From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 18:10:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 19, 12/15/93 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 19, December 15, 1993 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Comments on Koehler Request for Children's Hats references More on Greek and Roman costume Equestrian Source Kilts Comments Continue Sailors and Earrings Mongol costume reference ---------------------------------------- From: "Sarah Randles" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 93 09:33:30 EST Subject: Re: Kohler On Tue 14 Dec 1993 12:38 PT, wrote: >I heartily recommend Kohler's book for patterns/diagrams. I can't remember >the title, but it's published by Dover. I appologise if this offends, but I heartily _don't_ recommend Kohler. While some of the patterns are accurate, and can be corroborated by other sources, many are not. The text is often quite wildly inaccurate, and it's major problem is that it does not give sources for its patterns and line drawings. I have not been able to authenticate any of his 15th century information, and in particular much of his information on women's costume is unsubstantiated. Even as a beginner's book, for someone not particularly concerned by authenticity, this would not be a book I'd recomend, since its patterns are not easy to follow, and there is little construction detail. >From memory, Kohler was writing in 19th century Germany, when the techniques of costume history were by no means as well defined as they are now. The general rule of the further from the author's time and place, the less accurate the information seems to hold for this book. For the experienced costumer, I would advise that this book be treated with extreme caution, and for a less experienced costumer, avoided. Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au -------------------------------------- From: joehanibal@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 19:37:05 EST Subject: Hats I apologize for leaping headfirst into a mailing list that I have just joined, but I am in desperate need of reference material re hats worn by children in the 30's and 40's ie Dead End Kids?)... Adult hats are not such a big deal to locate, but since children often wore modified or "unfashionable" headgear, they are a bit more obscure - Thx Joe Hanibal - Lost In Los Angeles -------------------------------------- From: holsten@nature.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Re: Kohler Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 16:45:36 PDT I have a friend who says that she's getting the Kohler book *in original German*. Is Kohler the original author, or just the translator? Because it makes sense to me, that if the translator is not also a costume researcher, there will be a *lot* of mistakes in the translation. My friend says she's seen the original, and, not only is it a huge book, but from what she can tell with her meager German language skills, it seems to be pretty accurate. I'd be interested to know what other people think of the original (if anyone's seen it) versus the translation. Donna holsten@insect.berkeley.edu -------------------------------------- Date: 14 Dec 1993 20:35:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Been to the East Subject: Greek/Roman There really is no need for a pattern for ancient Greek and Roman clothing, since basically all that a Greek/Roman woman wore (I'll use 'Greek' here to save typing and because Greek and Roman women's dress was very similar) was a large oblong of linen or loosely woven wool. In Doric style, this was simply folded around the body, left open along the side, and pinned at the shoulders; in the later Ionic style chiton, the garment was closed on both sides like a giant tube around the woman's body (which would reach about from fingertip to fingertip) and fastened with small clasps along the upper open edge to form sleeves, then belted. The book I've used for my Greek clothing is *Ancient Greek, Roman and Byzantine Costume* by Mary Houston, 1966, which gives the best diagrams I have seen for how to wrap the himation. Variations on Greek and Roman dress come from the method of folding the Doric overwrap, method of wrapping the himation or overcape, and border trim. Hope this help.s Maura -------------------------------------- From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 12:47:47 EST10 Subject: kilts & equestrian Hi all at the historic costume list - I hope I've sent this to the correct address. I'm another new subscriber 8-) I don't know if these books will help at all as I came across them in a book search and haven't actually sighted them myself, so I can't vouch for their usefulness. The one I found on the equestrian line was: Cunnington, Phillis Emily & Mansfield, Alan. English costume for sports and outdoor recreation from 16th century to 19th century. London, Black, 1978. And the other book which sounded interesting on the kilt thread was: Dunbar, John Telfer. History of highland dress: a definitive study of the history of Scottish costume and tartan both civil & military including weapons: with an appendix on early Sottish dyes by A. Kok. Edinburh, Oliver & Boyd, 1962. However, with a title like that it sounds as if it's too good to be true! Anyway, they may be worth looking into. BTW, this is a very interesting group which I've enjoyed immensely. It's turned my passing interest into quite a passion to learn more! Hence the book search. Thanks very much to all involved and happy holidays from the land where we never have a 'White Christmas' (Australia). Cheers, Heather -------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 93 00:20:35 -0500 From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Subject: Scottish clothing, kilts especially From: holsten@nature.