From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 18:36:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 180, 11/10/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 180, November 10, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Deodorizing clothing Period costumes in the movies Seeking Info on rick-rack history Getting dressed in Elizabethan days/Ropes for hoops History of hooks and eyes Seeking info on Civil War shoes and hats Copyrights and photocopying Wearing straight pins Questions about detachable sleeves and jeweled clothing The color red in period clothing WWI Trench coat ISO address for "Pieceworks" Chain mail in the movies ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 00:21:30 CST From: "Brunette" Subject: odor in clothing For what its worth, this weekend I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture & workshop by Kenneth King- San Francisco designer- here in Minneapolis. He mentioned his "formula" for deodorizing clothing which cleaned infrequently: a spray bottle of cheap vodka. In the context it was discussed, I took it to mean for removing body odor. I don't know whether it would work for other odors, or what the long term effect would be on fibers. He spoke of it as though it was a well-known concept. I had never heard of it before, but plan to try it on my son's U of MN marching band uniform, and if it works, I'll use it again... --CarolJane ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 17:44:14 +0900 From: d9304570@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: re: movie costumes >Nobody has yet mentioned the Gerard Depardieu film from a couple of years >ago--Toutes les matins du monde--about violists da gamba Ste. Colombe and > *cut* Oh, that reminds me. How about the movie that Sommersby was a reworking of - great peasant and lanchnecht. I think its called "The Return of Martin Geurre" (or something very like that) Miesje. __________ @)--%-- -------- d9304570@student.anu.edu.au ___________ ---------------------------- From: HIST_PS@vax1.utulsa.edu Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 7:56:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: rick-rack In order to try to date some clothing, I am trying to find out when rick- rack was first used. I called Wright Co. and they have no history as to its inception. I am looking for manufactured rick-rack that was sold to the public. Any information would be helpful. hist_ps@vax1.utulsa.edu ---------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 01 Nov 94 13:51:00 BST Subject: 1590s Dressing Elizabeth McMahon, on 31.10.94, wrote that in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd' (I wish I could afford it!) Janet Arnold talks about 'a common hoop stuff was rope or scrap fabric rolled into ropes'. I am confused about this. Is she saying that the 'rope's' were used to hold out the hooped farthingale as it develops from the 1540's? I thought whalebone was used, with possibly Norfolk reed, as in one of the corsets in 'Patterns of Fashion'. I (and other Kentwellies) usually use crinoline steel. I wouldn't have thought rope would create the stiff outline. If, however, you are talking about what we call bumrolls, then I understand. These are used earlier, to create the extravagant hip outline, but really come into their own in the late 1590s and 1600s, when they imitate the French farthingale (coffee table look). The outline is softer than with the steel hooped farthingale. I use calico (heavy weight raw cotton) stuffed with waste fabric (great for using up the offcuts) and old tights! In short, do they sit on the hips, exaggerating the outline, or are they layered (hoops) down the petticoat? On the question of dressing time, as a supplement to the really useful references given, a personal view. I used to find that it took me at least an hour to get dressed. This is with co-operative hair (red and curly), no make-up, and helpful friends (who also needed help to get dressed). It would be impossible (virtually?) to get dressed without help (theres a bold statement someone will contradict!). Looking at house layouts, 'dressing rooms' do not seem to come in until the 18th century, and even then they seem to have been used as private retreats/reading & writing rooms rather than as dressing rooms - where the original furniture survives. Where there are smaller rooms 'off' or very near a main bedroom (very unusual, but Bolton Castle, North Yorks, England has one or two), they are reasonably well identified as maids rooms or nursery. Oh yes, the terminology for the person helping someone dress would be maid, or, more likely, attendant. An attendant was a junior member of the same class, probably related eg niece or cousin, who would spend their formative years in a household other than her (and his) mother & father. The levees of the French aristocracy in the 17th century also took place in the bedroom, not a separate room for the purpose. Hope this helps Caroline ---------------------------- From: Renactr2@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 17:02:49 -0500 Subject: Re: RE: hooks and eyes Gerry Embleton, Curator of the armour museum in Grandson, is also the primary illustrator for the Osprey Men-at-Arms series. He is also in charge of a 1470's re-enactment group. In material he sent me on mens clothing for the Wars of the Roses period, he shows hook and eyes used as early as 1440. Anyone have an earlier date? Cheers, Jim Burrill Renactr2@aol.com ---------------------------- From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 22:36:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Civil War shoes and hats I portray a lower middle class to lower class Southern woman at Civil War reenactments and living history events. I would like to make my own "ersatz" or make-shift period shoes and also a handmade straw hat or bonnet to show the shortages and hardships of the latter period of the war. Has anyone else out there made their own Civil War women's shoes? I have seen a pair with wooden soles, upholstery uppers, and salvaged lacing holes at the Siege Museum in Petersburg, VA. Has anyone else seen any similar homemade women's shoes, with either wooden or leather soles? I have grown my own wheat and cut it, and I have the instructions in a recent issue of _Piecework_ on braiding and sewing a simple hat. I have also briefly seen a woman's hat and a man's hat at the Museum of the Confederacy. The woman's hat was lined in silk, and both had a simple braid hatband. Has anyone else done something like this for the Civil War era? Any suggestions? Thanks for your help. Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ---------------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: re: movie costumes Date: Tue, 01 Nov 94 08:29:00 PST >>Nobody has yet mentioned the Gerard Depardieu film from a couple of years >>ago--Toutes les matins du monde--about violists da gamba Ste. Colombe and >> *cut* > >Oh, that reminds me. How about the movie that Sommersby was a reworking of >- great peasant and lanchnecht. I think its called "The Return of Martin >Geurre" (or something very like that) > >Miesje. >__________ >@)--%-- >-------- >d9304570@student.anu.edu.au >___________ Yes, it was The Return of Martin Guerre, and yes, the costumes were wonderful! There was also a very interesting Renaissance movie with Rutger Hauer (_not_ "Ladyhawke") that had lovely Italian costumes--although the usual "this is my hair and I'm not covering it" rule applied. How about "The Fearless Vampire Killers" for great '60s interpretation of Victorian--as well as a fabulously campy movie! And so far as "Bram Stoker's Dracula" is concerned, I _knew_ it would win the Oscar for best costume because they were so awful! While I was awed by the horribleness of the wedding dress, my very favourite was Renfrew's dryer-hose costume from the madhouse.... - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 9:57:49 -0600 (CST) From: JENNIFER CARLSON Subject: Rope-stuffed hoops In answer to Caroline's query: The lady was indeed talking about hoopskirts that use rope for the hoops. I too have seen these, and they seem practical. As with cord quilting, you run the rope (or rolled fabric) into narrow channels sewn into the hoopskirt. Packed in tightly enough, the roping causes the skirt to stand out. This kind of skirt is more flexible than one based on canes or steel, making passing through crowds and narrow doorways a more graceful operation. You can also sit down in a chair without danger of acting like a swinging bell and showing off everything. I've seen a 16th century illustration (I THINK it's in one of the Arnold books, but I can't remember for sure) of a Spanish woman sitting down on the floor with her knees drawn up, in one of these skirts. There seems to be a rope channel about every handspan's width down the length of the skirt. Since there are so many extra hoops, and since a rope or cloth hoop will be heavier than a steel or plastic one, the skirt will be somewhat heavier done in this manner. The first skirt I saw done in this style used, instead of rope, long strands of beaded curtain weights: those small lead-shot beads encased in cotton tubing. Two or three strand had been sewn together, very tightly, into a casing, and the whole assembly used as a hoop. It seemed to hold out more firmly than rope, and so not as many hoops were needed for the same effect, but it was just as flexible, which was important to the owner, who wanted to be able to pack it away easily without having to disassemble it. Jennifer Carlson JLC@vax2.utulsa.edu ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:49:37 +0800 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Corp.Sun.COM (Alexandra R. Ohlson) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: mea culpa I will not respond without researching, I will not respond without researching.... Regarding my off-the-cuff comments about The Scarlett Pimpernel and inappropriate hair, etc. Well I went home last night and looked at some color fashion plates from the year in question (1792). I still don't know if the costume/hair is correct, but I was off base in what I was expecting (powder, wigs) I hadn't realized how quickly (1789 to 1792) fashion had been moderated by the influence of the revolution. alexandra ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 12:54:32 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Re2: Getting dressed in the 15 -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* On 31 Oct 1994 KRISTEN@applelink.apple.com wrote: > >expired, so you can (legally) copy it cover to cover if you can find it > >in a nearby library. (I know that its in Bierce Library, the University > >of Akron Library in Ohio. I also know that one of the vendors on the > >Serengeti sold me a copy for $7.00 at the Pennsic War two wars ago.) > > I have a question on this: you *legally* can copy a book that is out of > copyright and sell it? Possibly Fran can explain this to me in private email > instead of going through the list on this. (Sorry Fran, didn't have your email > address) I have a few books that are out of print that friends are wanting > copies of. If their copyright has expired (how do I check this?) I would like > to make them copies. Mea culpa, mea culpa! I have just spoken to my local publishing guru about copyrights, and he gave me all the inof that Fran posted earlier. I also hav him looking into the Clarendon Press in Oxford. I have no idea whether M. Linthicum is dead or has been dead for 50 years or not. And, I have no idea whether the people from whom I bought the Xeroxed copy of his/her work had investigated these possibilities. So, in the interests of good nettiquette, and wanting to support the sort of authors writing the sort of books we rely on (who are few and far between, and can't possibly be making a decent living writing them), I wish to apologize for posting this information. I very much support writers (and designers) getting paid fairly for their work, and I'm very sorry if my earlier posting leads to any misunderstandings or