From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:29:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 188, 11/22/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 188, November 22, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: The wedding dress in Copolla's Dracula Glovemaking in Elizabethan times Unisex children's clothing in period Order of dressing thanks Questions and answerson achieving the complete 1860's look PSW Used clothing in the 18th and 19th C (New)English rural costume before 1640 Construction on shifts, drawers, and corsets in 1590 ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 09:17:58 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Klimt dracula I just saw Bill Jones message of Nov. 4 re: the Dracula costumes that he had seen first hand and his wish to se the Klimt (Klimpt?) inspired gown/robe. When the Dracula picturebook came out around the time of the movie, I'm sure I read in there that the robe in question had not survived the stress of movie making and was pretty much destroyed in the death scene. It was a very fragile work of art, hand-painted silk-tissue I believe, with reall gold leaf hand- applied, and various embellishments. All told, about $20,000 for that one costume. Anyway that's my recollection. I don't have the book myself. Can anyone else confirm or correct this? bye Susan Fatemi ---------------------------- Subject: gloves Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:58:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Jennifer L Rushman" > > A pretty good book I've found for glove information is: > > Cumming, Valerie. "Gloves" London: Batsford Pub. 1982. > > I've never made a pair of gloves for scratch, but I believe there were > > patterns used for cutting in the book. There were also some really nice > > examples. > > There is also a couple of pictures of gloves in "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe > > Unlocked" by Janet Arnold (of course). > > Hope this helps... > > Jennifer Rushman > > SCA-Clare Hele Middle Kingdom, Barony of Northwoods > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 10:47:59 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: 2nd half of 19th c. kids >Women's University in Japan. I'm researching historic costume, >especially that of Children's clothes and of America from >17th century to 19th century. My particular concerns are as follows. > >Why did boys and girls in Victorian era wear same kind of >dresses or pantalets? Namely, I would like to know the causes >of the children's unisexual clothings in this era. >I would like to get informations about books, dissertations >and photographs on above theses. > >I look foward to receive useful informations and advices. >And I'll appreciate you for your kindness. Welcome! As you can probably tell, we're just a chat group of various people, about 300 last I heard, all with an interest in fashion and with various levels of experience & training. You are right about the babes in arms, they are compleatly undistinguishable in their baby gowns. One other item that both sexes seem to share is the baby necklace, usually of pearl or red coral beads. >From my personal photo collection (19th century -- none before 1850), I find that while the children from age 1 to 5 are in dresses, it's clear which are boys and which are girls. The toys they carry are different. Girls often have pierced ears. Girls have hair parted in the center, often with big curls or ribbons. Boys have hair parted on the extreme side. This mirrors adult hair styles. Some small boys are shown w/ a pet dog. Both sexes wear pantlets. The girls' are w/lace, eyelet or ribbon and I have none that are bare-legged. In warm months the boys are sometimes bare legged and/or in short sleeves, in cooler months the boys' pantlets are trimmed w/ soutache or flat braid. Why dresses? I dont know, but I suspect it's because at that age kids grow so fast that for a woman make something that can be worn by the next child conserves family resources. --cin cin@caere.com ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:03:25 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Klimt Dracula I seem to recall the same comment about the Klimt robe being destroyed during filming & it was so expensive to build the one that they couldn't afford a backup version & had to keep repairing the one robe. The comment doesn't seem to be in the Eiko book or "Bram Stokers Dracula, the Film and the Legend" which contains the screenplay & background info, as well as lots of costume shots. It might have been in one of the many articles that came out in fashion magazines just before the film was released. I have to admit, I liked a lot of the Dracula costumes, not as accurate reproductions, but for carrying the Gothic mood they were aiming for. Alison ---------------------------- From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Victorian children's clothing Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:45:10 -0500 (EST) I have gleaned from novels of the period that changes in dress marked important changes in status for Victorian children. The significant changes were: "shortening the skirts": moving from long, flowing infant gowns to a short dress the infant could crawl in -- sometime in the first year, probably around 6 months or