From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 271, 4/5/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 271, April 5, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Did anyone save Saxon Seams post? Question and answers: History of piping ISO: Historical embroidery list On "cotton" On Kilt pleats Good historic costume sources ISO: Sources for everyday historic costume Instructions for fetching the archives ISO: Info on French hoods Source of "Elizabethan Dress" book Vintage dance (jazz age) SF Bay area ISO: Info on Lucette cord Question and answer: Info on clothing for Cossacks On Authenticity Spanish costume and heat Wool allergies? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 09:10:58 BST Subject: Saxon seams again. A while back I posted a message about Saxon seams to a few peoplke on this list I then deleted it & someone else asked me for a copy. Did anybody out there keep a copy they could mail back to me to save typing it all in again? If so please email it back to me at jennyb.pdd.3Com.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:43:52 -0600 (CST) From: Jennifer Kubenka Subject: piping I was engaged in a conversation with an SCA-friend of mine, and we were discussing piping on articles of clothing. To our mutual dismay, we both realized that neither of us knew when piping was first used. I found one reference to an article of clothing having gold banding put around it's edges; this would be in the 1600s, I think. Does anyone have any better information on this? Jennifer D. Kubenka, not to be confused with the Jennifer who does those wonderful posts on things Viking! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:46:50 -0600 (CST) From: Jennifer Kubenka Subject: Embroidery lists I have another question, one that is tangential to historic costuming. Are there any lists on the Internet that deal with embroidery of all kinds? I am not talking modern-day cross stitch, I am talking Spanish embroidery, blackwork, Assisi embroidery, these types of things. I've exhausted my ILL dept. here at SMU with requests for embroidery books and articles that SMU simply doesn't have. Jennifer D. Kubenka ------------------------------ From: PSW@cba-gsb-dean.tamu.edu Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 8:23:30 CST6CDT Subject: Re: silk prices Thanks, Sheryl, for the Thai silks info. 'Tis much appreciated! Pam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 9:34:37 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: cotton Regarding the use of cotton in past centuries, I read in a posting yesterday that Cromwell issued his New Model Army shirts of linen and cotton. Last night at dinner I mentioned this interesting fact to our houseguest, Nathalie Rothstein, the noted textile authority, a retired curator of the Victoria and Albert Museum's Costume and Textile collections. Ms. Rothstein is here on a lecture tour and my wife and I have been housing her and picking her brain for a couple of weeks now. At any rate, Nathalie responded with "But, of course, in the early 17th century "cotton" could mean _wool_." I sat there stupidly for a moment, not responding to what, to her, was a perfectly obvious point. She then explained that in the days before the cotton industry really took off (early 19th century), "cotton" was a generic term meaning any cheap, plain-woven fabric meant for utility purposes, no matter what the fiber, and that it was frequently wool or a mixture of wool with other fibers. Only later did it mean the fiber and fabric we use so commonly today. This is like the term "cattle" which originally meant all hooved livestock, including pigs, sheep, horses and (as the writers of the past distinguished them '_horned_ cattle." Not until ranching days, when most cattle were horned, did cattle become synonymous with bovines. >From my own researches I know that in Spanish Mexico and the Southwest, a length of cheap fabric was called a "coton." Originally, the fabric was cotton, as woven by the Aztecs and Pueblos, but, under the Spanish, especially in the American Southwest, the fiber was usually wool. I don't know quite how this relates, except perhaps that "cotton" was a word found throughout Europe in those centuries, and that, at that time, it did not mean "cotton." Now, this is not to ignore the fact that the fiber we know as cotton was used in this era as well, and _will_ be found in original garments and trapunto and whatever, but when we try to determine how widespread its use was by looking for written confirmation in inventories and elsewhere, we need to be careful. One last thought is that it makes sense for Cromwell to issue two types of shirts to each of his soldiers: one of linen and the other of wool David ------------------------------ From: CashiusM@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:48:01 -0500 Subject: Kilt pleats After reading a few of the comments about kilts, I might have some information to help you. 1) Great kilts. ('brecan feile") was usually several yards of heavy wool. This was laid length-wise and then hand pleated to fit the wearer's body. Experienced individudals could stand and simply "fold" it (much like a fan). For renaissance festivals in the warms climates, I suggest using a lighter wool blend and only 4-5 yards. This more than enough material! 2) Modern day kilts. Usually have 4-5 yards of material cut in half length-wise and stitched end-to-end. (Although professional kilt makers may use 8-9 yards cut to make two kilts). To pleat them you can choose from two methods: Normal pleat or Military pleat. The depth of the pleat varies drastically depending upon the "sett" of the kilt (the pattern). The Military pleat is designed to hide a color inside the pleat, this produces a "flash" as they march. For example if you had the old Rob Roy (known today as the hunters red and black), you may choose to "hide" the red behind the black within each pleat. The Normal pleat is designed to complety recreate the pattern or "sett" of the tartan. Depending on the complexity of the sett, you may have to vary the depth of each pleat. This was done so that the sett could be recognized from behind and at a distance. Hope this helps. Cash. ------------------------------ From: OWirght@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 00:01:00 -0500 Subject: Sources Re: Lucy Barton: I am of that school of costumers who were taught that Lucy was the "one", and, I believe she really was. She left so much latitude for creativity, and she also gave the authentic information as well as how to adapt to the "spirit" of both the period as well as the character. I have a subsequent publication by Doris Edson with text by Lucy Barton, a supplement to Historic etc.. Boston Walter H. Baker Co MCMXLII , c l942 and l970 containing construction charts by Doris Edson re: enlarging to scale, Mens and Womens foundationnn patterns showing points where measurements may deviate from the standard, Pourpoint and trunk hose 1575-80, l6th c. doublets and a cape,ranging through time to an afternoon reception suit french l911. These are from existing garments and tailor books of the time. There are 40 garments in all. I have used some, with some success, and do love her a lot. Anne Saunders ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:53:22 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: piping I was reading the wardrobe accounts of Mary Queen of Scots, and there were a number of references to satin, velvet and other fabrics used to "edge" garments. I have no idea if edging is the same as piping, though. Drea Leed On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, Jennifer Kubenka wrote: > > I was engaged in a conversation with an SCA-friend of mine, and we were > discussing piping on articles of clothing. > > To our mutual dismay, we both realized that neither of us knew when > piping was first used. > > I found one reference to an article of clothing having gold banding put > around it's edges; this would be in the 1600s, I think. > > Does anyone have any better information on this? > > Jennifer D. Kubenka, not to be confused with the Jennifer who does those > wonderful posts on things Viking! > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:35:27 -0500 From: longwave@mail.north.net (E. Cheung) Subject: Everyday clothing Does anyone know of any goods books on "every day fashion?". The earlier the years the better, say from 1800's onward or maybe earlier. Also books on everyday hair styles, in particular men's hairstyles for the same period. Ed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:24:23 EST From: deirdre@cybernetics.net (Charlene S- Noto) Subject: Re: Embroidery lists At 07:46 AM 3/29/95 -0600, Jennifer Kubenka wrote: >Are there any lists on the Internet that deal with embroidery of all >kinds? I am not talking modern-day cross stitch, I am talking Spanish >embroidery, blackwork, Assisi embroidery, these types of things. >Jennifer D. Kubenka Jennifer, I am working on this for my WWW page. I have sent you an attachment. -Charlene =============================================================== Charlene Noto Internet:deirdre@cybernetics.net CIS: 75374,3154 SCA: Deirdre of Boolteens, Barony of Sacred Stone Vert, On a Chevron Or, Three Butterflies Sable, In Chief Erminois =============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 14:31:54 EST From: deirdre@cybernetics.net (Charlene S- Noto) Subject: Re: Saxon seams again. At 09:10 AM 3/29/95 BST, jennyb@pdd.3com.com wrote: >A while back I posted a message about Saxon seams to a few peoplke on this list >I then deleted it & someone else asked me for a copy. > >Did anybody out there keep a copy they could mail back to me to save typing it >all in again? > >If so please email it back to me at >jennyb.pdd.3Com.com > > I saved it and it is on it's way to you. -Charlene =============================================================== Charlene Noto Internet:deirdre@cybernetics.net CIS: 75374,3154 SCA: Deirdre of Boolteens, Barony of Sacred Stone Vert, On a Chevron Or, Three Butterflies Sable, In Chief Erminois =============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 11:46:04 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Authenticity: info on previous discussion >> I, for one, would like to plea for those who werent part of the >> original, um, skirmish to find and read the back issues. The most >> common Subject lines were "hot clothing" "uncomfortable/hot >> clothing", "Authenticity", "The old authenticity thing" & "calif >> recreations". Use these when you send your TOPICS search to >> majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com >> >> Cynthia@caere.com >Cythia, >I tried sending a message to this address to look up these topics >(as I was not around during the original "skirmish") but I received >a message saying "host unknown". Is this the correct address? Or am >I just doing something wrong? Sheryl, My apologies! I mistyped the majordomo address! Here's compleat instructions from Diane Close. --cin -=-=-=- The index is available from my machine, "lunch", using some automatic commands. Simply send the words: index h-costume as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and Majordomo will send you back an index of available files. Then use the command: get h-costume filename (where "filename" is the name of the file you want) to retrieve the named files. Thus if you wanted the h-costume file called "TOPICS" you'd send: get h-costume TOPICS as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and Majordomo would send you back the file called TOPICS. It's easy! Try it out and don't worry about getting back some error messages -- read them and experiment because you can't break anything. :-) Good luck! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 15:16:20 EST Subject: Re: Sources When I was starting out in the SCA (1973), before such marvels as Janet Arnold and others, Lucy Barton's books, as well as "Evolution of Fashion" by Hill and Bucknell, were godsends because they gave you enough information to pass the "5- feet" rule (It should look authentic 5 feet away, as opposed to on a stage), as well as relatively easy patterns to follow. I'd still recommend them for beginners and theatrical or RenFaire purposes, especially Hill & Bucknell, for all the other information they impart. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: Aboleyn1@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:44:59 -0500 Subject: French Hoods I would like to hear from anyone who has extensive knowledge on French Hoods (1500-1540) and their origin and authentic patterns. i have made a few myself and I need more info on them for i will be teaching a class on making them, so i need authentic pattern and fabric info!! Thank you. . . Sarah Anne Russell ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 15:57:10 EST Subject: Re: piping Jennifer -- There is a man's doublet in the LA Co. Art Museum that has piped seams. It's Elizabethan, I think 1570 to 1600 (I can check -- I think it's also in Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion"). I've also seen Gustavus Adolphus's doublet (mid 1600's) which is piped in gold. I'm sure others may have earlier references. Take a careful look at color portraits in art books. That might help. Good luck. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for Elizabethian Dress Book Hello I received the Raiment's catalog and in it was the Elizabethan Costuming for the years 1550-1580. The ISBN## on the book is 0-9630220-0-8. The page it is found on in the Raiment's catalog is number 3-b. The ordering number for the book is LOP03. Raiment's address is PO box 797-2723, Pasadena CA 91109. They have a fax ## at (818)791-9434. Their tel ## is (818)797-2723 (T-TH 10am to 5pm Calif time). Email is CIS#72437,674. I don't know the price total with shipping..sorry...But I do know there is an additional 5% charge for visa/mastercard orders over the phone,fax and email.. Chantal ------------------------------ From: alana_guy@broder.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 15:25:15 Subject: Starlight Dances Dance to music from the "jazz age" at the Strawberry Recreation Center in Mill Valley, with the 15-piece San Francisco Starlight Orchestra. ADDRESS: 118 Strawberry Drive, Mill Valley, CA CONTACT PHONE: (707) 973-6107 - ask for Jim First Saturday of each month, 8:00 p.m. to 11:00 pm. Free '20's & '30's Dance Lessons from 7-8 pm: tango, 2-step, foxtrot, Charleston Honor bar, BYOB; great wooden dance floor I don't know how much it costs, but it sure sounds like fun to me! Period dress encouraged. ------------------------------ From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:58:06 -0500 Subject: Lucet Cord Can anyone here help me find out about lucet cord? I feel terrifically embarrassed that I'd never heard of it. I'd like to learn how to make it (primarily for lacings). Also, where can I get the materials needed and instructions? Many thanks. (If you post the information to this list, will you please e-mail me a copy also? Thanks!) Elizabeth Blackdane TudorLdy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 23:47:55 -0600 (CST) From: BROTHER CAPTAIN ELVIS SPUTNIK KID Subject: Cossack materials? Yes, another of the SCA here ;> Anyway, I am attempting to do some research on the Cossacks from before the end of the 16th century. So far I've found a great deal of material on the culture and traditions, but the libraries in my area are wofully defecient in the area of Cossack garb during this time period. So far all I've been able to dig up (no pun intended) is one very small woodcut that has no detail. If anyone can point me towards some good sources it would be much appreciated. ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 30 Mar 95 09:37:00 BST Subject: Meditations on Authenticity When I was at university, many moons ago, reading history, I was also expected to know a little about historiography, and was introduced to EH Carrs little book, published by Penguin called 'What is History' (I may have the title wrong). In that he analysed the intellectual process of knowing the past and in essence (please forgive vagaries of time, space and memory) said that we can never know the past. History is an intellectual exercise of the imagination, judged by the closeness the historian achieves to the current concept of 'truth'. Equally, the concept of 'truth' is constantly rewritten in each generation, reflecting their interests. I was excited by this idea, which seems to be to be a rather elegant, existentialist view, other people are put off, wanting more definate answers. It seems to me that authenticity is similar, it is a constant striving, knowing you will never achieve it. Equally knowing that the closer you try to get, the more you know about what you are failing to achieve. The problem lies in what happens when you give up, or don't care that much about it - as I am sure we have all seen. The 'It'll do' syndrome - which we probably all identify in our own ways. I have long been aware that, to future generations, it is not what we identify as wrong in our costumes/activities which will condemn us as late 20th century, it is what we do not see. We cannot see it because it looks 'right' to our eyes, which makes it (whatever 'it' is) closer to the 20th century than the 16th - or which ever one we are interested in. So we are caught between the impossible and the naff. Re-reading that it seems rather pompous, but I cannot find less pompous words, so I hope you will forgive me. Just to stir the pot a little more! I went to an exhibition of Spanish Still Life, Velasquez to Goya, (National Gallery Sainsbury Wing, London, on to 21 May) recently. Well worth a visit if you can get there - though not really from the clothes point of view. However they did have an interesting couple of Velasquez's pictures - Old Woman cooking Eggs, The Waterseller, and a Mary and Martha which raised the following point. The Martha in that is obviously a contemporary cook (the Christ and Mary look like 'biblical' characters and are in the background. She is wearing a heavy wool jacket, so heavy and felted it could almost be leather. This is in central Spain. How do temperatures in central Spain compare to the southern States? I know when I visited El Escorial a few years ago in August, I found the temperatures almost unbearable. Caroline Opinionated! Moi! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:39:48 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: French Hoods I'd like some info on them, too! Those things are the most hideously complex looking things I've ever seen. I tried making one once, but quickly gave up. Drea On Wed, 29 Mar 1995 Aboleyn1@aol.com wrote: > I would like to hear from anyone who has extensive knowledge on French Hoods > (1500-1540) and their origin and authentic patterns. i have made a few myself > and I need more info on them for i will be teaching a class on making them, > so i need authentic pattern and fabric info!! > > Thank you. . . > > Sarah Anne Russell > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cossack materials? Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 09:30:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Where are you looking? I have found Cossack garb pictures in books on Ukranian costume. You and other interested people can contact me directly for more information, since all my books are at home and this doesn't seem like a general-interest question. ...eliz (SCA: Yelizaveta Medvedeva) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 09:59:14 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Wool clothing Are you sure that it is the wool that you are allergic to or is it the chemicals that are used today to finish it. I too thought that I was allergic, not only rashes and sneezing but also asthma as well, until I tried to spin cleaned wool that did not have any of the chemicals on it. Much to my suprise I did not have any of the problems, now I can't wear comercial wool to this day but I can wear home-made stuff. Just a thought. --Kathy B --Katrinn ------------------------------ End of Volume 271 -----------------------