From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 17:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 108, 6/7/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 108, June 7, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu To get an index of available back issues of the digest, send a message with the words: index h-costume in the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.asd.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume hcos.yymmdd to retrieve the volumes you want. Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Dress and Undress colonial style Question and answers: Prostitutes' clothing on the Wild Frontier Seeking: Someone to split Stanford Historic Dance Workshop ticket ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:44:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: dressing colonial style After answering some question in a private email, I thought I'd send the rather lengthy result on to the whole list. Hope none of you other esteemed ladies disagree with my comments too completely? >Let's say you have on your shift and corset. Do you next tie the petticoats >around your waist, followed by the dress? Is the bodice usually connected to >the skirts, or is it a separate piece laced on over the corset? OK ... that's two questions. (1) yes. More or less. After shift, and in either order, you add corset and POCKETS. Doesn't much matter which is first, unless your pocket string cuts into your waist, in which case, do the corset first and tie pockets on top of that. Pockets are a separate item from garment. One or two pockets, attached to a string (cotton webbing as sold today is fine ... wider than string, but I don't want to call it a band, since the pockets may or may not SLIDE on it.) A pocket is 11-14 " deep, about 6" wide. If you are showing off handiwork it is embroidered, and then may be worn as the outermost layer (in which case you don't put it on now). Recall the nursery rhyme "Lucy Locket lost her pocket; Georgie somebody found it" -- that's how one can lose a pocket. It's not attached to the garment. Each petticoat has side slits to reach the hands through to the pockets. [ Wonderful things, those pockets. I can carry nearly as much in them, as I do in my purse. And they don't show! And the fashion-goal was for a wide-hipped look, so filled-up pockets are not a detriment.] Anyway, after chemise (I think the term became SHIFT in the next century) and pockets and corset, yes, you tie on as many petticoats as you are rich enough to wear. Some tied (so you could adjust them when pregnant!) but some had a band and a button. I wear some of each. Thick fabrics I pleat into a band; light fabrics I just put onto a drawstring. Then the bodice. Most often, it is a separate piece from the skirts. Most often it has a peplum, or else is just plain long enough to come to crotch level or so. Some garments (like a CARACAO) the bodice comes down even further. I've thought that I could wear todays tights/leggings with the CARACAO top over it for a modern garment... so it comes to sorta mid thigh length. A "GOWN" -- meaning a fancy attire -- sometimes means a bodice and top petticoat layer of matching fabric. My CARACAO gown is like that. Some GOWNS do have a bodice which attaches to the skirt ... though I don't know if any of those are a whole dress as we think today. The ones I can recall, the bodice _does_ attach to the skirt ... but the skirt doesn't close in the front. The skirt edges are open, roughly going down the center point of each leg. So, again, you HAVE to have another petticoat underneath. It may match the fabric, or complement it. Some attached gowns like that were hitched up in the back with ribbons so as to create a rather bustled effect. Or at least, to accentuate the wide-hip look I mentioned. Yes, sometimes sleeves are separate and have 3-4 ties attached at the shoulder seam. This way you can take them off while cooking, and keep them clean. Or save them for good. This gets less prevalant in the high-fashion gowns by 1776, more so earlier in the centure (1725). I think detachable sleeves would be almost exclusively on a short bodice, not a full-length gown. (If you could afford fabric for a full length gown, you had sleeves attached too. And you didn't work in the kitchen in it.) Also ... if fully corsetted, you get SOMEBODY ELSE to tie on the sleeves, at least if you are already wearing the bodice. You simply cannot reach to the back or the top of your own shoulder! >Also, do you wear a stomacher, and how do you attach it? Do you pin it to >the front of the bodice or insert in between the crisscrossed bodice strings? Yes! If the bodice is designed with criss-crossed strings, or multiple ribbons which tie across the front in showy bows, then you just tie the strings/ribbons across the stomacher. Personally, I think I'd pin the stomacher to the corset first, to keep it from moving about. Also, to keep it in place WHILE