From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 18:58:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 265, 3/29/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 265, March 29, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Pantyhose history Current journal citations for Victorian wedding wear Signatures anyone? Indentured servant wear Leg paint Wigs and wiglets Victorian lace Wool suppliers Shoes and lasts Quilts Wigs in "The Madness of King George" ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 10:56:59 EST Subject: Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 259, 3/21/95 Re: comments on pantyhose which are still bouncing around: All I know is that I graduated from high school in Baltimore in 1965 and I had been wearing pantyhose for years before that: I seem to think that 1962 was the year I started to wear them. Perhaps a clothing history book could give the date and clear up the confusion. Or perhaps a hosiery manufacturer would know if anyone has access to some one at such a place. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:59:05 -0600 (CST) From: Helen Mayo Subject: Re: Pantyhose, stockings, etc. On Tue, 21 Mar 1995 Tiepolo2@aol.com wrote: > aware of pantyhose as an option until 1967. I wonder why there was this lag > time between the invention of pantyhose and its widespread adoption? Was > there a technological improvement? Was there a sudden publicity push? Or > did companies suddenly see a market because so many of us were trying so > desperately and futilely to keep our girdles and garter belts hidden under > our skirts? > There's a fascinating and probably unwritten fashion story here, no doubt. Just my two cents worth here. I think we remember skirts in the mid-60's as being shorter than they really were, because they were so *much* shorter than those of the previous 10 years. For example, in looking at my old yearbooks, the skirts in '65-'68 seem to hover a couple of inches above the knee...high and daring, but wearable, with garterbelts, and girdles. (Yes, I remember my Mom and Grandmother saying that running around without a girdle just wasn't "decent") Then, it seems in the later 60's and early 70's is when what we think of as the micro-mini became very common...and pantyhose an absolute necessity. Then again you could make a case that the hemlines rose because, with the invention of pantyhose, they *could* . ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 10:22:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: current journal articles Here are a few citations to recent articles dealing with the mid-Victorian woman: Miller, Beth. "Plentiful Practical Pockets: Original Constructional Techniques." _Civil War Lady_ no. 13 (1995), 6-7,9-10. Includes photographs and diagrams. Gordon, Ruth. "Treasured 'Hair Work'." _Civil War Lady_ no. 13 (1995), 22- 24. (hair jewelry and artifacts) Hughes, Kristine. "A Wedding Fit for a Queen." _Lady's Gallery_, v. 2, no. 5 (1995): 6-7. (Queen Victoria's daughter Victoria, with illustration from fashion magazine) Kincaid, Barbara. "From This Day Forward: The Romance and Splendor of a Victorian Wedding." _Lady's Gallery, v. 2, no. 5 (1995): 20-22. Fowler, Monica Beth. "A Cameo Sampler." _Lady's Gallery_, v. 2, no. 5 (1995): 24-29. (although the illustrations are post-Civil War, the discussion covers the earlier period as well) "Collector's Gallery: Decatur House, Washington, D.C." _Lady's Gallery, v. 2, no. 5 (1995): 41. A selection of wedding fans, including an illustration of an 1850's painted feather fan. Kurella, Elizabeth. "Nineteenth-Century Christening Gowns: A Special Legacy of Lace." _Lady's Gallery_, v.2, no. 5 (1995): 68-71. Not specifically dated. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ From: KTRuby@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:32:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Pantyhose, stockings, etc. I remember a girl in my gym class in 9th grade (1963) had a pair of pantyhose and I was really jealous. I remember they were only available at high-priced department stores and were very expensive (it seems to me they were almost $10.00, which, in 1963 made them impossible for a 14 year old to afford, and my mother wouldn't buy them for me because I ran my nylons almost every time I put them on. When the price came down I started wearing them (1966). With the arrival of the mini skirt, we had no choice. I remember pantihose were precious and expensive. I feel naked without them now! ------------------------------ From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Signatures Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 10:45:00 PST I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I thought I'd bring it up. I apologize if I'm stomping on 'Net toes or breaking some 'Net etiquette that I'm not aware of! Does it bother anyone else that some of the postings that show up on the list have a signature (and I don't mean a clever .sig, the kind that makes me so jealous!