From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 11:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 144, 8/25/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 144, August 25, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Source for scalloped pinking shears Grooming level of authenticity Authenticity Question:19th century terminology Needed: Costumer for a musical (Connecticut) Question: Documentation for non-english dress, early 16th C Folkwear question and answer (Poirot Cocoon Coat pattern) Question: History of pinking and pinking shears ---------------------------------- From: Renactr2@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 17:36:47 EDT Subject: pinking shears We're looking for a pair of the old style pinking shears that cut in a scollope rather than a triangle. This was used in the mid Victorian period up untill the 1940's or so. Our catalogs from the various sewing suppliers have dis-continued carrying them. If anyone has a spare pair lying around to sell or trade, or knows a merchant that still sells them, my wife and I would certainly appreciate hearing from you. Thanks!!!! ---------------------------------- Subject: Re: scalloped pinking shears Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 19:01:48 -0400 From: Babs Woods I believe I have recently seen them in the catalogue below: Clotilde (Fabric, notions, books, findings, videos.) 1909 S.W First Ave. Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 33315-2100 Credit Card Orders: 305-761-8655 or: 1-800-772-2891 Catalogue: $2.00 (Mastercard & Visa) Hours: M-F 8:30-5:00 (EST) -babs ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 11:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Subject: Another kind of Authenticity Like many on this list I am interested in the authenticity of what goes under the outer layer of clothes and so have avidly followed discussions of petticoats, corsets, etc. But I do have a question that takes us down another layer, as it were. When did women begin shaving under their arms? As I look at the 19th century bare shoulders/bare arms fashions my guess is that that is the time when this practice began. Does anyone know? ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit the latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 Historic Preservation: Barns ---------------------------------- From: Dave Uebele Subject: Re: Authenticity Again Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 8:49:09 PDT Ned and Mrs C S Yeldham, I actually agree with most of what you say about the importance of quality and accuracy in historic clothing. I also agree that California is on the low end of the accuracy scale. It seems like Cal is only recently having enough history to consider doing accurate living history. We are also fighting a "hollywood movie" legacy here where the "historic" examples you see or people remember are old westerns, most of which are apalling as far as historic accuracy (though there has been some improvement of late). Often times your first timers will show up as a "hollywood cowboy", including lots of polyester, fast draw holsters, etc. Now maybe in 500-1000 years a span of 100 years wont seem as important, but it does now. (todays cowboy is likely to be wearing a nylon/down vest and driving a pickup truck, something that eventually will be "historic", but not yet) Also, since many living history programs are just getting started, there is less of a group awareness of the importance of good costuming, and more just a "get it happening at all" attitude. Also a lot of the oldwest clothing is midwest cattle town based, and not enough of the Spanish influence that you would have seen in California during that time. I applaud your concerns about getting the right costume for a potter or other tradesmen. I've seen too many people in semi-period clothes with Reebok's who just wanted to play at gardener or feeding the cute animals...(or be Scarlett O'hara), and very few who want to mirror the poverty and desperation you see in so many of the original photo's of the time. The early pioneers in California had risked and sacrificed a great deal, to get to California, the vast majority were not wearing fancy clothes, and were lucky to have more than the clothes on their back and few tools to scratch out a living here. Most of the early buildings are crumbling or have already been torn down to make space for more track homes and strip malls. Any advice on finding people willing to portray working class people rather than the upper class (which seems to be what every new aspiring costumer wants to do)? And be willing to put aside all the Hollywood images of how "The West" was? Having to use much more honey than vinegar out here, just to get critical mass of living history... dave -- Dave Uebele daveu@cisco.com (415) 688-7856 ---------------------------------- From: pedersee@ccmail.orst.edu Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 08:53:07 PST Subject: 19th century terminology I have a few questions from a friend working with 19th century clothing in the western U.S. Are ther terms "a disposition" and "dress pattern" synonymous? Can you recommend sources which discuss either or both of these terms? Does anyone know the 19th century definitions of point lace and thread lace and can you recommend sources which give these definitions? I have found only very broad definitions and we are wondering if they might have had more specific references (we have seen them discussed in stores ads in newspapers). Thanks. Elaine Pedersen pedersee@ccmail.orst.edu ---------------------------------- Subject: Re: Authenticity Again Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 09:57:45 PDT From: Walter Nelson Having found myself on the opposite side of the authenticity discussion from Ned and Carolyn, I would like to say now that I do not disagree with them in their assertions that Kentwell and such events should maintain a high standard, and that such groups can and should work to improve their standards through research and constructive criticism. Every group has a right, and perhaps and obligation to set and maintain appropriate standards. Were any of us to work at Kentwell, we would be obligated to meet Kentwell's standards as a spoken or unspoken precondition. The inconsiderate behavior in such a situation would be for an outsider to come in and fail to meet those standards, rather than for a member of the group to offer constructive criticism. However, the world of costume dress-up covers a hugh spectrum, and group norms vary enormously. The tension that creates "costume nazis" occurs when there is a group of people whose standards greatly