From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:34:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 235, 2/24/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 235, February 24, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Skirt linings for cotehardies ISO: Rainments address ISO: Tips for dying muslin Question and answers: Nielo inlay Simply nonsense ISO: How to calculate yardage for a hoopelande ISO: PA miner's cap, circa 1910 Elizabethan Households exhibit, Washington DC Costume periodicals Menstruation The pleated panel in German and Italian dress Shaving Results of the kimono scraps order ISO: Pattern for leather doublet and trews ISO: Info on constructing masks for Into the Woods Sewing machine woes ----------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:15:49 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: skirt linings for cotehardies On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, andrea ruth leed wrote: > > I've been looking at a lot of illumanations recently, and have been > noticing that a good number of cotehardies seem to be lined with a > contrasting fabric--when the inside is shown at all, that is. I was > wondering how it would be accomplished. One could go the fiendishly > difficult route and flat-line the entire thing, in effect making two > dresses sewn together at the hem and neckline; or each section could > have a corresponding lining, and the two sewn like one piece. But I > haven;'t seen any raw seams showing on the lining. Would tend to bag line such a thing, myself. I usually at least line it down to the hip level, both for structural support and for a support of the closure down the front. My understanding from info from the London Museum Dress and Accesories book is that this may ba a great deal more than was common for many of these dresses. One bit mentioned that the internal seams were only finished to the hip (which is where the actual abrasion/wear would be, and not below, because it didn't need it. Practical people, these :*) I line it as a workmanship issue, as that is what suits my 20th century sensibilities and knowledge of the craft. One thing they may have been lined with, though, is fur. Remember, we were heading into a little ice age here, and fur was much more available and socially desirable. I believe that squirrel bellies are very supple and soft, and were a commonly used lining for this sort of thing. And squirrels are sorta like bunnies, so its easy to get. > If the lining is flat-lined, how would one accomodate the > inevitable uneven droop and sag of circle skirts? > Someone else made the point I would have here about not actually having a whole lot of bias, really. I made a cote hardie recently where the triangular gores inset were strips cut from between the long straight- from-the-hip cut princess seamed panels. My local Goddess of Gothic assured me that I'd get a nice skirt this way, but I was really dubious that it would be full enough- each inset panel was only 6-7" across at the bottom. It looked fabulous! She was right! With 8 seams to fiddle with, it doesn't take much at each one to add up to enough. BTW, the same is true here if you want to make the dress fit over your head instead of skin tight. Evidently, according to my friend's research, this style (called a cote-simple, if I'm remembering right) existed side by side with the tighter (and slightly more fashionable) cote-hardie. If you want to do this, take the widest measure of either your bust or the underarm area. What ever the smallest circumference you need to get something over your head (don't forget to include the bulk of any underwear you might be wearing with the dress). Then add enough to each individual panel of the gown waist measure to equal this total. With an 8 pc dress, it takes very little addition to each piece to achieve this comfiness, and its perfectly medieval. And still quite sleek and graceful. -*-*- Beth McMahon, swamped in Gothic these days ;*) ----------------------- From: IfferW@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:18:08 -0500 Subject: Questions My name is Jennifer Woody and I am new to this list. I have a couple of questions to ask. First, I have misplaced the address for Reminents (I hope I spelled that right!) Could someone please send it to me? My second question is what dye who anyone suggest for muslin? I have never dyed anything before. Do I dye it before I sew it together or afterwards? Thanks, Jennifer ----------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:53:20 -0600 (CST) From: Melanie Jo Schuessler Subject: Re: Costuming periodicals/journals? On Mon, 20 Feb 1995, Jennifer Kubenka wrote: > > Something I have been wondering about, and have had little luck finding, > is information about periodicals and journals that include articles about > costuming.... OOOOHHhhhhhh--please post this info to the list! Melanie :) ----------------------- From: MEtheri858@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 03:14:55 -0500 Subject: Nielo I would be interested in any one who might have some experience with doing nielo inlay. I'd like to try my