations, though if I can miraculously pull some extra $ out of my
hat I would definitely shift my priorities to make it happen!

Allison T.


> Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:14:01 -0600 (CST)
> From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID:
>         <Pine.LNX.4.10.10701060056160.5538-100000@shell.nightowl.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, E House wrote:
>
> > I'd say let's all figure out a way to meet up while we're there, but I
> > expect we'll all be meeting in Robin's classes, anyway!
>
> Y'know, the obvious thing would be for the h-cost people to meet either
> before my official class time, or during the lunch break. I am allowed to
> set my own schedule for my room. I will be in there setting up my slides
> quite early, as soon as they unlock it for me (and then running off to
> dress), but of course people would be welcome to bring the beverage of
> their choice, or maybe breakfast, and come in early to socialize. Or we
> could all get our lunches as take-out or brown-bag and come back to the
> room -- I've asked for an hour and a half for lunch break, so there will
> be plenty of time as long as people aren't all lining up at the hotel
> restaurant. (There's lots of fast food in the area.) Even if you're not
> signed up for my lectures, I don't think there would be any problem in you
> joining a h-cost meet-and-greet either pre-lectures or during the lunch
> period, as long as you scoot out when the start time approaches (and we
> start checking names). I will clear this with my con-committee handlers,
> of course -- I need to see whether they allow people to bring food into
> the rooms, for instance.  And if there's a killer historic panel going on
> during the lunch break, I don't want to suggest anything that would
> compete with that. Once I'm sure of the logistics, I'll let the list know
> shortly before the convention.
>
> --Robin
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Status: RO

This will be our first CostumeCon, too. My daughter submitted a few designs, 
and my husband and I decided it would be a nice, fun gift for her to 
go--it's her senior year of high school, and she has been working hard. She 
is making an "updated" Empire-style dress with a leather coat, and I don't 
know what else yet.

We are both *very* excited about Robin's lectures, and are looking forward 
to meeting some of the faces behind the names here (and the f-costume list, 
which Emily is on).

Caryn

P.S. Does anyone know if there are other youngsters like her at CostumeCon? 
I was hoping she wouldn't be the only one her age there. 


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Status: RO

That sounds like it would be an eye-watering match to my
long-planned-never-made "Tequila Sunrise" fitted gown.  Hot pink/fuchsia
wool gown (lined in matching hot pink linen), with a surcoat in tangerine
orange velvet.  I believe I have enough fuchsia-purple to do an optional
overgown, if'n I wanted.  ;o)
--Sue, tied to local (SCA) obligations in March, so no CostumeCon for her
;o(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne" <sovagris@cybermesa.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:34 PM
Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects


> Answering more than one question at once:
>
> Yes, I plan on going to CostumeCon.  Mostly for the Netherton
> sequence  ;-)  but what the heck, might as well stay for Sunday,
> too.  Since I've never gone before, what do I need to know ahead of
> time?  Costuming is a hobby, not my profession, so I'm a little
> worried about how I'll fit in.  Like, what's a "hall costume"??!?
> I'm assuming that we all wear our stuff all the time but that you
> keep the competition main entries under wraps until the last minute,
> so anything else is a "hall" costume... is that about right?
>
> And because of CostumeCon, I've bumped the "orange Italian Ren" aka
> "Hobby Lobby Florentine" (no spinach, just cabbage) to the top of my
> list of projects to complete this year.  For the Sunday ORANGE hall
> costume contest.


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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10701040155140.30919-100000@shell.nightowl.net><200701051934.57503.cathy@thyrsus.com><BAY106-DAV13E9A245C0EBEC3AFFE4649CBE0@phx.gbl>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:11:40 -0700
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Status: RO

Try Fire Mountain Gems, maybe? They're in Oregon, but I know that they do
mail order....
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)


> On Friday 05 January 2007 8:33 pm, LuAnn Mason wrote:
> > Dental floss would be one option, but ever since I discovered kevlar
> > beading thread, I haven't used dental floss again.  The kevlar is nice
and
> > thin like regular thread, cuts easily, and doesn't fray like dental
floss.
> > Just an alternative....
>
> Never heard of the stuff, but it sounds like it's worth a try!  Where does
one
> buy it?


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)
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Status: RO

And they're incredibly helpful. Mail order makes up the bulk of their
business.

www.firemountaingems.com

Arlys

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:11:40 -0700 "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
writes:
> Try Fire Mountain Gems, maybe? They're in Oregon, but I know that 
> they do
> mail order....
> --Sue
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie 
> costumes--Egyptian)
> 
> 
> > On Friday 05 January 2007 8:33 pm, LuAnn Mason wrote:
> > > Dental floss would be one option, but ever since I discovered 
> kevlar
> > > beading thread, I haven't used dental floss again.  The kevlar 
> is nice
> and
> > > thin like regular thread, cuts easily, and doesn't fray like 
> dental
> floss.
> > > Just an alternative....
> >
> > Never heard of the stuff, but it sounds like it's worth a try!  
> Where does
> one
> > buy it?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
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On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Robin Netherton wrote:

>> I'd say let's all figure out a way to meet up while we're there,  
>> but I
>> expect we'll all be meeting in Robin's classes, anyway!
>
> Y'know, the obvious thing would be for the h-cost people to meet  
> either
> before my official class time, or during the lunch break.

      At some Costume Society of America meetings, H-costume people  
would identify themselves by a red "H" on their name tag.  The same  
could be done with a convention badge.  I carried a red sharpie  
around with me at one meeting, so if I recognized someone she could  
mark her badge right there.  :-)

      So if people can't make it to a meet-up, they can still  
recognize each other any time.

      -Carol
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Subject: [h-cost] Re:  CostumeCon
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--- Caryn Sobel <carynsobel@earthlink.net> wrote:

> P.S. Does anyone know if there are other youngsters
> like her at CostumeCon? 
> I was hoping she wouldn't be the only one her age
> there. 

There were several young-mid teens kids there last
year; I hope to see them again--they're great!

Do any of you have the problem that when you get all
excited about an aspect of costuming, and try to tell
your friends about it, and they start to avoid you?
Costume-Con is Full of costume enthusiasts, even the
ones likely to spend the whole weekend in t-shirts and
jeans (me, last year).
Even hanging out in the Con Suite can be a costuming
experience. :)

I've been to quite a lot of CC's, around 15, and
they're great fun.  
I may not pay as much attention to new people as I'd
like, as I don't see my old friends from prior CCs
from year to year, and I get too focused.
Attract my attention!  I'm glad to meet new people,
especially fellow costume enthusiasts. :)

I'll be there with a medium-sized to big doll in my
arms, cloth or resin ball-jointed.  I haven't decided
who's going to go yet.

Ann in CT

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Moda a Firenze - reprint
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Status: RO

Maybe they got too many pre-orders?  LOL  I *swear* they had a notice up that said 30% off until March.

~mary


Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:55:20 -0500
From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint

I went to the site, but didn't see notice of a discount.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Mary
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:56 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint

I was poking around on the Polistampa website, which I believe is the
publisher of the Moda a Firenze book.  They have a notice on the site
that they will reprint the book and it will be available in April 2007.
If you pre-order it now, you get a 30% discount (off of 58 Euros).
However, if you order from them, I recall that getting payment to them
is quite difficult.  I don't remember the details from when I tried to
order this book from them when it first came out, but I finally gave up
because I didn't have the time to jump through all the hoops it
required!

http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653 

~Mary






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Subject: [h-cost] A scrap of Victorian velvet
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Status: RO

 Greetings :)
 
 I am upholstering an organ stool, approximately 1880-1890 vintage, and have come across a scrap of velvet with the pile intact. If anyone is interested in the scrap, please e-mail me off the list and I will be happy to send it along. It is a deep burgundy colour with a very nice, thick pile. The scrap was somehow mashed up into the stuffing and is what the original exterior was made from, but it has had no wear. The original seat covering was still there, underneath a slightly younger but still early 20th century piece of (now) very worn brocade. The original velvet seat was completely worn down to a nubbin, with absolutely none of the pile left showing, but the ground fabric matches the scrap that I found inside. I am fairly certain that this is the original velvet as there were only two sets of nails in the frame, those holding the still velvet ground and then the much further spaced decorative tacks that were holding the brocade in place.
 
 :)
 ~Kimberley
 Jacksonville, Florida
    
 -----Original Message-----
 From: hanstar88@yahoo.com
 To: h-costume@indra.com
 Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 3:30 PM
 Subject: [h-cost] Re: Moda a Firenze - reprint
 
  Maybe they got too many pre-orders?  LOL  I *swear* they had a notice up that 
said 30% off until March.

~mary


Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:55:20 -0500
From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint

I went to the site, but didn't see notice of a discount.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Mary
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:56 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Moda a Firenze - reprint

I was poking around on the Polistampa website, which I believe is the
publisher of the Moda a Firenze book.  They have a notice on the site
that they will reprint the book and it will be available in April 2007.
If you pre-order it now, you get a 30% discount (off of 58 Euros).
However, if you order from them, I recall that getting payment to them
is quite difficult.  I don't remember the details from when I tried to
order this book from them when it first came out, but I finally gave up
because I didn't have the time to jump through all the hoops it
required!

http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653 

~Mary






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Status: RO

A. Thurman wrote:

> For CC 2004 the H-Costume folks arranged for registration to put a big
> red "H" stamp on member name tags so H-costume people could identify
> each other on sight. Perhaps something similar could be arranged this
> year?

I think I have a half-finished red beaded H from our aborted trip last 
year....

I was planning to go to St Louis because it's only a half day drive. And 
yeah, Robin's lectures are a big draw, too.

I guess I better get moving on my costumes then, they've been hanging 
ignored for a year now. :(



Dawn



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>   I need a little help: I'm looking for pictures and patterns for this kind of dress: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Schaube.PNG
>   it is called "Schaube" in German, originally from arabian "aljubbeh" or something like that. Somewhere I found that it is also called "robe", which is probably not very helpful, because the word "robe" can mean many different things. 
>   It is a sort of a shorter cloak, often with fur. I cannot tell more, as the robe was changing through centuries and the word for it was still the same. 
>   How's that called in English? Do you know any details about this kind of dress or where to find them? Books, webpages? With pictures or patterns?
>    

I don't know where you live, but in America the great-great-grandchild 
of this garment is worn by judges and graduates.  They're likely to have 
a yoke with the back piece gathered into it.  Snape, in the Harry Potter 
movies, wears one.
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From: "Caryn Sobel" <carynsobel@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:  CostumeCon
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<There were several young-mid teens kids there last
year; I hope to see them again--they're great!>

Thanks, Ann. That's good news!

My daughter's only "true" historical costume so far for CostumeCon is still 
in the research phase--she saw the movie "Hero" and is trying to find what 
era the costume might be from (not much from the Qin era so far), if it is 
based on a real style. I thought that a wrap-type dress might be quicker to 
do when she already has her hands full with the earlier ones, and will give 
me something to do a little embroidery with. We'll see how that goes...

Caryn



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References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10701040155140.30919-100000@shell.nightowl.net><200701042008.08486.cathy@thyrsus.com><8296995c0701050951w9ccdfd5rd11a43244d27f8fd@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] dental floss(was: The bead-net dress )
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Status: RO

Dental floss also is great for buttons for stage -- almost totally 
actor-proof!

Kate
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The bead-net dress (was: movie costumes--Egyptian)


> On Friday 05 January 2007 12:51 pm, Lynn Downward wrote:
>> Robin, thank you for sending us that link. It's only fabulous!
>>
>> Warning in case someone is thinking of making that dress, even for a
>> doll: I do some net beading - my sister calls it the insane beading -
>> and the way that net dress was reproduced promises that it would never
>> survive a day of wear (not that they reproduced it for wear). The
>> threads would have to be woven through the beads several times each
>> for stability, especially since many of the beads used by the
>> Egyptians are faence and are very sharp-edged and would cut through
>> the threads.
>
>
> As for folk brave enough to try to make such a beaded dress, I have two 
> words
> of advice--dental floss.  Stronger than any other thread I know of (makers 
> of
> belly dance garb sometimes suggest it for beading dance bras).
>
>> These beautiful dresses would be very time-consuming to
>> produce and therefore probably owned only by the rich who could afford
>> to have someone make them. in the case of musicians or dancers who
>> might wear them, they would probably have been owned by the troupe or
>> the owner of the troupe, like any other stage property.
>
> That would be my guess, as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
> of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost
>
>
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> 


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I'm picking back up with this project in a big way, and in my Sunday meanderings through my art references, something has come to mind. I am cross posting this, so some of you might get it twice.

It wouldn't be original to suggest that men's hose were footless, it's how they were worn that seems to jump out at me. I could never quite figure out how they had them soooo skin tight. Yes, wool stretches where it needs to (but it doesn't return, which makes this a real conundrum), but there is a point that even that won't work - the ankle fitting was my biggest concern. I am sure to say they didn't make hose out of wool exclusively, either. So I started looking to see what I could find... I found several that had lacing up the back of the calf, a closure at the ankle, and of course the stirrup reaching under the instep. This suggests to me how linen or silk hose were treated, being less elastic than wool. 

Flip through images on this site, it's loaded with various detail images:
http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/iconxv.html

These pics in particular:
http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/icon/xv/xv-13.jpg Lacing up the back of the calf, lower left, man in red hose. Look between the lacing, the colour of his skin doesn't show through - it's white.
http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/icon/xv/xv-43.jpg two again, man on lower left. There is clearly two distinct colours going on, and I am pretty sure that isn't armour.
Same thing here. Second man from right, foreground. Look at the opening in his boot, there is a distinct line:
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/more%20art/vic%5C
This guy, you can't miss he is wearing socks over his hose. Piper on right:
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Reyeshombres/rhIV.jpg
The man in yellow has his hose split *up from* the foot and tucked away, rather than rolled down, as we are used to seeing it.
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Pinturas%20sobre/PS138.jpg
These guys here are showing more realistic sag and bag at the joints that I would expect:
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Nobleza2/no18.jpg
Also at the high ankle on the man at left, I would swear there was a ridge where the hem of a sock would be *under* his hose.
This guy has a button closure at the inner ankle:
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Nobleza2/no147.jpg

I also have a photo of an extant man's hose, although I can't for the life of me relocate where I got it from. All I know is that it's contemporary to this project, based on where I filed it. The cut doesn't seem too surprising until one looks to the hip to waist, then all the measurements seem really off - far too low of a seat rise to meet the waist, assuming the wearer was at least reasonably proportionate. Oddly too, these are not likely wool - it's a broad striped brocade cut on the straight of grain.

Another thing I am trying to deal with is getting the seat tight enough to look the way they should, yet give him something to sit down with. Luckily the man in question isn't overly endowed in the caboose department, but still, my first efforts to have it cover over the back of the hip to the point of almost meeting at the waist, yet have him the space to sit it, succeeded in immediately tearing away from their points at the farsetto waist. Interestingly, this guy is wearing the back of his hose about the same way my client would have to, man on right in red:
http://jessamynscloset.com/images/more%20art/1406Cabrera 

I guess in my mental meanderings, I am wondering if anyone has tried employing these adjustment techniques, actually uses the footless hose and sock combination, and has found a way to accomplish covering someones' butt yet they had the space to sit in, without the use of endless fish inserts to force roundness into the back of the hose. I can't justify using fish, there is not one image out there that places a seam of any kind over the fullest part of the hip.

Any ideas?

Kathy
 
Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules.

It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131



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I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear someone out there had a fairly definitive how to, but I can no longer locate it. 

Kathy
 
Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules.

It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131



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Kathy Page wrote:

> I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear someone out there had a fairly definitive how to, but I can no longer locate it. 
> 
> Kathy
>  

Basic drawstring pants:

www.reddawn.net/costume/drawstri.htm

Warning, it's aimed at people who really don't know how to sew. :)


Dawn


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Try Thora's page: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Questions re: Moda a Firenze
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I ordered mine a few days after it was published ( when I found out about it) from Michael Shemansky for $95USD.
Monica

----- Original Message -----
From: Melanie Schuessler 
Date: Friday, January 5, 2007 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Questions re: Moda a Firenze
To: Historical Costume 

> Greetings to all,
> 
> I have a different question about this book. To those of you in 
> the US 
> who got it when it first became available: how much did you pay 
> for it, 
> and when was that? I'm trying to establish the "original" price 
> of this 
> book to see how much it's gone up and how fast.
> 
> The book itself says it's 58 euros, which translates (at today's 
> rate) 
> to $75, but I doubt anyone in the US got it for that once 
> shipping was 
> taken into account, and I know that the US vendors that 
> carry/ied it 
> upped the price for the same reason.
> 
> Please reply to melanie@faucet.net
> 
> Thanks!
> Melanie Schuessler
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From: Susan Carroll-Clark <nicolaa@rogers.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
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Status: RO

Greetings--

Chris wrote:
> Try Thora's page: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/
>   
Right name, wrong site.  The Viking Answer Lady is Gunnvor, not Thora.  
Mistress Thora Sharptooth wrote a good article on the "poufy pants" many 
years ago, which used to be available on her website ( 
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikresource.html) but no longer 
appears to be there.  From what I understand from a discussion another 
list it may be that she has reconsidered the evidence for the poufy 
pants and no longer thinks they were quite so poufy, but more just 
standard trousers with lower-leg binding.

Susan
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Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 15:00:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Right!  Realized my error as soon as I hit 'send' :)  Thanks for catching it.

Susan Carroll-Clark <nicolaa@rogers.com> wrote:  Greetings--

Chris wrote:
> Try Thora's page: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/
> 
Right name, wrong site. The Viking Answer Lady is Gunnvor, not Thora. 
Mistress Thora Sharptooth wrote a good article on the "poufy pants" many 
years ago, which used to be available on her website ( 
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikresource.html) but no longer 
appears to be there. From what I understand from a discussion another 
list it may be that she has reconsidered the evidence for the poufy 
pants and no longer thinks they were quite so poufy, but more just 
standard trousers with lower-leg binding.

Susan
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] dental floss(was: The bead-net dress )
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On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, Kate Pinner wrote:

> Dental floss also is great for buttons for stage -- almost totally 
> actor-proof!

Nothing like it to hold heavy cartridge-pleated skirts, too. I did one in 
pink once, for which I used cinnamon-flavored floss!

--Robin

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Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:45:05 +0100
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
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On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 21:03:58 +0100, Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca>  
wrote:

Poufy swedish 9th-10thC pants;
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf

You'll probably figure out what goes where from the drawings.

The stuff that is hard to figure out if you can't read the language;
Your waistbands lenght should be the same as your waistmeasurements.
The width of each pantleg is 3,20m between C and B. Cut 2.
Pleat where you see a dotted line between C and B.

Gunvor
-- 
"Jeg har sagt ja og nei og DA får du lov"
Anders (nesten 4 år)
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Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 05:25:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lena <lenastrid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO


--- Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy
> pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern
> sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear
> someone out there had a fairly definitive how to,
> but I can no longer locate it. 
> 
> Kathy

There's a pattern and info at the Swedish Historiska
världar website:
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakter/vherre/vherrefr.htm
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf

The drawing ought to make the construction fairly
straightforward, but if you have problems, contact me
and I can translate the pattern pdf.

/Lena

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Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:43:56 +0000
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
References: <200701060306.l0635sqC022786@net.indra.com>
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Status: RO

Robin wrote:
>From what I hear, the costume would be the least of the difficulty in
>creating an accurate scene. There are also questions about what the
>setting really was like, given the architecture and living
arrangements of
>the time. Our vision is based primarily on translations of words into
>"stable" and "manger," and assumptions of later periods as to what
those
>would look like.

IIRC, a stable isn't mentioned, only the manger, which it  was assumed
must have been in the animals' quarters.

>[snip]. The author noted that since Mary
>had family in Bethlehem, it was unlikely that she would have no place
to
>stay and no one to take her in. He posited an alternative reading that
was
>consistent with the known terminology for the various parts of the
>structure. "No room in the inn" became "no room in the guest room,"
so
>Mary and family were placed not in a separate "stable," but rather in
the
>interior animal room (not sure whether he thought the animals would
have
>been indoors or not -- maybe not), and the "manger" became a
convenient
>place to lay a new baby given the lack of a cradle. I have no idea
whether
>this was shot down, but the idea of re-considering the translation
made a
>lot of sense to me.

Sounds plausible to me, but I didn't think anything was known about
Mary's family except from medieval legend? Was the author referring to
them having to go to Bethlehem because Joseph's ancestors came from
there?

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
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On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Kate M Bunting wrote:

> Sounds plausible to me, but I didn't think anything was known about
> Mary's family except from medieval legend? Was the author referring to
> them having to go to Bethlehem because Joseph's ancestors came from
> there?

No idea. I remember the family connections being explained, but this isn't
my area of study, so I didn't retain the details. (I think I heard this
reported in a lengthy segment on an NPR news show.)

--Robin


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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:25:13 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Excuse me for being a dope -- my project keeps slipping backwards in  
time, so what i originally thought took place post-Norman conquest is  
looking more and more like a late Viking-era development, and so NOW  
I am more interested in Norse poufy pants than I expected to be --  
but the Swedish Historiska pdf sure seems to imply the pants were  
gathered around the knee, and I had heard rumors that the pants  
weren't really gathered, just looked that way because of tighter  
wraps on the lower legs. Has this been resolved anywhere? I'm always  
finding that the details I really LIKE -- in this case, the gathers  
-- turn out to be modern interpretations not supported by the  
historical evidence. I keep meaning to add an article to my Web site  
about how often historical accuracy is like going shopping with a  
mean, unfashionable auntie.

Thanks for any clue on these guys, anyway!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 8, 2007, at 12:25 AM, Lena wrote:

>
> --- Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy
>> pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern
>> sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear
>> someone out there had a fairly definitive how to,
>> but I can no longer locate it.
>>
>> Kathy
>
> There's a pattern and info at the Swedish Historiska
> världar website:
> http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakter/vherre/vherrefr.htm
> http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf
>
> The drawing ought to make the construction fairly
> straightforward, but if you have problems, contact me
> and I can translate the pattern pdf.
>
> /Lena
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http:// 
> uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
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Status: RO

Yesterday I just saw a pattern of the viking wide trousers. It's on this webpage: http://www.kostym.cz/ I cannot figure out the direct page, so you have to choose english, then enter and the pants are under "pattern's adaptation" - "trousers". If you then click on the pattern, the text appears in Czech, but they only say that there was no exact garment found yet and that the pattern is not a historical reconstruction, but it's aim is to achieve the same appearance. It's gathered at the waist and under the knees. For gathering, they recommend inserting a simple drawstring. For the author it seems redundant to make complicated pleats at the back - taking inspiration from the tight originals.
   
  
Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote:
  Excuse me for being a dope -- my project keeps slipping backwards in 
time, so what i originally thought took place post-Norman conquest is 
looking more and more like a late Viking-era development, and so NOW 
I am more interested in Norse poufy pants than I expected to be -- 
but the Swedish Historiska pdf sure seems to imply the pants were 
gathered around the knee, and I had heard rumors that the pants 
weren't really gathered, just looked that way because of tighter 
wraps on the lower legs. Has this been resolved anywhere? I'm always 
finding that the details I really LIKE -- in this case, the gathers 
-- turn out to be modern interpretations not supported by the 
historical evidence. I keep meaning to add an article to my Web site 
about how often historical accuracy is like going shopping with a 
mean, unfashionable auntie.

Thanks for any clue on these guys, anyway!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 8, 2007, at 12:25 AM, Lena wrote:

>
> --- Kathy Page wrote:
>
>> I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy
>> pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern
>> sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear
>> someone out there had a fairly definitive how to,
>> but I can no longer locate it.
>>
>> Kathy
>
> There's a pattern and info at the Swedish Historiska
> världar website:
> http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakter/vherre/vherrefr.htm
> http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf
>
> The drawing ought to make the construction fairly
> straightforward, but if you have problems, contact me
> and I can translate the pattern pdf.
>
> /Lena
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http:// 
> uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Lena <lenastrid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norse poufy pants
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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--- Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote:
<snip> 
> but the Swedish Historiska pdf sure seems to imply
> the pants were  
> gathered around the knee, and I had heard rumors
> that the pants  
> weren't really gathered, just looked that way
> because of tighter  
> wraps on the lower legs. Has this been resolved
> anywhere? 

AFAIK, no-one knows how these trousers looked like
below the knee. All (two?) archaeological finds
consist of fragments of the seat. You can ask at the
english forum over at Historiska världar
(http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/forum). Ny Björn
or someone else ought to be able to tell you about the
current state of research.

/Lena

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Subject: [h-cost] chemise styles
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Status: RO

I am looking through Hispanic Costume 1480-1530 and it keeps
mentioning chemises in "the Spanish style: or in "the French style" or
in "the German style."  I see all kinds of necklines. Can anyone tell
me the difference?
Thank you.
-- 
Aspasia Moonwind
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] dental floss(was: The bead-net dress )
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Robin,

You are so clever!  Thank you for the suggestion.

Penny Ladnier, 
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 
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When is Costume Con coming back to the East Coast?  I have always wanted to 
go, but traveling for a long distance is a problem.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects
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On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Penny Ladnier wrote:

> When is Costume Con coming back to the East Coast?  I have always wanted to 
> go, but traveling for a long distance is a problem.

CC26 will be April 25-28, 2008, in San Jose.

CC27 will be in May 2009 in Baltimore, MD -- not too far from you, Penny.

For CC28, I believe there's a bid from Milwaukee.

CostumeCon has two (different) websites: www.costume-con.com and
www.costume-con.org .

--Robin

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Robin,

Thank you!  I can make the Baltimore one.  I was in Baltimore Saturday.  It 
is a three hour drive with DC traffic.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon (was: Movies and ancient costume) 
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On Jan 5, 2007, at 7:47 PM, TeaRoseS@aol.com wrote:
> Dawn and I wanted to go last year when it was in Des Moines, but I was
> dealing with a broken foot and the attendant medical bills and  
> couldn't spare  the
> price of registration. We drove up and visited the vendor hall, but  
> I have a
> feeling we missed all the fun stuff.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I had a blast at Des Moines, but attendance was pretty low; there are  
just too many other things to go to Memorial Day Weekend. That said,  
I skipped my local science fiction convention (something I haven't  
done since I moved to San Jose) to go to Costume-Con in Des Moines.

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/

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On Jan 5, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Suzanne wrote:
> Yes, I plan on going to CostumeCon.  Mostly for the Netherton  
> sequence  ;-)  but what the heck, might as well stay for Sunday,  
> too.  Since I've never gone before, what do I need to know ahead of  
> time?  Costuming is a hobby, not my profession, so I'm a little  
> worried about how I'll fit in.

Costume-Con was started (and is still organized) by costume hobbyists  
and amateurs. Some of us have gone pro, but most of us haven't; the  
costume business is a real bear to make a decent living in. The pros  
who attend are just as enthusiastic and friendly as the amateurs, and  
often find themselves thankful that the amateurs are content to stay  
amateurs.

Stay for Sunday night. The Historical Masquerade (stage competition)  
is on Sunday night, and people really pull out all the stops for it.  
You'll regret it if you don't.

If you can, come Friday. The Friday night social is always a blast,  
and with the Rock 'n' Roll theme, it's an excuse to throw together  
something more recently historical, like 1950's or 60's fashion. That  
or something based on Sophia Coppola's "Marie Antoinette."

> Like, what's a "hall costume"??!?  I'm assuming that we all wear  
> our stuff all the time but that you keep the competition main  
> entries under wraps until the last minute, so anything else is a  
> "hall" costume... is that about right?

Many of the traditions of Costume-Con come from fan-run science  
fiction conventions.  "Hall costumes" are an example of that. They're  
any sort of costume you wear around the halls, and they've been  
around since Forry Ackerman and a friend wore "futuristic" clothes to  
the first World Science Fiction Convention in 1939. There are  
pictures of Forry at
<http://www.noreascon.org/masquerade/>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Forrestcostuming.jpg>

The term is really just to differentiate between hall costume and  
presentation/competition costume. Presentation costumes need to work  
from the stage, and can be incredibly large and/or impractical. Hall  
costumes should be wearable for as long as you like, and convenient  
for sitting in panels, having dinner, going to parties, taking the  
elevator and other necessities.

Unlike some other costume conferences, Costume-Con encourages  
attendees to wear costumes throughout the weekend. Some people (the  
folks who aren't fighting luggage allowances) will go through several  
changes of clothes each day.

Many people build presentation costumes with the intent to wear the  
costumes (or part of the costume) in the halls at future events.  
Pierre and Sandy are infamous for the level of detail and  
practicality that they work into their stage costumes that you only  
see when they're wearing them (huge wings, floral collars or other  
uncomfortable whatnot removed) in the halls at another event.

> And because of CostumeCon, I've bumped the "orange Italian Ren" aka  
> "Hobby Lobby Florentine" (no spinach, just cabbage) to the top of  
> my list of projects to complete this year.  For the Sunday ORANGE  
> hall costume contest.

I think I'm wearing my sunglasses all Sunday.

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA - '72 R75/5 '86 R100 (mine) - '92 K75sa '03 R1150R  
(Kevin's)
       "It's not pink, it's peach-colored. Pink is tacky."
                --Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

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Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:51:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Here's the relevant quote from:
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&version=31>
Including the bit which your source says may have been
tweaked quite a bit:  

Luke2/4-7
"So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in
Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David,
because he belonged to the house and line of David. He
went there to register [for taxes] with Mary, who was
pledged to be married to him and was expecting a
child. While they were there, the time came for the
baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn,
a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a
manger, because there was no room for them in the
inn."
[My insertion]

So, according to Luke, no Marian connections in
Bethlehem.  

Ann in CT

--- Robin wrote:

> 
> No idea. I remember the family connections being
> explained, but this isn't
> my area of study, so I didn't retain the details. (
> 
> --Robin


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Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:47:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
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On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Ann Catelli wrote:

> Here's the relevant quote from:
> <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&version=31>
> Including the bit which your source says may have been
> tweaked quite a bit:  
> ...
> So, according to Luke, no Marian connections in
> Bethlehem.  

Perhaps it was Joseph's connection, then, which does seem pretty obvious.
I was listening to the report for pleasure, and this was some time ago;
what I came away remembering was that there was a pretty convincing
argument for why it would have been reasonable for them to contact local
relatives if they needed a place to stay. As I recall, the researcher also
talked a lot about living arrangements and local customs, including
hospitality.

--Robin


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10701082145130.14941-100000@shell.nightowl.net>
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Status: RO


Following up my own post -- a quick Google, as often happens, is enough to
shed light. Apparently this idea of the "guest room" with the manger has
been around for a while; some of the citations I'm seeing are to papers
from the 1970s and 1980s. Here are a couple of nice summary pages:

http://www.ancientsandals.com/articles/01_jesus_birth.htm
	With nice photos and diagrams.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/122206NazarethVillage.aspx

And not a word about costume in either of them, I think. Oh well.

--Robin

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From: "Elisabeth Doornink" <missdoornink@gmail.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 20:01:27 -0800
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Status: RO

Yeah, my pastor gave a sermon relating to this subject several weeks before
Christmas. In the Greek, the word that is usually translated 'inn' in Luke
is the same word used for the 'upper room' or 'guest room' in the Last
Supper. 

Thinking about it, it makes me feel sorry for Mary - stuck in a full house
with her husband-to-be's relatives, in labor with a child that obviously
wasn't Joeseph's.  

Quia Christus Perpetuo Regnat, 
Elisabeth
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Robin Netherton
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 7:58 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume


Following up my own post -- a quick Google, as often happens, is enough to
shed light. Apparently this idea of the "guest room" with the manger has
been around for a while; some of the citations I'm seeing are to papers
from the 1970s and 1980s. Here are a couple of nice summary pages:

http://www.ancientsandals.com/articles/01_jesus_birth.htm
	With nice photos and diagrams.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/122206NazarethVillage.aspx

And not a word about costume in either of them, I think. Oh well.

--Robin

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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 23:42:04 -0600
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I don't this it was obvious. I was told that Jewish custom considered
engagement a promise and therefore no stigma was placed on premarital sex,
so unless Joseph went around telling everyone that the child wasn't his
(which would have nullified the engagement) I don't think it was obvious.
Now as to the debate of whether God of a fashion impregnated Mary or that
Joseph was the biological father and God imbue spiritual gifts....is a
debate for another list.
De

-----Original Message-----
in labor with a child that obviously
wasn't Joeseph's.

Quia Christus Perpetuo Regnat,
Elisabeth


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From: Kathy Page <caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca>
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Status: RO

AH! That's the one! The exact one he pointed me to. I knew I had seen a pattern at some point, I just couldn't dig it out of the site. Thanks to everyone!


Kathy

There's a pattern and info at the Swedish Historiska
världar website:
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakter/vherre/vherrefr.htm
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf


You'll probably figure out what goes where from the drawings.

The stuff that is hard to figure out if you can't read the language;
Your waistbands lenght should be the same as your waistmeasurements.
The width of each pantleg is 3,20m between C and B. Cut 2.
Pleat where you see a dotted line between C and B.
 
Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules.

It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131

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In a message dated 1/9/2007 12:43:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

Now as  to the debate of whether God of a fashion impregnated Mary or that
Joseph  was the biological father and God imbue spiritual gifts....is a
debate for  another list.



**************
 
Like the whole thing is a myth [a lovely one, though] written long  after the 
event and Luke's death by some anonymous author. 
 
But that is a debate for another list, since it doesn't affect the  costuming.
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I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all 
necks of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past 
Sunday.  I'm wondering what you all thought of it, costume or 
otherwise?

Sylrog

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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Virgin Queen
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:14:28 -0500
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I watched part I this weekend. My first impression was that I sure  
have seen the story of these years and these relationships told in a  
number of interesting ways lately, and I am not sure if this version  
is adding anything of value. It seems sort of like a drier version of  
the story in the Cate Blanchett _Elizabeth_ movie, so far, and for  
all its inaccuracies, I liked that movie better. I also rather liked  
Helen Mirren's portrait in the _Elizabeth I_ miniseries. Costume- 
wise, my main quibble so far is that none of them seem to actually  
FIT the actress Anne Marie Duff.
That's my two cents.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 9, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote:

> I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all  
> necks of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past  
> Sunday.  I'm wondering what you all thought of it, costume or  
> otherwise?
>
> Sylrog
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:32:17 -0600
From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Virgin Queen
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Status: RO

Sylvia Rognstad wrote:

> I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all 
> necks of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past 
> Sunday.  I'm wondering what you all thought of it, costume or otherwise?
> 

I enjoyed it the first time it aired in 2005, but I'm not watching it 
the second time around. I thought they did a reasonable job of telling 
the story and making it realistic, but I seem to recall a lot of folks 
hated it.



Dawn



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Virgin Queen
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Status: RO

At 21:32 09/01/2007, you wrote:
>Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
>
>>I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all 
>>necks of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past 
>>Sunday.  I'm wondering what you all thought of it, costume or otherwise?
>
>I enjoyed it the first time it aired in 2005, but I'm not watching 
>it the second time around. I thought they did a reasonable job of 
>telling the story and making it realistic, but I seem to recall a 
>lot of folks hated it.
I made ruffs (so I know accuracy was not paramount!) for this show, 
and saw some of the clothes in the making - they were using Janet 
Arnold and Jean Hunnisett. However, they weren't using them very well 
in my opinion, as the clothes were no better than any of the other 
Elizabeth films in recent years.

Suzi 

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Virgin Quees
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Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Virgin Quees
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From: "Abel, Cynthia" <CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu>
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Status: RO

We have to all stop laughing at the costuming(yeah, right)since
historical accuracy, especially for the lead actors, has to always give
way to 1)budget, 2)director's vision, 3)what is aesthetically pleasing
right now to viewers--especially for the lead actors, and
4)budget(again).

I actually appreciated the film Marie Antoinette for pointedly being
up-front about not being strictly historically correct in costume--such
films or productions often end up seeming more historically correct.

Cindy Abel

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 1:57 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Virgin Quees

I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all 
necks of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past 
Sunday.  I'm wondering what you all thought of it, costume or 
otherwise?

Sylrog

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Jan  9 20:50:12 2007
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Subject: [h-cost] OT? Firefly/Serenity costumes....
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Status: RO

Hope this is okay....H-costume being the only relatively-general costume
list I'm on.
Has anyone out there ever done anything with the costumes from either the
movie or the series? For some reason, the recent thread about hall costumes
for CostumeCon, combined with a recent Serenity marathon, has created this
odd urge to make something...different.  Something that would look good
under a brown coat.  Oh, and a brown coat, of course.
I think it would be a lot of fun to play with the combinations of western,
chinese, and futuristic style elements....
--Sue, also feeling a craving for something from Middle
Earth.....*sigh*......I don't have enough time as it is! ;o)

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From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20070105163427.00d23510@pop8.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 22:45:03 -0500
Organization: Genteel Arts
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Subject: [h-cost] 1860s Conference
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Status: RO

(My apologies to those who are members of several lists and may be receiving
multiple copies of this message.)

