From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 19:10:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 209, 1/16/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 209, January 16, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: ISO List of US theater costuming departments Smithsonian reproduction fabrics Sources for costume related books Illustrations in "Costume in Detail" Question and answer: Pattern for mid-19C man's suit ISO Suggestions for costume research in France Janet Arnold's underwear book Victorian waist size and ideal vs actual fitting Queen Margot and Restoration ISO Hair pieces Earliest period/country for farthingales ISO Info on working with linen --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 08:30:06 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Miscellaneous comments Does anyone on this list know where I can get a list of theaters or theater costuming departments, with US mail addresses? I'd appreciate any info. The latest issue of _Threads_ says a second Smithsonian fabrics collection, called the Little Sister collection, will be out in May. Patchworks' catalog says they will carry all the Smithsonian collections. The Scholar's Bookshelf Fine Arts catalog often carries costume-related books at a small-to-substantial discount. Selections in their latest, Winter, catalog include: _The Book of Silk_ by Philippa Scott _Costume 1066-1990_, by John Peacock _A Survey of Historic Costume_, by Phyllis Torora and Keith Eubank _The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Costume and Fashion from 1066 to the Present_, by Jack Cassin-Scott _Fashion in the French Revolution_, by Aileen Ribeiro (an excellent book and substantially discounted) _Textiles, 5,000 Years: An International History and Illustrated Survey_, edited by Jennifer Harris _Greek Footwear and the Dating of Sculpture_, by Katherine Dohan Morrow All the Medieval Craftsman series, including Armourers, Embroiderers, and Goldsmiths _Jewellery in Britain 1066-1837: A Documentary, Social, Literary, and Artistic Survey_, by Diana Scarisbrick (I ordered this one) There are also many books on painting, illuminated manuscripts, and period interiors. The catalog is free. The address for inquiries is: The Scholar's Bookshelf 110 Melrich Road Cranbury, NJ 08512 Sorry, there's no phone number in the catalog and I mailed in the order form. Fran Grimble --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:45:11 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: "Costume in Detail" >I had heard before and v[Nancy Bradfield] >also could tell that many of the gowns she drew were from Janet Arnold's >books (it seemed like the majority were in fact) but I could not find any >credit given to Janet Arnold anywhere. Am I missing it?? Or is there >some strange reason she left her name out? Erin K Gault Are you sure she didn't just have access to the same museum/sources that Janet Arnold visited? In that case, there would be no particular reason to cite Arnold. I don't have either book handy to check. Deb Baddorf --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:38:49 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Costume in Detail I use both Arnold & Bradfield a lot, they're good coplements to each other...I think most of the garments shown in both books are in reasonably public collections & both women documented them for their books seperately. Alison --------------------------- From: Christopher Adaline Subject: mid 1800's suit.. Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:57:16 -0500 (EST) This is kinda a general post, but it's my first to this group. :) Does anyone have a pattern for a suit from the mid 1800's (long cut, 3-4 button, vest, shirt w/ striaght collar and windsor knotted tie.) that they want to sell (or give me a copy of :)? Thanks... -- Deacon Evil, keeper of the Darkness: caadalin@mtu.edu The .sig may be lame but check out my .plan (finger caadalin@pace1.cts.mtu.edu) --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:12:07 -0800 (PST) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Re: "Costume in Detail" (fwd) On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Deb wrote: > Are you sure she didn't just have access to the same museum/sources that > Janet Arnold visited? In that case, there would be no particular > reason to cite Arnold. I don't have either book handy to check. > > Deb Baddorf Well, I thought of that too but I seem to remember Raiments or Amazon or someone saying in their little blurb of the book that it is a complement to Arnold's book, meaning that she used Arnold's book as her basis. Just thought I'd ask. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle College of Witt's Haven * * Barony of Glymm Mere, Kingdom of An Tir * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** --------------------------- From: Title-L_at_NCTSW-N92@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 15:52:09 EST Subject: Re: Costume in Detail I have a grad student who will be going to France for three months. She is researching men's 18th century costume and would like advice on museums, libraries, collections which she should visit. I would greatly appreciate any addresses and suggestions. Unfortunately, our library is not as good as I might wish in the area of European resources. Thanks in advance for any help. Cindy Murrell Univ. of Calgary Library cmurrell@acs.ucalgary.ca --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 22:39:48 -0500 (CST) From: Cindy Johnson Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Books When I saw Ms. Arnold speak in Richmond, VA in the fall of '93, I asked her exactly this question. She told me that the book was scheduled to be published eight months prior to when I spoke to her but that it had, as yet, not been completed. Since the book is now two years behind, I suspect it is quite likely about to be published. I don't know which publisher is handling it, though. (Comments from the peanut gallery?) Ms. Arnold also told me that there were plans in the works to film her lectures and distribute them through PBS. I've heard nothing about this project since that time. Has anyone else? Cindy Johnson On Tue, 10 Jan 1995, Lassman, Linda wrote: > In the text to her earliest-period book, Janet Arnold talked about putting > out a volume covering things like chemises, corsets and other undergarments > of the period which were not properly speaking tailored items, but which > would be of interest to modern costumers/re-creaters/costume historians. > > Does anyone know what ever happened to that project? > > - Linda Lassman > Winnipeg, Manitoba > > --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 20:45:31 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Miscellaneous Christopher Adeline asked about men's suit patterns for the mid 1800s. R. L. Shep has reprinted several Victorian tailor's pattern drafting manuals chock full of such patterns. You can enlarge them by projecting or the grid method rather than following the drafting instructions. For sewing and tailoring instructions I'd recommend a modern tailoring manual. Shep's address is: R. L. Shep Box 668 Mendocino, CA 95460 Re Erin Gault's post about Victorian dress sizes: From my observation as a collector, the 1850s and 1860s were not periods of strict corseting. However, a lot of surviving 1880s bodices are very small, not only in the waist but in the back width, ribcage, and even the bust. Though not all of them are, you can find very wearable 1880s dresses. Some of the 1890s bodices are just as small but in general they are bigger. Women have gotten noticeably taller from the turn of the century on. I'm not sure where people get the stereotype of the super-small Victorian waist. It was a period ideal, but in any period few people live up to the ideals. I suspect some lied about their measurements. My mother was born in 1913 (hey guys, I came along late in her life) and she told me a story about her grandmother, who of course was a Victorian. When my mother was a little girl her grandmother used to take her along when she went shopping. The Victorians also had an ideal of very small feet. My great-grandmother had large feet but didn't want to admit it. So when she went into a shoe store she'd ask the salesperson to bring her a size 2. The salesperson would measure her feet and bring the much larger size she actually wore. The salespeople were too tactful to comment, so my great-grandmother was able to maintain the illusion that she had small feet. Also, when I was taking formal clothing design courses the students usually made clothes for themselves. We were allowed to make them for other people, but the instructors supervised the fittings and it was a nuisance to bring outsiders into the class to be fitted. Anyway, at the beginning of every course we teamed up in pairs to take detailed measurements. The instructors always emphasized that we had to use our _real_ measurements. Just the same I was always hearing people say things like "Write down my waist as three inches less than that, I'm not normally this size but I had a big dinner last night." Some people designed clothes from a sloper a size or two too small and then had to redo everything during the fittings. On a slight tangent: Ever see those 1870s dresses with the prominent abdomen? This past weekend I wore one of them. I've worn my 1870s dresses occasionally before, but this was the first time I'd worn this dress. The bodice fit perfectly. The overskirt was draped in front and back, which gave part of the look. But also there was a thick, pleated ruffle around the overskirt waist. I couldn't figure out why, since it didn't provide visible decoration (it went under the bodice). When I put the dress on I realized the sole purpose of the ruffle was to make the waist thicker and the stomach bigger. I looked like I'd gained at least 10 pounds or become at least three months pregnant. This period ideal takes some getting used to. Fran Grimble --------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 12 Jan 95 09:43:00 GMT Subject: Films Someone asked a while ago about a film called 'Margot', whether anyone knew anything about it. 