From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 18:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 154, 9/22/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 154, September 22, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Seeking: Information on Lili de Noboli Costume Con 13 Authenticity arguments, chafing, and the purpose of the list Early Puritan costume Question and answer:1939 Military dress ERTE dolls in JC Penney catalog Seeking and providing advice What happened to Costumer's Quarterly Advice on Lingerie, 1880-1940 Thanks and words of wisdom ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 10:23:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Lili De Noboli I'm looking for information on the Italian costume designer, Lili de Noboli, particularly any books that might have pictures of her work. I'm also trying to find out if there is a directory of Theatrical and Historical costume support-groups-ie, the Costume Society, ATAC,the Scenic artist's union, etc. Any help is appreciated! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 10:08:04 PDT From: Eleanor Farrell Subject: Costume Con 13 In response to a recent query on the h-costume list, here's some info on the 1995 costume convention: Costume Con 13 Suite 0116, Box 187 65 Front Street West Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5J 1E6 May 26 - 29, 1995 Sheraton Toronto East Hotel & Towers Membership: $35 (US), $45 (CDN) Compuserve: 76437,1712 GEnie: C.Lyon4 Deadline for submitting designs to the Future Fashion competition is October 31, 1994. (Designers do not have to be a member of CC13 or plan to attend the convention to submit designs.) For more info contact the CC13 address or Patti & Steve Gill, PO Box 406, Savage, MD 20763-0406. For more information on Costume Cons in general, there are several postings available in the h-costume archives. People competing in the two masquerades (science fiction/fantasy and historical) and people wishing to enter the Future Fashion Show generally must purchase memberships to the convention. Sometimes there is pre-registration (by mail) for the masquerades; usually there is pre-registration for the fashion show. Future Costume Cons: 1996: Seattle, Washington - May 23-27, 1996 1997: Baltimore, Maryland - May 23-26, 1997 (Future Costume Cons will probably all be held over Memorial Day weekend - end of May - rather than Presidents' Day weekend in February.) Sorry I do not have registration info at hand for the '96 and '97 cons, but I can post this info later if people are interested. ---------------------------- From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: Authenticity (Again!) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 10:24:39 PDT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Re: Cindy's tirade (Note: I do not remember Cindy's "tirade", and this message is not intended to defend Cindy (or the opposite!).) Fine, you want to wear open-crotched drawers, so wear 16th century Italian prostitutes garb and you are perfectly authentic! I have given you my solution to thigh-rub. ...The type of deodorant I described worked perfectly. Why don't you try it? Begging your pardon, but your "solution" is no more authentic than open-crotched drawers, as far as anyone can verify. For you to *feel* authentic, you need to wear no drawers under your skirts. For someone else to *feel* authentic, she needs to wear loose, open-crotched drawers under her skirts. In situations where other people do not have the opportunity to check under the skirts in question, there does not appear (to me) to be much difference in the authenticity level of the two costumes. English re-enactors are ... delighted to be given useful information... I am amazed at the degree of defensiveness in some American costumers. Thank you for pointing out this particular fault to us Americans. I'm sure it will be a great help, both to our costuming ability, and to keeping peace on this list. Calling other people 'authenticity police'... are highly offensive, inaccurate and retrogressive insults. I disagree. Someone who states that people on this list should either strive constantly for greater authenticity (presumably taking that someone's word for what is or is not authentic) or find another hobby makes comments like "Fine, you want to wear open-crotched drawers, so wear 16th century Italian prostitutes garb..." is certainly using "policing" language. What word would you use instead? ...why the insults? Caroline My question exactly. I can't believe that I'm taking this whole thing so seriously. I'm so angry, my hands are shaking. I apologize for any typos caused by that. I also apologize if any part of this message sounds rude; I really did try hard to keep my language neutral. Naomi ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Authenticity (Again!) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 10:39:08 -0700 (PDT) > It does call into question the purpose of this list. Is it simply to be a > forum for exchange of information, or a place of discussion and development > of knowledge, whereby authenticity can be improved generally? As co-owner and originator of this list, I think I can best address this question: The purpose of this list is to discuss historic costume and clothing making, plain and simple. This list brings together people from very diverse backgrounds, often with very different goals: some are reenactors striving for authenticity and some are theater people trying to get the best look without losing stage-changing conveniences, etc. Not everyone on this list is striving for full authenticity, just as not everyone on this list is trying to discover non-authentic shortcuts! When you sign up you are given a copy of the charter of this list. I think it makes clear that people may be here for different reasons. To review it again: This list concentrates on recreating period costume, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, and the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Shows, museums, galleries and publications suitable for education or inspiration, training opportunities available through schools and workshops, design and motivational issues, collective group projects, and exchanges of materials are all also of interest to this list. Wig making, accessory and makeup issues, where pertinent to the overall design of the costume, are also acceptable topics. Etc. As you can see, while the emphasis is on accurate costuming, inacurate or "alternative" stuff is not excluded from discussions! There is room on this list to discuss all types of historic costuming methods, with the ultimate goal being to achieve a costume *as accurate as your _budget_ and _setting_ allows*. That means that, perhaps, theater people will be using velcro in spots -- they shouldn't be banished or abused for that. And it also means that those wanting full authenticity shouldn't be attacked for wanting that either! Autheniticity wars have no place on this list. If someone is looking to achieve full authenticity, don't attack them for that -- and if someone is looking to do something less authentic then they shouldn't be attacked for that either. There's room for both sides here. List co-owner Gretchen Miller will probably have something to say on this too, and I welcome her comments! -- Diane Close close@lunch.asd.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 14:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Re: Authenticity (Again!) I let this go the first time, but since Naomi responded, there are a couple of Caroline's comments that give me pause. What was the purpose of bringing nationality into the underwear wars issue? Is the mere exchange of information somehow a bad thing? (or did I misinterpret her reason for the threat to un-subscribe?) I tried the antiperspirant/deodorant approach once. It had nothing to do with costume authenticity. It had to do with the fact it was 100 degrees (F.) in Michigan and I was chafing open weeping sores where my thighs rubbed together in my everyday, mundane, 20th C. skirts as I walked around campus. The deodorant didn't help *me*, a bit. If it helps Caroline, bully for her. Ellen ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 15:54:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Thigh-rub $.02 Hi! I came in late on this conversation, so please excuse redundancy, but a good remedy for thigh-friction is a layer of pan-cake theatrical make-up (Max Factor is sold in drug stores) with a layer of powder to set it. Most actor's can't sweat this combination off for several hours. KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ---------------------------- From: RomanceWtr@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 03:08:19 EDT Subject: Early Puritan Dress Am a romance writer and would like to find out how the early puritans dressed, especially the textiles and colors of fabric they used and what they wore as undergarments. Thank you ahead of time and any help is most appreciated. Candace at: romancewtr@aol.com ---------------------------- From: ilonakd@rci.ripco.com (Ilona Koren-Deutsch) Subject: 1939 military dress Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 19:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Can anybody recommend a good book or two with pictures of military costumes from the beginning of WWII. I'm costuming a show set about a week after Poland fell; I need costumes from the US military (Air Force and Army) including women's costumes. Appreciating any help. Ilona Koren-Deutsch ilonakd@ripco.com -- ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.asd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Historic Dolls (Erte, Scarlett) at J.C. Penney Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Those interested in Erte's designs might want to check out the J.C. Penney Christmas catalog. It features a numbered, limited edition porcelain doll dressed in a costume by Erte (beaded dress and long jacket/cape from the Broadway musical "Stardust"). The doll isn't cheap -- she costs $585.00 (!!), but perhaps it'll give Erte costuming fans some ideas of their own. :-) It's not often that you get to see Erte's designs brought to life. His success on the silver screen was way too short-lived, and his designs live on mostly as illustrations, rather than actual garments. Also in the same catalog is Barbie dressed in Scarlett O'Hara's green curtain dress from "Gone With The Wind". Barbie, herself, has been designed and made up more to suggest Vivien Leigh than classic Barbie, but she still wouldn't fool Rhett! :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.asd.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 19:20:41 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Authenticity Although I do my best to make accurate costumes, I do not appreciate unasked-for advice. I view myself (and most other costumers I have met) as an intelligent, well-educated person. I have a large costume book library (over 750 volumes) full of information from recognized experts, plus some hundreds of original garments and accessories dating from the 1810s through the 1920s, which yield useful reproduction information. Should I need information not available from these sources, I can use a public or university library. Or I can ask for advice from a person whose judgement I trust. Or send a message to this list. But I want to _ask_ for the information, not be barraged with unsolicited advice when I am trying to enjoy myself at a social event. I am sure there are people who know more about costume than I do. For that matter, there are people who know more about managing finances, health care, marital relations, keeping a lawn green, and many other aspects of my personal life. And there are people who _know_ that if I adopt their religion I will be rewarded with eternal bliss in the afterlife. Or that if I adopt their political views the world be a better place. However, I feel my personal life (including my clothes) is my business. And that my experience and opinions may legitimately differ from those of other well-informed people. It's bad enough to be bombarded with ads for products that don't interest me and door-to-door calls from religious and political crusaders. In my social life, I expect my friends to be pleasant, tolerant, and in a word polite. And I do my best to extend the same courtesy to them. I have discovered that when my friends ask my opinion of their costumes, all they really want is a compliment. And I produce one, even if the only thing I can truthfully say is "You look great in that color." There are reenactment groups I have not joined, even though their time periods and events interest me, because the atmosphere is full of personal competition and criticism. I don't need that atmosphere to achieve and find it very distasteful. In fact, I think achievement is inhibited because people focus more on impressing (and protecting themselves from) others than on actually getting things done. What I am advocating is not only social politeness, but intellectual tolerance. Costume research is a branch of history. (My degree is in history and I wanted to be an academic but there weren't any jobs.) History is not a hard science. Mnay questions have no definite answers, expert opinions constantly shift as new evidence emerges, and experts have different opinions based on the same evidence. So there no real basis to go around telling people that you (or the authors you have read) are _right_, and that they are _wrong._ Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 21:13:01 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Costumer's Quarterly Does anybody know what happened to the International Costumer's Guild quarterly magazine? I joined in early '94, got the March issue, then nothing. I wrote to the editor about my subscription, but received no reply. Have other people received the June (July?) and September (October?) issues? Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:29:04 +1000 From: Joanne.Ellem@healthsci.utas.edu.au (Joanne Ellem) Subject: The Ol'Authenticity thing. I have been following the argument for a while now. And thanx to Diane for trying to difuse the situation, she really is a much needed voice of reason. So hold onto your hats folks, and i will prepare my mailbox for the flames that will probably pour in as I put my two cents worth in. I think what we are talking about here is cultural perceptions here. And I am going to back up Carolyn, but before the fingers start tapping, i would like people to read on before getting defensive. Carolyn has responded to the attacks on her knowledge and her trying to help. One lone english woman, trying to help by passing on her knowledge. And to be honest, I think she knows her stuff. She obviously practices what she preaches and has been involved in costuming and with costumers for a while. experience brings knowledge. I thought the whole point of this newsgroup was for advice and discussion on the many aspects of costuming, as one of the previous posters said, they weren't after advice or information, just someone to tell them they look cool, so why post? This newsgroup goes all over the world, if general consesus is not welcome from other people from cultures other than your own it should be made clear from the start that this group is only for US citizens, and no other opinions are wlecome. I don't know if you guys realize that if someone commments on some particular aspect of your society or how you do things, you all seem to take it very, very personally. And if someone responds to an American, all your countryman back it up. That is a wonderful, cultural attribute and says alot about the unity of your country as a whole. But, it also has it's down ide as well. Carolyn was responding to a particularly personal attack. She has been underfire for some time now, and been nice about it to, so now she responds and a number of people decide to get in on the act and make their anger felt. Fine, but why is her point not valid? Why is her defending herself so distasteful? And why is her knowledge and help any less valid because she comes from England. I think it is fair to say, that if the tables had been turned, the flames and indignation would be emense. Carolyn didn't deserve the pasting she got. And she is not alone. I am standing along side of her backing her up to the hilt. Every one's point is valid. Just as my own note, the BBC's costume standards for their productions are extremly high, their garments researched meticulously, and if Carolyn has been filming with them and others from kentwell, I think that says something very telling about their standard. And too quickly add, that doesn' denegrate anyone who doesn't feel it nescessary to met that high standard, everyone has their own goal and standard to reach, and that particular personal standard is equaly valid, no matter who they are or where they are from. sparklies jo please don't fill up my box with flames! Please do it to the appropriate newsgroup. ---------------------------- From: JLIEDL@nickel.laurentian.ca Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 07:44:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with Lingerie project, 1880-1940s Our department chair in his infinite wisdom has decreed that I shall be supervising the Honours Thesis of one of our senior students who is doing a social and marketing history of women's undergarments in US/Canada/UK/France 1880-1940s (geographic bounds and timeline subject to reduction as research progresses). This is certainly entertaining but, as a historian specializing in 16th century studies who occasionally dabbles into the nineteenth century and into garment history, a bit daunting. I'd like some advice as to useful books or concepts other h-costumers have encountered-- particularly if anyone has seen primary sources (i.e. works/evidence from the period in question). I've already directed her to the some of the more basic resources on the general question of history of undergarments, but any suggestions are appreciated. Materials which are available in printed form (magazines/serials/ journals/books/etc.) are most particularly helpful as we cannot afford costly field trips beyond the Toronto/Ottawa regions. Thanks, Janice (who would really like to see this tangential and unhelpful discussion on authenticity disappears before it hurts someone and further departs from the purpose of the list which is to discuss historic costume, full stop) -------------------------------- Janice Liedl, Dept. of History "History is the fiction we invent to jliedl@nickel.laurentian.ca persuade ourselves that events are Laurentian University knowable and that life has order and Sudbury, Ontario direction." -- Calvin and Hobbes -------------------------------- ---------------------------- From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com (Elizabeth Hanes Perry) Subject: Erte Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 08:39:15 -0400 (EDT) I've seen a couple of the movies that show Erte costumes; I was left with the impression that no fabric known to man (in the '20s, anyway) could realize the sinuous heavy drapery Erte achieved in his drawings. The velvets looked dumpy; the silks, insubstantial. Has anybody out there seen some surviving Ertes that _looked_ like his sketches? I'm curious, because I'd written him off as a fine sketcher of unrealizable clothing. (Contrast Fortuny, who _did_ good work with drapery. Lust, lust, lust.) Enlighten my ignorance, please! Betsy ---------------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Thanks to list Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:17:06 -0400 (EDT) I'd like to thank all the people who replied to my query about CostumeCon13. These lists are a wonderful place to share knowledge. As a new member of the list, it saddens me to see verbal strife in what is otherwise a delightful exchange of ideas. Around 1983, I was fortunate enough to take a three-week holiday in England, Scotland, and the Netherlands. I visited about 20 great houses with costume exhibits and many museums. As in my travels in the U.S., quality varied widely. I can remember being in a Tudor mansion for one of those "Elizabethan dinners" for tourists. The waitstaff were wearing embarrassingly poor costumes and I was all ready to be irritated about it and let it ruin my whole evening. But then I looked around at the intense beauty of the house, the laughter of the people around me (who didn't know a bodkin from a butter knife) and realized I was there to have fun. And if I had to wave aside my thoughts about the way things SHOULD be and just enjoy the way things were, I'd have a wonderful time. And I did. May I suggest the same for the list? -- Marsha Hamilton ph: (614) 292-6314 Head, Monograph Acquisition Division fax:(614) 292-2015 The Ohio State University Libraries e-mail: hamilton.8@osu.edu 1858 Neil Avenue Mall Columbus, OH 43210-1286 USA ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:42:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: 1939 military dress Any books in the "Osprey" series are good military references. You can find them in any store that sells military and role=playing game paraphinalia. The Compleate Strategist (sp?) in Boston carries them, so do most libraries. KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ---------------------------- End of Volume 154 -----------------------