From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:59:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 184, 11/17/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 184, November 17, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Detailed question and answer: Rural (New) English Clothing pre-1640 Smells moths hate Welcome message redux Address and subscription info for Pieceworks Order of dressing in 1590 ISO Period weaponry "Shift" ---------------------------- From: Tracy023@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:13:44 -0500 Subject: 17th C Eng. and N. Amer. Hello, I'm new here but have been reading the messages for several weeks. I'm seeking help on the details of clothing worn in rural England from about 1600 to 1640 and in New England from roughly 1630 to 1700. I've gotten some information from books but it is vague. I mentioned this in a post to the group a few months back. I even checked with the head of the costume section at the Smithsonian who tried to be helpful but said that era is a missing link in research. Nothing detailed has been written about it. I've followed the thread on order of dressing in the 1590s with great interest, the problem being that I'm not dealing with royalty. I do know that wealthy landowners both in Eng and N. America leading up to the Reformation and beyond apparently had no rule against color. The bigger restriction was cost and available colors. Even at the height of Puritanism, I gather, red, gray and blue were the primary colors of everyday womens skirts. Black, for men and women, was expensive and saved for Sunday, except if you were very wealthy or a minister. [I'm not talking here about the laws against dressing above your station or economic means.] In trying to describe an ordinary farmer [not poor and not extremely wealthy], starting from the inside-out, what did they customarily use for underwear? Women, I gather, wore at least one petticoat ["coat"?] and, the agricultural middleclass would have worn how many more for ordinary dress? Two? Three? More than that? What, if anything, did they wear under their petticoats? And what about women's stockings--middleclass, rural women. Were they knitted? How far up the leg did they go? How did they hold them up? Did they wear them in the summer? Then came the outer skirt. When rural women got dressed up for church etc. did they wear anything under their skirts to puff them out besides petticoats? The "coats" and skirts I gather were tied around the waist? Bodice. How did women keep themselves together--in other words was the bodice long enough that it went well down below the skirt waist so that it didn't come untucked or did they have some other system to keep their tops from riding up? What went under the bodice? Were they laced up the front from the entire period 1600-1700? What about necklines in agricultural areas? And were sleeves always tied to the bodice throughout that period or, in rural areas did they sew the sleeves to the bodice? Did they ever go bare armed in the rural zones--like in the kitchen in hot weather? And the men. I've seen what are supposed to be accurate drawings of the clothing of some rural men for that era. The everyday, work on the farm look appears to be pants that come below the knee and are tied in place there. I can't tell from the drawings but I gather they also were tied around the waist? What did men wear under them? These pants, I gather, usually were brown. Did men also wear other colors? Did men always wear stockings? Were they knitted? Did they come just below the bottom of the pants or did they go up under them? The shirts I've seen were loose with roundish necklines that seemed to go below the collarbone--or right in that area. I can't figure out the sleeves. Were they sewn in or did they also come off? How long was the "average" sleeve? They appear to stop well above the man's wrist but I can't really tell. Were they tied to keep them from flapping or just sewn big enough to get a hand through? Jackets for men and women. In chilly weather what did they wear over their indoor clothes? I've read in some court records and wills references to something that sounds like a cape but I haven't found any pictures. Hats. Men, from about 1630-1660??? wore what I gather became known as those black witches hats--the ones with the pointy top. I've seen pictures of hats and they appear to be made of felt with a wide brim and the pointy top. Is it safe to assume that the effects of rain, snow, wind etc. is what gave some that "witch" effect, twisted, battered? When exactly did those hats go out of style in rural areas? And what replaced them? Women, indoors and out, are pictured wearing what appears to be a cotton/lace sort of close-fitting hair cover that seems to change quiet a bit in style. Can someone help me put dates to the women's head fashions? Those Puritan white collars. In rural areas, it appears that anyone who could afford those white collars wore them, but again, only to church or to town on official business, like to go to court. Even the wealthier rural landowners, it looks like, didn't wear those around the house or doing any kind of physical work. Is this true? What about knitting? Did people in winter wear knitted gloves or mittens or anything like that on their hands? What about leather gloves in rural areas? Did they normally wear knitted scarves around their necks for warmth? What about shawls--worn insid the house and outside. Were they in common use in rural areas? Thank you for any help. I'm cross-posting this to the Early American History list too so I'm sorry if anyone is annoyed by the duplication. Tracy ---------------------------- From: KanjiMan@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 06:33:09 -0500 Subject: For the love of moths I hate to bring up the past like this. But what smells great and will help to repel moths?!? LAVENDER the popular bathroom flower and ingredient try it! :-) hope this helps!! ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 18:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Welcome message Folks, Here's a copy fo the welcome message to remind you of all the details you need to get the most out of this list and its archives. I'll try to post it periodically (about every month or two) from now on. toodles, gretchen --------------------- Last modified: October 2, 1994 Welcome to the historic costume mailing list! To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send e-mail to: h-costume-REQUEST@andrew.cmu.edu asking to be removed from the list. WHAT WE'RE ABOUT: This list concentrates on recreating period costume, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, and the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Shows, museums, galleries and publications suitable for education or inspiration, training opportunities available through schools and workshops, design and motivational issues, collective group projects, and exchanges of materials are all also of interest to this list. 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Save this message for reference and thank you and enjoy the list! ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Profit Subject: Address for Pieceworks Magazine Hi. Pieceworks Magazine Interweave Press, 201 e. 4th St. Dept. I-WP Loveland, CO 805537 1 800 645-3675 voice or 1 (303) 667-8317 U.S. Subscription rates $21 for one year, $28 for two years, back issues run around $4, not all of which are available. @}->- :) Tinne Laughter Heals :D -<-{@ ---------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 11 Nov 94 16:39:00 BST Subject: 1590s dressing I thought I would mention a couple of things that have interested me in comments on the 1590s upper class dressing, and then give Tracy some answers to her long list of queries! 1590s I don't seem to have half the problems with farthingales other people have mentioned! I haven't found mine move around - even under man-made fibres (only used once!). I just put it on a snug waistband that sits over the corset, and there it stays! I also haven't found it billowing up in unfortunate circumstances (including falling over in various different shapes of farthingale) This might be because I tend to wear velvet over it, or because it is constructed differently from Victorian chrinolines. Vague memories of a Victorian underwear exhibition I saw a number of years ago seem to indicate channels running down the chrinoline as well as around it. Using chrinoline steel its not too difficult to store/transport either - it collapses. Anyway, to get back to the questions, I have not tied anything to the corset (except the supportass at the neck) and not had any problems. I tend to use very firm wide waistband for the late periods higher levels to give room to firmly fix the cartridge pleating around the back of the skirt as well as the bottom of the 'jacket' and the tabs. These are wonderful for hiding whatever connection you have between the top of the gown and the skirt - as they are for the same job between a mans doublet and his hose. Anyway, after constructing the 'jacket' and skirt as two elements, they then get sown together onto the waistband and worn as one garment. You can see clearly in the pictures where it is likely they were separate - they used different coloured materials. 17th Century Since Tracy starts in rural England in 1600 I shall venture an opinion, but the later period and New England may be different. Try Janet Arnold again, but admittedly she tends to be upperclass because the evidence is better. There are two main, conflicting trends that certainly apply in England in the 16th century. Firstly, people wanted to ape their betters and wear fashionable clothes - this tends to be a younger persons attitude then as now. Secondly clothes wore very well, much better than we expect them to today. People inherited clothes, and could well be expected to still have clothes they wore as young people. Shakespeare, either in Justice Shallow in Henry IV part 1 or the Seven Ages of Man speech in As You Like It talks about an elderly man wearing the hose he wore as a young man (having been too fat for them in the meantime). Therefore people could be wearing garments up to 40 or 50 years out of date. This would mainly be older people, in rural areas and applying mainly to outer garments - jackets, doublets etc. There is a third trend, depending on social class. People earned cloth as part of their wages, when in employment, so the colour of the clothes (made up by the local tailor) would not