From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 18:50:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 74, 3/17/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 74, March 17, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Lectures/Fashion Shows (San Francisco area) Comment on soc.history.reenacment newsgroup proposal History of paper patterns and toiles Basic toile making instructions Query: How to make removable berry stains Coins for costumes Question and answer: Source for industrial scissors More definitions ---------------------------- Date: 16 Mar 1994 15:30:10 U From: "Blake, Roberta" Subject: Expo in SF: Lectures/Fashion Shows FYI: For those in the San Francisco Bay Area this weekend March 19th & 20th Vintage Fashion Expo (co-sponsored by the Federation of Vintage Fashion) San Francisco Concourse (at 8th and Brannan Sts.) 10-5 daily with fashion shows and lectures included in the $5 admission price. Call John Maxwell for more information at (510) 653-1087 (NOTE: For those of you in other areas, i believe he can provide info on other expos over the next year.) Supposed to be over 100 dealers there offering a selection of antique and reproduction patterns, accessories, and vintage pieces from the 1850's to the1950's. _Details_ Saturday- Lecture on "Fashions from Fig Leaf to Finery: Changes in Fashion", Fashion Show "What a difference a decade makes...1880 vs 1890 and 1920 vs 1930", Lecture on "Hat Restoration" Sunday - Fashion Show: "Bridal Fashions Late Victorian to 40's", Lecture on "Lace". NOTE: i'm not affiliated with this, and have not attended any before. anyone who has attended one of these expos, please post with comments. thanks. --roberta ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Check out news.groups Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 17:23:46 -0800 (PST) A proposal is out for soc.history.reenactment. It's generating a fair bit of controversy, not the least of which was caused by the proposal's author calling this list's members a bunch of goof-offs who wouldn't know historic costume if it fell out of the sky and landed on their heads. Don't worry, I had a word with him. He made those statements WITHOUT consulting our charter OR even a single posting on this list. He made those statements out of his own, personal bias and he has since apologized and recanted, based on some sample postings I sent him from this list. Anyway, I happen to agree that such a group is needed, but I also agree with all those who are against lumping it in with the high noise, high flame "soc" hierarchy. We'd all like to see it placed in "rec". I'd like to ask everyone concerned with this issue, whose newsreading life could be changed by the creation of this group, to check out the proposal in news.announce.newgroups and the conversations in news.groups and consider the issues carefully and make your voices heard -- no matter how you feel about the issues involved. It's MUCH better to change or confirm things now, in the RFD stage, than to see the group lose in the CFV stage because no one spoke up to clear up some issues. -- Diane Barlow Close close@lunch.asd.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Mar 94 19:38:17 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Paper Patterns This message is copyright by Frances Grimble March 16, 1994. Actually, I did considerable research on the history of the pattern for some articles I wrote a few years ago. Far from originating in the Wild West, patterns are known to have been used as early as the 12th century, by Roman monks who made them out of slate. In the 13th century, French tailors made them out of thin wood. By the end of the 14th century, most tailors and dressmakers owned sets of patterns. The basic shape was cut out and further fitting was done on the customer. The earliest published pattern book we know of is "Libro de Geometrica Practica y Traca," by Juan de Alcega. The focus is on laying out and the patterns are not to scale. De Alcega wanted to publish a complete work on tailoring but was prevented by the Spanish guilds--patterns were passed from masters to apprentices as prized trade "secrets." Patterns published for the general public definitely existed in preVictorian times, especially in ladies' "needlework and cutting out" manuals. However, the paper pattern business really blossomed in the 1860s, with the pattern companies established by Madame Demorest and Ebenezer Butterick. By this time there was a large, verbally and mathematically literate middle class eager to keep up with rapid fashion changes and to save money by home dressmaking. And there were many magazines eager to fill the need by publishing fashion plates, sewing information, and patterns, as well as advertising patterns sold by mail. Patterns have long been popular with both professional and home clothing makers because they're easy to use. Even if the pattern requires considerable fitting after cutting out, there is still less fitting and shaping than if you drape from a rough piece of cloth. If a historic pattern is badly sized (and some certainly are) it can be fitted in cheap cloth before you cut into expensive garment fabric. Although some people prefer to drape directly in cloth, this is definitely a learned skill. When I studied clothing design, the draping classes were "advanced," and you were supposed to take them only after completing courses in sewing and flat pattern alterations. I've never really cared for draping, although I can do it. I suspect highly visual thinkers prefer draping, while logical/mathematical thinkers prefer flat pattern alterations or drafting. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 09:06:38 GMT Subject: The Great Paper Pattern & Toile Debate Marina Waltz wrote... >I also don't understand the fascination and need for a paper pattern. > > I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. In a previous > post (sometime last week, I think) someone had said something > about doing up a pattern in fabric and then transferring it to > paper. Don't really understand why anyone would want to do > that. I have found in my experience that fabric pieces make > far better patterns than paper. They stay in place when you > put them on the fabric the garment is being made from, and > they don't tear. I have also found it easier to hold up fabric > pattern pieces to see how they will need adjusting, than > paper. Paper just doesn't drape the same way that fabric > does. Fran Grimble wrote... >Although some people prefer to drape directly in cloth, this is definitely a >learned skill. When I studied clothing design, the draping classes were >"advanced," and you were supposed to take them only after completing courses >in sewing and flat pattern alterations. I've never really cared for >draping, although I can do it. I suspect highly visual thinkers prefer >draping, while logical/mathematical thinkers prefer flat pattern alterations >or drafting. In answer to Marina's statement that a paper pattern is unnecessary, I have to disagree. Once you have produced your toile by draping on the body, it is necessary to transfer this onto stiff paper (such as brown parcel paper or flip chart paper) and then you can smooth off ragged edges and ensure that you have an even seam allowance all the way round (sometimes you end up with a minimal seam allowance in places on your toile due to various adjustments that you've made). The fabric you make your toile from is also subject to a degree of distortion each time you manipulate it, and so unless you are cutting all the layers of your garment at the same time (not a good idea really), you can very easily end up with pieces that are slightly different in shape. By transferring your toile onto paper, you have something which is then guaranteed to remain the same shape each time you manipulate it, and so you can cut each layer individually, safe in the knowledge that what you end up with, will be pieces of fabric that are exactly the same shape. As to the statement that paper doesn't drape the same way that fabric does, I can only ask why you would want to drape your paper pattern? The draping is done entirely with the fabric toile, and the paper pattern is merely the template that you use when you are ready to cut out the fabric that will make up your final garment. Fran's statement that draping (i.e. toile making) is definitely a learned skill is complete codswallop! When I started making authentic Tudor costumes for recreation at Kentwell Hall four years ago, I had very little skill in sewing (got my mother to do most of it) and NO experience in toile making (neither did my mother). We managed okay and produced a very respectable middle class male costume. Since then we have improved no end and I help draft my brother's patterns now (he started last year). I have never been on sewing and flat pattern alteration courses, in fact I have never even used a commercial pattern. My message to everybody is that toile making is most definitely NOT difficult! By the way, I am highly visual (nearly eidetic memory) but am extremely logical (I'm a computing person). I think that to do any kind of costume making, whether it be from commercial patterns or from toiles, you need to have a good idea of what the finished thing is supposed to look like and it's probably a lot easier to visualise something that is being drafted directly from the body than it is to visualise something that's on a sheet of paper with lots of lines all over the place. I've been sent a copy of my toile making article and will look into refining it and will post it to the list again as soon as I get the opportunity. Watch this space!!! Ed Jannoo ---------------------------- From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 13:05:20 GMT Subject: Basic toile making instructions As promised, here's the resend of my toile making instructions of last week. Note that these are only BASIC instructions (more of an overview really). -- My opinion on using paper patterns for historical costume making is that if you do use them, you should only LOOK at them to see the general shape that they need to be, and then set them aside and proceed as follows: a) Make yourself a toile by draping calico on your body and pinning/tacking it along where the seams will be to get a rough idea of what shape you need for your body. Cut the calico down to nearly the right size and then redrape and refine the shape so that you have a very close fitting calico shell. If, whilst making your toile, you make it the right style for the garment you wish to produce (i.e. if you are producing a mid C16 English man's doublet, you would shape it to go down to a point at the front and have a highish back) you end up with a pattern that is PERFECT for you. b) Lay the pieces of the toile flat on large pieces of paper, draw round them and cut them out to obtain a paper pattern. Write on the paper pattern exactly what the garment it is intended for is (including what year it is needed for). c) Using your new paper pattern, cut out the pieces of fabric, lining and interlining and sew up as per usual. d) File your new pattern and your toile away somewhere safe, ready for the next time you