so. (boys only) moving from skirts to trousers -- I have seen some arguments that this was done at toilet-training, but since there are pictures of four- and five-year-old boys in dresses, this seems unlikely; anybody got a better guess? The next two begin in the late Victorian period. (boys only) "long pants": the boy stops wearing knickerbockers and begins to wear long pants. This persists well into the 1960s for upper-class Americans, who consider it unsuitable for formally-dressed little boys to wear anything but shorts. See the pictures of the Kennedy children at Kennedy's funeral. Anyway, "long pants" is seen as the first major step toward adulthood, and happens around thirteen or so. (girls only) "letting her skirts down and putting her hair up" Late 'teens: signifies that a girl is old enough to be courted. Short skirts (i.e. above the foot) are a sign of immaturity, as is hair down the back. Has anybody out there corrections or additions? Betsy Perry ---------------------------- From: Tracy023@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:58:33 -0500 Subject: Re: RE: 17th century dressing To all of you who have given me help with 17th C dressing, thank you. I've gotten some excellent information and leads to more. You're a great group. If anything turns up in my further research that seems of benefit to wider interests, I'll be sure to pass it along. Again, thank you very much [and, since I'll be working on this for a few more months, if anything else occurs to anyone, I remain interested.] Tracy ---------------------------- From: radueche@ct.med.ge.com (Renee Raduechel) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:46:06 CST Subject: 1860's costume questions (long) I'd better make this fast. I can hear sirens, the men in the white coats are coming...I've decided that I don't want to _borrow_ or _rent_ a dress for the annual Civil War ball even one more year. I've also decided that I'd like to outfit myself from top to toe. My intent is to be as accurate as possible, but to recognize when I intentionally deviate from strict accuracy. Did I mention I've never sewn anything (okay, a pillow in junior high, quilt squares, and the occasional button) in my life? My name is Renee Raduechel, and I just resubscribed to H-COSTUME after a hiatus of a couple of months. I work as a costumed interpreter (most of the time I'm in a bustle dress) at a living history museum. Aside from planning for the ball (November 4, 1995), I want to start making my own clothes (I don't like being at the mercy of stores) and use elements of historic costume in them. I must be a jacket-&-skirt type person, because the styles I'm most drawn to are the Zouave and Spanish jackets of the 1860's, and the walking suits of the 1890's. In fact, rather than a regular ballgown (I don't want a putrid sore throat), I plan to wear a Zouave jacket and skirt, with a Garibaldi shirt and either a vest or a Medici belt to next year's dance. I know what type of costume I want to make, but I need to do research to get the details correct. I looked around when I was at the ball on Nov. 5th, and I know what I didn't like: most of the dresses had very little trim on them, what variety existed was achieved through the choice of fabric; few of the women were wearing/carrying accessories; and green and red were _very_ heavily represented in the women's costumes, unfortunate, since I like green. I'll be doing a lot of research on costume/accessories/needlework, and have already begun raiding the local libraries and bookstores, but I also thought I would put my questions before you to see if you have any suggestions for texts or articles which answer them, or if you have any hints/tips yourself. My questions so far: Q1 What colors and fabrics are appropriate for the time period and the type of costume I'm planning? What types of trim were used? Q2 For embroidery, what stitches, colors, and threads were used? How large should images embroidered on clothing be? What should the reverse side of the dress look like? Will I need to cover the threads with a lining or something? Q3 For beadwork, what types and colors of beads are accurate? Are bead knitting, crocheting, weaving, and embroidery all appropriate? Which of these would be easiest to do and to repair? Q4 Are there modern and period beginners' instruction manuals around? Patterns for needlework used to decorate clothing at the time? Q5 Do any companies make reprints of issues of Peterson's, Godey's, or Frank Leslie's Gazette? Any European magazines being reprinted? Q6 What cultures influenced American/English/French costume at that point? I've seen the photos of Princess Alexandra's Greek motif dress. What about Egypt? China? India? Is it too early for dress to show the influences of the aesthetic movement, medievalism, gothicism, the Celtic knotwork of the Irish Arts & Crafts movement? Q7 Which museums have good collections of clothing from the time period (1850-1865)? Examples of Zouave costume? Examples of beadwork and embroidery? Aside from textile curators at these museums, would it be worth my while to try to contact someone from a Costume Society or from the Embroiderer's Guild? Are there any exhibit catalogs out there with good illustrations of evening dress of the time? Q8 Are there books which illustrate the hairstyles and