From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 284, 4/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 284, April 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Thomas Crapper Arizona clothing reference Irish vs Scottish kilts Some more russian costume sources Cotton ENOUGH COTTON ALREADY! Questions on capes and cape linings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:16:08 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Thos. Crapper (was Re: Bogus Bra inventor) Sorry to beat this old, smelly horse-corpse, but had to look up my facts first. paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) wrote: .... > > This story has been making the rounds for years. It is an example > > of British humor which caught on as truth along with the Thomas > > Crapper story. It is a story simply for laughs. > > Alas, Thos. Crapper actually *did* exist and was a plumber at around the > time that first Joseph Bramah's "wash-out" closet (which, frankly, was > something of a wash-out!) was invented which was then superceded by > Armitage's "wash-down" closet; Crapper himself also invented sanitary > wares of the wash-down variety, which were fitted by his company. He was > not, however, the "inventor of the modern loo", but was nearly eponymous > with the already prevalent slang term relating to the use of such > devices. .... Unfortunately, Thomas Crapper is also a fig-newton of our eager imachinations. The word 'crap' comes from Middle English 'crappe' (same meaning), which came from the Saxon word (same spelling) meaning "rubbish", "pile of refuse". Unless your willing suspenders of this-belief will hold up the implausibility that Thomas was born with such an ironic name, Mr. Crapper needs to be buried alongside Herr Titzslinger. Broom's Rule of Rumour: If the story _really_ sounds convenient to your theory, throw both out and start over. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Honi soit qui mal y pense." (yeah, sure it does...) /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 11:54:01 EDT From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: Arizona Hello, I was talking to someone off the list the other day, and promised her a reference, and now have lost her name and address. Here is the reference. Brenda M. Brandt "Arizona Clothing: A Frontier Perspective" _Dress_ vol 15, 1989. Thank you. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 11:55:11 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: another Kilt question .... (fwd) In regard to Marc's quotations from an 1873 source, please check H. F. McClintock "Old Irish and Highland Dress" (published 1950 and the best resource around for this sort of thing). A *leine*, no matter how it is spelled, is the _saffron shirt_ the Irish (and Scots) wore for centuries.The difference in spelling may be that one word (leine) is Irish Gaelic and the other (leinidh) is Scots Gaelic -- like ceili (Irish) and ceilidh (Scots Gaelic). It was frequently fringed, as were everything else the Irish wore (their brat, or mantle, and ionar, or jacket, being frequently described as fringed). The leine was very long, to about the ankles, and was _kilted_ up to above the knee (hence the desription from the triad) by a belt. So you put on your leine, put a belt on, and pulled most of the material up and over the belt, so the leine only reached the knees or above, but the rest of the material hung over the belt. Once again, beware Victorian sources. They frequently made it up, or at least took great pride in misinterpreting things. If he had looked at some of the contemporary illustrations, he might have figured it out. There is little or no reference to anything resembling a kilt, especially in _Irish_ sources until around 1600.Once again misinterpretation rears its ugly head. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 09:29:16 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 277, 4/12/95 What a great bibliography! Thanks for sharing! If you look at the bib. I sent a couple of months ago (much more modest, I admiit) there was a book (in Russian) about "Costume in Daghestan" (i.e. Caucasus) I don't have the bib. to hand or the book, but there were pictures and drawings of Cossack type garments. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 12:25:10 TZ Subject: RE: sigh, cotton redux | >"Callicut famous... for that cotton cloth that was first hence | >transported to Europe." L. Roberts, The Merchant's Map of Commerce, | >London 1638, page 188, quoted in M. Channing Linthicum, Costume in the | >Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries, Oxford 1936, page 104. | >Calicut is the city in India from which calico takes its name. | | Not much new here. Note that the word "cotton" modifies "cloth." In other | words, the author is making the same sort of distinction we would expect for | "woolen cloth." What we are looking for is when and where the word "cotton," | standing alone, stopped meaning a coarse woolen cloth, and began meaning, in | fact, "cotton cloth." Big sigh. Do you have any evidence that England imported large amounts of coarse woolen cloth from India in the early 1600's? No. Can you cite any good reason why England *would* import coarse woolen cloth from India, when it could be obtained much more cheaply at home? No. Do you have any evidence that calico was ever made from coarse woolen cloth? No. The English countryside is admirably suited to the raising of sheep. Wool was England's leading export. India has a climate better suited for raising cotton rather than sheep. Is it reasonable to believe that England would have imported coarse wool cloth from India, when it could obtain it much more cheaply at home? No. Is it reasonable to believe that coarse wool cloth was so rare in England that a city in India could become famous for producing it? No. You are fixated. You value this notion of yours so highly that you will ignore any evidence, no matter how plain and obvious. | >"Cambaia ...great quantities of cotton linens are here made, which we | >term callicoes of all sorts...." L. Roberts, The Merchant's Map of | >Commerce, page 179, again quoted in M. Channing Linthicum, Costume in | >the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries. | | Here again, in this quote, the author is using "cotton" as a | modifier of "linens." Clearly, he is not using "cotton" by itself to mean a | textile. Don't be a putz. Anyone who has ever shopped at a fabric store knows that "wool silk," "cotton linen" mean blends of wool and silk, cotton and linen, etc. This same useage is found in 16th and 17th Century sources. Moreover, you have repeatedly defined cotton as "a woolen cloth that has been 'cottoned'...." How can linen be a woolen cloth? Are you now going to tell us that "woolen" means "linen?" | >Linthicum also quotes a letter from the Turkey Company (an importer of | >cotton from Smyrna, Cyprus, Acra, and Sydon) to the Aleppo Factos, | >dated June 3, 1586: "For cotton yarn, we would have you send us 60 | >baggs at the least... for candells... and for fustians." | | Here again, "cotton" is used as a modifier, for "yarn." You've defined "cotton cloth" as frieze. A cloth can be a frieze -- a yarn cannot. Your definition does not make sense in this context. Moreover, the English used cotton for candlewicks, from the 14th Century. Much better for that purpose than wool. I think it reasonable to assume that a yarn, called cotton, imported from India, a major producer of cotton, and used to make something that was commonly made out of cotton, was probably cotton! | >Really? I have a denim jacket, flannel shirts, and cotton blankets. | >While cotton is not as not as good an insulator as wool, there is no | >reason why a cotton fabric cannot be warm. | | *To understand why Edward's wardrobe and bed linens are irrelevant to the | question of what "frieze" meant in the 18th and preceding centuries, we need | to look back at all the citations made in this discussion, beginning with the | description of "frieze" as a woolen cloth that was "frizzed" to raise its | nap. The question was not what "frieze" meant. The question -- which you sidestepped -- was your amazing claim that cotton cannot be warm. | | It does not | | necessarily mean "these shirts were made from a combination of linen and | | cotton." Why would they, when the common word for that was "fustian?" | | >Linthicum calls fustian "a velure of cotton, or flax mixed with wool, | >so silky looking that it substituted for velvet." Linthicum documents | >the use of fustian for vestments, socks, waistcoats, aprons, doublets, | >gowns, and linings for various garments, but not shirts. | | *A closer reading would have revealed to Edward that I never said that | Cromwell's soldiers were wearing fustian shirts, but was here trying to | persuade Bryan of just the opposite. I closer reading of what *I* wrote, David, would show that "fustian" was not "the common word for... a combination of linen and cotton" but "a velure of cotton, or flax mixed with wool, so silky looking that it substituted for velvet." If anyone here has a reading problem, it's not me. | *Again, I have not had a chance to look up the original. Nevertheless, Edward | must see the difference between a comma between "dangerous, treacherous.." | and an _and_ between "cotton and bombast." This is would make no more sense | than saying, "his blue jeans were of cotton _and_ denim." That is not poetic | redundancy, but nonsense. This argument is making me tired and sleepy. What is your problem here, David? Why are you so adamant about this, in the face of all evidence to the contrary? Do you have a thesis riding on this or something? If so, you'd better choose a new topic. You're never going to get this one past the committee. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:44:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Jennifer Kubenka Subject: Victorian Scholarship, please forward. (fwd) Forwarding more research on Irish kilts. Like I said, it ain't my thing, I prefer Italian Renaissance and English Tudor. It seems to me, though, that there is a great deal of grey area concerning kilts. SIGH. I'm just the forwarder of the message. Any correspondence with Marc should be addressed privately to his own email address found in the header below, and not to the h-costume list as a whole, as he does not subscribe. Thanks so very much, Jennifer Kubenka ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:08:24 -0500 (CDT) >From: I. Marc Carlson >Subject: Victorian Scholarship, please forward. From: KATHLEEN NORVELL >In regard to Marc's quotations from an 1873 source, please check H. F. >McClintock "Old Irish and Highland Dress" (published 1950 and the best resource >around for this sort of thing). In regards to your message, I _have_ checked McClintock, thank you. I was responding to a question regarding the topic at hand, and went to the most informative work I knew of. I admit that McClintock is indeed a standard work on this topic, but was under the impression that you had already cited his work, and so was really looking for other information. However, that's not what I'm writing about. Have you "checked" O'Curry? Have you bothered to even *look* at the work you are slamming as mere Victorian misinformation? Granted, O'Curry's a bit obscure, but much of his scholarship is quite sound, thank you, and if I may quote Michael O Haodha (Eire-Ireland, vol.1 (1965) no. 1, pg. 69-76 "Eugene O'Curry and Thomond"): "Apart from his monumental works...there is scarecely a work of genuine scholarship since 1840 to which he did not make, at least, a secondary contribution." I am well aware of the drawbacks to much Victorian "scholasticism", but to disregard a single source because it has an opinion that your pet author happens to disagree with betokens to me a less agreeable scholastic attitude than that you lambast the Victorians with. As for the person looking for Irish clothing information, a quick peek at Eager, Alan R. _The Guide to Irish Bibliographical Material_ (Westport, Conn: Greenwood Press, 1980): 2698 Costume Index; a subject index to plates and illustrated text; edited by Isabel Monro and Dorothy E. Cook. New York: 1937. Supplement. New York: 1957. 2699 Danaher, Kevin. The Dress of the Irish. _Eire-Ireland_, vol.2 (1967), no. 3, 5-11. (Which, while informative is little more than a rehash of McKlintock). 2703 Hiler, Hilaire and Hiler, Meyer, compilers. Bibliography of Costume: a dictionary catalogue of about eight thousand books and periodicals. New York: 1939. 2705 McKlintock, H.F. Old Irish and Highland Dress and that of the Isle of Man, with chapters on pre-Norman dress as described in early Irish literature by F. Shaw and on early tartans by J. Telfer Dunbar; 2d enl. ed. Dundalk: 1950. References in contemporary English and continental writings, pp. 74-94. (Note that there are only 41 libraries that indicate that they hold this work and will loan it, according to OCLC. The pertinant numbers are #7973729, #30192896, #2901572) 2706 Price, Anne. The Irish way of dress. _Country Life_, vol. 148, no. 3823, 1970, 318-9. 5381 Hunt, John. Irish medieval figure sculpture, 1200-1600: a study of Irish tombs with notes on costume and armour, with assistance and contributions from Peter Harbison. Dublin and London: 1974. 2 vols. I'm afraid that O'Curry, that bit of "Victorian Misinformation" shows up only under "History by Period. Earliest Times to the Anglo Norman Invasion, 1172" (8318), and "Histoory. Bibliography". BTW, for the truly interested, Patricia Boyne has two articles on O'Curry: "Thank you Eoin O'Curry: From Mongan, O'Grady, and others" Studies [Ireland] 1983 72 (285) 76-83 and "The Cardinal and the Professor" Studies [Ireland] 1990 79 (316) 360-367. Marc Carlson IMC@VAX2.UTULSA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 15:51:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: Re: sigh, cotton redux Cut it out, you guys. Can we stop the discussion, since it has turned into an argument? Edward: your posting doesn't make any sense to me. If, as you claim, the argument makes you tired, why are you the one injecting vitriol into the conversation? It was facts, before you turned it into a name-calling session. Despite your desire to hurl nasty names, your arguments do not speak to the points that David is making. David did not SAY that the cloth from India was wool. HE AGREES WITH YOU that it is made from the cotton fiber. He merely said that this quotation doesn't use the word "cotton" as a noun. It is used as an adjective, modifying cloth. Therefore, this quotation does not show that cotton, as a noun, was used to describe a fabric in the 1600's. Same goes for the second paragraph: "cotton linens" uses cotton as an adjective. I shop a _lot_ of fabric stores, and have never seen WORD WORD used to mean a blend of fabrics. I've seen WORD/WORD (as in polyester/cotton), but POLYESTER LINEN means that the fabric has not a shred of flax in it. POLY SILK likewise means that is "simulates" silk but