tying the strings. If the bodice has just a wide lapel which meets at the waist and spread to the shoulders, then the stomacher is pinned to the bodice. With a corset on, you aren't going to bend in any funny ways so that the pins stick you! (P.S. We aren't talking about safety pins here; they weren't invented till 18xx something.) The French also wore a "pinafore" apron ... pinned afore them. It has no strings (well, the one at the waist) and was pinned at the top corners of the bib. A poor person might use long thorns to pin it. (Some plant or another has 1-2" long thorns, because I've seen some in use.) >Also, if you wear dressier clothes in your reenactment, how do the hooped >petticoats FEEL? Light and swingy, or cumbersome? Well, I haven't yet worn any hoops. Full hoops were kinda passe by 1776. They were in at the start of the century (1700-1750 maybe). Pocket "panniers" were in, but mostly worn with full court dress attire. The hooped, or panniered, silouette did not make a round bell till 18xx something (1850 or so, I think). 1700's hoops were flat ovals. You stuck out at both sides, but not front or back. Some gowns I saw in Bath, England, stuck out a good FOUR FEET on each side. You had to go through doorways sideways! The pocket panniers add on the order of 12" to each side hip (depending how big you make your panniers). I HAVE worn a "bum roll" -- which is pretty much what it sounds like. A roll about 6-10" in diameter, going from the front of one hip, around the back, to the front of the other hip. (Or maybe meeting in front) They supply the "wide hipped" look, and also make the skirt stand out. You have to make the garment with the bum roll/ panniers / hoops in mind, because if you wear a plain skirt with a bum roll added, the skirt hangs too short in the back and looks unprofessional (probably poor gals did this because they couldn't afford more skirts). If you wear the skirt designed for a bum roll, with out the bum roll ... it is too long in the back and sides, and you trip on it! None of my outfit feels cumbersome, even the four layers of skirts. I wouldn't say "light" but they do swing nicely, just by being such voluminous skirts to begin with (minimum 3 yards fabric going around you). Between the corsets and skirts, you move more slowly and in a stately manner. (Far different than in blue jeans.) The heels shoes make you move more slowly too (like today's heels do) (I switched to sneakers while still in my skirts, and moved much faster!) You find you are much WIDER than you are used to being, and you bump into things. However, a person who always wore wide skirts and had done so all her life would not have that problem. She'd be used to it. If you don't wear hoops often, they'd feel slightly awkward, as they bounce disconcertingly, and you have to move even more decorously to achieve a nice "flowing" walk. If you are rich, and wear them frequently, you'd be used to that, too. Also: even with 3-4 skirts, chemise, corset, and bodice, it is surprising to me that I DON'T feel unbearably hot. You get used to it. And if you'd worn that all your life, you would be even more used to it. The corset somewhat KEEPS you from feeling too hot, since there is no sticky skin on skin, and not way (mostly) for sweat to trickle down your front or back. I do adopt a much slower life style (consider today's Southerners), and take it easy, which helps not getting so hot that one faints away! Corsets aren't that bad either. (Remember, it's the 18xx's where they are striving for wasp waists. We 17xx'ers only want a straight posture, and a nice conical shape.) They prevent me from bending and reaching in certain ways that I want to, but if I'd been wearing them from age 5, I wouldn't be bending that way, now would I? And they give a marvelous straight back, and pulled back shoulders. (So did the cut of the bodices ... shoulders were help back more than modern's are used to.) Well, that's enough blather. If you have any more particular questions, send them on! I love talking about this! Deb baddorf@fnal.gov (Illinois area ... if in the vicinity, write, and I'll tell you where some re-enactment events are going to be!) Alright, that wasn't quite enough blather. I thought of one more thing to add. By 1776, the newest fashion (French led, of course) was using fewer stomachers. Of course, people still HAD them ... you don't throw away old gowns, and you mostly still wear them till whenever. When possible, some garments have had all the seams picked out, and were remade into the current fashion. But the height of fashion by 1776ish tended more toward closed front bodices (a row of hooks down center front) coming to a bit of a point below the waist, with the separated front skirts that I mentioned. The older fashion of wide lapels meeting at waist (with which you wore a stomacher) would more often have a closed skirt, if the skirt was attached. Otherwise, it'd be more like a jacket length thing (tight