hand at it and could use some basic advice. Thank you in advance. MEtheri858@aol.com ----------------------- From: BEARLEE1@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:48:44 -0500 Subject: Strickly NONSENSE.... Found this in my E-Mail this morning.... So..........which one of you costumers out there is over doing it now..... Sorry just couldn't resist... Carole ***** News From Around The World ***** A hunter in Uganda is being sought by local authorities for illegally hunting gorillas. He shoots them with a tranquilizer gun and dresses them in clown suits. So far six (6) gorillas have been found wandering around in this condition. A Ugandan spokesman stated that this was a person with a truly sick sense of humor. They felt this was a cruel practice, since they had to tranquilize the gorillas again to take the suits off! ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:50:32 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Questions On your second question: it's always easier to dye cloth before you sew it. The heat of the water and the stirring of the cloth can make it shrink, especially such cloths as cotton muslin. In addition, any badly spotted areas can be worked around and left out of the costume. I'm not sure what dyes work well with cotton fabric. (i assume you mean natural. Alum is a good, all-purpose mordant unless you're looking for a specific effect or have instructions to the contrary with the dye you're using. Most dyes take wonderfully on wool, almost as well on silk, and very faintly on cotton, linen, and other vegetable-fiber cloth. A wonderful, if expenisve and somewhat limited book for this purpose is _Madder, Indigo, Marigold_. At least, I think that's the title. It's full of photos of the effect different dyes and mordants have on wool, silk, cotton, linen, and other fabrics, as well as specific instructions on how to achieve these effects. I have a question of my own--I'm wanting to make a medieval houppelande, one of those luxuriously pleated and dagged creations that make you look pregnant and tangle up easily, and I wanted to know if anyone could give me the yardage for such a project (huge sleeves too) off the top of their head. I /hate/ calculating pleats. I'm six foot,and pretty busty. On Mon, 20 Feb 1995 IfferW@aol.com wrote: > My name is Jennifer Woody and I am new to this list. I have a couple of > questions to ask. First, I have misplaced the address for Reminents (I hope > I spelled that right!) Could someone please send it to me? My second > question is what dye who anyone suggest for muslin? I have never dyed > anything before. Do I dye it before I sew it together or afterwards? > > Thanks, > Jennifer > > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- Subject: miner's hat Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:04:07 -0600 (CST) From: Shirley Matheis Can anyone tell me where I can obtain a Pennsylvania miner's hat ca. 1910? I need it yesterday! Shirley Matheis ----------------------- From: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 07:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Elizabethan Households Cross posting this for those interested in the Elizabethan time period and those lucky enough to live close enough to see this exhibit. --------------------------( Forwarded letter 1 follows )--------------------- >>From: Dave Postles pot@leicester.ac.uk >Subject: Elizabethan Households >Reply-to: H-NET British and Irish History List >From _Perspectives_, vol 33, no 2 (Feb 1995): The Folger Institute, Washington DC Elizabethan Households An exhibition, 13-20 May 1995 The exhibition illustrates housing and household conditions in 16th- and 17th-century England, a 'revolution in architecture and living standards', looking particuarly at: persons; spaces; possessions; and practices of the private household. A fully illustrated catalogue is available from the museum shop. Furthermore, a package of course materials is provided to every participant in the academic conference _Material London, c.1600_. Contact: Folger Institute, Folger Shakespeare Library, 201 E. Capitol St., Washington, DC20003; (202) 544-4600, x349. Dave Postles, pot@le.ac.uk ----------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:20:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Costume Periodicals There are quite a few scholarly journals that print articles on historic costumes. In addition to these, you can often find information archeological journals that recount the discoveries of textiles and clothing in digs. But the following journals all carry articles of historic costumes. Costume (the journal of the British Costume Society) Burlington Magazine Textile History Waffen-und Kostumkunde (German, but articles are frequently in English) These are just the 4 most common that I know of. Another good source for journal citations is the bibliography in the back of a very good costume book. Janet Arnold's bibliographies have led me to some fabulous journals and articles. Good hunting! Denise Zaccagnino known as Lady Deonora Ridenow in the SCA ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:43:25 