From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:22:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 195, 12/8/94 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 195, December 8, 1994 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Hairstyles for Victorian men and boys Question: Origin of large white feathers Late 16th C footwear Boning corset Question: Dimensions of an Elizabethan farthingale Stockings answers and garter questions "The Theatrical Sourcebook" Question: Techniques of ordering from a catalog Forming: List of suppliers for the h-costume archives Waistcoat vs vest Techniques of opera costuming Question:Spanish costuming source Source for boning and feathers ---------------------------- From: GHaramaki@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 23:01:36 -0500 Subject: Hair on Victorian Men and Boys Just got around to reading costume mail after Thanksgiving holiday. I was intrigued by the message about old Oscar Wilde's center-parted hair. Was the relationship between where hair was parted (side or center) and gender exclusive to the U.S.? Was the distinction limited to children only? Was Wilde making a comment about sex roles? Were, in fact, American Victorian era men blithely wearing their hair center-parted in defiance of my source, Mrs. Dalrymple (American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs; 1991)!!! Off I ran to my bookshelf and breathlessly searched through my very limited library. A cursory review of American daguerrotypes revealed strictly side-parted men. I grabbed my copy of the National Portrait Gallery for a British view of hair and turned to a watercolor of Oscar Wilde in 1884 and saw--egad, no part at all!! He had his hair rather bushy and wild like William Morris (1870) at the time. But I, too, recall seeing a rather unflattering photo of a center-parted Wilde. (I think he looked much better bushy.) Then I came across an oil portrait of Sir Arthur Sullivan (signed and dated 1888) with a center part! (His buddy, Sir William Gilbert [dated1886], appeared to be a side-part man.) Another portrait, Aubrey Vincent Beardsley, an illustrator and designer for Wilde and many others (1891) and incidently a gay man (I think) as Wilde was, sported a center-part. He looked much better in it. I began to think that perhaps only artist-types.....but then I come across Lord Horatio Kitchner (painted in 1890) looking very general-like and Edwardian in his center part. So much for the artist theory. Since the only Victrian men I'd found with center-parts in the National Portrait Gallery were painted in1888 and later, I began to wonder if it was becoming acceptable by the 1890s for men to part their hair in the center. I examined my photos of late Victorian American men more carefully and finally came across two center-parted men amongst the side guys. One was from some time in the 1880s and the other was from sometime in the 1890s! Aha!! My hypotheses, though underresearched, are now as follows: 1) Victorian men generally wore their hair parted on the side (as did boys), however by the 1990s men also began to part their hair in the center. 2) Victorian women and girls, when they parted their hair at all, usually parted it in the center. (I also note that by the1920s, women parted their hair any way they darn well pleased.) I hope that all who've slogged through this will forgive me the length and chalk it up to enthusiasm. --Janet Haramaki ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 16:24:35 +0900 From: d9304570@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Re: Feathers, but not horsefeathers... On the subject of feathers... Wjat are the large white ones in German Renaissance portraits? Are they bleached? Miesje. ---------------------------- From: BILLinMN@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 00:55:57 -0500 Subject: re:Late 16th century footwear > Does >anyone know of a supplier or supplier who makes good 16th/ >17th century footwear? >Robert Coody >(sometimes cuidigh) I have no idea whether they're authentic, but I have a simple pattern for ghillie/moccasins that a 16th century (or so) scottish reenactor sent me after I admired his. You cut them out of a piece of leather, perhaps with a second sole piece for additional thickness, punch holes in the fins that fan out all around the sole, then run a rawhide lace through the holes. The fins are drawn up and overlay each other in a kind of shingled effect. You'd have to experiment, but the ones I saw were pretty good- and a lot more convincing than Jefferson Brogans. If you're interested, I'd be happy to send you a copy of my copy via snail mail if you'll send me an address. Bill Nelson ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 22:24:43 -0800 (PST) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: boning and farthingales I have also used the metal strapping and found it to work great. It seems as though it has a possibly of rusting though. Especially here in Washington. When I got it at Ernst, they had it lying around outside on the ground. I haven't had the corset long enough to see if it is rusting or not. A lady that I have talked to about corsets told me that she uses the metal edge from those green files. I was going to try it but they just seemed a little thick. I did use it on the inside of some eyelets on a dress I made that laces up the back and it helped a lot. She seemed to be very happy with using them in her corsets. Now, I have a question of my own. I just made an Elizabethan farthingale (not a wheel) and I'm not sure if it sticks out in the back too much or not. How much bigger should the back be than the front? It's really fun to wear so I'm excited to make a dress for it. I'm just worried that I might have to redo it because it might look too much like a crinoline. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle, Kingdom of An Tir, Barony of Glymm Mere * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * * "I'll think about it tomorrow!" * ***************************************************************** ---------------------------- From: Title-L_at_NCTSW-N92@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Fri, 02 Dec 94 11:12:12 EST Subject: Re: boning and farthingales Yes, the metal strapping tape will rust over time; my three-year-old white corsets, used for Renaissance fair work, have rust-stains under the arms. That's why I now spray-paint the tape with three coats of Rustoleum paint. I do this after cutting the tape to the desired lengths, filing the cut edges smooth, and then dipping both tips into either aquarium sealant or "shoe goo" thick polyurethane - this last step turns them into giant "bobby-pins" that don't push through the ends of their channels nearly as fast. Painting over top of the hardened "goo" keeps the plastic from catching on the channels as you insert the boning. If you don't want the anachronistic element, try wrapping each painted bone's lower tip in a small wad of wool or cotton batting before inserting it. Hope this helps. ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Dec 1994 14:11:51 -0500 From: rosalind@kenton.iii.net (Lannie Kenton) Subject: Stocking Pattern In response to my post earlier, I have had some inquiries for a pattern for stockings. Although I can't forward anyone the pattern Plimoth Plantation uses and sells, I am in the process of writing detailed instructions on how to draft the pattern for shaped stockings. This would be a very looooonnnnnnggggg post, so if there is anyone who would like a pattern for stockings, e-mail me and I'll put you on the list. It may take a week or two for me to finish the pattern, so have patience. Also, does anyone have any information on how specifically garters were used? When did they simply "wrap and tie" and when did they start attaching stockings to other garments? Thanks! Donna Kenton rosalind@kenton.iii.net ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Dec 94 12:09:31 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Hair on Victorian Men and Boys >... blithely wearing their hair center-parted in defiance of my source >Mrs. Dalrymple (American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs; 1991)!!! >Off I ran to my bookshelf and breathlessly searched through my very limited >library. A cursory review of American daguerrotypes revealed strictly Whew! I'm exhausted after all that! One small comment tho', I find it merely a Generalization that 19th c men are side parted/ women center parted. There was no hard and fast Rule until you start looking in etiquette manuals whereupon each has a Rule and none are the same. Anyway, there will be exceptions that you can chalk up to novelty, eccentricity, being unfashionable and a host of other reasons. You cannot apply statistics to individuals. (Otherwise I'd find myself 49% male or somesuch) And that center parted pic of Oscar Wilde (you're right, it's rather unfortunate!) is reproduced in Alison Germsheid's book of Victorican photos. Off the top of my head, etiquette manuals for men: "Manners for Men" by a Lady is 1890s English. The copious footnotes with American-bashing are hilarious! "The Gentlemen's Friend" also anon, was published in the 1860s? w/ material from earlier magazine articles some as early as the 30s. --cin ---------------------------- From: Kelly_A_Rinne@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu Date: Fri, 2 Dec 94 15:48:40 EST Subject: Supplies in general Lately I have been seeing a lot of messages asking where can I find this notion or that accessory. There is wonderful sourcebook called (aptly enough) The Theatrical Sourcebook: It covers primarily NY suppliers but also many in various parts of the US. It not only covers costume, but props, sets, and their construction materials it really runs the gamut, and at $19.95, is a great thing to have. (Have i emphasized that enough?) I purchased mine through Firesign Theatre Book Club, but know that it is available at Drama Books in NY and Act One in Chi. Kelly -verium et mutabile semper femina -woman is ever a fickle and changeable thing. ---------------------------- From: GHaramaki@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 17:09:35 -0500 Subject: re: statistics on hair and individuals Cynthia, Your most recent posting I think got garbled, I think, on its way to me. I'm am new to the net, so maybe I am getting confused but it sounded like you were under the impression I had sent you private E-mail talking about statistics or something or other with regard to men's hair. It seemed you were quoting some message thinking I was the sender. I am puzzled; I sent you no mail. (Unless it was my other personality...you know I have a whole closet full of outfits I would swear aren't mine...just kidding!) So, you see, you needn't worry that any feathers of mine have become ruffled they are all lying down smoothly, but I am curious. If you'd care to, maybe you could write to me privately at JHaramaki@aol.com and we could sort the mystery out. (Good point about a possible Wilde cowlick. Oh, by the way, I have a cowlick in my bangs too. Mine's on the side and it makes center parting a mess. Good thing I live in this century, eh?) Hoping I Haven't Misunderstood, Janet ---------------------------- From: radueche@ct.med.ge.com (Renee Raduechel) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 94 17:35:38 CST Subject: Catalog Orders Shopping for a historic costume project almost always seems to entail ordering through a catalog, along with or instead of a trip to a store. Often I see ads for catalogs in magazines, and send off a request for them immediately, but I might not get around to ordering anything for six months or so. If you make "delayed orders" too, do you call to confirm prices (I don't have a major credit card, so I don't order over the phone)? Do most companies you deal with have some kind of mailing list, or do they send out price updates or something? Do you just send in your order and hope the prices haven't changed? What happens to your order if the prices _have_ changed in the interim? Catalogs can be expensive enough in themselves. I don't want to order a new catalog every few months if once a year or even once every couple of years is sufficient. Any clues or suggestions? Information on general policy? Seriously, Hoping for a day when every catalog is marked "Prices good until...", Renee radueche@ct.med.ge.com ---------------------------- Date: 03 Dec 94 00:36 GMT From: KRISTEN@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Nichols, Kristen) Subject: Re: Supplies in general >Lately I have been seeing a lot of messages asking where can I find >this notion or that accessory. On this note...How about putting together a list of suppliers that can be requested from Gretchen's list server? (Same as we can request back digest issues) I am more than willing to put the initial list together and update it as people suggest new suppliers. K- ---------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 20:54:36 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: boning and farthingales Um.. I thank you all for the support you showed this rank beginner..GROVELS AT THE FEET OF PEOPLE WHO CAN SEW ON RUFFLES WITHOUT KILLING THEMSELVES... As for the question of the strapping rusting it doesn't seem to do so very easily for mine has been perspiration dampened at many a dance. mine was the shiny black kind are there others?