headpieces of the time, including how to achieve the look? Q9 Are there companies which sell the sticks for making fans, and do such instruction manuals exist? Q10 How elaborately would the chemise, corset, corset cover, drawers, petticoats, hoop, stockings, and garters be decorated? Did stockings ever match the dress in terms of color or embroidery? Q11 Would block printing or painting the fabric be acceptable, if I can't find a source for material I like? Any good texts/manuals on this? Books I've bought or have checked out to me already: TRUMAN, Historic Costuming; BUCKNELL, The Evolution of Fashion 1066-1930; TORTORA, Survey of Historic Costume; BRADFIELD, Costume in Detail 1730-1930; LAVER, Costume & Fashion; WORRELL, American Costume 1840-1920; YORK, Civil War Ladies' Sketchbook, vols. 1-3; MCCLELLAN, History of American Costume 1607-1870; EWING, Everyday Dress 1650-1900; GINSBURG, Victorian Dress in Photographs; and a book by HUNNISETT. I'm also looking for the Janet Arnold Patterns of Fashion book, and want to get Stella Blum's book of plates from Godey's and Fran Grimble's After a Fashion. Others? For surface design: BRENNAND, Victorian Canvaswork; HARBESON, American Needlework; VINCENT, The Ladies' Work Table: domestic needlework in nineteenth century America; THOMAS, Mary Thomas' Knitting Book; WHITE, How to do Bead Work; EMBROIDERER'S GUILD, Treasures from the Embroiderer's Guild Collection; and the May/June '94 issue of Piecework, for the article on Civil War era purses. Others? I'm giving myself until the end of January to do the research and plan the outfit. Hopefully, by then I will have also won the lottery. :^) If you have any suggestions for the definitive resource for Zouave costume or for surface design 1860's style, or for that matter a source answering any of the questions above, I'll be pathetically grateful to hear them. Thanks for any help or commiseration you can provide to me, and thanks to those who simply waded through this lengthy post. Renee Raduechel radueche@ct.med.ge.com p.s. -- I read H-COSTUME digest, and just received vol. 182 with messages from 11/3 to 11/7. Am I behind, or is that what everyone who's on the digest option is up to? Is this list "quiet" enough that I can switch to regular mail? ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:19:17 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: psw Did I miss something? Caroline wrote: "Nothing underneath (unless a psw)" and someone else wrote "what's a psw?" What was the answer? susanf ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:12:40 -0800 From: CJ Smith Subject: psw "Professional sex worker", I think. --CJ ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 20:29:28 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Colonial clothing; Victorian clothing About the discussion of secondhand clothes on the Colonial market--I did a quick reread of Diana de Marly's _Dress in North America: The New World 1492-1800_. This is an excellent book that discusses dress in Colonial America and Canada. It differentiates between various groups, including Indians, Puritans (a good source for the people who have been asking about them), and settlers of various nationalities. The main points are that cloth and clothing were scarce during this period and were largely imported from England. Unfortunately de Marly refers to secondhand clothes from time to time, but when she gives details does not attempt to distinguish between ready-made and secondhand. The lists of clothing shipped most often refer to hats, shoes, stockings, shirts, and other items that would likely be ready-made. She does mention a group of colonists who arrived in 1621; they were very badly prepared and the ship's captain sold them some suits he had on board, bought in the secondhand market in London. Presumably the captain had purposely bought them to sell to colonists. De Marly emphasizes that the Colonial Americans were a "tied market." They felt the English goods shipped to them were of inferior quality and overpriced. Although this does not mean the shipments necessarily included secondhand clothes, it does indicate that to a certain extent the colonists had to put up with what was shipped whether or not they were happy with it. About the comments on remaking used clothing--the idea that one should get as much value as possible out of cloth, whether new or used, persisted well into the Victorian period. Victorian sewing manuals were concerned with economic cloth use, and fashion magazines gave suggestions for remodeling outmoded garments. Although used garments were handed down to less affluent people, these publications were aimed at middle-class women making or altering for themselves and their families. I've just been looking at remodeling suggestions in mid-century _Godey's_ and _Peterson's_ magazines. They recommend that old garments be unpicked and used as cloth, rather than trying to reuse old seams. (A view I concur with, should anybody be thinking of remodeling a costume or using a thrift-shop wedding dress to make one.) Worn and stained areas were cut off, or if not too bad, placed where they'd be covered by another part of the garment. The skirt provided the largest amount of usable cloth; this is also true of 18th-century dresses. However, the general pattern of reuse was that