From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:00:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 187, 11/21/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 187, November 21, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Opera costumes Kilts Question and answer:French women's costume for sea voyage in 1590s Question and answers: Unisex children's clothing in period "Diaper" in The Midwife's Tale ISO References for Elizabethan glovemaking Recyling clothes in the 1700s Shawfs/Slings for carrying children in period ISO Historical costuming patterns ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:48:21 -0800 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Corp.Sun.COM (Alexandra R. Ohlson) Subject: operatic costuming I know there's been some discussion on this before... 1) someone mentioned earlier a display of San Francisco opera costumes a an SF hotel (the Mark?). Is that gone? I have a friend who'd like to see it. 2) This same friend is a *real* opera buff. She's noted a trend for costumes for a given production to be lent out (or rented out) all over the world for the same opera. Her question was how these costumes could possible be modified from the stout older singer to a younger, slim or petite singer. One person at the Met said the alterations are just made in the seam, but some of these costumes are very beaded, etc... is it really possible or worth it to alter so drastically. I would think that would destroy the costume. Thanks, alexandra ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:45:55 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Opera Costume A year or so ago, I was lucky enough to get on a costume shop tour of "Phantom of the Opera" & someone asked a similar question. For that show, they made the waists of the womens bustle skirts VERY adjustable, & made several identical bodices to fit each singer, plus her understudy. If a role went through several singers in the original production, there may have been 4-5 differently sized bodices by the time it went on the road or to rental. Alison ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:18:05 -0600 (CST) From: JENNIFER CARLSON Subject: Kilts (again) My husband asked me to inquire if anyone has any documentation for what the Scottish kilt looked like during the 1500s. He can make modern kilts, but those won't work for Elizabethan costume. He doesn't care for the earlier "great kilt", and is certain there must have been some alternative form, something that was transitional between the great kilt and the modern. Thanks in advance, Jennifer Carlson JLC@vax2.utulsa.edu Who is wondering how one of those baby sling thingies would work for a purse/ shopping bag sort of arrangement at SCA events and Highland Games. ---------------------------- From: minerva.houghton@ambassador.com (Minerva Houghton) Subject: costume request Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:20:20 GMT Could you please send me a picture of a costume that might have been worn by a young French woman about to embark on a long sea voyage in 1542? My mailing address is: M.P. Johnston-Houghton Butler's Creek Farm, R.R. #4, Grand Valley, Ont. L0N 1G0 Thank you M. Johnston-Houghton ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:10:00 +0900 From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRAX0BFRCEhMm07UhsoSg==?= Subject: HISTORIC COSTUME Hello! I'm a member of CSA and an associate proffesor of Mukogawa Women's University in Japan. I'm researching historic costume especially that of Children's clothes and of America from 17 th century to 19th century. My particular concerns are as follows. What kind of clothings did Quakers, who emmigrated to Pennsylvania, wear? Why did boys and girls in Victorian era wear same kind of dresses or pantalets? Namely, I would like to know the causes of the children's unisexual clothings in this era. I would like to get informations about books, dissertations and photographs on above theses. I look foward to receive useful informations and advices. And I'll appreciate you for your kindness. ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 10:47:03 PST From: "cynthia" To: aol.com!NeenH@netcom.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re:Ballard questions >>I second the recommendation! One of the nicest bits of >>research AND presentation around. The town dealing >>(and not dealing) with the rape trial is also >>fascinating. >If this was in Martha Ballard's book, I must have missed it entirely, or >not understood it, there was plenty I didn't understand. Chapter 3 entitled: October 1789 "Mrs Foster has sworn a Rape on a number of men" >I have been wondering >what they were weaving as "diaper". Was it for what WE call diapers, or >was it a twill (or bird'seye) fabric for something else, or what? >From Doreen Yarwood's _Encyclopedia of World Costume_ (paraphrased) diaper: from Byzantine Greek (transliterated and ASCII-fied here as"diaspros") meaning alternating light and dark 1) a linen or cotton woven in diamond pattern 2) any diamond pattern 3) since about 1600 children's breechclouts, or toweling --cin ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:54 PST From: Cynthia Becht Subject: diaper >>>>>>>> From Doreen Yarwood's _Encyclopedia of World Costume_ (paraphrased) diaper: from Byzantine Greek (transliterated and ASCII-fied here as "diaspros") meaning alternating light and dark 1) a linen or cotton woven in diamond pattern 2) any diamond pattern 3) since about 1600 children's breechclouts, or toweling >>>>>>>> Yes, this is how I think of it, too. In rare book cataloging, we sometimes describe the Victorian cloth bindings as specifically as possible. To that end, G. Thomas Tanselle published a terrific article entitled "The bibliographical description of patterns" in