From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 18:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 267, 3/30/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 267, March 30, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Web vs CD-ROM Silk vs acetate What to put on costume CD-ROM/Web page Wigs and Wiglets Tips on Ren Faire costuming History of the bra Elizabethan quilting Armholes and corsets ------------------------------ From: jeff.sargent@hmg.com Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 12:54:54 Subject: CD vs WebPage I've been evaluating this whole "Costume CD" thing and have come up with a few arguments. 1) CD Vs Web - for those not in the know, the web, and Web pages are a visual way to access internet data. WEB: Pros - no limit to data storage capacity, easily updated, globally accessible. WEB: Cons - excruciatingly slow access time prohibits the use of quicktime/sound as tutorials or examples, subject the whim of net problems, fairly pricey for the person(s) running the server(s). CD: Pros - the ability to integrate sound and video (movie clips, close ups of particularly dicey sewing tricks), sale of title could be used to support some worthy cause, or support archive and restoration projects, available to the non-internet savvy. CD: Cons - relatively expensive to mass produce, copyright issues for contributors, market limited to CD ROM users, non-updateable short of reissue. 2) Who's going to coordinate this thing? Web or CD, this is going to call for a project manager, and a site for cataloguing all the various media data. A project team really needs to be decided on. Me, I can design you a doozy of an interface, integrate video, animate tutorials, and even parse out a fair system for organizing the data. I can do it, but I'm sure there are some out there who can sort the data better than I can - let's see a show of hands, swap some phone numbers, and try and shake this thing together. Oh, and if we're deciding on personal titles on the project, I want to be Senor El Presidente-for-Life. ;-) "...'cus you're not the boss of me!" I have the pleasure to remain yours, quite truly, Jeffery Sargent ____________________________________________________________ Jeffery Linden Sargent (510) 601-0900 x310 Sr. MultiMedia Animator jsargent@HMG.COM The HyperMedia Group 5900 Hollis Ste O Emeryville, CA 94608 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 18:55:12 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: CD-ROM I'm not antitechnology. But if anyone is planning to produce a commercial CD-ROM product some real marketing research should be conducted. I have done some marketing research for books and magazine articles on costume. My impression is that, although people into historic costume are very serious about it, there are not many of them in marketing terms. Most publishers, even those specializing in sewing publications, think making costumes for other than strictly professional reasons is kind of weird. Which correlates to "there is no market for this material." Also, there are many existing books on costume--museum catalogs with lush color photos, costume histories and dictionaries, pattern books, and also sized patterns. (This may seem to contradict my earlier statement, but have you noticed how quickly costume books go out of print? Meaning the publisher printed a small quantity and they didn't sell enough to reprint?) What would a CD-RO offer that printed publications do not? Especially considering that the market for books on disk is still in its infancy? The other thing I am seeing, which is a separate issue, is that people on the list want to contribute to publishing information about costume. But what about selling to existing magazines or journals, or even writing a book? Or putting together a "photo-essay"? If you don't insist on getting paid, or will accept low pay, there are dozens of newsletters on reenactment, costuming, vintage clothes, etc. that are delighted to accept articles and photos. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 09:26:34 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 260, 3/24/95 Re: silk prices vs. acetate If you need to buy silk, I would once again recommend Thai Silks for Mail order. They can be as much as half the price of fabric stores. Most of the silk I have bought have been from a couple of mail-order fabric clubs, but you can only order what they offer. Whatever acetates chemical composition is, it tends to look cheapish, and worse, burns brightly! So carefull, if you're making a very full skirt/ garment. Also, acetate doesn't hold dye well, and tends to rub-off after time (so you get a big pale spot where you sit) Just trying to be helpful. Susan Fatemi susan@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 12:17:58 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Re: Re[2]: CD-ROM of Costumes??? Regarding Hope Greenberg's request for visual material relating to costume, I am willing to contribute samples of some of the drawings and paintings of Native American and Old West costumes I have done for Dover coloring books, and anything else I may have relating to European and American military and other costumes that is not copyrighted by the publishers. David Rickman DRICKMAN@STATE.DE.US ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 12:28:27 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Wigs I was in seventh grade in 1969 at a boarding school in San Marcos Texas. I had moderatly long hair (about the mid shoulder blade area) but I had a switch (ponytail) and a cascade. My hair was bone straight and I used the cascade on dressy occasions (parties, teas and church) and the stitch (a-la Jeanie) when I thought I wanted to look older. I thought I was so cool because mine where made of human hair and the other girlsof something synthictic. --Kathy B. --Katrinn ------------------------------ From: jeff.sargent@hmg.