you ended up with less usable cloth than when you first made the garment. This meant you had to (a) make a garment that used less cloth (for yourself or a child), or (b) make the new garment from fabrics taken from two or more used ones. About Renee's project of making a Civil War ball gown outfit--this is certainly doable in a year. I don't recommend using a Zouave jacket outfit for an evening gown--this is definitely day wear. However, you can have the best of both worlds. Bodices and skirts were often separate in this period, and women often had a day and an evening bodice made to match a single skirt. This is very little more trouble than making one bodice. However, for this scheme to work the skirt can't be too frilly. During the 1860s bold applied surface designs were popular, and can work for both day and evening. Don't worry about being cold in a low-necked gown. Outside the bodice will be covered by a wrap, and inside, dancing, you'll be quite warm. To be honest, my book has answers to a lot of the specific questions you asked and I don't feel like reentering the information. Good luck. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 16:31:29 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: 17th C Eng. and N. Amer. On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 Tracy023@aol.com wrote: > Hello, > I'm new here but have been reading the messages for several weeks. I'm > seeking help on the details of clothing worn in rural England from about 1600 > to 1640 and in New England from roughly 1630 to 1700. I've gotten some > information from books but it is vague. I also would like to second the recommendation by Allen Terry of the book on American dress. I used it earlier this year for some research on dress at Plimouth settlement. Also, as far as American Puritan dress is concerned, I recommend the diaries of William Bradford. The better edition is the one edited by Morrison, and its ISBN # is 0-394-43895-7. > I've followed the thread on order of dressing in the 1590s with great > interest, the problem being that I'm not dealing with royalty. I do know that The "A Visual History of Costume" book on the 16th century has a wonderful diversity of class and location depicted. There is also a version on the 17th century which would probably help you. The 16th century reference is "Ashelford, Jane: _A Visual History of Costume - The Sixteenth Century_, c. 1983 Drama Books Publishers, NY and B. T. Batsford LTD, London." I don't own the 17th C. one, but I have used it to research this period, and definitely recommend it. Interesting to note about rural and lower class dress. The time lag seems to be as much as 40 years in many cases in England. Tomb brasses in particular tell this story. For ceremonial dresses, such as mantles and surcoats, this lag is much longer. However, at the beginning of the 17th C., with the death of Elizabeth, a major change of shape occurs in fashionable dress. This means that old clothes would have been more diffidcult to remake for this newer style, so that more would have probably been sold or given to retainers at this point (and in better shape, since its sole reason for having been gotten rid of would have been fashion, not wear). However, it is also reasonable that any new clothes, however humble, that servants or townspeople would have made would have echoed the more fashionable new higher waist lines. I believer that the above mentioned book on the 17th c. dress has a really good engraving of a young woman at market that gives a good idea of the direction of lower class fashion in the 1630-40's. > cost and available colors. Even at the height of Puritanism, I gather, red, > gray and blue were the primary colors of everyday womens skirts. Black, for > men and women, was expensive and saved for Sunday, except if you were very Reds tended, on the cheaper side to be madder based colors that faded to pumpkin-y sorts of deep oranges. Even today, red and black colorfast dyes have not been invented - ever notice how your favorite black skirt fades in the wash? And what happens when you get that red sock n the load of white underwear? Puritan dress was a revolt against the extremes of ornament and the fabulous amounts of money the upperclasses were spending on the lace ornament of their clothing.(ask KC Kosminski about this). Color was not the problem. Excess was. Another interesting thing about the Puritans I discovered was that most of them came from the English Upperclasses. These were not poor or wretched people, at least to start with. They were not so much Haitia boat people as, say, the American intellectuals of the 20's and 30's who espoused Communism and Socialism, and were able to make a deal to found a state of their own when they were blacklisted. (This is a particlarly American metaphor. I hope I haven't offended anyone) Just a few Thanksgiving week thoughts. Happy holiday, everyone! Beth McMahon ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 16:40:09 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: 1590s dressing On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 NeenH@aol.com wrote: > This quote from Caroline's post: > "Shift (like a shirt only longer) Gathered to wrist and neck with ties to > fit (not on drawstring in 16th, seems to come in in 17th). Sleeves sewn in, There are