in at the waist, of course). deb baddorf@fnal.gov ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Jun 94 18:01:49 PDT From: Althea Sexton Subject: Introduction I've been lurking for a couple of weeks and have enjoyed the conversations I've read here. I feel at home and have gotten good info about wimples, which is very helpful because I'm working on a book set in early Norman England. And every description of Saxon and Norman clothing contradicts another source, so what's a writer to do? I've reduced women's garments to bliad, gunna, and wimple. Am I missing anything important? On another front, I'm working on a contiuation of my master's thesis and am looking for more information. I looked at prostitute's dress in the trans-Mississippi west from 1850-1915. I'm looking to expand my topic to encompass all pros, anywhere the custom appears. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. I'm interested in descriptions, illustrations, photographs, etc. Althea _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - \============/ - - - - - - - XXXXXXXXXXXX - {**********} | Althea L. Sexton |H| | | || | SEXTON@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU |H| | | || | ALTHEA@UIDAHO.EDU |H| | | || - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| ---------------------------- From: KeziaK@aol.com Date: Mon, 06 Jun 94 22:10:28 EDT Subject: colonial costume Hello to BADDORF@daffy.fnal.gov -- (what's your first name?) Thanks so much for your fascinating message about colonial dress. I'm working back a few decades, at around 1750, which can be a bit annoying because there's so much good material about the Rev. War period! A few questions/comments for you: 1. Is the caracao much the same as the pet-en-lair? 2. The pockets really are great, aren't they? I have photos of some beautifully embroidered pockets, and also descriptions about how women would store their fine embroidery or sewing in them, to pull out when ever they had free time. One thing I'm trying to show in my novel is that most women did not idle about, but kept their hands busy even while relaxing and visiting. 3. Stomachers -- I'm still a bit lost. Are they essential up to the French fashion in 1776? What purpose did they serve aside from ornamentation? Do they help flatten the bustline? I've read that the flat-chested look was mandatory, and the colonial portraits prove it! 4. You say you have not worn hoops, but can you offer any insight into how stiff they were? For example, if a woman sat down wrong or fell down, would the hoops bounce straight up into the air, or sort of sag and collapse a bit under the weight of the skirts? Did women have to worry about hooped skirts blowing up in a wind, exposing their legs? Or would the petticoats help stabilize them a bit? 5. Thanks for the tip about needing someone to tie your sleeves on! This is just the kind of sort-of-obvious detail that's so easy to miss! Beth ---------------------------- From: HIST_PS@vax1.utulsa.edu Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 7:14:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: Introduction I was really interested in prostitutes of the west at one period. This book I read and liked "Daughters of Joy, Sisters of mercy 1865-90 by Anne M. Butler published by the Univ. of Illinois press. This one I didn't read "Shady Ladies of the West" by Ronald dean Miller published by Western;ore Press 1985 Tucson Ariz. Hope this was helpful, Paula ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Introduction Date: Tue, 07 Jun 94 08:59:06 PDT From: Walter Nelson Welcome to the net. I would be fascinated (as would perhaps, other people on the net) with what you have found thus far on this topic. My *EXTREMELY* cursory research into this subject has turned up nothing more than a general opinion that prostitutes dressed pretty much like everyone else, though they might wear more make-up than was thought decent, and perhaps some bits of shabby, second hand finery. The "saloon girl" outfit so popular with Hollywood seems to be just the "tights" associated with stage dancers. Not a prostitute's uniform as such, but certainly an excellent way for a girl to advertise her assets. I have been rather dubious however, as to how widespread such outlandish attire would be. Am I correct, or is there more to it? Have you found enough evidence to make any generalizations as to what prostitutes wore in the old west? Soiled Doves are an important part of any western theme event, and have been subject to a lot of stereotyping and misrepresentation. Any thoughtful and scholarly research on their attire would be extremely useful to those who would like to portray western US history accurately. Please, tell us more. Walter Nelson ---------------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Introduction Date: Tue, 07 Jun 94 13:40:00 PDT Re: Prostitutes' Clothing I really don't know much of anything about it, but a friend of mine went to an SCA