From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 18:45:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 257, 3/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 257, March 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Roman bras The right amount of excerpted text Fitting a back laced bodice Question and answers: Origin of "cutting the apron strings" Steel corset covers? Fitting corsets Victorian petticoats Combine h-costum and vintage? ISO Books on Anglo-Saxon costume ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:12:38 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Re: Roman Bras On Wed, 8 Mar 1995 LissThor@aol.com wrote: > The exercise band described is pretty much it as far Roman bras go, the only > other support like garment were the leather or cloth bands they sometimes > wore, you've probably seen them - they go around the body just below the > breasts then cross in between and over the shoulders. As for a garment that > no one took off even during sex, that doesn't ring a bell. Maybe it's > christian era Rome, most Republic and Empire ladies were *not* modest in that > particular way. That sort of shamefaced modesty didn't happen unitl much > later. > > --Melissa, ex-lurker, Mom and spinner. > As the book *The Mother Tongue* put it we entered an era of prudity aka Victorian. - Rhodry ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Re: Watch that included text, please! On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Diane Barlow Close wrote: > So please delete excessive text from your posts when doing follow-ups. Thanks! > -- > Diane Close > close@lunch.engr.sgi.com But please leave enough so other people know what you are talking about. Confused too many times before by not knowing what the reply was to to understand the reply! - Ruth Ann ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 18:42:31 EST Subject: Re: Bodice question ( yet another) In reply to Chantal's queries about bodices: Boning in a back lacing bodice should go at the edge of the center back and on the other side of the eyelets/grommets, etc. for reinforcement. If you don't want to use boning (the springy metal boning, rather than the rigid stuff is more comfortable), I suggest belting. It is the stuff that belts are made over (around?). It's stiff, but not metal, and it holds grommets like a champ. You can sew over it too. Comes in a variety of widths. Probably stiffened cardboard or something like that. I would suggest using it only in something that's not going to be thrown in the washing machine. The book is "Elizabethan Costume" (I think that's the name) by Winter and Schultz or maybe Schultz and Winter. Janet Winter Anderson (of Raiments) would know since she's the Winter. I believe it was done originally for the California RenFaires. I've gotten a lot of use out of it. Janet, are you out there? Have I got any of this right? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: TWOSEW@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:56:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Need Help from all!!!!!!! I work at the Francis Land House, Virginia Beach, Va. . Which is dated 18th c. We need research on the words we are using in our interpertation when we discuss "cutting the apron strings". We have been challenged on this story and need your help. We interpertate it as when a child is old enouth not to be tied to the mother she would cut her apron strings and they would remain short until there was another child that needed to be attached. Please let me know if you know of printed sources that would help. Also printed sources for the drop-skirt. We are saying that the cord in the petticoat is for safety so that you could drop your skirt incase of fire at the hearth. We live in a historic meca and need to be as correct as we can. Thank you for all your help in advance, Your most humble and obedient servant, Nancy Marx TWOSEW@aol.com ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:25:14 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: Re: Elizabethan Corsets On Fri, 10 Mar 1995, Lassman, Linda wrote: > > In order to ensure that this problem didn't arise again, I was thinking about > using a variation on the duct tape dressform to create a corset pattern: use > duct tape over a snug teeshirt (possibly with a taped-in busk) to create the > proper corsetted silhouette, then mark the top and bottom edges, busk area > and unboned bosom area, and cutting up the centre back for the lacing. > > Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Does anyone have any better suggestions or > experiences that they could share on this topic? > > - Linda Lassman > Winnipeg, Manitoba My opinion? Don't do it..The duct tape method tends to smash things that don't want to be smashed and even if you want to create that kind of look, it tends to smash unevenly. I used this method for my first dress and I am still having problems with breast placement in the silly thing. Just my opinion... Kerri Potratz Lady Hrosvitha die Liedweberin USD**kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 22:23:45 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Apron strings There is a very charming portrait which includes a little girl with leading strings in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion: 1560-1620_. That is one of the most obvious early form of "apron strings" or "leading strings". At least in the 16th century, these were sewn onto the backs of the children's clothes. I'm sure that you can trace similar things forward to the 18th century. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 09:39:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Kat writes: >> Some even had iron bars (although these were said to be uncomfortable). Although we have a couple of iron corsets (which often end up as examples of corsets from the middle ages and renaissance" in costuming books) << I might point out that, in almost all cases, iron corsets were actually iron corset covers, used to cover a fabric corset and poroduce a certain effect. Catherine Medici's court used them extensively--her requirement that all ladies of the court be laced as tightly as she produced many interesting variations. And she readily enjoyed these iron covers. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Elizabethan Corsets Re: Constructing a form for corset-making: There is a gentlemen in Holland who uses plaster casts to make corsets. Seems a great idea, since it is a perfect replication of one's form. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 12:06:07 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: Elizabethan Corsets Want two pfennigs from another corner? I've made a number of Elizabethan-style back-lacing corsets for myself and others, mostly from the Schultz & Winter patterns, and find that the easiest way to fit it is to put an already-made corset - even a flawed or wrong-sized one - on the victim/subject/lady in question, lace the thing up, then pin pattern-paper or newspaper to the edges and draw on this with felt-tip pen to indicate the correct seamline/edge/silhouette. I used this approach to get a better-fitting second corset from my misfit first effort at a time when I had no second pair of hands to help me, and have continued from there. For this purpose, a too-small starter corset works better than a too-big one (my own size 8, 34C corset has served as a base for everything up to size 16, 44D) but when I've had to fit someone smaller than myself, I fold both back edges under along a likely bone line and stitch temporary laces in (around the bone and across the gap) using a needle and quadrupled carpet thread. Holds long enough for the purpose. Paper pinned on top of this reduced version takes the pattern. I usually try to make the armhole cutouts larger/farther forward than I think necessary, since pinching there seems one of the most uncomfortable forms of misfit. I try to leave at least 1" of gap in the back of the finished corset, to allow for both cloth-stretching and body-flexion. Like Kathleen suggests, I use belt stiffener (it's some form of interfacing-type plastic, mine is 1" wide) between a pair of bones for each back edge. All my corsets have been tabbed at the waist, since this helps transfer the weight of 8-yard cartridge pleated skirts to the hips where it belongs. I tend to alternate bones of spring-steel with strapping tape boning (the ends filed and dipped in aquarium sealer - they look like big unbent bobby pins, and don't poke through nearly as easily - then painted with Rustoleum) since plain spring-steel doesn't seem to provide enough bust support for the line I want. At Williamsburg, Kathleen and I saw a nice finishing touch - the corsets there were flat-lined and the seam edges zig-zagged, then the top and bottom edges were bound with 1" strips of Ultrasuede. I aim to try that, the next ultrasuede suit I see at Goodwill. Good luck, Linda! Lynn mice, beef jerky and fabric do mix, but not in the same drawer... ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Mar 95 20:28:36 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Petticoats and vintage list >Surely the period solution was a _short_ petticoat rather than no >petticoat? I wasn't suggesting wearing no petticoat. A floor-length (or better, slightly above) one (or two) does fine. The knee-length petticoats were worn in addition to long ones. Actually, people often _did_ walk, and even dance, dragging a long skirt train; however, I prefer to not to rip my clothes. >Some Victorian underskirts were designed to be seen. These were underskirts rather than lingerie, and were made in dress-weight fabrics that coordinated with the dress. Late 19th-century lingerie petticoats are often highly decorated. However, a lady would have to be careful not to expose the hems too blatantly. A good deal of the decoration is well above the hem and meant for the enjoyment of the wearer, rather than chance spectators. About Diane giving up maintaining the vintage list--this impels me to make a suggestion I've had in mind for a long time. The vintage list has been highly inactive for many months. I suspect the reason is not that no one is interested in vintage clothes, but that they are not conducive to much discussion. List members seldom have anything to sell and if they do, probably find it easier to sell it locally. Listings for stores are not very helpful to people living outside driving distance. Other questions that have occasionally cropped up--how to restore this or that, where vintage items can be worn, what kind of vintage tail coat would be suitable for Civil War reenactment--have also cropped up on h-costume. In fact, more frequently. So my proposal is: What about simply merging the two lists? That is, transferring the vintage addresses over to h-costume, and changing the charter of h-costume slightly to explicitly allow discussion of vintage clothes? Possibly even for-sale notices, since (a) very few are posted and (b) possibly h-costume members would be interested? Fran Grimble ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:26:02 -48000 From: Luanne Cupp Subject: Re: Petticoats and vintage list [petticoat trimmed...] > About Diane giving up maintaining the vintage list--this impels me to make a > suggestion I've had in mind for a long time. The vintage list has been > highly inactive for many months. [...] > So my proposal is: What about simply merging the two lists? That is, > transferring the vintage addresses over to h-costume, and changing the > charter of h-costume slightly to explicitly allow discussion of vintage > clothes? Possibly even for-sale notices, since (a) very few are posted and > (b) possibly h-costume members would be interested? > > Fran Grimble > Sounds like an excellent idea to me! Luanne Cupp ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: No thanks to vintage list here. Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:23:04 -0800 (PST) > About Diane giving up maintaining the vintage list--this impels me to make a Someone else has volunteered to take over the list, so it isn't dead yet. It will be transferred to another site and maintained as an active list there. > Other questions that have occasionally cropped up--how to restore this or > that, where vintage items can be worn, what kind of vintage tail coat would > be suitable for Civil War reenactment--have also cropped up on h-costume. > In fact, more frequently. > > So my proposal is: What about simply merging the two lists? That is, > transferring the vintage addresses over to h-costume, and changing the > charter of h-costume slightly to explicitly allow discussion of vintage > clothes? Possibly even for-sale notices, since (a) very few are posted and > (b) possibly h-costume members would be interested? All we get on the vintage list, when it comes to for-sale ads (which is mostly what is sent to that list) is spam-type scam vintage ads with a few real ones thrown in every once in a while. I am most definitely AGAINST combining vintage with h-costume and refuse to allow that type of lowest-common denominator ad junk to fill this list. H-costume is for *reproduction* clothing and not existing clothing. I don't mind the occasional questions about restoring stuff that comes through h-costume, but I certainly don't want to see the type of traffic that predominates on vintage to come through here too. They are two completely different audiences with only minimal crossover and they should and will be kept separate. Sorry, Fran, but the answer is still no. Besides, we don't need any more additional traffic here -- it's high enough as it is. Vintage folks who do follow the list and appreciate the small amount that it does have to offer, greatly appreciate the fact that vintage is low volume -- they would most definitely NOT want to be part of the high volume traffic here. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 05:51:27 -0500 To: Kat@grendal.rain.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question >> While I have seen references to the lacing requirements of Catherine's court, I have not seen references or proof that the iron corsets were actually used there. Could you give me your references. I'm always on the lookout for solid information on corseting. << On page 75 of William Berry Lord's "Freaks of Fashion: The Corset and the Crinoline" (1868), the following is written: "During the reign of Queen Catherine de Medici, to whom is attributed the invention of these contrivances [steel corset covers], they became great favorites, and were very much worn, not only at her court, but throughout the greater part of the continent." This 1993 reprint is available through R.L. Shep, Mendocino, CA. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 22:12:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Well kate, I have no other source; however, a book written in 1868 should hold some credence, as the author lived closer to the era. There are no references in this reprinted version, hence no place to further follow up. Sorry. I guess I'll accept the teriary reference, as a author was well respected in his time and field. Sorry I cannot be of further assistance. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:38:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Steel corset covers I have done a great deal of research into Renaissance corsetry, and have NEVER found any reference to steel corset covers, or found any mention of them in primary sources from the period. I would be EXTREMELY suspect if the only reference I'd found to them was in a 1868 source. The Victorians were notorious for MAKING UP facts that fitted their personal notions, often inventing sources that did not exist. (For example, the entire boondoggle about tarot cards being an ancient form of divination/secret society code system dating from ancient Egypt was perpetuated by Victorian occultists who just felt it made sense and gave them a legitimacy that they wanted very badly. There is absolutely no documentary evidence of their existence before the 14th c. in Italy, where they were PLAYING CARDS!) Unless I could find a primary source that stated, even second hand, that bit about Queen Catherine de'Medici, I wouldn't believe it. After all, the Victorians gave us most of our incorrect, pre-conceived notions about the Middle Ages and Renaissance (the chastity belt, for example, is a Victorian invented "fact"), which modern researchers are STILL debunking and discrediting. I have seen many illos of the one famous steel corset, most of which explain it as having been an appliance for someone who was physically deformed (which I can believe). If these