From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 301, 5/10/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 301, May 10, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages through May 9 (part 1), not appearing in previous digests. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: Obi and corseting Rosaries Corduroy Costume Contest in Marin County ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 11:08:28 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Obi and corseting It's funny how many garments which later became instruments of discomfort, confinement, torture and deformity for women are said to have had their origins as support for physical activities. For example, corsets, stays and tight lacing generaly was supposed to have been started to lend support for horseback riding. Similarly, Chinese footbinding was said to have been pioneered by a court dancer who wound a silk scarf around her feet to support her on her toes. Now the obi lends assistance to maintaining a difficult posture, which otherwise might not be maintained. Does men's occupational or protective gear ever end up as a handicap and support more for stereotypes than activities? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 08:21:33 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: Rosaries I have an antique rosary (wooden beads, silver chain and cross) and would love to get a bit of information on the role and function of the rosary. (especially during the late 1700's) Even though I'm not Catholic, I know the rosary is utilized for prayer, but do not know the particular prayer. Are the beads significant and is there more than one prayer that would be used with the rosary? I've seen holy people (nuns) in movies portrayed with the rosary belted to their waist. Was and is this common? Would an average person in the late 1700's have done this also or just those who were part of a religious order? The rosary that I have is absolutely beautiful and I would love to be able to show it to people. It seems such a shame to just keep it in my jewelry box, but I want to be sure that I don't insult anyone or commit an offense against the Church by utilizing it incorrectly. I portray a midwife at living history re-enactments of the late 1700's and I think that most people during this time were deeply religious (Catholic?). What would be correct as far as the rosary? Thanks for any info! :-) Ladyspnr {aka Karri Riedel} @->->- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 95 10:11:42 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Corduroy To Edward Wright, and with all due respect to the OED, if the etymology of "corduroy" is, as the OED says, unknown, then why does it reject the "cord du roy" (cloth of the king) origin, which as it also said, was around as long as the cloth of that name has been around.Seems like a reasonable origin story to me. What does the OED say about "denim"? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 95 10:30:07 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Rosaries To the query about rosaries, yes the beads mean something. The "decades" or groups of 10 beads, are "Ave Maria," or "Hail Mary" beads. You say a "Hail Mary" prayer for each bead. The individual beads ars "Paternosters". You say an "Our Father" prayer for each of them. I think (if I remember correctly from my Catholic childhood), you start praying the rosary by crossing yourself with the large cross on the end of it, then recite the Creed. Each decade is represented by a paternoster and 10 ave marias. The number of decades on the rosary represents the number of joys and sorrows of Mary. Nuns do indeed wear large, plain rosaries on their belts. When I portray a French settler for French & Indian War encampments, I carry a rosary on my belt. You could, and were encouraged to, recite the rosary several times a day. This could be done while performing daily chores, so you carried it with you. If I have gotten any of this wrong, I'm sure some one will let me know. I'm writing all this from memory, which is faulty. Hope this helps. KAthleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 95 15:39:48 BST From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Subject: Re: Rosaries I'm not Catholic either, but used to hang around with catholic friends, they used the rosary like an abacus, to keep count of prayers. For each bead one repeats the Hail Mary, the text of which is: Hail Mary, full of grace blessed art thou amongst women blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ Holy Mary mother of god pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death The Catholic church where I heard this prayer used a modernised version of the whole service which eliminated the thees & thous, the Lord's prayer had been updated but somehow the Hail Mary had escaped the translation into modern English. Perhaps it was the force of habit, so many people had repeated the old version so many times they couldn't handle new words? In the past the prayer was said in Latin, I don't know when the Catholic church abandoned Latin services but it was fairly recently. In Latin