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 09:02:17 Subject: Re: CD-ROM Well...since you ask. One benefit of a CD ROM is the ability to cross reference invisbly with an almost unlimited number of criteria - for instance:by fabric, by period, by gender, by region, and any combination thereof. Another benefit is the ability to add movies - very handy for demonstrating a complex process. You say "But a video could do that too". True, but a video, and a series of books takes time to search - the benefit of a CD ROM is that with a few keystrokes you can search several volumes worth of data, in a moment (okay, a few moments). Don't get me wrong - I think people allow computers too much glamour - they're tools, and unreliable ones at that, but one thing they do do well is storage, search, and retrieval of data. I work on one for upwards of 10 hours a day, so I have a realistic knowledge of just what they can and can't do. They can't replace books. They can't replace the cinema. They can't replace us - they are an extension of us. Like a hammer. Like a sword. As to the marketability - bah poo! The multimedia market is extremely permeable to anyone who has the materials. If you have a title, the publishers will listen. It could be marketed as an educational disk (education is the second biggest market for CD's, after porno). Oops - gotta fly. -Jeff ------------------------------ From: BRuadh@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 23:36:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Renaissance Faire Costume Deborah, The book you want to read is: 'Elizabethan Costuming fot the Years 1550-1580' by Janet Winter and Carolyn Savoy Other Times Publications 386 Alcatraz Ave Oakland, CA 94618. Sorry, but I couldn't find an ISBN number nor am I certain tha the address is still valid, however; the Ren. Pleasure Faire sells the book out several places around the faire. The book has become the bible of english costuming for the period. I am not the absolute authority, but I can try to give some specific answers about middle class costume, so here goes. 1)Corsets. Yes middle class women would wear boned bodices, but a heavily boned corset was prefered. You especially want to take notice of the central bone in front (called a stomacher in some circles). The object here was to form a flat tummy and push the busom up into a shelf. Unboned bodices for middle class are an absolute NO NO, unless you are refering to the bodice of your fashion garmet. Even then you want to put some light spring steel boning into a few strategic seams to help maintain the proper silhouette, but the main support for your torso is in the corset. 2)Colors. I am told that virtually any color of the rainbow can be produced with natural dye stufts (this should generate a good deal of debate) but not many are very colr fast. For example, berry juice will produce a good red, but it will fade fairly quickly. Coincidentaly, muted colors are best for costumes. Middle class liked bolder colors than mud hen brown, so muted yellows (not canary), blues, burgandies, browns(dark), greens, etc. Colors to stay away from: red (theatrically too attention getting), black (only for nobles), and royal purple (unless you really want to lose your head). 3)Fabrics. You are right about natural fabrics. Polyester, absolutly did not exist, and wrapping your self in plastic while in the heat out in San Bernadino is, to say the least, not a good idea! For all classes, I believe that wool looks the best, and it is the most correct for the period. Yes wool is a warm material, but it is a natural fiber, and it will breathe (please drink much more water than you think neccesary in any event). Cotton did exist but was VERY hard to come by before the invention of the cotton gin. Linens are also correct if expensive. With all this I would recommend: a)cotton for the undergarments (no one will ever know the differance so please be comfortable) like shirts, chemises, and bloomers, b)wool for the outer garments like bodices, skirts, jerkins, doublets, and britches. You could use cotton for the outer garments out of want for comfort, but you will want to find material with lots of texture before you will be really happy. 4)Hats. Yes you will want one. A muffin cap and/or straw solano (wide brimmed straw hat) is the easiest. 