event as a prostitute (unfortunately, I no longer remember from where or what time period), and from the research she did for it, her costume consisted of her regular garb worn inside out! Not particularly useful for your needs, but I thought an interesting footnote on the subject anyway! - Linda Lassman ---------------------------- From: meier@SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Date: Tue, 07 Jun 1994 13:06:45 PST Subject: Looking for someone to split a Vintage/Ragtime Dance Wk. slot To those interested in Victorian/Ragtime dance: I'm looking for someone to split a membership in the upcoming Stanford Historic Dance Workshop, which will specialize in Regency, Victorian, and ragtime dance. As a founder of the Bay Area English Regency Society, my interests are much more strongly focused on the first day and a half of the event. Oh, yes, I should mention: July 3 to 8, daytime, with three evening dances. Anyway, I expect I'll only be able to get away with taking two days off work -- but perhaps there is someone out there who would be interested in going in on a membership with me? The schedule "will include illustrated presentations on dance history, costuming, period deportment, dance research, performance practices and guidelines for teaching vintage dance, along with daily review sessions and evening dances." If you too can't get away for very long that week, perhaps more than one of us could buddy up. The event only costs $190, with on- and off-campus housing options. NOTE: I am looking for women here, because they are being very strict about maintaining gender balance. If we can get a man to attend the week, we're in! Otherwise, we'll be on the waiting list...which according to dance master Richard Powers is very short. I should mention that Richard Powers is teaching, and the San Francisco Brassworks Band, the Stanford Vintage Dance Ensemble, and the Paul Price Societ Orchestra will be playing. How can you pass this up? To recap: I'm looking for one or two women to split a membership in this vintage dance week -- I only want the one-and-a-half to two days of Regency dancing, the rest is yours. Find a man and we're in! You can send me e-mail at meier@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu, or call me directly at 415-856-2259. It's guaranteed to be an excellent event -- call early and often! Please pass this message on to anyone you think might be interested. Thanks! Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER@SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER@SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Jun 94 12:00:16 PST From: "Cindy" Subject: Re: Introduction >>On another front, I'm working on a contiuation of my master's thesis and am >>looking for more information. I looked at prostitute's dress in the >>trans-Mississippi west from 1850-1915. I'm looking to expand my topic to >>encompass all pros, anywhere the custom appears. Any help you could give >>would be greatly appreciated. I'm interested in descriptions, illustrations, >>photographs, etc. >Soiled Doves are an important part of any western theme event, and have >been subject to a lot of stereotyping and misrepresentation. Any >thoughtful and scholarly research on their attire would be extremely useful >to those who would like to portray western US history accurately. >Please, tell us more. I'd like to echo Walter's request for "more more more!". As a member of San Juan Bautista's Butterfly Bloomers dance troupe, I have a similar interest. SJB was home to more than 22 saloons and brothels in the 1860s and 70s. You might find this amazing in a population of ~1200. We were the crossroads for Alta California as the El Camino connected to the port of Monterey via SJB. We have been wearing our "unmentionables" to dance in: full ruffled white petticoats, white chemises with drawstring necklines and white butterfly bloomers, black stockings with colored garters. Our nod to being a "troupe" is to have each of our ladies wear a different colored corset with matching garters, hair ribbons, chemise & drawers trim. It's nice and cool! In a book called something like "Women of the Barbary Coast" there was a picture of a San Francisco woman in her nether integuments solicting clients. I've long wondered whether this shot is what started the Hollywood and TV fad for what now looks remarkably like square dance costumes. Some costumer probably couldnt tell the difference twixt mid 19th c undergarments and late 1940s street clothes and so added the colors (tho' possibly at the request of the director of photography, art director, or some such). --cin "Miss Faith", danceuse (PS. I just checked the on-line card catalog and the book may be _The Barbary Coast: An Informal History of the San Franciso Underworld_, but it's been a few years since I looked at the picture. Also _Daughters of Joy, Sisters of Misery_ is related.) ---------------------------- End of Volume 108 -----------------------