From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 18:39:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 179, 11/9/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 179, November 9, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: References for Hoops "Killer" costuming adjective "History of Underclothes" by P. Cunnington Period costumes in the movies Killer-costumes-in-bad-movies How long for a gentleman to dress? Creating clothing from descriptions Copyright and photocopying Seeking: Info on everyday work clothes on the American Frontier (1750/1850) ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 11:25:11 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: hooks and eyes On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, erin k. gault wrote: > Also, does anybody know of any really good references on corsets or any > other undergarments (hoops, chemises, etc.)? I have corsets & crinolines > and it doesn't have all that I want in it. At least in the crinoline > department. Thanks for any help! What exactly are you looking for with respect to hoops? If you are looking for 16th century references (I see by your .sig that you are a SCAdian), Janet Arnold (dum dah dum!) refers to a period pattern for one that is *very* cloth economical that comes from the Tailor's Pattern Book by Juan de Alcega, c. 1589. In _Patterns of Fashion: 1560-1620(?)_ she shows a drawing of it made up, alongside the pattern layout copied from the Alcega book. Note that to make this, the instructions are given (I think - its been a while since I've made this up) for cloth that is 22" wide. Also note that this pattern gives a really appropriate and nice looking modest width of hoop for use with garments dated about 1540 to about 1565?. After that fashionable court garments tended to get wider and wider. Note also that the pattern is particularly nifty in that it sews straight grains to bias grains, thus preventing the bias grain "dip" that happens after a while. She also discusses this garment in _Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd_ under the section about "The Queen's Artificers". One interesting thing here is that it seems that a common hoop stuff was rope or scrap fabric rolled into ropes. I have seen this done, and it provides a very nice shape, and a lot more flexibility for wear, particularly at large events where hoopskirted women are a doubloon a dozen. Mistress Elizabeth Talbot, Lady Gendy, OL Beth McMahon, avoiding work this morning ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:33:04 -0600 (CST) From: Sharon Nelson Subject: Re: Question for linguists "Killer" seems to be used fairly frequently these days in things computer--the most recent phrase I've heard that comes to mind is "the killer ap (application) for the Internet," the (yet-to-be-developed) computer application that will make it "unthinkable" for any household to not be connected. Maybe the preponderance of computer folks on the West Coast has brought this into wide use in costume circles? Hope this helps-- Sharon SCA - Maria Anna von Rabenstern =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Sharon L. Nelson sln@nccseq.noctrl.edu Systems Coordinator, Oesterle Library North Central College Naperville, IL 60540 ---------------------------- From: HIST_PS@vax1.utulsa.edu Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 8:00:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: hooks and eyes The History of Underclothes by C. Willett & Phillis Cunnington is back in print and published in an inexpensive (believe it or not) paperback. ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 09:13:14 PST From: "Cynthia" Subject: Re: Movie costumes > > >I'm enjoying this thread on movie costumes immensely!! > Ditto! Recent releases in film fashion: I loved "Princess Caraboo" ('94) especially the Recency court party with the Asian theme... and for the very recent in vintage fashion "Priscilla: Queen of the Desert" with gags on the all girl group get-ups and Motown performers of the 1970s. If you were in high school then, you'll cringe! On "Bram Stoker's Dracula": what costume authenticity?! Oh, sure, everybody still wearing mega-bustles in the 1890s. And 25' red cloaks, and that Byzantine-esque gold gown Dracula travels home in and Goodness Gracious! that silly wedding gown of Lucy's with the ruff.. but Hey it look FAB it the crypt scene when she returns with the child she hasnt killed yet.... I gave the costumer A for Effect and appreciated it with that! --cin cin@caere.com ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:10:21 +0800 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Corp.Sun.COM (Alexandra R. Ohlson) Subject: RE: Movie Costumes >>But The Scarlet Pimpernel (Anthony Andrews/Jane Seymour)?? I have a copy of >>the movie on video (anniversary present) and love it (favourite movie as a >>child and now) but remember watching it with Art Historians in Holland, and >>them groaning over inaccuracies, especially in Jane Seymours costumes... >>;Any comments? Coincidentally, I just watched this on Saturday evening for the first time. Sink me, but I enjoyed it :) It definitely suffered from My-Own-Hair syndrome - no powder or wigs in site. No patches either. The year was 1792 and I know fashions were starting to change somewhat, but I'll have to research in some of my books before I can make any specific comments about the costumes. Lots of fichus of course! :) alexandra ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:30:10 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Getting dressed How long did it