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Dye THe question was brought up about dying cotton muslin. There arre severral ways to do this, 1st the fabric should be free of all size this 9s best done by two washings in very hot water. Then you can eather pre-dye the whole fabric or if you want a more even job perr garment you can construct the garment and then dye. REMEMBER: IF YOU WANT YOUR THREAD TO DYE IT MUST BE 100% COTTON AS WELL. As far as the question of what type of dyes to use the most readily aviable is Rit, it is easyy to use in eather the washing machine or stove top. Follow the directions carefully or streaking will occure and be aware that it is not truely colorfast, your colors will fade quickly with eather washings or sunlight, the darker the color the faster the fading. Analyn (?) dye is a strong toxic chemical dye I would not recomend it for home use as the fumes re very dangerous and the resulting exhaust is harmful to the environment. But if you ever need to dye polyester this is about the only thing that will work well. Fiber reactive dyes are the wave of the future. The most well known brand name is Procion, it is aviable maill order through various places (Rupert, Gibbon and Spider or Dhrama, I have address and (800#s) if desired). They are easy to use and give good ccolor fast results every time. If anyone would like more detailed instructions e-mail me directly and I have a good easy to follow set that I will be glad to forward on. --Kathy B. --Katrinn ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:27:03 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: women's products I also remenber belts and so should anyone that has had a baby imediantly after delivery there is one placed on and left on basically until you can leave the hospital. (It's easier to checck blood flow than with stick on pads). This is from someone who has had four babies and worked in laborr and deliverry and nursery forr 8 years. My mother grew up in the "great depression" and talks about using rags but she said that she used pre-made pads in high school and collage. THen when world war II came along everyone switched back to rags for the war effort, something about "Waist not, want not". She says that after not long after the war was over store bought pads ccame back into heavy use. I don't remenber where I came acrrross this but it's been years ago. In one of the "Bog-digs" they found a women, she was young and buried with her along with the other grave goods where several bags made of Sprrang weaving (this is a forrm of weaving that makes a mesh simalar to the expanding reusable grocery bags). They where small and filled with woll both felted and cleaned, lose combed as well as moss. During the analysis of these they descovered traces of blood. No conclusion was ever given but it makes you wonder? :-) --Kathy B. --Katrinn ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:38:43 EST From: gilbertl@moe.coe.uga.edu (Linda Gilbert) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 229, 2/20/95 >----------------------- >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:03:15 -0800 (PST) >From: Heather Rose Jones >Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 224, 2/13/95 > >On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Sarah Randles wrote: > >> In response to this and other postings on this type of dress - yes they are >> definately authentic. Not only Durer, as Dawn mentioned, but also a great >> many German woodcuts from the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries depict >> these styles of dresses. There is a formidable set of books on German >... >> This dress feature also appears in fifteenth century Italy, with some >> variations. The pleated panel is much wider going almost all the way across >> the front of the dress, and starts under the bust. I made one of these > >We'd have to compare painting citations to make sure we're talking about >the same effect, but ... are we discussing the type of gown (or man's >tabard of the same period) that has sculpturally perfect round folds >falling from around chest level throughout the length of the garment? If >so, I have made a different interpretation. Comparing with >representations that aren't quite so perfect and stylized -- but still >appear to be the same style -- and with slightly earlier styles, I >interpret this as the natural folds of a widely-flaring garment, >represented in art as being much more regular (and perhaps fuller) than >the original may have been. If you look at a painting like Fiorenzo di >Lorenzo's "The Miracle of St. Bernardino" (1473) you see tabards in the >same style with drapes of varying "naturalness". Interestingly, the >foreground figures have more pronounced and (by my interpretation) >stylized folds than the two background figures. > >What do others think of this possible interpretation? > >Heather Rose Jones I think that it's *sometimes* just a circle, but *not* always. Like all garments, there's an evolution....probably early forms started much as you described, but it became more sophisticated over time. Many times, the cut is