exceed the group norms. This occurs a great deal in the US (and in my experience, in England as well). Groups like the SCA and renaissance faires are excellent examples of groups with a low minimum standard which contain individuals with high personal standards. This also occurs a great deal in military re-enactment groups, where the men, who have to adhere to military regulations and can often buy their stuff off the rack maintain a fairly high standard, while the women, many of whom are just there to be with their men, maintain a much lower minimun standard (I have found this to be the case in the US with American Civil War re-enacting, and in the UK with English Civil War re-enacting). When one finds oneself in such a situation (and we are assumining that one's personal standards exceed those of the group), then one can either become nasty, snobbish and unpleasant to be around, or one can avoid making costuming an issue, and concentrate on having a good time--while at the same time, trying to present an example of good costuming and offering helpful hints to those who seem to want them. It has been my experience that this approach can make a difference, and can gradually raise the overall quality of the group. I'm not sure if it is I who introduced the term "costume nazi" into the discussion, but if it was I, I would like to make clear that I didn't invent the term. I first heard it in the SCA, used to describe those who considered their standards to be higher than the group's, and lacked the social graces to avoid using this as a way to demean others. Such people earned did nothing to influence people to follow their example while earning that nickname. As much as we would like the entire world of historical dress-up to meet what we regard, as our own high standards, the reality is that it doesn't. There are two intelligent responses to this reality: one can form groups or participate only in groups that meet one's own standards; or one can learn to live with the failings of others, and try gently to raise the overal standard. The coping strategy that many have adopted however, is to join groups to which they feel superior, and then become a "costume nazi". It is this sort of behavior to which I object, and against which I have been writing. This is not a flame. I do not object to Ned or Caroline's desire to maintain the standards of Kentwell, and in fact, I applaud them. Groups which maintain high standards are not "costume nazis". People who feel their standards are superior and lack tact in pointing this out to others are. Cheers, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE RAND | walter_nelson@rand.org | ___________________________________________________________________________ ---------------------------------- From: KMRProd@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 14:01:43 EDT Subject: NEED SOMEONE TO DO COSTUMES Hello, Costumers. My name is Kevin Michael Reed, I am the writer/producer of an original musical which is to open in CT in Spring of 1995, and If the public likes it in CT. It will open in NYC/BWAY in Fall of 1995. Included in the costuming there are 1990s costumes (Basically, fantasy type costumes. For Heaven) and also Costumes from around 1925. I am going for the skirts to the knees if you are wonderingabout that, because 1925 was a time of change for fashion. For more information please EMAIL: KMR PROD@AOL.COM CALL: (203) 483-6671 OR WRITE: KMR PRODUCTIONS ON BORROWED TIME -THE MUSICAL COSTUMES 4 SQUIRE LANE BRANFORD, CT 06405-3232 USA Thank you for your time.... Sincerely, Kevin Michael Reed ---------------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: various questions (fwd) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Sharron Fina asks: Dear Ms. Close: [questions about accessing digests deleted] I need a list of sources for authenicating European dress from approximately 1500-1530. Most sources I can find are for England, which holds little interest for me. Sketches from art masterpieces are the best, especially those that are detailed. I can fairly well duplicate from a drawing. I just duplicated a fencing outfit for my son that had the SCA laurels drooling, all done from a sketch. Is there a good basic book detailing the styles of this period, perhaps a textbook used in teaching costuming or the like? I am at the University of Pennsylvania, and we do have a competent library here. I am willing to look if I know what I'm looking for. I know some books seem great until you read a better one, and I have limited time, so I would rather read the better one first. Sincerely, Sharron J. Fina *************** I've told Sharon how to access the back digests, so she can get any relevant postings we may have archived, but perhaps some of you have information that could help her that hasn't been discussed yet? If so, feel free to post or to answer her via e-mail. I set up the headers on this message so that a simple reply will go back to her and not to me. Thanks! -- Diane Close close@lunch.asd.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------------- From: garvey@poohbear.cig.mot.com (Heather L. Garvey) Subject: Re: Authenticity and Reenactors Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:45:34 -0500 (CDT) * The term 'costume-nazi' coined by somebody on this list (you know who you are) * is a highly offensive term to use and in no way describes somebody who * gives useful advice to others in order to help them improve. * * Those who consider people who give such advice to be costume-nazis are * obviously over-sensitive, quick to take offence and unable to take any * criticism. It is my opinion that such people do not really belong in a * group where they are expected to produce costume of an ever increasing * standard. 'Authenticity nazis' or 'costume nazis' are never in any way meant to describe wonderful, helpful people who are willing to give you assistance in improving your clothing. It is meant to be fairly offensive. It describes those who denigrate people who are not as "perfect" as they, be it in mannerism or clothing or whathaveyou. People who scorn you for your mistakes-through-ignorance without offering helpful assistance or without understanding that perhaps you just started and are even *looking* for help and kind critiques - these are the 'nazi' types. -- Heather Garvey Phone: (708) 632-3790 Motorola Cellular, ITS, Rm 2231 E-mail: garvey@cig.mot.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "...Let's just say that if complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards.'