the title (& first two words) is "Ave Maria", but I can't get any further than that. Quite possibly if you were in the 1700s you'd be muttering "Ave Maria" rather than "Hail Mary", but you'd need someone who knows more about church history to tell you for sure. I've never seen anybody outside holy orders wear rosaries at their waist, but now that you mention it I do recall seeing nums wandering around with them at the waist. Maybe it's an attempt to avoid the jewellery connotations? In that case since different orders have different attitudes to worldly ostentation perhaps some would carry it at the waist & other round the neck? Anyone know more about the dress codes of religeous orders than me? Incidentally on the subject of religeon & clothing I've seen chasubles (is that the word for the semi-circular cloak?) & stoles from 1100 which look pretty much like the modern thing, has religeous dress frozen in time, & if so was the style of clothing now worn by priests once every day wear somewhere? If so where & when did it come from? Some of it seems very odd compared with normal clothing: when I was a choir girl we wore heavy cassocks topped with a light weight surplice, it felt like getting dressed backwards: putting your shirt on top of your coat! When I checked my dictionary the word cassock comes from a word for a turkish horseman's coat which explains why the thing feels like a coat, does the Turkish connection mean that the costume derived from the Byzantine church? I know it was very strong in early medieval times & the costume of the modern clergy seems to go back at least that far. The surplice comes from super-pelisse that is something worn over the pelisse, so what's a pelisse? Where & when was that worn? Was the cassock & surplice combination always lightweight over heavyweight? Perhaps it's intended to show off the fine cloth of the surplus? (Certainly the linen used in our surpluses was the finest I've ever come across, but if the surplice is a "show off" garment why is it so plain? The chasuble makes sense as a top layer, that comes from the latin casula for hooded cloak, if your cassock didn't have a hood I can see why you'd stick something on top that did, it's the surplice in the middle that mystifies me. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 07:44:43 -0700 From: Deborah Anne Doyle Subject: Costume Contest in Marin County This may be of interest to some of your readers: If you were inspired by the recent ART OF STAR WARS Exhibit in San Francisco, now you've got the chance to display the results of your imagination! Enter the Creatures and Models Exhibit at the Marin County Fair. The exhibit has a definite science-fiction/fantasy flavor to it and creativity is the key. The costume categories are new this year. Get out your paints, your glue guns, your T-squares, your sewing machine, your servos and above all, your ideas. Original designs as well as pieces inspired by other media are welcome. For the sixth year in a row, entries will be judged by senior creature, model and costume makers from Industrial Light & Magic and then displayed at the Marin County Fair over the 4th of July weekend (June 30-July 4, 1995). Although the enntry forms must be submitted by May 27,you don't have to deliver your *whatever-it-is* until June 17 (June 16, if shipped). Entry fees are minimal. It's lots of fun. Some of the definitions: CREATURE: A representation of a being. It's alive! Sentient or sensational, awesome or awful. Your best friend or worst nightmare. Bring it to life and bring it to us! MODEL: A vehicle, habitat, machine or device. It's inanimate! An engineering marvel from inner or outer space. A dream or a design. From the past, present or future. Build it and they will come. COSTUME: Garb characteristic to a particular time, universe or species.Enter a complete ensemble or simply a hat, a weapon or a shoe. We encourage projects submitted by groups (families, school or community groups, etc.). There are some size and weight limitations for the pieces, but not many. Past entries have included: paintings, masks, life-sized velociraptors, metal or fabric sculptures, swords, dioramas and more. The contest is open to all California residents from the age of six years and above. Visit the Marin County Web page and follow the link for the Creatures & Models Exhibit for more details. www.co.marin.ca.us For a hard copy brochure, phone the Fair offices at 415/499-6400. Please e-mail me if you have any questions. Deborah Doyle zorrah@well.com.sf Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 95 08:52:55 -0700 From: dlynch@wv.MENTORG.COM (Diane Lynch @ PCB x5713) Subject: (Fwd) Re: Rosaries Okay, I was raised Catholic and can shed some light on the prayers for a rosary. There should be sets of beads, ten in a set as I recall, separated by single-bead sets. There should also be a smaller set of beads leading to the cross. For the single beads, I was taught to say the "Glory to God" and "Our Father" prayers. For the sets of ten beads, one says the "Hail Mary" prayer. (Incidentally, the first line that Jennifer quoted has one additional phrase: "Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.") If you want to know the words to the other two prayers I mentioned above, you can send email to me off list. All three prayers were said for the small set leading to the cross, with one additional prayer that as a child I could never remember. It was one of those prayers for intercession, and as I recall, it was said when you reached the cross. Now I'm curious. Does your antique cross have divisions? --- Forwarded mail from jennyb@pdd.3com.com To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I'm not Catholic either, but used to hang around with catholic friends, they used the rosary like an abacus, to keep count of prayers. For each bead one repeats the Hail Mary, the text of which is: Hail Mary, full of grace blessed art thou amongst women blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ Holy Mary mother of god pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death The Catholic church where I heard this prayer used a modernised version of the whole service which eliminated the thees & thous, the Lord's prayer had been updated but somehow the Hail Mary had escaped the translation into modern English. Perhaps it was the force of habit, so many people had repeated the old version so many times they couldn't handle new words? In the past the prayer was said in Latin, I don't know when the Catholic church abandoned Latin services but it was fairly recently. In Latin the title (& first two words) is "Ave Maria", but I can't get any further than that. Quite possibly if you were in the 1700s you'd be muttering "Ave Maria" rather than "Hail Mary", but you'd need someone who knows more about church history to tell you for sure. I've never seen anybody outside holy orders wear rosaries at their waist, but now that you mention it I do recall seeing nums wandering around with them at the waist. Maybe it's an attempt to avoid the jewellery connotations? In that case since different orders have different attitudes to worldly ostentation perhaps some would carry it at the waist & other round the neck? Anyone know more about the dress codes of religeous orders than me? Incidentally on the subject of religeon & clothing I've seen chasubles (is that the word for the semi-circular cloak?) & stoles from 1100 which look pretty much like the modern thing, has religeous dress frozen in time, & if so was the style of clothing now worn by priests once every day wear somewhere? If so where & when did it come from? Some of it seems very odd compared with normal clothing: when I was a choir girl we wore heavy cassocks topped with a light weight surplice, it felt like getting dressed backwards: putting your shirt on top of your coat! When I checked my dictionary the word cassock comes from a word for a turkish horseman's coat which explains why the thing feels like a coat, does the Turkish connection mean that the costume derived from the Byzantine church? I know it was very strong in early medieval times & the costume of the modern clergy seems to go back at least that far. The surplice comes from super-pelisse that is something worn over the pelisse, so what's a pelisse? Where & when was that worn? Was the cassock & surplice combination always lightweight over heavyweight? Perhaps it's intended to show off the fine cloth of the surplus? (Certainly the linen used in our surpluses was the finest I've ever come across, but if the surplice is a "show off" garment why is it so plain? The chasuble makes sense as a top layer, that comes from the latin casula for hooded cloak, if your cassock didn't have a hood I can see why you'd stick something on top that did, it's the surplice in the middle that mystifies me. Jennifer --- End of forwarded mail from jennyb@pdd.3com.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:36:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Re: Rosaries >Even though I'm not Catholic, ... Me neither, but I used to be married to one, so I'll start, until someone who is, gives you a better answer. > Are the beads significant and is there more than one prayer that would be >used with the rosary? Each bead represents a prayer. Most frequent are the "Our Father" probably known to you if you are any kind of a non-catholic Christian, as "The Lord's Prayer"; and the "Hail Mary". Each "decade" of the rosary (you'll notice there are groups of ten small beads divided by larger ones) is a repetition. Seems to me there would be a major culminating prayer when you get to the crucifix, but I don't know about that part. Even the old generation, 2nd gen. American-Polish grandmothers never seemd to actually say the rosary any more, in the family I was married into. > I've seen holy people (nuns) in movies portrayed with the rosary belted to > their waist. Was and is this common? I think this is accurate. To relate this to historic costume, the one thing I *have* been instructed would insult, is wearing the rosary around one's neck like a necklace. > Would an average person in the late > 1700's have done this also or just those who were part of a religious order? I'm wondering where you are locating your midwife in the late 