From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:58:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 192, 11/30/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 192, November 30, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Happy birthday h-costume! Recognizing a child's sex in historical unisex clothing "Dressing a Rennaissance Princess" presentation, Los Angeles Zipper and button flies in England and America Fur on Queen Juana's drawers Question and answer: Boning techniques for corsets in 1770 Unisex children's clothing in period Breastfeeding Question and answer: Addresses for period shoe suppliers Annoucement: Sewing Bee starting in Redwood, California --------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 16:50:58 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Happy Birthday to h-costume Just a historical note about this list. This month, November 1994 (November 10th is the start date, I think), the h-costume list is 1 year old! In that time, the list has grown from about 100 members to almost 500 members. So happy birthday h-costume! toodles, gretchen --------------------------- From: GHaramaki@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 16:58:00 -0500 Subject: Victorian Unbreached Boy ID Hello all! According to Pricilla Harris Dalrymple, author of "American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs", the way to tell if the child in the photograph wearing a dress is a boy is to observe where its hair is parted. If it's parted on the side, you are looking at a little boy; if it's parted in the center, you are looking at a little girl. If it's parted on both sides and the center hair is brushed up, or back, into waves or curls, you are looking at a picture of a little boy. (Men wore that style, as well.) Do not be fooled by the presence or absence of curls, off the shoulder necklines, or necklaces. Many parents thought these looked charming on either sex, although Godey's Lady's Book (Vol. 35, 1848), apparently mindful of the high infant mortality rate and lack of central heating, thought wide-necked dresses were a "pernicious fashion...uncomfortable as well as injurious". --Janet Haramaki at GHaramaki --------------------------- From: GHaramaki@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:09:12 -0500 Subject: Getting dressed in the Renaissance In conjunction with "The French Renaissance in Prints from the Bibliotheque Nationale de France" exhibit at the Armand Hammer Museum, Michael Hackett, UCLA professor, Department of Theater, is giving a talk/demonstration on Saturday, December 10th at 2:00 pm entitled "Dressing a Renaissance Princess: Madame Elizabeth of France, Age 7". The costume designer is Roslyn Moore. Entrance to the museum is $4.50, with discounts to students and seniors. There is a discount on the parking fee with a validation stamp from the museum. Armand Hammer Museum of Art and Cultural Center 10899 Wilshire Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90024-4201 Info: (310) 443-7000 Gordon Haramaki --------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 18:58:52 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Slightly Naughty Topics Dear Abby's column in today's _San Francisco Chronicle_ had an interesting reader letter on costume. The writer claimed that during World War II she sent a pair of trousers with a zipper in a "Bundles for Britain" package (clothing Americans sent to help Blitz victims). The recipient sent her a nice thank-you letter in which he said zippered trousers were a novelty in Britain. So he wore them to a party, spent the evening demonstrating the zipper, and was the life of the party. Does this sound true? Or is somebody putting somebody on? I do wonder about that party . . . Someone sent me a message (it may have been private; I lost it; sorry) asking what kind of fur Queen Juana's drawers were lined with. Anderson doesn't say. My correspondent also said it must have been scratchy. What struck my delicate 20th-century sensibilities was what white fur worn in that area would look like in an era of profuse vermin and poor hygiene. Of course, for all I know Juana wore linen drawers underneath. I don't think fur was typical. Anderson says a lot of Spanish noblewomen wore drawers, not just Juana. Fran Grimble --------------------------- From: PYLE@MUVMS6.MU.WVNET.EDU Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 23:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Slightly Naughty Topics In response to Fran Grimble's comment about zippered trousers being a novelty in WWII Britain... When button-fly Levi's were introduced as "new" in the mid-80's, my Dad laughed at me and my high-school friends. He says button-fly jeans were all he had. He was born in 1946, and was wearing jeans about the same time he thought a '57 chevy would put him on top of the world. Mom says she was allowed to wear her brother's "denims" to play in the snow, and those also buttoned. Of course, Levi's have changed little since their debut. I understand that the first major change ocurred when Mr. Strauss had the crotch rivet removed, having discovered what happens to a metal rivet when one crouches close to a campfire for a period of time... Robin Pyle (aka Lady Ciaran Redmane) --------------------------- From: radueche@ct.med.ge.com (Renee Raduechel) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 09:06:46 CST Subject: Zippers (was Slightly Naughty Topics) If you're interested, there was an article in a recent issue of American Heritage of Invention & Technology that discussed the development and patenting of the zipper, as well as when it came into more common use. Here's the info from CARL: AUTHOR(s): Friedel, Robert TITLE(s): The history of the zipper? Summary: Yes -- and it's anything but straightfoward. making a device that was simpse enough to use turned out to be enormously complicated. In: American heritage of invention & technology. Sumr 1994 v 10 n 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Renee Raduechel radueche@ct.med.ge.com p.s. -- I called Dover this morning to ask for their catalog. Anyone know why it would take 3-4 weeks for it to be sent from New York to Wisconsin? I was afraid to ask. --------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:56:06 -0500 