more complex (and the artist more accurate) than we like to believe... (An aside -- I always thought the landscapes were stylized too, until I the first time I visited Italy and discovered that I just didn't know what the terrain looked like there. I am much less willing to accept that "the artist is just wrong" than I used to be, at least until I've worked from the paradigm that "this is a real observation of a real thing" for a while, and tried to figure it out.) There's a new book (reference not handy, of course) on Piero della Francesca, an Italian artist who depicted the type of garment Heather describes. However, I don't *think* she and Sarah are talking about quite the same thing. At a guess, sounds like Sarah's talking about the Schifanoia Palace frescos, which show two distinct styles of dress during a transition period. One is a sort of houppelande variant, the other has a waistline just below the bust, with a deeply pleated skirt...there is a scene of lovers around a pool which primarily features the second form of dress. (Sarah: a standing woman with a lute by a seated man and woman kissing? the women's hair in two little "horns", possibly with little veils? Red bead necklaces on many of the women? Part of a cycle which also includes a group of women weaving?) Heather sounds as if she's describing the Italianate form of the houppelande. (I know there are more accurate names for the garment than that, but that term should get the point across.) If you two *would* post actual painting citations, I'd love to look at them! Anyway, back to Piero. It's about the 500th year anniversary of this artist, so he's getting lots of attention. This particular text included not only examples of his paintings, but *photos* of modern recreations of the garments. *They*look*right* -- just as "stylized" as the original paintings. The text, alas, is in Italian, but I have the impression from my limited translation efforts that the solution includes stuffed gussets -- an approach I had never envisioned and have not yet tried. Will look for the reference and send it on. I'd be very interested in others' reading of this text. (Also, Sarah is quite right on both garments under discussion: while probably comfortable for pregnant women, they are definitely not intended solely as maternity dress-- they're the fashion of the time.) Ciao! ;^) Linda G. Mistress Leonora Simonetta d'Este Linda Gilbert | "Through learning we The University of Georgia | recreate ourselves." gilbertl@moe.coe.uga.edu | -- Peter Senge ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:53:00 -0600 (CST) From: Cynthia Lucille Rosser Subject: Re: Costuming periodicals/journals? On Mon, 20 Feb 1995, Jennifer Kubenka wrote: > > Something I have been wondering about, and have had little luck finding, > is information about periodicals and journals that include articles about > costuming. Even though I work in a library, the Arts Index, the > Humanities Index, and the Social Sciences Index provide very little > information about costuming, needlework, and associated topics. > > I would love to know what kinds of periodical and journals exist. > > I know of Pieceworks and Threads, but these are both > needlecraft-oriented. What about costuming? > > > Ever curious, > > Jennifer D. Kubenka > Series Authority/Monographs Cataloger > Fondren Library > Southern Methodist University > Dallas, Texas > For indexing and abstracts of articles about costume/clothing try RILA and/or Clothing and Textile Arts Index these sets are available at many libraries. I checked Ulrich's Plus CD (1993/94) and most of the entries are foreign. The one US periodical that looked promising did not give an ISSN, but here it is anyway...CSA News. $55yr. Costume Society of America. 55 Edgewater Drive. Box 73. Earleville, MD 21919. 410-275-2329. Art Index, Humanities Index, American History & Life, Historical Abstracts, Abstracts in Anthropology, and DAI will occasionally cover clothing these are available in print or CD in many university libraries. Hope this helps. Cindy Rosser GLA Reference Willis Library UNT Denton, Tx ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:04:05 PST From: linda@Synopsys.COM (Linda Roy) Subject: shaving My mother (born 1928 in San Francisco) told me that "nice" girls didn't shave when she was young. Could that be a backlash to the Flappers? Linda Roy linda@symopsys.com ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:17:32 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Scraps Thanks to everyone who responded to my inquiry about sources for kimono scraps. Several people asked about the "tie" scraps I had ordered. My package arrived yesterday, WHEEEE, so I will send the info. to everyone. The address is A.J. & Norton, p.o. box 16, Whitehall, Montana 59759 (no phone) send SASE for brochure. the ad was in the back of Threads. I cana't remember if they wanted money for the samples or not. Anyway, it's worth the trouble BECAUSE for $20 + $6 UPS I got a 10 lb. bundle of large silk scraps (I'm guessing here, I'd say at least 1/3 to 1/2 yard a pc.) This is heavy Italian silk in stripes, foulards, paisleys, geometrics, and