This is a friendly reminder that registrations for the 2007 Ladies &
Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference must be post-marked, faxed, emailed or
phoned by January 29, 2007 to receive the discounted rate. Registrations
received after that date will be charged the full fee; deadline for all
reservations is February 10, 2007.

We are also pleased to announce that we are offering the junior registration
fee to full-time college students as well as to participants age 17 and
under. Please note your institution of higher learning on your registration
form.

While spaces are available for each of the pre-conference workshops and
seminars, some of the sessions are full. You are encouraged to register now
if you wish to attend a particular session; if the sessions you request are
full you will be accepted for your second or third choice of times. 

Don't forget to include your registration form if you're entering the
special competition for the best reproduction of a Civil War era quilted
petticoat. 

Our juried Marketplace will be open to conference participants and the
general public on Friday from 11AM-7PM, Saturday from 7:30AM-5:30PM, and
Sunday from 8AM-12:30PM.

In its thirteenth year, the Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference
offers a full program of presentations on the clothing and culture of the
mid-19th century, pre-conference workshops, tours and seminars, a juried
Marketplace and an extensive display of original garments and artifacts. The
conference will be held in Harrisburg (Camp Hill), PA on March 1-4, 2007.
The registration fee includes all meals on Saturday and Sunday.

Please contact me at the address below with any questions. 

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007

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From: "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <sharon@collierfam.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 23:46:18 -0800
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Status: RO

Since an "inn" of the time had everyone sleeping communally (I believe), who
wouldn't rather go through labor and delivery in the peace, privacy and
warmth of the barn/stable. That's what I would have chosen. I always thought
it funny that everyone seems to think it was a bad thing that they got the
stable.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 6:46 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies and ancient costume


 
In a message dated 1/9/2007 12:43:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

Now as  to the debate of whether God of a fashion impregnated Mary or that
Joseph  was the biological father and God imbue spiritual gifts....is a
debate for  another list.



**************
 
Like the whole thing is a myth [a lovely one, though] written long  after
the 
event and Luke's death by some anonymous author. 
 
But that is a debate for another list, since it doesn't affect the
costuming.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Jan 10 09:19:39 2007
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From: Judy Mitchell <judymitch@theoldforest.net>
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Sue Clemenger wrote:
> Hope this is okay....H-costume being the only relatively-general costume
> list I'm on.
> Has anyone out there ever done anything with the costumes from either the
> movie or the series? For some reason, the recent thread about hall costumes
> for CostumeCon, combined with a recent Serenity marathon, has created this
> odd urge to make something...different.

	You might ask on F-Costume 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F-Costume/?yguid=74924640> I know there 
have been some people who have made outfits there. And there are a 
number of groups/sites listed for Firefly/Serentiy on 
<http://www.alleycatscratch.com/movie/Costume_Links.htm#Movie>


> --Sue, also feeling a craving for something from Middle
> Earth.....*sigh*......I don't have enough time as it is! ;o)

	Don't forget <http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/> and the chat list 
at <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTR_Costume/> for that!


	-Judy Mitchell
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Subject: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
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Hi all, as you may know already, I am re-creating this gown for the Phoenix Art Museum.  http://tinyurl.com/y6phle<http://tinyurl.com/y6phle>
I think the bolster type French Farthingale would be most appropriate - ( like those in the oft sited French Dutch caricature).   Have any of you constructed this type?  How did you approach it?  

I started with a softly stuffed tube which gave a reasonable silhouette, but I'd like to hear what you have been successful with.  

Robin?  I know you have done this - but didn't see any construction details in your posts. 

Thanks,

Sg
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
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Status: RO


On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Saragrace Knauf wrote:

> I started with a softly stuffed tube which gave a reasonable
> silhouette, but I'd like to hear what you have been successful with.
> 
> Robin?  I know you have done this - but didn't see any construction
> details in your posts.

Odd, I thought I had that in there -- I remember talking about it on-list,
but I don't see it in the posts I collected on my website. It may have
been in later postings after I put together the collection.

I tried a cylindrical tube, but it didn't work for the size I needed; it
wouldn't bend well enough without too much creasing/bunching on the inner
curve. I also wanted it to be narrower and tapered in the front, and much
larger at the sides and back. So I tried two crescents, a top and bottom
one, with the bottom one larger for more depth and the top one smaller for
less roundness and a slightly flatter surface. (Think of a bagel with a
vertical cut at center front, slice the whole thing in half to make two
rounds, and then curve off some of the outer edge as you approach the
center front. Two crescents.)

That worked but not as well as the next iteration, in which I used roughly
trapezoidal wedges to produce the two crescents. (Think orange sections
with the tips cut off, and an "equator" line dividing the top and bottom.)
That not only allowed me to do some shaping along the sides of the
trapezoids, smoothing out the curves to create the correct shape, but also
to cut the entire thing out of a fraction of the fabric that I needed for
cutting full crescent shapes. It was very easy to tweak the fit, too,
because I had a lot of seam lines for adjustment.

In our case, the outer-edge seam line made a good place to attach a casing
for bents to create a stiffer rim, but this isn't evident in all the
images, and doesn't appear necessary for yours. You also probably don't
want much flattening of the top surface, so you might cut your top and
bottom halves the same proportions. But you'll still want to taper almost
to nothing in the front.

Here's a thread where I talked a little about some visual documentation
for the seaming:

http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion/index.cgi?l=hcos03&s=bum%20roll&Cmd=Match+1

See postings of March 16 and following.

If you call up the entire month as a text file:

http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives/hcos03/hcos03.cl

...you can find continuing discussion by searching on "bum roll".

If my description above doesn't cover the issue you were aiming at, please
tell me.

--Robin



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Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT? Firefly/Serenity costumes....
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:09:41 -0800
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Status: RO

I have done Firefly costumes, and have some links to other sites.

Silvara


> [Original Message]
> From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
> To: <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
> Date: 1/9/2007 5:50:22 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] OT? Firefly/Serenity costumes....
>
> Hope this is okay....H-costume being the only relatively-general costume
> list I'm on.
> Has anyone out there ever done anything with the costumes from either the
> movie or the series? For some reason, the recent thread about hall
costumes
> for CostumeCon, combined with a recent Serenity marathon, has created this
> odd urge to make something...different.  Something that would look good
> under a brown coat.  Oh, and a brown coat, of course.
> I think it would be a lot of fun to play with the combinations of western,
> chinese, and futuristic style elements....
> --Sue, also feeling a craving for something from Middle
> Earth.....*sigh*......I don't have enough time as it is! ;o)
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: "kelly grant" <estela_dufrayse@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:24:08 -0400
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Status: RO

Hi Saragrace

I just finished a similar outfit, and had a french farthingale underneath. 
I had started out with a flat boned article, held with a bolster about 1/2 
the diameter of the circle I wanted (depth?).  This I was later convinced 
wouldn't work, and so sewed a large casing to the outside of the flat 
farthingale and stuffed it with cotton.  I ended up wearing two bolsters.

You can see the flat farthingale and the first bolster on my website under 
'Estela's Projects'  I hope to have the website updated soon with the 
finished pieces.

The web address is www.goldenoakinn.com/projects_estela.htm

Let me know if this helps and if you have any other questions.  I will love 
to see your finished project!

Kelly

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "TheRenaissanceTailor" <TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; 
"h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?


Hi all, as you may know already, I am re-creating this gown for the Phoenix 
Art Museum.  http://tinyurl.com/y6phle<http://tinyurl.com/y6phle>
I think the bolster type French Farthingale would be most appropriate - ( 
like those in the oft sited French Dutch caricature).   Have any of you 
constructed this type?  How did you approach it?

I started with a softly stuffed tube which gave a reasonable silhouette, but 
I'd like to hear what you have been successful with.

Robin?  I know you have done this - but didn't see any construction details 
in your posts.

Thanks,

Sg
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
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In a message dated 1/10/2007 4:25:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
estela_dufrayse@hotmail.com writes:

I  started with a softly stuffed tube which gave a reasonable silhouette, but 
 
I'd like to hear what you have been successful  with.



************************
 
Nice gown. Boy, the ruff will be fun, no?
 
A stuffed bolster is the way to go since it has that Dutch feel and should  
be sorta soft and bulky.
 
You can get a better shape if the "tube" is shaped,  curved a bit and  cut in 
2 identical pieces, an upper and lower piece. I've made one out of  heavy 
knit, which curves easier around the body, but this isn't period as far as  I 
know. Cloth on the bias might help and actually be period. And in the  
caricatures, if I remember correctly, there are bands of trim going around the  width of 
the bolster every so often. These might also be casings for bones [  and/or 
seams or darts] to help the padded thing keep it's shape [in both  directions]. 
You might try some Rigelene or cable ties or some kind of boning at  
intervals. 
 
And I'd make it pretty, y'know. Some interesting fabric with some trim.  
Makes a person more inclined to wear the thing. And since you have to cut and  
make it anyway, have some fun.
 
 
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From: Avien <aviendiora@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT? Firefly/Serenity costumes....
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Status: RO

Hi!

I've done a few costumes from both Serenity and Firefly and there are
several more on the to-do list.  I've done mostly repros rather than
something based off of the series so far but it would be a lot of fun just
to create something that would fit in.  Maybe for the next Browncoat Ball.
=)  And so far I have three browncoats, two I made and one was just a lucky
find at a thrift store, and I have at least one more planned.  They're good
just for wearing, don't even need an event so you can never have too many.

Avien

On 1/9/07, Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com> wrote:
>
> Hope this is okay....H-costume being the only relatively-general costume
> list I'm on.
> Has anyone out there ever done anything with the costumes from either the
> movie or the series? For some reason, the recent thread about hall
> costumes
> for CostumeCon, combined with a recent Serenity marathon, has created this
> odd urge to make something...different.  Something that would look good
> under a brown coat.  Oh, and a brown coat, of course.
> I think it would be a lot of fun to play with the combinations of western,
> chinese, and futuristic style elements....
> --Sue, also feeling a craving for something from Middle
> Earth.....*sigh*......I don't have enough time as it is! ;o)
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Status: RO

Hi,
I had bookmarked a website someone on 18th c womans list had posted long 
time ago, perhaps anybody here did the same?
Its a university in USA who uploaded a large collection of the Galleries des 
Modes et Costumes francaises in high resolution.
I have desperately looked for the bookmark, but i dont have it anymore.
Anybody know where it is, please send it for the list!

Many thanks

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
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Status: RO

Dear Saragrace,
Your link didnt work for me, is there a chance you could post it again?
As for a small flat wheel i made the pattern from Jean Hunnisets book, used 
a flat steel in the outer edge. I didnt slide in the steel to a casing, but 
i made a tape for the steel wich i sewed together to a ring, and then 
attached to the edge. At the waist i made a drawstring. When the waist was 
tightened, the outer edge got tight and nice. I made a small bumroll in the 
back attached to the wheel.
This worked fine for a dress with a ruffle pinned to the wheel made of 
dupioni silk.
But now i couldnt see wich type of dress you are working on, perhaps it is 
only a bolster farthingale you want?

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "TheRenaissanceTailor" <TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; 
"h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:06 PM
Subject: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?


Hi all, as you may know already, I am re-creating this gown for the Phoenix 
Art Museum.  http://tinyurl.com/y6phle<http://tinyurl.com/y6phle>
I think the bolster type French Farthingale would be most appropriate - ( 
like those in the oft sited French Dutch caricature).   Have any of you 
constructed this type?  How did you approach it?

I started with a softly stuffed tube which gave a reasonable silhouette, but 
I'd like to hear what you have been successful with.

Robin?  I know you have done this - but didn't see any construction details 
in your posts.

Thanks,

Sg
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Subject: [h-cost] 'fun' Ruff -was  French Farthingale construction tips?
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Status: RO

Yeah, I started the actual ruff yesterday.  (My noodlings on it are on the site).  I timed myself yesterday; it took me almost two hours just to split the six yards into 4 pieces, (thank goodness, organza tears nicely) then press, insert the braid and sew just one section!  Yikes!

Sg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlbertCat@aol.com<mailto:AlbertCat@aol.com> 
  To: h-costume@indra.com<mailto:h-costume@indra.com> 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:01 PM

  ************************
   
  Nice gown. Boy, the ruff will be fun, no?
   
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From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <efe8801ac71725357aa6ea5e5abcdce5@ntw.net><45A409E1.3010208@reddawn.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070109213456.034d3d88@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Virgin Queen
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:11:15 -0500
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Status: RO

I just watched this 'at home' over the hollidays and was puzzled especially 
by the skirt extensions (or lack of same)..Your suggestion about the 
designers were using the right scholarship but ...badly...  is certainly my 
take on the overall projection of Ren Fashion. I was also quite put off with 
the appearances of "dirty linen" showing at the neckline.  I assume that it 
was unbleached muslin.  Knowing what the Inventories list and how much 
Elizabeth loved dressing up, I don't think that this take on realism suits 
well with her (presumed) character.

Finally watched the latest (!!) Pride and Prejudice last eve and if ever 
there was a film that proclaims the Publication Date, this is certainly one 
of them.  Again, the skirts caught my eye first.  Oh how they clung and how 
billowy .  Silk "on the farm?"  I don't think so.  I was also disappointed 
that more of Jane Austin in the script was not used.  The whole farm setting 
was not quite what I think "Living in the Country" was in the early 19th C 
for a middleclass family down in funds. The whole interpretation of 
Elizabeths character lacked the depth that other productions have succeeded 
in making her out to be. Therefor,
P&P is hardly more than a working title with some casche.

Kathleen



----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Virgin Queen


> At 21:32 09/01/2007, you wrote:
>>Sylvia Rognstad wrote:
>>
>>>I don't know if the PBS series "The Virgin Queen" is showing in all necks 
>>>of the woods, but it just started here in Colorado this past Sunday.  I'm 
>>>wondering what you all thought of it, costume or otherwise?
>>
>>I enjoyed it the first time it aired in 2005, but I'm not watching it the 
>>second time around. I thought they did a reasonable job of telling the 
>>story and making it realistic, but I seem to recall a lot of folks hated 
>>it.
> I made ruffs (so I know accuracy was not paramount!) for this show, and 
> saw some of the clothes in the making - they were using Janet Arnold and 
> Jean Hunnisett. However, they weren't using them very well in my opinion, 
> as the clothes were no better than any of the other Elizabeth films in 
> recent years.
>
> Suzi
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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Status: RO

I've got a really stupid question, but recently a costumer who I thought knew a lot about clothing, historical finds of original garments etc. made doubts about spiral lacing as the only lacing style in middle ages. She made some sort of a pourpoint and it was laced by criss-cross lacing. When I told her I was not too sure about the accuracy, she answered she was not sure that there was only one lacing style used in that time.
  What do you think about that? When came criss-cross lacing in? 
   
  Thanks,
   
  Zuzana

 
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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Status: RO

You can find crisscross but not as common as spiral. Also it may depend on
region and era.

Using Florentine late 15th century as example:

spiral
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor1.html

Spiral w/a twist
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor8.html

crisscross with a twist
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor5.html

crisscross
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor3.html
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor20.html

ladder
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor4.html
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor9.html
http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/3flor11.html
De

-----Original Message-----
I've got a really stupid question, but recently a costumer who I thought
knew a lot about clothing, historical finds of original garments etc. made
doubts about spiral lacing as the only lacing style in middle ages. She made
some sort of a pourpoint and it was laced by criss-cross lacing. When I told
her I was not too sure about the accuracy, she answered she was not sure
that there was only one lacing style used in that time.
  What do you think about that? When came criss-cross lacing in?

  Thanks,

  Zuzana


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Subject: [h-cost] Catching up on old miniseries [was, Virgin Queen]
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Status: RO

And I'm seeing for the 1st time the "Bleak House" with Gillian Anderson. I  
liked very much the Diana Rigg version. This one is much "bleaker"...babba 
bing.  Everyone looks great, but it's all too grey and dreary so far. I know much 
of it  is SUPPOSED to be but part of that is the contrast with the not so 
dreary  places. Everywhere is grey in this production so far. Gillian looks great 
[and  is quite good, but I expected her to be], still there is something about 
her  look....I can't put my finger on it... The Deadlock's world should be 
posh and  expensive and full of the things that everyone wants, but at the same 
time empty  and cold. All that Victorian brickerbrack should somehow appear  
unsatisfying. So far it's just dark.
And the weird sorta space-age transitions...swoosh! Wassup w'that?
But I've got a long way to go so I don't want to be hard on it. It's really  
quite good in spite of my vague complaints.
 
I also saw for the 1st time "Gangs of New York". Boy...Leo does nothing for  
me and Cameron Diaz....shudder! Still, Daniel Day Lewis is as usual amazing. I 
 like the costumes. I didn't mind the strange mix of oriental stuff when 
they're  in the oriental circus. And the upper crust ladies and gents look  
fantastic....though there are few of those. I liked the color put into the  gangs, 
and the dandy look of the leaders. This is just a notion taken from  today's 
gangs rendered in period. And since the thing is a fairy tale....even  though it 
used a few historical events...a little imagination doesn't bother me.  I 
just like Sandy Powell's style, and that's all there is to it. I should go  watch 
"Orlando" and "Velvet Goldmine" again....
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:05:08 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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In a message dated 1/11/2007 4:12:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
zkraemerova@yahoo.com writes:

What do  you think about that? When came criss-cross lacing in?  



Spiral lacing is usually the method for utilitarian lacing, like up  closings 
and stuff. But there is also decorative lacing. We had a discussion  about it 
not long ago. There some examples of  late Gothic and early Renn.  lacing up 
the front of gowns that criss-crossed, looped, and did all manner of  
decorative patterns meant to be seen.... if I remember correctly.
Criss-cross lacing for corsets and things comes with the industrial  
revolution.... the cord being machine made now instead of by hand and therefore  cheap 
enough to use twice the length. Also, the tightness of the corsets at the  
time almost require it.
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From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:28:37 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Appearance of ladies' houpelandes???
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I'm in the early stages of thinking about undertaking a houp...like, in a
year or so, predicated, of course, on the theory that I'll actually have
built the correct garments to go *underneath* by then! ;o) I've been
wondering, though...when did they first start showing up as being worn by
women? I'm specifically interested in the earlier styles....
--Sue, in a sunny-but-cold Montana winter (brrr...darned good time to stay
in and look through costuming books, and peruse fabric stash.....)

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> I'm in the early stages of thinking about undertaking a houp...like,
> in a year or so, predicated, of course, on the theory that I'll
> actually have built the correct garments to go *underneath* by then!
> ;o) I've been wondering, though...when did they first start showing up
> as being worn by women?

I've seen them in English brasses from the 1390s or so, but most of the
manuscript images I can think of are 1400-1430.

Be aware, too, that in the 1380s and 1390s you see some gowns that look
like early versions of what we call houppelandes now -- full in the body
but not quite so full as later, high neckline or a bit of a collar but not
the very tall ones yet, fairly narrow but not tight sleeves that haven't
yet grown into the big bells or bags. The transition is gradual, so it's
hard to point to a moment when the gowns officially qualify as
"houppelandes," and probably most of the people at the time called them
all "gowns" (or their language's equivalent of that word) anyway.

--Robin


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	<00cf01c71be0$076f7e00$2f01a8c0@HELENPINTO>
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Status: RO

I was the very lucky winner of the original copy of the bulletin. It arrived
late last week and I'm enjoying it immensely. A very sincere thanks to Helen
for sharing it and all the scans with me and the list.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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Status: RO


As De has already shown, you can find all sorts of lacing patterns over
the course of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, particularly if you look at
a variety of fashions and in different places and times. But that doesn't
justify using different patterns interchangeably; each type of lacing
functioned a little differently. So some will work on some sorts of
garments, and others will not work as well. And of course, many things
were laced -- not just body garments, but also shoes, purses, and
utilitarian objects (horse tack? cart covers?). Each situation had its own
needs, and may have called for different types of lacing patterns.

AlbertCat wrote:

> Criss-cross lacing for corsets and things comes with the industrial
> revolution.... the cord being machine made now instead of by hand and
> therefore cheap enough to use twice the length. Also, the tightness of
> the corsets at the time almost require it.

One consideration is whether the goal is to create an unbroken visual
area. Spiral lacing allows you to overlap the sides, which is very useful
in lacing up parts of a gown where you want the lacing to act like a seam
(or, in modern equivalent, a zipper) and you don't want any gapping or
slipping. When you have laced something tightly with a spiral, it really
doesn't move or gap; the overlapping edges are the equivalent of a bunch
of layers wrapped round and round with a cord, almost like a flexible
bone. From a distance, the lacing is almost unnoticeable, and artists
often did not show it at all even when it's clear it was there (e.g. you
might see a dress being laced-up in one scene, and in the next, the lacing
isn't depicted at all).

With corsets, if I understand correctly, the edges typically were not
meant to overlap, and perhaps not even to abut. Spiral lacing wouldn't be
as effective as crisscross lacing in that case.

Bear in mind also that the modern understanding of crisscross lacing
usually means the way you'd lace your shoes -- you always come out of the
hole with each pass. That means the lace passes between the edges and you
physically can't overlap them, just abut them with a little room for the
laces to cross in between. Also, each hole holds only one lace; the laces
skip alternate holes as they zigzag up the opening.

Sometimes you see a criss-cross pattern in styles that are normally
associated with spiral lacing (e.g. 14th century fitted dresses). In the
cases I'm thinking of, this is not done with a modern criss-cross, but
with two spirals going in opposite directions. This creates a pattern of
connected X's (or diamonds, if you like) down the visible side, and a row
of "dashes" on the inside. It is very, very strong, and also doesn't have
the issue of the sides going slightly offset from each other as with a
single spiral lace, because the two laces are counterbalancing each other.
Also, with this sort of double-spiral lace, each lace goes through all the
holes, rather than skipping in zigzags the way modern criss-cross lacing
does, so it is very different from a modern criss-cross in several ways.
However, I've seen people point to the occasional double-spiral pattern on
a medieval brass as an example of criss-cross lacing. It isn't.

--Robin


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 00:45:41 -0500
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Status: RO

On Friday 12 January 2007 12:51 am, Robin Netherton wrote:
[snip]
> Sometimes you see a criss-cross pattern in styles that are normally
> associated with spiral lacing (e.g. 14th century fitted dresses). In the
> cases I'm thinking of, this is not done with a modern criss-cross, but
> with two spirals going in opposite directions. This creates a pattern of
> connected X's (or diamonds, if you like) down the visible side, and a row
> of "dashes" on the inside. It is very, very strong, and also doesn't have
> the issue of the sides going slightly offset from each other as with a
> single spiral lace, because the two laces are counterbalancing each other.
> Also, with this sort of double-spiral lace, each lace goes through all the
> holes, rather than skipping in zigzags the way modern criss-cross lacing
> does, so it is very different from a modern criss-cross in several ways.
> However, I've seen people point to the occasional double-spiral pattern on
> a medieval brass as an example of criss-cross lacing. It isn't.

Right.  Jen Thompson has a good discussion of spiral lacing, with pictorial 
examples and discussion, here:

http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/lacing/lacing.html



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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Status: RO

Hi,
I must admit that i dont believe that either, that spiral lacing was the 
only way it was done. Off cause they made as much variation as possible, for 
decorative purpose, they were not stupid!

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zuzana Kraemerova" <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: [h-cost] spiral lacing


> I've got a really stupid question, but recently a costumer who I thought 
> knew a lot about clothing, historical finds of original garments etc. made 
> doubts about spiral lacing as the only lacing style in middle ages. She 
> made some sort of a pourpoint and it was laced by criss-cross lacing. When 
> I told her I was not too sure about the accuracy, she answered she was not 
> sure that there was only one lacing style used in that time.
>  What do you think about that? When came criss-cross lacing in?
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Zuzana
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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Status: RO

  Sometimes you see a criss-cross pattern in styles that are normally
associated with spiral lacing (e.g. 14th century fitted dresses). In the
cases I'm thinking of, this is not done with a modern criss-cross, but
with two spirals going in opposite directions...."

  Can you give some concrete portraits or links where this can be seen? 
  Or another example of some other sorts of lacing used in the middle ages? 
  Could a "double spiral lacing" have been used for fastening pourpoints?

 
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Subject: [h-cost] URL Repost - Re:  French Farthingale construction tips?
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Status: RO

Bjarne, try these.  I have changed my settings to text only.  Hopefully they 
will come across better.

http://tinyurl.com/y6phle
http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html

Saragrace


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?


> Dear Saragrace,
> Your link didnt work for me, is there a chance you could post it again?
> 
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Subject: [h-cost] Robin - A specific question Re: French Farthingale
	construction tips?
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Status: RO

Robin, thank you for your help, I think I get most of it. In one of the last 
lines of your post though:


>  But you'll still want to taper almost to nothing in the front.>

Do you mean the whole bum roll, or just the pieces?  I am assuming you mean 
the pieces....'cause this roll looks pretty much the same size all the way 
round....

Just want to be sure.

Thanks,

Sg
 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Appearance of ladies' houpelandes???
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Status: RO

Thanks for the reminder on the terminology <g>.  It's awkward sometimes,
switching back and forth between terms used in a given period, and terms
used now, let alone oddities like "garb" that are subgroup specific.  ;o)
What I've been finding, graphically, certainly supports what you're saying.
I'm seeing bits and pieces in various texts (costuming books, mostly) that
mention the appearance of pleated gowns/houpelandes in men, earlier than in
women.  And I remember you talking in one of your lectures about wearing a
proper fitted gown as an underlayer for a houp.  Since, eventually, I'll
actually be making clothing appropriate for my SCA persona, who wears
English styles of the mid-late 1300s, I'm trying to pin down when houps
first appeared as feminine apparel, and in what forms.  I want to be able to
give myself more options than just a kirtle/fitted gown-and-surcoat
combination.  A couple of shifts, a couple of undergowns, and a couple of
options for the outer layer, ideally.  (Plus accessories, headgear, etc., of
course.)
I've got a friend with some books that have images of brasses--I'll check
those out.  Mostly what I've got, myself, is a moderately bad reprint of the
Tres Rich Heures, which I'll use if I have to....;o)
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Appearance of ladies' houpelandes???


> I've seen them in English brasses from the 1390s or so, but most of the
> manuscript images I can think of are 1400-1430.
>
> Be aware, too, that in the 1380s and 1390s you see some gowns that look
> like early versions of what we call houppelandes now -- full in the body
> but not quite so full as later, high neckline or a bit of a collar but not
> the very tall ones yet, fairly narrow but not tight sleeves that haven't
> yet grown into the big bells or bags. The transition is gradual, so it's
> hard to point to a moment when the gowns officially qualify as
> "houppelandes," and probably most of the people at the time called them
> all "gowns" (or their language's equivalent of that word) anyway.
>
> --Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Status: RO

... yes, Rose and the Dr. visited her mother quite a few times.  But now
that they're all in the alternate universe, no more Rose. :(

On 12/12/06, Andrew Trembley <attrembl@bovil.com> wrote:
>
> Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote:
> > At 04:53 PM 12/11/2006, you wrote:
> >> I have one in my garage (don't ask),
> >>
> >> -C.
> >>
> > Now you KNOW we have to ask!
> No, if she said she had one in her kitchen, asking would be imperative.
> Garage, not so much.
>
> (and I know why at least one person would have a police box in their
> kitchen)
>
> andy
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin - A specific question Re: French Farthingale
	construction tips?
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Saragrace Knauf wrote:

> Do you mean the whole bum roll, or just the pieces?  I am assuming you
> mean the pieces....'cause this roll looks pretty much the same size
> all the way round....

My impression was that it protruded less in the front than in the back,
but I may have been wrong. If it does protrude less in front, then taper
your roll so it's a crescent rather than a donut when viewed from the top.

This is often easier to see in sculpture! There are several variables that
affect the fall of the front of the skirt -- degree of protrusion is one,
and tilt is another.

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
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Dear List

I am about to make a final (i.e. not in calico/muslin) robe a la francaise: its primary purpose will be display for photographs and showing at wedding fairs etc., to try and persuade people that period clothing is lovely etc etc.  Now I'm swithering about fabric - the two choices are a) expensive, pretty and therefore out of my league, realistically or b) sort of appropriate, synthetic and more obtainable. 

Since I'll end up having to use a cheaper fabric this time around, does anyone have recommendations on what is more appropriate? OK, I can't be completely authentic but I'd rather avoid something that screams 'upholstery' and puts of anyone who knows anything about the period.

(Suppliers in the UK would be stupendous, but even links to pics of semi-appropriate would be terribly useful and appreciated).

Many thanks!
Katherine
p.s. got "Dangerous Liaisons" catalogue for Christmas - yummmy!!!
 
"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright


		
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
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Status: RO

Very easy,
Why not go for a lovely soft indian cotton?
I have seen some real ones made of the fine printed linnens, and considering 
the linnen was very fine and soft and cotton like, why not go for it.
Could be lovely in both printed or plain collours.

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "katherine sanders" <katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise


Dear List

I am about to make a final (i.e. not in calico/muslin) robe a la francaise: 
its primary purpose will be display for photographs and showing at wedding 
fairs etc., to try and persuade people that period clothing is lovely etc 
etc.  Now I'm swithering about fabric - the two choices are a) expensive, 
pretty and therefore out of my league, realistically or b) sort of 
appropriate, synthetic and more obtainable.

Since I'll end up having to use a cheaper fabric this time around, does 
anyone have recommendations on what is more appropriate? OK, I can't be 
completely authentic but I'd rather avoid something that screams 
'upholstery' and puts of anyone who knows anything about the period.

(Suppliers in the UK would be stupendous, but even links to pics of 
semi-appropriate would be terribly useful and appreciated).

Many thanks!
Katherine
p.s. got "Dangerous Liaisons" catalogue for Christmas - yummmy!!!

"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright



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From: Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@bovil.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Tardis
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:42:32 -0800
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Status: RO


On Jan 12, 2007, at 7:27 AM, Kristin wrote:
> On 12/12/06, Andrew Trembley <attrembl@bovil.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote:
>> > At 04:53 PM 12/11/2006, you wrote:
>> >> I have one in my garage (don't ask),
>> >>
>> >> -C.
>> >>
>> > Now you KNOW we have to ask!
>> No, if she said she had one in her kitchen, asking would be  
>> imperative.
>> Garage, not so much.
>>
>> (and I know why at least one person would have a police box in their
>> kitchen)
>
> ... yes, Rose and the Dr. visited her mother quite a few times.   
> But now
> that they're all in the alternate universe, no more Rose. :(

Well... Adam's mom did have a Tardis in her living room once, but I  
was talking "person" and not "fictional character."

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] spiral lacing
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:

>   Sometimes you see a criss-cross pattern in styles that are normally
> associated with spiral lacing (e.g. 14th century fitted dresses). In
> the cases I'm thinking of, this is not done with a modern criss-cross,
> but with two spirals going in opposite directions...."
> 
>   Can you give some concrete portraits or links where this can be
> seen?

In Rougham, Suffolk, England, is a 1405 brass to Sir R. Drury and his
wife. The lady's fitted dress clearly has a series of connected X's
(forming diamond shapes) going up the front. Her sleeves are
knuckle-length and buttoned. I don't know if this is online; the search
function at the MBS site doesn't seem to be working at the moment. But you
can find it in Muriel Clayton's "Catalogue of Rubbings of Brasses and
Incised Slabs," from the Victoria and Albert Museum, published by HMSO
(London); I have the 1979 edition, which was all over the place some years
ago and is probably available via ILL if you're really keen on seeing it.

Looking further, I see this source may be problematic. I have another
image of the brass in another book (very obscure, a locally published
catalog of Suffolk brasses) that shows the X's better, and each one is
engraved as a single diamond-shaped quatrefoil, perhaps meant to look like
buttons. Then again, I've never seen diamond-shaped buttons, so this could
be the result of the brass designer drawing the design with lacings, and
the engraver (or the purchaser) deciding that wasn't fancy enough and
tarting up the connected diamonds so that they look more like buttons
(which were common on brasses of this style in England). From my
experience with brasses, I can attest that this is not unheard-of -- you
can get some really weird things going on with brasses as the stock
designs pass through additional hands and as patrons request changes.

I have seen occasional double-spirals elsewhere, but no images are coming
to hand at this instant, and I'm not keen to go through my entire
collection.

>   Or another example of some other sorts of lacing used in the middle
> ages?

Spiral lacing, with its diagonal lines, is easy to find. The marble effigy
of the Countess of Warwick (1370s) in St. Mary's Church, Warwick, shows
clear spiral lacing on offset holes, with a pair of even holes at both top
and bottom. I show slides of this sculpture in my lecture on the fitted
dress (the lecture I'm giving at CostumeCon), and you can find a decent
photo in Margaret Scott's "Visual History of Costume: The 14th and 15th
centuries," fig. 28.

The more you look, the more of these you see, though they are most likely
to be apparent in images where the lacing is partly opened. The Rohan
Hours illumination of the nursing Madonna shows a gold dress laced with
red cord, with the dress half-open and the spiral pattern very clear. The
Fouquet portrait of Agnes Sorel as the Virgin, better known for the
exposed breast and the over-the-bust seams, has a single lace that zigzags
up on what must be inset lacing rings that would be invisible when the
dress is shut.

For dresses laced closed, illuminators are more likely to treat the lacing
as invisible, but not always. I remember snapping a photo of some minor
anonymous illumination in the Philadelphia Art Museum (a loose leaf in the
collection, not on public display) because it had a nice neat spiral lace
on a fitted dress.

My interest centers on England/France/Flanders through the mid 15th
century. Go further afield and later in time, and you see more variations.
There are loads of decorative styles of lacing in Italy and Germany in the
15th century and later, including ladder lacing, lacing that loops around
itself with each pass, and so forth. Many of these are on styles where the
sides of bodices are meant to stay open over a decorative underlayer, so
the lacing is done in a decorative way as well.

>   Could a "double spiral lacing" have been used for fastening
> pourpoints?

Certainly it could, but I think a single spiral would probably be
sufficient. It's certainly much more common in the visual sources.

One of the things to think about is how this affects your lacing holes. If
you intend to do a single spiral lace, you might put your lacing holes
offset, so that the top edge lines up evenly after you've pulled it shut.
(This has been discussed here before, so I won't go into detail now; if
you don't understand that, just ask.) If you make your lacing holes even
on both sides, you have two options. One is to do a double spiral, which
keeps the sides even. The other is to do a single spiral and let the top
be a little uneven; this also shows up in some of the images (the ones
I'm thinking of are Italian and/or mid-15th century).

If your friend made her pourpoint with even lacing holes, then a
double-spiral lace would be a lot more secure, and more easily
documentable, than a modern criss-cross.

--Robin

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Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:25:14 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
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Status: RO

They make some very lovely synthetic taffetas. Try to get one that's not so  
heavy. 
 
Now having said that, I  do like some of the oriental satin  brocades you 
find at Jo Ann's.... if you can find one that isn't dragons or  bamboo. I've 
found some with a butter yellow background covered with little  multicolor 
flowers. Also one in coffee with black flowers evenly spread across  it. Also a cream 
one with chrysanthemums. These can be a little heavy but they  look very 
rich. Polyester is not a dreadful as it used to be. Sometimes it looks  exactly 
like silk, though never feels like it.
 
Also chintz...striped or floral....can be perfect. Check the drapery  
department, but make a huge effort to choose something that doesn't look like  
curtains [even though many real gowns do].
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Appearance of ladies' houpelandes???
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Status: RO


On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> I've got a friend with some books that have images of brasses--I'll check
> those out.  Mostly what I've got, myself, is a moderately bad reprint of the
> Tres Rich Heures, which I'll use if I have to....;o)

If you ILL one book, let it be Margaret Scott's "Visual History of
Costume: The 14th and 15th Centuries." Lots of primary images smack on
target for you, many of them brasses or effigies that aren't easy to find
elsewhere.


--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when  
women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?  
Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and  
I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.  
Does anyone have this info easily at hand?
Thanks!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Tardis
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> > ... yes, Rose and the Dr. visited her mother quite a few times.
> > But now
> > that they're all in the alternate universe, no more Rose. :(
> 

Ah, so much for watching that last episodde if it ever gets repeated,

-C.


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From: stilskin@netspace.net.au
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when
> women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?


When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen.

