From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 17:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 111, 6/13/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 111, June 13, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Byzantine Costume Drawers and Farthingales Makeup Description of a Lucette More on Prostitutes clothing The Legend of Juliette Bulette and the Red Light Ladies of Nevada The significance of Greensleeves Victorian Costume Fair, SF Bay area French Court Dress ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 21:16:32 CST From: "Michele M. Albert" Subject: Byzantine Costume Hello-- I'm looking for a few decent source books on Byzantine costume, preferably in the later period (1100 on). Many of the books I've been using for research don't really touch on this area in any great depth. Was their fashion senes really as static as my current (and paltry) sources imply? Any pointers in the right direction would be heartily appreciated. Thanks, Michele ---------------------------- From: E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 09:31:45 BST Subject: Re: Drawers and farthingales Drawers 'A Visual History of the 16th Century' is written by Jane Ashelford and published by Batsford (at least it is in the UK) and is a very good source of piccies for me. (But not this year though) It is widely accepted at Kentwell that authentic underwear for women is no underwear and that authentic underwear for men is braies (VERY comfortable!) I don't know whether this is one of those great Kentwell myths that began with some misinformed person many years ago and become an established 'fact' or whether it is actually correct, but since Kentwell aims to be outwardly authentic rather than wholly authentic, I haven't bothered to find out. Farthingales Having never been authentic beneath a farthingale, and having never fallen over in one, I couldn't comment on the modesty side, except to say that they do collapse gracefully when the wearer sits either on a chair/settle/form or on the ground. A friend of mine, after a large dinner one day last year lay right back on the ground and her farthingale did the right thing and hid all without needing to be told! Hint for the men: On a hot day, if you're stood talking to one or more women in farthingales, get them to sway back and forth, wafting their skirts in your direction. This will keep them cool and well as fanning you, except that you don't need to do any of them work! Long Hose After much hassle, adjustments, tears, blood, sweat... I finally decided that long hose were a bit too difficult for me to make this year (insufficient time to devote to them) so I've resorted to upper hose plus nether hose, which is probably better in the long run since I'll be able to remove my nether hose to tread daub etc. Kentwell Just a week to go until the start of this year's Historical Recreation of Tudor Life at Kentwell Hall, Suffolk, England and I've still got to do the following: Make my right shoe, Make my nether hose, Make point holes in my doublet and hose, Buttons and buttonholes on the doublet, Hat, Apron, More shirts (I have but one), Probably something else I've overlooked... So much to do, so little time to do it in! :-( I rather expect that I'll be doing things when I get there (nothing changes then) in the evenings. Ed Ned Gallant (who is a decent, lazy, good-for-nothing man who is desperately trying to learn the Angelus too! (Ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus takum...)) ---------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 10 Jun 94 10:17:00 BST Subject: Period Makeup Fran Grimble picked me up on the comment about makeup, quite rightly, so I thought I would respond. Make up is, of course, an ancient art. However, medieval scorn for the body (cleanliness is next to godliness would be virtual heresy for most of the medieval period) meant using make-up was strongly condemned as the wiles of the devil, leading men into sin - women being of course the lustful and naturally sinful sex. These attitudes (on make-up and women) tend to 'hang-on' into the 16th century. We (Kentwell I mean) therefore assume that most women would not use make-up, the only exceptions being the odd PSW around the place (a very difficult role in 1st person re-creations by the way - some visitors taking it a little too seriously) and, towards the end of the century, some court orientated people. Which leads me to my second point - Elizabeth did use make-up, white lead to create that smooth white skin included, but evidence for it being used outside court circles is scant, and she probably only used it after the 1563(?) bout of small-pox which nearly killed her. The other group using it are Henry III's group of 'favourites' in France, but then they used forks as well! Going back to Elizabeth, Hilliard's pictures would give backing evidence for make-up, but Oliver's pictures of the aging Queen would not. And on to the third point, the aim of 16th century make-up was to create a smooth, white skin (covering up skin blemishes such as small-pox scars), it does not really emphasise any other feature (judging by the pictures). The aim of modern make-up seems to be to make the eyes and mouth as large and obvious as possible, and when you are not used to it, it looks very peculiar - rather as though every woman you meet had a heavy session in bed the previous night, and has only just got up! Caroline Mistress Nell Verbum caro factum est (I think) ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 15:57:53 -0500 (CDT) From: JENNIFER CARLSON Subject: RE: Description of a LUCETTE Dear Deb, Thanks for the information on the lucette. I'm sure I can make one, but I'm having trouble following (in my head) your instructions for using it. Do you loop the thread clockwise or counter-clockwise around the points? Does the previous loop automatically come off when you turn the lucette? Does it make something resembling a chain stitch? I'm sure I can figure it out once I get one actually in my hand, but right now it's a real puzzler. And when did these things first appear, do you know (yeesh, what a horrible sentence construction!)