Studies in bibliography, vol. xxiii 1970. He has photographs of a number of binding fabrics with their names. The photos of diaper are just as Cin defined above. The diamond has been halved horizontally in Tanselle's example so that the top half is dark and the lower light, resembling more like pyramids with mirror images than plain diamonds. This is just one of many possible diaper variations. Cynthia Becht UCLA ---------------------------- From: PYLE@MUVMS6.MU.WVNET.EDU Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gloves,Elizabethan I am looking for good documentation on period Elizabethan Glovemaking. Slightly before or after will be helpful also. My goal is to be able to size and make good gloves to match the costumes I've been making. I have seen the book "Love of a Glove" by C. Cody Collins, but have been unable to find any others. I have also been looking at portraits, but I would really like a pattern or at least good instructions to do both men's and women's. Cavalier gloves would also be helpful. Thank you all... Robin Pyle (SCA Lady Ciaran Redmane) ---------------------------- From: SpydreC@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:07:30 -0500 To: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Kilts (again) Greetings and info on Kilts, A 16th century Scottish great Kilt does not need to be made. A great kilt is 7 to 9 yards of 60" wide wool. The key to a great kilt is the folding and wrapping of it as you put it on. It is really nothing more than a blanket/drape that is used as clothing. You have to remember that the early scots were very thrifty. Why make a specific set of clothes when you can just fold something you already have to use that. If you are interested in the exact method of folding and wrapping I can probably put you in touch with a recreationist who can fold his Kilt in his sleep. He could probaby give you the how to by email with out a problem. Hopr this helps :}{: ---------------------------- From: SpydreC@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: costume request Greeting, I am a 16th nautical buff and as such will answer this from a different angle. For the most part in the 16th century women did not go on sea voyages. At this time great superstition surrounded this issue. Women on a ship were considered deadly luck. Most likely do to the fact that all ships were female as was the sea and both were very jealous mistress's. Short voyages from England to the Continent or across the Mediteranian were barely acceptable. Only Spain and Portugal had any major colonies in the new world and these had few if any women at all. France was a very small factor in the sea empires of the time, and as such french women most probably did not travel by sea (the only exception would be ambassadorial trips to England, Ireland, Scotland. When women did travel they would wear clothing befiting their station and stay in the Cabins or below deck at all times. Hope this helps. :}{: ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:03:06 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: 17th century dressing Tracy's questions, via Mrs. Yeldham's reply: >... Secondly clothes wore very well, much better than we >expect them to today. People inherited clothes, and could well be >expected to still have clothes they wore as young people. >....Therefore people could be wearing garments up to 40 or 50 years out of >date. This would mainly be older people, in rural areas and applying >mainly to outer garments - jackets, doublets etc. My time-period-of-research is the 1700's, but surely frugality didn't just begin in the 1700's. Many of the writings about museum garments mention that old lines of stitching are visible, where the garment (an outer gown, not undergarments) has been "un-picked" and resewn with the seamlines currently in fashion. Gowns with many fitting seams throughout the bodice possibly weren't cut at the seams, but merely folded (darted), so that the fabric stayed somewhat in one piece. Or, a jacket will have the newer style cuffs added to it, to update it for the current fashion. So, fixing up or remaking a garment could have extended it's life beyond the initial fashion period. Inherited clothes, or clothes from one's childhood might get this treatment. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 19:26:59 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Galvan Subject: Reboso Wrap I lived in Mexico for a while, and learned to carry my baby sister in a reboso. This particular wrap is good for young infants who need their necks supported, like being snuggly wrapped, and you'd rather have in front of you than behind.... 1. Lay reboso out on a suitable surface -- I used to use the bed. It should be about 24" wide, and about 6' long. Center one end of the reboso in front of you with the remaining material extending off to your right. 2. Place baby over the short end of the reboso so that baby's head is just off the top edge of the reboso, and the reboso's left end lines up with baby's right arm (on your left). 