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Campbell tartan Is there a difference between modern kilts and older ones? Military kilts changed in, I believe, the 1840's: the cloth was changed from the very stiff "hard tartan" to the much lighter "soft tartan". Even modern military tartan is much stiffer than the civilian stuff: at least my uniform kilt is much heavier and stiffer than my civilian kilt. (I'm pretty sure that Really Old ones were just rectangles of fabric that were pleated every time someone wanted to put them on, right? ... That sort of thing is usually called a "belted plaid". It was worn from the late 16th century through the 18th century. An excellent account of the transition can be found in John Telfer Dunbar's _The Costume of Scotland_ (London: Batsford, 1981), which is in print in paperback. And just out of curiousity--when exactly did the "one-tartan-per-family" rule start? It isn't really a rule, and it's not so much a "family" thing as a clan thing: the two are not the same. There are still many district tartans (my civilian kilt is made of Ontario tartan), organisational tartans, and general tartans. Tartan, by the way, refers to the type of cloth: the pattern is called aa sett. I heard that it was actually made up by a Polish man about 200 years ago and has no real basis in local tradition. Does that story have any base in fact? Lots of basis in fact. John Sobieski Stuart, and his brother, had a lot to do with the current catalogue of tartans. They published a large and largely mythical book on the subject. From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: kilts I made a kilt about 10 years ago after visually dissecting a kilt that a piper I knew had just received from Scotland and it was pretty easy. There was an article about kiltmaking in Threads about a year ago that seemed to make any sort of a pattern superfluous. You just get about 9 meters or tartant and pleat away! The current standard is eight yards, based on the military kilt. From: peter@imatron.COM (Peter Cooke [Orca]) Subject: kilts My scottish ren group uses 4inch pleats. As alleged by my group: Every morning The person would take a 10 yard plaid. A full 60 inch. material fold it in half pleat every 4 inches for a little over the waist diameter of the person wearing the klit. The person would then slide a belt under the kilt at the mid point. This is a pretty standard way of re-creating it. Problem: how many 60 inch wide looms were used in the Scottish Highlands and Isles during the Renaissance? Ten yards, maybe; but I'd expect 10 yards sewn together along one selvage to form a five-yard piece of cloth. Then comes the sporin belt(contains tobacco, wiskey, ONIONS, verious roots) usually make out of badger or leather. then comes the genelmen belt to his purse (another large sachel for FOOD/coins) and small daggers (any small dagger 8inches to 2 feet). Over this the gentleman would wear his sword belt). Later sporrans, especially dress sporrans, tend to be less capacious. My room-mate's hair sporran has only a token change purse in the back; and mine has no pocket of any sort. Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 18:09:04 -0800 From: bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) 2) i am thinking of transfering colleges (i go to mills college right now). i am a european history major, but i would like to do some minor work in costuming. can anyone recommed a college (preferable west coast and non-snow, but i'm open....) that has a good history and costuming (or just a good costuming) department? (i'm not particularly interested in san francisco state, so any other suggestions would be much appreciated :) ). Dalhousie University in Halifax has a good programme, and it is on _a_ coast. From: J.A.Bray@bnr.co.uk Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 09:21:03 GMT To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Campbell tartan There's a place somewhere in Scotland that keeps track of all the tartans and has samples and weave details etc. I know it exists because I knew a Farquahar who used them to trace his clan's tartan. I'm afraid I don't have any details on the place though. Lyon Court now has a registry of tartan. It's mostly a concession to the fact that tartan is one of Scotland's few remaining profitable industries. It will take me a while to ferret out the scrap of paper with the name of the Registrar and the address of Lyon Court ... One last comment: the "ragged" edge of the kilt at the right-hand side of the apron (on officers', bandsmen's and civilian kilts) is not ravelled fabric: it is actually a sewn-on trim. Best of luck, Aryk Nusbacher Highlander for the working day -------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 22:18:36 PST From: tjshadb@ecto.ca.sandia.gov (Troy J. Shadbolt) Subject: Kilt Hell ;-) hello all; it's me Mr. Kilt again just throwing more pennies in the discussion. 1) Do NOT waste your money on the Folkwear Scottish Kilts pattern. There is no pattern, only VERY poorly written instructions. I'm not a super tailor (like Ellie :-)) but I can usually hold my own; but I ended talking for many hours to my Scottish grandmother trying to decipher the Accent (yes ACCENT) in which the directions are given. 2) The colorful book of KILTS is probably in the world section of your public library; even the idiots at my library have it. All tartans registered with the Lord Lyon (including the ancient versions) are in COLOR and include the sett directions for weaving. The do NOT have the Gregorian/Victorian 'formals' in this book. 3) the Arisade, or woman's sash, is just that, a sash. The Kilt skirt circa 1820 is merely a knee length skirt that is pleated all the way around and buttons at the waist. 4)the tough stuff: I am still putting together all of my construction notes, but when I have them done, I'll let you know-- I'm an idiot, I write like an idiot, so an idiot should be able to follow my directions. 5) things to remember: 1. total pleats in a kilt is solely dependent on the SIZE of the pattern, bigger pattern; fewer pleats. 