Sorry, couldn't resist,

-C.


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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:17:07 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-)
And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age?
Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know,  
HISTORICALLY when, ahem. The Apron appeared.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 12, 2007, at 7:09 PM, stilskin@netspace.net.au wrote:

>> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when
>> women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?
>
>
> When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen.
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist,
>
> -C.
>
>
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From: "Alexandria Doyle" <garbaholic@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

German Ladies were wearing them in the 16th century.  Not neccessarily the
beginning, but a point to start from.

alex


On 1/12/07, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-)
> And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age?
> Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know,
> HISTORICALLY when, ahem. The Apron appeared.
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 7:09 PM, stilskin@netspace.net.au wrote:
>
> >> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when
> >> women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?
> >
> >
> > When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen.
> >
> > Sorry, couldn't resist,
> >
> > -C.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Alexandria Doyle wrote:

> German Ladies were wearing them in the 16th century.  Not neccessarily the
> beginning, but a point to start from.

They're in the Luttrell Psalter, early 1300s.

--Robin

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Aprons
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:58:13 -0600
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the rectangular shape can be seen in the 1300s but when they added the waist
tie I don't know. Some mid 1500s Germanic portraits look like they might
have the waist tie.
Sorry I have no specifics.
De

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Lauren Walker
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 5:58 PM
To: h-costume h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] Aprons


Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when
women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?
Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and
I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.
Does anyone have this info easily at hand?
Thanks!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Aprons
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A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron,
with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part.
Sharon

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Lauren Walker
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:58 PM
To: h-costume h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] Aprons


Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when  
women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?  
Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and  
I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.  
Does anyone have this info easily at hand?
Thanks!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
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Check out bridal fabrics.
 
They aren't all white and ivory these days, and some of the patterns are  
surprizingly historical (in look anyway).
 
Plus, bridal no longer means just expensive silk  :o)


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Status: RO

At 12:36 13/01/2007, you wrote:
>Dear Saragrace,
>These were much better. Thankyou for showing.
>Boy this is an interresting thing to make. Are you planning on 
>making as much decoration on the stomacher as the portrait, what is 
>it going to be made from?
>For the cuff laces, how about considering to purchase some of the 
>lace Ninya Michaela has on her website? They had a lace manufacturer 
>make a reproduktion renaissance lace. I baught and have 10 meters of 
>it, for a dress i maybe wil make in the future. Its a nice lace, but 
>even it looks real, the weight of it is two heavy. But you cant get 
>it all these days.............
>
>Bjarne

Ninya no longer has any of this lace for sale, but is considering 
ordering more. Details on her web site. http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/

Suzi

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Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 07:36:00 -0600
From: "jordana robinson" <mylaar@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

is it this?  "the chocolate girl" by liotard, circa 1743:
http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html

i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the
renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i
don't work there or anything.  and i think it would be funny if
someone recognized it).

On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com <sharon@collierfam.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron,
> with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part.
> Sharon
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] URL Repost - Re:  French Farthingale construction tips?
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Status: RO

Dear Saragrace,
These were much better. Thankyou for showing.
Boy this is an interresting thing to make. Are you planning on making as 
much decoration on the stomacher as the portrait, what is it going to be 
made from?
For the cuff laces, how about considering to purchase some of the lace Ninya 
Michaela has on her website? They had a lace manufacturer make a 
reproduktion renaissance lace. I baught and have 10 meters of it, for a 
dress i maybe wil make in the future. Its a nice lace, but even it looks 
real, the weight of it is two heavy. But you cant get it all these 
days.............

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: [h-cost] URL Repost - Re: French Farthingale construction tips?


> Bjarne, try these.  I have changed my settings to text only.  Hopefully 
> they will come across better.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y6phle
> http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html
>
> Saragrace
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Farthingale construction tips?
>
>
>> Dear Saragrace,
>> Your link didnt work for me, is there a chance you could post it again?
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lauren Walker" <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
To: "h-costume h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Aprons


> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when  women 
> began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?  Too many 
> of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and  I just can't 
> seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.  Does anyone have 
> this info easily at hand?
> Thanks!
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons 
http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell 
Psalter like Robin said.
HTH
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <c7f.4b05954.32da129f@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
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Status: RO

Another fabric wich isnt that difficult to work with would be Moiré Antique, 
its usually made of polyester these days, comes in many yummy shades. In one 
of my catalogues there is a darkblue robe francaise in watered silk, very 
nice and it would also have the right thickness and stiffnes for this kind 
of robe.
But actually the cotton version i suggested you, looks very nice also. Its 
an italian robe, used for summer wear.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Debloughcostumes@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise


>
>
>
> Check out bridal fabrics.
>
> They aren't all white and ivory these days, and some of the patterns are
> surprizingly historical (in look anyway).
>
> Plus, bridal no longer means just expensive silk  :o)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 02:32:44 -0800
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Status: RO

Don't know if you are near San Jose, CA, but Fabrics R Us is very low
priced, for silks, brocades, fancies.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:25 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric for robe a la francaise


They make some very lovely synthetic taffetas. Try to get one that's not so

heavy. 
 
Now having said that, I  do like some of the oriental satin  brocades you 
find at Jo Ann's.... if you can find one that isn't dragons or  bamboo. I've

found some with a butter yellow background covered with little  multicolor 
flowers. Also one in coffee with black flowers evenly spread across  it.
Also a cream 
one with chrysanthemums. These can be a little heavy but they  look very 
rich. Polyester is not a dreadful as it used to be. Sometimes it looks
exactly 
like silk, though never feels like it.
 
Also chintz...striped or floral....can be perfect. Check the drapery  
department, but make a huge effort to choose something that doesn't look
like  
curtains [even though many real gowns do].
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Subject: [h-cost] 17th century Dutch reproduction - was  URL Repost
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Status: RO

I have looked everywhere for fabric for the bodice - New York, 
Canada....there really was nothing similar to the black on "rust" 
embroidery.  I have found someone local, new to reproduction costume, who is 
interested in taking a stab at digitizing the embroidery. I have silk 
taffeta in approximately the same color for the base fabric.  I do intend to 
do the oak leaf shapes if she can reproduce the embroidery to my 
satisfaction.  She has already reproduced the little scrolly ribbon on the 
sleeves very well.

If that doesn't work, I have purchased enough some silk damask which, while 
beautiful, is really nothing like the original.

As to the lace, I don't think we can afford the handmade lace...pretty 
limited budget.  But I think I can find some stuff which will be adequate. 
The woman who may be doing the embroidery is also interested in digitizing 
the lace...I don't know if that will work.  She has done some reproduction 
16th century lace, but that was in squares..I didn't really care for it.


Hopefully I will be able to post what I have done so far...I have the corset 
completed.., started on the ruff, and have also started to work on the 
headdress, .now on to the bum-roll!

Sg


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] URL Repost - Re: French Farthingale construction tips?


> Dear Saragrace,
> These were much better. Thankyou for showing.
> Boy this is an interresting thing to make. Are you planning on making as
> much decoration on the stomacher as the portrait, what is it going to be
> made from?
> For the cuff laces, how about considering to purchase some of the lace 
> Ninya
> Michaela has on her website? They had a lace manufacturer make a
> reproduktion renaissance lace. I baught and have 10 meters of it, for a
> dress i maybe wil make in the future. Its a nice lace, but even it looks
> real, the weight of it is two heavy. But you cant get it all these
> days.............
>
> Bjarne
> 
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Aprons
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:51:00 -0600
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Status: RO

And the Manesse Codex but men.
1340
http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=124

But not the waist tie ones.
De


-----Original Message-----
> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when  women
> began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?  Too many
> of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and  I just can't
> seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.  Does anyone have
> this info easily at hand?
> Thanks!
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons
http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell
Psalter like Robin said.
HTH
Elizabeth


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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:53:43 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

"The Chocolate Girl" is very popular with 18th century re-enactors,  
who love her jacket and, I think her cap. So if you wore the outfit  
around any 18th-C folk, they would definitely recognize the picture.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 13, 2007, at 8:36 AM, jordana robinson wrote:

> is it this?  "the chocolate girl" by liotard, circa 1743:
> http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html
>
> i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the
> renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i
> don't work there or anything.  and i think it would be funny if
> someone recognized it).
>
> On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com <sharon@collierfam.com> wrote:
>> A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an  
>> apron,
>> with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part.
>> Sharon
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

Elizabeth,
Thank you very much for this link. The illustrations are particularly  
helpful.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 13, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauren Walker"  
> <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
> To: "h-costume h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] Aprons
>
>
>> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know  
>> when  women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist  
>> strings type?  Too many of my history-of-costume books are in  
>> storage right now and  I just can't seem to recall when they start  
>> showing up in the art.  Does anyone have this info easily at hand?
>> Thanks!
>> Lauren
>> Lauren M. Walker
>> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>>
> This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with  
> aprons http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to  
> be the Luttrell Psalter like Robin said.
> HTH
> Elizabeth
> --------------------------------------------
> Elizabeth Walpole
> Canberra Australia
> ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
> http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

Thanks, De. This one is interesting, too.
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote:

> And the Manesse Codex but men.
> 1340
> http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=124
>
> But not the waist tie ones.
> De
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know  
>> when  women
>> began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type?   
>> Too many
>> of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and  I  
>> just can't
>> seem to recall when they start showing up in the art.  Does anyone  
>> have
>> this info easily at hand?
>> Thanks!
>> Lauren
>> Lauren M. Walker
>> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>>
> This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons
> http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the  
> Luttrell
> Psalter like Robin said.
> HTH
> Elizabeth
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment
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Status: RO

 From the next Pirates movie:

This is being described in the promo literature as "asian inspired". 
Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based on? That 
looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her shoulder, and an 
underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.

http://www.slashfilm.com/images/articles/20070111pirates3photos_5.jpg


And I predict a resurgence of shoulder pads and leather bracelets at 
renfest  this year.


Dawn



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From: "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <sharon@collierfam.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Aprons
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:36:30 -0800
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Status: RO

Lovely, but, no. I found the image. If you go to www.allposters.com and put
in "young girl with racket and shuttlecock", you will see it.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of jordana robinson
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 5:36 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons


is it this?  "the chocolate girl" by liotard, circa 1743:
http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html

i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the
renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i
don't work there or anything.  and i think it would be funny if
someone recognized it).

On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com <sharon@collierfam.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron,
> with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part.
> Sharon
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From: "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <sharon@collierfam.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] 17th century Dutch reproduction - was  URL Repost
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:38:09 -0800
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Status: RO

I know there are embroidery machines out there that allow you to "draw" with
a stylus onto their screen, for a custom design.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Saragrace Knauf
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 9:10 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] 17th century Dutch reproduction - was URL Repost


I have looked everywhere for fabric for the bodice - New York, 
Canada....there really was nothing similar to the black on "rust" 
embroidery.  I have found someone local, new to reproduction costume, who is

interested in taking a stab at digitizing the embroidery. I have silk 
taffeta in approximately the same color for the base fabric.  I do intend to

do the oak leaf shapes if she can reproduce the embroidery to my 
satisfaction.  She has already reproduced the little scrolly ribbon on the 
sleeves very well.

If that doesn't work, I have purchased enough some silk damask which, while 
beautiful, is really nothing like the original.

As to the lace, I don't think we can afford the handmade lace...pretty 
limited budget.  But I think I can find some stuff which will be adequate. 
The woman who may be doing the embroidery is also interested in digitizing 
the lace...I don't know if that will work.  She has done some reproduction 
16th century lace, but that was in squares..I didn't really care for it.


Hopefully I will be able to post what I have done so far...I have the corset

completed.., started on the ruff, and have also started to work on the 
headdress, .now on to the bum-roll!

Sg


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] URL Repost - Re: French Farthingale construction tips?


> Dear Saragrace,
> These were much better. Thankyou for showing.
> Boy this is an interresting thing to make. Are you planning on making as
> much decoration on the stomacher as the portrait, what is it going to be
> made from?
> For the cuff laces, how about considering to purchase some of the lace 
> Ninya
> Michaela has on her website? They had a lace manufacturer make a
> reproduktion renaissance lace. I baught and have 10 meters of it, for a
> dress i maybe wil make in the future. Its a nice lace, but even it looks
> real, the weight of it is two heavy. But you cant get it all these
> days.............
>
> Bjarne
> 
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 17:57:20 -0500
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On Saturday 13 January 2007 5:26 pm, Dawn wrote:
>  From the next Pirates movie:
>
> This is being described in the promo literature as "asian inspired".
> Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based on? That
> looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her shoulder, and an
> underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.
>
> http://www.slashfilm.com/images/articles/20070111pirates3photos_5.jpg

It looks more Mughal to me than anything else.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment
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http://i12.tinypic.com/2qn5jzt.jpg

Another view of the same costume. It looks like something the Mongol 
soldiers would wear. The hat however looks to be from some other period ... 
Hollywood borrows from everywhere creatively at least. :)

Chiara

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment


> From the next Pirates movie:
>
> This is being described in the promo literature as "asian inspired". 
> Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based on? That 
> looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her shoulder, and an 
> underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.
>
> http://www.slashfilm.com/images/articles/20070111pirates3photos_5.jpg
>
>
> And I predict a resurgence of shoulder pads and leather bracelets at 
> renfest  this year.
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

> Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-)
> And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age?
> Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know,
>

Who cares when they were four so long as they included chocolate in the cake 
icing,

-C.


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Subject: [h-cost] "Asian-inspired"
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Status: RO

This is being described in the promo literature as "asian  inspired".
> Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based  on? That
> looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her  shoulder, and an
> underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.
 
Looks a lot like stuff from the area around the Caucusus or maybe  Carpathian 
Mountains ie. Romania, Macedonia in terms of muliple buttons and  embroidery. 
 The hat looks definitely Mongolian or from that part of the  world.  Belt 
and collar also more Asian.  My 2 cents.
 
Cheryl Odom

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:00:53 -0600
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Status: RO

Khalkha man's winter cap
http://www.skiouros.net/varia/ncmpr/ncmpr004.htm
http://www.skiouros.net/varia/ncmpr/ncmpr006.htm
tortsog
http://www.skiouros.net/varia/ncmpr/ncmpr008.htm
godon
http://www.skiouros.net/varia/ncmpr/ncmpr012.htm

As for the outfit, it seems to lean towards Mongolian closer to a Barga or
Buryat(sp?) woman's winter outfit or a Bayad woman's outfit. But I have not
seen any men's with the opening up the center but I am not an expert and so
have not seen all garments pertaining to Mongolia. There may be some
influence from Dynasty Warriors. http://www.yueying.net/dw/

-----Original Message-----
http://i12.tinypic.com/2qn5jzt.jpg

Another view of the same costume. It looks like something the Mongol
soldiers would wear. The hat however looks to be from some other period ...
Hollywood borrows from everywhere creatively at least. :)

Chiara

----- Original Message -----
> From the next Pirates movie:
>
> This is being described in the promo literature as "asian inspired".
> Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based on? That
> looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her shoulder, and an
> underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.
>
> http://www.slashfilm.com/images/articles/20070111pirates3photos_5.jpg
>


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

Found a retangle apron at the waist in a burgundian site but is did not have
the waist band.

De


-----Original Message-----
Thanks, De. This one is interesting, too.
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net





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Status: RO

Aha! A question I can answer! :0)

The coat is not based on anything, it's a Turkish Ottoman style caftan probably bought from a Turkish import shop. I used to find these at garage sales and at second hand clothing stores quite often. I used to have a stunning blue and silver one just like in your picture - except that I outgrew it. *sigh*

check here for some pictures (only a few are the coat style):

http://www.artemisimports.com/caftans/

Sheridan P.


> 
> From: Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net>
> Date: 2007/01/13 Sat PM 05:26:25 EST
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] Help me ID this mid-east/ asian garment
> 
>  From the next Pirates movie:
> 
> This is being described in the promo literature as "asian inspired". 
> Anyone got a better idea what this embroidered coat is based on? That 
> looks like an embroidered seam line at the back of her shoulder, and an 
> underarm gusset. After that, I'm not sure.
> 
> http://www.slashfilm.com/images/articles/20070111pirates3photos_5.jpg
> 
> 
> And I predict a resurgence of shoulder pads and leather bracelets at 
> renfest  this year.
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Status: RO

I just dropped my reg in the mail.  Hey Pierre, count me as going 
because of Robin!  Not that I wouldn't have yearned over it, but the 
Netherton day is what tipped the balance.  I'm even skipping Marcon 
to free up the vacation days!

Mary Piero Carey

"we don't have issues, we have subscriptions"


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Status: RO

He has arrived. Ansel's first blog posting from
England can be read here. 

http://www.livejournal.com/users/me_actor_ug/ 

I apologize in advance for his pitiful attention to
spelling and grammer.

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA

The only twelve steps I'm interested in are the ones between the flat folds and the brocades.  --Anonymous Costumer--
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Joan Jurancich <joanmj@surewest.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons
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Status: RO

At 05:36 AM 1/13/2007, you wrote:
>is it this?  "the chocolate girl" by liotard, circa 1743:
>http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html
>
>i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the
>renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i
>don't work there or anything.  and i think it would be funny if
>someone recognized it).
>

I notice that her apron strings seem to be long enough to cross in 
the back and come to the front to be tied.  It's nice to see that the 
way I like to tie my apron at Sutter's Fort (c. 1846) has long 
historical roots.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 

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Status: RO

Sheridan wrote:

> Aha! A question I can answer! :0)
> 
> The coat is not based on anything, it's a Turkish Ottoman style caftan probably bought from a Turkish import shop. I used to find these at garage sales and at second hand clothing stores quite often. I used to have a stunning blue and silver one just like in your picture - except that I outgrew it. *sigh*
> 
> check here for some pictures (only a few are the coat style):
> 
> http://www.artemisimports.com/caftans/
> 
> Sheridan P.
> 

Thanks! I was getting to that conclusion myself last night, having ruled 
out Mongolian or Chinese styles. The sleeves and buttons kept saying 
"turkish" to me, but I hadn't yet found a good source. The hat looks 
like some Tatar drawings in my Tilke book.



Dawn



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Status: RO

I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has been playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and do what she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  Having tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take the blouse apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be easy to use the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the right.  My friend went crazy saying they never had the buttonholes on the right.  I am so sick of the whole thing that I don't want to do any more research.  Does anyone know if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on women's blouses during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be appropriate?  I am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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Status: RO

Mary,

We'll be very happy to see you at Costume-Con.  It's unfortunate, 
though, that you're skipping Marcon to get more vacation, as we are 
the Costuming guests this year at Marcon.  But we'd rather see you at 
Costume-Con!

Pierre (and Sandy)

At 08:17 PM 1/13/2007, you wrote:

>Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:13:32 -0500
>From: mdcarey@compuserve.com
>Subject: [h-cost] Costume Con 25
>
>I just dropped my reg in the mail.  Hey Pierre, count me as going
>because of Robin!  Not that I wouldn't have yearned over it, but the
>Netherton day is what tipped the balance.  I'm even skipping Marcon
>to free up the vacation days!
>
>Mary Piero Carey

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Lucky you! I think fezzes are right out. I'm just starting to look into =
this myself & would appreciate information, too. I've read that young =
women wore hats but older women would wear bonnets & don't know what =
constitutes the difference. Thanks for any light anyone can shed.
=20
Patty

________________________________

From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of Lalah
Sent: Sun 1/14/2007 11:53 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War



I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is =
driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has =
been playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and =
do what she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on =
the buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  =
Having tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take =
the blouse apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that =
it would be easy to use the left side for buttons and put the =
buttonholes on the right.  My friend went crazy saying they never had =
the buttonholes on the right.  I am so sick of the whole thing that I =
don't want to do any more research.  Does anyone know if the buttonholes =
HAD to be on the left on women's blouses during the Civil War period?  =
Also what kind of hat would be appropriate?  I am not going to make her =
a fez!  Thanks for the help

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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Status: RO


Lalah - victory may be yours
I happen to have a copy of Juanita Leisch's 'Who Wore What?' 1861-1865 -
(not my period at all but I helped her with a fashion show at Colonial
Williamsburg and it was a kind gift)

I looked in it for pictures of ladies WITH men and in several photographs I
see right-over-left buttoning for women while the men's wear is still
left-over-right.

Note that: there are an equal number of photographs with the women's wear
buttoning left over-right as well, so this could be a transition time

Hope this helps
Sarah Paterson


-----Original Message-----
 
I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is
driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has been
playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and do what
she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the
buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  Having
tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take the blouse
apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be
easy to use the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the right.
My friend went crazy saying they never had the buttonholes on the right.  I
am so sick of the whole thing that I don't want to do any more research.
Does anyone know if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on women's blouses
during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be appropriate?  I
am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender



_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: " Lalah" <lalahcatlady@netscape.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War
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Status: RO

THANK YOU!  I was sure I had read that somewhere, but couldn't come up with a reference to suit my friend.  If the local group has to have their button holes on the left, fine, but it isn't necessary for authenticity.  And I simply don't have time to hand sew miles of loopy braid on the skirt and remake the blouse.  Don't you love people who come up with complicated designs two weeks before an event? And that's two gowns, not just one.  Thanks for the help.
Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender

--- sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca wrote:

From: S Paterson <sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Cc:
Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:25:27 -0400


Lalah - victory may be yours
I happen to have a copy of Juanita Leisch's 'Who Wore What?' 1861-1865 -
(not my period at all but I helped her with a fashion show at Colonial
Williamsburg and it was a kind gift)

I looked in it for pictures of ladies WITH men and in several photographs I
see right-over-left buttoning for women while the men's wear is still
left-over-right.

Note that: there are an equal number of photographs with the women's wear
buttoning left over-right as well, so this could be a transition time

Hope this helps
Sarah Paterson


-----Original Message-----
 
I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is
driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has been
playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and do what
she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the
buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  Having
tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take the blouse
apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be
easy to use the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the right.
My friend went crazy saying they never had the buttonholes on the right.  I
am so sick of the whole thing that I don't want to do any more research.
Does anyone know if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on women's blouses
during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be appropriate?  I
am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender



_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume




_____________________________________________________________
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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From: S Paterson <sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca>
Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

I can scan pics and send if she needs visual proof - but if she is "all
that" which she says she is - she likely has a copy of this book as it is a
great visual survey of that time, regardless if you agree with the author on
construction or not.

Sarah

-----Original Message-----
 THANK YOU!  I was sure I had read that somewhere, but couldn't come up with
a reference to suit my friend.  If the local group has to have their button
holes on the left, fine, but it isn't necessary for authenticity.  And I
simply don't have time to hand sew miles of loopy braid on the skirt and
remake the blouse.  Don't you love people who come up with complicated
designs two weeks before an event? And that's two gowns, not just one.
Thanks for the help.
Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender



_______________________________________________
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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:04:02 -0500
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Status: RO

On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Lalah wrote:

> Don't you love people who come up with complicated designs two  
> weeks before an event? And that's two gowns, not just one.  Thanks  
> for the help.

Oh well, you know, they needed all your lead time to come up with a  
suitably frustrating complicated design!
;-)
Lauren
Lauren Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net
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Status: RO

 
answer is it depends - for middle and upper classes the modern rules apply  
(ie different for men and women).
 
for lower classes it's possible that they may have carried on the older  
tradition of switching sides to increase the life of the garment - generally  
though I'd stick to the rule if it were me.  
 
that said, depending on the role of the person you're making it for, and  the 
style, but it wasn't unheard of for women to wear men's clothing, too.
 
I never rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a picture  
to get reversed when printed, and modern photo editiors don't necessarily  
realise the importance.  it was equally as possible for a photographer at  the 
time to have reversed the image by mistake (ie too many variables).
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 14/01/2007 19:01:47 GMT Standard Time,  
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

Lalah -  victory may be yours
I happen to have a copy of Juanita Leisch's 'Who Wore  What?' 1861-1865 -
(not my period at all but I helped her with a fashion  show at Colonial
Williamsburg and it was a kind gift)

I looked in it  for pictures of ladies WITH men and in several photographs I
see  right-over-left buttoning for women while the men's wear is  still
left-over-right.

Note that: there are an equal number of  photographs with the women's wear
buttoning left over-right as well, so  this could be a transition time

Hope this helps
Sarah  Paterson


 
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From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War
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Status: RO

A fez? Where's the logic in that?

My understanding is that this is a transitional time for headwear for women
as well as for where the buttonholes go. Older women tent to stick with the
styles they know from their youth (I bet your mom is wearing the hairdo she
wore in the 1960s, just like my mom), so they would most likely wear
bonnets. The younger women are seeing that hats are more fashionable than
bonnets - and more flattering - and that's what they're wearing. That's not
to say that a very fashionable older woman wouldn't wear a hat if it was
stylish and flattering, but most older women would have stuck with their
bonnets until they couldn't retrim them one more time and then maybe replace
it with a hat.

And very little girls wore bonnets until they got to about 8-10.
LynnD


On 1/14/07, Rickard, Patty <RICKARPA@muc.edu> wrote:
>
> Lucky you! I think fezzes are right out. I'm just starting to look into
> this myself & would appreciate information, too. I've read that young women
> wore hats but older women would wear bonnets & don't know what constitutes
> the difference. Thanks for any light anyone can shed.
>
> Patty
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of Lalah
> Sent: Sun 1/14/2007 11:53 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War
>
>
>
> I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is
> driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has been
> playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and do what
> she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the
> buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  Having
> tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take the blouse
> apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be
> easy to use the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the
> right.  My friend went crazy saying they never had the buttonholes on the
> right.  I am so sick of the whole thing that I don't want to do any more
> research.  Does anyone know if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on
> women's blouses during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be
> appropriate?  I am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help
>
> Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender
>
>
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From: "Lynn Downward" <lynndownward@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed
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Status: RO

I finally read the British Journam of Medicine this article was a report of.
Very interesting. However, there are replies to this article on the BMJ
website, discounting the science of this article. They claim that the chin
hairs and soft tissue used for DNA comparison to the liver might not be
Francesco's because when they exhumed him in Dec 2004 there was no soft
tissue there. I haven't read all the replies - there were five I think and I
don't have the time to read them all until Tuesday at the earliest - but we
can't take this new info as gospel.

LynnD
who works with scientists and knows to check the original article and
responses


On 1/2/07, Linda Rice <vmaa2@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Interesting new discoveries about the Medici's:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1979151,00.html
>
> ::Linda::
>
> (sorry, no relevant costume content, just kinda interesting story)
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] re: fabric for robe a la francaise
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Status: RO

Many thanks for all the feedback on appropriate fabric: I will hunt out some nice cotton for my own personal use but for the show (eek) will probably get something a bit more flash. I am indeed a slave to the shiny (taffeta) stuff!

I found this UK supplier and they have one or two options that I'd appreciate your views on, 
http://www.fabricland.co.uk/taffetas.htm
specifically - the midnight "serpent" taffeta, the embroidered cream taffeta (with pale blue flowers) or, perhaps, the faux silk taffeta gold - or is that embroidery too reekingly modern?  I'd like something that at least has a /feel/ of the period...

http://snipurl.com/17ho1 in silver perhaps?

http://snipurl.com/17hoa not very period in colour maybe but rather lush

anyway - thank you again and perhaps I should just get on with it rather than stress about a fabric that I've not even bought yet! ;-)

gratefully,
Katherine
 
"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will 
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright


		
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20070114195118.43328.qmail@web27206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: fabric for robe a la francaise
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:01:55 +0100
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Status: RO


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "katherine sanders" <katherinejsanders@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
I found this UK supplier and they have one or two options that I'd 
appreciate your views on,
http://www.fabricland.co.uk/taffetas.htm
specifically - the midnight "serpent" taffeta, the embroidered cream taffeta 
(with pale blue flowers) or, perhaps, the faux silk taffeta gold - or is 
that embroidery too reekingly modern?  I'd like something that at least has 
a /feel/ of the period...

http://snipurl.com/17ho1 in silver perhaps?

What is wrong with the red? Its lovely for a francaise dress!
Well at least my 2cents.

Bjarne

http://snipurl.com/17hoa not very period in colour maybe but rather lush

anyway - thank you again and perhaps I should just get on with it rather 
than stress about a fabric that I've not even bought yet! ;-)

gratefully,
Katherine

"A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will
annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright



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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:14:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war photos
From: aquazoo@patriot.net
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> I never rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a
> picture to get reversed when printed, and modern photo editiors
> don't necessarily realise the importance.  it was equally as possible
> for a photographer at the time to have reversed the image by
> mistake (ie too many variables).

     It's not a mistake.  Some 19th century photographic images are not
printed to paper; the final product is the photographic plate and it
is reversed.  This can be seen on some originals where the "US" on
the belt buckle is backwards.

     So a book publisher needs to decide, print these images as they are,
or "correct" them to be right reading?

     Sure, there are cases where anyone along the way can mess it up. 
Less so these days, when a page goes from computer file to printing
plate without as many hands in between.

     -Carol

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
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Status: RO


>Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 00:35:23 -0500
>From: "Caryn Sobel" <carynsobel@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:  CostumeCon
>
><There were several young-mid teens kids there last
>year; I hope to see them again--they're great!>
>
>Thanks, Ann. That's good news!
>
>My daughter's only "true" historical costume so far for CostumeCon is still
>in the research phase--she saw the movie "Hero" and is trying to find what
>era the costume might be from (not much from the Qin era so far), if it is
>based on a real style. I thought that a wrap-type dress might be quicker to
>do when she already has her hands full with the earlier ones, and will give
>me something to do a little embroidery with. We'll see how that goes...
>
>Caryn

Caryn,

A few words of advice for your daughter. If she is intending to 
recreate the movie costume it wouldn't be eligible for the Historic 
Masquerade. The cut off date for historic costumes is: "costume based 
on clothing that was worn or could have been worn through December 
31, 1982." (from the formal rules). It would, however, be completely 
appropriate for the F/SF masquerade on Saturday night.

If, on the other hand, she is using the film for inspiration and 
wants to create a historically accurate costume from the Qin Dynasty 
(say what the character would have really worn in the Qin Dynasty) 
that would be completely appropriate for the Historic masquerade.

If you have any questions let me know. You might also contact the 
Historic Masquerade director, Byron Connell, and ask him. He might 
over rule me. (I may be co-chair, but these decisions are ultimately 
the purview of the respective directors and their word is law on 
these matters.).

He can be contacted at: bpconnell@verizon.net

Hope this helps. We look forward to seeing your daughter on stage.

Pierre

P.S., if she's planning this for a Hall Costume, you can disregard 
all of the above.

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:21:06 -0500
From: "Ron Carnegie" <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war photos
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

As a wetplate photagrapher I can confirm this.  Any tintype or ambrotype 
will be reversed.  A albumen print made from a glass should not be.

Ron Carnegie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <aquazoo@patriot.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war photos


>> I never rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a
>> picture to get reversed when printed, and modern photo editiors
>> don't necessarily realise the importance.  it was equally as possible
>> for a photographer at the time to have reversed the image by
>> mistake (ie too many variables).
>
>     It's not a mistake.  Some 19th century photographic images are not
> printed to paper; the final product is the photographic plate and it
> is reversed.  This can be seen on some originals where the "US" on
> the belt buckle is backwards.
>
>     So a book publisher needs to decide, print these images as they are,
> or "correct" them to be right reading?
>
>     Sure, there are cases where anyone along the way can mess it up.
> Less so these days, when a page goes from computer file to printing
> plate without as many hands in between.
>
>     -Carol
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:23:29 -0500
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed
In-reply-to: <8296995c0701141147l6ceeac90q125b128cce606718@mail.gmail.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I read that a couple of weeks ago. It is a fascinating discovery-- one way
or tjhe other. But Ferdinando has been a suspect since Francesco and Bianca
died, so in a way we are back to square one!

Monica
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Lynn Downward
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:47 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medici mystery revealed


I finally read the British Journam of Medicine this article was a report of.
Very interesting. However, there are replies to this article on the BMJ
website, discounting the science of this article. They claim that the chin
hairs and soft tissue used for DNA comparison to the liver might not be
Francesco's because when they exhumed him in Dec 2004 there was no soft
tissue there. I haven't read all the replies - there were five I think and I
don't have the time to read them all until Tuesday at the earliest - but we
can't take this new info as gospel.

LynnD
who works with scientists and knows to check the original article and
responses


On 1/2/07, Linda Rice <vmaa2@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Interesting new discoveries about the Medici's:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1979151,00.html
>
> ::Linda::
>
> (sorry, no relevant costume content, just kinda interesting story)
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: S Paterson <sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca>
Subject: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Well, that is why I reviewed the pictures ONLY with men in them as well, and
with their buttoning left-over-right since pictures can easily be reversed.
(Like I stated in my original email). I have cutting books they tell me how
things were tailored for the 19th century so know that men's wear was cut
with a left-over-right closure.

I have been trained to look for those pesky details, you know, and I do not
give advice without due care and attention to detail to the best of my
ability.

Sarah Paterson

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Debloughcostumes@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:12 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Re: american civil war

I never rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a picture

to get reversed when printed, and modern photo editiors don't necessarily  
realise the importance.  it was equally as possible for a photographer at
the 
time to have reversed the image by mistake (ie too many variables).
 
 

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In a message dated 1/14/2007 12:28:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca writes:

Note  that: there are an equal number of photographs with the women's  wear
buttoning left over-right as well, so this could be a transition  time




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In a message dated 1/14/2007 12:28:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca writes:

Note  that: there are an equal number of photographs with the women's  wear
buttoning left over-right as well, so this could be a transition  time



It was indeed a transition time.  You see both men's and women's  clothes 
buttoning both ways, in real clothes as well as photographs.  (One  of the 
hazards of relying on photographs alone is that the image could be  reversed.)  One 
theory is that the gender closings were only standardized  as ready-to-wear 
became widespread, and that was later in the 19th  century.
 
Ann Wass
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] American Civil War/fastening left or right
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Status: RO

At 23:11 14/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 1/14/2007 12:28:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>sjpaterson@tru.eastlink.ca writes:
>
>Note  that: there are an equal number of photographs with the women's  wear
>buttoning left over-right as well, so this could be a transition  time
>
>
>
>It was indeed a transition time.  You see both men's and women's  clothes
>buttoning both ways, in real clothes as well as photographs.  (One  of the
>hazards of relying on photographs alone is that the image could 
>be  reversed.)  One
>theory is that the gender closings were only standardized  as ready-to-wear
>became widespread, and that was later in the 19th  century.
>
I heard a theory that the side clothes fastened on was standardised 
when cutting with a band saw became popular, along with tailored 
clothes for women. A band saw could cut many thicknesses of fabric, 
and often a manufactory would be cutting and making up men's'and 
women's clothing side by side, unlike a tailor's workshop. Here each 
section would be made up by a specialist - buttonholer/sleeve 
maker/pocket setter etc., so confusion was less likely to occur.

Suzi


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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:49:57 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
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Status: RO

 
In a message dated 1/14/2007 2:15:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
Debloughcostumes@aol.com writes:

never  rely on photos for this kind of thing as it's so easy for a picture   
to get reversed when printed,


BINGO!
 
 
I don't think I've ever seen any real garment button left over right  for 
women in the 1860's. Is it a blouse? Can you just create a new placket for  the 
button holes and not have to re-cut the whole left side? Or cover them with  a 
decorated [embroidered?] placket so the buttons or holes don't even  show.
 
A fez? What is she? A Zouave?
 
I'd use a bonnet unless she's gonna be out in the sun, and then a wide  
brimmed low crowned hat [usually sitting straight and level  and parallel to the 
ground]. Also a sorta pill box shaped hat.... but that  implies traveling to me. 
A spoon bonnet was all the rage in the  1860's.
 
Here's a page with some illustrations.
 
 
_http://www.victorianmillinery.com/Catalog.cfm_ 
(http://www.victorianmillinery.com/Catalog.cfm) 
 
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] American Civil War
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Status: RO

maybe put some trim down the front over the holes.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Rickard, Patty 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:23 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] American Civil War


Lucky you! I think fezzes are right out. I'm just starting to look into this
myself & would appreciate information, too. I've read that young women wore
hats but older women would wear bonnets & don't know what constitutes the
difference. Thanks for any light anyone can shed.
 
Patty

________________________________

From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of Lalah
Sent: Sun 1/14/2007 11:53 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] American Civil War



I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and his mother is
driving me crazy.  She has some really weird ideas and since she has been
playing with this group for a number of years, I just shut up and do what
she wants.  However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the
buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows badly.  Having
tried everything I can think of to remove it, I am ready to take the blouse
apart and make a new left front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be
easy to use the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the right.
My friend went crazy saying they never had the buttonholes on the right.  I
am so sick of the whole thing that I don't want to do any more research.
Does anyone know if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on women's blouses
during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be appropriate?  I
am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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Subject: [h-cost] Shops in York, England
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Status: RO

A while back we were discussing our favorite fabric
shops and somebody mentioned they shop in York. My son
is there now for six months of study at The University
of York and I would like him to check it out.

