From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:09:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 255, 3/15/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 255, March 15, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Sources for wool (USA) Downed feed Howard Hughes and bra history Girdles and posture/movement Thanks for answer to list posting problems Roman bras Anyone interested in a costuming web page? ISO: Costuming events in Riverside, CA in late May Getting actresses comfortable in historic costuming "The wearing of costume" Mulberries ----------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Wool and sheep Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:26:01 -0500 (EST) Every year I see wonderful bales of wool of all colors and types at the Ohio State Fair. You can also find them sometimes at country fairs and other events where 4-H, Future Farmers of America, etc. show. The prices seem fair and sometimes you get the choice of cleaned or unprocessed. Marsha ----------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 12:49:02 PDT From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Victorian corset question Hi, all. No sooner did I post a question about my misbehaving victorian corset than our mail gateway went down, down, down. Did anybody save the postings on that subject? Would anyone care to email me a summary thereof? This posting is the first I've seen on the subject. I'm at decampg@smtplink.ngc.com. Thanks! Gail DeCamp ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Author: hag@moose.uvm.edu at smtplink Date: 3/8/95 9:11 AM > the hips at the side. (I'm beginning to wish we could all get together to > compare corsets, because I have a feeling that we may be talking about > apples and oranges at least in part.) Well maybe we can. I'd be happy to set up a Web page with pictures of corsets. (I was going to add that the corsets could be on live models to show fitting or just pictured by themselves, but I don't want this to become an online Victoria's Secret catalog or encourage postings like that recent contentious note!) In fact, as there seem to be a number of people here who have created wonderful garments, I would love to start an online collection of any and all of them. What do you think? Do you have pictures that you'd be willing to send? If there's an interest I'll do it. - Hope ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit The Hall's latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 The Ovid Project ----------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Bras and Howard Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:49:36 -0500 (EST) > > Just a point on Howard Hughes' influence on the bra. There was an > interview with Rita Hayworth published not long ago, in which she said that > although HH had 'invented' a new bra to get the outline he wanted, it was > so uncomfortable she had only pretended to wear it, and gone back to her > previous underwear - and HH hadn't noticed! I heard a similar story but it was attributed to Jane Russell for whom Howard Hughes designed his structural bra. He wanted no seams to show through her stretchy fabric dress (the famous "Come Hither" publicity photo for The Outlaw.) She found his bra uncomfortable so she put on her regular bra but put tape (masking tape?) over the seams so they wouldn't show through the dress and he was none the wiser. Since Rita Hayworth has been dead for several years and Jane Russell is still alive, (and was the one for whom the bra was designed), it is more likely to be her. Marsha ----------------------- From: "Lloyd C. Meroney" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:08:36 GMT-6 Subject: Re: Bras and Howard > > Just a point on Howard Hughes' influence on the bra. There was an > > interview with Rita Hayworth published not long ago, in which she said that > Since Rita Hayworth has been dead for several years and Jane Russell > is still alive, (and was the one for whom the bra was designed), it > is more likely to be her. I too had a double take concerning the interview with Rita Hayworth. My secretary was telling me yesterday she thought Rita developed Alzhiemer's Disease at a relatively young age (early 60's) before dying. [BTW, I'm new to the list, and I've thoroughly enjoy the conversations!] Lloyd Meroney ****************************************************** Amarillo College Amarillo, Texas ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:23:18 -0500 Subject: Re: More on underwear...... Cynthia discusses the idea of using period girdles in plays which require them: It should also be pointed out that there is a significant difference in the movement of a woman wearing a panty-girdles, versus one wearing an open-style girdles, which was more common prior to the early fifties. So, if one were to be as accurate as possible in the portrayal of women of THAT era, one should consider using open-girdles in plays and motion pictures which take place prior to, say, 1954 or so. The hindrence to leg movement and resulting general body movement was noticeably different in each instance. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:23:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Responses being ignored..... Well, I am extremely gratified that I have received a large volume of mail regarding my difficulty with reponses. I am happy to say that you ALL have been extremely helpful, but, due to the large number of reponses from you on the list, I hope you all do not mind this public reponse to your reponses--Now that I know what I am doing! Mainly, even though I was "reponding to all", in many cases my reponses were automatically sent only as private e-mail (I did not realize that reponses come "from" respondees, not the list address). So now I have the proper reponse address in my addressbook and will never suffer feeliings of rejection again! I must admit, being a bit of a newbie on the I-net (but certainly not on computers in general), I was taken aback by the earlier "flaming" I received (guess many of you have been buirned in the past). Guess I figured I was being blackballed. I am happy to see that you all seem very kind. Thank you again (esp. Jennifer's voluminous dessertation). Talk to you ALL on the list soon.....I find all the talk on corsetry and Victorian era costume interesting and hope to put my two cents in now and then. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:23:24 -0500 Subject: Re: More on underwear..... Danine responds....... >> part of the story of ladylike comportment, << One must also remember that what might be delicately referred to as a "loose dierriere" was also proscribed on ladies of "comportment." Young ladies wore girdles to keep their rears firm, especially under tight skirts! Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace A ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 18:28:24 EST Subject: Re[2]: Bras and Howard Harold Robbins used the story of Howard Hughes and the bra (constructed for Jane Russell in "The Outlaw") in his potboiler novel "The Adventurers."(I think that's the title). I remember my mother howling over the chapter where the structural engineer build the bra for the overendowed starlet. It's a good story. Who cares if it's true. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:56:48 -0800 (PST) From: Dianne Karp Subject: Re: Roman Bras In ~The Chronicle of Western Fashion~ by John Peacock, there is a drawing of a woman wearing a pair of panties and a tube top (for lack of a better discription). It is on page 20 "Ancient Rome c. 750-300BC and she is listed as a gymnast, c. 400-300BC. Dianne On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Chris Laning wrote: > To-HC@ Tuesday, March 7, 1995 > > Someone mentioned in passing seeing what looked like a bra on a lady > depicted in Roman times. I don't know where I read it (my mind is like a lint > trap) but I remember reading that this - - which from the description > sounded more like just a covering garment than a support garment - - was > an undergarment worn by all "decent" women at all times. In fact, > respectable women kept it on even while making love with their husbands. > It was considered quite daring and "abandoned" to take it off! > > Perhaps someone with good library references can track this down and see > if I remember it correctly. As I recall, wherever I saw it even gave the Latin > name of the garment. > > Of course, I would expect that like many things Roman (or Greek, Egyptian, > Mycenean...) there was *not* necessarily continuity from their times up to > ours. The idea of covering a sensitive (and often erotically charged) part of > the body must have occurred many times. > ____________________________________________________________ > O Chris Laning > | > + Davis, California > ____________________________________________________________ > > P.S. I don't usually wear one myself, but I clearly recall finding it a > necessity at summer camp, for one reason: mosquitos will cheerfully bite > through a shirt, but the extra layer of bra is enough to discourage them! > ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:21:39 -0800 (PST) From: Tracey Miller Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question > Well maybe we can. I'd be happy to set up a Web page with pictures of > corsets. (I was going to add that the corsets could be on live models to > show fitting or just pictured by themselves, but I don't want this to > become an online Victoria's Secret catalog or encourage postings like > that recent contentious note!) > > In fact, as there seem to be a number of people here who have created > wonderful garments, I would love to start an online collection of > any and all of them. What do you think? Do you have pictures that you'd > be willing to send? > > If there's an interest I'll do it. > > - Hope > Wow! I was hoping to someday see something like this on the 'Net! Consider me interested. Tracy ----------------------- From: Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:23:48 -0500 Subject: Westward Ho! I find I will be in Riverside, California (about 1 1/2 hour south of LA, I'm told) on business from Sunday evening May 21 through Friday June 2, with the possibility of working through Friday June 9th. Is there anything nifty going on within reach, either re Regency/vintage dance, SCA, Costumery, dressage/side-saddle English horsemanship, or anything else noteworthy (is that enough scope :) ? I may be able to come out early (home base is Washington DC) if something good is up the weekend of the 20th, or stay late for the 10th of June. I'd be especially interested in ideas for the Memorial day weekend; my bosses may make me work Saturday, but I'm likely to have Sunday and the Monday holiday off. They're also trying to get me to go again June 23 through the Fourth of July weekend to July 7th or 9th. We'd be off the 2nd and 4th that trip. Any ideas? I appreciate quick responses on this one, since I have to commit to one or both of these trips by Friday COB, though of course further ideas after that will be welcome. I expect to have access to a rental car at least part of the time. Thanks for the help - maybe I can meet a few of the familiar voices in this wonderful circle - or bring with me something you need from the East coast! Lynn mice, beef jerky and fabric do mix, but not in the same drawer... ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 23:23:17 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question I've a few pictures of costumes I've made: a cotehardie, a corset and chemise, full flaming elizabethan, and something which can only be described as a wench bodice. I can scan them in, transfer them to GIF or JPEG format, and send them to your account if you wish. Drea *****Zona Gaudeamus***** On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Tracey Miller wrote: > > Well maybe we can. I'd be happy to set up a Web page with pictures of > > corsets. (I was going to add that the corsets could be on live models to > > show fitting or just pictured by themselves, but I don't want this to > > become an online Victoria's Secret catalog or encourage postings like > > that recent contentious note!) > > > > In fact, as there seem to be a number of people here who have created > > wonderful garments, I would love to start an online collection of > > any and all of them. What do you think? Do you have pictures that you'd > > be willing to send? > > > > If there's an interest I'll do it. > > > > - Hope > > > > Wow! I was hoping to someday see something like this on the 'Net! > Consider me interested. > > Tracy > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- From: Tiepolo2@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 23:56:14 -0500 Subject: Dressing like ladies Beth wrote: >I was in "The Subject Was Roses", which is a play that takes place just after >WW2. My costumes included hats, girdles, and high heeled platform shoes. I >was a different person! In deed, it is my opinion that the motion of pulling >off gloves when taking off a coat (or whatever) is one of the most feminine >and sexy motions ever shaped by dress. Although I am a very big fan of jeans >and tshirts, >I think a great deal of , er, atmosphere has been lost by the increasing >casualness of women's dress, even that of professionals I agree with Beth completely that although the comfort and convenience of modern clothing is wonderful, something extremely valuable has been lost with the increasing casualness of dress. After being in several period plays and developing an interest in vintage clothing, I now much prefer the elegance and style of clothing from the period 1930-1966 and almost my entire wardrobe reflects this. Still, the young ladies I have costumed have not always been as enamored as Beth or I with the charms of girdles and gloves. Does anyone have any tips or sources about helping relatively inexperienced actresses (college and community theatre) to become mentally comfortable with the unfamiliar feel and restrictions of this kind of clothing? How much practice is necessary? Any particular techniques, sources, or pep talks you'd recommend? Thank you, Suzanne ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:22:52 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Dressing like ladies Perhaps you could give them a list of (good) period movies to watch, ones with interesting dialogue and plot as well as good costuming. Yes, I know such things are few and far between. But there's nothing like a good movie to get someone (me, anyway) interested in the society and time during which the movie takes place. Drea Leed *****Zona Gaudeamus***** On Wed, 8 Mar 1995 Tiepolo2@aol.com wrote: > Beth wrote: > > I was in "The Subject Was Roses", which is a play that takes place just after > WW2. My costumes included hats, girdles, and high heeled platform shoes. I > was a different person! In deed, it is my opinion that the motion of pulling > off gloves when taking off a coat (or whatever) is one of the most feminine > and sexy motions ever shaped by dress. Although I am a very big fan of jeans > and tshirts, > I think a great deal of , er, atmosphere has been lost by the increasing > casualness of women's dress, even that of professionals > > > I agree with Beth completely that although the comfort and convenience of > modern clothing is wonderful, something extremely valuable has been lost with > the increasing casualness of dress. After being in several period plays and > developing an interest in vintage clothing, I now much prefer the elegance > and style of clothing from the period 1930-1966 and almost my entire wardrobe > reflects this. Still, the young ladies I have costumed have not always been > as enamored as Beth or I with the charms of girdles and gloves. Does anyone > have any tips or sources about helping relatively inexperienced actresses > (college and community theatre) to become mentally comfortable with the > unfamiliar feel and restrictions of this kind of clothing? How much practice > is necessary? Any particular techniques, sources, or pep talks you'd > recommend? > > Thank you, > > Suzanne > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:16:37 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Actresses As both a costumer and an actress and someone who wears Historic costumes on a regular basis, I feel that I can commit on this thread. I have found that the sooner I can get my actors in to "period" pieces (boots, rehearsal skirts, corsets, etc.) the more comfortable they are moving in them and the better they look on stage. God forbid that I have to put someone into a train. The clothing really does make a difference to how you move and carry your self. I have found though, that the longer someone has worked in "period clothing" it is easier for them to make the transitions into almost any period easier. --Kathy B --Katrinn ----------------------- From: MLHardy@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:36:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Dressing like ladies I was wondering do any of you ladies wear period clothing on an everyday occurence. Like Tasha Tudor, I believe she like to wear pioneer clothing. The bonnets and so forth. I too, think that the respect for women has gone down hill since casual clothing. It seems the tighter the fit the better. And those thong bikinis.....I'm in fairly good shape, I've had three kids but I'm still around 125 and I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those. And I'm 27. I love the old dresses from 16th century on up to the Victorien era. I'm not sure I'd like not having running water tho.... Michelle Hardy in DE ----------------------- From: Lonnie D Harvel Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:54:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Consider me interested as well. (Historic Costume Web Site) I will even help with the html if you would like. ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Thu, 09 Mar 95 12:04:38 EST Subject: Re[2]: Actresses I agree with Kathy B (Katrinn) who like to get her actors into period clothing asap so they can get used to the feel and movement of the clothes. I teach and perform period dance (from the Renaissance on up) and one of the things I emphasize is how clothing affects the way you move when dancingl. Women dance and move in different way when wearing trains, for example. A good book on the subject is "The Wearing of Clothes" -- I've forgotten the author's name, but could probably dredge it up. It really is helpful about how people walked and moved in different historical times. It's ensured me of not doing terrible things to myself or my clothing when walking up the stairs wearing a houppelande that is a foot longer than I am. I'm sure there's a librarian or archivist out there who can find the citation on the book. Any takers? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: ShesaLibra@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:28 -0500 Subject: 2 questions....... 1) why can't I attach files on mail I send you? 2)what's a net.viking and why do they like me so much? Andrea says Hi ----------------------- From: DBROWNE@ucs.indiana.edu Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 12:03:28 EST Subject: Re[2]: Actresses Kathleen mentioned a book entitled "The wearing of clothes." It appears that it's been re-issued, as here's the OCLC record: ACCESSION: 32020268 | AUTHOR: Green, Ruth M. | TITLE: The wearing of costume : | the changing techniques of wearing clothes and how to move in | them, from Roman Britain to the Second World War / | PLACE: London : |PUBLISHER: Safira, | YEAR: 1994 | PUB TYPE: Book | FORMAT: ix, 171 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. --Doug, computer person attached to Kathy B. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 01:34:18 +0800 From: writan@iinet.com.au (Writan Consulting) Subject: Re: Silk >Cookery books recommend spreading a *old* sheet on the >ground and gently knocking the fruit down, asa the only practical way to >pick them. > >Caroline I have a photo of my daughter covered in mulberry juice, wearing nothing but gumboots and a smile. Possibly the only practical way to eat them :). Our mulberry trees (one of the black cultivars) fed several groups of silkworms. Silkworm raising is quite popular in Perth. People who haven't got access to mulberries use lettuce leaves. Perhaps silkworms (who can barely fly) have also been bred to be less discriminating. /anne... -------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:09:22 -0600 From: dssweet@Okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question This was accidently sent only to me, when it was obviously meant for the list. I'm not the person who volunteered to do the web site, but I certainly look forward to utilizing it. Deborah Sweet ________ Forward Header ________________ Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Author: Lonnie D Harvel at SMTP Date: 3/9/95 10:54 AM Consider me interested as well. (Historic Costume Web Site) I will even help with the html if you would like. ----------------------- End of Volume 255 -----------------------