'La Reine Margot' has just been released in the UK, reviewed in todays paper. The director is Patrice Chereau, starring Isabele Adjani, Daniel Auteuil and Virna Lisi as Catherine de Medici. Based on a Dumas novel it is about the wedding in 1572 of Marguerite de Valois and Henri of Navarre (later Henri IV of France) which sparked off (debate) the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. It is described as a 'febrile swoon', 'marinated in gore and lovingly trimmed with the finest brocade'. Apart from that there is no review of the costumes! It sounds like a voluptuous romp, and if I get to see it I shall comment on this list. The other film mentioned was 'Restoration'. This is being filmed at the moment with, I think, Sam Neill as Charles II, and is based on a book of the same name (sorry, I haven't got the authors name to hand - I can find it at home if it is felt to be useful). The book is not about the Restoration of Charles II, it is much more odd than that. The main character becomes doctor to Charles II's spaniels, marries one of Charles's mistresses, spends time in a Quaker-run madhouse and generally sees from the top to the bottom of Stuart society. Well worth a read, but more from a literary than historical point of view - very post-modern. I have just seen '1492, Conquest of Paradise' with Gerard Depardieu. Interesting - I was very uncertain about Isabella's gowns. Were they wearing farthingales in Spain in the 1490s? The skirts were surely too wide to be supported on anything else. In England I would give a definate NO, but maybe in Spain they were - any comments? Caroline Ora Pro Nobis --------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 9:33:07 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: re: Victorian waist sizes >I'm not sure where people get the stereotype of the super-small Victorian >waist. It was a period ideal, but in any period few people live up to the >ideals. I suspect some lied about their measurements. One other source for the super-small waist concept: The Amazon catalog, while telling you how to measure to order a corset, mentions that the 18" (or whatever) waist claimed during Victorian times was usually the corset measurement. And, naturally, there has to be 3-5" of extra room, so that you can pull the laces tight. You never make a corset to your exact measurements, or you can't pull it any tighter than "closed". So if you claimed a 23" waist (read: 23" corset) you might actually have a 28" waist. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov --------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 13:33:32 -0800 From: maynard@figaro.Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) Subject: fake hair Mum's going to a ball and has short hair. She's got a snood and would like to attach and stuff it with moderately similar hair. I know it's not historic, but you reenactors prolly deal with it. No time to collect her own, and don't want to pay real hair prices. Where can one go to buy switches or other fake hair pieces? Thanks, alexandra --------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 19:28:07 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Farthingales Caroline asked whether farthingales were worn in Spain in 1492. According to _Hispanic Costume 1480-1530, by Ruth Matilda Anderson, hoops began to appear in Spain in the 1460s or 1470s. At first they were worn on the outside of the skirt, covered with rich fabric, as a decorative feature. By the mid 1530s the upper classes wore their hoops concealed, but the lower classes still used them as decoration. Queen Isabel was fond of hoop skirts. She had many in her inventory and was recorded as wearing a hoop skirt in 1473 to receive Burgundian ambassadors. Her confessor Talavera published some text (I'd have to look in the bibliography for the title, but Anderson gives quotes) that claimed hoop skirts were invented to conceal the results of immoral behavior. (This claim was also made when hoops were reintroduced in the 18th century and again by the Victorians.) The Spanish hoops were called "verdugos," which I believe was the origin of the English term "farthingale." Woolen cloth was packed around the hips below the hoop skirt. In 1501 the English noted that Catherine of Aragon and her ladies were wearing hoops. By 1507 the Italian authorities (near Venice) passed sumptuary legislation against hoops. The French were wearing hoops before the mid 16th century. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble --------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:07:37 -0800 (PST) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: linen I just bought some linen (normally 22.98/yd on sale for 6.00/yd) and I'm planning on making a cotehardie with it. My problem is that I can't remember if you can wash linen in the washer and dryer or do you have to handwash is? Also, do I need to preshrink? Thanks for any help! ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle College of Witt's Haven * * Barony of Glymm Mere, Kingdom of An Tir * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** ---------------------------- End of Volume 209 -----------------------