From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 298, May 10, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages past noon May 5, but before may 6, not appearing in previous digests. Enjoy! Filip Topics: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:36:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Help with documentation >The african tribe where women wore rings around their necks was definitely >documented in Nat'l Geographic. I remember reading it as a kid and >being blown away. Along these same lines, and my source is the same magazine: the african tribes where earlobes are stretched large enough to hold a 3" diameter disk ... or bigger. I don't recall if this was only for females, or whether males did it too. Deb Baddorf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 95 10:55:21 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: Cordroy | I believe the words are "Cord du Roi" or "Cloth of the King", or possibly (on a | longshot) "Corps du Roi" or "Body of the King". The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition, says that corduroy is "probably from CORD + obsolete duroy, a coarse woolen fabric." If I was at home, I would check the OED, but I'm at work and don't have access to it here. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:56:51 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burns Subject: Re: Hair dye On Thu, 4 May 1995, Alison Kondo wrote: > > I seem to remember reading an article in the early 80's, height > of the punk phase, in which one of the interviewee's said she stiffened > & coloured her hair with Kool-Aid. She claimed the sugar stiffened the I've heard of this as well, but Kool-aid is a permament dye; you can also use it as a dye for cloth. Most theatre/costume shops have bright spray colors which wash out. I found this out as recently I made a Ms. Fizzle costume and wanted to dye my hair red. And all the sure to wash out the next day colors I could find were bright non real-looking ones. Susan Courney ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:36:17 +0800 From: Linda.McAllister@Eng.Sun.COM (Linda McAllister) Subject: Re: David and History > From grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Fri May 5 13:34 PDT 1995 > Return-Path: > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Date: 05 May 95 16:06:00 BST > Subject: David and History > To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > Content-Type: text > Content-Length: 2506 > > By and large I agree with David, and I don't think we would have a lot to > argue about, but (there is always a but!) I would like to make a few > points. > > 'Linen' in England as applied to household linen, is not an obsolete term - > they are still referred to as such, eg bed linen. Even though the most > common fabric is polyester, and most people are surprised if you point out > the source of the name. And a lot of us keep our cotton towels in the linen closet! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:37:42 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: Re: Help with documentation There was a fad among young ladies in Victorian England supposedly for drinking vinager or using a diluted water and arsenic mixture as a facial masque or wash to get that pallid, fashionable out of the sum(and therefore non-working sendentary look). Wonder how long with the current studies on sun exposure, tanning lamps and beds being bad for your skin, the pale look will come back in vogue. The Victorian belief that sun exposure was bad for a lady's skin and condusive to wrinkles Did have some validity, after all. As to young ladies damping down their muslin gowns to make them cling was probably not an English affectation, more than it might have been a French fad, and during 1795-1810 than the English Regency that was 1810-1820. Fashion plates of the period, especially from Heideloff's "Gallery of Fashion" and "Ackermann's" show English ladies more "bundled up" than their French couterparts. There were some fantastic extremes of fashion during the French Directorie period, but the influenza outbreaks during 1795-1805 probably had more to do with cold wet winters and shortages of food, especially during wartime than what ladies wore--men died of influenza too and doctors couldn't blame it on them wearing muslin gowns, cashmere shawls and sandals even in the coldest weather. Besides, only a very few could afford gowns and shawls of such expensive materials, especially as muslin couldn't stand up to hard wear and the needed frequent washing to keep it clean and white. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:41:40 -0400 From: Joaquinaz@aol.com Subject: Amish Clothing Well, it looks like I am the H-Costume contact in Pennsylvania! I just had a pleasant chat with Steve Scott at The People's Place in Intercourse, Pennsylvania. Steve wrote a book called _Why They Dress That Way_, which you may find useful. It really is more about current dress, but this is not significantly different from the dress of the late 19th century. The differences will be subtle variations of sleeve fullness, hem width, and whatever other ways a woman can find to vary the monotony of sewing endless quantities of a prescribed style for herself and her daughters. Melvin Gingrich has a book out called, I think, _400 Years of Mennonite Dress_., which may be interesting. If anyone has more questions, do ask me. I forgot to ask Steve about the buttons. It seems to me that I have seen men's jackets fastened with hooks and eyes, and their trousers supported by suspenders. Some trousers are laced in the back with no suspenders, however. And the women are very artful in their use of straight pins to fasten their clothing. If you weave the pins in and out the full length, the points will not jab you or your children! Joaquina H. Zacharias Joaquinaz@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:13:14 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Help with Documentation How about the lip plugs worn by some African & South American cultures? Also some of the Eskimo facial piercing. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 May 95 14:36:21 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... Hi,everyone. Regarding muslin gowns: I seem to recall reading somewhere that "muslin" then was not the same fabric we know as "muslin" now--in the U.S., the cheap undyed unbleached cotton fabric that we use for slopers and pockets and patterns and mockups etc. At risk of starting another inflammatory episode....anyone care to trace the etymology of "muslin"? While we are at it, I think "lingerie" originally referred to a fabric, but I've never seen a definition of "lingerie, the fabric". Anyone care to tackle that? Thanks! Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com men died of influenza too and doctors couldn't blame it on them wearing muslin gowns, cashmere shawls and sandals even in the coldest weather. Besides, only a very few could afford gowns and shawls of such expensive materials, especially as muslin couldn't stand up to hard wear and the needed frequent washing to keep it clean and white. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 May 95 17:43:46 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Hello again Having been one of the people involved in the cotton discussion, I agree with David for the most part. I do want to add a couple of points. 1. Consider the entire context of the subject. That is one thing I find that costume historians frequently fail to do; I think it is the fault of their training that they are not taught to consider the history, the trade routes, alliances, etc. that may affect clothing, fabric, etc. For example, the use of ivory or various furs in the late 20th century is a no-no because of endangered species. In future centuries, that should be taken into consideration when studying the history of fur clothing.Sumptuary laws are something else to take into consideration when discussing medieval or renaissance clothing.I think we did a good job of putting wool and cotton in context in our discussion. 2. Sometimes what is NOT said is as important as what IS said. Case in point that just came up to me. We have a fair amount of information and descriptions (however accurate) on what Highlanders wore in the 18th century. Nowhere does the literature mention a shirt (that I have been able to find). Does this mean that Highlanders didn't wear shirts? Or does it mean that the shirts they wore were so ordinary (and possibly so like English shirts) that they weren't worth mentioning? Pick one. I pick the second option. Since all the first hand descriptions mentioned clothing that was different or out of the ordinary, I have to assume that the shirts were no big deal. Maybe I'm wrong and there's a description out there somewhere that describes 18th century Highland shirts, but as long as it's missing, I have to make an educated guess. Any comments? By the way, welcome back. Came on with a bang, didn't you? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:18:51 PST From: SARAH@fpa.lh.pdx.edu Subject: Forwarded: Returned mail: Ambiguous address Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest Coast practiced tatooing(unisex), using labrets(a plug in the lower lip), and - in some bands such as Clatsops and Nootka - flattening of the head. All of these practices were given up after the European invasion in the early 19th century, as European males found it unattractive. Regards. Sarah Andrews-Collier Professor of Theater Arts ---------------- Sarah Andrews-Collier Professor of Theater Arts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 95 15:15:22 PDT From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@bangate.pge.com Subject: re:Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... Muslin then (c.1800) was more like a fine $25/yard Swiss batiste today. A truly fine dress could be drawn through a wedding ring (granted, these were skimpy dresses and tiny girls, but still...). Think about the fabrics from Martha Pullen's _Sew Beautiful_, not the 99 cents bin at your fabric outlet. I've been lucky enough to see some originals and they are very light and sheer, but I didn't dare ask if the DeYoung Museum had ever drawn one through a wedding ring. My dictionary gives the origin as French _mousseline_, Italina _mussolina_, from _Mussolo_, Mosul, Iraq. And _lingerie_ derives from (gasp) linen garments (_linge_ in French). Related topic: does anyone have any favorite mail-order fabric sources for good quality batiste? Heirloom sewing gets pretty expensive when you are running up a queen-sized _chemise a la reine_ rather than an infant's a christening gown. And does anyone have Northern California air times for Martha Pullen's TV show? I have not tracked it down in the TV grid, but I hear it exists. Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------[Reply - Original Message]---------------------- Sent by:"Gail DeCamp" Hi,everyone. Regarding muslin gowns: I seem to recall reading somewhere that "muslin" then was not the same fabric we know as "muslin" now--in the U.S., the cheap undyed unbleached cotton fabric that we use for slopers and pockets and patterns and mockups etc. At risk of starting another inflammatory episode....anyone care to trace the etymology of "muslin"? While we are at it, I think "lingerie" originally referred to a fabric, but I've never seen a definition of "lingerie, the fabric". Anyone care to tackle that? Thanks! Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 18:13:20 -0400 (EDT) From: jad@tct.com (Jo Davidsmeyer) Subject: Re: Help with documentation > > From: Deb > > > > Along these same lines, and my source is the same magazine: the african > > tribes where earlobes are stretched large enough to hold a 3" diameter > > disk ... or bigger. I've never heard of that for the ear-lobes; but similarly the Ubangi tribe made incisions in the lips to insert increasingly larger diameter disks. Both men and women of the upper class engaged in this cosmetic alteration. Some one else asked if tattooing was common in other cultures. In Samoa, it's a rite of passage/proof of bravery, etc. to have full and complex body tattoos from the knees up to the waist (yes, *everything* between the knees and waist). The process is quite painful, takes years to complete, and the result looks like tattooed shorts--it almost provides a premanent costume to the skin. Some historians believe that the tradition among British and American seamen of chest and arm tattoos originated from their contact with the Samoans and other Pacific Islanders. To this day, tattoos are quite common among men of the British and American navies. Though I'm told now that with the pop-culture rise of decorative tattoos, it's no longer considered