From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:57:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 177, 11/4/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 177, November 4, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Bad Movies With Clothes To Die For (was Period costumes in the movies) House of Elliot Costume details in Mrs Soffel Did sleeves still tie on in the 18th C? The process of dressing "Killer" as a costuming adjective Origins of hooks and eyes 19th C maid's clothing Book recommendation "Fabric of Society" ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Movie costumes Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT) I'm enjoying this thread on movie costumes immensely!! Heather wrote: > .... If you can't > afford a holiday I'd recommend seeing this movie! It's worth it for > the costumes alone! I'm surprised at the number of "period" movies that are now coming out where great (enormous) amounts of detail is spent on the costume and period particulars, making them a feast for the eyes, but the plots suck so bad you might not make it through a non-video (where you can fast-forward or turn off the volume :-) showing! Not that this is the case with Enchanted April (the movie to which Heather refers, above). Her comment just reminded me that there has been a rash of "bad" movies (ones that didn't do well at the box office) that got rave reviews over their authentic costuming and/or sets. Movies like The Shadow (which I, personally, loved :-), and Radioland Murders, for example, both of which have great 1930's clothing; even the stylized Dick Tracy clothes were nice, if not wholly accurate. Any other bad-movies-with-clothes-to-die-for? :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:40:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Cynthia Abel Subject: Re: House of Elliott Count me in for a vote as to what happen after the end of HOE III book or books. Maybe on the different list we could write our own endings--have a contest. Cindy Abel brujne@bluejay.creighton.edu Interlibrary Loan Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California St Phone 402-280-5144 Omaha NE 68178-0400 Fax 402-280-5134 On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Alison Kondo wrote: > > Maybe Jean Marsh will write a "what happened > after the series" book. A lot of people would probably > buy it to see how the loose ends tied up. > > Alison > > ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 12:21:18 -0700 From: jnikkel@internex.net (Jane Amy Nikkel) Subject: Re: Movie costumes Diane Barlow Close wrote: >I'm enjoying this thread on movie costumes immensely!! So am I. Has anyone mentioned _Last of the Mohicans_ in the great-to-look-at and quite-accurate-for-Hollywood category? >Heather wrote: >> .... If you can't >> afford a holiday I'd recommend seeing this movie! It's worth it for >> the costumes alone! > >I'm surprised at the number of "period" movies that are now coming out >where great (enormous) amounts of detail is spent on the costume and >period particulars, making them a feast for the eyes, but the plots suck >so bad you might not make it through a non-video (where you can >fast-forward or turn off the volume :-) showing! Not that this is the >case with Enchanted April (the movie to which Heather refers, above). Her >comment just reminded me that there has been a rash of "bad" movies (ones >that didn't do well at the box office) that got rave reviews over their >authentic costuming and/or sets. Movies like The Shadow (which I, >personally, loved :-), and Radioland Murders, for example, both of which >have great 1930's clothing; even the stylized Dick Tracy clothes were >nice, if not wholly accurate. Any other bad-movies-with-clothes- >to-die-for? :-) The first one to come to mind is _The Bride_ with Sting and Jennifer Whats-her-name. I'm wondering if _Interview with the Vampire_ will be of this type. My expectations are somewhat higher for the Branagh _Frankenstein_. Anyone seen a preview? Jamie Jane Amy Nikkel InterNex Information Services, Inc. 1050 Chestnut Street Suite 202 Menlo Park, CA 94025 Voice: 415-473-3060 Fax: 415-473-3062 email: jnikkel@internex.net ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:32:24 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Barbra Matera's Group K.C. Kozminski wrote: Subject: Re: Movie costumes On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Jane Amy Nikkel wrote: > Diane Barlow Close wrote: > > >I'm enjoying this thread on movie costumes immensely!! > > So am I. Has anyone mentioned _Last of the Mohicans_ in the great-to-look-at and quite-accurate-for-Hollywood category? > > Jamie As a matter of fact, I just saw _Last of the Mohicans_ last night for the first time (Daniel Day-Lewis...aaahhhhhh). Everything looked very good, but one thing jarred my eye: did they still TIE their sleeves on in the 18th century? I'm familiar with this construction from the Renaissance, but thought that by