From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 165, 10/13/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 165, October 13, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Muslins, printed and otherwise Seeking info on Civil War Costumes Seeking info on 18/19th C Women's riding dress "Wet" dry cleaning Cloth of gold Mourning bands ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:46:51 +0800 (WST) From: Anne Casey Subject: Re: Muslins, printed and otherwise. To: historic costume On Fri, 30 Sep 1994 dm@cpac.washington.edu wrote: > > I can't tell you about historical names for fabrics, but I > do know that what Americans call 'muslin' is called 'light canvas' > in the UK; what they call 'muslin', we call curtain-lining (very > thin weave with visible holes between the threads), and what we > call 'calico' (ie., brightly printed cotton fabrics, often used > for quilting), they call 'muslin'. This might help. > > --angela Well, I'm Australian, but our fabric and knitting terms are usually the same as England. Here goes an attempt at a list: Aus/UK (probably) Calico, also known as Unbleached Calico. This is a creamy colored unbleached cotton, sometimes with brown seed stains in it. If well made, it's fairly firm, and you can't see through it. Used for things like cheap curtains, curtain lining if you don't want to use rubber backed stuff, doonas which will have a removable cover. It's *always* pure cotton, and cheap as chips. It's also well known for shrinking. What the US calls Calico we have no name that I know of. It's usually just called cotton. Sometimes it might be called quilting fabric if you want to identify the weight for some reason. It's the same weight as lawn, which is usually plain (although it can be printed). Muslin is somewhere between gauze and what you call calico. I've seen 19thc costumes with similar fabric, often printed with sprigs of flowers. It drapes really nicely, and is cool in the heat. Hope this makes some kind of sense, /anne.... ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:09:08 +0800 (WST) From: Anne Casey Subject: Re: Muslins, printed and otherwise/2 I remembered while I was at lunch - Unbleached calico (Aus/UK calico, not US), *before* it is washed (i.e. still has its sizing in it) deters moths. I haven't tried it, but it was recommended in a couple of spinning books. Use it to make bags to hide your woolies in. /anne.... ---------------------------- From: BSherk@aol.com Date: Thu, 06 Oct 94 20:09:12 EDT Subject: Civil war costumes Interested in getting information regarding Civil War costumes. Am considering involvement in re-enactments. Special interest in CW surgeons and hospitals. ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:15:44 +0800 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Corp.Sun.COM (Alexandra R. Ohlson) Subject: Full identification The movie quasi-referenced was Tombstone. The garment described was a frock coat, latter half 19th. cent. Dusters were another popular guess, but wasn't what I meant. Those I'm familiar with, having ridden horses for many years. And while perhaps "new" as a fashion garment, have remained in use in the equestrian world up to the present. Which brings me to another question - anyone have a good reference for women's riding costume in the 18th-19th century. I find it very interesting how the necessary practical aspects of the dress nonetheless try and follow the varying waistline and skirt of the period. I'd love to find a more in-depth study. alexandra ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 09:33:43 -0800 (PST) From: PATSY DUNHAM Subject: Query "wet" dry cleaning Hi, all. Seeing all the moth / dry-cleaning vintage fabrics stuff of the last week reminded me that I saw a small article (in the local newspaper, so probably from UP/AP, sometime in the last 3? weeks) about some testing recently completed on "wet" dry cleaning methods, comparing them with traditional "dry" dry cleaning. I believe the conclusion was that each method cleans equally well and the chemicals used for "wet" process are MUCH less dangerous to workers and the environment in general. Can anyone out there provide more info. on "wet" dry cleaning? Anyone know anything about how "wet" process works/affects vintage fabrics? Please reply to the list, as I'm sure many would be interested. Patricia R. Dunham, Gary Walker e-mail:dunham%euglib@MRED.LANE.EDU Eugene OR USA home, machine: 503-683-2220 mka (medievally (SCA) known as) --Mistress Chimene des CinqTours, OP, An Tir --Meistari Gerekr fjarsjandi Rognvaldsson, the Farseeing, OP, OL, An Tir +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Oct 94 11:11:47 PST From: "Cynthia" Subject: Red cloth of gold >I have come across several 16th century references to "purple" or "red" cloth >of gold, and I was wondering if anyone on this list had any idea what this >type of cloth could be. My understanding is that cloth of gold was woven of >spun gold, and so I am curious how it could be colored. Any help on this would >be greatly appreciated. I suppose one answer would be that the weft threads are not metal, but silk. I leave it to you to interpret for your own period of interest. In my collection, there is a Indian cloth of silver shawl with sky blue silk. The weave then is done like damask and creates an interesting pattern. Once I asked how to clean such a thing as the silver is tarnished at the fringe. An Indian woman told me, with a look of slight surprise, that no one would. You throw the thing in the fire, burn the silk, collect the silver or gold and have another one made. --cin cin@caere.com "Where's the man could ease a heart like a satin gown." --Dorothy Parker ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Oct 94 11:51:59 PST From: "Cynthia" Subject: More on cloth of silver & gold Theresa & Cindy J, >This type of cloth of gold has a silk warp and a mettalic weft. >So, a red cloth of gold would be