I don't expect he will be able to buy me anything,
being on a very, very tight budget, but I would at
least like him to take a look.

If anybody has any suggestions for places he can go
while he is there, it would be greatly appreciated.
I've instructed him to buy any postcards that have
clothing or portraits on them, but we will see if he remembers.

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA

The only twelve steps I'm interested in are the ones between the flat folds and the brocades.  --Anonymous Costumer--
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
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Status: RO

Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> Where and when is Costume Con?
>   

Costume-Con 25
St. Louis, MO
March 30-April 2, 2007
<http://www.cc25.net/start.htm>

Costume-Con 26
San Jose, CA
April 25-28, 2008
<http://www.cc26.info/>

Costume-Con 27
Baltimore, MD
May, 2009
<http://www.costume-con.com/cc27bid/cc27flyer.pdf>


Costume-Con 28
To be determined by vote at CC25 in St. Louis
Spring, 2010
Current bids: Milwaukee, WI <http://www.spybid.org/>

This enough to get you started?

andy

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
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Status: RO

Where and when is Costume Con?

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Pierre & Sandy Pettinger
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:38 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con



>Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 00:35:23 -0500
>From: "Caryn Sobel" <carynsobel@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:  CostumeCon
>
><There were several young-mid teens kids there last
>year; I hope to see them again--they're great!>
>
>Thanks, Ann. That's good news!
>
>My daughter's only "true" historical costume so far for CostumeCon is still
>in the research phase--she saw the movie "Hero" and is trying to find what
>era the costume might be from (not much from the Qin era so far), if it is
>based on a real style. I thought that a wrap-type dress might be quicker to
>do when she already has her hands full with the earlier ones, and will give
>me something to do a little embroidery with. We'll see how that goes...
>
>Caryn

Caryn,

A few words of advice for your daughter. If she is intending to 
recreate the movie costume it wouldn't be eligible for the Historic 
Masquerade. The cut off date for historic costumes is: "costume based 
on clothing that was worn or could have been worn through December 
31, 1982." (from the formal rules). It would, however, be completely 
appropriate for the F/SF masquerade on Saturday night.

If, on the other hand, she is using the film for inspiration and 
wants to create a historically accurate costume from the Qin Dynasty 
(say what the character would have really worn in the Qin Dynasty) 
that would be completely appropriate for the Historic masquerade.

If you have any questions let me know. You might also contact the 
Historic Masquerade director, Byron Connell, and ask him. He might 
over rule me. (I may be co-chair, but these decisions are ultimately 
the purview of the respective directors and their word is law on 
these matters.).

He can be contacted at: bpconnell@verizon.net

Hope this helps. We look forward to seeing your daughter on stage.

Pierre

P.S., if she's planning this for a Hall Costume, you can disregard 
all of the above.

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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In a message dated 1/14/2007 10:52:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
AlbertCat@aol.com writes:

don't  think I've ever seen any real garment button left over right  for  
women in the 1860's. 


I have tried in vain to find the published research.  But Judith Lopez  did a 
presentation at the International Textiles and Apparel Association  sometime 
in the early 1990s, and I think it was later published.  She  looked at 
clothing in museums, not just photographs, and definitely found  overlapping both 
ways.  I thought she had looked at men's clothing, too,  but I am not as sure 
about that.
 
Ann Wass
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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:46:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: N Kipar <marquesate@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shops in York, England
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Hi Rebecca,

I can't recommend any particular fabric shop, but the one shop I always, always go to, whenever I am in York is Duttons for Buttons. A wonderful haberdashery shop, with endless buttons and most exquisite ones, as well as wonderful trims.

Duttons For Buttons

32 Coppergate

York YO1 9NR

Nicole


----- Original Message ----
From: REBECCA BURCH <ctrvlyfarm@sbcglobal.net>
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Sent: Monday, 15 January, 2007 6:04:40 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Shops in York, England


A while back we were discussing our favorite fabric
shops and somebody mentioned they shop in York. My son
is there now for six months of study at The University
of York and I would like him to check it out.

I don't expect he will be able to buy me anything,
being on a very, very tight budget, but I would at
least like him to take a look.

If anybody has any suggestions for places he can go
while he is there, it would be greatly appreciated.
I've instructed him to buy any postcards that have
clothing or portraits on them, but we will see if he remembers.

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA

The only twelve steps I'm interested in are the ones between the flat folds and the brocades.  --Anonymous Costumer--
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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:17:36 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shops in York, England
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Status: RO

At 06:04 15/01/2007, you wrote:
>A while back we were discussing our favorite fabric
>shops and somebody mentioned they shop in York. My son
>is there now for six months of study at The University
>of York and I would like him to check it out.

No fabric shops that I remember. Lots of interesting antique shops, a 
great shop totally dedicated to everything cat (post it notes, tote 
bags etc), great food markets and weekend markets of things like 
Peruvian knitwear, home made jams, etc. But nothing costume 
orientated that I remember - sorry.


>I don't expect he will be able to buy me anything,
>being on a very, very tight budget, but I would at
>least like him to take a look.
>
>If anybody has any suggestions for places he can go
>while he is there, it would be greatly appreciated.
>I've instructed him to buy any postcards that have
>clothing or portraits on them, but we will see if he remembers.

York has lots of interesting historical buildings, a museum, a 
railway museum, and there is plenty to see in the local area. I have 
a vague memory that they have a dress belonging to Queen Victoria in 
the museum, and if it is there, you can buy a postcard. I have not 
been to any local museums or art galleries as I usually go for a 
weekend with the Richard lll Society, and  dine in medieval clothing 
in Barley Hall.

Suzi 

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From: "cschmitt@genteelarts.com" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
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Status: RO

We've had several dozen original women's garments that closed left-over-right on 
display at the Conference over the years. Either way is correct; the notes I have 
in my research indicate left-over-right was slightly more common. 55%-45% or 
possibly 60%-40%; I don't have my notes at this location. 

Bonnets are generally worn by mature women for most social occasions: church, 
visiting, shopping, etc. Hats are generally reserved for outdoor recreational 
activities: walking, boating, playing croquet or similar games, at a watering place 
or the seaside. Other hat styles, pork pie, Glengarry, etc., are usually favored by 
younger women or an older but very fashionable woman. I define "mature" as someone 
mid-20s or older; or a married woman of any age. As always, there are exceptions 
based on any number of circumstances. 

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007



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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
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Status: RO

Its quite interresting with this toppic with the closing front either left 
or right.
When i was thinking how they did in 18th century, in the end where masculine 
fashions were hip, i had no idea?
Do any of you know?

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war


> We've had several dozen original women's garments that closed 
> left-over-right on
> display at the Conference over the years. Either way is correct; the notes 
> I have
> in my research indicate left-over-right was slightly more common. 55%-45% 
> or
> possibly 60%-40%; I don't have my notes at this location.
>
> Bonnets are generally worn by mature women for most social occasions: 
> church,
> visiting, shopping, etc. Hats are generally reserved for outdoor 
> recreational
> activities: walking, boating, playing croquet or similar games, at a 
> watering place
> or the seaside. Other hat styles, pork pie, Glengarry, etc., are usually 
> favored by
> younger women or an older but very fashionable woman. I define "mature" as 
> someone
> mid-20s or older; or a married woman of any age. As always, there are 
> exceptions
> based on any number of circumstances.
>
> Carolann Schmitt
> cschmitt@genteelarts.com
> www.genteelarts.com
> Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Status: RO

Mary wrote:

<<I just dropped my reg in the mail.  Hey Pierre, count me as going 
because of Robin!  Not that I wouldn't have yearned over it, but the 
Netherton day is what tipped the balance.>>

I'll look forward to seeing you there!

And in case anyone has been trying to reach me: I am offline and out of commission, thanks to power outages here in St. Louis. We have been without power in our home since Saturday; my husband, kids, and I have been staying with relatives. I am just now able to check into the list on a borrowed computer, via an alternate box, but I don't have access to my usual e-mail. I am not looking forward to the quantity of mail I will have to sort through once we do get back home ... not to mention the laundry, and the state of the refrigerator and freezer.

At least I can now read the list, and I am reachable at this box for now.

--Robin
Robin Netherton
This is my webmail box. Please reply to <robin@nightowl.net>.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
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In a message dated 1/15/2007 5:21:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
AnnBWass@aol.com writes:

She  looked at 
clothing in museums, not just photographs, and  definitely found  overlapping 
both  
ways. 


*******************
 
I doubt it not. I've not researched it at all, actually. But I had a friend  
who used to collect vintage, and I can't recall a dress that overlapped left  
over right. But that's no definitive observation.
 
I wonder how WHAT the garment is affects this. I mean, is one more likely  to 
find jackets that overlap left to right than say a dress or blouse? Jackets  
were sorta coming into their own in the 1860's after a few decades of 
domination  by the dress with skirt attached.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
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Status: RO

Pierre,

Thanks for that helpful info on the different events! My daughter has been 
researching, and getting some great help on the F-Costume list, too.

She has decided that the Hero outfit will be a Hall Costume. I want the Hero 
outfit to be "Hero-inspired," but when I interrupted her at college 
application essays to suggest that, she screamed. Oops. Perhaps after some 
chocolate she will be open to suggestions. I have become very interested in 
the period and culture, and am doing some research, but don't want to make 
this stressful on her.

Other than the Fashion Show, I guess we will be non-historic this time (so 
now I am OT, sorry all).

Thanks again--government agencies could definitely take lessons from you 
CostumeCon folk on helpfulness, friendliness, and efficiency.

Best,

Caryn 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: american civil war
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>I wonder how WHAT the garment is affects this. I mean, is one more likely  to 
>find jackets that overlap left to right than say a dress or blouse? Jackets  
>were sorta coming into their own in the 1860's after a few decades of 
>domination  by the dress with skirt attached.

I haven't studied enough jackets or other outer garments to make a determination. 
Almost all of my references are dresses.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 1-4, 2007


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Status: RO

 
 

check out the viking loom - see the website at _www.vikingloom.co.uk_ 
(http://www.vikingloom.co.uk)  for the address - I  don't know the address, just how 
to get there, if that makes sense!  not a  fabric shop, but sells lots of 
other crafty & embroidery stuff that's  really handy.
 
and up the road (away from the minster, and round the corner is a fantastic  
little bead shop that I don't know the name of (sorry, again I just know how 
to  get there from the station).
 
there is a fabric shop up a kind of alley, but it mostly sells patchwork  and 
modern dress fabrics (yet again I don't have the address - also don't know  
how to find that one, as have only ever been there once, but perhaps if the  
place he's staying has a yellow pages or a phone book he could look it  up?)
 
also, I'd recommend the regimental museums in york ( 
_http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/amot-search/default.asp?Category=AMOT&Service=Museum-Display_ 
(http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/amot-search/default.asp?Category=AMOT&Service=Museum-Disp
lay)  )  - the dragoon guards has some interesting stuff on the scott 
antarctic campaign  (captain oates was a d.g.)
 
 
 
 


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Thread-Topic: [h-cost] American Civil War
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Status: RO

Actually, in my vintage collection (which includes 4 US Civ. War-ish period women's' bodices - could be a bit later, not 100% sure but they're late 60s at the worst) it's pretty evenly split whether it's left-on-top or right-on-top. So I think your idea is perfectly kosher. (I only noticed this when I was using one of the bodices as the basis for my sister's civ. War bodice and realized I'd put the buttons on the wrong side. Then I checked and realized that the vintage bodice put the buttons "on the wrong side" :-)
	-sunny

> I am making garb for a Civil War enactor's girl friend and 
> his mother is driving me crazy.  She has some really weird 
> ideas and since she has been playing with this group for a 
> number of years, I just shut up and do what she wants.  
> However, I made the mistake of putting Fray Check on the 
> buttonhole marks on a blouse and it spread out and it shows 
> badly.  Having tried everything I can think of to remove it, 
> I am ready to take the blouse apart and make a new left 
> front.  Then it occurred to me that it would be easy to use 
> the left side for buttons and put the buttonholes on the 
> right.  My friend went crazy saying they never had the 
> buttonholes on the right.  I am so sick of the whole thing 
> that I don't want to do any more research.  Does anyone know 
> if the buttonholes HAD to be on the left on women's blouses 
> during the Civil War period?  Also what kind of hat would be 
> appropriate?  I am not going to make her a fez!  Thanks for the help


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 03:52:09 -0800
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Status: RO

Oh, Yes, thanks. I live 30 miles from San Jose, so will definitely go in
2008!

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew Trembley
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:17 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con


Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> Where and when is Costume Con?
>   

Costume-Con 25
St. Louis, MO
March 30-April 2, 2007
<http://www.cc25.net/start.htm>

Costume-Con 26
San Jose, CA
April 25-28, 2008
<http://www.cc26.info/>

Costume-Con 27
Baltimore, MD
May, 2009
<http://www.costume-con.com/cc27bid/cc27flyer.pdf>


Costume-Con 28
To be determined by vote at CC25 in St. Louis
Spring, 2010
Current bids: Milwaukee, WI <http://www.spybid.org/>

This enough to get you started?

andy

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Status: RO

Hello All,

I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan 
and Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 
2 (1973) pp. 109-124.

Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a 
bit of research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing 
the research so can't ILL it.

Thanks in advance
Genie

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
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Status: RO

Quoting Genie Barrett <ladymaggie@justinanimator.com>:

> Hello All,
>
> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and
> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2
> (1973) pp. 109-124.
>
> Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a bit
> of research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing the
> research so can't ILL it.
>

Don't have the journal, but my University generally gets stuff to me  
in about a week.  I know that different libraries are different --  
want me to try and get it for you?

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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Status: RO

At 09:39 AM 1/16/2007, you wrote:

>Don't have the journal, but my University generally gets stuff to me
>in about a week.  I know that different libraries are different --
>want me to try and get it for you?
>
>susan


Wait, I may have access to it elsewhere.  I'll let you know if I still need it.

Thanks,
Maggie 

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Help finding an article?
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Status: RO

Quoting Genie Barrett <ladymaggie@justinanimator.com>:

> Hello All,
>
> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan
and
> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2
> (1973) pp. 109-124.
>
> Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a
bit
> of research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing the
> research so can't ILL it.
>

Don't have the journal, but my University generally gets stuff to me  
in about a week.  I know that different libraries are different --  
want me to try and get it for you?

susan
-----

Wait, I may have access to it elsewhere.  I'll let you know if I still
need it.

Thanks,
Maggie 
------------------------------

Great minds are running down the same track!  This has been one of the
few things my local ILL has failed to find for me so if anyone does have
it, I would really appreciate a copy.

Thanks!
Catherine
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Status: RO


> Hello All,
>
> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and 
> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2 (1973) 
> pp. 109-124.
>
> Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a bit of 
> research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing the research 
> so can't ILL it.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Genie

I had trouble getting this through ILL last year, I finally gave up, so if 
you find a copy, let me know, please.

Melusine 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:46:37 -0800
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Status: RO

On Jan 16, 2007, at 3:52 AM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> Oh, Yes, thanks. I live 30 miles from San Jose, so will definitely  
> go in
> 2008!

Well, registration is online at <http://www.cc26.info> and full  
weekend adult membership is at $75 right now. The price will be going  
up after CC25 (I think at the end of April, actually).

Are you involved with any of the Bay Area costume groups? Do you  
attend any of the historical costume events or conventions in the  
area? Just curious...

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/  -  mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
"Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
   -- Donna Barr

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Hi all,

I just got an email from Michael Shamansky announcing:

Title: Medieval Dress and Fashion
Author: SCOTT, MARGARET
Price: $60.00
ISBN: 9780712306751
Description: London: British Library, 2007.  27cm., hardcover, ca. 192pp.
illus.,most in color.  ^Available April 2007^.

Has anyone heard early buzz on this book?  It's been a while since I've
seen anything from Margaret Scott, so I'm curious.

Colleen

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:27:49 -0600
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carmen Beaudry" <moreplentyn@earthlink.net>
>> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and 
>> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2 
>> (1973) pp. 109-124.

I'd be very interested in that, too!

-E House

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Status: RO

I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still 
need it?

Melanie Schuessler


Genie Barrett wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and 
> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2 
> (1973) pp. 109-124.
> 
> Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a bit 
> of research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing the 
> research so can't ILL it.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Genie
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Melanie Schuessler" <melanie@faucet.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?


>I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still need 
>it?
>
> Melanie Schuessler
>
>
> Genie Barrett wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and 
>> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2 
>> (snip)

I don't know if she still needs it, but I'd like it.

Melusine
(moreplentyn@earthlink.net)

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Quoting Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>:

> I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still
> need it?

PDF or paper?

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Help finding an article?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:32:43 -0700
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Status: RO

I've got a photocopy in my stash somewhere....
--Sue, blissfully lucky to know some *very* good librarians....;o)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catherine Kinsey" <Ckinsey@kumc.edu>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Help finding an article?


> Quoting Genie Barrett <ladymaggie@justinanimator.com>:
> 
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan
> and
> > Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2
> > (1973) pp. 109-124.
> >
> > Is there anyone out there that might have a copy?  I need it for a
> bit
> > of research I'm doing and, like usual, I am rather late in doing the
> > research so can't ILL it.
> >
> 
> Don't have the journal, but my University generally gets stuff to me  
> in about a week.  I know that different libraries are different --  
> want me to try and get it for you?
> 
> susan
> -----
> 
> Wait, I may have access to it elsewhere.  I'll let you know if I still
> need it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Maggie 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Great minds are running down the same track!  This has been one of the
> few things my local ILL has failed to find for me so if anyone does have
> it, I would really appreciate a copy.
> 
> Thanks!


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Margaret Scott book?
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Colleen McDonald wrote:

> I just got an email from Michael Shamansky announcing:
> 
> Title: Medieval Dress and Fashion
> Author: SCOTT, MARGARET

> Has anyone heard early buzz on this book?  It's been a while since I've
> seen anything from Margaret Scott, so I'm curious.

The last thing I saw by her was an art history paper a few years ago.  
Haven't heard her name at all otherwise. I'll be looking forward to seeing
what's in this.

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
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Status: RO

I would, too please  - I  thought I had it but I cannot find it.

Sarah Paterson ( I used to have a photocopy that did not survive 5 moves)
----- Original Message ----- 

>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still 
> >>need
>>it?
>>
>> Melanie Schuessler
>>
>>
>> Genie Barrett wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am trying to find a copy of Janet Arnold's copy of: "Elizagethan and 
>>> Jacobean Smocks and Shirts" that is in Waffen-und Kostumkunde Pt. 2 
>>> (snip)
>
> I don't know if she still needs it, but I'd like it.
>
> Melusine
> (moreplentyn@earthlink.net)
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:20:03 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Genie Barrett <ladymaggie@justinanimator.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
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Status: RO

At 07:57 PM 1/16/2007, you wrote:
>Quoting Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>:
>
>>I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still
>>need it?
>
>PDF or paper?

Can you post a PDF for download?  That might be fastest, though I 
know this is a really long article.

Genie

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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:22:20 -0500
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Margaret Scott book?
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Status: RO

You can pre-order at Barnes and Noble with tax (NY State) it comes to $44.
Free shipping too, since it is over $25.

Monica

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Robin Netherton
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:32 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Margaret Scott book?



On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Colleen McDonald wrote:

> I just got an email from Michael Shamansky announcing:
>
> Title: Medieval Dress and Fashion
> Author: SCOTT, MARGARET

> Has anyone heard early buzz on this book?  It's been a while since I've
> seen anything from Margaret Scott, so I'm curious.

The last thing I saw by her was an art history paper a few years ago.
Haven't heard her name at all otherwise. I'll be looking forward to seeing
what's in this.

--Robin


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
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Susan B. Farmer wrote:
> Quoting Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>:
> 
>> I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still
>> need it?
> 
> 
> PDF or paper?

Paper.

Melanie

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Genie Barrett wrote:
> 
> Can you post a PDF for download?  That might be fastest, though I know 
> this is a really long article.

Perhaps it's foolish to quibble, but that's rather less legal than 
making photocopies and sending them out.

Giving out copies, I know who they're going to and could argue fair use 
for educational purposes.  Putting it online is simply publishing it 
without permission.

I know it's easier, but...

Melanie

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Those who want photocopies mailed to them (for educational purposes :) 
), please send your name and address to me privately at melanie@faucet.net.

Melanie

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From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding an article?
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Quoting Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>:

> Susan B. Farmer wrote:
>> Quoting Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>:
>>
>>> I have it.  It's not a very good copy, but I do have it.  Do you still
>>> need it?
>>
>>
>> PDF or paper?
>
> Paper.
>

If ILL turns up a PDF that will make life simpler for everybody!  I  
don't want you to have to make another paper copy!

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Genie Barrett wrote:
> Can you post a PDF for download?  That might be fastest, though I
> know this is a really long article.

Oh, please do if you can! I've been looking for this as well. :)

Ingrid

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Shops in York, England
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 My husband and I went to York on our honeymoon two years ago, and we enjoyed the Castle Museum, which included exhibits about mourning in Victorian England and a clothing exhibit. Those exhibits might not be there anymore, but in the gift shop they had a booklet about two Victorian gowns in their collection. They also had a display of booklets that appeared to be local productions about things like the history of candlemaking or stuff like that. 



I loved York. We spent two days there and we didn't see half of what there was to see. It was much more enjoyable than London for us.



Tea Rose



Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 22:04:40 -0800 (PST)
From: REBECCA BURCH <ctrvlyfarm@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [h-cost] Shops in York, England

If anybody has any suggestions for places he can go
while he is there, it would be greatly appreciated.
I've instructed him to buy any postcards that have
clothing or portraits on them, but we will see if he remembers.

Rebecca Burch



   
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I am *so* sorry.  I was in the process of fixing the "to" line and the  
damn thing went to the whole list.  You may smite me with limp noodles  
and everything else.  I was *so* hoping that the list stripped  
attachments.  *sigh*

*very* red-faced,
Susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:39:14 -0800
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Status: RO

I was a Tech theatre major, did some costuming, but really got interested
five years ago when I got involved in the Renaissance and Dickens Fairs. The
costume requirements are quite strict, so I got much more interested in
"authentic" costume vs. "theatrical" costume. When I heard about this list
last year, I joined. I'd never heard of the Costume Conventions before. One
of the women I recently met is a co-founder (I think) of the Bay Area
Costumers Guild, so I am learning more every day.
Sharon 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew T Trembley
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:47 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con


On Jan 16, 2007, at 3:52 AM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> Oh, Yes, thanks. I live 30 miles from San Jose, so will definitely  
> go in
> 2008!

Well, registration is online at <http://www.cc26.info> and full  
weekend adult membership is at $75 right now. The price will be going  
up after CC25 (I think at the end of April, actually).

Are you involved with any of the Bay Area costume groups? Do you  
attend any of the historical costume events or conventions in the  
area? Just curious...

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/  -  mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
"Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
   -- Donna Barr

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From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:10:07 -0500
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Subject: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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Status: RO

Hi all!

Friends of ours have invited us to join an encampment for a week-long event. 
They're a Japanese encampment, but were looking to include a couple of 
Portuguese "outsiders". They're looking for something like the so-called 
"nanban traders", around 1575-1600. Sooo... I've started looking for info.

My first question, of course, is: what would they wear? I can find tons of 
information on Spain for these years (and gorgeous outfits too), but nothing 
on Portugal. Well... yes and no. Royalty seems to be interchangeable between 
Spain and Portugal at the time -- or is this just a case of my having not 
done enough research yet and getting the wrong impression?

In any case, even if I can find portraits of royalty, this does not tell me 
what traders would be wearing. There is even less information about Macau 
(which would have been a logical base of operations for what I'm 
considering).

Basically, I'm asking for pointers. If anybody has experience about those 
subjects and can suggest websites, books, patterns, even efficient Google 
search word combinations, I'd be very greatful. At present, I'm not turning 
up much except for a nice Wikipedia article. Which doesn't help me build 
clothing for two people for a week-long event!

Thank you! 

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Status: RO

> My first question, of course, is: what would they wear? I can find tons 
> of information on Spain for these years (and gorgeous outfits too), but 
> nothing on Portugal. Well... yes and no. Royalty seems to be 
> interchangeable between Spain and Portugal at the time -- or is this 
> just a case of my having not done enough research yet and getting the 
> wrong impression?

I have a book of namban art, showing these folks thru Japanese eyes. 
How close to San Francisco do you live?
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Status: RO

> I have a book of namban art, showing these folks thru Japanese eyes. How 
> close to San Francisco do you live?

Thanks for the offer, but I'm at the other end of the continent :-)

Though you've already helped some, by writing "namban" instead of 
"nanban"... Now to do some more Googling... 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...


>> My first question, of course, is: what would they wear? I can find tons 
>> of information on Spain for these years (and gorgeous outfits too), but 
>> nothing on Portugal. Well... yes and no. Royalty seems to be 
>> interchangeable between Spain and Portugal at the time -- or is this 
>> just a case of my having not done enough research yet and getting the 
>> wrong impression?

Here's some artwork from Japan showing the traders.

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/encounters/orient/orient-Thumb.00003.html

Melusine
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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> Here's some artwork from Japan showing the traders.
>
> http://gallery.sjsu.edu/encounters/orient/orient-Thumb.00003.html
>
> Melusine

This is cool. I found a whole bunch of images on Wikipedia too. But did you 
notice there are no women? Not even one! Every time I think I've spotted 
one, I realize it's just a man in poofy pants. *grumble*... There must have 
been *some* kind of woman, at *some* point, who came on one of those ships! 
:-P

But thanks! 

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http://www.jessamynscloset.com/homepage.html

A bunch of images and info about Spanish and Portugese costume.
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Thought some would like to see this.
http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm

De

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <IDEHICPIJOEBPADHEOGPEEAJIGAA.otsisto@socket.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
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Status: RO

Oh gosh,
Thanks for posting :-)

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: [h-cost] man's coat


> Thought some would like to see this.
> http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm
> 
> De
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
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Status: RO

 
In a message dated 1/18/2007 5:28:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

Oh  gosh,
Thanks for posting :-)



Will you be making one like it, Bjarne?
 
Ann Wass
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <cf0.769d1c6.32e0afa7@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:30:36 +0100
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Status: RO

I am making one like it, off cause not the same pattern.
You know the yellow embroidered waistcoat i made? I am making it a matching 
jacket in shot green and yellow silk taffeta with the same pattern as the 
waistcoat. Its on my frame right now, have done 6 pattern repeats, and soon 
have to moove it for the lower part of the jacket.
But as always i never have time to make for myself, because people wants me 
to make their dresses. Have 2 dresses i must finnish before spring.
You can see my progress here:
  http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/2006suit.htm
I named it as my 2006 embroidery projekt, but look now it is 2007, and its 
still the same :-(
The jacket on the website is made with tambour tecknique, and i cant do it, 
have tryed but!
I do have silk wich would be very suitable for this jacket, but you know, i 
have promissed myself to finish all my UFO´s before starting new things.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <AnnBWass@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat


>
> In a message dated 1/18/2007 5:28:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:
>
> Oh  gosh,
> Thanks for posting :-)
>
>
>
> Will you be making one like it, Bjarne?
>
> Ann Wass
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Status: RO

Do you know how it is when you know the post wil come to you today with a 
packet of things you have longed for a long time?
I have it like that today. Awaiting a large packet with cotton laces from a 
scottish lace factory. I have ordered home for more than 700 pounds sterling 
and i cant get much made today.
And then the work you have to do is so tedious and uninterresting. Marking 
in the rows for crinoline steel in a hoop.
This time i want to try and make the hoop with padded panels along the top 
bones, in order to keep the tension of the side extensions nice and smooth 
for the skirts.
I have looked very close after a fashion print of Galleries des Modes where 
a millinery lady is delivering goods, amungst other things a hoop wich she 
carries under her arms. Also the small hoop from V&A has padding, so i guess 
its ok to do it.
When i get my laces, i think i am going to explode of excitement.

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] ot/cat on a hot tin roof
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:32:08 -0400
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Status: RO

I had that kind of day yesterday...a day of waiting for things to arrive so 
I could work.  Unfortunately, I was at work, so couldn't even work on home 
projects!

Keep plugging along with that hoop, it'll be beautiful when it's done.

Kelly



An insolent reply from a polite person is a bad sign.


Hippocrates (c.460-c.370 bc), Greek physician





>From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] ot/cat on a hot tin roof
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:01:47 +0100
>
>Do you know how it is when you know the post wil come to you today with a 
>packet of things you have longed for a long time?
>I have it like that today. Awaiting a large packet with cotton laces from a 
>scottish lace factory. I have ordered home for more than 700 pounds 
>sterling and i cant get much made today.
>And then the work you have to do is so tedious and uninterresting. Marking 
>in the rows for crinoline steel in a hoop.
>This time i want to try and make the hoop with padded panels along the top 
>bones, in order to keep the tension of the side extensions nice and smooth 
>for the skirts.
>I have looked very close after a fashion print of Galleries des Modes where 
>a millinery lady is delivering goods, amungst other things a hoop wich she 
>carries under her arms. Also the small hoop from V&A has padding, so i 
>guess its ok to do it.
>When i get my laces, i think i am going to explode of excitement.
>
>Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Leif og Bjarne Drews
>www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
>http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t waste time standing in line—try shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN 
Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca

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References: <009d01c73a8c$a1bd2af0$0202a8c0@p4audrey><45AF24D5.4060505@frys.com><00c401c73ad8$9517a450$0200a8c0@boris>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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Status: RO

There are a whole bunch of women if you go to the next few pages.
Very cool, thank you for sharing!

Sg


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...

> This is cool. I found a whole bunch of images on Wikipedia too. But did 
> you
> notice there are no women? Not even one! Every time I think I've spotted
> one, I realize it's just a man in poofy pants. *grumble*... There must 
> have
> been *some* kind of woman, at *some* point, who came on one of those 
> ships!
> :-P
>
> But thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
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Status: RO

That is very cool! It reminds me a *lot* of the stuff that Bjarne does!
--Sue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:44 AM
Subject: [h-cost] man's coat


> Thought some would like to see this.
> http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm
> 
> De


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Status: RO

For some reason I'm not getting the H-Costume Digests reliably. The problem 
began with h-costume Digest, Vol 6, Issue 28 and they have since been 
coming in random order or missing completely.

Could someone send h-costume Digest, Vol 6, Issue 34 to me?

Thanks.
Beth  

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: o/t cat on a hot tin roof
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Status: RO

Dear Bjarne
.
>This time i want to try and make the hoop with padded panels along the top 
>bones, in order to keep the tension of the side extensions nice and smooth 
>for the skirts.
>I have looked very close after a fashion print of Galleries des Modes where 
>a millinery lady is delivering goods, amungst other things a hoop wich she 
>carries under her arms. Also the small hoop from V&A has padding, so i guess 
>its ok to do it.

Is this on 18C panier? I am intrigued - I am going to make a toile of the french 'panier' shown in Waugh, where she shows two panels (which I presume are the same for front and back) then a sort of triangle which gets made into the waist ties... It's not very clear but she doesn't mention padding! It would make sense though, to keep the sides smooth as you say.

>When i get my laces, i think i am going to explode of excitement.

>From here in Scotland? Oo - do post a picture when they arrive, it sounds very exciting and today we have snow and rain, so it needs brightening up with something pretty!

p.s. I am going to buy the red brocade with silver motifs :-)


		
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: o/t cat on a hot tin roof
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Status: RO

At 15:09 18/01/2007, you wrote:
>Dear Bjarne . >This time i want to try and make the hoop with padded 
>panels along the top >bones, in order to keep the tension of the 
>side extensions nice and smooth >for the skirts. >I have looked very 
>close after a fashion print of Galleries des Modes where >a 
>millinery lady is delivering goods, amungst other things a hoop wich 
>she >carries under her arms. Also the small hoop from V&A has 
>padding, so i guess >its ok to do it. Is this on 18C panier? I am 
>intrigued - I am going to make a toile of the french 'panier' shown 
>in Waugh, where she shows two panels (which I presume are the same 
>for front and back) then a sort of triangle which gets made into the 
>waist ties... It's not very clear but she doesn't mention padding! 
>It would make sense though, to keep the sides smooth as you 
>say. >When i get my laces, i think i am going to explode of 
>excitement. >From here in Scotland? Oo - do post a picture when they 
>arrive, it sounds very exciting and today we have snow and rain, so 
>it needs brightening up with something pretty! p.s. I am going to 
>buy the red brocade with silver motifs

>Katherine


I have a made up pannier from the Waugh pattern if you want any help. 
E-mail me off list if I can.

Suzi

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Subject: [h-cost] 19th cen Knitting pattern help
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Status: RO


http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/cw/1864sontag.html

could someone comment on what yarn would be a good 
substitute for Zephyr in this pattern?   I'm wondering if 
we are talking something like fingering yarn?   Angora?
I'm aware this is probably not still available, but what 
would make a similar garment, not necessarily period 
correct, but just as pleasing.

thanks,  kitty
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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Status: RO

Hmm... but I need them to be 1600-ish... 
  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...


> There are a whole bunch of women if you go to the next few pages.
> Very cool, thank you for sharing!
> 
> Sg
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin@gmail.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
> 
>> This is cool. I found a whole bunch of images on Wikipedia too. But did 
>> you
>> notice there are no women? Not even one! Every time I think I've spotted
>> one, I realize it's just a man in poofy pants. *grumble*... There must 
>> have
>> been *some* kind of woman, at *some* point, who came on one of those 
>> ships!
>> :-P
>>
>> But thanks!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>> 
> _______________________________________________
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Status: RO

At 11:01 AM 1/18/2007, you wrote:
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:19:07 -0500
>From: "Kirsten Felton" <basyefelton@floodcity.net>
>Subject: [h-cost] 19th cen Knitting pattern help
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Message-ID: <web-576128@blade02.cluster1.echolabs.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
>
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/cw/1864sontag.html
>
>could someone comment on what yarn would be a good
>substitute for Zephyr in this pattern?   I'm wondering if
>we are talking something like fingering yarn?   Angora?
>I'm aware this is probably not still available, but what
>would make a similar garment, not necessarily period
>correct, but just as pleasing.
>
>thanks,  kitty

I don't know if this is the same yarn, but it might be a good substitute: 
http://www.theknitter.com/yarn-yagger-spun-zephyr-wool-silk.html

However, I do have a question about the pattern. It seems to start in the 
middle of the instructions. Row 1 starts with "3 dc". Where's the 
foundation chain? What do you do the 3 double crochet =in=? It says "repeat 
to the end of the row" but they never told you how to start the row in the 
first place. Very confusing.

Julie

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Subject: GBACG Open House (was Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume Con
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:17:20 -0800
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Status: RO

On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> I was a Tech theatre major, did some costuming, but really got  
> interested
> five years ago when I got involved in the Renaissance and Dickens  
> Fairs. The
> costume requirements are quite strict, so I got much more  
> interested in
> "authentic" costume vs. "theatrical" costume. When I heard about  
> this list
> last year, I joined. I'd never heard of the Costume Conventions  
> before. One
> of the women I recently met is a co-founder (I think) of the Bay Area
> Costumers Guild, so I am learning more every day.

So, on the off chance you didn't know, the Greater Bay Area Costumers  
Guild is having it's open house on January 28 in San Francisco:
<http://www.gbacg.org/Current/OpenHouse.htm>

andy

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/  -  mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
"Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
   -- Donna Barr

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Subject: RE: GBACG Open House (was Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume
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Status: RO

Oooooh, thanks!
S.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew T Trembley
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:17 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: GBACG Open House (was Re: [h-cost] Re: "Hero" costume at Costume
Con


On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
> I was a Tech theatre major, did some costuming, but really got  
> interested
> five years ago when I got involved in the Renaissance and Dickens  
> Fairs. The
> costume requirements are quite strict, so I got much more  
> interested in
> "authentic" costume vs. "theatrical" costume. When I heard about  
> this list
> last year, I joined. I'd never heard of the Costume Conventions  
> before. One
> of the women I recently met is a co-founder (I think) of the Bay Area
> Costumers Guild, so I am learning more every day.

So, on the off chance you didn't know, the Greater Bay Area Costumers  
Guild is having it's open house on January 28 in San Francisco:
<http://www.gbacg.org/Current/OpenHouse.htm>

andy

-- 
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/  -  mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
"Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
   -- Donna Barr

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Subject: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
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Status: RO

It looks like waist-height aprons were often a square of linen with  
the top corners tied behind the back. In these Manesse Codex aprons,  
the smiths' aprons look as if they could be tied like napkins around  
the neck.