the 18th c. sleeves were generally SEWN on. Madeleine whatsername (the female star person) wears a beautifully shaped bodice and fichu at the "town meeting" where the townfolk are discussing whether they will go and fight with the British, but the sleeves are tied on, and we later see her without sleeves but retaining dangling ties on the bodice, and still later sans sleeves _and_ ties. In the last case, she has shirt sleeves emerging from underneath the bodice so that her arms aren't bare. DID they still tie their sleeves on in the mid-18th century? Melanie Schuessler mjs@owlnet.rice.edu ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 16:07:54 -0700 From: jnikkel@internex.net (Jane Amy Nikkel) Subject: Re: Movie costumes >On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Jane Amy Nikkel wrote: > >> Diane Barlow Close wrote: >> >> >I'm enjoying this thread on movie costumes immensely!! >> >> So am I. Has anyone mentioned _Last of the Mohicans_ in the great-to-look-at and quite-accurate-for-Hollywood category? >> >> Jamie > > >As a matter of fact, I just saw _Last of the Mohicans_ last night for >the first time (Daniel Day-Lewis...aaahhhhhh). Everything looked very >good, but one thing jarred my eye: did they still TIE their sleeves >on in the 18th century? I'm familiar with this construction from the >Renaissance, but thought that by the 18th c. sleeves were generally >SEWN on. Madeleine whatsername (the female star person) wears a >beautifully shaped bodice and fichu at the "town meeting" where the >townfolk are discussing whether they will go and fight with the >British, but the sleeves are tied on, and we later see her without >sleeves but retaining the dangling ties on the bodice, and still >later sans sleeves _and_ ties. In the last case, she has shirt >sleeves emerging from underneath the bodice so that her arms aren't bare. > >DID they still tie their sleeves on in the mid-18th century? > > >Melanie Schuessler >mjs@owlnet.rice.edu In the Clothing at Colonial Williamsburg book (the exact title escapes me) there is a photograph of a pair of jumps (a woman's boned bodice) that has "buttonholes" at the armholes placed so sleeves can be tied on. I don't think it was a high fashion style. Jamie Jane Amy Nikkel InterNex Information Services, Inc. 1050 Chestnut Street Suite 202 Menlo Park, CA 94025 Voice: 415-473-3060 Fax: 415-473-3062 email: jnikkel@internex.net ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 16:56:39 -1200 From: althea_sexton@wsu.edu (Althea Sexton) Subject: Re: Movie costumes I just got back on line and am jumping into the middle of this thread. Bram Stoker's Dracula was supposed to have had great, if not accurate costumes. I don't watch dem creepy movies, but considered it just to peek at the threads. Also has some of those old MGM movies been mentioned? I shiver when I think of Stewart Granger in _Scaramoche_. I think those breeches were painted on. Also, _Forever Amber_, _Kitty_, and anything by St. Edith. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - \============/ - - - - - - - XXXXXXXXXXXX - {**********} | Althea L. Sexton |H| | | || | ALTHEA_SEXTON@WSU.EDU |H| | | || | ALTHEA@UIDAHO.EDU |H| | | || - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 16:55:01 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Elizabethan dressing Jane Ashelford's _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth 1_ has some discussion of the process of dressing. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 17:00:43 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Question for linguists I have a question for the linguists on this list. The local (San Francisco Bay Area) costumers are fond of using "killer" as an adjective. As in "So-and-so is a killer costumer" "The Killer Hair Workshop," and so on. I've never heard or read this usage anywhere else. (Though I'm not in touch with the popular media--don't watch TV, listen to radio, or read truly popular periodicals other than the _San Francisco Daily Chronicle_.) So forgive me if this is a dense question but--Does anybody use this term other than the local costumers? If so, where does it come from? Fran Grimble ---------------------------- From: Damion001@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 22:12:42 -0400 Subject: re: Movie costumes > Any other bad-movies-with-clothes- > to-die-for? :-) I saw a 1971 movie a few days ago _Daughter's Of Darkness_ that had some excellent scenes which totally relied on the brilliance of costume and gesture. In one scene the lesbian vampire Countess Bathory appears from out of chiffon curtains wearing a slitthery, silver sequined gown, she sparkled and shined it didn't matter what she was saying--mesmerizing. The rest of her wardrobe included a Dietrich-looking veiled hat, red chiffon Halston-type dress, a black cape, platform boots, etc.. Damion ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 22:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Question