From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 262, 3/27/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 262, March 27, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Dying vintage wedding gowns Preaching to the choir? Bodice/corset suggestion Marking quilt patterns Using appropriate fabrics for reenactments Proper underwear for 18th C court gown Reenactment philosophies Addresses and membership info for various Costume societies ISO: Info on period footwear for "must fit" feet Textile museum catalog and membership info "Shelves" in Elizabethan corsets Cotton in historic costume ISO: SCA gear mailing list ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 15:51:28 EST From: Val Elacqua Subject: Dying Wedding gowns From: Val Elacqua I have followed the discussion about dying various types of fabric with interest because I have 32 wedding dresses of various materials from silks to brocades from the 40's -70's (They were a deal $5.00 a piece!)with the hope of using the trmendous laces and volumes of fabric for some costuming purpose. Has anyone dyed a wedding gown successfully (of any fabric) or should I completely give up the idea. I'd appreciate your thoughts. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:06:44 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts On Thu, 16 Mar 1995 drickman@state.de.us wrote: > p.s. Whatever happened to the woman from SCA who started all this? I have a > feeling I may just be preaching to the choir. > Well, I for one have been following this tread with some interest. I'm also in the SCA, but I do theatre as well, and I love working with material in general. :) So you keep right on preaching, David, because you have at least one person listening! ==Lady Vitha== /\ / \/ \ *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* / /\ \ *Lady Hrosvitha die Liedweberin < \/ > *The Proto-incipient Colligum of Svathy Sebestia \ /\ / *Kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu \ \/ / \/ ==If I be waspish, best beware my sting!== Shrew, II.i ----------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 19:12:38 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Bodices/Corsets What about going to a Ren Faire, finding a bodice you like and fits the way you want, paying the outrageously expensive price, wearing it till the boning rips out and turning it into your pattern for future bodices?? Just a suggestion, maybe easier for people who do not have a lot of time or experience. Rhodry ----------------------- From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:30:51 EST10 Subject: Marking quilt patterns Hi everyone, I'm not big into quilting and I certainly don't know how "period" this would be, but a friend of mine who is into quilting uses a very soft pencil to mark lines onto a white cotton quilt that she's working on at the moment - I'm not sure how you would remove the marks, but they may simply wear off. Also, here you can buy dressmaker's chalk that's been made into a pencil and it's available in a variety of colours (pink, blue, white). Again, this may not be period but it should do the job. Hope this helps, Heather aspinall@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 17 Mar 95 09:13:00 GMT Subject: Follow-up points A couple of replies David on Fabric Absolutely - of course people should use the correct fabric. However (sorry) we are in a slightly different position. Kentwell Hall recreations involves unpaid volunteers who provide their own clothes, many of whom work with fires. Apart from a hardcore of volunteers, with varying but improving standards of costume, we have a continual influx of beginners. Our current emphasis (after getting the costumes right) is on getting people to use natural fibres for the outer garments - particularly wools, because of the safety aspects. We still get the odd person using manmade fibres/bad mixes, but cannot lay the law down, as the organisations you are referring to evidently can. I use linen whenever I can find/afford it which is often sheets from charity shops (I think US calls them thrift shops). Its just that if you do have to use cotton, at least publicly it should be called linen. Re: Creating a bodice Sorry, my previous message on this assumed someone starting out at the beginning. If you already have a bodice that fits, or have found one, then of course use that as the pattern - thats what I do. Only imposing on friends once means you are more likely to keep them! Re: Find A bra under an 18th century dress would only really do for fancy-dress. If you want to know how the dress was worn, how people (women) moved and felt, then the correct underwear is essential. Caroline ----------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 9:36:10 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Follow-up points Hello, Regarding authentic fabrics, I think we are about ready to wind this one up. I spent this morning answering several personal notes, the sum of which seemed to tell me that there are many ways that people express their love of historic dress. Another correspondent kindly let me know that, prior to my recent subscription, there were a series of sharp letters taking positions on opposite sides of the authenticity versus creativity (or practicality) issue. The level of rhetoric apparently reached a fairly bitter stage. I have no interest in seeing that happen again. Just a personal note, to explain a little about my own philosophy. Some years ago I began researching and designing costumes for living history programs in California state parks. These were programs that took place in carefully reconstructed historic sites and whose participants were all volunteers. My