figurative and abstract patterns. Most were gorgeos on both sides. The colours are somewhat dark/subtle which suits me fine. They take requests and also do custom pkgs. I certainly feel I got my money's worth. i sent them a check Feb. 1, and as I said the pkg. arrived Feb. 20. If you can't imaging what 10 lb. of silk looks like, the bundle was in a priority mail box, and is about 2-3" thick, by about 12x15 (maybe bigger. I didn't measure it) No, I'm not related to these people, just thrilled to get such really cool stuff cheap. Great for vests, jackets, etc. although I'm actually thinking of a coverlet patterned after a Japanese "kesa", or some kind of crazy- quilting. In the same delivery was the copy of the "Orientalism" exhibit cat. I ordered from the Metropolitan Museum. It is perhaps a little thin-- but absolutely gorgeous. Interesting for historical/couture aspects, and inspiring for wearable-art (IMHO) The surprising thing for me is that except for the 18th c. dresses, and the Fortunys, I couldn't guess the period of the costumes. They run from the 20's to Gaultier and Lauren in the '90's. I'm really glad I bought it, and thanks to the nice person who posted the information about it. I really recommend it to anyone interested in beautiful clothes. Susan Fatemii (Fatemi) susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu (If anyone has noticed how often I have typos, etc. It's not me! I can't edit on line and my keyboard always types extra iiiiis. It's really a pain to use the sytem we have, and we're all eager for an upgrade!) ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:46:29 -0800 From: John Stelling Subject: trews & doublet I'm trying to get the last of my costume changes done for LHC. Does anyone have a pattern (or source for same) for a leather doublet and a pair of trews circa 1500's. jds =============================================================================== John Stelling (Computer Scientist) | Anyone can act, Naval Warfare Assessment Division | But turn out the lights and Corona, CA | ain't no one gonna see ya | do it ;-) ivan@krynn.nwac.sea06.navy.mil | =============================================================================== ----------------------- From: 0100725@NORTHWEST.MISSOURI.EDU Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:31:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: software and masks I have 2 questions. First, I am price shopping and exploring for information concerning software for autocad as it pertains to costumes. We are buying a new system. Secondly, I am about to embark into the unknown world of foam latex to make two masks for Into the Woods Into the Woods and would appreciate any warnings/advise there is. Please don't tell me how hard it is. I'm doing it anyway. Dyann (if you already know how, why do it again). ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:36:55 PST From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Stupid sewing machine!! Greetings, all. I have a sewing machine question. I'm trying to make cuffs for a 16th century man's shirt. I'm sewing one layer of evenweave linen to one layer of standard, plain ol' linen, with some ribbon ties sandwiched in there. The problem: when I try to sew the seam, the underside of the seam comes out as a raveled mess of thread loops. Yech. Usually, that means the tension is too loose...but I've played with the tension dial to no avail. When I sewed a seam with an extra layer (the frill at the top of the collar) it came out fine. Any suggestions? Gail DeCamp Speaking from, but not for, Network General Corporation ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:47:23 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Subject: Re: More Menstruation Sarah E. Goodman (goodston@well.sf.ca.us) wrote: ... >> And I apologize for any unnecessary graphic-ness. >Not to give Beth a hard time or anything, but my feminist self wonders >why we are all kind of tip-toeing around a subject that is, after all, a >fact of life and dealt with for half the population for probably about >half of their lives. ... On behalf of the sensible and not overly-sensitive men, here, here! We're all grownups here, aren't we? (Those responding to the contrary kindly avert their eyes. ;{) ) Personally, I'm finding all of this fascinating. But thanks to Beth for her courtesy; if unnecessary, yet thoughtful. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Don't put that in your mouth--you know where it's been!" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:08:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: skirt linings for cotehardies Hi, I tend to think that flat-lining, rather than bag lining was more the case. Elizabethian garments were often flat-lined, and the raw seams covered over with bias strips. Flat-lining adds more structural stability, and also makes the garment easily disassemblable (gads, what a word!) for re-sizing and recycling. It makes sense that they would wish to be able to re-use fabric as much as possible! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- End of Volume 235 -----------------------