infringement upon and author's rights. Mea culpa, mea culpa! (And its a really great book! :*) Beth McMahon, whose brain was obviously off yesterday ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:38:30 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: straight pins to keep oneself together >So there you have it. If something on your favorite dress won't stay >where you need it to - pin it the heck down! ;*) (my comments pertain mostly to 18th century) Of course! Besides, you are wearing full "body armor" if you have a "fully boned" corset. The examples I've seen of fully boned corsets have barely room for stitching between each piece of boning. If you leave any fabric gap between the stays, it's usually a "half-boned" or "partially-boned" corset. But I stray ... my point is that you are pretty well protected from straight pins. Stomachers were commonly pinned in place, and the gown over them pinned down too. If there was no lacing or ribbons holding the fronts on (during the period where the gown didn't meet, but showed off the decorative stomacher) then the gown was pinned in place. The corset also protects you in that it prevents you from doing much bending, or moving in such a way that the straight pins will stick you. If the pins weren't sticking you when you inserted them, you aren't likely to move about enough to move them into a different position wherein they CAN stick you. For the most part, anyway! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ---------------------------- From: annalea@its.com (Annalea Sommerville) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 16:19:47 -0600 Subject: Detachable sleeves and jewles on clothing I've heard of gowns with detachable sleeves. Can anyone comment on this, i.e. what time period, where, etc.? When did sleeves become attatched? Also, in several historical romance novels that I've read (particularly by Bertreace Small - her writing is very detail oriented and filled with colorful descriptions when it comes to clothing and food), court women often had the front of their gowns stitched in fanciful designs - flowers and bees, lambs in a meadow, heavenly bodies - usually embellished with precious and semi-precious stones (these gowns were usually worn at masques). How were these attatched? Annalea Sommerville annalea@its.com ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 17:31:21 -0500 (EST) From: SHEILA FFOLLIOTT Subject: red There was a good discussion of yellow last month, may we now turn to red? A student in a class I'm teaching on Renaissance and Baroque painting is interested in red costumes on male musicians in paintings by Dutch genre painters. Since black clothing was the Dutch norm, the red seems unusual. Do we know anything about the symbolic significance of red: did it indicate social status? Were red dyes more expensive? Who was entitled to wear red (cardinals, obviously)? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Sheila ffolliott Art History George Mason University ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 17:20:01 PST From: donna@Kwantlen.BC.CA (Donna Hrynkiw) Subject: Re: Chain mail--history & construction "K.C. Kozminski" says: > Their's a theatrical tric of using light-wieght wire that is twisted, > then hammered flat and applied in rows to a base garment, this how most > "Hollywood" chain-mail is made. I always thought it was knitted with heavy cord and spray-painted silver. That's the way *most* of the Hollywood mail [see Note below] looks to me! :-) Even the more recent stuff. [Note: Folks in the know tell me that there ain't no such stuff as "chain mail". The proper armouring term is just "mail". Impress your friends, stump your enemies. :-) ] Donna (not *that* Donna, the Lurking Donna) donna@kwantlen.bc.ca ---------------------------- From: RCarnegie@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:51:37 -0500 Subject: WW1 Trench Coat It sounds like you are describing a overcoat. If it is U.S. it will have buttons of blackened bronze. These should NOT be cleaned. The dark colour is quite on purpose ( it helps to prolong the uniform wearer's life). As far as cleaning, I would reccommend the period way to clean the uniform. Air it out, and brush it. Do not take it to a cleaners or wash it yourself. I promise you that my coat of the same description has seen much worse action that what your brother shall do to it and it comes clean by following the 1916 government approved method. R. Carnegie WW1 Reenactor ---------------------------- From: HIST_PS@vax1.utulsa.edu Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 7:38:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: rickrack and Pieceworks Magazine I requested information on the history of rickrack this week and I was referred to "Pieceworks" magazine and told I could find the address in "Threads". I no longer subscribe to threads and was unable to locate the address of Pieceworks in any back issues. Perhaps somebody can post an address and phone number for me and maybe even knows what issue contains the article on rick rack. Thanks. HIST_PS@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:21:32 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: Chain mail--history & construction More "Chain letters" (AR AR AR!) > > I always thought it was knitted with heavy cord and spray-painted silver. > That's the way *most* of the Hollywood mail [see Note below] looks to me! > :-) Even the more recent stuff. > > Donna (not *that* Donna, the Lurking Donna) > donna@kwantlen.bc.ca > As far as I can tell, there are three varieties of theatrical chain-mail, knitted or crocheted, metal of light wieght wire and an open weave, and the twisted wire stuff I mentioned. You can see all three in Brannagh's Henry V, I've also come across all three types in the Costume Collection in NYC. The twisted wire stuff was used, I think (it looks like the same stuff) in "The War Lord" (didn't Chuck Heston look great in his younger years?) KC ---------------------------- End of Volume 180 -----------------------