own belief is that we do a disservice to the historic structures themselves if our costumes aren't at least as authentic as the buildings themselves. And saying that, I do understand that most of these old forts and missions are wired for electricity and have central plumbing. But, try as I might, I couldn't get the volunteers to wear the carefully researched and correctly constructed costumes I presented to them. The volunteers, mostly White, middle class folks, who had chosen to reenact mission Indians and Mexican vaqueros, all balked at wearing either breechlouts and moccasins or else breeches. At another site I worked with, a Russian fur trade outpost, none of the volunteers, including myself, could speak Russian. It didn't matter how authentic might look, as soon as we opened our mouths, we weren't fooling anyone. Later, after I moved to the East Coast and got to know some of the costumers and curators at the professional living history sites I had so long admired, I found that, while their level of authenticity was far higher than in the West, none of their programs could be considered "perfect." The problem was the human element. At various parks men wore beards and short hair for eras when clean shaving and long queues were the norm. Eyeglasses were worn by day laborers. Most professional parks require interpreters to purchase their own footgear, so most people purchase the cheapest they can get away with. And then, everyone wishes to modify their costume to express their individuality. Needless to say, the way a late-20th century person expresses their individuality has little to do with the fads and fashions of earlier eras. I have seen Chinese pheasant feathers stuck in 17th century caps (when pheasants had not yet been imported into America), bandanas tied pirate-style over the heads of 19th century New England farmers, and so on. I even developed a rule of life about this, and it may do well to conclude this letter with it. "When it comes to living history, there are those who, in their quest for authenticity, use themselves to say something about history; and then there are those who, through their creativity, use history to say something about themselves." It is a subtle but I think significant difference in outlook. As for me, five years after moving to the East Coast to pursue a career in illustration and exhibit design, I returned to California to find costume programs I designed riddled with inconsistencies: rubber-soled sandals and analine-dyed serapes at mission sites; "gunny sacks" gypsy dresses and zipper- sided boots at my Russian fort. Living history is like a garden: when you really work at it, it can look wonderful for a time, but it needs constant attending. I now express my love of history through illustration. Thanks for your time. David. ----------------------- From: Gordon Monson Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 21:58:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Costuming periodicals/magazines Sorry it took me so long to get back with the info; I have gotten way behind on reading my digests. The Costume Society of America c/o Kaye Kittle Boyer 55 Edgewater Drive P.O.Box 73 Earleville, MD 21919 Annual dues are $55. For this you get the annual magazine "Dress" and both national and regional newsletters and announcements of events held in your region. I.e., the world is divided up into several large areas each of which may hold one or more meetings per year. For example, I live in Region V, which is the western continental U.S. and Alaska, Hawaii & Guam. The Costume Society [British] c/o Miss Anne Brogden 63 Salisbury Road Garston, Liverpool LI9 0PH United Kingdom I haven't gotten my renewal for this year yet, so I don't know the current rate. It is something like 17 to 20 pounds for an individual membership. What I do is order the Institutional membership, which gets you two copies of the annual magazine "Costume" and one set of all the newsletters and meeting announcements, and my sister and I split the cost. They don't care if you are really an institution; this is just a name for one out of a menu of options. Replying to: > >From: "Pamela C. Rowe" >Subject: Re: Costuming periodicals/magazines >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 09:58:33 -0600 (CST) > >Shelley, > >I'm interested in joining either or both of these >organizations. Please post any information available, as I >can't be the only one interested. I'm also an oddball who just >likes to *make* historical costume :) (as well as just study >it). ----------------------- From: "Pamela C. Rowe" Subject: Fire safety and natural fibers Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:32:59 -0600 (CST) > Our current emphasis (after getting the costumes right) is on getting > people to use natural fibres for the outer garments - particularly wools, > because of the safety aspects. Caroline, Am I correct in interpreting this as saying that wools are more fire retardant than other fibers? I want to sew and weave for my participation in the SCA, and knowing about the fire retardancy properties of natural fibers would further this purpose. Pam --prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil ----------------------- From: amyc@unr.edu (Amy Coddington) Subject: Shoes for costumes Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:06:53 -0800 (PST) Hello, everyone-- I'm new here, and please forgive me if this has been overly discussed, but the discussion on linen vs. cotton, authenticity vs. availability etc. made me think of a problem of my own. When you're making a costume, and want it as authentic as possible in cut, what do you do for shoes? I've been researching costumes from 1100 to 1900 and there are a couple I will make as soon as I finish drafting a pattern, but I'm not interested in learning shoemaking right now and I'm not willing to pay large sums of money for shoes I may wear once a year. On the other hand, I'm diabetic and must be careful of foot infections, so barefoot is out and I'm wary of mail-order shoes unless they can be returned if they don't fit right. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've seen jazz shoes in dance-supply shops that look pretty close to some models of 18th century shoe (low heel, with laces--I think they may have been children's shoes or at any rate unfashionable). I'm working on a 1770s-1780s gown right now, and I've wondered if they might do. The costumes I work on would be an everyday type, so I don't need fashionable footwear, but it would be nice to have something on my feet that looks right and feels comfortable. Thanks for your help. --Amy Coddington amyc@unr.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 09:34:12 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: textile museum I had a request for info. re: the textile museum catalogue so I thought I would send it to the list for anyone who's interested. The Textile Museum 2320 S Street, NW Washington, DC 20008 202/667-0441 Memberships are $25 for students and $45-50 depending on where you live. But I assume that anyone can request the catalogue and order from it. They have a publications cat. and a "gift shop" cat. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 10:21:39 PDT From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts One of my blackwork embroidery books (source at home) mentions a partially completed piece which has a design stamped on it with hot irons. Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com > I think the most likely method for tracing the quilting pattern >would have been the "prick-and-pounce" one. If you would like to try it, >powdered chalk is sold at good sewing stores for those chalk skirt markers. >It's usually blue, I think. I suspect Clothilde or someone similar also >would stock it. The only other renaissance method of pattern transfer that >I know is drawing the pattern directly onto the fabric in ink, which would >show through the quilting. I think the concept of "disappearing" fabric >inks is fairly modern. > >Karen Walter >walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 11:16:26 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Re: Dying Wedding gowns >From: Val Elacqua >I have followed the discussion about dying various types of fabric with >interest because I have 32 wedding dresses of various materials from silks to >brocades from the 40's -70's (They were a deal $5.00 a piece!)with the hope >of using the trmendous laces and volumes of fabric for some costuming >purpose. Has anyone dyed a wedding gown successfully (of any fabric) or should >I completely give up the idea. I'd appreciate your thoughts. I too am interested in dying wedding gowns, anyone have any success with this? Please forward info to me too. Thanks. Loren dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ----------------------- From: ejp@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: Dying Wedding gowns Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 15:43:51 -0500 Success in dyeing a wedding gown depends largely on your expectactions, materials, and preparation. Some textiles take dye, some don't. If you can live with the different textiles on the gown taking the dye differently, you'll be much happier -- you may well end up with a forest green dress with white netting with pale green lace galloons, for example. You generally need lots of room to dye a wedding dress. An industrial washing machine is ideal, but if you don't have access to one, gauge carefully what will and won't make it in the machine you have. You should prewash the dress in your machine once first -- you'll get lots of useful information that way, like: is the fabric so old it shreds itself? does this dress refuse to behave during the spin cycle? is it simply too big for your machine capacity? Finding out about washer problems with wet fabric sure beats finding out about them with wet *MESSY* fabric. :) If the beads and trims are glued on, pick them off before doing your trial wash, too. Your machine will thank you. The fabric content of the dresses matters, too. The standard burn test documented in every intro fiber/textile book will tell you what sort of dye family will work best for each dress. And finding a dart, pleat, hem, or seam to cut a bit off for a test dye strip with a tiny batch of dye could save you a lot of grief. 32 $5 wedding dresses! < envy > Wherever do you store them? :) Good luck, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ----------------------- From: nielsen@boba.mayo.edu (Ann Nielsen) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:17:32 -0600 Subject: Corset Support Greetings unto the Historic Costuming list from a Lurker! Yes, I've been reading the list now for a month or so, and have enjoyed it. Did change to digest form, though --- came back from a week of vacation and had over 400 messages on my email, most from this list!! ;-) I've been reading the postings on corsets with great interest. There's been one thing that I've not seen (so far on the digest form) that has helped me with my Tudor/Elizabethan corset. It's what I use for support underneath the corset. I was originally introduced to it as a 'banana', or 'shelf'. In extreme cases, when the support 'shelf' was accidently left at home (various reasons), a pair of tube socks was substituted, with a fair amount of success. What