fashionable among sailors. I know the original question was about fashion mutilations for women through history; I don't know if that was because the writer thought only women put themselves through such foolishness or that the writer only wanted to focus on the female aspects of dangerous fashions. As seen by the other responses, men have been as stupidly fashion conscious throughout history, endangering their health, as much as the women. When corsets were at their tightest and most constrictive, men were wearing very high and extremely tight collars. Somewhere I've read a medical text from the late 1800s detailing negative effects to the health from constant wearing of a certain type of male shirt collar that was in fashion. I'll have to see if I can dig that article up. Certainly high heels today are detrimental to women's health. But in previous centuries men also wore very high heels. I imagine they suffered the same consequences of the women of today. One native American tribe put the heads of young males in wooden vices so that the skull would grow in the proper sloped and pointed fashion that was considered a sign of beauty and royalty in that culture (this was mentioned on the "500 Nations" special that aired last week). Jo Davidsmeyer jad@tct.com > > -- Jo Davidsmeyer | jad@tct.com | STRANGE NEW WORLDS | PO Box 223 | Tallevast Fl 34270 | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 19:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Temporary maintainer \begindata{text,2438984} \textdsversion{12} \template{messages} Folks, Looks like I'll be gone for the next couple of weeks (last minute family emergency, nothing serious, just time-pressing). Since I've already been away for about a week, and am just starting to get things like subscriptions and the digest caught up, I've found a wonderful, generous sucke..umm, friend to take over list maintenance while I'm gone. For the next two weeks, h-costume-request will forward to Philip Cutone (known to the SCA crowd as Filipka). I'll still be logging in if you want to send me questions, but I can't guarantee a timely answer. Anyhow, see you all in a couple weeks, and Thanks Philip! toodles, gretchen (h-costume list maintainer) \enddata{text,2438984} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:40:45 -0700 From: cjsmith@fantasy.Stanford.EDU (CJ Smith) Subject: Re: Help with documentation > Somewhere I've read a medical text from the late 1800s detailing > negative effects to the health from constant wearing of a certain > type of male shirt collar that was in fashion. I'll have to see if > I can dig that article up. Related note - wallets worn in the back pocket (men usually) often cause damaging pressure to a nerve on one side and misalignment of the hips. I personally know one guy whose persistent numbness in one foot and leg caused him (on doctor's recommendation) to begin carrying his wallet in a front pocket. --CJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:44:13 -0700 From: cjsmith@fantasy.Stanford.EDU (CJ Smith) Subject: Re: Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... > While we are at it, I think "lingerie" originally referred > to a fabric, but I've never seen a definition of "lingerie, the > fabric". Anyone care to tackle that? One possibility: in modern day French, "linge" = linen, "lingerie" = linen things (more "underthings" than "towels/sheets/napkins" I think but I am not certain). Oh dear, three posts in a day, I promise I'll be quiet now. --CJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 95 17:34:24 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... | Regarding muslin gowns: I seem to recall reading somewhere that | "muslin" then was not the same fabric we know as "muslin" now That's pretty common for a fabric name to be applied to cheaper and cheaper materials over the years. If a new fabric is similar but superior to an existing fabric, merchants will usually give it a distinctive name to set it apart. However, if a new fabric is similar but inferior to an existing fabric, merchants will usually give it the name of the superior fabric, counting on name recognition to produce sales. In time, the public comes to associate the name with the newer, inferior material. Thus, there is a gradual erosion of quality. Another good example, besides muslin, is burlap, a name which used to be a material suitable for making gowns. A more modern example is Trigger -- the material sold under this tradename is noteably inferior to what was sold a few years ago. Then, of course, there are velvet, satin, and tafetta, all off which used to mean types of silk but are now commonly used to mean polyester or acetate. (So commonly that the real stuff is now called "silk velvet," etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 95 18:09:36 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: Help with documentation | Somewhere I've read a medical | text from the late 1800s detailing negative effects to the health from | constant wearing of a certain type of male shirt collar that was in fashion. | I'll have to see if I can dig that article up. You should take anything you find in a 19th Century medical text with a grain of salt. A great deal of what they "knew" was nonsense. Most physicians, for example, advised that bicycle readers must always wear "a suit of wool" -- winter *and* summer -- to avoid a dangerous chill. While this must certainly have been more aesthetically pleasing than the current neon spandex, I find it hard to believe it had any medical benefits whatsoever. In fact, I won't even limit this to the 19th and prior centuries. As recently as the 1960's, physicians were still warning against the "dangers" of pale skin and urging patients to get "healthy" sun tans. (I know this very well. My pediatrician never did figure out that fair skin was normal for people with blond hair!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 22:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Edi Vache Subject: Re: Hair dye if you're going to use wigs, go the whole hog & use a good dye (hot water & salt, the whole bit) & use LACQUER. i saw a girl w/ lacquered hair at the public image concert in 1981 & i still haven't forgotten it. stands straight up, no matter the length. from another friend w/ waist length hair, +edi+ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 298 -----------------------