3. Bring remaining material over baby from the right and wrap baby *snuggly* in one full turn, so that fabric once again emerges from under baby and extends off to the right. This time, as the fabric passes under baby, have it under baby's head as well. 4. Pick up baby and cradle in left arm (your right if you are left-handed) so that the excess material is on the opposite side of the baby from you. With right hand, grab all that material and bring it over baby, continue up over your own shoulder and let it hang down your back. 5. Now reach behind yourself with your right hand (leaning a little to your right might make this step easier) and catch hold of the material once again. Continue to draw the material around yourself so that it comes around your right shoulder and arm. 6. Bring the remaining material under baby going from the side opposite you to the side next to you, OVER your left forearm and under the baby. FIRMLY tuck the end of the reboso over the top of the baby and in between its back and where the reboso first leaves the baby and begins to come up over your shoulders. This is sort of hard to describe, but the end result is that the baby should end up with both ends of the reboso under its back so that its weight helps to hold the whole wrap in place. Although no one I know actually feels comfortable completely letting go of the baby with their left arm while using a reboso this way, it actually is possible to do for a brief period of time without the baby slipping. This wrap also screens the baby's face from wind, dust and sun without actually having fabric lying on it, and spreads the weight of the baby evenly across your upper back in a much more comfortable way. It is possible to nurse this way in public without offending the easily-shocked. Let me know if I need to clarify these instructions. It's sort of like trying to tell someone how to tie shoes! :) Liz ---------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 00:47:33 -0500 Subject: kids clothes and sling thanks I am really enjoying reading all about the various slings (no one mentioned the african carrier, which is sling like...I have an americanized version) this is terrific...a sling (modern or otherwise) works pretty well as a shopping bag, for the person who wondered... I couldn't figure out who to reply to about the victorian kids clothes. Isn't it true that children were dressed unisexly as babies because the clothes were made before they were born (just try doing much sewing afterwards!) and passed down from child to child? Unisex is more practical (my 3rd is a boy, we're in the process of acquiring a new wardrobe for him). Dresses are easier for potty training and diaper changing than pants, and if you make them with tucks, can be worn for more than a week before being outgrown! I have no research to back this up, except that I have 3 kids, and this is all practical and logical. NeenH ---------------------------- From: LAFFALOT@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 03:20:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Medieval pattens and Such I'm looking for a source for patterns for historical costumes. I know that they are made, I just don't know where to get them. Thanks in advance for any help, Laffalot@aol.com ---------------------------- From: "Mary Wood" Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:11:59 CST Subject: Re: Kilts (again) > Date forwarded: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:18:19 -0500 (EST) > Forwarded by: Gretchen Miller > Forwarded to: Historical Costume Mailing List > From: SpydreC@aol.com > Date sent: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:07:30 -0500 > To: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: Re: Kilts (again) > Greetings and info on Kilts, > A 16th century Scottish great Kilt does not need to be made. A great kilt is > 7 to 9 yards of 60" wide wool. The key to a great kilt is the folding and > wrapping of it as you put it on. > It is really nothing more than a blanket/drape that is used as clothing. You > have to remember that the early scots were very thrifty. Why make a specific > set of clothes when you can just fold something you already have to use that. > > If you are interested in the exact method of folding and wrapping I can > probably put you in touch with a recreationist who can fold his Kilt in his > sleep. > He could probaby give you the how to by email with out a problem. > > Hopr this helps > :}{: A very good illustration of the process of putting on a great kilt appears in Christian Heskith's book "Tartans". I used this when I wore one years ago and it worked well. Mary Mary Wood MPW@gml.lib.uwm.edu ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:14:44 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Kilts (again) On Thu, 17 Nov 1994 SpydreC@aol.com wrote: > Greetings and info on Kilts, > A 16th century Scottish great Kilt does not need to be made. A great kilt is > 7 to 9 yards of 60" wide wool. The key to a great kilt is the folding and > wrapping of it as you put it on. > It is really nothing more than a blanket/drape that is used as clothing. You > have to remember that the early scots were very thrifty. Why make a specific > set of clothes when you can just fold something you already have to use that. There were other smaller versions of the kilt at least from the 14th C. on. There is a corbel carving that a friend of mine saw that dated 15th C. that shows a short kilt that is just a pleated skirt. It is worn by someone working, which makes sense if one is using sharp objects or doing fine work. Its also in a book which this friend found the other day at the reference library at FIT, but I didn't get the bibliographic info. If there is a demand for it, I'll look next time I'm there. > He could probaby give you the how to by email with out a problem. This sounds like the sightless getting the novice tied up in knots- kinda a funny picture...;*) -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: operatic costuming Hi, Old opera costumes I've come across were usually flat-lined with a sturdy cotton or muslin, and had generous seam allowances, they were also constructed with the sleave sewn on flat, then the sleave and side-seam sewn in one operation, so that the garment could be taken in or let out without removing the sleave. Beading and embroidery was removable for alteration and cleaning purposes. The contemporary companies I've worked for still use these techniques, although sometimes no amount of alteration can transform a