it is, is basically a slightly semi-circular, banana-shaped if you will, stuffed tube of cloth, tapered at both ends. I wear it just under my breasts under my corset, and it does three things: 1) it supports my breasts in the corset so they aren't squashed funny (resulting in a breast shape that reaches from about my floating ribs up to just below my collar bone, and at points less than an inch thick...); 2) the support gives my corset the proper 'smooth' look on the outside --- there is still some gentle curving from the breast area, but that seems to fit in with what I've seen in the paintings from that period; and 3) it helps absorb sweat. ;-} I played with a number of 'shelves' until I got it right for me. Mine is about 10" long, tapered at both ends, with the middle having a diameter of about 2". It's slightly curved, and I tacked it to my corset with the curved inner part laying against my ribs. I stuffed it with fiberfill, and it survived numerous washings (not the cat, but it survived the washer). I fitted it by making it, stuffing it, putting it on with the corset, then adding or subtracting fabric length and stuffing until I felt comfortable. Does anyone else use a support shelf with their corsets? I find my corset is much more comfortable now that I have one. Ann Nielsen (aka Lady Therica of Stonegate Manor in the SCA) -- ********************************************************* * Ann Nielsen --'--,--{@ * * nielsen.ann@mayo.edu * * SPPDG Mayo Foundation * * Rochester, MN 55905 * * *** * * The trouble with doing something right the first time * * is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. * ********************************************************* ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:26:19 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Cotton I never intended to inply that cotton was a commonly used fabric during the pre-1600's only that I had found a very good reference to the fact that it was aviable and that it was used by both peasents and nobles. For those of us who do extensive amounts of costuming inb that period of time it was a good find. I also feel that what makes us different is the latutide to use things that are not one-hundred % accurate. The SCA is not a re-enactment groupe such as those located at Williamsburg, but a group that attempts to recreate aspects of a huge time period. I believe that when making a historical re-enactment it is important to be as historically accurate as possiable. It is also much better to do so in an SCA competetion, but when spending the day at a tourney in the heat of the summer it is more practicle to be comfortasble. If cotton was available and was used (if not by everyone, then by some) I say use it. --Kathy B. --Katrinn (not part of the A.P.):-) ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:00:03 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Source of ultra cheap material I just discovered some4thing so wonderful for dress forms etc. Most Laundry services sell used sheets for about a dollar a piece. Hope you guys can use this info. It sure saves a lot of cutting when you can use a piece of fabric thats that wide :0 ------------------------------------------------------ Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:29:11 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Question please post so all can see :) -------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET -------------------------------------------------------- On 16 Mar 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > Gretchen > > Sorry to send this to the list, I tried your personal address and my end > did not recognise the name! > > You recently mentioned a Medieval Women's mailing list - I would be very > interested to receive details, if you have them available. > > At present I do not have full access to the Internet, so find it difficult > to find out about these things - still, I should be free soon! > > Thanks in advance > > Caroline > ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:39:06 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Metal "corset covers" I knew that you had to have a properly fitted corset..and wear it for increasing periods of time. etc. But did not know that the persons diet and/or exercise regime had anything to do with the suscessful training. Please enlighten me..by private e-mail if this is not of interest to others :) --------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET --------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:15:31 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Marking quilt patterns I found the perfect way to mark patterns on material that is period possible no matter how far you go back..and I mean to the caves.. This discussion inspired a dream in the middle of the night and now my neighbors think I buried something in the back yard. That's right folks, DIRT And for a hist orical flair Mix ye fine dark soile withe an like amount of water to produce withal a goodly portion of mudd. Then finely drawne and with an steady hande place the lines upon the clothe. This produces a fine and welle defined patterne to follow and washes welle awaey leavingt no trace :) -------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET -------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:54:11 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts Does anyone know if there is an S.C.A. mailing list like h-costume only covering all sorts of gear? If so please email me how to subscribe. Thanx ------------------------------------------------------ Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- End of Volume 262 -----------------------