From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 15:46:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 261, 3/24/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 261, March 24, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Renaissance quilting/cotton batting Whereis the medieval women's mailing list? Metal corset covers? Proper underwear for 18th C Court gown Hacking vents Renaissance cotton references Proper fabrics for different eras Anyone going to USITT? Origins of pantyhose/pantyhose 35th anniversary Question: 18th C sleeves ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:02:01 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Renaissance Quilting On Wed, 15 Mar 1995 drickman@state.de.us wrote: > Regarding your inquiry into a fugitive dye to mark a cotton quilt, shouldn't > you be asking yourself first why you are making a cotton quilt for the > Renaissance era? After all, while cotton was around in that era, it was > pretty rare compared with wool and linen. I have an 18th century quilt made > mostly of a green colored glazed wool. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to > the history of quilts, but most of the earliest quilts I've seen, are "whole > cloth" quilts, made by seaming the selvedges of the same colored fabric > together, stuffing, then quilting. Most of these early quilts were of wool > or linen, stuffed with unspun wool, I should think. There are some wonderful > books out on the history of quilts and quilting. Perhaps you could find an > actual Renaissance quilt, if one exists, or one of the earliest known quilts > and replicate it in the proper fabric, rather than cotton. The above questions regarding materials are certainly pertinent ones. Perhaps I can add a few data points. There is a mid-14th century French garment, generally referred to as "the pourpoint of Charles of Blois" that is basically a quilted jacket. While this may not shed light on the outer materials used in bed quilts, the wadding is cotton, and it is my understanding from other reading (in references not as easy to lay hands on) that this was a common early use for cotton in Europe before actual cotton cloth was widely available. (see Payne "History of Costume" p.180) This is not to suggest that other types of wadding would not also have been common. For an example of a quilted coverlet, there is an exquisite example in "The Art of Embroidery" (by Marie Schuette & Sigrid Mueller-Christensen, pl.169) from Sicily ca.1400. The quilting is pictorial, with closely spaced rows in the background and the design motifs being padded to stand out. (Unfortunately, I didn't note down details of the materials but only kept a photocopy of the article itself in my files for future reference. The fabric is plain white, so linen is a good bet.) Heather Rose Jones ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 16 Mar 95 10:37:00 GMT Subject: Question Gretchen Sorry to send this to the list, I tried your personal address and my end did not recognise the name! You recently mentioned a Medieval Women's mailing list - I would be very interested to receive details, if you have them available. At present I do not have full access to the Internet, so find it difficult to find out about these things - still, I should be free soon! Thanks in advance Caroline ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:29:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Metal "corset covers" Fran writes that steel corsets could not be "covers'. In the standard sense, they are NOT, and no one suggested that they were. The term was used for want of a better term--sorry for the confusion.. So let's call them corset "casings". They were used, not as constricting devices, but merely was decorative accessdories. The holes allowed the corset to be seen underneath.... I have recently referred to FOUR such "garments" being depicted in books--that's three more than one! As for the impossibility of a 13" waist--you are mistaken. One example is Ethyl Granger, whose waist WAS constricted to 13"--and in the 1930's. I know several ladies who have trained their waists NOW to 16" (and they are taller than you). All it takes is a professionally-fitted corset and adherence to a regimen that includes proper diet and exercise. Sorry if you are tired of corset covers--just don't read those notes. Others find them interesting. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:29:22 -0500 Subject: Re: a find This "18th century European court dress" may be a reproduction. If it were not, it probably wouldn't be wearable, since it was not preserved properly. Anyway--a bra? Why would one want to compromise the authenticity of the period gown with a brassiere? Have a corset fitted, which supported the breasts before brassieres. If you need sources, I have a lengthy list, including international sources. Be most pleased to help. Sound like an exciting find in any case! Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 8:21:30 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: Renaissance quilts Regarding Subject: Re: a find >This "18th century European court dress" may be a reproduction. If it were >not, it probably wouldn't be wearable, since it was not preserved properly. If it really WERE an original (not a reproduction), I would hope it could be donated to a good museum, and not worn at all. There are too few garments left from the 18th century, to subject them to actual wearing. Victorian garments are another matter. Can you tell if the fabric is modern? It would be reassuring to know that it's a reproduction. >Anyway--a bra? Why would one want to compromise the authenticity of the >period gown with a brassiere? > >Have a corset fitted, which supported the breasts before brassieres. >If you need sources, I have a lengthy list, including international sources. > Be most pleased to help. > Kindest Regards, > Thomas B. Lierse > Staylace@aol.com I agree whole-heartedly. A bra will NOT do the gown justice, and will change the whole appearance. And a corset is fun! (once in a while, you know ... not with one's everyday blue jeans) (yes, I'm female.) Make sure you get an 18th century corset, not Victorian, as the shape is quite different. You will feel like a different person (that's the fun of it) and your movement and carriage will change accordingly. Unfortunately, I _don't_ know where to get corsets made (we all make our own), so I'd suggest you take up this offer for a list of sources! Were you in the Chicago area, I'd help you fit and make your own, but it