From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:10:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 182, 11/17/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 182, November 17, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Sumptuary laws The camblet Meaning of dressed and undressed The used clothing trade in the 18th C rec.crafts.beads passes Question and answers: posey rings Period costumes in the movies Costumes in Coppola's Dracula More questions on the order of dressing in 1590 Coppola/Braunaugh's Frankenstein Address for "Dress in the Age of Elizabeth" publishers ---------------------------- From: SLNZC@cc.usu.edu Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 13:13:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: sumptuary laws sumptuary laws were made for a variety of reason, with the prevelant theory being that they were made to maintain class distinctions. In my thesis, I hope to offer other reasons for them, because a close reading of the laws shows there was more going on than peasant john wearing a long tunic. The 16th century was a period of great change economically (the beginings of consumerism), socially (the blurring of class distinctions), politically, and religiously (the Reformation--which had a direct affect on social intercourse). Sumptuary laws are a small example of this overall change and tell a lot about how government dealt with its perceived problems. again, sorry for the tangent.... Theresa ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:46:34 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: 18th cent. clothing terminology On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Mary Wood wrote: > familiar with the terms. One garment is called a 'camblet'. I > looked this up, and it talks about fabric made from camels hair, or a > mixture of wool and silk, or a garment made from these materials. It The word "camblet" also sounds like a combination of something like "cambric" and "corselet". Can it be that this was some part of the underwear coverings? I don't know this period in great detail, but could this mean something other than the fabric you've found reference to? Words strike me of having been much more amorphous before this century (kirtle is a good example). > type of dress. There was also reference to a 'boy's waistcoat'. > She is described as 'dressed' when wearing only this, but it seems, to > my vision of a waistcoat, that it would be too short for a girl to be > considered 'dressed' if that's all she had on. Can someone help me It sounds as though she was in some middle state of undress, with garments hasitly thrown on, IMO (which is prolly not real valuable in this instance). Or, perhaps this is a case of unmentionables really being so. Seems to me a "boy's waistcoat" also could refer to a particular style of waistcoat, since it was pretty common, especially in lower class dress to wear a skirt/jacket combo. I believe that women's bodice/jackets were referred to as waistcoats sometimes. Just some random guesses? I'm sure someone else will have more solid answers.... Beth McMahon, Panix employee/escapeee..... ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 14:01:31 PST From: lindar@raven1.imatron.com (Linda Roy) Subject: Re: 18th cent. clothing terminology On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Mary Wood wrote: > type of dress. There was also reference to a 'boy's waistcoat'. > She is described as 'dressed' when wearing only this, but it seems, to > my vision of a waistcoat, that it would be too short for a girl to be > considered 'dressed' if that's all she had on. Can someone help me I have read about the term "undressed" being applied to the Irish women of the Renaissance period, when in fact they were completely covered, but didn't have a particular outer garment on. I remember that my grandfather didn't think a man was dressed if he wasn't wearing his tie, waistcoat, and coat (an exposed shirt was never allowed at the dinner table!). Perhaps the use of "dressed" when wearing a waistcoat is similar to these uses of the word/s? Linda Roy linda_roy@imatron.com ---------------------------- From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:38:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: 18th Cent Clothing Having spent the last year working with runaway servant ads, I can say that descriptions of clothing often omit the more basic items. The woman in question may have in fact had on moe than was written down, you never know. Also, there was a comment on the used clothing business. In Europe this was certainly thriving in the 18th century, as in some parts of the U.S., but I have come across references from Williamsburg stores which state they had to return used clothes sent to Virginia from England because no one in Virginia would buy them. (circa 1770-1774). it was) Along this line, does anyone have references on how long a person of the lower sort (servant mostly) would commonly try to salvage their clothing? What I'm getting at is how likely is it that a servant in 1774 would be wearing clothes more than 5 or 10 years old? Bryan Howard Deptartment of Anthropology Texas A&M University BPH3213@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU (sorry for the typos) ---------------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: RESULT: rec.crafts.beads passes 250:32 Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:42:59 -0800 (PST) Just FYI, everyone, since the RFD and CFV's were carried on this list too: VOTE RESULT Unmoderated group rec.crafts.beads Newsgroups line: rec.crafts.beads Making, collecting, and using beads. Voting for rec.crafts.beads closed 23:59:59 UTC, 31 October 1994. There were 250 YES votes and 32 NO votes, for a total of 282 valid votes. There was 1 abstain and 10 invalid ballots. 