The seed-sower here in October of The Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Barry
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/october.jpg is  
definitely wearing some kind of simple square or rectangle tied round  
the neck.

But this seed-sower seems to have a more constructed version:
http://classes.bnf.fr/idrisi/grand/1_04.htm
(Peasants in the field in Le Régime des princes)

A woman blacksmith and a man  in The Holkham Bible Picture Book  c.  
1327-1335, http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/medieval/year/ 
large2163.html, seem to have aprons where the napkin has been slashed  
somehow to provide shoulder straps and waist ties.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how these bib aprons might have been  
shaped or constructed?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote:

> And the Manesse Codex but men.
> 1340
> http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=124
>
> But not the waist tie ones.
> De
>

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But did
> you notice there are no women? Not even one! Every time I think I've 
> spotted one, I realize it's just a man in poofy pants. *grumble*... 
> There must have been *some* kind of woman, at *some* point, who came on 
> one of those ships! :-P

I think it was against Japanese law of the time for there to be namban 
women in Japan.
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> Though you've already helped some, by writing "namban" instead of 
> "nanban"... Now to do some more Googling...
> _____________________________________________

nam ban = southern barbarian

viet nam - southern provence
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I found the reference to Judith Lopez's work on buttonhole closures:
a short report, "Buttonholes: Some Differences in Gender-related Front  
Closures," In Dress, vol. 20, 1993.
 
Ann Wass
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I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list could give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be appropriate for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal for those interested in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are good for most eras, and the slightly open twill is good for most of the eras I'd want to make. I'm just not sure about the overall look of the fabric. Opinions?
 
http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
 
Karen
Seamstrix
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Status: RO

At 09:20 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:

>I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list 
>could give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be 
>appropriate for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal for 
>those interested in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are good 
>for most eras, and the slightly open twill is good for most of the 
>eras I'd want to make. I'm just not sure about the overall look of 
>the fabric. Opinions?
>
>http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
>
>Karen
>Seamstrix

I would not hesitate to use it for 19th century outerwear, but I 
would not be comfortable using it for, say, Elizabethan.

Joan Jurancich
joanmj@surewest.net 

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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:12:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking For Fabric Info
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

To me, the colors and overall look of the pattern is fine but looking
closely at the weave pattern, it looks very modern.

Diana



>
> I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list could
> give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be appropriate
> for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal for those interested
> in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are good for most eras, and the
> slightly open twill is good for most of the eras I'd want to make. I'm
> just not sure about the overall look of the fabric. Opinions?
>
> http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
>
> Karen
> Seamstrix
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

"Become the change you want to see in the world."
--Ghandi

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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:01:44 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
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Status: RO

These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist 
aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to 
provide ties.  You need an extremely large square to be able to just tie 
the corners around your waist.  But it does seem very wasteful if they 
are cut in one piece as they seem to be.

Jean

Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote
>It looks like waist-height aprons were often a square of linen with 
>the top corners tied behind the back. In these Manesse Codex aprons, 
>the smiths' aprons look as if they could be tied like napkins around 
>the neck.
>
>The seed-sower here in October of The Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Barry
>http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/october.jpg is  definitely 
>wearing some kind of simple square or rectangle tied round  the neck.
>
>But this seed-sower seems to have a more constructed version:
>http://classes.bnf.fr/idrisi/grand/1_04.htm
>(Peasants in the field in Le Régime des princes)
>
>A woman blacksmith and a man  in The Holkham Bible Picture Book  c. 
>1327-1335, http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/medieval/year/ 
>large2163.html, seem to have aprons where the napkin has been slashed 
>somehow to provide shoulder straps and waist ties.
>
>Does anyone have any thoughts on how these bib aprons might have been 
>shaped or constructed?
>
>Thanks for your thoughts.
>Lauren
>Lauren M. Walker
>lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
>
>On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote:
>
>> And the Manesse Codex but men.
>> 1340
>> http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=124
>>
>> But not the waist tie ones.
>> De
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Looking For Fabric Info
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Status: RO

I believe that twill can be found in the Nordic culture 1000s. All I can say
is the pattern looks feasable. They were creating intricate woven bands, I
do not see why they would not be able to create this pattern.
Maybe this will help some.
http://www.vikingagevessels.org/documents/C_%20Viking%20Womens%20Costume.pdf

De

-----Original Message-----
To me, the colors and overall look of the pattern is fine but looking
closely at the weave pattern, it looks very modern.

Diana



>
> I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list could
> give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be appropriate
> for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal for those interested
> in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are good for most eras, and the
> slightly open twill is good for most of the eras I'd want to make. I'm
> just not sure about the overall look of the fabric. Opinions?
>
> http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
>
> Karen
> Seamstrix


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
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Yes, that's among the problems for me -- if a standard loom width was  
in the 22 to 36-inch range, well, they are lucky they were skinnier  
than we are, and that fabric will skew when tugged at the corners.  
But the woman blacksmith's apron in particular seems to be sort of  
pulling and draping as if the shoulder straps were originally part of  
the horizontal somehow. Having just played with a nice 40-inch hemmed  
linen square I happen to have here, I find that while some of those  
drapes do happen with it, a lot of the look in the pictures is more  
bias-y somehow. The straight-cut square makes even more drapes and  
folds than I'm seeing in the apron pictures. So I wonder if these  
simple aprons were cut on the diagonal. But the way the bottom hems  
are straight makes me doubt this. I will be mucking about with linen  
over the next week or so for other reasons anyway (I have shifts and  
veils and caps and coifs to make!)  and will try some experiments in  
the apron direction while I am at it.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 19, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Jean Waddie wrote:

> These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular  
> waist aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a  
> similar way to provide ties.  You need an extremely large square to  
> be able to just tie the corners around your waist.  But it does  
> seem very wasteful if they are cut in one piece as they seem to be.
>
> Jean
>
> Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote
>> It looks like waist-height aprons were often a square of linen  
>> with the top corners tied behind the back. In these Manesse Codex  
>> aprons, the smiths' aprons look as if they could be tied like  
>> napkins around the neck.
>>
>> The seed-sower here in October of The Tres Riches Heures du Duc de  
>> Barry
>> http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/october.jpg is   
>> definitely wearing some kind of simple square or rectangle tied  
>> round  the neck.
>>
>> But this seed-sower seems to have a more constructed version:
>> http://classes.bnf.fr/idrisi/grand/1_04.htm
>> (Peasants in the field in Le Régime des princes)
>>
>> A woman blacksmith and a man  in The Holkham Bible Picture Book   
>> c. 1327-1335, http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/medieval/year/  
>> large2163.html, seem to have aprons where the napkin has been  
>> slashed somehow to provide shoulder straps and waist ties.
>>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on how these bib aprons might have  
>> been shaped or constructed?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>> Lauren
>> Lauren M. Walker
>> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote:
>>
>>> And the Manesse Codex but men.
>>> 1340
>>> http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php? 
>>> id=203&tfl=124
>>>
>>> But not the waist tie ones.
>>> De
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> -- 
> Jean Waddie
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Status: RO

penhalion@juno.com wrote:

> I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list could give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be appropriate for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal for those interested in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are good for most eras, and the slightly open twill is good for most of the eras I'd want to make. I'm just not sure about the overall look of the fabric. Opinions?
>  
> http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
>  

It's telling me it wants to be one of those little Chanel-inspired suits 
from about 1965.

http://muze.sabanciuniv.edu/english/sergiler/eser_detay.php?eser_id=46&sergi_id=3&k=0

http://honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/projects/petzko/progressive/chanel.jpg



Dawn


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Status: RO


On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote:

> These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist
> aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to
> provide ties.  You need an extremely large square to be able to just
> tie the corners around your waist.  But it does seem very wasteful if
> they are cut in one piece as they seem to be.

When I need an apron, I take a linen rectangle (which I normally use as a
napkin), tie a ribbon or cord around my waist with the bow in front, fold
over the short edge of the napkin by a handsbreadth, and tuck it into the
ribbon to hold it across my front. You wouldn't be able to tell from a
distance that the ribbon isn't attached. I have no authority for how I do
this and wouldn't present it as "authentic," but it works, uses known
technology, and looks like the pictures.

--Robin


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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking For Fabric Info
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Status: RO

I love checked and patterned wools, so I do not want to be  
discouraging! On p. 72 of _Woven Into The Earth_, Else Ostegard  
writes, "In Denmark check weaves can be traced from 2000-year-old  
ornamental weaves in light and dark check through a fine red and blue  
checked textile from the slightly later Lonne Heath find to Viking  
Era check weaves." So you can go WAY back with checks. But this  
fabric telegraphs 19th century to me, if you can find a Victorian  
coat or suit for it.

BECAUSE I love checked and patterned wools, I would also concur with  
De that you might use it for some of the Northern and Western  
European cultures around 1000 or somewhat earlier.

There are some three-shed twills with checks and stripes from the  
first half of the 14th century shown in _Textiles and Clothing_ , and  
also some references to 10th and 11th century examples -- the earlier  
ones apparently used different natural colors of wool to get the  
effect, which I think your palette of browns could emulate. After the  
14th century fashions changed, and I'd be hard pressed to place this  
cloth between then and the Victorians. But that's just my 2¢.
Lauren

Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 19, 2007, at 5:20 PM, penhalion@juno.com wrote:

>
> I was wondering if the amazingly knowledgable folks on this list  
> could give me some feedback on what eras a woolen fabric would be  
> appropriate for? I have a picture of it posted at my LiveJournal  
> for those interested in taking a look. It's wool, the colors are  
> good for most eras, and the slightly open twill is good for most of  
> the eras I'd want to make. I'm just not sure about the overall look  
> of the fabric. Opinions?
>
> http://seamstrix.livejournal.com/
>
> Karen
> Seamstrix
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Status: RO

Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote
>
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote:
>
>> These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist
>> aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to
>> provide ties.  You need an extremely large square to be able to just
>> tie the corners around your waist.  But it does seem very wasteful if
>> they are cut in one piece as they seem to be.
>
>When I need an apron, I take a linen rectangle (which I normally use as a
>napkin), tie a ribbon or cord around my waist with the bow in front, fold
>over the short edge of the napkin by a handsbreadth, and tuck it into the
>ribbon to hold it across my front. You wouldn't be able to tell from a
>distance that the ribbon isn't attached. I have no authority for how I do
>this and wouldn't present it as "authentic," but it works, uses known
>technology, and looks like the pictures.
>
>--Robin
>
I can see that for the narrow ones that hang flat.  But can you 
reproduce the look of the ones that pull and drape, like the Bakery and 
Buttermaking ones?  I find it particularly interesting that these don't 
seem to tie around the actual waist, but hang lower.
-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Chris <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_251.htm 
   
  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm 

Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
  Oh gosh,
Thanks for posting :-)

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: [h-cost] man's coat


> Thought some would like to see this.
> http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm
> 
> De
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote:

> I can see that for the narrow ones that hang flat.  But can you
> reproduce the look of the ones that pull and drape, like the Bakery
> and Buttermaking ones?  I find it particularly interesting that these
> don't seem to tie around the actual waist, but hang lower.

No -- I haven't made a thorough study of these. I found one that worked
for what I needed on the spot, and stuck with it. It would be interesting
to see what someone could come up with after a broader perusal of the
sources.

--Robin

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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:40:50 -0800
From: Cin <cinbarnes@gmail.com>
To: h-cost <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader...
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Status: RO

>Hmm... but I need them to be 1600-ish...

Look thru early ukiyo-e, Japanese colored woodblock prints.  The art
form was in full swing in 16th c Edo (Tokyo).  There is a magnificent
ukiyo-e Museum in Tokyo that I spent time at.  Wonderful exhibits that
changed every few weeks as their hang space was quite small, but the
collection was over 12K prints.
Ota Memorial Museum of Art.
Check out Toyko National Museum, and look thru the painted scrolls, too.
If you happen to be in/near SF the DeYoung has a Japanese collection, too.

You will also find print of Westerners labeled "Southern Barbarians".
Look also for 16th c waterfront views of famous port towns like
Yokohama.

>>Namban
> thanks I think you helped

Actually, it's quite common to see Japanese words with "n" or "m"
spelled either way when transliterated.  Ditto the hard "g" & "k".
Eventually the standard spelling gets codified in English.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com
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http://www.antiquedress.com/item4691.htm

De

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <IDEHICPIJOEBPADHEOGPAEEPIGAA.otsisto@socket.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 12:20:29 +0100
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Status: RO

Lovely dress. The lace is machinemade i think, but lovely anyway.

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historic Costume" <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:35 AM
Subject: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress


> http://www.antiquedress.com/item4691.htm
> 
> De
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Jan 20 08:24:08 2007
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] gathering lace
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Hi,
I have a question conserning gathering lace. I "whip" gather laces when i 
make shirts, for instance.
But now i am going to edge sleaves on an anglaise dress with 3 laces. The 
lace is in 3 widths, same pattern, but 3 widths. I dont think it wil work to 
put the 3 laces together and gather, because it would not give the right 
shape. So should i whip gather all 3 laces one at a time?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] gathering lace
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That is the only way I have been able to do the job with 
satisfaction...attaching each seperatly.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:22 AM
Subject: [h-cost] gathering lace


> Hi,
> I have a question conserning gathering lace. I "whip" gather laces when i 
> make shirts, for instance.
> But now i am going to edge sleaves on an anglaise dress with 3 laces. The 
> lace is in 3 widths, same pattern, but 3 widths. I dont think it wil work 
> to put the 3 laces together and gather, because it would not give the 
> right shape. So should i whip gather all 3 laces one at a time?
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat
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Oh lovely again, many thanks for the link.
I just wished someone would show how neat they made the covered buttons on 
the backside of the buttons. My buttons gets two clumsy. I have the right 
button moulds made of wood, but it is very difficult to get them nice and 
flat when you gather all the fabric at the back.
I just love the collar!

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <emeraldepona@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] man's coat


> http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_251.htm
>
>  http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm
>
> Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
>  Oh gosh,
> Thanks for posting :-)
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "otsisto"
> To: "Historical Costume"
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:44 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] man's coat
>
>
>> Thought some would like to see this.
>> http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_32.htm
>>
>> De
>>
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>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] gathering lace
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Status: RO

Hi,
Thanks for your reply, its always the latest method wich is the most 
attractive isnt it?

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] gathering lace


> That is the only way I have been able to do the job with 
> satisfaction...attaching each seperatly.
>
> Kathleen
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:22 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] gathering lace
>
>
>> Hi,
>> I have a question conserning gathering lace. I "whip" gather laces when i 
>> make shirts, for instance.
>> But now i am going to edge sleaves on an anglaise dress with 3 laces. The 
>> lace is in 3 widths, same pattern, but 3 widths. I dont think it wil work 
>> to put the 3 laces together and gather, because it would not give the 
>> right shape. So should i whip gather all 3 laces one at a time?
>>
>> Bjarne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Leif og Bjarne Drews
>> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>>
>> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:44:57 -0600
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Status: RO

When did machine lace start? 

De

-----Original Message-----
Lovely dress. The lace is machinemade i think, but lovely anyway.

Bjarne


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress
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Status: RO

Already in 18th century they invented a machine for making netting or tulle.
and about 1850ies i think they invented machines that imitated bobbin lace.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress


> When did machine lace start? 
> 
> De
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> Lovely dress. The lace is machinemade i think, but lovely anyway.
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Dear knowledgeable ones,
A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what  
color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have  
been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace, but  
I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called "dove  
gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
Thank you!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



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From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Belgium 1890
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Status: RO



Hi All--

A friend is writing a novel set in Bruges,Belgium in 1890. She needs some
help on clothing of the time and location. Can anyone help?

Her main character is an 18 year old male. She also has:
A 16 year old female.
A 63 year old female.  Wealthy.  Aristocratic.
Various men in their 30s and 40s.  Most of my characters are middle income.
She has got a politician and an art dealer who are closer to wealthy.

1890s, Bruges, Belgium, which probably had a lot of Dutch influence. She has
looked at sites of Victorian clothing, but she is not sure how much of that
applied to Northern Europe.

Thanks an awful lot.

Monica


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From: Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dove colored
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:03:30 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Nothing definitive from me, but I always assumed it was a soft taupe,  
like a mourning dove. Since I call the mourning doves that come to my  
feeders "the girls," I guess this would be especially appropriate for  
Little Women...  ;•}
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

On Jan 20, 2007, at 4:00 PM, Lauren Walker wrote:

> Dear knowledgeable ones,
> A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what  
> color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have  
> been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace,  
> but I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called  
> "dove gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
> Thank you!
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Dove colored
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Status: RO

In the 1960s there was a color, Dove white which was a white with a hint of
gray, though I have been told a white with a barely hint of pink which
doesn't make sense to me. It was associated with turtle doves.
Dove gray usually was a light gray, in association with the gray part of the
Mourning doves (usually has a peach colored breast). This is my
understanding of it but this is word of mouth handed down and not scholarly
research.

De


-----Original Message-----
Dear knowledgeable ones,
A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what
color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have
been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace, but
I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called "dove
gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
Thank you!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] lovely 1880s dress
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Status: RO

Thank you. I had no idea it was that early.
De

-----Original Message-----
Already in 18th century they invented a machine for making netting or tulle.
and about 1850ies i think they invented machines that imitated bobbin lace.

Bjarne


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From: "Katy Bishop" <katybishop64@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dove colored
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Status: RO

I always thought of it as grey but....

for early 20th century, I have a silk floss booklet:

"Richard'sons Standard Colors, sewing silk and Button Hole Twist" 1909
4 pages of silk floss samples, about 375 of them, with names, includes
an incert for shades of the 1909 season.

They have a color called "dove" and it is a medium brown.

Some of my favorite color names:

Dregs of Wine (deep wine color)
Naiad (pale green)
Tally Ho (light brown/ochre)
Lizard (a deep green)

Katy

On 1/20/07, Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net> wrote:
> Dear knowledgeable ones,
> A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what
> color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have
> been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace, but
> I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called "dove
> gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
> Thank you!
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dove colored
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:48:39 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

...but mourning doves aren't gray. They're taupe (on the grayer or  
browner side depending partly on the light), with iridescent pinky- 
taupe or peachy-taupe breasts. This iridescence is, I believe, more  
prominent on the male. I'd expect that this color would have been  
very popular with Victorians--as it is with me, I'd LOVE to have a  
gown of that soft taupe color especially if it were trimmed in peach!  
(and dark dots on the train or around the hem?)
--Ruth Anne

http://www.backyardbirdcam.com/gallery/mourning-dove.htm
On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:18 PM, otsisto wrote:

> In the 1960s there was a color, Dove white which was a white with a  
> hint of
> gray, though I have been told a white with a barely hint of pink which
> doesn't make sense to me. It was associated with turtle doves.
> Dove gray usually was a light gray, in association with the gray  
> part of the
> Mourning doves (usually has a peach colored breast). This is my
> understanding of it but this is word of mouth handed down and not  
> scholarly
> research.
>
> De
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Dear knowledgeable ones,
> A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what
> color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have
> been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace, but
> I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called "dove
> gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
> Thank you!
> Lauren
> Lauren M. Walker
> lauren.walker@comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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From: "Katy Bishop" <katybishop64@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dove colored
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Status: RO

I guess that fits in with the brown shade of the silk sample.  It's a
very pretty brown, darker than I think of as a mourning dove.

Katy

On 1/20/07, Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com> wrote:
> ...but mourning doves aren't gray. They're taupe (on the grayer or
> browner side depending partly on the light), with iridescent pinky-
> taupe or peachy-taupe breasts. This iridescence is, I believe, more
> prominent on the male. I'd expect that this color would have been
> very popular with Victorians--as it is with me, I'd LOVE to have a
> gown of that soft taupe color especially if it were trimmed in peach!
> (and dark dots on the train or around the hem?)
> --Ruth Anne
>
> http://www.backyardbirdcam.com/gallery/mourning-dove.htm
> On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:18 PM, otsisto wrote:
>
> > In the 1960s there was a color, Dove white which was a white with a
> > hint of
> > gray, though I have been told a white with a barely hint of pink which
> > doesn't make sense to me. It was associated with turtle doves.
> > Dove gray usually was a light gray, in association with the gray
> > part of the
> > Mourning doves (usually has a peach colored breast). This is my
> > understanding of it but this is word of mouth handed down and not
> > scholarly
> > research.
> >
> > De
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Dear knowledgeable ones,
> > A Victorian literature scholar of my acquaintance has asked me what
> > color I think "dove-colored", as used in Little Women, would have
> > been. She always thought white, because of white doves of peace, but
> > I have always assumed a light gray, like the color now called "dove
> > gray". Does anyone have anything definitive on this?
> > Thank you!
> > Lauren
> > Lauren M. Walker
> > lauren.walker@comcast.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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"Unto my friends and all the noble and gentle folk to whom this message comes, Greeting and Salutation.
 
Let it be known amongst the Land, that as of this day 20 Ianuarii , I, until now known as Norayn of The Wood, from the great lands of the Kingdom of Atlantia ,shall henceforth be known as Vederun (Frederun),in conformity with the rules and usages of the Current Middle Ages."


Vrederun
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From: "otsisto" <otsisto@socket.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Dove colored
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:04:28 -0600
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Status: RO

Around here they're a bit gray, kind of like this picture.
http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/phillipj/mourning-dove2.jpg

but these pictures they look more in the taupe and brown range as the common
color
http://tinyurl.com/2o7lm4

So we must have unique and non conformist mourning doves around here. :)

De



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Subject: [h-cost] RE:OT  As a courtesy .. .. ..
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Status: RO

Ummm. that is nice. Congratulations! Just a friendly note, this is not a SCA
list. It is a "Mundane" list, so half to two thirds on this list have no
clue as to what you are talking about except that it has to do with SCA.
This part sounds as if you were forced to change.
"..in conformity with the rules and usages of the Current Middle Ages."
I hope that it isn't so, as it is a volunteer organization. You should be
encouraged to find a "period" name but not forced.
Hope you enjoy your new name.

A extra little note: SCA also does Renaissance and pre- Middle ages.

De
SCA aka: Delis Alms
SCA alt.persona: Fiordelisia Dragano da Parma
-----Original Message-----
"Unto my friends and all the noble and gentle folk to whom this message
comes, Greeting and Salutation.

Let it be known amongst the Land, that as of this day 20 Ianuarii , I, until
now known as Norayn of The Wood, from the great lands of the Kingdom of
Atlantia ,shall henceforth be known as Vederun (Frederun),in conformity with
the rules and usages of the Current Middle Ages."


Vrederun


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Status: RO

Does anyone happen to know where this was originally published? I've tried
Godey's but I didn't see it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antebellum-Victorian-Civil-Knitted-Bonnet-Pattern-1857_W
0QQitemZ130069174468QQihZ003QQcategoryZ83930QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Thanks

Beth Chamberlain

 

 

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From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20070121063533.B724B1FC829@spyder.suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] knit bonnet - 1857
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Status: RO

Beth, has it occurred to you to askthe seller that question?  The pattern 
looks familar to me but as you have already checked Godeys, have you tried 
Peterson's, or Arthur's?

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Chamberlain" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:35 AM
Subject: [h-cost] knit bonnet - 1857


> Does anyone happen to know where this was originally published? I've tried
> Godey's but I didn't see it.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Antebellum-Victorian-Civil-Knitted-Bonnet-Pattern-1857_W
> 0QQitemZ130069174468QQihZ003QQcategoryZ83930QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Beth Chamberlain
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Subject: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
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Status: RO

Just thought I'd share a discovery with you. Frustrated by all my marking 
pencils which, either disappear too soon, don't fit into a regular 
sharpener, fall apart as soon as you try to apply pressure or sharpen them - 
I tried some of my Crayola Erasable colored pencils.

These work really well (I was using the yellow).  I am marking over 23 yards 
of trim placement - they show up on silk taffeta, and erase (even after 
ironing!) without leaving a mark.  The "lead" is strong enough to hold up to 
repeated sharpening, keep the point well and don't break at the slightest 
pressure.

Of course I would try a test on anything new, and with any of the other 
colors.


Sg 

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Subject: [h-cost] Book Opinion
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Status: RO

Someone mentioned receiving the following book as part of the h-costume gift 
exchange:

"Everlasting: The Flower in Fashion and Textiles" (fabric, lace, and 
beautiful garments)

It sounds as if it fits in perfectly with a topic I've been researching for 
several years, basically the effect of the study of botany primarily by 
women on both clothing and home fashion. I found the book online, but 
shipping is more than three times the cost of the book! It would be really 
helpful to have the opinion of someone who's actually seen the book as to 
the content before I order.

Thanks,
Kelly Dorman
Backward Glances
www.backwardglances.net

_________________________________________________________________
FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo – buy and sell with people 
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Status: RO

Quoting RobinandKelly Dorman <robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com>:

> Someone mentioned receiving the following book as part of the h-costume
> gift exchange:
>
> "Everlasting: The Flower in Fashion and Textiles" (fabric, lace, and
> beautiful garments)
>
> It sounds as if it fits in perfectly with a topic I've been researching
> for several years, basically the effect of the study of botany
> primarily by women on both clothing and home fashion.

I must have missed the original post -- and I'm not finding the book  
at all.  Having said that, I don't know what aspect of "clothing and  
home fashion" you're looking for, but have you seen Thomasina Beck's  
books on Floral Embroideries?  The Embroiderers Garden, Gardens of  
Silver and Gold, and The Embroiderers Flowers are the 3 titles that  
come to mind off the top of my head.

Susan, botanist
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:27:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] As a courtesy .. .. ..
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

With all due respect, your announcement is off-topic.  Let's stick to
costuming-related items, please :~)

Diana


> "Unto my friends and all the noble and gentle folk to whom this message
> comes, Greeting and Salutation.
>
> Let it be known amongst the Land, that as of this day 20 Ianuarii , I,
> until now known as Norayn of The Wood, from the great lands of the Kingdom
> of Atlantia ,shall henceforth be known as Vederun (Frederun),in conformity
> with the rules and usages of the Current Middle Ages."
>
>
> Vrederun
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
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"Everything for the Costumer"

"Become the change you want to see in the world."
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Subject: [h-cost] Re:Book Opinion
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Status: RO

>I must have missed the original post -- and I'm not finding the book  at 
>all.  Having said that, I don't know what aspect of "clothing and  home 
>fashion" you're looking for, but have you seen Thomasina Beck's  books on 
>Floral Embroideries?  The Embroiderers Garden, Gardens of  Silver and Gold, 
>and The Embroiderers Flowers are the 3 titles that  come to mind off the 
>top of my head.

>Susan, botanist

Actually, I misspoke; it's a catalogue for an exhibit, which is described 
here:

http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/everlasting/

My interest arose during the research phase of a group project, a 
presentation of subjects typically taught in American ladies academies 
during the antebellum and Civil War period. As a scientist in "real" life, I 
choose a scientific subject - botany. I soon found it was a much larger 
topic then I has anticipated and surprisingly controversial.

The following quote is exemplifies what I'm interested in:

"Look at the chair on which your friend is sitting, at the carpet beneath 
your feet, at the paper on the walls, at the curtains which shut out the 
wintery landscape, at the table near you, at the clock, the candlesticks, 
nay, the very fire-irons-or it may be the iron mouldings upon your stove-at 
the picture-frames, the book-case, the table-covers, the work-box, the 
inkstand, in short, all of the trifling knick-knacks in the room, and on all 
these you may see, in bolder or fainter lines. a thousand proofs of the debt 
we owe to the vegetable world, not only for so many of the fabrics 
themselves, but also for the beautiful forms, and colors, and ornaments we 
seek to imitate, branches and stems, leaves and tendrils, flowers and 
fruits, nuts and berries, are everywhere the models.... The most durable and 
costly materials the earth holds in her bosom, stone and marble, gold, 
silver, and gems, have been made to assume, in a thousand imposing or 
graceful forms, the lines of the living vegetation. How many of the proudest 
works of art would be wanting, if there had been no grace and dignity in 
trees, no beauty in leaves and flowers!

Susan Fenimore Cooper "Rural Hours by a Lady" 1854

Of course, flowers and vegetation have been used as inspiration in both 
clothing and home textiles for eons, but there is a definate connection 
between botany becoming an acceptable pursuit for women and the "blossoming" 
of realistic floral forms as decoration during the Victorian period.

Regards,
Kelly Dorman
Backward Glances
www.backwardglances.net

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:21:09 +1100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sharon Nevin <sharon.nevin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Opinion
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Status: RO

At 01:32 AM 22/01/2007, you wrote:
>Someone mentioned receiving the following book as part of the h-costume 
>gift exchange:
>
>"Everlasting: The Flower in Fashion and Textiles" (fabric, lace, and 
>beautiful garments)
>
>It sounds as if it fits in perfectly with a topic I've been researching 
>for several years, basically the effect of the study of botany primarily 
>by women on both clothing and home fashion. I found the book online, but 
>shipping is more than three times the cost of the book!

I'm assuming you found it at the NGV site. I always found their postage 
prices to be some what inflated. Postage and Packaging should be around 
au$5.00 unregistered for it to be sent overseas given it's weight and size.

>  It would be really helpful to have the opinion of someone who's actually 
> seen the book as to the content before I order.


The first 3 pages are intro to the exhibition itself. Then there are 8 
pages on specific garments with one garment per page. Most of that page is 
taken up by a photograph of the garment (not the entire garment just a 
detailed shot) followed bya paragraph with details on the garment as well 
as a sentance or two on the more generalised history of that garment style. 
Finally there is a 9-page essay (including photos) on the Flower in Fashion 
and Textiles by Dr Peter McNeil, Head of the School of Art History and 
Theory at the univeristy of NSW. This does have 8 footnotes so is not 
unreferenced as such.  It does cover from the Renaissance onwards so covers 
a lot of time in very short space and does make brief references to 
developments in horticulture. There are a few more pages of photos and a 
listing of garments in the exhibition.

I found it an interesting read combining the subjects but 1600s onwards is 
not my forte for historic costuming and so a lot of the information 
presented in the booklet was new to me. It may be a bit basic as you have 
background knowledge here already. The photography is good. The only 
garment shown in full is an elizabethan coif, the rest are detail shots.

To answer you question I don't think it would be worth paying that much for 
shipping for the book. If you have non-credit card paypal I could pick you 
up a copy if you are interested (email me off list if so please).

Hope that helps
Sharon Nevin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] As a courtesy .. .. ..
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Status: RO

She actually spammed a bunch of lists I'm on with this, and I don't know
that *any* of them were exclusively SCA....
I'd have just deleted them, but I get those lists as digests....
--Sue, working on ideas for weaving her own belt for a Norman gown....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] As a courtesy .. .. ..


> With all due respect, your announcement is off-topic.  Let's stick to
> costuming-related items, please :~)
>
> Diana
>
>
> > "Unto my friends and all the noble and gentle folk to whom this message
> > comes, Greeting and Salutation.
> >
> > Let it be known amongst the Land, that as of this day 20 Ianuarii , I,
> > until now known as Norayn of The Wood, from the great lands of the
Kingdom
> > of Atlantia ,shall henceforth be known as Vederun (Frederun),in
conformity
> > with the rules and usages of the Current Middle Ages."


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Quoting RobinandKelly Dorman <robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com>:

>
> The following quote is exemplifies what I'm interested in:
>

*wonderful quote snipped*

>
> Susan Fenimore Cooper "Rural Hours by a Lady" 1854

Yeah.  I *want* that book.  She has a wonderful essay on Trillium in  
there.  :-)

>
> Of course, flowers and vegetation have been used as inspiration in both
> clothing and home textiles for eons, but there is a definate connection
> between botany becoming an acceptable pursuit for women and the
> "blossoming" of realistic floral forms as decoration during the
> Victorian period.

What kind of science do you do, if I can be nosey?  If you want, we  
can go off-list ...  Did you know Beatrix Potter was a lichenologist?

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:42:32 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dove colored
To: h-costume@indra.com
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In a message dated 1/21/2007 12:05:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
otsisto@socket.net writes:

So we  must have unique and non conformist mourning doves around here.  :)



***************
 
 
Of course not all individual mourning doves are the same color.
 
But "dove" is more than likely a pale grey on the warm side....towards pink  
or peach [as opposed to yellow]. I have a "Godet  Americanized Paris  
Fashions, 1863" print of a "Dove" jacket with a pale pink silk skirt. The jacket  is a 
pale ,warm grey-pink. Of course these are hand colored so....it's still an  
interpretation. But gloves are often referred to a "dove" and are usually  
depicted as pale grey.
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From: Cin <cinbarnes@gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: ...as a courtesy
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Status: RO

This is a costume list... please dont post your SCA stuff here unless
it is costume related.  If we all posted off topic things this list
would be rapidly cease being the delightful & useful source of
information that many of us have found it to be.

The irony of the subject line did provoke a wry smile.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!
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Status: RO

Hi again!

I'm kind of stuck. I've found a lot of very interesting images of Namban 
traders.

For example:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/NanbanGroup.JPG
or this, from the Costume museum
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/33.htm

Both those sources are Japanese, BTW.

They're a little later than what I'm aiming for, but I'm still curious about 
one thing: I can't find images of Europeans from European sources, wearing 
the long poufy pants. Short ones, yes, down to about just below the knee. 
Longer, no. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I've looked at 
all my portrait and pattern books covering the period, as well as on the 
Web, and I still can't find them. It's not in Alcega, Arnold or Waugh, and 
it's not in my books about Renaissance portraits. It's not even in Peackock, 
who can sure make up some funky stuff sometimes!

Maybe I'm just not looking late enough? But even later on, high boots were 
so popular that pants seem to stay around knee-length.

I'm just curious. I'm aiming at 1580-1600, maybe even earlier, so I doubt 
the poufy pants and straight-waisted jackets are correct (higher waists and 
long points seemed to be fashionable at the time). But those images got me 
wondering... 

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Status: RO

Hi Saragrace,
I dont know these collours, but how do you erase the mark on the fabric?

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "TheRenaissanceTailor" 
<TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:12 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!


> Just thought I'd share a discovery with you. Frustrated by all my marking 
> pencils which, either disappear too soon, don't fit into a regular 
> sharpener, fall apart as soon as you try to apply pressure or sharpen 
> them - I tried some of my Crayola Erasable colored pencils.
>
> These work really well (I was using the yellow).  I am marking over 23 
> yards of trim placement - they show up on silk taffeta, and erase (even 
> after ironing!) without leaving a mark.  The "lead" is strong enough to 
> hold up to repeated sharpening, keep the point well and don't break at the 
> slightest pressure.
>
> Of course I would try a test on anything new, and with any of the other 
> colors.
>
>
> Sg
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] As a courtesy .. .. .. 
To: h-costume@indra.com
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Status: RO

 
so.....
 
could somebody please tel those of us in the real(ish) world what it  means???
 
debbie
 
(ps - no offence to any sca members, and with tongue slightly in  cheek)
 
 
 
In a message dated 22/01/2007 19:03:06 GMT Standard Time,  
h-costume-request@indra.com writes:

With all  due respect, your announcement is off-topic.  Let's stick  to
costuming-related items, please :~)

Diana


> "Unto  my friends and all the noble and gentle folk to whom this message
>  comes, Greeting and Salutation.
>
> Let it be known amongst the  Land, that as of this day 20 Ianuarii , I,
> until now known as Norayn  of The Wood, from the great lands of the Kingdom
> of Atlantia ,shall  henceforth be known as Vederun (Frederun),in conformity
> with the rules  and usages of the Current Middle Ages."
>
>
>  Vrederun
>  _______________________________________________


 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] As a courtesy .. .. ..
From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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Status: RO


>
> so.....
>
> could somebody please tel those of us in the real(ish) world what it
> means???
>
> debbie

She's letting people know that she has changed her SCA name.

And I was sorta hoping she would come forth and apologize for spamming the
various lists with this announcement.  My advice is:

NEVER e-mail your whole address book without double-checking :~)

Diana

-- 
www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

"Become the change you want to see in the world."
--Ghandi

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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:58:28 -0800
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Status: RO

I remember reading that Japan was closed to outsiders until relatively
recently (1800's). Only the Portuguese traded with them, in only one area.
Maybe look in Portuguese sources.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Audrey Bergeron-Morin
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:36 PM
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!


Hi again!

I'm kind of stuck. I've found a lot of very interesting images of Namban 
traders.

For example:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/NanbanGroup.JPG
or this, from the Costume museum
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/33.htm

Both those sources are Japanese, BTW.

