From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 18:26:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 76, 3/22/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 76, March 22, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Mourning dress/Colors of mourning Non-mourning black Berry stains Query: Appropriate color for afternoon tea dance More good looking costumes for larger folks Question: Walking sticks Threads magazine ---------------------------- From: sclark@epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: mourning dress Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 17:28:06 -0500 (EST) Hello all-- I have no idea whether this is a reference to proper mourning dress, byt Margaret Wade Labarge's _Simon de Montfort_ discusses what Eleanor Plantagenet wore after the death of her first husband--and russet is mentioned as the colour most appropriate to widows and those who had taken vows of celebacy. Russet, is, of course, one of the easiest dyes to obtain and is thus associated with poverty. Since widows were always considered 'poor" in the eyes of the Church (regardless of income) and thus under Church protection, the connection is obvious. However, I have no idea whether this was considered mourning dress for the rest of the population, or whether it was merely the 13th century equivalent of "widow's weeds". Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark University of Toronto sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 15:36:07 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Black as NON mourning garb... I seems to remember reading somewhere that black was worn as a basic color in non-mourning dresses as well during the Victorian era (usually in shiny fabrics). Is this true? If so for the entire era or only one part? When looking at old b&w photos it's hard to tell if the dresses are black or navy, but some of the ones I've seen do seem to substantiate this. I'd love to make a nice black dress and not have to be assumed to be in mourning! Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------------ Subject: Re: Berry Stains Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 15:38:27 PST From: Elizabeth Miles George Angell wrote: > [...] Is > there any combination of fabric and fake "berry juice" that would come clean > in the wash? Any other ideas? I'm not sure about fake berry juices, but a technique I use to protect pots from the soot of fires may work... in the case of the pots, I take a paper towel with some dish detergent and cover the exterior before placing it over the fire; the soot just rinses off, regardless of how long it sits after dinner. You might try soaking the blouse concerned in a similar soap solution and letting it dry, and then test-staining it with the juice to see if the soap helps prevent the stain. The actress may have to be careful about suds if she gets too enthusiastic smearing the berries, though. :) Pojundery- Elizabeth Elizabeth_Miles@hmc.edu ------------------------------------ Subject: Re: Black as NON mourning garb... Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 16:59:38 PST From: Walter Nelson Loren Black was definitely worn by men after about 1855, for almost all occasions, day or evening. In fact, for anything but the informal (in the Victorian sense) sack suit, black was the only acceptable color for the coat, and was often worn for trousers, hat and vest as well (the alternative shade being charcoal gray). Women also, particularly in the 1870s and 80s, seem to have worn black frequently, simply because it looks classy, especially in the silks and other light fabrics that were popular in the bustle era. I have several photographs in my collection of women who appear to be wearing black, and some of them are posed with their families. I have seen a fair number of pictures from the 70s and 80s of women in black, and fairly few from the 50s and 60s of women in black. I think the distinguishing feature between full mourning and a black dress is the lace veil worn in full mourning. Of course, this is all from memory, and I can quote no citable sources. Spanish and Latin American women also seem to have been extremely fond of black (odd, considering the weather in their part of the world, but there it is). Cheers, Walter Nelson ------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 17:03:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Lizbeth Langston, UCR Physical Sciences Library" Subject: appropriate color for an afternoon tea dance? Hello, everyone-- I will be going to a 4:30-8:30pm tea dance -- Ragtime era. I have a question on appropriate women's attire for a dance held at that time of day. I know that dress is not as formal as later in the evening. All I have seen for early-century afternoon wear in photos, costume books, and fashion mags tends to show white or ecru soft linen or cotton dresses, with pleats, tucks, and French embroidery-type trims. Is that characteristic? I am particularly interested in "later Ragtime era," that is 1912-1918. My hidden agenda: I will be trying a pattern for the first time and happen to have some light grey linen/cotton on hand that I'd like to use. Is that appropriate? [I don't want to make a social faux pas] If so, what, if any colors may I use for trim, topstitching, contrasts, etc.? Shall I stay with grey, or may I use a brighter color, such as red, violet, or green? Also, I know that the "Exotic" look (bright colors, dramatic designs) came in with the Ballets Russes, but want to know if that translated into afternoon wear, as opposed to evening wear. Thanks very much: Lizbeth Langston langston@ucrac1.ucr.edu ------------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 94 01:36 GMT From: SCM.MANKER@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Nichols, Kristen) Subject: Re: Suggestions Another suggestion for Guy's wife is a Spanish surcote. Sorry, I do not have dates off of the top of my head. Could someone provide them for him. I do know there is a VERY easy description on how to make one in Janet Winter and Carolyn Savoy's book Elizabethan Costuming. I do not know how historically acurate their garment is, but it may suit your purpose. K- ------------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 94 01:33 GMT From: SCM.MANKER@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Nichols, Kristen) Subject: Re: Colours of Mourning (longi >a colour of mourning I know of in the western tradition is >that royal widows in France were supposed to wear white. See >references to this in the dress of Henry VIII's widowed sister >after her brief royal marriage. >Janice Liedl >Laurentian University, Canada >JLIEDL@NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA~ There are also references to Mary Queen of Scots wearing white after the death of her 1st husband, the Dauphin of France. If is rather ironic that she also wore white at her wedding. K- ------------------------------------ From: ERSZEBET BATHORY Subject: The Etiquette of the Walking-Stick Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 15:40:29 PST Greetings. I was referred to this address by someone on the Sherlock Holmes mailing list. I would like to get some information from costumers or anyone else in the know, pertaining to the various kinds of walking sticks carried in Britain during the latter half of the 19th century and on into the early part of the 20th, to wit: class and gender distinctions associated with them, materials of which they were made, the significance of the shape of the handle, the general significance of sticks themselves, gestures one might make with one's stick, and so on. Referrals to helpful books would be lovely too. I'd like to know more about this address, too. The person who gave it to me said that it is a theater-oriented mailing list...? Thank you very much. Erszebet Bathory -------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes Erszebet Bathory terrible things happen quite naturally... orsino@apple.com ------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 08:50:20 -0700 (MST) From: DIANA PATTERSON Subject: Non-mourning black Black is an interesting subject--how black _is_ black? In about 1759 (I can look up the date if anyone is really interested) the Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce (now the Royal Society for Arts--and still in the same location in London) put out a request for submissions for dyes that were really _black_. The RSA library still has a sample of one of the pieces of fabric in their correspondence book. Now if people are still trying to get a good black in 1759, what did black look like in the Renaissance? Black, by the way, was _very fashionable_ during the Interregnum for the puritans, and in all painting of the period, including those wonderful Dutch domestic paintings, the black is very black indeed. But was it in reality black any more than the faces were unblemished by pox marks or moles or warts? Diana Patterson Mount Royal College Calgary DPatterson@MtRoyal.AB.CA ------------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 1994 12:22:14 U From: "George Angell" Subject: Black as Mourning Subject: Time:12:14 PM OFFICE MEMO Black as Mourning Date:3/20/94 Just a note: The traditional color of mourning in Scandanavian countries is *white*. See Strindberg's _Ghost Sonata_. ------------------------------------ From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 11:52:38 GMT Subject: Re: toiles >Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but there's an article in the >current Threads about draping a bodice and taking a basic pattern from it. What is "Threads"? If you are talking about a USENET newsgroup, what is the name of the group? Ed Jannoo - jannoo@bnr.co.uk ------------------------------------ From: Gregory Stapleton To: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 09:36:35 TZ Subject: Re: toiles Hi, Ed: It's a sewing (and related pursuits) magazine published on this side of the pond. I've only read