20 ballots were superceded or deleted as duplicates. For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Votetaker: Ed Bailey Proponent: tashina CHARTER This group would be a forum for all types of bead-related discussions: beadmaking - There has been a great increase in the last few years in the number of people making beads. Discussions of all forms of beadmaking will be welcomed in this newsgroup. bead collecting - In this group there will be room to discuss African trade beads, American Indian embroidered beadwork and any other collections people may have as well as keeping current on gallery and Museum shows. Other possible topics include: * beadweaving * clothing design * stringing techniques * discussions for bead instructors * new catalog sources -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:03:29 -0800 (PST) From: Maryjo Bruce Subject: Posy Rings What are Posy/posey rings? Friends had them made for their wedding. ---------------------------- From: jsargent@hmg.com Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 12:44:32 Subject: Re: Posy Rings Traditionally given as a token of intent or affection, posey rings generally bore a floral motif with an inscription of something like "always", or "you and no other" on the upper surface (rather than on the inside where most rings are inscribed). Most of the major museum catalogues carry a selection of reproductions. -jef ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Movie costumes (Scarlett Pimpernel) >But The Scarlet Pimpernel (Anthony Andrews/Jane Seymour)?? I have a copy of >the movie on video (anniversary present) and love it (favourite movie as a >child and now) but remember watching it with Art Historians in Holland, >and them groaning over inaccuracies, especially in Jane Seymours >costumes... Any comments? Haven't seen this one, but I always loved the Leslie Howard/Merle Oberon version. Whether or not the costumes are accurate, Leslie Howard looks marvelous in those tight suits, and it's a hoot to see big ol' Nigel Bruce trying very hard (as the Prince of Wales) to look just like Leslie Howard.... Offhand, I always thought the costumes in that one were quite good accuracy wise for that period in movie history. toodles, gretchen ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:43:43 -0800 (PST) From: Maryjo Bruce Subject: Re: Posy Rings I appreciate all the interesting information. I have gotten one reply which says that the correct spelling is poesy because it includes poetry, and others which say it is posy because it has a floral motif. Sunny ---------------------------- From: bjones.cra@mailgate.sfsu.edu Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 17:51:00 PST Subject: Dracula costumes the costumes in Dracula are certainly wonderful, even though they are only "Hollywood Historical".... You might be interested to know that on the dress with the very celtic entwined snakes...the most of the snakes are hand embroidered, but many of the snakes on the back bustle and train are painted.... .apparently because they knew it would only be seen in a long shot. There is also a horizontally striped mans waistcoat...I don't remember who wore it...made of multipatterned striped brocade, then many of the stripes are hand beaded with indian beadwork. It's gorgeous...but you can't see the beadwork from three feet away...and in the film it's never apparent. I've seen lots of the costumes...but not the Klimpt inspired robe....I'd love to see *that* up close. Bill ........................................................... Bill Jones, Theatre Arts Department, San Francisco State University {bjones.cra@mailgate.sfsu.edu} (415) 338-1777 "Sometimes it's more important to be human, than to have good taste" Brecht "Being a good craftsman will in no way prevent you from having Genius" Renoir ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 16:57:30 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 177, 11/4/94 re: Dracula I read the book when I was about 14 and still think it's probably the scariest book I've ever read. I've tried very hard to see the various Drac movies...the absolutely *worst* thing about Coppola's was the casting!! None of those people belonged in that movie! They were horrid! Gary Oldman is a good actor, but The Count is supposed to be *sexy* in his dark and melodramatic way, and Gary ain't. Keanu Reeves and Winona look like kids playing dress-up, also terrible accents. regarding costumes however, I really loved the Count's red "outfit", just like a splash of blood, too surreal to even pretend to any kind of "authenticity" -- also the wonderful Klimt-style gown he's killed in. I cant imagine that the wretched Lucy's wedding gown (where did they get that woman) was at all accurate, but it "was" beautiful, tho' rather Elizabethan-looking. (personal favourite Draculas was Frank Langella, the one with Kate Nelligan and Laurence Olivier--real actors and sexy Count) It's Fri. quitting time--forgive ravings and have a nice week-end, y'all. susan fatemi ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 16:30:25 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Posey rings >What are Posy/posey rings? Friends had them made for their wedding. It's silly Victorian sentimental jewelry (there may be earlier examples, too) .. with flowers (for friendships, family) and sometimes with clasped hands, heart(s), crosses (representing faith) and anchors (just what this represents, I forget; maybe constancy?) that were given for engagements, weddings, anniversaries, birth of child. Other sentimental jewelry types are the REGARD rings (the names of the stones forming an anagram: Ruby, Emerald, Garnet, Amythest, Ruby, Diamond), the ever so famous mourning jewelry and stupid baby jewelry. I particularly like the Gimmel rings where three ring segments (kind of like a puzzle ring) rotate. The outside two have hands that clasp when the ring is closed; when opened the hands slide apart revealing a heart on the inside ring. Sweet as candy! You can find pics in most any book on "Appreciating Antique Jewelry", or a "Jewelry Buyer's Guide". --cin ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 07:48:32 -0500 (EST) From: Deborah S Labriola Subject: Order of dressing When getting dressed in the 1590's, the chemise was the first piece of clothing worn. What came next, the underbodice or the farthingale? Did the bodice go on after the overskirt? Was the skirt kept in place with tapes? ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 08:08:35 -0500 (EST) From: Deborah S Labriola Subject: Order of dressing in the 1590's After the chemise, did the underbodice or the farthingale come next? What was put on first, the bodice or the under/over skirts? When were the stocking usually put on, and how were they held up? Were the skirts held in place by tapes at the waist? Thank you, Deborah - student (obviously) ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Hall Subject: Re: Posey rings There is a magazine called Past Times "Fine Gifts from Great Britain Inspired By the Past" and it has a few of these kinds of rings..obviously they're reproductions...but in case anyone's interested they have gold posey rings (You and no other), the silver gimal ring (two hands clasped around a heart..comes apart in three pieces) and some others. It's a neat catalog if you haven't seen it..If you want to put yourself on another snail mail mailing list and no doubt be subscribed to twenty other catalogs at teh same time...their number is (800)-621-6020 -Grotesque and Arabesque -Sir.Real ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:50:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Hall Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 177, 11/4/94 Yes well, what did people think of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? Were the costumes accurate? One of my many complaints about this film is it seemed to lack historical flavour that's present in other period films. I don't know what exactly was missing...but it just didn't seem "real." In Dangerous Liaisons I felt submerged in the atmosphere...well anyway...what did other people think? -Grotesque and Arabesque -Sir.Real ---------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:10:52 -0500 (EST) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Movie costumes (Scarlett Pimpernel) On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Gretchen Miller wrote: > >But The Scarlet Pimpernel (Anthony Andrews/Jane Seymour)?? I have a copy of > >the movie on video (anniversary present) and love it (favourite movie as a > >child and now) but remember watching it with Art Historians in Holland, > >and them groaning over inaccuracies, especially in Jane Seymours > >costumes... Any comments? > > Haven't seen this one, but I always loved the Leslie Howard/Merle Oberon > version. Whether or not the costumes are accurate, Leslie Howard looks > marvelous in those tight suits, and it's a hoot to see big ol' Nigel > Bruce trying very hard (as the Prince of Wales) to look just like Leslie > Howard.... Offhand, I always thought the costumes in that one were > quite good accuracy wise for that period in movie history. > > toodles, gretchen > If I recall correctly, Merle Oberon's dresses had little to do with the period. I believe she had a sleeveless gown on during the ball scene... I haven't seen this version in quite some time, though, so I may be mis-remembering. Astrida ( who should be working on a project right now but is (of course) procrastinating) ---------------------------- From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Re: Posey rings Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 08:34:58 -0500 (EST) > What are Posy/posey rings? Friends had them made for their wedding. > > It's silly Victorian sentimental jewelry (there may be earlier > examples, too) .. with flowers (for friendships, family) and > sometimes with clasped hands, heart(s), crosses (representing > faith) and anchors (just what this represents, I forget; maybe > constancy?) that were given for engagements, weddings, > anniversaries, birth of child. Posy rings are far older than the Victorian period; they were known at least in Elizabethan times, and I believe Medieval examples exist. The "posy" is not a flower, but a poem (i.e. "poesy", or poetry) engraved either inside or outside the ring. There isn't room for more than a short couplet, unless the lady had extraordinary fingers. The only one I can remember off the top of my head is "Je suis ici/En lieu d'ami" -- "I am here in the place of a friend". Betsy Perry ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 14:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: Diana Dills To: Gretchen Miller Subject: Movie Costumes Has anyone on the List seen Tom Stoppard's movie "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead?" The lighting was realistic, even though it made it hard to appreciate all the detailing on the costumes, but they had a gritty reality to them, especially the two main character's traveling costumes. There were also a group of mummers who sported an amazing variety of costumes (for a traveling troupe) and some theatrical court dress. Anyone see this film and care to comment? DIANA DILLS ps. If you can follow the rhetoric and metaphysical juxtapositions, and the device of using a play within a play, within a play, all being portrayed, ultimately, by a puppet show, it's a great movie, but not for the irony-impaired. ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:47:38 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Ashelford's book; copyright; films On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Allan Terry wrote: > Beth asked where to get Ashelford's _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I_. > _Books in Print_ should say whether it is still in print. If so, it can be I called the company this afternoon, and this book is now out of print. If anyone sees a copy of it, will he/she let me know? > > Holmes & Meier > 30 Irving Place > New York, NY 10003 Their address has changed: Holmes & Meier 160 Broadway East Building (between Maiden Lane and Liberty) New York, NY 10038 212-374-0100 Thanks for the info! Beth McMahon, book-a-holic ---------------------------- End of Volume 182 -----------------------