They're a little later than what I'm aiming for, but I'm still curious about

one thing: I can't find images of Europeans from European sources, wearing 
the long poufy pants. Short ones, yes, down to about just below the knee. 
Longer, no. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I've looked at 
all my portrait and pattern books covering the period, as well as on the 
Web, and I still can't find them. It's not in Alcega, Arnold or Waugh, and 
it's not in my books about Renaissance portraits. It's not even in Peackock,

who can sure make up some funky stuff sometimes!

Maybe I'm just not looking late enough? But even later on, high boots were 
so popular that pants seem to stay around knee-length.

I'm just curious. I'm aiming at 1580-1600, maybe even earlier, so I doubt 
the poufy pants and straight-waisted jackets are correct (higher waists and 
long points seemed to be fashionable at the time). But those images got me 
wondering... 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!
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>I remember reading that Japan was closed to outsiders until relatively
> recently (1800's). Only the Portuguese traded with them, in only one area.
> Maybe look in Portuguese sources.

The Portuguese arrived in Japan in the 1540s or 1560s, not totally certain. 
Japan had closed its borders to China, but not to other trading countries. 
There were the Portuguese and the Dutch, mainly, at the time, because the 
Spanish were too busy conquering South America ;-P That is, until Japan 
closed its borders completely around 1650 - then they only allowed the Dutch 
to do trade, and only in some very specific places.

In any case, Portugal and Spain were under the same rule for a while 
somewhere around 1600, give or take about 50 years (and then became 
independant again), so the royalty must have been wearing the same thing, 
which should have trickled down to the lower classes. If you look at 
Portuguese and Spanish paintings of royalty at the time, they really are 
wearing almost the same thing. Alcega might be portraying the higher 
classes, but he does NOT portray royalty. This is stated quite clearly in 
the introduction. So, in 1585, the poufy pant thing was not happening in his 
part of Spain at least.

In any case, Spanish OR Portuguese, I am totally unable to find anything 
even resembling long poufy pants. Anywhere but on Japanese representations 
of European traders.

Also, finding Portuguese sources is another challenge. I didn't find much 
out there about Portuguese fashion in the Renaissance... especially not for 
the merchant class! 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
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Status: RO

Each pencil has an eraser attached to the top end of the pencil...but I am 
sure any other eraser would work too.

http://www.dickblick.com/zz205/84/

Sg


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!


Hi Saragrace,
I dont know these collours, but how do you erase the mark on the fabric?

Bjarne 

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From: "Katy Bishop" <katybishop64@gmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Fwd: [h-cost] 19th cen Knitting pattern help
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A friend of mine, Silvana Siddali, has been researching mid-19th
century kittting patterns, so I asked her about the knitting yarn in
question.  She has also produced some really nice volumes, with a
friend, reproducing period knitting patterns with reconstructed
instructions called "Knitting a la Mode: and "Knit Two a la Mode."
The original patterns are all from La Mode Illustree 1860-1865.  I
have just added her books to my website:

http://www.vintagevictorian.com/Ordering.html

Silvana's reply about yarn and knitting resources follows the original
h-costume post.

Katy

>Original post:

>http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/cw/1864sontag.html

>could someone comment on what yarn would be a good
>substitute for Zephyr in this pattern?   I'm wondering if
>we are talking something like fingering yarn?   Angora?
>I'm aware this is probably not still available, but what
>would make a similar garment, not necessarily period
>correct, but just as pleasing

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Silvana Siddali <silvana.siddali@gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 19th cen Knitting pattern help
To: Katy Bishop <katybishop64@gmail.com>

First of all, here's an excellent link for anyone who is interested in
reproducing 19th century knitting patterns authentically:
http://www.raggedsoldier.com/knitting_1.pdf

I'm on a lot of historic / victorian / civil war era knitting lists,
and I can tell you that there's a great deal of discussion about
zephyr yarn.  Although there are currently zephyr yarns being produced
today, some experts say that they're not really perfect repros of
mid-19th century yarns.  However, Halcyon makes a really lovely zephyr
yarn that I believe works very well, both in terms of texture and
fineness:
http://www.halcyonyarn.com/Yarn_pages/yarn027.html   This is a
wool-silk blend.  Colleen Formby, who has done extensive research in
this area, has said that period zephyr yarn was probably all-wool.  In
any event, I would say that a very fine pure wool, either fingering or
sock weight, would work with a pattern calling for zephyr.

Angora wasn't used in this country, not for knitting anyway, not
during the civil war era.  I've found some evidence that Parisian
ladies were experimenting with angora wool (at least that's what I
think right now); they called it soie de lapin.  To the best of my
knowledge, american women didn't knit with angora or mohair until much
later in the 19th century.

One other thing -- I highly recommend these knitting reference cards
for people attempting to reproduce period knitting:
http://www.raggedsoldier.com/

You might have to get onto the site itself to search for them under
craft supplies, since there doesn't seem to be a direct link.  They
are very useful -- I always take them with me when I shop for yarn or
needles.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Silvana



On 1/18/07, Katy Bishop <katybishop64@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, this was posted on h-costume, any thoughts?  If I sent in an
> answer I could also plug your booklets.
>
> Katy
>
> Specific quote from the original pattern:
>
> "In the front of the number we give a very beautiful pattern, in
> colors, for a Crocheted Sontag, Shawl Pattern.
> Materials. – 3 oz. scarlet double zephyr; 3 oz. black; 2 oz. white. "
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Kirsten Felton <basyefelton@floodcity.net>
> Date: Jan 18, 2007 10:19 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] 19th cen Knitting pattern help
> To: h-costume@indra.com
>
>
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/cw/1864sontag.html
>
> could someone comment on what yarn would be a good
> substitute for Zephyr in this pattern?   I'm wondering if
> we are talking something like fingering yarn?   Angora?
> I'm aware this is probably not still available, but what
> would make a similar garment, not necessarily period
> correct, but just as pleasing.
>
> thanks,  kitty
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> --
> Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
> vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
>     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
>      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
>



-- 
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: aprons
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Status: RO

 Sorry I'm a little late commenting on this subject, but Brueghel (Flemish 1530s-40s) portrays aprons that seem to be a big rectangle of linen tucked into a belt. 
  
 http://tinyurl.com/2ded6x
 
 I have a book with a really good copy of this painting and other Brueghels, and up close you can see the women have tiny little narrow belts that seem to be leather. Some women wear more than one belt. Their aprons are usually tucked into a belt or sometimes their overskirts are flipped up and tucked into the belt, although I don't know if that's in lieu of an apron or just to show off the contrasting lining. 
 
 Hope this helps,
 Tea Rose
 
   
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
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Status: RO

Hi Saragrace,
Thanks for the informations.
I thoaght perhaps it could be usefull with marking embroidery patterns, but 
it wont be good if you have to erase it with a rubber, would spoil the 
embroidery. But i see that it would be a great help for trim marks, as you 
said.

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!


> Each pencil has an eraser attached to the top end of the pencil...but I am 
> sure any other eraser would work too.
>
> http://www.dickblick.com/zz205/84/
>
> Sg
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
>
>
> Hi Saragrace,
> I dont know these collours, but how do you erase the mark on the fabric?
>
> Bjarne
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:44:22 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Dear Bjarne, et al: What *do* you use to mark embroidery patterns,  
and how do you get the marks to go away afterwards?
Thanks!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 23, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Hi Saragrace,
> Thanks for the informations.
> I thoaght perhaps it could be usefull with marking embroidery  
> patterns, but it wont be good if you have to erase it with a  
> rubber, would spoil the embroidery. But i see that it would be a  
> great help for trim marks, as you said.
>
> Bjarne
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace Knauf"  
> <wickedfrau@msn.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
>
>
>> Each pencil has an eraser attached to the top end of the  
>> pencil...but I am sure any other eraser would work too.
>>
>> http://www.dickblick.com/zz205/84/
>>
>> Sg
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews"  
>> <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
>> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
>>
>>
>> Hi Saragrace,
>> I dont know these collours, but how do you erase the mark on the  
>> fabric?
>>
>> Bjarne
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:35:09 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: aprons
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Status: RO

I have come across modern "traditional" costumes in France, probably 
based on 19th century, where they roll the overskirt up and to the back 
and tuck it into the waistband.  I was told this was originally to keep 
it clean, effectively using the linen/cotton underskirt instead of an 
apron.

Jean


tearoses@aol.com wrote
> Sorry I'm a little late commenting on this subject, but Brueghel 
>(Flemish 1530s-40s) portrays aprons that seem to be a big rectangle of 
>linen tucked into a belt.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2ded6x
>
> I have a book with a really good copy of this painting and other 
>Brueghels, and up close you can see the women have tiny little narrow 
>belts that seem to be leather. Some women wear more than one belt. 
>Their aprons are usually tucked into a belt or sometimes their 
>overskirts are flipped up and tucked into the belt, although I don't 
>know if that's in lieu of an apron or just to show off the contrasting 
>lining.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Tea Rose
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and 
>security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from 
>across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Status: RO

I've been using normal (read: cheap) colored pencils to mark dark & black 
fabric for a while, and haven't had any trouble.  A normal pencil eraser 
will erase them, but I can generally just rub real hard with my finger. 
I've had no problem getting the marks to just wash out, though... of course, 
that may depend on fiber, and I haven't tried it on too wide a range of 
fabrics, but it washed out of wool and silk perfectly well!

The marks last much longer than a chalk pencil mark would, but they're still 
not quite durable enough for say, a large detailed embroidery motif.  At 
least, _I_ can't use them that way, since I rarely use a hoop and therefore 
get my fingers all over the fabric, wearing off the marks.

If I see the erasable ones for sale, I'll probably try them, though. =}

-E House

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!
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Status: RO

> In any case, Spanish OR Portuguese, I am totally unable to find anything 
> even resembling long poufy pants. Anywhere but on Japanese 
> representations of European traders.

So if the event is mostly Japanese, I'd go with the Japanese 
representations of the namban, and cross-dress if I was a biological 
female playing a namban.
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Subject: [h-cost] marking embroidery designs (was: Crayola Erasable Colored
	Pencils)
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Status: RO

For all but black fabric, I use thin-line water-soluble ink pens. For really 
fine lines or when the ink just keeps bleeding, I use a soft graphite 
pencil; it washes out just fine.  For black fabrics, I haven't found 
anything I'm really happy with yet, but for my next project (beading rather 
than embroidery, but same problem) I plan to try heavy duty solvy--it's a 
sort of an interfacing that dissolves in water, but is thick/durable enough 
to mark on with pen.  (Made by Sulky.)  I'll draw the design on that, then 
bead through it into the fabric, then dunk & dry it.  Hope it goes well!

Other thinks I've tried on black fabric are putting normal iron-on 
interfacing on the back, with the design already drawn on, and then just 
embroidering from the back side.  It works well for simple stuff/stitches, 
but it can get tedious really quickly.  I've also gone the back interfacing 
route, but instead of embroidering from the back, basted the outlines of the 
design and then removed the interfacing before embroidering.  It works well 
enough, but I haven't been able to get as much detail in the basted design 
as I'd like.  For simple or narrow designs, a colored pencil works well for 
me.

-E House 

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Subject: [h-cost] FW: Polistampa - 'Moda a Firenze 1540-1580' Reprint
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e-mail message from POLISTAMPA
-----Original Message-----
From: promo@polistampa.com [mailto:promo@polistampa.com]
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 3:51 AM
To: promo@polistampa.com
Subject: Polistampa - 'Moda a Firenze 1540-1580'


P O L I S T A M P A


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
      Via Santa Maria 27/r · 50125 Firenze
      Tel. 055 2337702 - fax info/ufficio stampa 055 229430
      E-mail: info@polistampa.com Via Livorno 8/31 · 50142 Firenze
      Tel. 055 7326272 - fax ammin./magazz. 055 7377428
      E-mail: redazione@polistampa.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

      Gentile Cliente,
      siamo lieti di informarLa che nel prossimo mese di marzo sarà
ristampato uno dei più pregiati volumi editi da Polistampa: < A
href="http://www.polistampa.com//asp/sl.asp?id=3653" target=blank>Moda a
Firenze 1540-1580. Frutto della lunga e accurata ricerca di due note
studiose di storia del tessuto e del costume, interamente illustrato a
colori, tradotto in un ottimo inglese, questo grande volume ha riscosso
molto successo in Italia e all'estero. Esaurito da due mesi, sarà ristampato
in marzo per essere in libreria ad aprile 2007. Può prenotare il libro già
da adesso con lo sconto del 20%.

      Cordiali saluti,

            Antonio Pagliai
            Ufficio Promozione POLISTAMPA
            promo@polistampa.com









            Sconto 20%


            Stampa ottimizzata
              Bruna Niccoli / Roberta Orsi Landini

            Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
            Lo stile di Eleonora di Toledo e la sua influenza



            II edizione / II edition

            In reprint, available only from April 2007
            You can book it with 20% discount

            Italian-English texts, including: Eleonora di Toledo Duchess of
Tuscany in history and legend; Eleonora's style; Costume in the Medici
ceremonies; The clothes that have survived; The individual garments; Tailors
and embroiderers; Florentine textile production; The wardrobe of Eleonora di
Toledo; etc. (source: artbooks.com).
            © Firenze: Pagliai Polistampa 2005, 32cm., cloth, 252 pp., ca.
120 plates, most in color, ? 58,00, ISBN: 8883048679
            ______________________________________

            In ristampa, disponibile solo da aprile 2007
            Prenotabile con lo sconto del 20%

            Firenze, 1539: l'arrivo di Eleonora da Toledo, figlia del viceré
di Napoli e giovane sposa di Cosimo de' Medici, port a in città un clima
nuovo. La moda fiorentina, ancora sotto l'influenza del moralismo del
Savonarola, si apre, grazie allo stile della duchessa, al gusto
internazionale.
            Ma, pur essendo amante del lusso e delle novità che giungono
dalle principali corti europee, Eleonora è attenta a non urtare la
suscettibilità dei suoi sudditi attraverso un'eccessiva ostentazione. Adotta
uno stile sobrio, in cui elementi della tradizione si combinano con le
novità, modello di misura ed armonia per le successive sovrane di Firenze.
Il guardaroba della duchessa, ricostruito sui documenti d'archivio, quasi
nella sua completezza, permette un'analisi accurata di ogni singolo capo di
vestiario, visivamente individuato nella ritrattistica coeva; di ogni capo
si segue l'evoluzione di foggia e di gusto nel corso di quarant'anni circa.

            Testi in italiano e in inglese
            Pagliai·Polistampa
            I edizione: maggio 2005; I ristampa: marzo 2007




            © 2005, cm 24x31, pp. 256, ill. col., cart., € 58,00
            ISBN: 88-8304-867-9
            Collana: Pagliai Polistampa / Cataloghi d'arte, 50
            Settore: TL6 / Moda
            Altri settori: A1 / Storia dell'arte, A4 / Arti minori, DSU1 /
Storia

            Rassegna stampa:
            Eleonora Style (Maria Novella Batini, «Toscana Qui»)
            Alla moda di Eleonora (Elettra Gullè, «Toscana Tascabile»)
            Firenze nel '500
            La moda secondo Eleonora (Silvia Gigli, «Informatore»)
            Moda a Firenze, lo stile di Eleonora (Rebecca Romoli, «Toscan a
Oggi»)
            Il volume Moda a Firenze 1540-1580 dell'editore Polistampa: uno
spaccato nella moda e nel costume italiani (senza firma, «MarketPress»)
            Lettera da Firenze (Pier Francesco Listri, «Il Giornale»)
            Eleonora di Toledo. Un libro ricostruisce l'abbigliamento e lo
stile della moglie di Cosimo I (Domenico Del Nero, «Il Giornale»)
            La 'zampata' di Eleonora di Toledo, graduchessa di Toscana
(Sandra Salvato, «La Nazione»)
            Un libro su Eleonora di Toledo, l'aristocratica che fece moda
(Alessandro Guasti, «Metropoli»)
            Zeppe e pantaloni alla pescatora di una stilista del Cinquecento
(Letizia Cini, «La Nazione»)
            Calzoni al ginocchio e scarpe con la zeppa, la moda del XVI
secolo a Firenze (senza firma, «Adnkronos»)
            La moda del ’500 attraverso lo stile di Eleonora di Toledo
(senza firma, «Nove da Firenze»)

            Eventi correlati:
                 Presentazione del libro
                  Moda a Firenze 1540-1580
                 Moda a Firenze
                  1540-1580

                  Lo stile di Eleonora di Toledo e la sua influenza



      Qualora desiderasse non ricevere più informazioni editoriali o altra
posta dalla ns. Casa Editrice,
      è sufficiente che risponda a questo messaggio inserendo la parola
RIMUOVI in ‘oggetto’.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Nanban trader... again!
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In a message dated 1/23/2007 7:27:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kayta@frys.com writes:

So if  the event is mostly Japanese, I'd go with the Japanese 
representations of  the namban, and cross-dress if I was a biological 
female playing a  namban.



Sounds like the best plan to me, too.
 
Ann Wass
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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Help finding online resource
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Hiya all.

I have tried to search the archive, but have been unable to locate this resource.

It is a online archive with out of print and antique books scanned in, that you can download in txt or pdf.

The books are all on womens concerns: Sewing, embroidery, householdmanagement, childcare and some other miscellanious things.

The archive is hosted by a large university, and the archive currently have 1000's of books starting from around 1750 and forward.

Unfortunately I had a major computer crash which completely fried my harddrives, so no chance of recovering bookmarks ;-)

Hope this is enough information for you to be able to find what i mean

Tania (in snowy Denmark)

 
---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crayola Erasable Colored Pencils -work great!
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Dear Lauren,
I use a sharp pencil, og the kind with long sticks of crayon you refil your 
pencil with, i think its 0,5 mm.
As i always embroider to the edge of the pattern, the thread wil cover the 
pencil line, and therefore it is no problem with it.
Thats my way of doing it!

Bjarne



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Hi, Lauren,

	The idea is you don't make the embroidery marks go away; completely
unnecessary. The idea that these should disappear is entirely a modern
convention, as historically embroidery marks were made with ink. This is not
something about which I trouble myself. I just make sure my embroidery is
good enough to cover the marks. Just as the professionals of history. End of
story. :-)

	Speaking of which, I've just finished doing a restoration and
addition to a lovely vintage cotton voile christening gown. I am ever so
pleased. Hope to have pics and story of it up on the website in the next
week or two.

Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine,
original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Soon to come: books by
Lorina Stephens
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org



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From: Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help finding online resource
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Hello Tania,

is this what you're looking for?

http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/books.html

 
Bella


----- Original Message ----
From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2007 11:11:33 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Help finding online resource


Hiya all.

I have tried to search the archive, but have been unable to locate this resource.

It is a online archive with out of print and antique books scanned in, that you can download in txt or pdf.

The books are all on womens concerns: Sewing, embroidery, householdmanagement, childcare and some other miscellanious things.

The archive is hosted by a large university, and the archive currently have 1000's of books starting from around 1750 and forward.

Unfortunately I had a major computer crash which completely fried my harddrives, so no chance of recovering bookmarks ;-)

Hope this is enough information for you to be able to find what i mean

Tania (in snowy Denmark)

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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Status: RO

I'm at work and don't have my bookmarks on this computer. My first guesses
would be:
Home Economics Archive from Cornell
http://hearth.library.cornell.edu/
or
Making of America (a group of universities)
http://www.hti.umich.edu/m/moagrp/
Hope that helps,
Beth Chamberlain


On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Tania Gruning wrote:

> Hiya all.
> 
> I have tried to search the archive, but have been unable to locate this resource.
> 
> It is a online archive with out of print and antique books scanned in, that you can download in txt or pdf.
> 
> The books are all on womens concerns: Sewing, embroidery, householdmanagement, childcare and some other miscellanious things.
> 
> The archive is hosted by a large university, and the archive currently have 1000's of books starting from around 1750 and forward.
> 
> Unfortunately I had a major computer crash which completely fried my harddrives, so no chance of recovering bookmarks ;-)
> 
> Hope this is enough information for you to be able to find what i mean
> 
> Tania (in snowy Denmark)
> 
>  
> ---------------------------------
> Bored stiff? Loosen up...
> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Tania Gruning wrote:
>
>> Hiya all.
>>
>> I have tried to search the archive, but have been unable to locate   
>> this resource.
>>
>> It is a online archive with out of print and antique books scanned   
>> in, that you can download in txt or pdf.
>>
>> The books are all on womens concerns: Sewing, embroidery,   
>> householdmanagement, childcare and some other miscellanious things.
>>
>> The archive is hosted by a large university, and the archive   
>> currently have 1000's of books starting from around 1750 and forward.

This isan't that big of an archive, but it's the only one that I know of.

http://inky.library.yale.edu/medwomen/whichbook.html

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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From: "Anne Moeller" <ladyanne@quik.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: marking embroidery designs
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Status: RO

Thank you for that comment.  I was wondering why everyone was so concerned
about the markings.  I just assumed the lines are always covered by thread.

Anne

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Five Rivers Chapmanry
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:57 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] RE: marking embroidery designs

Hi, Lauren,

	The idea is you don't make the embroidery marks go away; completely
unnecessary. The idea that these should disappear is entirely a modern
convention, as historically embroidery marks were made with ink. This is not
something about which I trouble myself. I just make sure my embroidery is
good enough to cover the marks. Just as the professionals of history. End of
story. :-)

	Speaking of which, I've just finished doing a restoration and
addition to a lovely vintage cotton voile christening gown. I am ever so
pleased. Hope to have pics and story of it up on the website in the next
week or two.

Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine,
original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Soon to come: books by
Lorina Stephens
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org




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Subject: [h-cost] Re: using Solvy
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Status: RO

With Solvy, especially the heavy duty stuff - gently tear away the 
majority of the Solvy, leaving only the bits under the thread.  This 
makes it much easier to get it all out of the fabric.  Also, store it 
in a sealed zip bag, as humidity will make it sticky and unusable.

Finally, save all your scraps.  You can dissolve them in water, and 
use in a spray bottle or with a paintbrush for temporary 
stabilization of fabric for hooping, applying trim, or whatever.

HTH,
Sandy

At 01:01 PM 1/24/2007, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:20:23 -0600
>From: "E House" <formfunc@formfunction.org>
>Subject: [h-cost] marking embroidery designs
>
>For black fabrics, I haven't found anything I'm really happy with 
>yet, but for my next project (beading rather than embroidery, but 
>same problem) I plan to try heavy duty solvy--it's a sort of an 
>interfacing that dissolves in water, but is thick/durable enough
>to mark on with pen.  (Made by Sulky.)  I'll draw the design on 
>that, then bead through it into the fabric, then dunk & dry 
>it.  Hope it goes well!
>
>-E House

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: marking embroidery designs
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Status: RO

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anne Moeller" <ladyanne@quik.com>
> I was wondering why everyone was so concerned
> about the markings.


Several reasons!  First, I can stitch _more_ exactly than I can mark, which 
means that I may have to choose between a graceful line of embroidery, and 
covering my marks completely.  Second, I generally create my own embroidery 
designs, and it's a frequent occurence for me to change my mind halfway 
through about what I want the design to look like.  Third, many methods of 
marking can bleed into the nearby fabric, especially when the embroidered 
piece is washed, and I generally want my embroidered pieces to be washable. 
(And fourth, unlike the Victorian era, in my period messy stitching was 
considered perfectly acceptable!)

-E House 

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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Thanks a lot for the answers.
It was the HEART archive I was looking for, but the other two resources are wonderful too, and I look forward to looking them through. Knew someone on this list would be able to help

Tania (In cold snowy Denmark, and so happy frost has finally come, on account of mosquitoes next summer)

"Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword.com> wrote: 
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Tania Gruning wrote:
>
>> Hiya all.
>>
>> I have tried to search the archive, but have been unable to locate   
>> this resource.
>>
>> It is a online archive with out of print and antique books scanned   
>> in, that you can download in txt or pdf.
>>
>> The books are all on womens concerns: Sewing, embroidery,   
>> householdmanagement, childcare and some other miscellanious things.
>>
>> The archive is hosted by a large university, and the archive   
>> currently have 1000's of books starting from around 1750 and forward.

This isan't that big of an archive, but it's the only one that I know of.

http://inky.library.yale.edu/medwomen/whichbook.html

susan
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@goldsword.com
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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I have a long, 1920s style crystal bead necklace that needs restringing. 
  I hired someone before and they totally screwed up the job. If anyone 
is interested in doing it, please email me.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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From: ruthanneb@mindspring.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Restringing job
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Status: RO

My sister used to work for a jeweler and did a lot of stringing of beads and pearls. She says she might be interested but would need more details. She's in Arizona--you can e-mail her at HelenB2002@msn.com if you want to pursue!
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer


-----Original Message-----
>From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
>Sent: Jan 25, 2007 1:01 PM
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: [h-cost] Restringing job
>
>I have a long, 1920s style crystal bead necklace that needs restringing. 
>  I hired someone before and they totally screwed up the job. If anyone 
>is interested in doing it, please email me.
>
>Fran
>Lavolta Press
>http://www.lavoltapress.com
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:01:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
To: h-costume <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] pattern webpage
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Status: RO

Hi,
   
  I've just found a German webpage which has the largest collection of patterns (historical, fantasy and others) I ever saw being sold by just one company. The patterns come from smaller pattern making companies such as ageless patterns, mantua maker etc. The only disadvantage is that it's all in German (and thereby all shipping from Gemany).
  There it is:
  http://www.kostuem-kram.de/modules.php?warp=categories&group=2&kid=52ed34f42d7bf217e144e2dc77980c05
  I just wanted to let you know:-))
   
  Zuzana

 	
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Subject: [h-cost] craft books
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Status: RO

I just got a nice packet of How-to books from Crafters super sale.  Great 
reference stuff.
Beginner's guide to GOLDWORK (Chamberlin)
Elegant ribbon work (Gibb)
Ribbon Embroidery and Stump Work (Di van Niekerk)  The last two put me in 
the mind of what Bjarne so delights us with..Now for time to try to work 
some of this out...so many good ideas and so little time.  Lots of pictures 
and good explanation on setting up the fram ,transferring pattern, and 
manipulating the needle and other tools.. Sort of what is under discussion 
now?

Kathleen 

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Status: RO

Dear Kathleen,
Congratulations with your new books. I am sure something important and 
beautifull wil come to life, when you get your mind to do something with it.
Its many things that kick you in the right directions, books and other 
things.
One of the major things that gave me a real kick was the australian 
embroidery magazine Inspirations. I subscribed for it for 2 years, and also 
got a lot of their back issues. I dont subscribe for it anymore, because its 
almost the same style wich goes on with their issues, and i was only 
interrested to learn some things from them.
But they surely was a big inspiration for me.

Bjarne


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: [h-cost] craft books


>I just got a nice packet of How-to books from Crafters super sale.  Great 
>reference stuff.
> Beginner's guide to GOLDWORK (Chamberlin)
> Elegant ribbon work (Gibb)
> Ribbon Embroidery and Stump Work (Di van Niekerk)  The last two put me in 
> the mind of what Bjarne so delights us with..Now for time to try to work 
> some of this out...so many good ideas and so little time.  Lots of 
> pictures and good explanation on setting up the fram ,transferring 
> pattern, and manipulating the needle and other tools.. Sort of what is 
> under discussion now?
>
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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LLOYD MITCHELL wrote:

> I just got a nice packet of How-to books from Crafters super sale.  
> Great reference stuff.

What is that? A web site? I've been looking for a new hobby, and some 
cheap books would be great!


Dawn




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From: N Kipar <marquesate@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pattern webpage
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

I'd like to add, since I have dealt several times with this company, that the owner is absolutely wonderful, bending over backwards, and the prices are cheaper than in the UK and that includes shipping. I am now buying my patterns from them despite being in the UK.

I cannot recommend them enough.

Nicole

----- Original Message ----
From: Zuzana Kraemerova <zkraemerova@yahoo.com>
To: h-costume <h-costume@mail.indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, 25 January, 2007 7:01:15 PM
Subject: [h-cost] pattern webpage


Hi,
   
  I've just found a German webpage which has the largest collection of patterns (historical, fantasy and others) I ever saw being sold by just one company. The patterns come from smaller pattern making companies such as ageless patterns, mantua maker etc. The only disadvantage is that it's all in German (and thereby all shipping from Gemany).
  There it is:
  http://www.kostuem-kram.de/modules.php?warp=categories&group=2&kid=52ed34f42d7bf217e144e2dc77980c05
  I just wanted to let you know:-))
   
  Zuzana

    
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From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] craft books
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Status: RO

The company specializes in craft books and stuff for all sorts of 
interests...textiles, beading,tolecraft, ceramics, knitting and such.  They 
can be found at www.crafterschoice.com.  I have been a suscriber for many 
years .  Every once and a while they do a blowout sale...buy one at club 
price and add any you like to the list at 50% off.

I have found many great titles that add to my costume crafting lore.  Like 
Pieceworks magazine, they bring old master methods and means right to my 
work table.

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] craft books


> LLOYD MITCHELL wrote:
>
>> I just got a nice packet of How-to books from Crafters super sale.  Great 
>> reference stuff.
>
> What is that? A web site? I've been looking for a new hobby, and some 
> cheap books would be great!
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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Thank you for your encouragement.

I am in the last days of finishing the "Ditchley" gown for a 22" doll and am 
mostly pleased.  I made about 200 beaded motiffs with 'rubies' and pearls, 
mounted on dime-sized golden lace and attached them as appliques in as near 
the same as one can count and surmise what cannot be seen on the gown of the 
portrait.  I was surprised at Hunnicut's description of the one she did for 
ER...she mounted only the ones that would be seen by the camera.  La.
Now I understand why!

Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] craft books


> Dear Kathleen,
> Congratulations with your new books. I am sure something important and 
> beautifull wil come to life, when you get your mind to do something with 
> it.
> Its many things that kick you in the right directions, books and other 
> things.
> One of the major things that gave me a real kick was the australian 
> embroidery magazine Inspirations. I subscribed for it for 2 years, and 
> also got a lot of their back issues. I dont subscribe for it anymore, 
> because its almost the same style wich goes on with their issues, and i 
> was only interrested to learn some things from them.
> But they surely was a big inspiration for me.
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "LLOYD MITCHELL" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
> To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:28 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] craft books
>
>
>>I just got a nice packet of How-to books from Crafters super sale.  Great 
>>reference stuff.
>> Beginner's guide to GOLDWORK (Chamberlin)
>> Elegant ribbon work (Gibb)
>> Ribbon Embroidery and Stump Work (Di van Niekerk)  The last two put me in 
>> the mind of what Bjarne so delights us with..Now for time to try to work 
>> some of this out...so many good ideas and so little time.  Lots of 
>> pictures and good explanation on setting up the fram ,transferring 
>> pattern, and manipulating the needle and other tools.. Sort of what is 
>> under discussion now?
>>
>> Kathleen
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

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From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Need Help
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Status: RO

Hello list,

Does anyone out there have a link to color descriptions that they could
share?  

I am looking to find out what the color "dove gray" really is.  I thought I
knew but now I am not so sure.  

Is it a light gray with a blue tone or light gray with a pinkish-brown tone
(kind of closer to taupe)?  Also, which color would you most likely want to
use for Victorian costuming and/or men's suits?

Thanks!

Diana

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Status: RO

The unabridged _Oxford English Dictionary_ describes dove grey as "a 
warm grey with a tone of pink or purple."

Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed 
from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier 
names were often applied to the same old colors. Color was a marketing 
point, and fabric manufacturers dreamed up exotic color names like "moon 
on the desert."

In other words, the OED definition may be about as close to an exact 
definition as you ever get.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Diana Habra wrote:

> Hello list,
> 
> Does anyone out there have a link to color descriptions that they could
> share?  
> 
> I am looking to find out what the color "dove gray" really is.  I thought I
> knew but now I am not so sure.  
>
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historic Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Seeking early edition of Norris
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Status: RO


Does anyone on the list have in their own collection a copy of the
original editions of Herbert Norris's "Costume & Fashion," vol. 2 (Senlac
to Bosworth, 1066-1485) -- as opposed to the Dover reprint?

I need to compare a passage in two printings: 1927 and 1931.

The Dover reprint is supposedly a republication of the 1927 edition, but
the quote I'm looking at very likely refers to another work that wasn't
published till 1928. Thus my quandary. I need to know which of them was
drawing on the other, and that means figuring out when Norris first made
his statement.

I can probably get one via ILL, but I don't think I can get both
simultaneously. If necessary, I'll start running around to the local
university libraries, but I thought I'd try here first. If it turns out
the quote is in only one volume, I can try to ILL that from here.

--Robin

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From: "Helen Pinto" <hdpinto@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking early edition of Norris
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>,
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Status: RO

I have a facsimile (pre-photocopies) made by a friend at the Library of
Congress in the early 70's.  There is no date on the frontispiece, but
it was published by J M Dent and Sons, Ltd, London, and the preface
by Norris is dated 1924.  

What do you need?

                          -Helen/Aidan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historic Costume List" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:47 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Seeking early edition of Norris


> 
> Does anyone on the list have in their own collection a copy of the
> original editions of Herbert Norris's "Costume & Fashion," vol. 2 (Senlac
> to Bosworth, 1066-1485) -- as opposed to the Dover reprint?
> 
> I need to compare a passage in two printings: 1927 and 1931.
> 
> The Dover reprint is supposedly a republication of the 1927 edition, but
> the quote I'm looking at very likely refers to another work that wasn't
> published till 1928. Thus my quandary. I need to know which of them was
> drawing on the other, and that means figuring out when Norris first made
> his statement.
> 
> I can probably get one via ILL, but I don't think I can get both
> simultaneously. If necessary, I'll start running around to the local
> university libraries, but I thought I'd try here first. If it turns out
> the quote is in only one volume, I can try to ILL that from here.
> 
> --Robin
> 
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:06:42 +0000
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO



Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote: 
>Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed 
>from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier 
>names were often applied to the same old colors. 

I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
pinkish-purple.
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking early edition of Norris
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Status: RO


On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Helen Pinto wrote:

> I have a facsimile (pre-photocopies) made by a friend at the Library of
> Congress in the early 70's.  There is no date on the frontispiece, but
> it was published by J M Dent and Sons, Ltd, London, and the preface
> by Norris is dated 1924.  

I've written Helen privately. If anyone has the 1931 edition of vol. 2,
which was an update of the earlier volume republished as part of a larger
series, please let me know.

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:


>Kate Bunting
>Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>
> >>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
> >Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
> >from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
> >names were often applied to the same old colors.
>
>I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
>purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>pinkish-purple.

I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler 
aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as 
they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American 
companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name 
association she knew - I didn't!

Suzi

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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:


>Kate Bunting
>Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>
> >>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
> >Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
> >from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
> >names were often applied to the same old colors.
>
>I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
>purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>pinkish-purple.

I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler 
aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as 
they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American 
companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name 
association she knew - I didn't!

Suzi

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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:02:42 -0500
From: monica spence <monicaspence@optonline.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Need Help
In-reply-to: <45B96E5B.5010706@lavoltapress.com>
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Status: RO

Colors are still subjective in the fashion world--- today it might be deep
purple and next season aubergine. It is difficult to tell just what some
shades looked like, if only because the dyes are no longer used or
available.
Monica

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Lavolta Press
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:59 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need Help


The unabridged _Oxford English Dictionary_ describes dove grey as "a
warm grey with a tone of pink or purple."

Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
names were often applied to the same old colors. Color was a marketing
point, and fabric manufacturers dreamed up exotic color names like "moon
on the desert."

In other words, the OED definition may be about as close to an exact
definition as you ever get.

Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Diana Habra wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> Does anyone out there have a link to color descriptions that they could
> share?
>
> I am looking to find out what the color "dove gray" really is.  I thought
I
> knew but now I am not so sure.
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

I'm American, as well, and, like Patty, always thought of "ultramarine" as a
slightly greenish darkish blue (like a bright navy with a hint of green to
it).  If I remember to put "aubergine" through my mental translation
program, and think "oh, yeah...that's equivalent to eggplant," I wouldn't
think of it as anything but a really strong, dark purple.
Dunno about the generational thing--maybe the yahoos who are coming up with
new names for next season's "in colors" are running out of ideas? ;o)
--Sue

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rickard, Patty " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help


> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>
> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>
> >Kate Bunting
> >Librarian and 17th century reenactor
> >
> > >>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
> > >Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
> > >from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
> > >names were often applied to the same old colors.
> >
> >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
> >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> >pinkish-purple.
>
> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> association she knew - I didn't!
>
> Suzi


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From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

At 14:58 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
>for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
>Patty
>

Could be - I was old enough to be this lady's mother. According to my 
small dictionary - too lazy to heave out the O.E.D. - ultramarine is 
a blue pigment. The thread I bought was not blue!