take the average gentleman to get dressed?... I can think of a couple periods that probably required a fair amount of assistance from a valet.... Alison ---------------------------- From: vjohnson@mipos3.intel.com Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:14:43 PST Subject: re: Movie costumes AH!!! Daughter's of Darkness!! What wonderful trash!! I saw this at a Halloween film festival and groaned all the way through. The costuming was certainly apropros, and quite well done for the effects needed. What camp! What style! ;^> >> Any other bad-movies-with-clothes- >> to-die-for? :-) > >I saw a 1971 movie a few days ago _Daughter's Of Darkness_ that had some >excellent scenes which totally relied on the brilliance of costume and >gesture. In one scene the lesbian vampire Countess Bathory appears from out >of chiffon curtains wearing a slitthery, silver sequined gown, she sparkled >and shined it didn't matter what she was saying--mesmerizing. The rest of her >wardrobe included a Dietrich-looking veiled hat, red chiffon Halston-type >dress, a black cape, platform boots, etc.. > >Damion ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:19:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Hall Subject: Re: Movie costumes ( That information about the vampire hunter kit was fascinating...I thank you...a cross that's also a pistol? That has some interesting conotations. Thanks for the reply. -Grotesque and Arabesque -Sir.Real ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Creating from book descriptions (was Re: enough house of elliot) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:48:38 -0800 (PST) BUNCHSHER@urvax.urich.edu wrote: > I was under the impression that this list was devoted to discussion of how > historical clothes and modern recreation of these clothes could affect or is > affecting modern fashion. If this is the case who cares what happens to > the cast of House of Elliot. Please let's move on! Well, the HOE discussion (which, I agree, has now lasped into non-h-costume matters) prompted me to get the novelization and read it. I know the TV series had very nice 1910's and 20's clothing, but I really like some of the clothes as described in the novel. That has led me to a genuine h-costume-appropriate question! :-) What is the best and/or easiest way to re-create a historic garment from a description in a book? Can it be done, accurately, from a mere description? My guess is that the best way to start to go about doing this is to: 1. Find pictures of similar garments of that era. This can be tricky depending upon the completeness of the description and/or my interpretation of what the author means... 2. Find pictures of similar material to what has been described in the text. 3. Check historic texts to see how close the author was in _her_ accuracy, or if she missed something or "cheated" and didn't do her homework, or if those types of garments are a figment of her imagination. :-) Comments? Suggestions? -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: 31 Oct 94 23:49 GMT From: KRISTEN@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Nichols, Kristen) Subject: Re2: Getting dressed in the 15 >The book that I've seen that has the most information about dressing and >all from period sources is "Linthicum, M. Channing, _Costume in the Drama >of Shakespeare and HIs Contemporaries_, C 1936, Clarendon Press, >Oxford." This is a wonderful book, and I believe the copyright has >expired, so you can (legally) copy it cover to cover if you can find it >in a nearby library. (I know that its in Bierce Library, the University >of Akron Library in Ohio. I also know that one of the vendors on the >Serengeti sold me a copy for $7.00 at the Pennsic War two wars ago.) I have a question on this: you *legally* can copy a book that is out of copyright and sell it? Possibly Fran can explain this to me in private email instead of going through the list on this. (Sorry Fran, didn't have your email address) I have a few books that are out of print that friends are wanting copies of. If their copyright has expired (how do I check this?) I would like to make them copies. Thanks, K- ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:32:17 -1200 From: althea_sexton@wsu.edu (Althea Sexton) Subject: Re: Movie costumes I saw an interview with the designers for _Priscilla_, and they said they didn't use sewn seams on the costumes. They were glue gunned together. The actor, Terrance . . ., said they were excruciating to wear. But he does have a btter apprieciation for what women go through to get dressed. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - \============/ - - - - - - - XXXXXXXXXXXX - {**********} | Althea L. Sexton |H| | | || | ALTHEA_SEXTON@WSU.EDU |H| | | || | ALTHEA@UIDAHO.EDU |H| | | || - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |H| ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 21:37:03 -0500 (EST) From: Linda Gilbert Subject: clothing 1590-1600; riveted mail Deborah, The clearest and best source I can recommend to you on the subject of how clothing was put together is Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion: The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c. 1560-1620". It particularly covers English clothing, and is a superb resource. She's done another called something like "Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe unlock'd" (that's probably not quite right; it is very costly, and I, alas, do not own a copy.) I think "kirtle" is an ambiguous term, since its meaning changed over time; earlier, it was an underDRESS. I'd just use a descriptive