/ If so I can't vouch for them ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howling on the edge of infinite possibility while the scent of chaos fills the air with sweet promises...Samhain's Ghost awaits your reply ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Dec 94 23:19:42 GMT From: James Lynn Subject: Re: Vocabulary question...waist coat v. vest? Hi Jeff, > Is there actually a difference between a waist coat and a vest? I've=20= > heard both words used interchangably, but I was wondering if there's an= y=20 > technical criteria (length perhaps) that differentiates the two. > Thanks > -Grotesque and Arabesque > -Sir.Real I don't know if this applies historically, but I think its an English/American thing. The English is waistcoat. I believe that the American vest is an equivalent. In English a vest is what I think you would call an undershirt. James Lynn Home:james@biometry.demon.co.uk Work:james.lynn@bbsrc.a= c.uk =20 Snappy quote goes here! ---------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:47:32 +0900 From: d9304570@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Waistcoats vs. vests >> Is there actually a difference between a waist coat and a vest? I've=20= >> heard both words used interchangably, but I was wondering if there's an= y=20 >> technical criteria (length perhaps) that differentiates the two. >> Thanks >> -Grotesque and Arabesque >> -Sir.Real > >I don't know if this applies historically, but I think its an >English/American thing. The English is waistcoat. I believe that >the American vest is an equivalent. In English a vest is what I >think you would call an undershirt. > > -James Lynn Ok, my turn. Looking at private school records in both Australia and in England (and just a dash of that awful stuff, common sense) I beg to differ on the last point. It's not only an undershirt, but also a sleeveless v-necked jumper (with buttons equals "cardigan-vest"). This is according to documentation which stipulates clothing to be brought to school, even for "mufti". (Insert common sense bit) It is still called a vest today - just check any cricket player... Just my 2c Miesje ---------------------------- From: DLTR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 20:40:04 -0500 Subject: Re: operatic costuming These same methods (flatlining, deep seams, flat sleeve attachment) are also applied to other stage costumes. As a general rule of thumb, we worked with a 1" to 1 1/2" seam allowance. Hems often had a deep ruffle or band of fabric (period permitting) which could be moved up or down to adjust for length. Darts were also deeper to allow for bust adjusments. The end result is that you have a collection which can be readily modified for a variety of bodies. The clothes do show alot of wear form the constant re-adjusting but bear in mind that under the intense stage lights and at the the distance the audience has from teh garments, the wear is virtually invisible. Diana LIfe is a banquet! ---------------------------- From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 21:52:17 -0500 Subject: source for Queen Juana's drawers Some while back, Fran Grimble wrote: >Someone sent me a message (it may have been private; I >lost it; sorry) asking what kind of fur Queen Juana's >drawers were lined with. Anderson doesn't say. ... I am unfamiliar with this source. Could you please post or e- mail me the full name of the author and book? I would love to look up more information on this. I'm sorry, I've lost your address. Thea TheaG@aol.com ---------------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 07:07:00 -0500 Subject: sources There are two companies that I know of that have steel bones for corsets...spring steele and rounded, finished ends. They are both mail order, and the bones are 25-35 cents each. Tidy's Storehouse: 1-800-826-7771 Jas. Townsend:1-800-338-1665 I generally prefer Townsend, they carry a wider range of bones and it's a friendlier company to work with, but Tidy has some stuff Townsend doesn't. They both seem to specialize in 18th C. They also have lots of patterns, for a variety of periods. I saw lots of peacock feathers for sale, 3/$1.00 at a cat show last weekend. I don't know where to get them mail order, there is a store in Sudbury MA that I think sells them. call a local cat club for all sorts of pretty feathers. They use them a LOT at shows. NeenH ---------------------------- Date: 05 Dec 94 18:34 GMT From: KRISTEN@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Nichols, Kristen) Subject: H-Costume Suppliers List Hi Folks, I am going to put together a list of suppliers that can be requested from Diane's Majordomo archive. If you have any companies you would like added to this list please send me the following information: Company Name: (or if an individual, their name) Address: Phone number: Do they have a catalog: Brief description of items sold: If you don't have all of the information, send what you do have and I will track down the rest. Although many of us know of great local stores I think that it is best to limit this list to those stores/individuals who do mail order only. Please send your reponses directly to me, not the entire list. I don't want everyones mailbox to be stuffed! The address is kristen@applelink.apple.com Thanks, Kristen ---------------------------- End of Volume 195 -----------------------