5)Shoes. While I don't recommend them for the long haul. Kung Fu shoes are the easiest to find, but wear some heavy duty insoles as you will be walking a great deal. If I were to spend a substantial sum into any ony garment it would be a good pair of shoes. Once inside you may want to investigate Wild Soles (a Faire vender). Well, so much for a long winded answer. I hope I have been of some help. When you do come out, please look me up. I will be at the court glade (usually) and will be the one in household livery holding a big stick and yelling a lot. Sincerely, Brian A. Howard (aka Alan Raylton: Marshal of the Hall to Sir Rafe Sadler) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:24:56 -0800 From: isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (Jay Isaacs) Subject: CDROMs and WEB Sites My husband has been working at getting a WEB site on line for me, he hope to have the system configuration complete around this weekend. I liked to see the site become a repository costums (historical & fantasy) and clothing construction techniques, books, gatherings and whaterver else seems appropiate. The greatest difficulty has been in the sorting out of information that has been copyright and that which is in the public domain. Any information pictures, writing, movies that are posted to a WEB or CDROM for that part do require permission to reprint from the originator. So far I have received very little permission to reprint information that has already been commercialized. It is for this reason, the greatest resources for this or any site will be members of internet community. Feel free to send me any suggestions or information you would like to see on the site. My currnet plans is to begin the site with a great deal of inoformation on clothing construction techniques of all type. Bio : Celine B. Isaacs Since receiving a B.S. Clothing and Textiles and Apparel Design for Kansas State University in 1985 I have participated in many differnt aspect of the clothing industry. Now that I'm trapped in the middle of the desert I need to find something interesting to do beside watch dust blow. I enjoy both historical and fantasy costuming. My current project is recreating an 1800's bustle dress (historic reproduction) and draft a pattern for others to enjoy. A note on CDROM mastering for my husband. CDROMs can now be mastered for a very low cost about $12.00 dollars each (time not included). Currently I place all kind of inofrmation on CDROMs text, graphics, sound, and movies. A single CDROM can have more than one format written to the disk (Macintosh, PC, UNIX). Your most difficult task is going to be in the gathering of information to fill the disk. It take a lot of stuff to fill a 660MB CDROM. ------------------------------------------------------- Jay & Celine Isaacs In space no one can hear you scream..... isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us jay_isaacs-cta@cl_c21smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 23:36:44 -0800 From: isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (Jay Isaacs) Subject: bras & corsets I just saw a program on the history of women (why is it you can never find a blank video tape when you need it) that gave me some new insights into the evolution of the bra. The program implied that the corset pre-dated the bra (no arugment here), but the explanation of the discovey of the bra was very interesting. During the height of World War I the was an extream shortage of steel and rubber. In the US war propoganda movies encourage the re-use of of these commodities. It was at this point someone determined that the corset consumend 28,000 pounds of steel each year, enoughh to build two complete battle ships. It was at this time Corres Crosbey (spelling...?) ties two silk hankies together to fashion a bra. Her design was then quickly pattented by Warrner Brothers (I've already submittted the patent search), yes the one and only movie company. The conclusion of the fashion segment of the history of women attributed much of the womna fashion revolution to the Amelia Arheart label. Any comment or did anyone get a chance to record this segment....? -------------------------------------------------------- Jay & Celine Isaacs In space no one can hear you scream..... isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us jay_isaacs-cta@cl_c21smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:02:44 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Elizabethan Quilting To-HC@ Friday, March 24, 1995 Belated thanks to all for your input on the pros and cons of demonstrating quilting at an Elizabethan event. I am certainly re-thinking my materials. My working hypothesis is that for a small banner or cushion cover, the cost of the material would probably not be a big factor; anyway my "cover story" is that we didn't buy the fabric, but that "I just took over as Mistress of Linens for the guild, and so I did a good old turn-out of all our coffers and chests to see what there was that could be recycled into something useful." So a small piece of just about anything could turn up. The piece of fabric I've had in mind is a dull gold color (not metallic) polished cotton. Still, your points about what was typical rather than just available make sense. I appreciate hearing about other folks' struggles with historical authenticity and/or compromises for the sake of affordability or practicality. I'm sure we all go through many of the same things. For myself, my aim is to know the "real" story and then to think through any compromises on a case-by-case basis. I would prefer to be authentic whenever I can afford it, but if not, I'll come as close as I can. Now if I can just persuade Leslie not to work on her rose-colored crocheted afghan in the guild yard... ____________________________________________________________ O "Mistress Christian," a.k.a. Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 15:37:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Subject: WEB Sites: Summary Well there definitely seems to be enough interest in seeing a Web site devoted to historic costuming and even several claimants to the title of Webmaster for such a site (and even one vote for a committee!). Even though I volunteered to start it I'll happily let someone else go ahead with the idea. However, as someone who has been developing Web pages and helping others develop them for over a year now I do have some suggestions for increasing the viability of the Web site (we've all seen too many of these things come and go!). 1) The page developer should have a stable anonymous ftp incoming site to receive graphics and materials donated for the page 2) The page server should be stable and reliable, meaning that the developer will have an account there for the foreseeable future and that the machine itself is semi-permanent AND regularly backed up. 3) Although HTML is easy to learn it also helps to have some knowledge of how to develop pages, how to organize the materials in such a way that they will remain flexible and easy to adapt to new designs (things like file naming practices and directory structuring) 4) The developer will no doubt want to make available some searchable database capabilities, which, though easy to design a Web front-end for, requires programming at the back end (or at least you need a good friend who is a programmer!) 5) The developer should have access to scanning devices and graphics manipulation software--many of the people who expressed an interest in contributing pictures would be providing them as photos or slides That's a start. Of course, this is a Web so several pages could be developed simultaneously (we don't need to lock ourselves into artificial hierarchies here). As I said, I still volunteer but I certainly have enough other projects to keep me busy if someone else wants to do it! ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit The Hall's latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 The Ovid Project ----------------- Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 13:31:07 -0800 (PST) From: Edi Vache Subject: Re: bras & corsets caresse crosby? married to harry crosby? weird, ver weird..... +edi+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 14:16:54 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Re: Metal "corset covers" On Thu, 16 Mar 1995 Staylace@aol.com wrote: > I'm sorry Betsy--I did not miss your point--the point is just plain invalid. > > The four steel corsets I cited are in NO WAY the same corset. They are not > even remotely alike in appearance. > > Kindest Regards, > Thomas B. Lierse > Long Island Staylace Association > I have not followed the discussion about metal corsets/covers very closely, in fact I am not even certain of the exact years we are talking about but... in LATE Renassaince armour was no longer worn for protective measures, but 'court' (for lack of a better term) armour showing the skill of the smith and the wealth of the wearer became popular. Extrapulating this, is it not theoricly possible these metal corset became a femmine participation in that fashion fad? (sorry about spelling - no spell checker/dictionary) Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 14:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts > By the way, the folks at Plimoth have come up with some reasonably-priced > sources of linen. Could you tell us who these sources are? Recently, I found a linen-look material that said it was linen on the sign, when I moved the fabric back from the boltend and read fiber contents, there wasn't a single strand, not even a human baby's hair strand worth of flax in it! Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 14:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: "RuthAnn M. Saylor" Subject: Re: Renaissance quilts > > I have found that the great tendency of reenactors is to use cotton whenever they can because it is cheap > > and familiar. How often have I heard the refrain "It was around then, so they > > could have used it," whenever inappropriate materials or styles need to > > excused. The point is, cotton did exist then, it was used in at least one > > pourpoint as wadding, but was it _typical_? It is really a matter While we are attempting to recreate the clothing and trying to be accurate - one must remember that we do not have a period climate. Some of us are recreating in the Sacramento valley area - you know 100 degrees, no breeze, lots of humidity - so cotton becomes a very attractive fabric because it is cheap, it is familiar, it comes in light weights, and IT BREATHES!! Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 11:58:49 +0800 (WST) From: Luana Lisandro Subject: RE: Points/Dangers on a Web Page... It is good to see that people are discussing/debating the issue... and it seems that for practical reasons a Web Page would be the best option for a _mailing list_... Here are some points that people should keep in mind... 1) There should be an "Offical Web Page of Historical Costume", and others who want to create other pages of historical costume should feel free to do so... However, I think you really need to discuss the setting up of the *offical* web page with Diane, the list owner... and the mailing list, should be asked what features that they want on such a page (may be in a small survey form)... 