> >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
> >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> >pinkish-purple.
>
>I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
>aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
>they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
>companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
>association she knew - I didn't!
>
>Suzi
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
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Status: RO

I believe that ultramarine was originally made from lapis lazuli & would
be similar in color.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:09 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

At 14:58 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
>for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
>Patty
>

Could be - I was old enough to be this lady's mother. According to my 
small dictionary - too lazy to heave out the O.E.D. - ultramarine is 
a blue pigment. The thread I bought was not blue!

> >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a
dark
> >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> >pinkish-purple.
>
>I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
>aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
>they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
>companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
>association she knew - I didn't!
>
>Suzi
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
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Status: RO

Just checked my small dictionary - ultramarine was named because the
pigment came from over the sea, not because it looked like the sea as I
had thought, so there was an ultramarine blue, an ultramarine purple &
even an ultramarine yellow.

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:09 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

At 14:58 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
>for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
>Patty
>

Could be - I was old enough to be this lady's mother. According to my 
small dictionary - too lazy to heave out the O.E.D. - ultramarine is 
a blue pigment. The thread I bought was not blue!

> >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a
dark
> >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> >pinkish-purple.
>
>I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
>aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
>they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
>companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
>association she knew - I didn't!
>
>Suzi
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Seeking early edition of Norris
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:49:05 -0800
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Status: RO

Robin,

	I have an original bound copy.  I'm just heading for work.  If no one else
comes back to you first, I should be about to get it to you in about 9
hours.

Regina Romsey (AnTir)
>
>
> Does anyone on the list have in their own collection a copy of the
> original editions of Herbert Norris's "Costume & Fashion," vol. 2 (Senlac
> to Bosworth, 1066-1485) -- as opposed to the Dover reprint?
>
> I need to compare a passage in two printings: 1927 and 1931.
>
> The Dover reprint is supposedly a republication of the 1927 edition, but
> the quote I'm looking at very likely refers to another work that wasn't
> published till 1928. Thus my quandary. I need to know which of them was
> drawing on the other, and that means figuring out when Norris first made
> his statement.
>
> I can probably get one via ILL, but I don't think I can get both
> simultaneously. If necessary, I'll start running around to the local
> university libraries, but I thought I'd try here first. If it turns out
> the quote is in only one volume, I can try to ILL that from here.
>
> --Robin
>
>

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From: Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

"Ultramarine," like many other colors (magenta, Prussian blue,  
"midnight blue," apricot, burnt sienna, ocher, even lavender), was  
described definitively and permanently for me in my youth by my big  
set of Crayola crayons. And Patty's description definitely squares  
with Crayola.
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
p.s. The Crayola color "flesh" has been long since re-named. Lucky,  
that--I didn't know ANYBODY who was that color, but clearly it did  
imply that dark-skinned people were an aberration as far as the color  
of their "flesh" was concerned, and I'm glad that notion has been  
obliterated! Significantly, though, I never can remember what the new  
name is....

On Jan 26, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>
> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>> Kate Bunting
>> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>>
>>>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
>>> Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
>>> from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
>>> names were often applied to the same old colors.
>>
>> I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a  
>> dark
>> purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>> recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>> pinkish-purple.
>
> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> association she knew - I didn't!
>
> Suzi
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Five Rivers Chapmanry" <lgsteph@wightman.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:57:27 -0500
Organization: Five Rivers
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: pattern webpage 
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	Plainly you never visited our site when we used to carry historical
sewing patterns. Used to carry 22 different lines, covering 500 AD through
1950. Alas, they're almost all gone now. What remains is at 75% discount.

Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine,
original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Soon to come: books by
Lorina Stephens
519-799-5577 info@5rivers.org - www.5rivers.org


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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

A lot of these color names...ultramarine blue, ochre, sienna, burnt sienna,  
umber, burnt umber, cadmium red, cadmium yellow, alizarin crimson.... I  
learned when I was painting in oils. They also come up in watercolors and  gauche. 
Obviously the names are derived from what was ground up to make pigments  way 
back when painting was a guild profession, and supposedly the hues were the  
same from batch to batch of pigment. Sorta like a color-match system. So if a  
fresco painter in Milan writes to his fellow painter in Florence and talks 
about  using "burnt umber", everyone knows exactly what color he means.
 
I had a scene painting teacher from Germany once who told us the only  colors 
you needed to paint any scene were: lead white, alizarin crimson,  
ultramarine blue, and ochre. Period. He made us paint a pastoral setting with  only 
these colors. It actually works, but you definitely get an "old world"  muted look.
 
Nowadays there are so many colors made so many different ways it can be  mind 
boggling.
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Ruth Anne Baumgartner
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:50 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

"Ultramarine," like many other colors (magenta, Prussian blue,  
"midnight blue," apricot, burnt sienna, ocher, even lavender), was  
described definitively and permanently for me in my youth by my big  
set of Crayola crayons. And Patty's description definitely squares  
with Crayola.
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
p.s. The Crayola color "flesh" has been long since re-named. Lucky,  
that--I didn't know ANYBODY who was that color, but clearly it did  
imply that dark-skinned people were an aberration as far as the color  
of their "flesh" was concerned, and I'm glad that notion has been  
obliterated! Significantly, though, I never can remember what the new  
name is....


peach

Patty


On Jan 26, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>
> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>> Kate Bunting
>> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>>
>>>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
>>> Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
>>> from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
>>> names were often applied to the same old colors.
>>
>> I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a  
>> dark
>> purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>> recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>> pinkish-purple.
>
> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> association she knew - I didn't!
>
> Suzi
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:20:32 -0500
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Status: RO

About color names in fashion -- there are actually official arbiters  
of color names. Many years ago I did an article on The Color  
Association, which each season releases a forecast booklet with named  
swatches of colors that will be used in fashion, home decoration,  
etc. for the coming season. The names are what fashion will call  
those colors in the appropriate season, and the forecasts exist so  
you can buy a peach sweater in one store and a peach skirt in another  
and have them match.
I just found this article, which talks about the Color Association  
and bunch of other color forecasting organizations. http:// 
jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2006-05-02/willhite-colorforecast

I think when I did my article, Color Association was the only one, as  
it is the oldest -- since 1915.
http://www.colorassociation.com/
According to the Web site, they have extensive archives and a color  
library. They also offer a couple of books that I just put on my own  
wish list:

The Color Compendium
by Augustine Hope and Margaret Walch
$40 hardcover
This is the first comprehensive, illustrated encyclopedia entirely  
devoted to color. This extraordinary reference covers the full range  
of color-related subjects, including their scientific, technical,  
artistic, and historical aspects.

and

Living Colors : A Designer's Guide to 80 Essential Palettes from  
Ancient to Modern Times
by Margaret Walch and Augustine Hope
$35 hardcover

A consummate guide to color, this indispensable, spiralbound volume  
displays 80 color schemes--drawn from a variety of different mediums,  
from architecture and apparel to paintings and pottery, across a  
range of historical periods--each individually presented, described,  
and illustrated in a handy, gatefold format, with representative four- 
color images and actual printed chips for matching against the  
project at hand. From the dominant reds of ancient Egyptian ochers to  
the psychedelic palettes of the sixties, Living Colors will inspire  
professionals and laypeople alike in choosing colors for a multitude  
of uses.

Both are available by mail from the Color Association. More info:
http://www.colorassociation.com/site/books.html

Since they started in 1915, they probably do have resources back into  
at least late Victorian.

Enjoy!
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Ruth Anne Baumgartner
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:50 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>
> "Ultramarine," like many other colors (magenta, Prussian blue,
> "midnight blue," apricot, burnt sienna, ocher, even lavender), was
> described definitively and permanently for me in my youth by my big
> set of Crayola crayons. And Patty's description definitely squares
> with Crayola.
> --Ruth Anne Baumgartner
> scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
> p.s. The Crayola color "flesh" has been long since re-named. Lucky,
> that--I didn't know ANYBODY who was that color, but clearly it did
> imply that dark-skinned people were an aberration as far as the color
> of their "flesh" was concerned, and I'm glad that notion has been
> obliterated! Significantly, though, I never can remember what the new
> name is....
>
>
> peach
>
> Patty
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:
>
>> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
>> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national,  
>> thing?
>>
>> Patty
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
>> bounces@indra.com]
>> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
>> To: Historical Costume
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>>
>> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Kate Bunting
>>> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>>>
>>>>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
>>>> Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names  
>>>> changed
>>>> from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different,  
>>>> trendier
>>>> names were often applied to the same old colors.
>>>
>>> I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a
>>> dark
>>> purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>>> recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>>> pinkish-purple.
>>
>> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
>> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
>> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
>> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
>> association she knew - I didn't!
>>
>> Suzi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: PS:Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:32:13 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

PS: So, yes, in case it was driving you crazy -- there really IS an  
organized conspiracy to make color names confusing.
;-)
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net




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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

>  and the forecasts exist so  you can buy a peach sweater in one store and 
> a peach skirt in another  and have them match.


hahahahahaahhhhaaaaaaa!

Nice in theory, but I've *never* seen it happen. At least not in the stores 
where I shop. Maybe in couture shopping...I couldn't say.

Denise B
Iowa 

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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:46:36 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Yeah, I know -- but *theoretically* if the peach were called "Georgia  
Bloom" in both stores, or whatever, then they would match. I don't  
think the restriction goes as high as couture, though -- it does get  
down into ready-to-wear, but if you're like me and you buy on sale a  
lot, you don't know what season's clothes you're actually buying, for  
starters. The proliferation of color forecasters has probably changed  
things, too.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
lauren.walker@comcast.net



On Jan 26, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Land of Oz wrote:

>>  and the forecasts exist so  you can buy a peach sweater in one  
>> store and a peach skirt in another  and have them match.
>
>
> hahahahahaahhhhaaaaaaa!
>
> Nice in theory, but I've *never* seen it happen. At least not in  
> the stores where I shop. Maybe in couture shopping...I couldn't say.
>
> Denise B
> Iowa
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Status: RO

At 19:46 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>Yeah, I know -- but *theoretically* if the peach were called "Georgia
>Bloom" in both stores, or whatever, then they would match. I don't
>think the restriction goes as high as couture, though -- it does get
>down into ready-to-wear, but if you're like me and you buy on sale a
>lot, you don't know what season's clothes you're actually buying, for
>starters. The proliferation of color forecasters has probably changed
>things, too.
>Lauren
>Lauren M. Walker
>lauren.walker@comcast.net

Here in the U.K. I am wearing "amethyst" pants, "mauve" sweater, and 
"aubergine" cardigan, and they all match. Not only that, they nearly 
match the "ultramarine" thread that started all this!!

Suzi 

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From: "Anne Moeller" <ladyanne@quik.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:18:26 -0500
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Status: RO



>I'm American, as well, and, like Patty, always thought of "ultramarine" as
>a
>slightly greenish darkish blue (like a bright navy with a hint of green to
>it).  If I remember to put "aubergine" through my mental translation
>program, and think "oh, yeah...that's equivalent to eggplant," I wouldn't
>think of it as anything but a really strong, dark purple.


These are the descriptions I am familiar with

Anne

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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

At 15:27 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>Just checked my small dictionary - ultramarine was named because the
>pigment came from over the sea, not because it looked like the sea as I
>had thought, so there was an ultramarine blue, an ultramarine purple &
>even an ultramarine yellow.
>
>Patty

Oh, now I'm really confused - I think my olours come from paints like 
others have mentioned. (Ultramarine being blue like lapis lazuli!)

Suzi


>At 14:58 26/01/2007, you wrote:
> >American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> >for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
> >
> >Patty
> >
>
>Could be - I was old enough to be this lady's mother. According to my
>small dictionary - too lazy to heave out the O.E.D. - ultramarine is
>a blue pigment. The thread I bought was not blue!
>
> > >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a
>dark
> > >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> > >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> > >pinkish-purple.
> >
> >I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> >aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> >they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> >companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> >association she knew - I didn't!
> >
> >Suzi
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >
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Status: RO

Kate wrote:
>I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a dark
>purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>pinkish-purple.

I used to have a housemate who was a professional seamstress, and who got a lot of her business from weddings. She has a story of a bride who ordered her attendants' dresses in advance (as one does) and chose the color from a small color chip. When the dresses arrived, the bride _and_ the bridesmaids all said "Eeeeeeeuuuuuuwwwww!" because no one had really visualized the color correctly from that small sample, and the color was "aubergine" --exactly the dark, slightly greenish purple of an eggplant..... So my housemate got the job of making three bridesmaids' dresses in two weeks from some OTHER color. <grin>

She also commented that brides who intend to make their own dresses are the seamstress' best friend, because either they run out of time or they buy $50 per yard lace and are afraid to cut into it.

On the color descriptions angle, I know Penny Ladnier used to work on color names -- have you tried her website to see if any of her work is posted?

____________________________________________________________
0  Chris Laning
|  <claning@igc.org>
+  Davis, California
http://paternoster-row.org  -  http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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Status: RO

My husband does model wargaming, and I'm always entertained by the names 
of the paints, shaded specifically for the different armies' uniforms 
and camouflage designs.  "Israeli desert pink" is a favourite!

Jean

Ruth Anne Baumgartner <ruthanneb@mindspring.com> wrote
>"Ultramarine," like many other colors (magenta, Prussian blue, 
>"midnight blue," apricot, burnt sienna, ocher, even lavender), was 
>described definitively and permanently for me in my youth by my big 
>set of Crayola crayons. And Patty's description definitely squares 
>with Crayola.
>--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
>scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
>p.s. The Crayola color "flesh" has been long since re-named. Lucky, 
>that--I didn't know ANYBODY who was that color, but clearly it did 
>imply that dark-skinned people were an aberration as far as the color 
>of their "flesh" was concerned, and I'm glad that notion has been 
>obliterated! Significantly, though, I never can remember what the new 
>name is....
>
>On Jan 26, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:
>
>> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
>> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>>
>> Patty
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
>> To: Historical Costume
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>>
>> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Kate Bunting
>>> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>>>
>>>>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
>>>> Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
>>>> from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
>>>> names were often applied to the same old colors.
>>>
>>> I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a 
>>>dark
>>> purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>>> recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>>> pinkish-purple.
>>
>> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
>> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
>> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
>> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
>> association she knew - I didn't!
>>
>> Suzi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:47:22 -0500
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

That's probably because I, too, was imprinted by Crayola!

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Ruth Anne Baumgartner
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:50 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

"Ultramarine," like many other colors (magenta, Prussian blue,  
"midnight blue," apricot, burnt sienna, ocher, even lavender), was  
described definitively and permanently for me in my youth by my big  
set of Crayola crayons. And Patty's description definitely squares  
with Crayola.
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer
p.s. The Crayola color "flesh" has been long since re-named. Lucky,  
that--I didn't know ANYBODY who was that color, but clearly it did  
imply that dark-skinned people were an aberration as far as the color  
of their "flesh" was concerned, and I'm glad that notion has been  
obliterated! Significantly, though, I never can remember what the new  
name is....

On Jan 26, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

> American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national, thing?
>
> Patty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:22 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
>
> At 09:06 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>> Kate Bunting
>> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>>
>>>>> Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> 26/01/2007 02:58 >>> wrote:
>>> Bear in mind that the meanings of many Victorian color names changed
>>> from fashion season to fashion season; and also, different, trendier
>>> names were often applied to the same old colors.
>>
>> I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a  
>> dark
>> purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
>> recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
>> pinkish-purple.
>
> I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> association she knew - I didn't!
>
> Suzi
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
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Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
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Sorry to confuse the issue - it's just that the <word> ultramarine (not
the color) means beyond or on the other side of (ultra) the sea (marine)
so that a pigment or mineral (lapis) that came from afar might be called
ultramarine regardless of the color. We seem to have shortened
ultramarine blue to just ultramarine (maybe to correspond to infrared &
ultraviolet).

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Suzi Clarke
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:39 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help

At 15:27 26/01/2007, you wrote:
>Just checked my small dictionary - ultramarine was named because the
>pigment came from over the sea, not because it looked like the sea as I
>had thought, so there was an ultramarine blue, an ultramarine purple &
>even an ultramarine yellow.
>
>Patty

Oh, now I'm really confused - I think my olours come from paints like 
others have mentioned. (Ultramarine being blue like lapis lazuli!)

Suzi


>At 14:58 26/01/2007, you wrote:
> >American here - ultramarine was strong darkish slightly greenish blue
> >for me -when I was a girl - maybe a generational, not national,
thing?
> >
> >Patty
> >
>
>Could be - I was old enough to be this lady's mother. According to my
>small dictionary - too lazy to heave out the O.E.D. - ultramarine is
>a blue pigment. The thread I bought was not blue!
>
> > >I find this is still true. Here in the UK "aubergine" is usually a
>dark
> > >purple (the colour of what you Americans call eggplants), but in a
> > >recent catalogue I've seen the name applied to a lighter
> > >pinkish-purple.
> >
> >I was buying cotton thread yesterday, and the "mauve/purple/paler
> >aubergine" thread was called "Ultramarine." Now when I was a girl, as
> >they say, ultramarine was a strong darkish bright blue. My American
> >companion said that the purple-ish colour was a colour/name
> >association she knew - I didn't!
> >
> >Suzi
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: [h-cost] OT, but someone might be interested...
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Hi folks!

The animation studio I work for is hosting a short film competition, for both live action and animation. We're a Canadian company - but the competition is open to international entrants.

If anyone is interested drop me a line and I'll send you the propaganda/details rather than spamming the list. :0)

Have a good weekend!

Sheridan P

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From: "Voncile W. Dudley" <wildthangstreasures@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT, but someone might be interested...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Please send...thanks.
  Lady Von

Sheridan <shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca> wrote:
  Hi folks!

The animation studio I work for is hosting a short film competition, for both live action and animation. We're a Canadian company - but the competition is open to international entrants.

If anyone is interested drop me a line and I'll send you the propaganda/details rather than spamming the list. :0)

Have a good weekend!

Sheridan P

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  Lady Von
   
  http://www.wildthangstreasures.com
   

 
---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
 Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:37:52 EST
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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In a message dated 1/26/2007 3:02:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
suzi@suziclarke.co.uk writes:

Here in  the U.K. I am wearing "amethyst" pants, "mauve" sweater, and 
"aubergine"  cardigan, and they all match. Not only that, they nearly 
match the  "ultramarine" thread that started all this!!

Suzi  



*************
 
LOL 
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Colour names
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I will be doing research of  fashion color usage for a long, long time.  I 
have made a database with my documentation of color names, trends, usage and 
definitions at www.fcdatabase.com .  You can view the bibliography and 
lists of the color names used for given years at no charge on the site.  The 
Fashion Color Database is part of our online Library.  To view the actual 
color name  database, you need to be a subscriber to our Library.   At this 
moment there are over 2,100 entries in the database.

As for dove gray or dove grey:

"Names of Colors and Their Meaning" Sears & Roebuck Catalog, 1929, defines 
dove gray as:
"gray with rose tint, one shade lighter than shadow."

Documentation for the color:

Dove-grey: ELIZABETHAN COSTUMES FROM 1550-1580

Dove-gray:
***STERN'S CATALOGUE OF FRENCH GOWNS, 1915
***Sears Catalog, 1929

Dove-color:
Feb. 1856: Peterson's Magazine, teenager girl's walking dress

I have the color used in many, many other publications but just don't have 
those in the database yet.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Hi again, I got such good suggestions on the bum roll, I thought I'd solicit 
some more ideas on the construction of the surcoat or outer gown (OG) on 
this outfit.  http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html

My quandaries with this OG are this.

1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder?  This is best seen in the first 
picture in the second row.

2.) How is the front of the OG made to lie so snuggly against her torso? 
(in the second and third pictures you can see a little gap between the coat 
and the bodice.)

3.)  How does it transition from the close fit in front to the all the extra 
fabric in back?

4.) What would it look like in back?  You can see extra fabric sweeping away 
from the shoulder/nape - is it constructed like a sack gown?

5.) Is the OG too long, hence the little fold of fabric at the waistline 
about an inch past the opening?

Love to hear your ideas -sorry for all the cross posts.

Sg 

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
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Saragrace Knauf wrote:

> Hi again, I got such good suggestions on the bum roll, I thought I'd solicit 
> some more ideas on the construction of the surcoat or outer gown (OG) on 
> this outfit.  http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html
> 
> My quandaries with this OG are this.
> 
> 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder?  This is best seen in the first 
> picture in the second row.

I honestly can't tell from that pic. :(

There's two versions of an overgown/surcoat in one of Janet Arnold's 
books. Margo's Historic Patterns offers a "comfort gown" pattern. Mantua 
Maker has a "Spanish loose gown". Reconstructing History offers both a 
"loose gown" and a "kirtle& gown" pattern. And I'm pretty sure Alcega 
had more than one version. Any of those should give you an idea of cut 
and construction.



Dawn


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
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Status: RO

Dear list,
I am soon finnishing the anglaise dress. Working on the skirts now.
Underskirt is made of 2 widths of silk taffeta 140 cm wide and i have 
calculated the same for the overskirt.
But as i have made my embroideries on the fronts, i would have to make a 
center back seam, wich i dont think would be propper.(on the overskirts)
So i figured to cut away some of the fabric on the embroidered pannels and 
then add a center back piece.
What do you think?
The entire dress is handstitched all together, except for the bone channels 
in the stays, the first gown made with handstitching alone. ever.

You can see some of the progress here:
 http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/anglaise.htm

Bjarne



Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
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Status: RO





> Saragrace Knauf wrote:
>
>> more ideas on the construction of the surcoat or outer gown (OG) on this 
>> outfit.  http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html
>>
>> My quandaries with this OG are this.
>>
>> 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder?  This is best seen in the 
>> first picture in the second row.


My two cents CDN?

I don't think this type of coat would have a falling band stlye of collar. 
I am of the belief that it would have a high 'half' collar, that would be 
full height in the back and disapear towards the front, to allow lacing of 
the ruff, or supportasse for a falling band collar of linen.  I have yet to 
see a falling band collar made of the same fabric as the garment, but I am 
open to being proven wrong on this one.

Both Norah Waugh's "Cut of Women's Clothes" and Janet Arnold's "Patterns of 
Fashion" have this type of surcoat pattern in them, from original 
garments...I would go with those two references first and foremost, beyond 
going and looking at the garments yourself.

I'll be cutting one of these soon for myself, I'd love to see finished 
garment pics of yours when you are done!

Kelly 

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Status: RO

I'm familiar with the common resources on the standard 16th century 
surcoat/loose gown  constructions and this isn't quite like that.  It could 
even be called a Schaube - note that it has it's own sleeves, not the very 
common large draping ones.

Algacea has a mourning gown that is similar in that it has a full back like 
this -it looks very much like a sack dress when made up, -it laces up under 
the 'sack' but has a full false front.

It may even be less of a construction as a "treatment" discussion.

I am trying to avoid giving any of my opinions on how it was made because I 
didn't want to influence any free thoughts.

I've not seen very many other paintings where the sitter is actually 
standing such that you can see the way the gown drapes in back.  If anyone 
has seen any paintings where the backs of such a gown can be seen - I'd sure 
like to see them.

There are many pictures in this period of a black over gown which fits 
tightly all the way around.

Thank you for your thougts.

Sg


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?


> There's two versions of an overgown/surcoat in one of Janet Arnold's
> books. Margo's Historic Patterns offers a "comfort gown" pattern. Mantua
> Maker has a "Spanish loose gown". Reconstructing History offers both a
> "loose gown" and a "kirtle& gown" pattern. And I'm pretty sure Alcega
> had more than one version. Any of those should give you an idea of cut
> and construction.
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 
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References: <000f01c74236$b1ee7350$8d43a150@CPQ21932199711>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:08 -0700
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Status: RO

The stays are just beautiful - as is the rest of the gown. Not being real 
familiar with the construction, of these gowns - why do you say the center 
back seam would be inappropriate - yet a center back panel would be okay?

Sg

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.


> Dear list,
> I am soon finnishing the anglaise dress. Working on the skirts now.
> Underskirt is made of 2 widths of silk taffeta 140 cm wide and i have
> calculated the same for the overskirt.
> But as i have made my embroideries on the fronts, i would have to make a
> center back seam, wich i dont think would be propper.(on the overskirts)
> So i figured to cut away some of the fabric on the embroidered pannels and
> then add a center back piece.
> What do you think?
> The entire dress is handstitched all together, except for the bone 
> channels
> in the stays, the first gown made with handstitching alone. ever.
>
> You can see some of the progress here:
>  http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/anglaise.htm
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
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From: "Diana Habra" <dch@inreach.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colour names
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:53:32 -0800
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Status: RO

Penny,

Thank you very much!  Your description matches what I thought but I needed
to validate my memory.  And between the bluish gray and the rosy gray I had,
the rosy one was a nicer color and better on the skin than the other one.

Thanks again,

Diana


--
www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"
 
"Be the change you want to see in the world"
--Ghandi
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:59 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Colour names


As for dove gray or dove grey:

"Names of Colors and Their Meaning" Sears & Roebuck Catalog, 1929, defines 
dove gray as:
"gray with rose tint, one shade lighter than shadow." 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
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Status: RO

Well it is because the bodice has a sharp v point in the bodice at the back, 
and i thoaght it would look better, if the skirt dont have a seam 
there..........
dont know?

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.


> The stays are just beautiful - as is the rest of the gown. Not being real 
> familiar with the construction, of these gowns - why do you say the center 
> back seam would be inappropriate - yet a center back panel would be okay?
>
> Sg
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:15 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
>
>
>> Dear list,
>> I am soon finnishing the anglaise dress. Working on the skirts now.
>> Underskirt is made of 2 widths of silk taffeta 140 cm wide and i have
>> calculated the same for the overskirt.
>> But as i have made my embroideries on the fronts, i would have to make a
>> center back seam, wich i dont think would be propper.(on the overskirts)
>> So i figured to cut away some of the fabric on the embroidered pannels 
>> and
>> then add a center back piece.
>> What do you think?
>> The entire dress is handstitched all together, except for the bone 
>> channels
>> in the stays, the first gown made with handstitching alone. ever.
>>
>> You can see some of the progress here:
>>  http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/anglaise.htm
>>
>> Bjarne
>>
>>
>>
>> Leif og Bjarne Drews
>> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>>
>> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
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Status: RO

Saragrace Knauf wrote:
> http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html
>
> 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder?  This is best seen in the first 
> picture in the second row.
>   
I believe so, yes-- I think it's probably cut with a raised neckline at 
the front and a half collar band at the back.  Sorry, I realise that's 
not a very illuminating explanation-- I think Janet Arnold has a good 
description and pics, though.
> 2.) How is the front of the OG made to lie so snuggly against her torso? 
> (in the second and third pictures you can see a little gap between the coat 
> and the bodice.)
>   
Possibly a combination of pins and artistic license...
> 3.)  How does it transition from the close fit in front to the all the extra 
> fabric in back?
>
> 4.) What would it look like in back?  You can see extra fabric sweeping away 
> from the shoulder/nape - is it constructed like a sack gown?
>   
I believe it's done by pleating the back fabric. I'm afraid I don't have 
any resources for this at hand, but I think there may be examples of 
both a yoke section with pleated fabric below, and of the fullness of 
the back simply pleated and stitched flat over the shoulder area.


-- 
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Habeo metrum - musicamque,
hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
-Georgeus Gershwinus
-----------------------------


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:28:22 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
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Status: RO

At 17:56 27/01/2007, you wrote:
>Well it is because the bodice has a sharp v point in the bodice at 
>the back, and i thoaght it would look better, if the skirt dont have 
>a seam there..........
>dont know?
>
>Bjarne

There are three dresses in Janet Arnold with similar backs, and at 
least two, if not all three, have centre back seams. It actually 
makes life easier if you are splitting the fabric to hang down inside.

Suzi

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From: "Sharon Henderson" <henderson.sharon@gmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: question about robe anglaise
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Status: RO

Bjarne,

Can I just say that your work is absolutely GORGEOUS????  WOW!

What a beautiful project this is shaping up to be!  Thank you for
sharing the link--I am very inspired!  (I'm inspired by a lot here,
but lately have wanted to make a nice new gown in something different
for me... *g*)

Just beautiful.  I look forward to seeing the finished product!

Meli,
Fairfax, VA
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Status: RO

Your welcome Diana.  I am sorry for not responding sooner.  I have had a 
very busy week.

Penny Ladnier,
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumelibrary.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
www.costumeencyclopedia.com 

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Status: RO

Dear Suzi,
This is really embarrasing for me, why on earth didnt i look in my books, 
didnt think of that.
Well it must be my aestaetic, who told me not to.
But off cause it is easyer to split down the skirt at the v point when there 
is a seam.

Thanks and blush

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.


> At 17:56 27/01/2007, you wrote:
>>Well it is because the bodice has a sharp v point in the bodice at the 
>>back, and i thoaght it would look better, if the skirt dont have a seam 
>>there..........
>>dont know?
>>
>>Bjarne
>
> There are three dresses in Janet Arnold with similar backs, and at least 
> two, if not all three, have centre back seams. It actually makes life 
> easier if you are splitting the fabric to hang down inside.
>
> Suzi
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: color names
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Status: RO


I din't know anything about the Color Association, but I'm very familiar
witht the Color Marketing Group. They are a hilarious bunch who call
themselves "forecasters." They claim to go around the world forecasting
color trends. Well, they DO go around thew world, it's the forecasting they
claim . The forecasters travel around looking at the colors of what they
thimk will be big design trends -- Asian stuff, for instance, or high-tech
gadgets. Then they compile lists of colors found in these things and name
them all. Then all the car companies, furniture companies, etc., buy the
lists because if you produce things that don't go with everyone else's
colors, yours won't sell. The thing is that these forecasts are for several
years out, not for the next year, so they have to stretch hard to do their
forecasts -- or so they believe.

I've always thought that they were very a very sophisticated group of
extortionists, and maybe they are, but talk to any of them and  you will
find they are vehement about their mission and their "forecasting"
abilities. They really seem to believe they are divining trends, not just
choosing whatever they feel like (which is what I think they do).

I also once interviewed someone from the Pantone Institute, which is run by
the Pantone company that puts together formulas for inks. She told me, very
seriously, that green was the first color to appear in the universe.

Those color people are a funny lot!

Gail Finke

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names
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Status: RO

 
In a message dated 1/28/2007 9:33:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gailscott@eos.net writes:

Those  color people are a funny lot!



********************
 
Thank you! As if you can forecast color trends years in advance. It, I  
suppose, never occurs to them that they themselves and their so called forecasts  
actually cause the color to become the latest trend....by projecting it will 
be.  The fashion industry is listening, y'know. And of course some colors are  
safe, like say black. When has...or will...black ever be out of style? I  
remember in the 80's purple was supposed to be all the rage. Lots of clothes  were 
made up in purple and I'm sure are still in warehouses to this day,  unsold.
 
About the only thing, I think, one could predict is if bright  saturated 
tones will be in or muted colors. But for individual colors...please!  To each his 
own.
 
Of course scientifically, no one even knows if we see the same colors as  
others. My brain interprets a certain wave length of electro-magnetic energy as  
green, but there's no way of knowing if your brain interprets it the same. We  
both call whatever we see at that wave length green, but do we "see" in our  
mind's eye the same thing?
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Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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Status: RO

I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right look.) 
I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it just 
happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am in the 
process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in the actual 
picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27

Annnnnyyyway - the question:


I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is 
not done in time for the presentation.

The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves are 
attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all the 
tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - random 
pieces of fabric.

Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. But 
many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original obviously 
did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.

What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!

Sg

 

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Subject: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.
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Status: RO

Hi Bjarne!

I've recently done a c1776 robe anglaise, which is ~20 years before your dress, so take my references with a grain of salt. 

>From a brief flip though my documentation binder, it seems very common to have side-back seams in the skirt - which fall approximately mid-way between the side seam and the CB area. 
(Center back seams for the skirt were unusual, but I did find one example.) It is my conjecture that the standard skirt construction was 5 fabric widths: 2 for the front and side and one full width for the center back. 

Here are the useful sources I had: 

1) The closed robe in _Fitting and Proper_ has 2 side/side-back seams on each side of the skirt between the CB and the seam where on an open robe the front opening would start. Note, this dress, unlike yours, has the CB of the bodice in one piece with the CB skirt panel.

2) The open robe anglaise on page 24 of _Fitting and Proper_ also has 2 seams in the skirt between the CF opening and the CB. Again, note that this dress, unlike yours, has the CB of the bodice in one piece with the CB skirt panel.

3) 1770-85 Polonaise gown on page 37 of _Patterns of Fashion_ - has separate CB bodice and skirt panels.  This is the only instance I found with a CB seam in the skirt. 

4) None of the robe anglaise with separate back bodice and back skirt panels (for  the 1776 era) in _Costume in Detail_ have center back seams - Bradfield's seam line notations imply that their construction is the same 5 panel skirt construction described above. 

5) The 1775-85 dress on page 40 of _Patterns of Fashion_ also has the 5 panel construction without CB skirt seam.

Hope this helps,
	-s

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BAY133-DAV5FA4F04C3DE2225E218E1D2A00@phx.gbl>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:40:09 +0100
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Status: RO

Dear Saragrace,
How wonderfull it comes by. I vote for this:
http://saragrace.us/images/GoldenAge/MainGown/images/IMG_0612_jpg.jpg
Symmetry is so important with this, so i think that is the best sollution.

Bjarne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "TheRenaissanceTailor" 
<TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; <thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:29 PM
Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?


> I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
> is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
> (barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right 
> look.) I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it 
> just happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am 
> in the process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in 
> the actual picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27
>
> Annnnnyyyway - the question:
>
>
> I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is 
> not done in time for the presentation.
>
> The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves 
> are attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all 
> the tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - 
> random pieces of fabric.
>
> Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. 
> But many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original 
> obviously did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
>
> What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!
>
> Sg
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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Status: RO

I'm going to second Bjarne's vote; I like these tabs the best, and think 
that the bodice needs tabs.

Susan in Austin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?


> Dear Saragrace,
> How wonderfull it comes by. I vote for this:
> http://saragrace.us/images/GoldenAge/MainGown/images/IMG_0612_jpg.jpg
> Symmetry is so important with this, so i think that is the best sollution.
>
> Bjarne
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
> To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "TheRenaissanceTailor" 
> <TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; <thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:29 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
>
>
>> I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
>> is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
>> (barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right 
>> look.) I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it 
>> just happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am 
>> in the process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in 
>> the actual picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27
>>
>> Annnnnyyyway - the question:
>>
>>
>> I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is 
>> not done in time for the presentation.
>>
>> The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves 
>> are attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all 
>> the tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - 
>> random pieces of fabric.
>>
>> Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. 
>> But many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original 
>> obviously did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
>>
>> What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!
>>
>> Sg
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:53:47 +0000
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] Re: color names (getting OT)
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Status: RO

Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote
>
>
>I also once interviewed someone from the Pantone Institute, which is run by
>the Pantone company that puts together formulas for inks. She told me, very
>seriously, that green was the first color to appear in the universe.
>
>Those color people are a funny lot!
>
>Gail Finke
>

I know there are linguistic studies that aim to show the cognitive 
importance, if you like, of different colours by the order in which 
languages develop them.  You have to work on words for colours that are 
not linked to the description of an object - orange or aubergine, for 
example, just say "the colour of that thing".  But all languages have 
words for light and dark, black and white.  I'm pretty sure the next one 
is red, then green and blue interchangeably.  So if a language has a 
word for either green or blue, it must also have a word for red - if it 
has no word for red, it can't have a word for green or blue.  I seem to 
remember it goes a bit random after that.

So green may have been the first colour to appear, but red is the most 
important one to identify and tell your friends about!

Actually .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants? ;-)

Jean


-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@ntw.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names (getting OT)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:00:05 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Did anyone else hear the story on NPR yesterday about color?  
Apparently a lot of cultures don't have more than 2 or 3 words for 
different colors.