might be much easier to order one. <========================================================> Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 16 Mar 95 15:37:00 GMT Subject: Authenticity Could I suggest a slightly different viewpoint from David's very good comments? Cotton in the renaissence period was a *luxury* fabric - I have seen references to it being as expensive as silk. Linen, on the other hand, was much cheaper - the reverse of todays position. So, I think it is acceptable to use cotton (as linen-lookalike as possible to the weight/style originally used for that purpose) and *say* that it is linen. I think this is a more sensible solution than to demand everyone uses expensive linen (in a weight difficult to come by, in the UK at any rate) for smocks and shirts (most linen in this country seems to be heavier/coaser than one wants next to the skin). So, perhaps this Quilt should be made of cotton - but tell the public it is linen? The only technique for pattern-transfering I have seen referred to was pricking and pouncing with chalk. By the way, the pricking of patterns for embroidery was probably not done by the embroiderer, but by a professional limner (who got paid reasonably well for this job) but how this fits in with having to have it repricked frequently, I don't know. Another plea - could we *please* finish with this blasted red herring of iron corsets - or whatever they are. We are just going round in circles, proving nothing to those who get a thrill from the idea, and won't listen to counter-arguments. Can we please move onto new subjects (preferably ones which do not excite the more purient and salacious amongst us?), as several others have asked? Caroline ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:22:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Authenticity Why is it "purient and salacious" to discuss corsets and their history?. No one here objected to the discussion of sanitary napkins and the like, nor does there seem the be a problem with petticoats and other undergarments. Some of you ladies seem to have hidden agendas and are constantly on the attack. I wonder why. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:22:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Metal "corset covers" I'm sorry Betsy--I did not miss your point--the point is just plain invalid. The four steel corsets I cited are in NO WAY the same corset. They are not even remotely alike in appearance. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:35:49 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Cotton(Ren.Quilts) I just happen to have information about the use of cotton in Pre-1600 Western Europe. I found a very facinating book good 2ndary source with lots of primary source quotes and good bibliography. Mazzaoui, Maureen Fennell THE ITLIAN COTTON INDUSTRY IN THE LATER MIDDLE AGES 1100-1600 Cambridge University Press, Cambridge 1981 ISBN 0 521 23095 0 p.89:" The heavier grades of cotton fabrics, including flannelettes and quilted textiles which provided warmth without weight, served as satisfactory subsitutes for cheap woolens in apparel and bed furnishings." I even have a reference to "corded cotton", so all you that use cotton in your SCA costuming take heart. Hope this helps. --Kathy B. --Katrinn ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:52:37 -0500 From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: a find <>I can find <>low-cut bras, but they are low in the center, not all across the front. <> If you have had this problem before, could you please drop me a <>line and let me know how you solved it? Any ideas? <>--Molly I did actually find a square-neckline bra! The straps are set very far to the sides (on the edge of the armpit), and the cups are cut low all the way across. I think it's a Bali bra, but I can check when I get home. I bought it to wear under a wench bodice that I hadn't had time to fit correctly. The other option might be the stick-on demi-cup breast supporters you can find in lingerie stores. They're meant for backless dresses, but I think they would work in this case. They're simply crescent shaped stiffened fabric with a light adhesive, and they go on the underside of your breasts to hold them up. ...eliz ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 12:18:29 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: Renaissance quilts Regarding Caroline's comments on cotton lookalike fabrics, this may be acceptable in a quilt, but there are two schools of thought on substituting lookalike fabrics, and they are well demonstrated by two living history parks in New England. The first is Old Sturbridge Village. When Jessica Nichol was costume and textile curator there, she told me that in the era they interpret, 1830s, cotton had not yet supplanted linen in clothing. Virtually all of the original petticoats, chemises, shortgowns, sunbonnets and daycaps, not to mention men's shirts, etc. that she showed me in the collection, were of linen. Bedding, too, was of linen. But in living history situations there, cotton was substituted. This may have had something to do with cost, but it mostly had to do with the practicality of asking paid interpreters wash the clothing they were issued at home. Few of them would have the time, knowlege or concern to wash and iron linen properly. The silks and woolens they used, too, were mostly blends, again,for practicality. It worked well enough but, to even my less than trained eye, the cottons lacked the lustre of linen, the satins lacked the "hand" of silk and the wool blends just didn't tailor into gentlemen's coats the way a superfine does. The other example is Plimoth Plantation. Not too many years ago, their costume staff decided something was wrong with how their costumes looked. Their patterns were all copied from Janet Arnold and other fine sources, their research was getting better and better, but still, something was wrong. Janet Arnold once told me that she was invited to take a look and could see the problem in an instant. They were using cotton where they should have used linen. "It just didn't _hang_ correctly!" she says. My own impression is that now that Plimoth has switched to linen, the costumes do hang correctly. They also are also very wrinkled, because that is what linen does. Plimoth Plantation has almost the same sort of costume policy as Old Sturbridge Village: paid interpreters are issued their costumes and are responsible for their upkeep. In fact, many interpreters could do a much better job of washing and ironing, even by 17th century standards. But the point is, they look _correctly_ slovenly because they are using the right fabrics. Personally, my vote is with the folks at Plimoth Plantation. Now, the hang of a quilt is not as important as that of a petticoat, but if it is a question of using linen or cotton in a quilt, why not use wool? By the way, the folks at Plimoth have come up with some reasonably-priced sources of linen. David drickman@state.de.us p.s. Whatever happened to the woman from SCA who started all this? I have a feeling I may just be preaching to the choir. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:07:45 +0800 From: Linda.McAllister@Eng.Sun.COM (Linda McAllister) Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts > > When working with living history groups, including the original inquirer's > group, the Society for Creative Anachronism, I have found that the great > tendency of reenactors is to use cotton whenever they can because it is cheap > and familiar. How often have I heard the refrain "It was around then, so they > could have used it," whenever inappropriate materials or styles need to > excused. The point is, cotton did exist then, it was used in at least one > pourpoint as wadding, but was it _typical_? It is really a matter of how > often, or what percentage of Renaissance quilts were composed of cotton, > rather than, "Can I justify making one of cotton because it was around then?" > that is at issue. I don't remember the source, and it's probably apochryphal anyway, but I'm following my grandmother's policy of not letting facts stand in the way of a good story: Using the "It was around then, so they could have used it" philosophy, one can argue that blue jeans and a t-shirt is appropriate Renaissance garb. After all - cotton was known and used for clothing - knitting was known, and there are existing examples of extremely fine knitted materials from the period - indigo was cultivated and used as a dye - woodblock techniques could be used for printing patterns on fabric (and possibly were, I think. I know the technique existed in the 1700s) - the basic garment shapes - t-tunic and trousers - were widely used Yours for putting the "Creative" back in SCA, Linda McAllister PS - Skulls and flowers were often depicted in Dutch paintings of the time. So I can even wear my Greatful Dead t-shirt to a SCA event! ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: USITT Hi Anybody going to USITT? See you there! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 14:21:40 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: Renaissance quilts Hello, I was about to climb back up on my little soap box after recieving Kathy B./Katrinn's remarks on the medieval Italian cotton industry when I looked at Linda McAllister's followup on jeans and t-shirts as Renaissance costume. She not only put the argument for using materials because they were typical rather than available far better (and with far better humor) than I could. Her anecdote brought to mind a story told to me by Bill Gwaltney of the National Park Service about mountain man reenactors at Bent's Fort using rawhide covers on their beer cans. Her story also points out a subtle, but significant, divide between how individuals go about the business of reconstructing (or reliving) the past. Some will see that cotton was available in Italy in 1100 and assume that that is justification enough to make a quilt or garment from it. Others will note the same historical fact, and then go to the trouble to see if cotton, though available, was the _typical_ fabric used for garments and quilts. This requires more than just finding a few examples of cotton in garments and bedding, or even the existence of a cotton industry in Italy. It requires reading the authorities who have done significant research on this subject. It is aided by an extensive search for original garments or quilts (or whatever) and, if you are truly serious, some investigation of your own into the literature, art, archaeology, even such original documents as probate inventories, wills, letters, and bills of lading of the time. Only from research of this kind can we begin to say what was typical. And again, I personally believe it is the reenactor's job to interpret the historically typical, and not just what they can find an excuse for. Whoops, I seem to be standing on a soap box. David drickman@state.de.us ----------------------- From: "Pamela C. Rowe" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:20:59 GMT Subject: Origin of pantyhose This may have already been commented upon, but here goes: This morning (March 16, 1995), Susan Stamberg of National Public Radio did a piece on the 35th birthday of pantyhose. She was careful to point out that noone knows the exact day that pantyhose came out, but they were first marketed in the spring of 1960 by Burlington under the original name of "Panti-Legs". There was more, but I didn't catch it all. I have a little bit more info (I was scribbling like mad; I was so glad they preannounced the article), but I'm sure someone could get a transcript of the article from Morning Edition if desired. Hope this helps! -- Pam (prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil) ----------------------- From: Elizabeth Lewandowski Subject: USITT Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 13:46:33 CST I've been skulking on this conversation for several months. And yes, I will be at USITT. I'll be the registrar so look me up (Elizabeth Lewandowski). Have fun and go home when your're tired! ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:25:05 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: 18th C.sleeves I'm constructing (off & on for the last year) an 18th century robe francaise & I'm having a bit of trouble getting the sleeves to sit right. According to the diagrammes in Janet Arnold, th sleeves seem to have been sewn on the inside of the gown (seamed, I mean) & then the top, pleated part prick-stitched down onto the linen lining from the top. Mine seem to be resisting falling into the right shape & I don't want to default to a 20th C set-in sleeve unless I really have to. Any advice from people who've made one would be appreciated. I don't mind doing a bunch of "trial & error" sleeves, this gown is a prototype from inexpensive fabric...I didn't want to cut the "real" stuff until I'd worked out all the construction bugs...I'm also using the Jean Hunnisett book for construction tips. Alison ----------------------- End of Volume 261 -----------------------