2) The mailing list should nominate a Web site that is stable... as Hope A. Greengerg's post "Web Sites: Summary" makes some excellent points... 3) People who want to contribute in creating the "Official Web Page of Historical Costume", should nominate themselves in a separate post entitled "Web Page: Nominations for Participation"... which should be open for a certain period of time... then the final list is posted... Can I remind you that the mailing list is "global"... and that people can communicate with each other via the net... 4) A small survey should be sent to the mailing list... may be a post entitled "Web Page: Features Survey"... and yet again, there should be a period of time for people to respond to the survey... the suvrey should be sent to the Survey Coordinator... 5) Once, the survey time has elapsed... it can be collated by several people, however, the Survey Coordinator will have the task of repost out the surveys to others helping to collate... The results should be posted to the mailing list... and these results should be the aims of the "Official Web Page", which should be in accordance with the aims of the _Mailing List_... The "process" of setting up an "Official Web Page of Historical Costume" will be time consuming, because it is a part of a mailing list... However, if you take the time, all members will feel that it has been thoroughly thought out... Please note that these are *just* suggestions... Hope this helps! Regards, Luana ++++++ Luana Lisandro ++++++++++++ email: luana@yarrow.wt.com.au | Perth, Western Australia | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 00:13:10 -0800 From: isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (Jay Isaacs) Subject: WEB Sites It is not my intent to or is it possible for a WEB page to even duplicate the functions of a list server. List servers are easily accessible by all individuals with E-Mail accounts and provide for a conversational interchange of information. What is lacking is a place on the Internet for people to go to find out general information on the aspect of costuming and clothing construction, local events and anything else. There definitely should not be only one WEB page though, by the nature of WEB pages they can be designed to link to other sites. Currently we have access to two commercial locations that can support WEB pages. Both of these sites provide full T1 bandwidth to the Internet. The best design is to distribute the load of maintaining the WEB pages over all capable and willing members, with all of the sites inter-linked. By having multiple WEB pages distributed over the country (world), I feel new information would appear at a much greater rate. It definitely sound like we could all have a good time doing this. For a start I'd like to see people respond who would like to host WEB pages or contribute to them, I'm sure all of us will have very different interest for the focus of each WEB page make the entire project very interesting, educational and entertaining for all. I have started by setting up and ananymous FTP site to collect information. FTP to owens.ridgecrest.ca.us in /pub/users/isaacsj/ If people are willing to send a documet with their capabilities/contributions I will maintain a mailing or WEB that includes everything I receive. Celine B. Isaacs WEB Mistress - knowledge of html and HTTP server administration. Current Resources: EPSON ES-1200C Color Scanner NIKON 2700 dpi 24-bit color side scanner. Pinnacle Micro RCD-202 (A very finicky device) Macintosh 7100 PPC and 486-66 DX2 Interests: Clothing Construction Pattern Drafting Historical Garment Reproductions (favorite time periods) Female - Victoria 1880's (love those bustles) Female - Elizabethan late 1500's (great collars) Male - Elizabethan and Henry 1500's (slashing and tights) Fantasy Costumes Klingon - lots of Klingon Costumes Japanese Kimono and Kabuki Costuming Scottish textiles and garments -------------------------------------------------------- Jay & Celine Isaacs In space no one can hear you scream..... isaacsj@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us jay_isaacs-cta@cl_c21smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 08:13:12 -0500 Subject: armholes and corsets Lynn says: I usually try to make the armhole cutouts larger/farther forward than I think necessary, since pinching there seems one of the most uncomfortable forms of misfit. I heartily agree!! I've recently realized that the armhole placement is wrong on my corset and some of my gowns. They are fine and comfortable if I stand as if I'm having my portrait painted :) but pinch that tendon at the front of the armpit unmercifully when I play the violin. I've recut the armholes on my corset and am trying to remind myself about this as I make new bodices. Just another fit area to think about. Thea ------------------------------ From: RCarnegie@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 14:33:35 -0500 Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume ...