From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 15:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 96, 4/27/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 96, April 27, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Setting dyes HMSO Historic costume publications Men's legwear 1200-1600/hose continued Seeking source for Period Costumes for Stage and Screen More info on Victorian Clothing Fair (SF Bay area) More on Corsets Textile Conference, University of Manchester, UK Historic Stitches ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:45:27 -0400 From: dlb17@psu.edu (Dianna L. Bourke) Subject: setting dyes I recently purchased several batik t-shirts and I am half afraid to wash them with anything else due to dye bleeding. I remember reading on this list about dyeing and the like and I know that there is some ratio of salt to water used to set dyes, but I have no idea what that ratio would be. Can anyone help? I would do this in a washing machine on a small load setting. Thanks so much Dianna Overworked in Hazleton! Dianna L. Bourke Penn State Hazleton ---------------------------- From: eeross@okway.okstate.edu Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 10:39:02 CDT Subject: Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume ... >source for these is a book put out by the Museum of >London, which is part of a series covering, in amazing >detail, the clothing and accessories of 14th Century >England. They do this by examining original surviving >pieces. I'm afraid I don't remember the title, and we >don't own the books, since they are horribly expensive. >We borrowed them from an anal-retentive authenticity >psycho of our acquaintance (I mean that in a nice way). The source sounds like "Dress Accessories, c.1150-c.1450", put out by the London Museum in the series "Medieval finds from excavations in London." It is one of only two of the volumes still available, though scarce, and it costs around $100 the last I saw. The volumes are: Shoes and pattens / Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard HMSO, 1988 Textiles and clothing: c.1150-c.1450 / Elisabeth Crowfoot et al. HMSO, 1992 Dress Accessories, c.1150-c.1450 / Geoff Egan and Frances Pritchard HMSO, 1991 Knives and scabbards / J. Cowgill et al. HMSO, 1987 The last dealer I spoke with said that they were all out of print and would probably not be printed again, since they are not as popular in Great Britain as they are here. They seem to be valuable sources since they are dealing with actual period remnants, and they contain both pictures and drawn reconstructions, along with speculations as to period techniques. I borrowed them through our university inter-library loan. Ellen Ross Stillwater, OK PS, my buttons came out kind of flat and lumpy as well, but I shall keep practising. ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 09:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Gault Subject: hunnisett book I have been trying to find a paperback copy of Period costume for stage and screen (1800-1900 or something like that). The bookstore (b'dalton) can only get the hardcover and it's 40.00. That's way too much for me to spend. Does anybody know of any bookstores that I can order from? Thanks. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Ariane Gauthier Kingdom of An Tir, Barony of Glymm Mere * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * * "I'll think about it tomorrow!" * ***************************************************************** ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 11:52:48 PDT From: Cindy Subject: Re: Victorian Clothing Fair It's open to the public, (otherwise I wouldnt have posted). Our intent, is to outfit the newer members of the association. There's a docent training class that that starts at the begining of May and ends on 11 June. --cin >Is this event open to the public, or should we expect >to become on-the-spot members if we want to come? > >Thanks. >Naomi ---------------------------- From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 23:56:30 CDT Subject: RE: Corsets > From: "Insufficient Virtual ... um ... err ..." > > > Front lacing > > It seems that all corsets from the middle to the end of the 19th century > were back laced, but closed with hooks (from 4 to 6) in the front. > > From a catalogue ("Secrets d'elegance, 1750-1950") I counted that out of > the 7 corsets (called "corps" in the catalogue) made between 1740 and 1770, > 4 are laced in the front and in the back (all the other just in the back). Ahh! then for far a corset to have front lacing would not be completly unrealistic or non-authentic provided you are looking at the 1740 to 1850 time period. Now how about those speed laces. Basicly they are metal loops which have a nylon cord running through them which slides real easy. On the newer US Army boots you only need to pull the top of the laces and instantly the whole boot tightens up proportunatly. Whould they work on corsets also. It could make lacing a lot easier. dennis ---------------------------- From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 08:48:06 BST Subject: Re: men's legwear 1200-1600 ----- Susannah wrote ----- We use a drawstring for the waist because braies had them, and it seems a bit silly to have your hose fall down for lack of a bit of extrapolation, but this is controversial. The codpiece is shield-shaped, and the top is an inch or so below the waistline. Then all you have to do is the pairs of point holes - do these to match the positions of the points on your doublet or pourpoint (assuming you have one). You need at least 7 sets of points. ----- End of Susannah's stuff ----- Using a drawstring to hold the hose up is unnecessary since you point them to your doublet and you don't generally wander around without your doublet. Note also that the codpiece may be more than just the codflap you describe, depending on the year you intend the hose for, you may have a fully fledged codpiece, made out of up to 5 pieces of fabric (depending on the shape and extravagance you desire) and stuffed with kapok or something. ----- Robert wrote (Even more deleted!) ----- Judging by the comments hosen did not change much for a long period. ... What is the American term for "toiles"? Scissors? Pinking shears? ----- End of Robert's stuff ----- It depends on the period you are looking at - long hose were very popular in the medieval period and were worn by peasants right up to the mid 16th century. In the 16th century though, hose did change quite a bit (more so for the middle and upper classes than for us peasants), first there were the upper hose, worn with nether hose or gaiters. These then became varied, with slashes and panes appearing, which then became trunk hose (which themselves went through various different shapes and sizes) and venetians followed. A toile is the material pattern you obtain by draping and pinning on your body. I believe it's called a muslin over in America, but no doubt somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Regards, Ed ---------------------------- From: Susannah Gort Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:41:00 Subject: Re: men's legwear 1200-1600 In reply to Robert Gleason's second set of questions: Feet: You sound about right. Most of the hose I've seen made had just stirrups, so maybe someone else can help here. Braies: These were the standard undergarment for a _long_ time, no problem there. Split hose: As the century progressed these became more and more the clothes of the poor. Many pictures of farm labourers show them, but the rich have full hose. Certainly by mid-15c (start of the period I work in) only utter scum wore split hose. However, under a houpellande I doubt you could see ;) Point of interest: Sumptuary laws said that everyone below a certain (reasonably high) income had to wear a doublet whose skirts covered their 'private parts'. Ergo, since these laws were almost universally ignored, and since I have sundry pictorial evidence otherwise, doublet skirts were short. Especially those heavily pleated C15 ones. >What is the American term for "toiles"? Scissors? Pinking shears? Er, no. A 'toile' is a pattern cut on the body or on a dress form, in cloth. Susannah _______________________________________________________________________________ Susannah Gort, Computer Assistant, Mathematics Institute University of Warwick, Coventry, West Midlands, England sjg@maths.warwick.ac.uk maaad@csv.warwick.ac.uk maaad, baaad and dangerous to know........ ---------------------------- From: Susannah Gort Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:53:18 +0100 Subject: The MUseum of London books My local bookshop seems to think that Textiles & Clothing and Dress Accessories are in print, and Knives and Scabbards may be out of print. I din't ask about Shoes and Pattens. However, there's an HMSO shop in Birmingham - I'll try and get in this weekend and ask. Susannah _______________________________________________________________________________ Susannah Gort, Computer Assistant, Mathematics Institute University of Warwick, Coventry, West Midlands, England sjg@maths.warwick.ac.uk maaad@csv.warwick.ac.uk maaad, baaad and dangerous to know........ ---------------------------- From: Susannah Gort Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 12:02:27 +0100 Subject: Hose and codpieces Ed Jannoo points out that a drawstring is technically unnecessary - yep, but it does reduce the strain on the points; it can be darned inconvenient in a battle to have your points rip out. Admittedly, a bit of leather can help too. On codpieces; I agree that around C16 the better off had stuffed codpieces, but Robert was wanting C14 and early C15 references for pleb kit, so I suggested the shield shape. Susannah _______________________________________________________________________________ Susannah Gort, Computer Assistant, Mathematics Institute University of Warwick, Coventry, West Midlands, England sjg@maths.warwick.ac.uk maaad@csv.warwick.ac.uk maaad, baaad and dangerous to know........ ---------------------------- From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 13:11:34 BST Subject: Re: Hose and codpieces >On codpieces; I agree that around C16 the better off had stuffed codpieces, but >Robert was wanting C14 and early C15 references for pleb kit, so I suggested >the shield shape. Sorry, I couldn't remember what period Robert was after so I posted that general statement about codpiece sizes increasing with time. Hopefully somebody may have found it to be useful. I don't do any battle reenactment, so perhaps my hose aren't put through as much stress at any one particular moment (although wearing them more or less continuously for three to four weeks probably makes the total stress more) I do however do quite a bit of court dance, including galliards which do put a lot of stress on various parts of the costume. I've found that the seams go much easier than the points do (never had a popped point) and it is quite often the seams that you would expect to be okay (such as crotch seam in baggy hose) How authentic do you think a drawstring on your hose is? I've not heard of this being used before and would certainly not use it myself (the slight pressure on my back would give me back ache - I'm funny like that!) but there are probably some I know who would. Ed ---------------------------- From: Susannah Gort Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:48:03 +0100 Subject: Hose Ed Jannoo says: >I've found that the seams go much easier than the points do (never had a popped point) Fascinating. Different construction techniques I guess. I think you said you don't line your hose? Maybe that's it. We get the crotch splits, yes, but it's the fabric that rips, not the seams. And a good few points rip out over the course of a weekend; usually the centre back. It's not _just_ bill work producing different stresses, because it happens to the gunners, who don't do bill practice. >How authentic do you think a drawstring on your hose is? I've not heard of >this being used before As I said initially, we haven't found any definite evidence that one was used, but there is evidence for a drawstring in braies of the period, and because we've found it so useful, have bent our 'no evidence so you can't have it' rule, on the grounds that the intellectual leap isn't very great. But then to a modern mind, the leap from pleats to darts isn't that big, and we wouldn't dream of using darts. If anyone _can_ provide evidence, either of hose with a drawstring or comments about the introduction of the method, I shall be muchly interested. Susannah _______________________________________________________________________________ Susannah Gort, Computer Assistant, Mathematics Institute University of Warwick, Coventry, West Midlands, England sjg@maths.warwick.ac.uk maaad@csv.warwick.ac.uk maaad, baaad and dangerous to know........ ---------------------------- From: csy20688@ggr.co.uk Date: 27 Apr 94 15:35:00 BST Subject: Hose (A Footnote) I have more experience in making upper hose (16th century) than nether hose or long hose, but I have managed to make a skin-tight, creaseless pair of upper hose and am working on the nether hose! An alternative aid in drafting hose is an old pair of (tight) jeans, which can be cut along the new seam lines (remember to allow seam allowance). I always seem to need to add a gusset in the crotch! However, the crucial thing in making hose is the fitting - it is amazing how much can be taken out even in the final stages (just ignore complaints about pins!) The thing that always amazes me about Brugel's characters is the lack of baggyness - the hose seem to fit like a second skin. Referring to Suzannah's points to Jannoo - often Brugel's men show the centre back point unpointed (causing some bagginess!) and I have found that this is the most likely one to go and often recommend it be left unpointed. I line my upper hose, but not (so far) the netherhose. I echo Ned Jannoo's previous point, that if you are wearing a doublet (often sleeveless) and pointing hose to them, then a drawstring waistband is not needed. Has anyone any evidence on when drawstrings came in? It seems they were not used on shirts/smocks until the 17th century, they were not used on aprons until the late 16th century. Can it be that in the medieval period they were only used on braies? Now there's a thought! Some notes on Feet As has been said before, knitted hose come in in the second half of the 16th century - before that its woven hose, and trying to find the stretchiest wool you can find. The following is taken from a 15th century pattern which can be extended to long hose, or used for nether hose for men or women. This is going to be very difficult without diagrams, but here goes! The leg seam goes up the back of the leg. The foot seam goes around the sole just above where you would tread on it. In order to put it on (an minimise bagginess) the material running from the toes up the front of the leg as high as you want the hose needs to be 'hinged' just where the foot bends (is there a word for this line?). This hinge is created by cutting out a 'U' from the top fabric, with a matching 'U' added to the sole fabric, just about where the instep is on the inside of the foot - with a matching 'U' on the outside. The 'U' needs to run up most of the height of the foot - to increase the hinge. There needs to be a certain amount of material (say 5 cms) behind the 'U' to the back seam to give room for the heel. Using this I have managed to get smooth tight fitting nether hose for a man (small calves, small feet) but am getting extra creases on mine (large calves, small ankles, small feet) - I shall try again! I dont' know if I have missed your biog Suzannah, but which group is 'we' - always interested to hear of new groups in the UK Caroline ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:33:29 -0500 (CDT) From: JENNIFER CARLSON Subject: Corsets Goodness! Who opened the floodgates? I was away from work a couple of days, and couldn't believe the number of posts that had come in on this subject. Anyway, I have an example of how to lace yourself into a back-lacing corset. In the movie "We're No Angels" (Humphrey Bogart, Peter Ustinov, Aldo Ray), there is a scene in which Bogart, repairing a roof, looks through a hole in it and sees his employer's wife getting herself laced up. She stands with her back to the bedpost, and using extra long laces, passes each one around the bedpost. Holding tight and leaning forward, moving her arms in kind of a cross-country skiing motion, she tightens up the corset. She then takes both laces in one hand and with the other, holds them in place at the back bottom of the corset. She then manouevers the laces from around the bedpost, wraps them around her waist a couple of times, and ties them in front. Voila! Proper Edwardian figure, no husband/maid necessary. My corseting experience has been working with larger figures and Elizabethan styles: laced up the back, and requiring help to get into. If they can be made with a front closure that won't show through the gown, I'd like to try it. Jennifer Carlson JLC@vax2.utulsa.edu ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:51:58 -0500 (CDT) From: JENNIFER CARLSON Subject: Men's leggings An SCA acquaintance of mine, Master Colin, and I once spent a delightful after- noon discussing transitional men's clothing in late 15th century Italy (his specialty). His research in the field had led him to the conclusion that only men who were well-to-do AND conscious of the cutting edge of fashion had hose that fitted correctly at the ankle, because they had their servants sew them in every morning. Men who dressed like this tended to be young and flashy - older men, even wealthy ones, didn't seem as concerned about showing off a well- turned ankle. His studies had also followed the transition in Italy from parted hose to the single unit style, and development of the codpiece. He drew his examples from the numerous depictions of the martyrdom of St. Sebastian, in which the archers are almost invariably dressed casually: stockings rolled down, points undone, parted hose with the braies showing, ect. When I had first met him, he was wearing a very nice doublet and shirt, and what looked for all the world like those tight, spandex bicycling shorts. I thought he just didn't give a whoop about authenticity, until he showed me that the "shorts" were actually a pair of nether stockings, with point holes for the stockings to lace into, his stockings at that time being rolled down around his ankles, like those in the paintings he later spoke of. I might suggest, for the poster who was commenting about their tights pulling down in the center back, that you don't have enough ease in the back crotch measurement. Next time you measure for the crotch seam, hold the tape measure in place at the front waist, and loosely between two fingers at the back waist, then sit down. The tape will slide between your fingers to automatically adjust to the measurement you need for crotch + ease. Adjust your pattern accordingly. This has been a fun and highly informative topic! Jennifer Carlson JLC@vax2.utulsa.edu ---------------------------- Subject: Re: men's legwear 1200-1600 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 10:09:47 PDT From: Walter Nelson Robert Yes, hosen and brays are fine for the coathardie/houpelande era, though the one piece hose start appearing in the houpelande era (late 14th/early 15th Century. They are fine for labor. If it was hot, or the work might require excessive bending and streaching, the points on the end of the hose could be loosened, making the hose baggier and less confining, or they could be untied and rolled down the leg. They are fine for armor too, though I have never worn leg armor. I would imagine you would need something much like them, if only to have something between the steel and the tender flesh. Cheers, Walter Nelson ---------------------------- From: blktauna@netaxs.com (Donna Bowers) Subject: Textile Conference Date: 26 Apr 1994 16:47:50 GMT For those among you who may be interested: this comes from the Medieval Dress and Textile Society newsletter. ================================================================== The Bi-ennial 2-day conference of the Early Textile Study Group will be held on the evening of Friday 9th to afternoon of Sunday 11th of September 1994. Ashbourne Hall, University of Manchester. The subject is Early Ite ms of Clothing. Papers to be presented cover Pharonic Egypt to the late 16th century, including the following; J. Arnold "Clothes from 16th century tombs of the Medici in Florence" Dr. B. Cooke with J.P. Wild "Clothing at Vindolanda" Dr. Jeroussalimskaja "Clothing found in 8-9th century tombs in Northern Caucasus as a source for the history of the Middle Ages" N. Kajitani "Hair coverings from Roman egypt in the collection of the MMA" D.King "dress in Roman & Byzantine Egypt" Dr. M. Nockert "Fragments of Migration Period clothing from graves in Scandinavia and a 14th cent. parti-colored dress in Sweden" Dr. K. Otavsky " the dalmatic of Wenceslas IV in Prague" Dr. J. Scarce "Late 16th cent. Ottoman Turkish garments in the National Museum of Scotland." P. Sykas "the importance of Constructional Sewing and its Preservation" K. Watts "14th century cloth pourpoints" Conference and full board and lodging 90 per person. Details and booking form from: Mrs. Karen Finch OBE FRSA 7 Western Gardens London W5 3RS (please enclose SAE) ====================================================================== ---------------------------- Subject: Re: hose Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 10:18:41 PDT From: Walter Nelson Ed I understand that many original hose were lined, but lining does introduce many interesting problems with fitting, since linen and wool behave differently. I once had a lined pair of hose that failed miserably, so now I wear an unlined pair. Under this I wear a pair of knee socks (available from me BTW), and my linen brays go down to my knees. So, I only have wool against my flesh when I bend my knees, and then only my knees are exposed--and they are accustomed to abuse. Cheers, Walter Nelson ---------------------------- From: MMS6824@tntech.edu Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 13:05:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Stiching Hi, This may seem like a very basic question to some of you but, I don't know. What type of sewing stiches were used to sew clothing together, pre sewing machine? I would love to make a complete historic outfit, by hand, but I really don't know what type of stiches were used to join the fabric pieces. Thanks - Mary Spila (SCA: Marian, CLann Kyle) ---------------------------- End of Volume 96 -----------------------