lots of examples of 16th century shirting and smocks that have drawstring necks and wrists. Starts in 15th century Italy and spreads when the fashion for visible underwear moves into the mainstream, early 16th c. You want books, and pictures, I'll give them , but this is really a sidetrack to this post, so I'll get on with clearing my "desk". Sorry, smocks are a special love with me.:*) -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 16:47:36 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Re 1590's Dressing On 14 Nov 1994, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > think!). anyway, this is back to an old line, the only evidence we have > for women wearing knickers in the 16th century is Venetian courtesans. Someone answered this one already, with the same reference sources I would have, for which I am grateful! I just wanted to mention that there does seem to have been a fashion in parts of Spain and Italy for drawers (and I've collected pictures of some of these things, including a beautifully embroidered pair of these from the Metropolitan Museum of ARt here in NYC) from the early 16th c into the 17th. When I checked in with my favorite costuming mavens, we all agreed that we could only find warm weather references to this fashion. This led us to assume that they were fashionable more for their ability to reduce chafing between the legs in sticky weather (which anything over 65 F can be, if you are wearing three layers of linen and silk) than for any extra warmth they might have added in more Northern parts of the world. Has anyone found any reference to them in a cooler climate, such as Flanders, France, or England? Beth ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 17:45:02 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Order of dressing in the 1590's On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Deb wrote: > - How much more flexibility does a WHALEBONE corset have, over > our poor substitute of steel today? I've heard that whalebone > bends more, and that the heat of one's body will shape the stays > to match one's own figure (more so than steel stays). Thanks to my friend KC Kozminski, who had a piece of whalebone lying around from an early 20th c. girdle, I can tell you that the spring steel bones most theatre and corset shops sell for use in corsets are actually less flexible than real whalebone. But note, if you will, that most 16th c. corsets were worn with a removable busk that went down the center front. This was made of some more rigid stuff, like ivory, wood, or metal, and was frequently heavily decorated. The Metropolitan Museum of Art recently had, as part of a side exhibit to the "Waist Not" exhibit shown recently, a case of busks dating from the late 16th through the early 19th (?) c. Some were really quite lovely, and had carving depicting stories on them, or decorative designs and the like. They all had two holes near the top so they could be tied in place and not shift. The currently available stuff that best imitates whalebone is commercially known as Rigiline, and is sold in America in most fabric and notions stores. Its a little sturdier than featherboning, and is essentially plastic fibres in a woven plastic structure. Unlike whalebone, you can sew through it, and its washable. It works nicely in corsets *IF* you use something like the solid spring steel for the center pieces (for about the width of a busk, say about 2 inches). Also like whalebone, it does bend with the warmth of your body, and especially if you use it without any metal down the center of a bodicce, you will eventually get a crease under your bustline. For this reason, I usually use just the spring steel when clothing women larger than a D cup bustwise. Hmm. Perhaps this is why the Pfalzgrafin's corset (c. 1597) in _Patterns of Fashion_ isn't boned over the breasts. The cut of the corset would have provided enough support, if fit well, and not putting boning over the bust would have obviated the bend-underneath-with-wear problem. Any comments? Also, I have recently begun to experiment with the spiral steel boning. It seems to be more resilient than the rigiline, but provide the same sort of support, ie slightly less rigid than the spring steel boning. Anybody else want to share their experiences with different types of boning? It occurs to me that I've written far too much here this weekend! Sorry, folks. I'd let everything that I wanted to answer go til the weekend, and I have the computer to myself since my husband is out of town. I promise I won't have time to do this sort of deluge again til mid December! :*) -*-*- Beth, on her own in costuming flights of fancy this weekend..... ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 18:49:40 -0800 (PST) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Re: 1860's costume questions (long) Godey's ladies magazine is available on microbook. At least at my very small college library. I would imagine a larger university library would have it also. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle, Kingdom of An Tir, Barony of Glymm Mere * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * * "I'll think about it tomorrow!" * ***************************************************************** ---------------------------- End of Volume 188 -----------------------