2. all tartans take 6 yards of material 3. the length is 1" above the knee. 4. things get awfully chilly in a kilt. :-) so long my pricked-finger brethren. troy shadbolt -------------------------------------- From: Dave Uebele Subject: earrings and sailors Date: Wed, 15 Dec 93 8:11:12 PST I've been trying to find information regarding earrings and sailors. Specificaly, for traditions and styles for sailors in the America's, pacific coast, or barbara coast: time period 1800-1900. I've heard that an earing might be a sign that the sailor has crossed the equator, or that it was your burial price (a 1/4 ounce hoop), the idea being that someone will go after your body if you have that much gold in it. I'm also interested in earings worn by american military (not volunteers) for circa American civil war. I've seen some prints of "Dragoons" with hoop earings but thats mostly 1840's or so since the dragoons were dispanded and incorporated into cavalry regiments prior to 1860. I'm also not positive on the accuracy of the prints. Any sources of information would be appreciated. The reason: I do civil war re-enactments, my unit is regular army and was stationed/recruited in San Francisco prior to the conflict. I also have a pierced ear and tend to forget that I have something in there when I go to events so I'd like to wear something that is plasible for the time. I wear a gold hoop already as first attempt to pass. Thanks dave -- Dave Uebele daveu@cisco.com (415) 688-7856 -------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 93 12:25:51 EST From: Swing To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Scottish costume Cc: michele@oasys.dt.navy.mil I am interested in getting a sources for Scottish costume including accessories, with good information on fourteenth century dress. I would like to be as authentic as possible, and will probably be making clothes for my husband from this time. I am also interested in any good social histories of this time and place. bio: I have been interested in Medieval history since junior high, and have sewn costumes since becoming active in the SCA in college. I only sew moderately well at this point, but hope to sew more complicated clothing in the future. I have participated in a group which did Celtic reenacment at Military through the ages. I am particularly interested in weaving. I have done card weaving and own some other looms which I hope to work on soon. Michele Michele F.J.M. Swing (michele@oasys.dt.navy.mil) Wulfgifu Wadylove of Wokyhole (SCA) -------------------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Kilt Hell ;-) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 10:50:36 -0800 (PST) > 1) Do NOT waste your money on the Folkwear Scottish Kilts pattern. There > is no pattern, only VERY poorly written instructions. I'm not a super I haven't seen the inside of the Folkwear Scottish Kilt(s) pattern, yet, but I do own the Feb/Mar 1991 (no. 33) Threads magazine Kilts article by Ann Stewart. Threads and Folkwear are both produced by the Taunton Press, but that's no guarantee that they used their own resources (ie. magazine articles) in creating their kilt pattern. I thought the Threads article was pretty darned good, and it included pleating diagrams and instructions, as well as a brief history of both the kilt and the women's skirt version. The author of the article, Ann Stewart, is a professional kiltmaker and she sells kiltmaking accessories and tartans on the side. Anyone else have an opinion of that article and how it compares to authentic kiltmaking? -- Diane Barlow Close (who had (rip) authentic Scottish granparents on one side and Irish and Welsh on the other.) close@lunch.asd.sgi.com -------------------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: tracing tartans Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 11:01:35 -0800 (PST) > There's a place somewhere in Scotland that keeps track of all the tartans > and has samples and weave details etc. > Has any one else heard of some sort of register of tartans? I've heard of it and have even used it in the past, although I've currently misplaced the address information. One of the things to beware of when tracing tartans and/or coat of arms (or other heraldic symbols) is that families often took a different symbol and/or tartan when they came to the "new world" of North America. For example, the Barlow coat of arms in Great Britain sports a sheaf of barley, but the North American version is a two-headed eagle *holding* a swath of barley and a bent cross, one in each foot. My Dad wanted the tartan and coat of arms of his Scotland-born father and if I didn't do careful research my Mom would've given him the tartan and coat of arms of the transplanted American Barlows. Not the same thing at all! :-) -- Diane Barlow Close close@lunch.asd.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) -------------------------------------- From: "Pete Kucik" Date: 15 Dec 93 07:55:20 CST Subject: Mongol Costume Book With Patterns The following book has patterns for all types of Mongol clothing, including the boots with the pointed toes. Hansen, Henny Harald, MONGOL COSTUMES; RESEARCHES ON THE GARMENTS COLLECTED BY THE FIRST AND SECOND DANISH CENTRAL ASIAN EXPEDITIONS UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF HENNING HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 and 1938-39 (Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, l950) It is hard to find and will probably have to be borrowed on inter-library loan. My suggestion is to photocopy the English first part of the book, reduced to letter-size, 3-hole punch it, and put it in a 3-ring binder. That way when friends want a pattern, you can photocopy just that page. For Mongol hats, hair styles, and jewellrey: Boyer,Martha, MONGOL JEWELLERY: RESEARCHES ON THE SILVER JEWELLERY COLLECTED BY THE FIRST AND SECOND DANISH CENTRAL ASIAN EXPEDITIONS UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF HENNING HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 AND 1938-39 (Kobenhaven: Gyldendalske Boghandel Nordisk Forlag, l952) (Note: A third book came out of this expedition: Haslund-Christensen, Henning, THE MUSIC OF THE MONGOLS; EASTERN MONGOLIA (New York: Da Capo Press, l971) (has pictures of music instruments and sheet music)) -------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 15:36:49 -0700 (MST) From: Elaine Clark Subject: More on sailors and earrings I have read that earrings were a charm against drowning. Also, that they are against the evil eye. I have the book at home, and although it is more entertaining than academic, I will try to elaborate tomorrow. Elaine.Clark@m.cc.utah.edu ------------------------End of Volume 19-----------------------------