From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 17:26:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 23, 1/3/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 23, January 3, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Corsets, Corsets, Corsets Continues Bodice and Sleeves sloopers circa 1898 Questions and answers about women's undergarments in 18th C Zaftig? Cutter's Research Journal ----------------------------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 15:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Corset Construction BUSKS: The busk DOES NOT bend (nor should the bones used in place of a busk, if you don't have one). It is a long, relatively narrow (not TOO narrow, or it will not be strong enough not to snap when you sit) triangle, point down. What happens when you sit is that the busk point slides down OVER the abdomen (NOT into it), thus maintaining the rigidity of the front of the corset. It is not particularly uncomfortable. If you have a protuberant tummy (as I do -- I don't mean a little roundness, I mean a REAL tummy), I would recommend boning instead of a busk, because the boning DOES have a little give, which the busk does not. It will be more comfortable. The late Elizabethan gowns with the enormously exaggerated long points in front required corsets with BUSKS so long that a woman could not sit down with her legs together. She sort of squatted until backside met seat. Coupled with the wagon wheel farthingales worn in conjunction with these extreme BUSKS, backless stools became fashionable, and were preferred to chairs with backs. I don't recommend you make your busk THAT long unless you're making a corset specially designed to go with such a gown. BONING INTO TABS Yes, the skirt IS attached to the bodice. However, women's gowns of this period were fitted snuggly over the underpinnings -- they did not "float" the way modern gowns do over their underpinings. This means that when the gown is laced closed over the corset, the tension of the lacing keeps the gown from migrating. However, without the boned tabs on the corset, the weight of the (frequently) heavy skirt pulls on the shoulders of the gown -- thus tending to pull the back out of alignment. The corset itself goes nowhere because it is snug at the waist -- it can go neither up (over the widening ribcage), nor down (over the broader hips). Straps are really unnecessary unless you need them to anchor the shoulders of the gown itself (occasionally necessary, depending on the gown and your body type). None of my corsets have had shoulders. When then pleats of the gown "rest" on (perhaps "hang from" would be more accurate) the tabs of the corset, they push DOWN on the corset, which is resting on the hips (and can't go anywhere). Thus the shoulders carry only SOME of the skirt's weight (there are no tabs in the center front quarter of the corset) and a small amount of weight from the bodice itself (most of the weight is "carried" by the friction between the gown and the corset). And the hip girdle area of the female body is designed to carry her own weight and the weight of a child in the womb. Good engineering. That's why women RARELY have lower back problems (other than thru injury), but most men do. Women tend to have upper back problems (from the weight of the breasts and the tendency of women not to develop the musculature of their upper bodies). Corsets, I might add, are WONDERFUL if you have back problems. They act like an insect's exoskeleton, relieving the strain on tired or weak back and shoulder muscles and redistributing it to the hips and legs, which are much better muscularly developed in women. Hope this helps. Denise/Deonora Ridenow ----------------------------------------- From: "Sarah Randles" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 10:00:30 EST Subject: Re: corset construction Thanks for all the corset info, everone. I was particularly interested in the discussion of the different bones. I suppose it's a vain hope, but does anyone know of a source of steel boning in Australia? At the moment we rely on kind visitors (thankyou Lizbeth, Kat) bringing this kind of hard to get supplies, or finding old corsets in op shops and recycling the boning. I'm also interested in the spiral boning - can someone give me a description, and possibly a source. On Mon, 20 Dec 93 10:48:54 PST, Mirabelle Severn & Thames wrote: >A couple of people mention wooden busks. I was going to do >this, but couldn't figure out how to keep from stabbing my >abdomen every time I sat down. The instructions I was following >(I forget where I got them) seemed to indicate that a wooden >busk would be a long, narrow triangle of wood inserted down >the center of the corset from the top center front to the >point at the abdomen. It's this point at the abdomen, combined >with the lack of flexing at the waist, that defeated me. What >was I doing wrong? I made a tudor corset with a wooden busk some years ago. The busk was made out of a wooden ruler, sanded down at the sides and painted gold just for fun. (Well I guess the little centimeter marks aren't exactly period). It was not as long as an Elizabethan corset, but the sitting problem was still there. A friend with more knowledge demonstrated the appropriate way of sitting to solve the problem. Back dead straight, knees apart. Very attractive! The corset supports the back so it's not as uncomfortable as you might think. If you look at some of the portraits of QEI, its clear that she's sitting this way. I did however discover another problem of corset deportment - lying down. On the (one) occaision I wore this garment, I had been up all night sewing for an SCA investiture (familiar story?) and was very tired during the event, so I tried to snatch a nap during a break in proceedings and discovered that there was no way I could lie down comfortably in the corset. So back to the unboned Middle Ages. Actually there is some reference to a Medieval corset. In fact there is an acticle in the Costume journal (proceedings of the British Costume Society) in I think volume 3. However, no library in my state has this issue, and I'm wondering if anyone else knows anything about this. Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au ----------------------------------------- Date: 20 Dec 1993 21:02:44 -0800 (PST) From: Marjorie Subject: corsets To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Just wanted to add I am *really* enjoying Karen, Denise, and others' discussions about corseting. While I have made several 19th century corsets, and helped an extremely zaftig friend build hers, my skills want polishing. Can any of you suggest a way to avoid wear-through when using a "modern" late 19th century knob-and-eye front opening busk? The kind commonly sold in the kits? I'm considering lining my casings with ripstop or pack cloth next time. Also, are there GOOD, consistant mailorder sources for both steel boning and spiral boning? Thanks to all of you!! ==Marjorie ----------------------------------------- Date: 20 Dec 1993 21:11:02 -0800 (PST) From: Marjorie Subject: *Old* Sloper! I have just found (and hurriedly purchased) an old set of bodice and sleeve slopers, "improved" as the rubber stamp says, Aug 30, 1898. It's the "Mechanical System of Dress Cutting by Mme. Martina Lindsay." There is a bodice front/sidefront/sideback (all one piece) with double darts marked, and *lots* of little holes to help you trace off the right size. There's a center back, an upper/outer sleeve, and an inner/lower sleeve, as well as a "dart rule" which is sort of a "half-a-fish" shape about 24" long and 3" wide. The pieces are printed on oiled paper about the weight of a file folder. There's even a "photo" engraving of Mme. Lindsay, signed Sunset Photo Eng. SF -=- which I take to mean San Francisco (until further notice!) Naturally, no directions about this wonderful "mechanical system," so I'm hoping one of you may have heard of it. We *do* have a Patent Library in Sunnyvale, so I can check there, and of course write to San Francisco & check about the company.... and check the 1890s city directories myself. SO: If anyone has ever heard of this marvel, please do let me know!! Since I help out at our local museum and design my own costumes, as well as give advice, it is the current FIND OF THE CENTURY for me. It even purports to fit a 32" to a 44" bust! ==Marjorie Wilser: mlwilser@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu ""*Old* Sloper! ----------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 07:35:22 CST From: "rebecca mioak chung" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Corsets and bodies! I'm planning a dissertation on rich women in 18C Britain. I want to deepen my understanding for the way these women actually lived their lives, and joined this list to help me understand what they wore every day and how it affected their quality of life. I eventually want to reconstruct some of the garments so I can feel for myself how they constrained the body. So I've loved the corset conversation, especially when corset wearers described their experiences wearing corsets? Is there anything written on the relation between clothing and female health? Also, where can I begin teaching myself about the types of fabrics available to 18C women, the time women spent using their eyes and hands to make the garments, how much garments weighed, how often they were cleaned, and how functional they were - if functional mattered. Also, I need to know about differences in dress among the different classes. I have the Dover History of Underwear; how reliable is it? Thank you Rebecca Chung rmc2@quads.uchicago.edu ----------------------------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 09:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Medieval Corset Article To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I have a copy of the Medieval Corset article from _COSTUME_. If you're interested, and will send me your address, I'll send it to you. The corset they talk about is not what modern people think of as a corset -- though more than that I can't remember. BTW -- I have a great many articles copied from _COSTUME_ and _Waffen-und Kostumkunde_ (sp?). I'll try to post a list of them, if folks are interested. I also have ACCESS to said journals. If you're desperate to get an articles, drop me a few lines. If I'm inundated, I'll have to ask people to send me stamps. I'm still sending out the copies of the two 16th-17th c. shirt articles by Janet Arnold. The last of them, for those who are waiting patiently, should go out in today's mail._ ----------------------------------------- From: "Sarah Randles" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 09:59:58 EST To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Zaftig >On 20 Dec 1993 21:02:44 -0800 (PST), Marjorie wrote: > >Just wanted to add I am *really* enjoying Karen, Denise, and others' >discussions about corseting. While I have made several 19th century >corsets, and helped an extremely zaftig friend build hers, my skills >want polishing. Just a curiosity - what does zaftig mean? I've seen it in a couple of postings on this list, and I've never heard the word before. Is it Jewish? It sounds like it could apply to me. Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au ----------------------------------------- From: waltz@mprgate.mpr.ca To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Zaftig Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 15:53:44 pst Just a curiosity - what does zaftig mean? I've seen it in a couple of postings on this list, and I've never heard the word before. Is it Jewish? It sounds like it could apply to me. Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au "Zaftig" comes from the Yiddish "zaftik", which means juicy, succulent. Websters defines "zaftig" as having a full rounded figure: pleasingly plump. Good word, isn't it! Regards, Marina --- End Included Message --- ----------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 22:23:56 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Replies to questions Marjorie Wilser asked where to find documentation for a patent drafting system she bought. There is an excellent book on such systems, called "Cutting a Fashionable Fit," by Claudia Kidwell. It is published by the Smithsonian Institution Press and sold by the U.S. Governemnt Printing Office. It includes an appendix of "Pre-1920 Publications at the Library of Congress Containing Drafting Systems for Women's Garments" and an appendix of "Patents for Drafting Systems for Assorted Clothing." Another option would be to write to the Cutter's Research Journal, a technical publication for people who reproduce historic clothing. Their address is: Cutter's Research Journal USITT 10 W 19th St., Suite 5A New York, NY 10011 This is a very good quarterly journal and well worth the $16 subscription. But even if you don't subscribe, you could ask them to insert an inquiry. A number of readers are researching such systems, which generally have parted company with their manuals. "Cracking" the harder ones seems to be a popular thesis topic. Rebecca Chung asked about books on 18th-century women's clothing. I'd recommend Dress in Eighteenth-Century England, by Anne Buck, and Dress in Eighteenth-Century Europe, by Aileen Ribeiro. Two books that are essentially museum exhibit catalogs with solid essays are An Elegant Art: Fashion and Fantasy in the Eighteenth Century, by the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, and Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815, by the Kyoto Costume Institute. Fran Grimble ------------------------End of Volume 23-----------------------------