hasn't any silk in it. So don't use modern usage to try to prove your point. It has no bearing to historical usage. Unless somebody has more historical quotes, I think we've done this topic to death, and should drop it for the present. <==================================================== < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 17:07:24 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Yes, cotton again. To David -- I have gotten the same posting three times today, so there's definitely a glitch if you don't get something back to show it's been posted. Anyway, in reply to your statement about linking cotton as a fabric to fustian before the 1700s, the reference from the 1633 edition of Gerard's Herbal clearly states that fustian is made of linen and cotton (this in an entry describing *cotton* as a plant, fiber, and fabric) for the common use. The herbal is set up with an illustration of the plant and a description of it and its uses, so this is not a random reference. You look up "cotton" and there it is, unequivocably NOT wool or anything to do with wool (except the description of the cotton boll as "cotton wool"). As for people forgetting that cotton once meant wool, it is beaten into me every time I go to some living history or re-enactment event, usually by some "authenticity Nazi" who doesn't have a clue and doesn't believe they had yellow dye in the 18th century either. (This really happened to me). People have forgotten, or more probably never knew, that "cotton" used to refer to *cotton* too. These are the people who say "They never [had, ate, wore, etc.]... I'm not getting into the matter of frieze because I always thought frieze only referred to a shaggy wool weave. A friend of mine has a wonderful shaggy wool Irish mantle. It was the first time I'd ever seen one. It was truly impressive. Like I said, I'll get you the full citations of Gerard's and the Cromwell orders as soon as I can.Thanks for your participation in this debate. I think we've found the fundamental problem, which is what does a word mean at any given time, and is there any way we can determine what the meaning was. In any case, I think this should serve as warning for anyone doing textile research not to take thins at face value, but to try and dig a little deeper. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 15:18:19 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Cape Lining/cape making Greetings, all. I am about to make an elizabethan cape for someone playing a sea captain. I have the brown book (Janet Winter/Carolyn Savoy's book), and was going to follow the instructions therein for a 3/4 circle cape. Clear enough. My questions are as follows: 1). With what material should I line it? The cape itself will be a slightly felted black wool--thanks to listmembers for felting instructions! Most of the SCA cloaks I've seen were lined with a poly silky, but I'm reluctant to do that, as this cape will be used in the summertime. Also, silk is expensive; is there a less-expensive fabric that's a good choice? 2). For how many days should I allow it to hang before hemming it? 3). Should I attach the bottom of the lining to the bottom of the cape, or allow both layers to hang freely? 4). Should I interline the wool? Thanks for your help. Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com ------------------------------ From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 18:38:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: a final word on the cotton quagmire As I do not detect any progress other than quibbiling over how we all interpret words, I see no use in future debate until more clear original sources are presented. All we really seem to be able to conclude is that "cotton" by itself could mean a woolen or it could mean a plant fiber, or it could mean a fabric made from a plant fiber. Obviously we can only make blanket statements about the use of the word now in reference to speceific occurances of the word. Without the context of how the word is used each time, it would be futile to assign an accurate meaning. With that I will now quietly return to researching legal matters of 18th century indentured servants for another project, and hopefully will not see the word cotton standing alone in anything there ;-) Happy Easter, Bryan bph3213@acs.tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:43:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: Cotton On Mon, 10 Apr 1995 drickman@state.de.us wrote: > Some of you will remember back to how this all started. Someone wrote in > asking what kind of non-permanent marker she should use to layout the pattern > on her cotton-fabric (synthetic batting) Renaissance quilt for a SCA event > this summer. I wrote in suggesting that she think first about the > I believe in the original post, the quilt was for a Renaissance Faire, not an SCA event. The two groups are different with quite different goals in mind. Rhodry ------------------------------ End of Volume 284 -----------------------