? My focus is on pre-sixteenth century European costume, rather than eighteenth, but I still have a great need for drawstring cords! Jennifer JLC@vax2.utulsa.edu ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 18:52:35 -0700 From: "Sarah E. Goodman -- unless it's Clint Bigglestone" Subject: Working Cloths On the subject of prostitutes' garments, but TOTALLY unrelated to the original request-- At about the same time period in Japan, the only difference between the way prostitutes dressed and the dress of other female members of the Floating World, was that the prostitutes tied their obis in the front. (I assume for the obvious reasons, since no one ever bothers to explain.) Medeival and Ren. prostitutes supposedly wore green, but given the cost of clothing I'm willing to bet this was an affectation primarily of the period equivalent of Very Expensive Call Girls. (Those of you who grew up thinking GREEN SLEEVES was a romantic ballad, go back and read all the words!) SEG ---------------------------- From: pedersee@ccmail.orst.edu Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 08:25:37 PST Subject: Re: Introduction A very famous "red light lady" of Nevada was Julia Bulette. There is a small book, THE LEGEND OF JULIA BULETTE AND THE RED LIGHT LADIES OF NEVADA by Douglas McDonald, published by Stanley Paher, Nevada Publications Box 154444, Las Vegas, Nevada in which you may be interested. If you travel to the Nevada Historical Society you may be able to find a fair amount of information on Julia and possibly other "ladies". The above book features photographs of Julia and others, although there is only one known photo of Julia. ---------------------------- From: CRUX@biofs1.bio.dfo.ca Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:48:44 -0400 (AST) Subject: Green Sleeves To the List: A flippant aside on the Green Sleeves posting. There is a costumers 'version' of the song, the chorus of which reads: "Though you are fair of face Your tailoring is a sad disgrace. Please resolve to try again For I simply cannot wear it..." I gather that there are several versions of this floating around, including the one my group made up. Keep up the great information; I find it alll fascinating, even that from eras which are not my special interest. Elizabeth ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Drawers and farthingales Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 08:59:07 PDT From: Walter Nelson -- Your message was: (from "E.Jannoo@bnr.co.uk") It is widely accepted at Kentwell that authentic underwear for women is no underwear and that authentic underwear for men is braies (VERY comfortable!) I don't know whether this is one of those great Kentwell myths that began with some misinformed person many years ago and become an established 'fact' or whether it is actually correct, but since Kentwell aims to be outwardly authentic rather than wholly authentic, I haven't bothered to find out. --My reply is: I think, (I'm speaking of men here) unless the drawers/braies are serving the essential purpose of keeping the hose up, they should probably be regarded as an optional garment till, perhaps, the mid 19th Century. A shirt of authentic length serves very well as both shirt and underdrawers when tucked between the legs, and as long as you don't have wool against your skin, it is very comfortable on a warm day. This is, of course, an area that is very difficult to document, so it rests on a great deal of supposition and, ahem, experimental archeology. I do recall a fragment of a rude poem or song, I think it was 18th Century, regarding what could be seen through a hole in a gentleman's shirt, when he removed his britches (it wasn't his drawers). I wish I could remember more of it, but I guess what I retain says much about my level of refinement and sophistication. Cheers, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE RAND | walter_nelson@rand.org | ___________________________________________________________________________ ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Working Cloths Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 09:21:41 PDT From: Walter Nelson -- Your message was: (from ""Sarah E. Goodman -- unless it's Clint Biggleston e"") Medeival and Ren. prostitutes supposedly wore green, but given the cost of clothing I'm willing to bet this was an affectation primarily of the period equivalent of Very Expensive Call Girls. (Those of you who grew up thinking GREEN SLEEVES was a romantic ballad, go back and read all the words!) --- My reply: Is there other evidence of the wearing of green by Medieval/Renaissance prostitutes? An alternate explanation of the "green sleeves" name would be that they became green from grass stains. "Green sleeves" would be more subtle, refined (and therefore a little funnier) than "green arse" I ask this not to dispute your statement, but simply because I am truely ignorant on the topic, and am very curious if there is more evidence than the song to suggest the wearing of green as a prostitute's color. BTW, there is an interesting woodcut, in a series from the 1590s of Spanish soldiers, of a woman who, one may suppose, is one of the "Three women per company to be held in common" specified under the general orders of that most interesting army. She wears a long, shapeless, closed Spanish Surcoat a small ruff and a soldier's style sugarloaf hat. It is not clear whether this is something of a uniform (the Spanish Army distained to wear uniforms), or just the typical attire of a camp follower. Cheers, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE RAND | walter_nelson@rand.org | ___________________________________________________________________________ ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 10:38:20 PST From: "Cindy" Subject: SF area 19th c Re-enactors Clothing Fair (reminder) A VICTORIAN CLOTHING FAIR San Juan Bautista State Historical Park San Juan Bautista, California (From the text of the Association Newsletter) Dont miss this exciting event coming to San Juan Bautista Sate Park in June 11, 1994 at the Plaza Hall. Buy, sell or trade Living History clothing, accessories, fabric, lace, trim, buttons or patterns for men, women and children. The era featured is 1840-1880. For your viewing pleasure, there will be demonstrations of Victorian fashions and discussions on social history held throughout the day. Sellers: Tables and hanging racks are provided. Each table costs $5. No percentage will be charged. Call or Email Neddra Shutts, shutts@mlml.calstate.edu (408.663.0848), or call Shirley Jolliff (408.899.0478) to reserve space. Please restrict items to accurate, useable and wearable reproductions or good quality originals. Sale items are not restricted to clothing and accessories, but can be any period accurate item, such as tools, pens, clocks, toys, and books. --cin cin@caere.com San Juan Bautista is approximately 1 hour south of Silicon Valley on Hwy 101. Docents and volunteers engage in Living History activities on the 1st Saturday of every month. New members welcomed. The park office phone: 408.623.4881 ---------------------------- From: joneill@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (John O'Neill) Subject: Green Gowns Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 13:58:55 EDT Walter Nelson asks, > Is there other evidence of the wearing of green by > Medieval/Renaissance > prostitutes? An alternate explanation of the "green sleeves" name > would be > that they became green from grass stains. "Green sleeves" would be > more > subtle, refined (and therefore a little funnier) than "green arse" Actually, I think there is some evidence on both sides of this question, though I don't know enough to be conclusive. In Spenser's _The Faerie Queene_ (1589), Book I, Canto 4, Stanza 25, speaking of Lechery in the procession of the Seven Deadly Sins, Spenser writes, "In a greene gowne he clothed was full faire, Which underneath did hide his filthiness" This certainly seems to suggest green fabric, rather than soiled fabric. On the other hand, in Robert Herrick's "Corinna's Going A-Maying" (1648), the line "Many a green-gown has been given" (line 51) seems to mean that young lovers have stained their clothing by rolling in the grass. Others on the list, who specialize in the Renaissance (as I do not) may know of other evidence. --John O'Neill ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Dianne Karp Subject: Re: Introduction If you can travel to Virginia City (where Julia lived) there is a great deal of information on her. She was held in very high regard by much of the (admittedly male) pop. of the time. She was known for her kind deeds (the ones in the vertical position) and was given a grand funeral when she was killed by, if I remember correctly, an unknown asssalant (sp). Dianne Reno, Nv ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 11:52:00 PST From: "Cindy" Subject: French Court Dress I guess I'm referring to the French noblemen referred to as "dandies", for lack of a better term. ;-) Yankee Doodle went to town Riding on a Pony Stuck a Feather in his Cap and called it Macaroni Yankee Doodle keep it up Yankee Doodle dandy Mind the music and step And with the Girls be handy. Sounds to me like you need a feather, a pony and dance lessons! Unhelpfully, --cin ---------------------------- Subject: Re: French Court Dress Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 13:38:17 PDT From: Walter Nelson -- Your message was: (from ""RICHARD L. ROY"") Greetings.... I'm putting this question out in hopes that someone out there can help me with a little research work. I'm interested in the dress of the French Court, mid to late eighteenth C., esp. the elaborate dress of the men, i.e. accessories, cosmetics-rouge, patches, jewelry, etc. I guess I'm referring to the French noblemen referred to as "dandies", for lack of a better term. ;-) If anyone out there has any info, or has any idea how far these gents went in costuming themselves, I'd love to hear..... I'm doing research work on the decadence of the era. Merci, Maureen Denning-Roy ------------------ The French are the most visible aristocrats in the 18th Century, and there is ample evidence of their attire. There are even some surviving examples in various museum collections. A good place to start would be the art of the period. You could try Watteau (he is a bit early tho), or Viger-LeBrun. Cheers, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE RAND | walter_nelson@rand.org | ___________________________________________________________________________ ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:02:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Cynthia Abel Subject: Re: French Court Dress The "Macaronis" referred to in the song were English and some French young gentlemen who had done the Grand Tour and from circa 1750's-1770's took male fashion to extremes--very high powdered wigs, tricorn hats too tiny to wear, exaggerated coat tails, etc. They were never a large group and their fashions and fads were lampooned in the national press, mostly as being effeminate. You could take the "Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni" two ways--either "Yankee Doodle" re- American colonial was so unfashionable(hence honest) that as close as he would come to aping the Macaronis was a feathered hat, or so much of a bumpkin, that to him a feathered hat was high fashion to him. Cindy Abel brujne@bluejay.creighton.edu Interlibrary Loan Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California St Phone 402-280-5144 Omaha NE 68178-0400 Fax 402-280-5134 ---------------------------- End of Volume 111 -----------------------