Sylrog

On Jan 28, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Jean Waddie wrote:

> Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote
>>
>>
>> I also once interviewed someone from the Pantone Institute, which is 
>> run by
>> the Pantone company that puts together formulas for inks. She told 
>> me, very
>> seriously, that green was the first color to appear in the universe.
>>
>> Those color people are a funny lot!
>>
>> Gail Finke
>>
>
> I know there are linguistic studies that aim to show the cognitive 
> importance, if you like, of different colours by the order in which 
> languages develop them.  You have to work on words for colours that 
> are not linked to the description of an object - orange or aubergine, 
> for example, just say "the colour of that thing".  But all languages 
> have words for light and dark, black and white.  I'm pretty sure the 
> next one is red, then green and blue interchangeably.  So if a 
> language has a word for either green or blue, it must also have a word 
> for red - if it has no word for red, it can't have a word for green or 
> blue.  I seem to remember it goes a bit random after that.
>
> So green may have been the first colour to appear, but red is the most 
> important one to identify and tell your friends about!
>
> Actually .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants? ;-)
>
> Jean
>
>
> -- 
> Jean Waddie
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From: "zelda crusher" <laswa@hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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Status: RO

I like the original tabs.  Face it, the whole look is fussy, so it fits.

Laurie


>From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>,        "TheRenaissanceTailor" 
><TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>,        
><thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:30 -0700
>
>I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
>is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta
>(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right look.)
>I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it just
>happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am in the
>process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in the actual
>picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27
>
>Annnnnyyyway - the question:
>
>
>I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is
>not done in time for the presentation.
>
>The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves are
>attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all the
>tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - random
>pieces of fabric.
>
>Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. 
>But
>many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original 
>obviously
>did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
>
>What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!
>
>Sg
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: MaggiRos <maggiros@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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Status: RO

Add my vote for tabs. It just looks more complete.

MaggiRos


--- zelda crusher <laswa@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I like the original tabs.  Face it, the whole look
> is fussy, so it fits.
> 
> Laurie
> 
> 
> >From: "Saragrace Knauf" <wickedfrau@msn.com>
> >Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> >To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>,       
> "TheRenaissanceTailor" 
> ><TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>,        
> ><thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
> >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:30 -0700
> >
> >I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice
> http://tinyurl.com/343la7
> >is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from
> flocked fake silk taffeta
> >(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found
> to give the right look.)
> >I found it at the last minute about a week ago at
> Jo Annes - it just
> >happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt
> almost exactly. I am in the
> >process of having another embroidered to match the
> embroidery in the actual
> >picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27
> >
> >Annnnnyyyway - the question:
> >
> >
> >I may have to use the practice bodice if the other
> doesn't work out or is
> >not done in time for the presentation.
> >
> >The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to
> which all the leaves are
> >attached. I did the same here and then experimented
> with no tabs, all the
> >tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made
> from "cabbage" - random
> >pieces of fabric.
> >
> >Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because
> it looks fussy to me. 
> >But
> >many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs,
> and the original 
> >obviously
> >did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
> >
> >What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!
> >
> >Sg
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Check out all that glitters with the MSN
> Entertainment Guide to the Academy 
> Awards®  
>
http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Subject: [h-cost] The Tabs Have it!  Was: To Tab or not to Tab?
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Sounds like the symmetrical tabs have it.
Thanks!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MaggiRos" <maggiros@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?


> Add my vote for tabs. It just looks more complete.
> 
> MaggiRos
> 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy4@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]Colour names, was Need Help
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At 12:13 PM 1/26/2007, you wrote:
>So my housemate got the job of making three bridesmaids' dresses in 
>two weeks from some OTHER color. <grin>


I hope she charged them a hefty rush fee!

Dianne



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names (getting OT)
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In a message dated 1/28/2007 2:56:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk writes:

Actually  .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants?  ;-)



And a sky and an ocean before there was any life. Blue  anyone?
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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On Sunday 28 January 2007 3:01 pm, zelda crusher wrote:
> I like the original tabs.  Face it, the whole look is fussy, so it fits.

I'm with the rest.  The inspiration portrait had tabs, and I think the look 
would be slightly off without them; it's just a naturally "fussy" look.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point
of doubtful sanity."  --Robert Frost


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names
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> Of course scientifically, no one even knows if we see the same colors as
> others. My brain interprets a certain wave length of electro-magnetic 
> energy as
> green, but there's no way of knowing if your brain interprets it the same. 
> We
> both call whatever we see at that wave length green, but do we "see" in 
> our
> mind's eye the same thing?


Oh, you bet!  You should hear me go round and round with my daughter... 
"it's green"
"no, it's blue"
"green"
"blue"
GREEN
BLUE!

Usually, it's not even one of those wishy-washy turquoise or aqua colors, 
but we both see them differently. Neither of us is color blind, either.

As for color vision itself, I've read that humans are able to distinguish 
more finely between shades of green than for any other color. The reason 
postulated was that as evolving herbivores/gatherers recognizing shades of 
green was more important for survival than other colors.  Individuals with 
finely developed green discrimination presumably ate better.

Denise
Iowa 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names [Waaaaay OT]
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In a message dated 1/28/2007 7:06:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
landofoz@netins.net writes:

Usually,  it's not even one of those wishy-washy turquoise or aqua colors, 
but we  both see them differently. Neither of us is color blind, either.

As for  color vision itself, I've read that humans are able to distinguish 
more  finely between shades of green than for any other color. The reason  
postulated was that as evolving herbivores/gatherers recognizing shades of  
green was more important for survival than other colors.  Individuals  with 
finely developed green discrimination presumably ate  better.





Interesting.
 
I was just reading about how the early mammals that survived after the  
demise of the dinosaurs and evolved into us [creationists....grow up!] were  
nocturnal and therefore had not so great color vision. More than likely, not  great 
vision at all, like many nocturnal mammals today. Indeed many mammals  today 
have bad eyesight. Your dog or cat see in very limited ways. Our  color vision 
had to be "regained". Birds on the other hand did not have to go  thru this 
evolutionary change since they more than likely came from dinosaurs  that 
survived.
 
Anyway, we as humans have 3 types of cones, the nerve endings that see  
color. [rods see contrast] Nocturnal animals sometime have only one or two.  [but 
lots of rods!] Simplified, we have a blue cone, a green one and a red  one. The 
gene for the blue cone is on our 7th chromosome so everybody gets  
one....well two, one from each parent. But the red and green genes are  right next to 
each other on the x chromosome. And actually the red one "sees"  into the green 
area and the green one "sees" into the red. It is thought one  derives from 
the other during our evolution...which helps explain why they are  next to each 
other and see into each other's areas. We see hues by the  interaction of the 
3 cones. All 3 are always involved. Theoretically, Richard  Dawkins suggests, 
you could electrically stimulate just say the blue cone and  see a super pure 
blue not to be seen in nature.
Cool!
Also, birds and I think animals like octopi and squid and some  insects have 
4 different cones...blue, red, green, and....what? These  creatures can see 
very well indeed
 
Also, there are 2 ways to be color-blind. The green cone or the red  cone can 
be improperly copied and because the y chromosome in the male has no  back up 
pair, like women do on their other x chromosome, the man is  
color-blind...red-green color-blind. The other way is for 2 red cones to appear  or 2 green. 
Again with no back up pair, the man is again color-blind. This  2 of the same 
kind is really rare I think. Women who are as unfortunate to  have 2 faulty 
sets of Red/green cones on each x chromosome will be  color-blind.
 
I love science!
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From: Lauren Walker <lauren.walker@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names [Waaaaay OT]
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 21:03:05 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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On Jan 28, 2007, at 8:26 PM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/28/2007 7:06:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> landofoz@netins.net writes:
>
> Usually,  it's not even one of those wishy-washy turquoise or aqua  
> colors,
> but we  both see them differently. Neither of us is color blind,  
> either.
>
> As for  color vision itself, I've read that humans are able to  
> distinguish
> more  finely between shades of green than for any other color. The  
> reason
> postulated was that as evolving herbivores/gatherers recognizing  
> shades of
> green was more important for survival than other colors.   
> Individuals  with
> finely developed green discrimination presumably ate  better.
>

I wonder if that's why shades of green seem to clash more than any  
other? Two blues that don't match can often look okay together; but  
the greens drive me crazy, because so many look terrible side-by- 
side. Is it just because we can see more fine variations?

Lauren
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But no people to make words before plants.
=20
Patty

________________________________

From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of Jean Waddie
Sent: Sun 1/28/2007 2:53 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Re: color names (getting OT)



Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote
>
>
>I also once interviewed someone from the Pantone Institute, which is =
run by
>the Pantone company that puts together formulas for inks. She told me, =
very
>seriously, that green was the first color to appear in the universe.
>
>Those color people are a funny lot!
>
>Gail Finke
>

I know there are linguistic studies that aim to show the cognitive
importance, if you like, of different colours by the order in which
languages develop them.  You have to work on words for colours that are
not linked to the description of an object - orange or aubergine, for
example, just say "the colour of that thing".  But all languages have
words for light and dark, black and white.  I'm pretty sure the next one
is red, then green and blue interchangeably.  So if a language has a
word for either green or blue, it must also have a word for red - if it
has no word for red, it can't have a word for green or blue.  I seem to
remember it goes a bit random after that.

So green may have been the first colour to appear, but red is the most
important one to identify and tell your friends about!

Actually .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants? ;-)

Jean


--
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And I once had a co-worker (male) who was both red-green AND 
blue-yellow color blind.  We had to come up with creative ways to 
describe things, as he pretty much saw things in greyscale.  His wife 
labeled all his clothes so things would match, and he wore lots of 
neutrals (black and khaki).

Sandy
At 08:03 PM 1/28/2007, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:26:01 EST
>From: AlbertCat@aol.com
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names [Waaaaay OT]
>
>Simplified, we have a blue cone, a green one and a red  one. The
>gene for the blue cone is on our 7th chromosome so everybody gets
>one....well two, one from each parent. But the red and green genes 
>are  right next to
>each other on the x chromosome. And actually the red one 
>"sees"  into the green
>area and the green one "sees" into the red.  We see hues by 
>the  interaction of the
>3 cones. All 3 are always involved.

--snip--

>  Also, there are 2 ways to be color-blind. The green cone or the 
> red  cone can
>be improperly copied and because the y chromosome in the male has no  back up
>pair, like women do on their other x chromosome, the man is
>color-blind...red-green color-blind. The other way is for 2 red 
>cones to appear  or 2 green.
>Again with no back up pair, the man is again color-blind. This  2 of the same
>kind is really rare I think. Women who are as unfortunate to  have 2 faulty
>sets of Red/green cones on each x chromosome will be  color-blind.
>
>I love science!

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: color names [Waaaaay OT]
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:48:07 -0800
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Status: RO

Some very few, (only women), are able to see not only the normal colors,
using red-blue-green cones, but an "additional" color cone is in their eyes.
This enables them to see different shades of green. To most of us, two
colors of green would be identical, but to them, the two would appear very
different. Maybe you are one of those "4 color" people. 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Lauren Walker
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:03 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color names [Waaaaay OT]



On Jan 28, 2007, at 8:26 PM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/28/2007 7:06:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> landofoz@netins.net writes:
>
> Usually,  it's not even one of those wishy-washy turquoise or aqua  
> colors,
> but we  both see them differently. Neither of us is color blind,  
> either.
>
> As for  color vision itself, I've read that humans are able to  
> distinguish
> more  finely between shades of green than for any other color. The  
> reason
> postulated was that as evolving herbivores/gatherers recognizing  
> shades of
> green was more important for survival than other colors.   
> Individuals  with
> finely developed green discrimination presumably ate  better.
>

I wonder if that's why shades of green seem to clash more than any  
other? Two blues that don't match can often look okay together; but  
the greens drive me crazy, because so many look terrible side-by- 
side. Is it just because we can see more fine variations?

Lauren
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Subject: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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Status: RO

I'm trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th 
century man's cravat. I've got plenty of sources that say they tied 
around the neck in various ways, but not much else. Does anyone know how 
wide and how long the cloth is? Would it be wide enough to fold one or 
more times, or would it be worn as a single thickness? Did they wrap 
from the back and tie in front like a scarf, or were they wrapped across 
the throat in front, around the back, and then tied in front?

Does anyone know of any photos of extant cravats other than the one in 
_Cut of Men's Clothes_? (And I think that one is just the lace ends, 
anyway, it looks far too short to tie around anything, but there's no 
indication of size or scale, so who can tell.)




Dawn


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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In a message dated 1/29/2007 2:19:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dawn@reddawn.net writes:

I'm  trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th 
century  man's cravat. 


************
 
It is my understanding that it is a square of silk, which is then folded in  
various ways on the diagonal over a stock to support it, which is boned  
canvas or leather. This is where the wrapped up to the chin and bottom  of the ears 
look comes from. The pointed ends of this square folded on the  bias is what 
you see tied at the front of the neck....or sometimes they  are tied or just 
crossed in front and brought to the braces and pinned  there....under the 
waistcoat of course so you never see that. I think in some  instances they can even 
be brought around under the arms and tied in the  back! So the length can be 
quite long....it would equal the diagonal of the  square. If you take a square 
yard, you get quite a long length on the diagonal  from corner to corner. But 
it could even be bigger than a yard.
As time progresses the folding changes to be more of a long strip [like in  
the 1840's] and then actually it is cut as a long bias strip....or on the  
straight like a ribbon by the 1860's.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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Status: RO

At 19:56 29/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 1/29/2007 2:19:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>dawn@reddawn.net writes:
>
>I'm  trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th
>century  man's cravat.
>
>
>************
>
>It is my understanding that it is a square of silk, which is then folded in
>various ways on the diagonal over a stock to support it, which is boned
>canvas or leather. This is where the wrapped up to the chin and 
>bottom  of the ears
>look comes from. The pointed ends of this square folded on the  bias is what
>you see tied at the front of the neck....or sometimes they  are tied or just
>crossed in front and brought to the braces and pinned  there....under the
>waistcoat of course so you never see that. I think in 
>some  instances they can even
>be brought around under the arms and tied in the  back! So the length can be
>quite long....it would equal the diagonal of the  square. If you 
>take a square
>yard, you get quite a long length on the diagonal  from corner to corner. But
>it could even be bigger than a yard.
>As time progresses the folding changes to be more of a long strip [like in
>the 1840's] and then actually it is cut as a long bias strip....or on the
>straight like a ribbon by the 1860's.

No, no  that is late 18th or early 19th century cravats. Early 18th 
century are just a length of fabric, usually about 60" long and as 
wide as you choose, in a very fine muslin or linen. You wrap it 
round, usually once only, tie in a loose knot, and often poke one end 
through a buttonhole, known as a Steinkirk, after a battle.

Suzi

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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In a message dated 1/29/2007 5:15:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
suzi@suziclarke.co.uk writes:

No,  no  that is late 18th or early 19th century  cravats.


Oops!
 
I was skimming and just saw the "18" and thought 1800's. And it never  
occurred to me to call 18th century stocks a "cravat"...though I suppose that's  OK.
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From: N Kipar <marquesate@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

The steenkirk was particularly fashionable in the 1690s but I wouldn't wear the cravat like that after 1700 and certainly not for the War of the Spanish Succession.

Choose as fine a linen as you can, roll hem it, and choose a width and length that is comfortable. Preferrably folded lengthwise. You might also want to think about possible shaping of the ends, and of course needle lace. You'll find a few examples on my site:

http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/galleries_1700e.html

http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/galleries_1700p.html

Nicole

----- Original Message ----
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, 29 January, 2007 8:26:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats


At 19:56 29/01/2007, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 1/29/2007 2:19:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>dawn@reddawn.net writes:
>
>I'm  trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th
>century  man's cravat.
>
>
>************
>
>It is my understanding that it is a square of silk, which is then folded in
>various ways on the diagonal over a stock to support it, which is boned
>canvas or leather. This is where the wrapped up to the chin and 
>bottom  of the ears
>look comes from. The pointed ends of this square folded on the  bias is what
>you see tied at the front of the neck....or sometimes they  are tied or just
>crossed in front and brought to the braces and pinned  there....under the
>waistcoat of course so you never see that. I think in 
>some  instances they can even
>be brought around under the arms and tied in the  back! So the length can be
>quite long....it would equal the diagonal of the  square. If you 
>take a square
>yard, you get quite a long length on the diagonal  from corner to corner. But
>it could even be bigger than a yard.
>As time progresses the folding changes to be more of a long strip [like in
>the 1840's] and then actually it is cut as a long bias strip....or on the
>straight like a ribbon by the 1860's.

No, no  that is late 18th or early 19th century cravats. Early 18th 
century are just a length of fabric, usually about 60" long and as 
wide as you choose, in a very fine muslin or linen. You wrap it 
round, usually once only, tie in a loose knot, and often poke one end 
through a buttonhole, known as a Steinkirk, after a battle.

Suzi

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: color 
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Status: RO

Jean wrote:

> 
> I know there are linguistic studies that aim to show the cognitive
> importance, if you like, of different colours by the order in which
> languages develop them.  You have to work on words for colours that are
> not linked to the description of an object - orange or aubergine, for
> example, just say "the colour of that thing".  But all languages have
> words for light and dark, black and white.  I'm pretty sure the next one
> is red, then green and blue interchangeably.  So if a language has a
> word for either green or blue, it must also have a word for red - if it
> has no word for red, it can't have a word for green or blue.  I seem to
> remember it goes a bit random after that.
> 
> So green may have been the first colour to appear, but red is the most
> important one to identify and tell your friends about!
> 
> Actually .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants? ;-)
> 
> Jean

Linguistic studies aside, the woman was talking about which color was
created (or evolved) first and she said it was green because of plants. No
color before plants. Even if you don't think of black and white as colors, I
thought that yellow must have come first (sunlight). And of course as you
say red and orange -- fire, volcanoes, etc. But she was adamant on green.

Gail


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Status: RO

>I once had a co-worker (male) who was both red-green AND
>blue-yellow color blind.  We had to come up with creative ways to

So's my father, the fine arts photography major. My mom always
approved his suit & tie selections.  You could always tell when my
folks were having a tiff.  Daddy would come home from work badly
matched!

>describe things, as he pretty much saw things in greyscale.  His wife
>labeled all his clothes so things would match, and he wore lots of
>neutrals (black and khaki).

My very good friend who is blind uses a system we invented for her
clothes.  We call it GrrMonsters (after the old children's line -
GrrAnimals).  We just use all ribbons in varying widths and textures
(pico edge, grosgrain, satin, double face satin). So, all pico-edge
1/4" ribbon GrrMonsters go together. The monster mostly indicates the
color scheme.   Mummy is those neutrals & beiges.  Kraken is the deep
sea colors like aquamarine.  Nyarlathotep is jungle green & coral.

Now to add some h-costume content:  I finally got pictures of my early
Stuart gown and the crazy wig when I wore it this weekend.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/hysteria95126/album  Look for the Stuart
gown album.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
CinBarnes@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color 
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In a message dated 1/29/2007 7:39:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gailscott@eos.net writes:

first  and she said it was green because of plants


I believe the earliest form of chlorophyll was  red.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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I don't respond on here very often but I personally like it better with the tabs.
 Teena R.


----- Original Message ----
From: Saragrace Knauf <wickedfrau@msn.com>
To: h-costume <h-costume@indra.com>; TheRenaissanceTailor <TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:29:30 AM
Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?


I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right look.) 
I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it just 
happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am in the 
process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in the actual 
picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27

Annnnnyyyway - the question:


I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is 
not done in time for the presentation.

The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves are 
attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all the 
tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - random 
pieces of fabric.

Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. But 
many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original obviously 
did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.

What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!

Sg



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From: "David S. Mallinak" <dragonmatchlock@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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Status: RO

Dawn wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th 
> century man's cravat. I've got plenty of sources that say they tied 
> around the neck in various ways, but not much else. Does anyone know 
> how wide and how long the cloth is? Would it be wide enough to fold 
> one or more times, or would it be worn as a single thickness? Did they 
> wrap from the back and tie in front like a scarf, or were they wrapped 
> across the throat in front, around the back, and then tied in front?
>
> Does anyone know of any photos of extant cravats other than the one in 
> _Cut of Men's Clothes_? (And I think that one is just the lace ends, 
> anyway, it looks far too short to tie around anything, but there's no 
> indication of size or scale, so who can tell.)
It has been a long time since I read it, but its:
    Collars, Stocks, and Cravat
    by Doriece Colle
    Rodale Press, Inc. 1972
    72840 005 7

Your humble and obedient servant,
David S Mallinak

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> Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. But 
> many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original obviously 
> did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
> 
> What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!

They're stupid, but leave them on.  It looks even more stupid without 
them, IMHO.
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: color 
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From: "Rickard, Patty  " <RICKARPA@muc.edu>
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Are there colors if there's nothing to "see" them? No oxygen before =
plants. (Theology aside - and back to the tree falling in the forest =
making or not making a sound)
=20
Patty

________________________________

From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of Gail & Scott Finke
Sent: Mon 1/29/2007 7:20 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Re: color=20



Jean wrote:

>
> I know there are linguistic studies that aim to show the cognitive
> importance, if you like, of different colours by the order in which
> languages develop them.  You have to work on words for colours that =
are
> not linked to the description of an object - orange or aubergine, for
> example, just say "the colour of that thing".  But all languages have
> words for light and dark, black and white.  I'm pretty sure the next =
one
> is red, then green and blue interchangeably.  So if a language has a
> word for either green or blue, it must also have a word for red - if =
it
> has no word for red, it can't have a word for green or blue.  I seem =
to
> remember it goes a bit random after that.
>
> So green may have been the first colour to appear, but red is the most
> important one to identify and tell your friends about!
>
> Actually .... wouldn't there be volcanoes before plants? ;-)
>
> Jean

Linguistic studies aside, the woman was talking about which color was
created (or evolved) first and she said it was green because of plants. =
No
color before plants. Even if you don't think of black and white as =
colors, I
thought that yellow must have come first (sunlight). And of course as =
you
say red and orange -- fire, volcanoes, etc. But she was adamant on =
green.

Gail


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Wouldn't that be hemoglobin?

________________________________

From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com on behalf of AlbertCat@aol.com
Sent: Mon 1/29/2007 10:21 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color=20




In a message dated 1/29/2007 7:39:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
gailscott@eos.net writes:

first  and she said it was green because of plants


I believe the earliest form of chlorophyll was  red.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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Dear Dawn.
If you have a nice lace, you can make a short cravat wrapped arround a 
necktie or stock.
They used to love needle laces in those days, especially venetian 
needlelaces, wich are rather thick and stiff. Sew the lace to a piece of 
linnen, same width as your lace and then catch it over a longer necktie.
Do you understand my meaning?


Bjarne

.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats


> I'm trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early 18th 
> century man's cravat. I've got plenty of sources that say they tied around 
> the neck in various ways, but not much else. Does anyone know how wide and 
> how long the cloth is? Would it be wide enough to fold one or more times, 
> or would it be worn as a single thickness? Did they wrap from the back and 
> tie in front like a scarf, or were they wrapped across the throat in 
> front, around the back, and then tied in front?
>
> Does anyone know of any photos of extant cravats other than the one in 
> _Cut of Men's Clothes_? (And I think that one is just the lace ends, 
> anyway, it looks far too short to tie around anything, but there's no 
> indication of size or scale, so who can tell.)
>
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
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> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
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I like the tabs too. At first I thought I preferred the "cabbage" tabs, but on reflection the matching tabs seem better, although a little dark because of the fabric design. Yes, fussy, but in a really interesting--you could almost say "witty"--way!
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

-----Original Message-----
>From: Teena Robertson <childishwhims@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jan 29, 2007 10:38 PM
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
>
>I don't respond on here very often but I personally like it better with the tabs.
> Teena R.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Saragrace Knauf <wickedfrau@msn.com>
>To: h-costume <h-costume@indra.com>; TheRenaissanceTailor <TheRenaissanceTailor@yahoogroups.com>; thefrazzledfrau@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:29:30 AM
>Subject: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
>
>
>I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
>is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
>(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right look.) 
>I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it just 
>happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am in the 
>process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in the actual 
>picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27
>
>Annnnnyyyway - the question:
>
>
>I may have to use the practice bodice if the other doesn't work out or is 
>not done in time for the presentation.
>
>The other bodice will require a peplum of sorts to which all the leaves are 
>attached. I did the same here and then experimented with no tabs, all the 
>tabs in the same pattern, and finally tabs made from "cabbage" - random 
>pieces of fabric.
>
>Part of me wants to leave it without tabs, because it looks fussy to me. But 
>many of the bodices had these whacky shaped tabs, and the original obviously 
>did too......sigh....decisions, decisions.
>
>What is your vote?  Thanks for your opinions!
>
>Sg
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
> 
>____________________________________________________________________________________
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jordana robinson wrote:

> i haven't received anything yet, but i'm hoping it is there when i go
> back to work next tuesday!
> -jordana
> __________________

Jordana,

Did you get your package?


Dawn


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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:55:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historic Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Recent book: 18th c. calico trade
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Status: RO


My librarian friend alerted me to this:

Vicente, Marta V. Clothing the Spanish Empire : families and the calico
trade in the early modern Atlantic world / Marta V. Vicente. (The
Americas in the early modern Atlantic world) Palgrave Macmillan.
1403972265. 9781403972262. R2-623549.  2006. US. USD65.00 

http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/product.aspx?isbn=1403972265

--Robin

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From: "jordana robinson" <mylaar@gmail.com>
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Status: RO

yes, i did eventually get it. i'm sorry that i forgot to update the list.

thanks for organizing the swap.

On 1/30/07, Dawn <dawn@reddawn.net> wrote:
> jordana robinson wrote:
>
> > i haven't received anything yet, but i'm hoping it is there when i go
> > back to work next tuesday!
> > -jordana
> > __________________
>
> Jordana,
>
> Did you get your package?
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
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Status: RO

Hi,
Thanks for your feedbacks about this.
As there are examples with both, ill stick to the center back seam after 
all.
That is the easyest to do, as i have 2 embroidered pieces each 140 cm wide.
Thanks again.

Bjarne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sunshine_buchler@agilent.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: [h-cost] question about robe anglaise.


> Hi Bjarne!
>
> I've recently done a c1776 robe anglaise, which is ~20 years before your 
> dress, so take my references with a grain of salt.
>
>>From a brief flip though my documentation binder, it seems very common to 
>>have side-back seams in the skirt - which fall approximately mid-way 
>>between the side seam and the CB area.
> (Center back seams for the skirt were unusual, but I did find one 
> example.) It is my conjecture that the standard skirt construction was 5 
> fabric widths: 2 for the front and side and one full width for the center 
> back.
>
> Here are the useful sources I had:
>
> 1) The closed robe in _Fitting and Proper_ has 2 side/side-back seams on 
> each side of the skirt between the CB and the seam where on an open robe 
> the front opening would start. Note, this dress, unlike yours, has the CB 
> of the bodice in one piece with the CB skirt panel.
>
> 2) The open robe anglaise on page 24 of _Fitting and Proper_ also has 2 
> seams in the skirt between the CF opening and the CB. Again, note that 
> this dress, unlike yours, has the CB of the bodice in one piece with the 
> CB skirt panel.
>
> 3) 1770-85 Polonaise gown on page 37 of _Patterns of Fashion_ - has 
> separate CB bodice and skirt panels.  This is the only instance I found 
> with a CB seam in the skirt.
>
> 4) None of the robe anglaise with separate back bodice and back skirt 
> panels (for  the 1776 era) in _Costume in Detail_ have center back seams - 
> Bradfield's seam line notations imply that their construction is the same 
> 5 panel skirt construction described above.
>
> 5) The 1775-85 dress on page 40 of _Patterns of Fashion_ also has the 5 
> panel construction without CB skirt seam.
>
> Hope this helps,
> -s
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:03:46 +1100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Its a little late, but
Late Georgian Costume:
The tailors Friendly Instructor (1822) By J Wyatt
and
The Art of Tying the Cravat (1828)
By H Le Blanc

is available from Lacis if you're interested. I make my linen cravats  
55" long and 10" wide.

Cheers, Aylwen Garden

http://www.regencyreproductions.com
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au

On 30/01/2007, at 2:42 PM, David S. Mallinak wrote:

> Dawn wrote:
>> I'm trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early  
>> 18th century man's cravat. I've got plenty of sources that say  
>> they tied around the neck in various ways, but not much else. Does  
>> anyone know how wide and how long the cloth is? Would it be wide  
>> enough to fold one or more times, or would it be worn as a single  
>> thickness? Did they wrap from the back and tie in front like a  
>> scarf, or were they wrapped across the throat in front, around the  
>> back, and then tied in front?
>>
>> Does anyone know of any photos of extant cravats other than the  
>> one in _Cut of Men's Clothes_? (And I think that one is just the  
>> lace ends, anyway, it looks far too short to tie around anything,  
>> but there's no indication of size or scale, so who can tell.)
> It has been a long time since I read it, but its:
>    Collars, Stocks, and Cravat
>    by Doriece Colle
>    Rodale Press, Inc. 1972
>    72840 005 7
>
> Your humble and obedient servant,
> David S Mallinak
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: color 
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:51:38 -0800
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Status: RO


On Jan 29, 2007, at 7:21 PM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/29/2007 7:39:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> gailscott@eos.net writes:
>
> first  and she said it was green because of plants
>
>
> I believe the earliest form of chlorophyll was  red.

The amusing thing in this philosophical exercise is that color  
_categories_ don't have any objective existence -- they are an  
epiphenomenon of the physiological structure of light-perceiving  
organs.  To clarify:  light wavelengths have objective existence, but  
the concept that a particular range of wavelengths, albeit with fuzzy  
boundaries, constitutes the color "red" or "green" is a function of  
the particular sensitivities of retinal cells.  Before the existence  
of eyes and brains, there were no color categories to precede or  
follow each other.

Heather
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Subject: [h-cost] speaking of lace
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Status: RO

This story on traditional handmade Polish lace caught my eye.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6312429.stm

"Artisans who used to create gowns and altar cloths for customers such 
as the late Pope now craft G-strings and other lingerie for sale all 
over the world.

They say the underwear is quicker to make and easier to sell than 
traditional goods such as tablecloths. "


I'm sorry to see the traditional demand is down, but glad to know they 
can find a modern market rather than let the craft die.



Dawn




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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Suzi Clarke <suzi@suziclarke.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] early 18th century cravats
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Status: RO

At 21:03 30/01/2007, you wrote:
>Its a little late, but
>Late Georgian Costume:
>The tailors Friendly Instructor (1822) By J Wyatt
>and
>The Art of Tying the Cravat (1828)
>By H Le Blanc
>
>is available from Lacis if you're interested. I make my linen cravats
>55" long and 10" wide.

Wrong period - not even Regency by the time these books were 
published. I have them too - not really suitable for early 18th century at all.

Suzi

>>>I'm trying to figure out the dimensions for a late 17th or early
>>>18th century man's cravat. I've got plenty of sources that say
>>>they tied around the neck in various ways, but not much else. Does
>>>anyone know how wide and how long the cloth is? Would it be wide
>>>enough to fold one or more times, or would it be worn as a single
>>>thickness? Did they wrap from the back and tie in front like a
>>>scarf, or were they wrapped across the throat in front, around the
>>>back, and then tied in front?
>>>
>>>Does anyone know of any photos of extant cravats other than the
>>>one in _Cut of Men's Clothes_? (And I think that one is just the
>>>lace ends, anyway, it looks far too short to tie around anything,
>>>but there's no indication of size or scale, so who can tell.)
>>It has been a long time since I read it, but its:
>>    Collars, Stocks, and Cravat
>>    by Doriece Colle
>>    Rodale Press, Inc. 1972
>>    72840 005 7
>>
>>Your humble and obedient servant,
>>David S Mallinak
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>h-costume mailing list
>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] re: to tab or not to tab
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Status: RO


I don't know what is supposed to look stupid here. I like the tabs. And I
like the ones that don't match better than the ones that do -- the matchy
ones look "costumey" to me and the random ones look more real.

Oh well, I may be tacky but I guess I'm period!

Gail Finke

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of lace
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Status: RO

Reminds me a little of the "accessories" discussion a while back.  


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dawn" <dawn@reddawn.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:02 PM
Subject: [h-cost] speaking of lace


> This story on traditional handmade Polish lace caught my eye.
> 
>snip 
> 
> I'm sorry to see the traditional demand is down, but glad to know they 
> can find a modern market rather than let the craft die.
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn
> 
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Romanesque costume
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Status: RO

I am considering ordering a photocopy of

Romanesque-Byzantine Elements in French and English Dress 1050-1180 by 
Jennifer Harris. Univ. Manchester Ph.D Thesis (1977)

Has anyone seen/read this Thesis? I am not able to ILL this in the US, so a 
copy would have to be ordered from the Univ. of Manchester... and it's a 
bit pricey.

A short article based on it was in Costume (Journal of the Costume Society) 
number 21 (1987) pp 4-15 "'Thieves, Harlots and Stinking Goats': 
Fashionable Dress and Aesthetic Attitudes in Romanesque Art".

Thanks.
Beth Matney

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Subject: [h-cost] New info on CostumeCon
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This may be of interest to you if:

  -- You're attending CostumeCon on a one-day membership for Saturday,
March 31, the day of the Netherton lectures (or considering doing so); or

  -- You'd like to come for the lectures, but you think a one-day
membership is a little too expensive for five lectures and one day of con
activities; or

  -- You're within easy driving range and would just like a peek into what
CostumeCon is like.

If so, you might be interested to know that one-day memberships are FREE
for Friday. Friday is a slower day, as it doesn't have one of the big
shows (like Saturday and Sunday do). But there's still plenty to keep you
busy: some panels, an extensive dealer's room, and the Friday Night
Social, to name just a few. And lots of costumers wandering around,
chatting, hanging out in hospitality, etc.

So, those of you who are coming Saturday for my lectures can get an extra
day of con activity if you want it. And if you're not interested in the
lectures but do want to see what a CostumeCon is like, you can get a taste
of it just by showing up on Friday.

(If you're coming for the whole con, you've got Friday through Monday
already!)

Con info here:
http://www.cc25.net/start.htm
Click the news link or the site map for a quick overview of various
elements of the con.

Lecture info here:
http://www.cc25.net/netherton.htm

You can forward this message at will.

--Robin


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From: "Diane Maynard" <camelothorse@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] To Tab or not to Tab?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:45:41 -0600
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Status: RO



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Saragrace Knauf
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:30 AM
OMG !!   I am laughing so hard.  I was on short time frame and bought this
same material (at 60% off at JoAnn's) to throw together a quick Elizabethan.
I did not have enough of the flocked material to make the long Spanish
sleeves I wanted to add so, I found (by pure luck) the perfect match to the
background material (at of all places--Hobby Lobby) and used that with cut
velvet trim to tie the theme back into the main flocked material.  I have
NEVER had so many compliments and got stopped every 10 feet at our local
Faire for photos.  Everyone went crazy over that fabric.  I have to say,
that it did look rich and wonderful when the light hit it.

As to YOUR outfit--I like the tabs.  

Diane



I'm not sure what I should do here. This bodice http://tinyurl.com/343la7
is sort of a practice bodice. It is made from flocked fake silk taffeta 
(barf - but it was the closest fabric I have found to give the right look.) 
I found it at the last minute about a week ago at Jo Annes - it just 
happened to match the silk taffeta of the skirt almost exactly. I am in the 
process of having another embroidered to match the embroidery in the actual 
picture. http://tinyurl.com/3bdc27


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Subject: [h-cost] Re: New info on CostumeCon
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Status: RO

One correction, Robin -

The free membership for Friday (one-day) does not include the Friday 
Night Social.  There is a $5.00 event fee for that event if you are 
not a full weekend member, as this is a catered by the hotel 
event.  I don't think this is mentioned on the website - I'll drop a 
hint to fix that....

Sandy (wife of co-chair Pierre)

At 01:11 PM 1/31/2007, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:21:21 -0600 (CST)
>From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
>Subject: [h-cost] New info on CostumeCon
>
>This may be of interest to you if:
>
>   -- You're attending CostumeCon on a one-day membership for Saturday,
>March 31, the day of the Netherton lectures (or considering doing so); or
>
>   -- You'd like to come for the lectures, but you think a one-day
>membership is a little too expensive for five lectures and one day of con
>activities; or
>
>   -- You're within easy driving range and would just like a peek into what
>CostumeCon is like.
>
>If so, you might be interested to know that one-day memberships are FREE
>for Friday. Friday is a slower day, as it doesn't have one of the big
>shows (like Saturday and Sunday do). But there's still plenty to keep you
>busy: some panels, an extensive dealer's room, and the Friday Night
>Social, to name just a few. And lots of costumers wandering around,
>chatting, hanging out in hospitality, etc.
>
>(If you're coming for the whole con, you've got Friday through Monday
>already!)
>
>Con info here:
>http://www.cc25.net/start.htm
>
>Lecture info here:
>http://www.cc25.net/netherton.htm
>
>--Robin

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
  -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  


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