a couple of issues, but it seems to be of very high calibre as far as content goes. yours in service, gregory ---------- ------------------------------------ Subject: Re: Non-mourning black Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 08:50:24 PST From: Walter Nelson Black was popular with Puritans for two reasons. The first, it looks sober and sedate, which suited well their religious view, but it was also popular because it was the favorite color of the merchant class from the mid 16th Century to, perhaps, the 20th. The Calvinist movement was very strong among the merchants. It was also the favored by doctors, lawyers, clergymen and magisrates. It was the badge of the respectable. (Note, Puritans of the Peasant and Artisan classes did not generally wear black--it was too expensive and would probably have been considered a bit uppity) It's tough to say how black black was, but I for one am reluctant to dismiss the evidence provided by Dutch painters of the 16th and 17th Centuries (as some people of my acquaintance have done) as being unreliable and tainted by some artistic desire to achieve an asthetic ideal at the expense of verismillitude. While paintings cannot be taken as absolute proof of the color of one dye or another, I think they can be taken as positive evidence in that direction. Not everyone's faces WERE pock-marked and warted then, just as not everyone's are now, and many portraits were done, "warts and all". The Dutch painters (and others as well) were trying hard to achieve a compelling depiction of reality, and the subtlties of the shades they achieve show that they were not trapped by primitive paint technology into depicting the world in primary colors. If Hoefnagel or Breugel shows something as black, I for one, think it probably was (have a look at the Lord and the Priest in Breugel's "Wedding Party"). Cheers, Walter Nelson ------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 09:05:36 PDT From: Cindy Subject: mourning dress Hello all-- I have no idea whether this is a reference to proper mourning dress, byt Margaret Wade Labarge's _Simon de Montfort_ discusses what Eleanor Plantagenet wore after the death of her first husband--and russet is mentioned as the colour most appropriate to widows and those who had taken vows of celebacy. Russet, is, of course, one of the easiest dyes to obtain and is thus associated with poverty. Since widows were always considered 'poor" in the eyes of the Church (regardless of income) and thus under Church protection, the connection is obvious. However, I have no idea whether this was considered mourning dress for the rest of the population, or whether it was merely the 13th century equivalent of "widow's weeds". Susan, Eleanor, what a gal! Not too many women get to marry 2 kings of 2 different countries. Or go on the First Crusade and live to tell the tale. I thought Eleanor of Aquitaine had her first marriage annuled. Her family was so powerful, owning 1/3 of what is now France, that she even got her dower property back. So why was she in mourning for Phillipe of France? They apparently had something of a tiff that became worse when the 2 daughters found out they were suddenly considered bastards and unable to inherit. Her 7 or so kids by Henry II of England (Henry Plantegenet) included Richard the Lionhearted (Richard III) and John Lackland who's featured as King John in "Robin Hood". All that aside, widows still may have worn russet. Dont know. As for taking of holy orders and vows of celebacy, the uniform depends on the order. Who's Simon de Montfort? A contemporary of Eleanor? Did she make some eye witness account of mourning for a Ex, who in the eyes of the church had never been a relation? Confused, --cin cin@caere.com ------------------------------------ From: JLIEDL@nickel.laurentian.ca Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 13:39:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: non-mourning black I largely agree with Walter Nelson's post regarding non-mourning black as a popular colour with a broad range of European society (mercantile & upper classes) from about 16th c. on (I would amend that to approx. 1400 onwards). The real problem was not so much in getting a true black (though that existed--there were reported problems of rusty blacks, purply blacks and so forth; especially with cheaper dyes and fabrics), the real problem was durability of the colours! Black dyes were notorious for easily fading and needing to be re-dyed to restore their colour. Light, washing, just plain time could break down the dye chemicals and "wash out" the colour. For the 16th/17th take on this problem, consult a work like Alciatus' Book of Secrets. (Also has period recipes for drycleaning!) So the real accomplishment of modern chemistry has been in giving us true & lasting black dyes! Janice Liedl Laurentian University, Canada JLIEDL@NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA ---------------------------- End of Volume 76 -----------------------