1700's.. I'm not aware of many lay Catholics in the Americas then. But I'm not aware of a lot of things that *are*. :) Joyous M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sek Subject: Re: Rosaries It has been a long long time since I have used the rosary. Other responses that I have seen to you are correct. The prayer that was said when you reached the cross was the "Apostles Creed". I would suggest however, that you visit a local Catholic Church and get them to supply you with the history and proper use of the Rosary. I can't see how the use of the Rosary at re-enactments would offend anyone. The only offence I am aware of is the state of holyness that a rosary has. I would assume that the rosary was blessed by the church at some point in time if not repeatedly. Therefore the worst thing that could happen to a "blessed" object such as your rosary would be to have touch the ground or to be used in a undignified manner. Probably one of the reason why the rosary was hooked into the wearer's belt and the other because the older rosaries were very long. Today's rosaries are a shorten version. Again the local parish priest is the best source of help here in understanding what you have and how it should be treated. Regards, *********************************************************************** John Sek,C.E.T.,C.S.T. jsek@freenet.niagara.com 222 Emerick Avenue telephone: 1-905-871-7449 Fort Erie, ON, CANADA L2A 2W5 fax/modem: 1-905-871-0696 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 11:24:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" Subject: Re: Rosaries Hi there...just a little catholic correction :-) Couldn't help myself. In addition to the Hail Mary, within the rosary one also says other prayers, like the Our Father and Glory Be... but enough on religion. If anyone wants more, they can email me direct. Peggy Sue O'Brien a "good catholic" girl....kind of On Tue, 9 May 1995 jennyb@pdd.3com.com wrote: > > Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ADD > blessed art thou amongst women (and) > blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ ^^^^^^ DELETE > Holy Mary mother of god > pray for us sinners > now, and at the hour of our death > > The Catholic church where I heard this prayer used a modernised version of > the whole service which eliminated the thees & thous, the Lord's prayer had > been updated but somehow the Hail Mary had escaped the translation into modern > English. Perhaps it was the force of habit, so many people had repeated the > old version so many times they couldn't handle new words? > > In the past the prayer was said in Latin, I don't know when the Catholic > church abandoned Latin services but it was fairly recently. In Latin the title > (& first two words) is "Ave Maria", but I can't get any further than that. > Quite possibly if you were in the 1700s you'd be muttering "Ave Maria" rather > than "Hail Mary", but you'd need someone who knows more about church history > to tell you for sure. > > I've never seen anybody outside holy orders wear rosaries at their waist, but > now that you mention it I do recall seeing nums wandering around with them > at the waist. Maybe it's an attempt to avoid the jewellery connotations? In > that case since different orders have different attitudes to worldly > ostentation perhaps some would carry it at the waist & other round the neck? > Anyone know more about the dress codes of religeous orders than me? > > Incidentally on the subject of religeon & clothing I've seen chasubles (is that > the word for the semi-circular cloak?) & stoles from 1100 which look pretty > much like the modern thing, has religeous dress frozen in time, & if so was > the style of clothing now worn by priests once every day wear somewhere? If > so where & when did it come from? > > Some of it seems very odd compared with normal clothing: when I was a choir > girl we wore heavy cassocks topped with a light weight surplice, it felt like > getting dressed backwards: putting your shirt on top of your coat! > > When I checked my dictionary the word cassock comes from a word for a > turkish horseman's coat which explains why the thing feels like a coat, does > the Turkish connection mean that the costume derived from the Byzantine > church? I know it was very strong in early medieval times & the costume of > the modern clergy seems to go back at least that far. > > The surplice comes from super-pelisse that is something worn over the pelisse, > so what's a pelisse? Where & when was that worn? > > Was the cassock & surplice combination always lightweight over heavyweight? > Perhaps it's intended to show off the fine cloth of the surplus? (Certainly > the linen used in our surpluses was the finest I've ever come across, but if > the surplice is a "show off" garment why is it so plain? The chasuble makes > sense as a top layer, that comes from the latin casula for hooded cloak, if > your cassock didn't have a hood I can see why you'd stick something on top > that did, it's the surplice in the middle that mystifies me. > > Jennifer > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 301 -----------------------