be determined by them. Layers for Women Shift (like a shirt only longer) Gathered to wrist and neck with ties to fit (not on drawstring in 16th, seems to come in in 17th). Sleeves sewn in, rolled up if needed. Nothing underneath (unless a psw) Bodice Boned! To waist at back, long point at centre front (length varies). Laced up at the front in the early 1600s (rural working class) and you don't need a corset, the bodice is boned. May have sewn in sleeves, or laced in sleeves. Bumroll padded roll tied round hips to give shape, holds skirts out. Can be sown to a petticoat if it tends to drift. Shown worn even when working in fields, not just church. Petticoates - probably a couple, I don't think more are needed - bumroll does the job. Hose - knitted or woven (old fashioned). Gartered at knee. Skirt (wool) Next layer depends on social class/wealth etc. Could be jacket (loose fitting, down to hips) or gown - more fitted. I don't know when cloaks come in for women, but not early in this period. Belt over top. Coif on head, shape varies, but linen - cotton and lace are very expensive. Hat on head - difficult to describe shape - rather like a large brimmed bowler - often seen on tombs. Layers on men Shirt - see shift but shorter, to hips. May have worn braes underneath (close-fitting top of hips to waist, gathered at waist. Jerkin and/or doublet (jerkin is sleeveless and more informal. Doublet in 1600's may well have peascod belly - not even particularly fashionable, just 'normal') Gown on top for formal wear. Again depends on wealth/social class. Hose beneath - boy, does this garment change shape. Slops are probably the easiest for working men - fairly loose, waistbands beginning to come in, belted, don't forget the codflap!. Netherhose beneath - like womens hose, knitted coming in, woven going out. Hats - crowns are rising at the end of the 16th century, but still only about 4 to 6 inches - Janet Arnold is very good on these in Patterns of Fashion. The pointed hats are 1640s onwards in England, I don't know about New England, I think they are a Dutch fashion, although there are some debatable woodcuts from the Civil War period. Collars are more properly called falling bands and come in at the end of the 16th/early 17th century as an easy version of the ruff - sometimes worn with the ruff (underneath). Good cuffs need to go with them. Leather gloves, yes. I understand there is little evidence for knitting in the late 16th early 17th century England. All men had to own a white knitted hat (like a coif) from mid-Henry VIII, and there is the famous example of Elizabeth I's knitted silk stockings, but I've seen precious little other evidence. Shawls also don't seem to be used. Early in the 16th century there are pinners - pieces of cloth pinned around the shoulders, but not shawls. A practical piece of advice. If you are looking at making a costume (or describing one) decide exactly who and what you are thinking of, not just in general terms. Clothes varied quite a lot, as I mention above, and it is much easier to say, OK, my character is, say, a 45 year old yeoman farmer making X amount a year, not interested in clothes but wants to look respectable, etc etc, than to try and represent a class of person A subsequent Question occurred to me. When did Black become associated with Puritans? In my period wearing black is a bold statement of wealth (not only was it the most expensive dye, it also rotted the fabric). This seems to connect to the Calvinist view of the virtuous being rewarded in this world as well as the next! Yours in haste Caroline ---------------------------- From: FrequenC@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 14:48:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for period weaponry. Greetings, programs! I am involved with a small group in Cincinnati that is interested in staging historic re-creations of significant turning points in history, specifically on the battlefield. We are having trouble tracking down sturdy weaponry that will take the punishment, but still look authentic. Please e-mail me any addresses or company information that could help us. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. ---------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 02:05:43 -0500 Subject: Re: 1590s dressing This quote from Caroline's post: "Shift (like a shirt only longer) Gathered to wrist and neck with ties to fit (not on drawstring in 16th, seems to come in in 17th). Sleeves sewn in, rolled up if needed. Nothing underneath (unless a psw)" has me confused...what's a psw? Thanks, NeenH (I'm finally on this list and my husband, AbeFisher is off...) ---------------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 15:45:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 1590s dressing On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 NeenH@aol.com wrote: > This quote from Caroline's post: > "Shift (like a shirt only longer) Gathered to wrist and neck with ties to > fit (not on drawstring in 16th, seems to come in in 17th). Sleeves sewn in, > rolled up if needed. Nothing underneath (unless a psw)" > has me confused...what's a psw? What was used as a shift before this time? Chantal cpecourt@mhv.net ---------------------------- End of Volume 184 -----------------------