..." -- Rincewind, Terry Prachett's _The Colour of Magic_ ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 13:02:19 -0700 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu (Alison Kondo) Subject: Folkwear Question I've enjoyed reading the reviews of Folkwears 1920's dress, & it brought up something I'd been wondering about....Has anyone tried the Poirot Coccoon Coat pattern & what do they think of it? Also, does anyone know what historic patterns Folkwear is thinking about bringing out in the future? It seems as though new offerings have been balanced between "ethnic" & mainstream historical. I use more of their non-european pattterns than their other ones, but was curious if they would be bringing more 1910's & 1920's patterns out. alison ---------------------------------- From: jsargent@hmg.com Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 10:53:56 Subject: Re[2]: Authenticity and Reenactors _______________________________________________________________________________ Subject re:Authenticity and Reenactors Author Ed Jannoo Date 8/21/94 11:02 PM Not a flame... Dear Ned, >The term 'costume-nazi' coined by somebody on this list (you know who you are) >is a highly offensive term to use and in no way describes somebody who >gives useful advice to others in order to help them improve. The suffix "nazi", in this case, doesn't refer to the facist movement of Germany in the early part of this century. It's a common designation for anyone who takes a postition of authority without public approval. >Not receiving such feedback leads to complacency, where the maker thinks >"Well last year's costume was okay..." It is only by taking on board the >advice of others that you can hope to improve at a good pace. Remember that >those who give advice are by no means perfect and probably received a lot >of the advice they give out from others who commented on their costumes. "Feedback" and "unsolicited advice" are two very different things. >Those who consider people who give such advice to be costume-nazis are >obviously over-sensitive, quick to take offence and unable to take any >criticism. It is my opinion that such people do not really belong in a >group where they are expected to produce costume of an ever increasing >standard. "obviously over-sensitive, quick to take offence and unable to take any criticism"! - someone throw a _blanket_ over that statement before it catches fire. ;-) >At Kentwell, the average standard of costume goes up each year mainly due >to the fact that everybody who has done it before improves upon their >own standards and give more and better advice to the new participants, who >then come a lot closer to the average the following year. Given that the body of new participants are no doubt adults of some kind, the concept of "more and better advice" being issued instead of pursued might just be considered condesending. Praps' it's just the difference between the civilized British mindset and the more reactionary Colonial one. ;-) >To make a blanket statement that whenever somebody is criticising somebody >else's costume, they are doing it unkindly is a rather ignorant thing to do. And to cast a blind eye on the nastier aspects of the human psyche is just as ignorant. Mind you, I haven't been to Kentwell - it may well be the demi-paradise you describe - I'm just preaching moderation and common sense regarding the motivations of your fellow sapients, based on the reports, pro and con. This goes for all of us. Jeffery Sargent respice, adspice, prospice ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 14:37:07 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Re: Folkwear Question >I've enjoyed reading the reviews of Folkwears 1920's dress, & it >brought up something I'd been wondering about....Has anyone tried the >Poirot Coccoon Coat pattern & what do they think of it? I made this coat not too long ago and was very pleased with the way it turned out. I had seen a version of it at Costume Con 12 and wasn't too pleased with how it looked, but I think the key, once again was the drape of the fabric - something with drape is definitely needed. I did my own twist on the theme and used black crushed velvet for the body of the coat, lined it with black on black checkerboard satin and did the collar very short velvet-like nap zebra stripe. It draped well, is very warm, and quite comfortable. And it was very easy. Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:00:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Sharon Nelson Subject: re:Authenticity and Reenactors Unfortunately there are people who really are "costume nazis"--it sounds like Ned has been fortunate enough to avoid them. More than anything, it's the person's attitude. Which would be more likely to encourage you to learn more: "I'm not sure that fabric was in use during that time period...[X] was used a lot though. Have you thought about using that instead? I found a good mail-order source for it last year...." -or- That fabric was NEVER used! The ONLY acceptable fabric is [X]." The message is essentially the same--but the way it is communicated, and whether it contains helpful info. or is just a plain put-down, is what makes it "nazism" or not. Sharon =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Sharon L. Nelson sln@nccseq.noctrl.edu Systems Coordinator, Oesterle Library SCA - Maria Anna von Rabenstern North Central College Naperville, IL 60540 ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:10:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: pinking shears How was pinking done in, say 1780? Did they actually have scissors with pinking teeth, like we do today? (I can't think of any other way to do pinking, since making little bitty zig-zags by hand would be very tedious!) How early was pinking used, and how early did pinking shears exist? I know 1780's gowns had pinked trims. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov n =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Sharon L. Nelson sln@nccseq.noctrl.edu Systems Coordinator, Oesterle Library SCA - Maria Anna von Rabenstern North Central College Naperville, IL 60540 [29,1136,AiKG1jK00UfAE0vWYW] [27,538,QiKG=AW00UfAI0vas9] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:10:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu CC: BADDORF@badorf.fnal.gov Subject: RE: pinking shears How was pinking done in, say 1780? Did they actually have scissors with pinking teeth, like we do today? (I can't think of any other way to do pinking, since making little bitty zig-zags by hand would be very tedious!) How early was pinking used, and how early did pinking shears exist? I know 1780's gowns had pinked trims. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ---------------------------- End of Volume 144 -----------------------