term like underskirt for the garment you're describing.Corsets are definitely in use by this time, although they shape the body in a different fashion than later ones. This list had a very good discussion of corsets earlier this year; you might try searching back "issues". (Maybe Gretchen will review how to do that??) As a sweeping generalization (which, as a historian, you will know is open to attack), Spanish garments tended to be stiffer than English, and use even more black. The only book I know about on Spanish stops at 1530, though, so you'll probably have to extrapolate from Arnold's descriptions of English clothing plus portrait comparisons, unless someone else can help you. (Re-reading your earlier post...don't know why I thought you were doing Italian! Guess I just read it in because it's my area of interest.) Hope this is useful. Best of luck! Do check out Arnold's work; she really does her homework, and is as close as you'll probably be able to get to dissecting garments yourself. Linda P.s. to Walter: I know somebody who makes riveted chain mail. Or made, anyway. He did a coif and a shirt; it took a little longer than forever, but the mail is amazingly light and supple. (Since the links were riveted instead of merely butted together, they could be of much thinner wire.) Just wanted to let you know, since you used the absolute "nobody". :-) (Linda, who has learned to never say never...:-) ) ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 19:47:47 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Ashelford's book; copyright; films Beth asked where to get Ashelford's _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I_. _Books in Print_ should say whether it is still in print. If so, it can be ordered either through a bookstore (special order) or in this case directly from the publisher. Holmes & Meier publishes a number of good costume books and will sell directly to the public. Their address is: Holmes & Meier 30 Irving Place New York, NY 10003 Their costume book brochure is free. Kristen asked whether you can legally copy a book whose copyright has expired and sell it. The answer is yes; publishers like Dover do it all the time. The trick is knowing whether the copyright _has_ expired. In terms of 20th-century American works, from 1909 till the end of 1977 copyright was controlled by the Copyright Act of 1909. Registered works were copyright for 28 years, and registration could be renewed for another 28. Copyright protection changed in 1977. It is now the lifetime of the author plus 50 years, or in certain cases simply 75 years after publication. You should be able to get information on whether a specific work is still copyright by contacting the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, DC 20559. (This is the only address they give.) Note that getting anything from them, even a simple form, is a _staggeringly_ slow process. It exceeds stereotypes of governmental beaurocracy. Don't bother trying to call them--all you get is recordings that refer you to another Copyright Office number, which refers you back to the first number. . . One book that gives a good simple explanation of copyright law is _Author Law and Strategies_, by Brad Bunnin, published by Nolo Press in Berkeley, California. In practice, people often make single copies of out-of-print but not out-of-copyright books for themselves without encountering retribution. But selling such copies, in my opinion, is a more serious violation. About the discussion of film costumes--I'm surprised nobody has mentioned _Room with a View_ or _Howard's End_. Or for that matter _Out of Africa_. I think all three have great costumes as well as being excellent renditions of the original books. In _Howard's End_, I am sure the lingerie dress worn by Margaret when Mr. Wilcox proposed was an original. The past year or so several of the vintage clothing dealers I buy from have been selling and renting lots of original garments to TV and film producers; one dealer I know went exclusively into that business, full time. A few years ago a film of _The Europeans_ came out, which had great costumes as well as, again, being a faithful rendition of the book. Another film I really liked was _Shadow of the Raven_ an Icelandic film (with subtitles) that did its best to portray Iceland in 1088 as it really was. The costumes looked plausible (though I didn't research their accuracy) and most of the characters were appropriately greasy-haired and snaggle-toothed. (Though the heroine always had clean hair.) But the film's portrayal of a marginal farming-and-fishing community really brought the chronicles to life. The racks and racks of drying fish. . .and the impulsive violence. You're mad at somebody? Kill them! Sure, you might feel sorry tomorrow, but why think of that now? Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 22:16:41 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Wilde Subject: common/work clothing Looking for primary source documentation on common/work clothing for men, women and children (not the types of things that survive in museums, generally) between 1750-1850, preferably outside the Eastern, more settled areas-ie., Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Great Lakes area, and expecially Missouri/Lousiana Territory. Also, any documentation on women wearing breeches/trousers, same period. And documentation on wearing of smocks in this country and the various meanings of the word (often same as chemise, when mentioned in context of women's wear.) Ed Wilde ---------------------------- End of Volume 179 -----------------------