small costume in a large one, or versa-visa. Many Opera costumes still make the circut, because they are so expensive to build. I designed a production of "The Merry Wives of Windsor" when I was in grad school and used costumes from the Sante Fe Opera Co, the Arena Stage, the Old Globe Theatre as well as every regional company in New England that would lend or rent us costumes. With ever-shrinking costume budgets, costumes are again touring the country. KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ---------------------------- From: bwchar@mail.wm.edu (Brett Charbeneau) Date: 18 Nov 94 10:38:38 Subject: Used 18th Cent Clothing In response to Bryan Howard's question about used clothing: >Also, there was a comment on the used clothing business. In Europe >this was certainly thriving in the 18th century, as in some parts of >the U.S., but I have come across references from Williamsburg stores >which state they had to return used clothes sent to Virginia from >England because no one in Virginia would buy them. (circa 1770- 1774). Do you happen to have the citation for this Williamsburg account handy? At first I find even the thought of shipping used clothes across the Atlantic rather amazing, but I suppose the market for 'slave's clothing' (as it was then called) in Virginia could have precipitated this kind of importation. >Along this line, does anyone have references on how long a person of >the lower sort (servant mostly) would commonly try to salvage their >clothing? What I'm getting at is how likely is it that a servant in >1774 would be wearing clothes more than 5 or 10 years old? I remained blissfully ignorant of the existence of any used clothing trade on the continent until this posting (and would appreciate any references to it) and therefore feel unqualified to offer a complete answer to this question. I would, however, like to offer a reason as to why I think this relatively unlikely in the American Colonies. By the time of the Revolution the paper mills extant in the colonies numbered over 100. (Remember: *no* wood pulp paper until the 1840's. Rags are your raw material.) In the 1740's here in Williamsburg the _Virginia Gazette_ and locally-printed Almanacs were littered with incessant advertisements offering tidy sums of money for worn non-wool textiles: one pence a pound for coarse colored rags and 3 or more pence a pound for the finer white varieties. This offering would help defray, even slightly, the costs of purchasing newer clothing. The Williamsburg mill evidently failed by the 1750's as no further mention of it can be found, and by 1752 Benjamin Franklin, its major investor, had written it off as a loss. One of the theories behind this failure (along with contaminated water which produced stained paper and a tiny population which yielded small amounts of rags) is the suggestion that the high percentage of African and African-Americans living in the area (over 50% in Williamsburg) were likely to repair and hang on to worn garments longer than their white counterparts, thereby weakening an already-small source of supply. In fact, the shortage of rags proved to be a problem from the very beginning forcing Franklin to collect rags in Philadelphia, then the biggest city on the continent, and ship them to the Williamsburg mill. While certainly this cash-for-old-clothes market did not insure that every white citizen wore exclusively new materials, it is worth considering with respect to this question. Especially since by 1774 the colonies' assemblies formed many Associations which made clear their increasing awareness that preparations for a possible war with England needed to be made. The production of domestic rag paper guaranteed the availability of cartridge paper for small arms which is absolutely crucial to infantry warfare of the period. Brett Charbeneau, Journeyman Printer P.O. Box 1776-MHW Williamsburg Imprints Program Williamsburg, VA 23187 Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Tel: (804) 229-1000 INTERNET: bwchar@mail.wm.edu FAX: (804) 221-8948 ---------------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Children's clothing Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:49:11 -0500 (EST) Although not specifically about clothing, there is a beautiful book on British and American children's culture entitled, Yesterday's Children: The Antiques and History of Childcare by Sally Kevill-Davies. 1994. 316 pages, heavily illustrated. Paperback edition $39.95 (ISBN 1-85149-184-8) Antique Collectors' Club This shows paintings and artifacts of teething devices, rattles, clothes, nursing equipment, everything you can think of that deals with early childhood from medieval to early 20th century. Lushly illustrated. Gives some explanations of clothing styles, shows some christaning costumes, etc. -- Marsha Hamilton ph: (614) 292-6314 Head, Monograph Acquisition Division fax:(614) 292-2015 The Ohio State University Libraries e-mail: hamilton.8@osu.edu 1858 Neil Avenue Mall Columbus, OH 43210-1286 USA ---------------------------- From: Chethur@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Kilts (again) An excellent scholarly article on kilts, and scottish plaids is in: Eric Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger. The Invention of Tradition.(Cambridge U P. 1983) The article is: "The Invention of Tradition: The Highland Tradition of Scotland." by Hugh Trevor-Roper this raises questions about the age and origins of plaids, and some questions about the extent of the early use of kilts. Basically he puts much of it in the late 18th & early 19th century, and challenges assumptions about how traditional they really are. Excellent provocative article. Cheryl Thurber, Union Univ. chethur@aol.com ---------------------------- End of Volume 187 -----------------------