need to make something. The great advantage of this approach is that, whilst the making of the initial toile takes some time and needs two people, once you've got it, you can use it again and again, modifying the paper pattern you produce to whatever style you need (provided you don't change shape that is!). Use calico (tightly woven cotton based material - non-stretchy. Also comes in synthetic fibre, so I'm told) instead of "normal" cotton (too stretchy) to make your toile so that you don't get a distorted pattern. -- If I can find a better description amongst my Kentwell costume notes that does not require diagrams, I'll rephrase it (it's copyrighted) and post it to the list. (When I get some time that is! Work work work!) There are probably a few good books in your local library that give a better idea of how to draft patterns by using a toile and it's definitely worth taking a look at these. Ed Jannoo (Recreator of Tudor Life at Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk, England) ---------------------------- From: wtmp18185@ggr.co.uk Date: 17 Mar 94 14:05:00 BST Subject: Patterns Responding to Fran Grimble's comments, I would like some further clarification. It seems to me that two different things are under discussion. One, which is probably as old as fashion, involves a line drawing of the garment, or pattern pieces of the garment analysing the shapes necessary to achieve the line/look of the garment. This is probably as old as fashion - even if only with a stick in the dust by a master teaching an apprentice. The second is, I would argue, very different. This is a sized drawing of the garment pieces, using some kind of standardised sizing system, which it is intended the home dressmaker will use as a template for making the garment. It is this which was invented in the 19th century, is wildly popular today and has the major weakness, to my mind, which is that it uses a standardised sizing system! We are not all the same shape, people of the same size vary incredibly. If you doubt this, I suggest you try and find a friend who has made a garment by the toile system and who is the same size as you and borrow the garment. One the one occasion I did this I found myself totally unable to bring my arms forward - she has much broader shoulders than I have - although the rest of the garment fitted (well, it went round me). By the way, could I have more information on the Roman monks of the 12 th century making drawings on slate. I assume this means monks based in Rome - but surely any monk interested in fashion, except to disapprove of it - shoud have been doing penance?! Caroline ---------------------------- Date: 17 Mar 1994 10:44:13 U From: "George Angell" Subject: Berry Stains Subject: Time:10:32 AM OFFICE MEMO Berry Stains Date:3/17/94 We are currently mounting a production of _Dancing at Lughnasa_. One of the actresses has to smear a handful of berries across her dress or blouse. Can anyone think of a way of doing this without needing a new blouse/dress every night? The action and its results need to be clearly seen by the audience. Is there any combination of fabric and fake "berry juice" that would come clean in the wash? Any other ideas? ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:15:36 -0330 (NST) From: Wendi Granter Subject: Re: Need coins for costume... On Fri, 11 Mar 1994, CJ Smith wrote: > If it really doesn't matter what country they're from, French > 10centime pieces meet all your requirements. The 10c piece is worth > maybe three cents US and is gold-colored. They're about nickel-sized > if I remember right (but thinner than a nickel). I've got a few rolls > of them somewhere at home, but if you need a large number, try a bank > that does money changing; they might be willing to sell you a mass of > their coinage. > > Good luck! > > How are you going to drill holes through all of those? My wrists hurt > just thinking about it! > > --CJ > While still in highschool, I met an exchange student from Japan who gave me a few coins. They already have holes in the centre. It will be expensive to ship from Japan, but it'll save on your wrists. M-JdV ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 12:06:09 EST From: BHFF000 Subject: industrial sissors Does anyone know any place in the States (or Canada) where I could get some good industrial sissors with a contoured handle? By contoured I mean shaped to the hand. I just came across a pair owned by an italian tailor I know, and he claims they are only available in Italy, but I thought I'd see if anyone could prove differently... Thanks! Stacy ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 10:28:11 PDT From: Cindy Subject: industrial sissors They're purveyors to professional tailoring, millinary, theater and even laundry persons. Greenburg & Hammer 24 W. 57th St New York, NY 10019-3918 800.955.5135 --cin Cynthia Barnes internet: cin@caere.com "Very foolish to kill all the servants. Now we dont even know where the marmelade is." --Agatha Christie ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 14:10:52 -0800 From: marg@interval.com (Margaret Minsky) Subject: Re: Definitions >Calico 100% cotton tightly woven broadcloth printed with small > flowers (usually)--most often used in quilts > and crafts and sometimes "country-style" > garments > When people suggest using calico for toiles, I think some of then actually mean gingham, which is cotton or blend broadcloth woven with colored checks. This makes it easy to see grain lines and even to do measurements directly on the toile. ---------------------------- End of Volume 74 -----------------------