a red silk warp and a gold >mettalic weft. Same for purple. This system really makes a >great deal of sense if you think about it. This amuses me vastly as the two systems we have described are exactly opposite. Cindy, are you looking at actual pieces? The piece I have is a 9'x2' shawl, the silver warp forms the fringes at either end. > A metallic warp would be nearly impossible to work with and you >couldn't make a very long piece of fabric due the brittleness of the >metallic thread. While I'm not a weaver, I do work in metal (jewelry casting) and would expect the 180 turn at the selvage to more stressful to the metal than the turn around the drum of a loom. Finally, for small pieces, such as a shawl, some cultures use a frame style loom, not the floor loom popular for long yardage. >The silk warp would also give the fabric more suppleness >and less weight. You can still occasionally find fabric made in this >manner. We have a store here in Houston that sells a version of it >with silk and metal (but not real gold or silver) in a wide variety of >colors. Oh, yes! Mostly at Indian sari shops where it's sold by weight and purity of the metal not yardage. Because it's silk, it takes dye, if your era cant handle fuschia. Lunch summons me! --cin "Where's the man could ease a heart like a satin gown." --Dorothy Parker ---------------------------- From: Renactr2@aol.com Date: Fri, 07 Oct 94 20:02:57 EDT Subject: Mourning bands " Sombody, somewhere, must know something!!!" - Michael Cain in Jack the Ripper I am looking for information on when the practice of putting a black band around the arm started. My wife and I are going to Rememberance Day at Getteysburg this November and I will be dressed as a civilian. I think the practice of mourning bands pre-date the Civil War( American, that is) but I want my ducks in a row, so to speak. Can anyone shed some light on such a dark subject? Thanks, Jim Burrill renactr2@aol.com ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 20:18:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: your mail On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 SLNZC@cc.usu.edu wrote: > I am a graduate student in history writing my thesis on Tudor sumptuary laws. > I have come across several 16th century references to "purple" or "red" cloth > of gold, and I was wondering if anyone on this list had any idea what this > type of cloth could be. My understanding is that cloth of gold was woven of > spun gold, and so I am curious how it could be colored. Any help on this would > be greatly appreciated. In my experience, "cloth of gold", while it refers to a fabric incorporating metallic threads, is generally not equivalent to a lame-like fabric; i.e., a solid metallic effect. The most common type of cloth of gold would use a silk base (both warp and weft) with the metallic threads doing the brocaded pattern. So the "purple" or "red" would be the color of the silk background against which the gold pattern was displayed. Heather Rose Jones ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 20:50:13 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Cloth of gold The following quote on cloth of gold is from Jacqueline Herald's _Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500_, published by Humanities Press in 1981. "Many fifteenth-century textiles which remain evident today are highlighted by gold, silk, or silver-gilt threads. The weavers did not use pure gold or silver membrane but a thread composed of a core, sometimes of linen but more often silk, around which is spirally wrapped fine metal wire. So constructed, the thread is much more flexible to use than would be a plain strip of metal. Always fed across the fabric, as a supplementary weft, the metal threads sometimes give a silver or gold sheen to the flat ground of the fabric, in which case the velvet pile stands out in relief between the metallic areas. In other velvets, the metal weft is raised higher than the silk pile to form little loops which catch the light. . .Here and there, are found the same metal loops grouped together, to form a heavy-looking patch of gold or silver. . ." (Brocading is a weaving technique, as is velvet. The two techniques may be used alone or in combination, and with any fiber.) Herald makes it plain these fabrics were called "cloth of gold" (or silver). Which sounds more impressive than "silk interwoven with some gold-wrapped silk threads." There is a long period quote about Alfonso of Aragon playing a practical joke on an unpopular ambassador who always wore gold brocade when he met with the king. The king scheduled a meeting with a lot of people in a small room, all of whom were instructed to rub against the ambassador "by accident." By the end of the meeting all the gold had rubbed off the yellow silk core. The king and courtiers laughed over this for days. For the record, it is actually possible to weave with a pure metal wire warp on a jack loom. When I studied weaving in college, one of my fellow students was a professional jeweler. She set up a project where the warp was copper wire, passed through the heddles and wrapped around the beam exactly like thread. Her loom was under a good deal of strain, but she completed the project successfully. She moved on to some really massive projects that used even more metal, for which she built a warp-weighted loom in her home. I never saw most of her projects in the class critiques because they were too heavy to bring in. She sold them to interior decorators and seemed well on the way to commercial success with that type of piece. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 22:36:15 -0500 (CST) From: Cindy Johnson Subject: Re: More on cloth of silver & gold On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Cynthia wrote: > > Theresa & Cindy J, > > > This type of cloth of gold has a silk warp and a mettalic weft. So, a red > cloth of gold would be a red silk warp and a gold mettalic weft. Same for > purple. This system really makes a great deal of sense if you think > about it. > > This amuses me vastly as the two systems we have described are > exactly opposite. Cindy, are you looking at actual pieces? The > piece I have is a 9'x2' shawl, the silver warp forms the fringes at > either end. Cynthia, Yes, I am looking at an actual piece. I went and pulled it out of the closet again to make sure I hadn't just looked at it wrong the other night. It does in fact have a silk warp. This piece (and the dozen other bolts at the store around the corner) were probably woven on a standard floor loom rather than the type you describe below. > > A metallic warp would be nearly impossible to work with and you > couldn't make a very long piece of fabric due the brittleness of the > metallic thread. > > While I'm not a weaver, I do work in metal (jewelry casting) and > would expect the 180 turn at the selvage to more stressful to the > metal than the turn around the drum of a loom. Finally, for small > pieces, such as a shawl, some cultures use a frame style loom, not > the floor loom popular for long yardage. > The problem with the 180 degree turn would be true if you were dealing with thread that was merely metallic. However, the thread used for sewing and weaving that is called metallic is a fiber core (anything from silk to nylon) with metal wrapped around the outside of it, in the same manner as cotton wrapped polyester thread. This type of thread was developed (perfected? - I'm not sure of the exact origins of the technique) by the Japanese and is still called Japan gold. Does this help with the problem you're having envisioning the thread making a 180 degree turn at the selvedge? As to handling the metallic warp on a floor loom - I've not done much weaving, but in my limited experience I have learned that keeping the thread straight with metallic warps is harder than silk warps which is harder than wool warps which is harder than cotton warps. Personally, I'd rather buy fabric and let someone else deal with the weaving. I can see where short warps done on a frame style loom would work well for shawls and such. Out of curiosity, does the metallic thread in your shawl have a fiber core, or is it a different type of metallic thread that I am not familar with? May I inquire into the origins of your shawl? Perhaps I should read further into my e-mail. I confess to fascination. Is it transparent like the pieces I've seen or more opaque? Curiosity doesn't only kill cats! Cindy > The silk warp would also give the fabric more suppleness > and less weight. You can still occasionally find fabric made in this > manner. We have a store here in Houston that sells a version of it > with silk and metal (but not real gold or silver) in a wide variety of > colors. > > Oh, yes! Mostly at Indian sari shops where it's sold by weight and > purity of the metal not yardage. Because it's silk, it takes dye, > if your era cant handle fuschia. > > > Lunch summons me! > > --cin > > "Where's the man could ease a heart like a satin gown." > --Dorothy Parker ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 23:56:05 -0500 (CST) From: Cindy Johnson Subject: Re: Cloth of gold On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Allan Terry wrote: > The following quote on cloth of gold is from Jacqueline Herald's > _Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500_, published by Humanities Press in 1981. > > "Many fifteenth-century textiles which remain evident today are highlighted > by gold, silk, or silver-gilt threads. [...] > In other velvets, the metal weft is raised higher than the > silk pile to form little loops which catch the light. . .Here and there, are > found the same metal loops grouped together, to form a heavy-looking patch > of gold or silver. . ." > > (Brocading is a weaving technique, as is velvet. The two techniques may be > used alone or in combination, and with any fiber.) > Would this looped metal threads in combination with velvet and brocading be like the fabric in Elenora of Toledo's gown in her portrait by A. Bronzino painted in 1550? I've always been fascinated by this fabric, and mourn that such a fabric does not seem to be available today. Does anyone now a source for voided velvet brocades (satin ground, brocade pattern worked in velvet loops or tufts)? If so, how much does such a fabric cost? Far too expensive for my budget, I'm sure. > [Paragraph about weaving with metal wires on a jack loom] There was a "Threads Magazine" a while back (Number 36 - Aug/Sep 1991) that had wire sculptures on the back cover that Judith Duffey had made by knitting the wires using a knitting machine. The sculptures are quite interesting, and I would think her best market for them would be interior decorators - the same as your college friend's. The knitting machines I've worked with were so finicky that I never would have thought to put metal wire in them. I wonder what type of machine she was using? Cindy Johnson > > Fran Grimble > > > ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Oct 94 20:25:07 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Re: Cloth of gold I wouldn't know about Eleanor of Toledo's gown without closely examining a color photo of the portrait, which I haven't done. There was a discussion about reproducing this gown on h-costume a while back, so maybe someone has already figured out what fabric was used. I do know, however, that you can buy voided velvet upholstery fabric. It is not necessarily beyond your budget, since like other upholstery fabrics it is sometimes available as a sale item, at a discount fabric store, or as a large remnant at an upholstery store. Does anybody on this list know a good mail-order source for upholstery or clothing fabric, especially brocades, with patterns suitable for historic reproductions? Fran Grimble ---------------------------- End of Volume 165 -----------------------