--just a name!) and even more don't have a recognizable location (I'm ok with endings like .ca or .uk, but a lot of the other ones--like aol and some of the educational locations--mean less than nothing to me)? I find I generally enjoy the postings that appear on the list, and would like to put _some_ name (even if it's an alias!) to some of the messages which appear. And if I'd like to respond to someone's posting, I'd like to be able to personalize it at least a little. As well, sometimes people ask for or provide information for which their location might be pertinent (ok--and I find it interesting to see where different members of the list live), but the only hint is their ID, which may or may not be comprehensible. If no one else is bothered by this, never mind! Maybe I'm just over-curious! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 11:55:20 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: indentured servants Hello, Regarding Mary Wood's querie about servant clothing, perhaps someone out there is more expert than I am on this subject, but from what I understand, there was no uniform for indentured servants. Rather, both indentured servants and slaves had so few clothes that, when they ran away, they were identified by descriptions of what they were wearing when last seen. "Runaway servant" and "runaway slave" notices published in newspapers are some of our best sources for what kinds of clothing were worn by average people in the 18th and early 19th centuries. You will need to contact historical societies and colleges for specific locales. David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:34:45 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Stockings & wiglets A friend recently cleaned out her 20 year collection of hairstyling magazines from 1967-1987 & gave them to me... I had great fun reading through them. One of the 1967 "Holiday" issues suggested "leg paint" in fuschia, lime & purple, shown in a paisley pattern in the sketch (although I don't know anybody who could paint their own legs paisley & not have it look like kids doodles). This was apparently being marketted by Yardley or some other large company. Did anybody actually do this, even once, or is this just one of theos "fashion magazine only, never saw it on the streets" fashions? THe 1960's magazines also seemed to use at least one hairpiece or wiglet (up to 3 or 4 for fancy hairstyles) in everything they showed. How many people really wore wigs & wiglets that often? I remember my mom having one wig, which she only wore to parties & she didn't like it because it was hot & itchy (but she liked the look of the "perfect hairdo"). Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:35:12 -0800 From: delarorm@sce.com (Ruby de la Rosa) Subject: lace Does any one know where I can purchase some victorian lace? mail order is ok or somewhere in the southern california area i could drive to. Also just a short note to tell you all how much I appreciate all your help. I hope I will be able to help someone real soon too. I have signed on to other lists only to get myself off in a day or two. all everyone seemed to do was fight over every little detail! The comments on panty hose are great! I am remembering way back when! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:40:50 -0800 From: delarorm@sce.com (Ruby de la Rosa) Subject: Re: wool-purchase I hope this company can help some.! r >To:yutzp@panix.com (Earl Klein) >From:delarorm@sce.com (Ruby de la Rosa) >Subject:Re: wool-purchase > >>The following is a list of our prices: >> >>100% Wool Flannel (12 Ounces, 56" Width) >>Colors: Black, red, royal, hunter, olive, plum, camel, navy= $10/yard >>Over 10 yards per color = $9/yard >> >>100% Worsted wool crepe (10/11 ounces, 56" width) >>Colors = White, black, navy, red tones, brown tones, wine tones, taupe >>tones, teal, hunter, royal, purple, olive >>Colors = $15/yard, White = $16/yard >>Over 10 yards per color = $14/yard >>Over 10 yards White = $15/yard >> >>1 yard minimum >>1/8 yard increments >>Short lengths will be shipped double folded, longer lengths are rolled on >>tube. >>$5 shipping fee for under 5 yards >>$7 shipping fee for under 10 yards >>Heavier packages priced accordingly. >>Fabric to be shipped via UPS Ground Regular >>Please allow 2-4 weeks for delivery >> >>Please indicate >>1) What color swatches you would like to see. >>2) A regular mail address at which we can send swatches. >> (We will enclose an order form you can fill out to place an order.) >> >>Thanks! >> >>J. Blum Woolens, Inc. ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:38:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Victorian lace One idea is to check recent issues of a periodical called _The Lace Collector_. I got a free issue a few months ago when I ordered one of their books. On the back page were several pieces for sale, including a very nice looking collar and cuffs set for about $35.00. A subscription costs $20.00 per year--contact Elizabeth M. Kurella, Lace Merchant, P.O. Box 222, Plainwell, MI 49080, (616) 685-9792. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 13:40:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Wiglets I was in grade school in the '60's, but my older sister (14 years older) had falls (long pieces meant to be added only to the back) and attachable sausage curls (both the hanging type, and the type that were piled up and pinned at the crown of the head). I remember how jealous I was (my mother made me keep my hair short because it was "easy to take care of"), and how much I looked forward to being able to have my own when I was "older". Of course, the style had quite passed by then... I also wore stockings with miniskirts. I did not get my first pair of pantyhose ("windowpanes" -- large squares with sheer nylon filling -- a short-lived fad that followed on the heels of the fishnet stocking craze) until '69 or '68. I DO remember having fishnet stockings in every conceivable color (20 or 30 colors -- to match every skirt I had), and the problem of wearing stockings & garter belts with short skirt (I distinctly remember the unpleasant experience of sitting on chairs at school where my skirt was so short my bare upper thighs were on the chair seat while my skirt was decorously pulled down to cover my stocking tops in the front.). I think the panty hose thing was a question of expense (regular price for a pair of fishnet stocking where I got them was 10 pr. for $1 -- pantyhose were over $1 per pair, even when I started to wear them) and rareity -- everyone carried stockings, but only expensive stores carried pantyhose. Of course, pre-pantyhose, we always wore tights in the winter -- who wanted to freeze their legs with mini-skirts and knee-his? Just my $.02 worth... Denise Zaccagnino known as Lady Deonora Ridenow in the SCA ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 22 Mar 95 15:43:00 GMT Subject: Shoes etc Lasts for Shoes Kevin doesn't use lasts for his shoes (16th century) although he would like to, but says they would make life easier rather that it being impossible to make shoes without them. I understand that the key to making shoes with heels over about 1 inch (up to then you can clump the heels) is a shaped piece of metal that runs under the arch of the foot and shapes the sole in front of the heel. If anyone wants the shoe info I have please send snail mail address to the above address and I will send it - if its not too many the company won't mind (know!). Please bear in mind this is welted shoes for the English 16th century - I don't make any promises for any other periods/places. BTW It was odd to see Madelien Pelner Cosman's name crop up. I have used her cookery book 'Fabulous Feasts' on medieval cookery. The text section is very good - full of useful sourced information. The recipes are odder, I suspect useful if you know what you are doing, but I would hesistate to give it to a beginner - which it would apparently be useful for since the recipes are laid out in modern fashion. Has anyone else any views? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:46:48 -0600 (CST) From: Helen Mayo Subject: Re: pantyhose On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Mary Wood wrote: > that no one else has mentioned. My mother brought home some pairs of > stockings that were somewhere in-between. They came in two pieces, > but required no garters to wear. Instead, they attached at the > waist, front and back (with snaps, I think). They must have come out > near the same time as pantyhose,or maybe a little after, because I > remember that having the separate legs meant you didn't have to throw > away a whole pair of pantyhose because one leg had run. They were > interchangable. Does any one else remember this peculiar invention, > or know why it didn't catch on? > I remember that one company, Round the Clock I think, came out with light lycra, "girdle-like" panties with hooks around the leg holes, and hose that had a fish-net like band at the top that the hooks went into. I really liked them, even if I did end up with a hook digging into my thigh occasionally, but they were expensive, and I gave them up in high school when I stopped getting an allowance, and had to clerk to get my spending money. (Then it was Today's Girl pantyhose at .99 a pair, still cheaper than the Round the Clocks, even with if the whole pair got tossed when a leg got a run.) ------------------------------ From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 14:06:15 -0500 Subject: quilts My new quilt books talk about "stripey" quilts from England, and whole cloth quilts, belonging to the rich. You can use sting and spices to make staight lines that disapear on quilts. You can trace a pattern with just a blunt needle and that will stay for hours if undisturbed. Sort of "trace as you go" The batts were often of carded wool, and, later, cotton. Wool quilts are wonderful! NeenH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 13:03:28 -0600 (CST) From: Helen Mayo Subject: Re: Leg Paint On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Alison Kondo wrote: > One of the 1967 "Holiday" issues suggested "leg paint" > in fuschia, lime & purple, shown in a paisley pattern in the > sketch (although I don't know anybody who could paint their > own legs paisley & not have it look like kids doodles). This > was apparently being marketted by Yardley or some other large > company. Did anybody actually do this, even once, or is this > just one of theos "fashion magazine only, never saw it on the > streets" fashions? Talk about bringing back memories! I do remember getting a set of leg paints from my very indulgent Grandmother....a friend and I sat out on the back porch, wanting to painted knees like crazy...and ending up not having a clue as to *what* to paint...the hearts were recognizable at least ;) I can't remember if anyone *really* wore painted knees out in public for dates or anything. In my mind I also associate it with the body-painted sayings from Laugh-In...anyone out there remember how Goldie Hawn got her start?...something you saw on TV, but not in "real" life. ------------------------------ From: longwave@uunorth.north.net (E. Cheung) Subject: Re: Pantyhose, stockings, etc. Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:33:51 -0600 I am new to this newsgroup and already, I have found many subjects of interest. Primarily, my interest is in social cycles, and how they have affected historical costumes. With regards to pantyhose being around so long before gaining acceptance in the 1960s, part of the reason may be because of the baby-boom. A new and younger generation appeared that were willing to try something new. Another reason may be that there was a sexual revolution. How much of a role this played in the minds of young ladies in deciding to wear pantyhose, I do not really know. Pantyhose back then may have been regarded as sexier than stockings. Today, we are quite use to panyhose. I hope this adds some insight to this thread. Ed. /\ /\ /\ / \ / \ / \ / | / | / | The longwave continues . . . / | / | / | / | / | / | From: Edward Cheung / | / | / longwave@mail.north.net / | / | / / |/ |/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 14:46:21 -0700 (MST) From: ZOLLER SHEILA M Subject: Wigs I recently saw the movie "The madness of King George and was interested in the variety of wigs and hair treatments people wore, especilly the men. Can anyone speak with authority about his subject? Was there a protocol? Was a wif preferable to natural hair? Thanks Sheila Zoller ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 17:21:57 EST Subject: Re: Stockings & wiglets To Alison who asks about leg paint & wiglets. I think leg painting was an idea whose time never came. But people probably used it for face paint, especially after 1967, with the hippie culture. Falls were common back then. I had a rommate who had short hair, but had a really nice fall (a piece that attached to the top of the head with combs & made it look like you had long hair). A perfect example of a fall can be seen on Goldie Hawn in the film "Butterflies Are Free" (a reference to "Susan Potter's hair"). Wiglets and chignons were pretty popular. Because my mother was a hairdresser, I always had stuff like that around the house and used it. Hair extensions are the wiglets of today. I still keep a collection of wigs & hairpieces for costuming purposes. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 14:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Keith Subject: panty-hose In their musing over the origin of panty-hose I don't think any one has brought up the comfort factor. Specifically, two women today have mentioned the discomfort of having garter clips digging into the backs of their thighs. I can also image that all that clipping and upclipping was a hassle. Still, I doubt that comfort (if it was a factor) was the only inspiration for the creation of panty-hose. Indeed, few--if any--historical events have their origns in a single cause. I wonder if the change in medium (i.e. silk to nylon) was a factor; nylon was less expensive so it's possible manufacuturers could be more liberal with supplies and make a panty too. Similarly, technologies must have changed so that hose no longer needed to have a seam in the back, is it possible that theses changes made the construction of panty-hose possible? ------------------------------ From: alana_guy@broder.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 14:24:55 Subject: Leg Painting My mom was born in Ireland in 1932 and went to catholic school. In high school, young ladies were not allowed to wear lipstick. So, just to get away with it, they'd draw on their knees with lipstick since no one could see under their skirts. (I don't know what they drew; lips, maybe?) She swears this is true. Also, one of the nuns who taught there was referred to as "Apple-Green Orfman" because one day she fell down, her habit flew up, and she was discovered to be wearing apple-green knickers (panties)- quite a scandal for a nun of that time. I find it heartening that looniness is not just a temporary phenomenon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 18:21:36 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Shoes etc On 22 Mar 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > If anyone wants the shoe info I have please send snail mail address to the > above address and I will send it - if its not too many the company won't > mind (know!). Please bear in mind this is welted shoes for the English > 16th century - I don't make any promises for any other periods/places. How wonderful, as that's exactly what I'm interested in. If you wish reimbursement for postage, please let me know. Elizabeth M. McMahon 32-16 80th st Jackson Heights, NY 11370-2016 USA -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ------------------------------ End of Volume 265 -----------------------