for linguists On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Allan Terry wrote: > I have a question for the linguists on this list. The local (San Francisco > Bay Area) costumers are fond of using "killer" as an adjective. As in > "So-and-so is a killer costumer" "The Killer Hair Workshop," and so on. > I've never heard or read this usage anywhere else. (Though I'm not in touch > with the popular media--don't watch TV, listen to radio, or read truly > popular periodicals other than the _San Francisco Daily Chronicle_.) So > forgive me if this is a dense question but--Does anybody use this term other > than the local costumers? If so, where does it come from? > > Fran Grimble No, it's not just costumers. I've heard this particular piece of slang for years, although I couldn't pin down when and where I first heard it. My estimation of the origin would be that it started with the meaning "difficult, harrowing" as in "that was a killer midterm yesterday" and moved on either to a more generalized "impressive, memorable" or went directly to a specifically positive meaning by the same route that "bad" once did. (Just how many linguists are there on this list anyway?) Heather Rose Jones ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Movie costumes On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Althea Sexton wrote: > I just got back on line and am jumping into the middle of this thread. > Bram Stoker's Dracula was supposed to have had great, if not accurate > costumes. I don't watch dem creepy movies, but considered it just to peek > at the threads. If you want a look at the costumes without watching the movie, there's a gorgeous (and expensive!) coffee-table book "Coppola and Eiko on Bram Stoker's Dracula" (San Francisco: Collins Publishers, 1992. ISBN 0-00-255167-5) that has not only photographs of the finished costumes and movie clips but some of the working sketches as well. The historical accuracy, as far as I can tell, goes from ok on a few of the items to "accuracy? we don't need no stinkin' accuracy!" on the "medieval" stuff from the opening scenes. Heather Rose Jones ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 23:09:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Re: Movie costumes Well, I was in the library reading costuming books (surprise surprise!) and happened to be in the Hollywood costuming section. Well, one book had some wonderful photos and I started writing down all of the historical movies that I could find. Here's the list I got: Raintree County The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex they died with their boots on Saratoga Trunk Suez The House of Rothschild Centennial Summer Forever Amber The Spanish Dancer The King & I Age of Innocence (the older version) Little Women If anyone has seen any of these please tell me which are worth seeing and which aren't. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle, Kingdom of An Tir, Barony of Glymm Mere * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * * "I'll think about it tomorrow!" * ***************************************************************** On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Althea Sexton wrote: > I just got back on line and am jumping into the middle of this thread. > Bram Stoker's Dracula was supposed to have had great, if not accurate > costumes. I don't watch dem creepy movies, but considered it just to peek > at the threads. Also has some of those old MGM movies been mentioned? I > shiver when I think of Stewart Granger in _Scaramoche_. I think those > breeches were painted on. Also, _Forever Amber_, _Kitty_, and anything by > St. Edith. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - \============/ > - - - - - - - XXXXXXXXXXXX > - {**********} > | Althea L. Sexton |H| | | || > | ALTHEA_SEXTON@WSU.EDU |H| | | || > | ALTHEA@UIDAHO.EDU |H| | | || > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| | > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| > > > > ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 23:13:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: hooks and eyes I have been so curious about hooks and eyes. Someone said a few messages ago that they were invented (?) around 1814 I think. Well, did they go into popular usage then? If not when did they become common? I was reading Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion I and a lot of the dresses seemed to have hooks and eyes. Were the dresses in that book real garments or just from fashion plates and paintings? I couldn't tell from the introduction. She didn't seem to really say. Also, does anybody know of any really good references on corsets or any other undergarments (hoops, chemises, etc.)? I have corsets & crinolines and it doesn't have all that I want in it. At least in the crinoline department. Thanks for any help! ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle, Kingdom of An Tir, Barony of Glymm Mere * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * * "I'll think about it tomorrow!" * ***************************************************************** ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Oct 94 13:47:43 GMT From: Paul C Dickie Subject: Maid to serve? In message Anne Casey writes: > > The other thing that bothered me was the maid's large collection of > dresses and aprons - each one seemed reasonable for her station (I think), > but she had so *many* - I thought most servants would have ~ 2 outfits. It was normal for servants to have two or three outfits, with perhaps a few more aprons and blouses. When a chambermaid or kitchen maid arose from her slumbers -- at about 5 or 6 o'clock -- she would put on the outfit she'd worn the previous day, before attending to her morning chores. These would include emptying the various grates and making up the fires, so her clothes would soon become quite grubby. Once the dirty work was done, though, she would return to her room, wash and change into a clean outfit for the rest of her duties that day. It's also quite likely that she would need another outfit for church or chapel, and which would be kept just for that -- her "Sunday best". Then, of course, she'd have her own clothes, for the afternoon each week when she wasn't on duty... < Paul > ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 15:31:41 -0500 From: pef101@psu.edu (Philip E. Frigm Jr.) Subject: Re: hooks and eyes At 11:13 PM 10/28/94 -0700, erin k. gault wrote: >I have been so curious about hooks and eyes. Someone said a few messages >ago that they were invented (?) around 1814 I think. Well, did they go >into popular usage then? If not when did they become common? I was >reading Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion I and a lot of the dresses >seemed to have hooks and eyes. Were the dresses in that book real >garments or just from fashion plates and paintings? I couldn't tell from >the introduction. She didn't seem to really say. > I haven't been reading the list as often as I would like to able to, so I missed the post that Erin is refering to, but I too was under the impression that hooks and eyes were in use earlier than 1814. Could someone let me know (off list if you feel it necessary to repeat a esponce already given.) >Also, does anybody know of any really good references on corsets or any >other undergarments (hoops, chemises, etc.)? I have corsets & crinolines >and it doesn't have all that I want in it. At least in the crinoline >department. Thanks for any help! Erin, There is a book out called _Period Costumes for Stage and Screen_ written by Jean Hunnisett. It is definitely oriented toward "costume", but it does give step by step construction instructions (try saying that 5 times fast!) on under and over garments from 1500 to 1800. If cross referenced with other sources geared toward more authenticity, it could be of some help. Hope this helps, Philip E. Frigm Jr. | You know, I really pef101@psu.edu | have nothing History Dept. - PSU | to say! ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Men's capes comment (and book pointer) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 12:54:49 -0700 (PDT) While browsing in the local library today, waiting for my husband to pick out his weekend reading selection (he takes FOREVER! :-), the recent thread on movie costumes prompted me to go take a look at that section of books. I was pleasantly suprised by one particular book, _The Fabric of Society_, that was kept in that section. I expected _The Fabric of Society_ to concentrate on fabric designs and pictures, which the inside cover suggested was the case, and was pleasantly surprised to find it contained a wonderful collection of pictures of actual historic clothes, both on mannequins and on live models (with close-ups of the fabric). I think what surprised me even more than the quality of the photos and garments was the fact that this was a "Laura Ashley" publication -- something that would've brought derisive snorts from me had I not seen it with my own eyes. :-D The photo that prompted me to post about the book to this list was a close-up photo of a man's "opera"-style cape. The close-up photo clearly showed the wonderful detail in the semi-stand-up collar. It clearly showed the channel quilting of the lower layers that gave the collar shape. The distance photo of the same cape showed the cut and hang of the cape from the shoulders to great advantage. Here's the details on the book: AUTHOR Tozer, Jane. TITLE Fabric of society : a century of people and their clothes, 1770-1870 : essays inspired by the collections at Platt Hall, the Gallery of English Costume, Manchester / by Jane Tozer and Sarah Levitt ; photographs by Mark Cobley ; with a foreword by Laura Ashley. PUBLISHED Carno, Powys, Wales : L. Ashley, 1983. DESCRIPT. 165 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 28 cm. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- End of Volume 177 -----------------------