so-called steel corset covers had existed and were as common as your Victorian source seems to imply, certainly more would have survived to modern times, considering their durable nature and inability to be re-used as something else (like armour pieces). Just my $.02 worth. Denise Zaccagnino known as Lady Deonora Ridenow in the SCA ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:26:00 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: Need Help from all!!!!!!! >I work at the Francis Land House, Virginia Beach, Va. . Which is dated 18th >c. We need research on the words we are using in our >interpertation when we discuss "cutting the apron strings". We have been >challenged on this story and need your help. We interpertate it >as when a child is old enouth not to be tied to the mother she would cut her >apron strings and they would remain short until there was another child that >needed to be attached. Please let me know if you know of printed sources that >would help. Also printed sources for the >drop-skirt. We are saying that the cord in the petticoat is for safety >so that you could drop your skirt incase of fire at the hearth. Hmmm. We also re-enact 18th century. We repeatedly say that the apron strings were the only thing which served as closure for some garments, such as the bed gown. How ever do you get an apron to stay on without apron strings? Or perhaps you mean that "short" is what I consider a normal length, and "long" is longer yet. And I"ve been taught that the cord in the petticoats is for sizing, so that one size truly does fit all. Including pregnancies. I don't find that it would be particularly fast to drop my skirts. For one thing, I am wearing 3 or 4 of them, each on a separate cord. For another, a properly dressed lady has a jacket of some sort, which usually extends to mid hip level, and is covered by an apron. These both cover the skirt ties, and would make it difficult to rapidly remove the skirts, tie cords or no tie cords. In short, I've never heard of the "safety" reason, and I find it hard to fathom, from my own experience in wearing the skirts. ----------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Apron strings Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:56:28 -0500 (EST) There is a great book on children called, "Yesterday's Children: Antiques and History of Childcare" by Sally Kevill-Davies. Woodbridge, Suffolk: illustrated with existing pieces and portraits. This press is pretty well distributed in the U.S. so you should be able to get a copy on inter-library loan. It includes chapters on kids clothes and toddler walking devices back to the 17th century. As for skirt drawstrings being a fire-safety feature, there are 19th century references to ladies burning up due to contact with fire which I though might have been more common in the 19th century due to both the widening of skirts but more the increase in thinner cottons that may burn more easily than heavier fabrics. I always thought the drawstring was so that you could keep the same garment through changes of weight and size (as in pregnancy). Anyone else have an opinion? I don't think you could get out of a drawstring skirt fast enough to keep from burning up since you have so much over and around it anyway (aprons, over and underskirts, stomachers, some of which may be pinned together.) Marsha > To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: Re: Need Help from all!!!!!!! > > I work at the Francis Land House, Virginia Beach, Va. . Which is dated 18th > c. We need research on the words we are using in our > interpertation when we discuss "cutting the apron strings". We have been > challenged on this story and need your help. ----------------------- From: DCROSS@bentley.edu Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Vintage List Discussion of vintage clothes sounds ok, but please, no sales ads. I get enough of those elsewhere! -Denise ----------------------- From: AlisounF@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:07:05 -0500 Subject: I made a mistake Regarding my recent inappropriate public comments, I would like to make public apology to Ms. Close and Ms. Miller. It was not my intention to cause offense. P. LaPointe ----------------------- From: Kimberly Subject: Books etc. for Anglo-Saxon costumes? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:14:32 -0500 (EST) Hello! A friend of mine and I are trying to make some costumes. We want to be as accurate as possible but we attend a Technological University and the library is less then wonderfully stocked in books that'll help us. So... does anyone out there have any suggestions for books that we can get on interlibrary loan? Anything with good pictures, descriptions and -these would be especially good! - sketches of patterns for Anglo-Saxon English costumes for anything from the 10th to the 12th century would be nice. (She wants 12th century, I want 10th or 11th.) If you know of any good patterns that we could order that didn't cost too much we'd appreciate that too. Basically anything that you think would help us. On similar lines... I was looking at the files about corsets. There was a lot of good information there but I wasn't able to find anything about where to get basic patterns for them. Could anyone point me in the right direction? I would like to make one but am not sure about where to start. I apologize if this has been covered recently - I've been on spring break. Thanks in advance! Kimberly Wegner kjwegner@mtu.edu ----------------------- End of Volume 257 -----------------------