Subject: Re: stays Anyone know any similiar boning tricks for late 1770's style stays for large breasted women? NeenH --------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:56:23 -0500 Subject: levi's When I was in college, button fly's came back. I really liked them!!!! I occasionally had to snip a few threads to make the buttons zip open when pulled apart, and be fast and easy to button. They were just as fast, and didn't break like zippers to. NeenH --------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:55:49 -0500 Subject: Re: uptight about nursing >babbott said: >You really should tell those who object to grow up. If >they are doing actual reinactments, more likely breast >fed than not. Sorry, just had to add my two cents... I would love to tell people to "eat a Dove bar, go to Florida, deal with it", as a friend of mine says to those who annoy her, but I am also trying to improve people's reactions to breastfeeding, one at a time. I do refuse to go someplace else to nurse. If I'm reinacting I use the authenticity excuse. Since I've been pretty sucessful with discretion (you can tell I'm nursing, but see no skin), some of the hung up folks seem to be mellowing. (in 18th, non-breastfed babies were usually dead babies!) NeenH --------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:56:10 -0500 Subject: Re: re:Victorian Children's Clothing I'm not sure I was clear--I tend to ramble...kids have accidents frequently until 6 or 7! check out how many schools keep extra clothing for kids in K and 1st grade! In some periods the pants were hard for little boys to do and undo without help. Dresses were easier. Is there any info about them not wearing anything underneath at home, even if they did when they went out or were dressed up? That's what'd do if society didn't pressure me too much (since that is what I do!). Some sects of Judaism still dress the boys like girls until 3 or so because of a similiar superstition. NeenH --------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 16:39:29 -0600 (CST) From: Melanie Jo Schuessler Subject: Re: Period shoes Hello, all. Fran mentioned "the American manufacturer Kenneth Cole" and Anello and Davide in London. Does anyone have an address, or do they put out a catalog, etc.? Thanks, Melanie --------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:36:08 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: 1770's stays I've found the 1785 "large womans" corset in Jean Hunnisets book (Period dress for Stage & Screen 1500-1800) to be very comfortable. I guess it was drafted from an orininal in her collection. The side panels curved around from the outsides of the breasts to a point at centre bottom in front. The side uplift & support was comfy & flattering. It also had the horizontal boning across the nipple line, which curved the finished corset out a bit, so I didn't feel "squished". Hope this helps. Alison --------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 16:00:05 PST From: Laura Mcvay Subject: sewing bee in Redwood City I plan on starting a sewing bee in Redwood City, CA the first week in February (tentative). If you are interested in coming, please e-mail me back (by private e-mail) within the next week with your name (not your e-mail address) and phone number. Alternatively, you can call me at (510) 797-4428. As the date gets closer, and I recover after the birth of my baby, I will give you a call with definite location, time, etc. I was thinking that the first couple of meetings should be on a weekend, after which we should switch to a convienent night during the week. I have a good costume book collection, many of the sewing tools that might be needed to cut etc. You should bring your own sewing machine. By that time, I also hope to have a very young baby (1 month) in the house, and until we switch to during the week, sometimes I will also have an older child (7 yrs). Cheers and happy holidays, Laura McVay --------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 19:17:47 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Kenneth Cole Kenneth Cole is a shoe manufacturer, I think based in New York. They have two retail stores in San Francisco, and I'd assume other cities too. Their shoes are also sold at department stores such as Macy's and Nordstrom. I do not think they sell by mail. Fran Grimble --------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Nov 94 19:09:22 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Victorian children's clothing In message <9411182145.AA22006@wcdev710.dukepower.com> ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com writes: > I have gleaned from novels of the period that changes in dress marked > important changes in status for Victorian children. The significant > changes were: > > "shortening the skirts": moving from long, flowing infant gowns to a > short dress the infant could crawl in -- sometime in the first year, > probably around 6 months or so. > > (boys only) moving from skirts to trousers -- I have seen some arguments > that this was done at toilet-training, but since there are pictures of > four- and five-year-old boys in dresses, this seems unlikely; anybody > got a better guess? Perhaps, perhaps not. However, there may also have been accompanying changes in the manner or rigorousness of toilet training -- but how might we find out about such? I've one idea, though... Does anyone have any statistics for the increase in the numbers of accountants from the 1780's onwards? ;') More seriously, I think the idea about closures makes better sense. Could a four-year-old lad be expected to cope by himself with the buttons on a pair of breeches, even if they weren't fitted with a fly front? Paul C. Dickie --------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Nov 94 09:11:16 MET From: "Insufficient Virtual ... um ... err ..." Subject: RE: Childrens Clothes I read in the book "History of Childrens Clothes" that the tradition to dress boys in dresses can be traced back to 1600. The only explanation they are giving is that until the age of 6 to 7, boys were almost exclusively raised by women and then "formally" "given over" to the opposite sex; at that moment they got their first breeches. Bettina ---------------------------- End of Volume 192 -----------------------