From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 304, 5/12/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 304, May 12, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages May 10, not appearing in previous digests. There were some problems at first, but I believe I've ironed them out. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: Mess Jacket Necklines Bloom Woolen clothing & bicycling costume Altering Women's Bodies 18/19 C shoulders, deportment, corsetry Dresses through wedding ring Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman documentation on maiming Ukranian Costume hats Accessing h-costume archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:15:04 -0400 From: Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Subject: Re: Mess Jackets? Another one that falls into my bailiwick (I've been a US Navy officer for about 15 years.) On US and British ships since well before the Rev War, enlisted food has traditionally been paid-for by the Navy, but officers must chip in to pay for their own, which is prepared and served by enlisted stewards. The club of officers who eat together in the Wardroom (which may or may not include the commanding officer) and the associated fund pool is a "mess". I understand that before the advent of cafeteria-style service for enlisteds, sailors were also divided into messes of ten or so men, who got their food from the galley in a common pot, to be shared out in their quarters. Nowadays, the formality and quality/expense of daily mess meals varies greatly from ship to ship (and captain to captain), as does the license to bring guests to individual meals. When my (LT) husband's ship was in port, I was a frequent guest at wardroom meals (this was not common for wives, but I was also an officer so exception was made). I paid for the privilege both in cash and in having to listen to the captain hold forth, and, as the junior officer present (I was just an ensign), be served last and have my plate taken away first when the captain indicated he was finished, often before I was quite ready. It was an education. Various traditions are associated with the wardroom/mess system, including the "Dining In" and the "Dining Out". A "Dining In" is a formal dinner for mess members only (no spouses or guests), with entertainment provided by the company. I remember singing "Eddystone Light" at one. Alcohol is evident, and a long series of traditional toasts are mandated. The junior officer present is "Mr. or Madame Chair", who must be petitioned before a member leaves the room or does any number of other things; failure leads to fines which replenish the mess coffers/pay for the evening. It can get very silly; as Madame Chair I once fined an officer who fell backwards out a (ground-floor) window for exiting without permission. A "Dining Out" is nowhere near as much fun; it's your classic formal banquet with spouses, Honored Guests, and boring speeches. You do some of the same toasts, though. One or the other is an annual event at any command worth its salt. All this sounds very Hornblowerish, doesn't it? Which brings us back to the original costumery question. In today's Navy, the mess jacket is a short tuxedo-type jacket (no tails), often with miniature medals displayed on the left breast, worn at evening formal occasions. There is a black version for winter and a white jacket for summer wear. Both take a black bowtie (a triangular neckband for women), cummerbund, and black pants (long slit skirt for women). There is a tiara for women CDR and above, when appropriate. Daytime formal events are more likely to prescribe "Choker Whites" in summer (a high-necked white cotton outfit) and "Dinner Dress Blues" in winter (the normal dress blue uniform, but with medals instead of ribbons. These both may involve wearing a sword, but I can't remember if mess-dress does. Hope this helps, Lynn (L. A. Title LCDR USNR) mice, beef jerky and fabric do mix, but not in the same drawer... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Mess Jackets? Author: Alison Kondo at Internet Date: 5/9/95 11:35 AM I'm not a military costume person, & was wondering what the difference between a mess jacket & a uniform jacket was. What occasions was the mess jacket worn for? Also, what was the social significance of the "mess". From the little I've read, it seems to have been an officers "club" rather than just a place to eat. Is this right? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 95 17:01:59 EDT From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Mess Jacket Alison Kondo asks: > I'm not a military costume person, & was wondering what > the difference between a mess jacket & a uniform jacket was. The following answers are all British Empire/Commonwealth answers. Mess kit is an order of dress, and a mess jacket is a sort of uniform jacket. It is always waist-length. It is made of barathea or doeskin, and generally either scarlet, rifle green (for rifle regiments) or dark blue (some cavalry regiments, the RAF/R*AF and the RN/R*N). The conceit behind the patterns of mess kit is that one is wearing one's full dress jacket, but in a relaxed way -- that is, partially unbuttoned, with the tails cut off. Mess jackets are faced at the collar and, often, the cuffs; generally in branch-of-service colours, but in the case of the Air Forces in midnight blue to match the jacket. Facings are generally also wool, but occasionally tafetta. Navy and Air Force mess kit sometimes has a button-and-chain closure. Other sorts of mess kit are worn open or closed only at the collar. There are three main patterns: high-collared, Highland and tailed. High-collared mess kit has a standing full-dress collar, which is always closed over a stiff shirt collar. The centre back tapers to a point. It is worn open down the front over a full waistcoat which has a stripe of contrasting braid up the front centre. The waistcoat is worn in facing colour, or branch-of-service colour. It is sometimes worn with a cummerbund (in branch colour) and boiled shirt instead of the waistcoat. Regimental or branch collar dogs are worn on the collar. Highland mess kit has the collar folded back in lapels, like a blazer. It is generally worn over a three- or four-button waistcoat, boiled or pleated shirt, folded or winged collar, and black bow tie. Collar dogs are worn on the lapels. Tailed mess kit is worn by senior naval officers, and is essentially the old tailed naval full-dress coat. Rank can be worn on the cuffs (naval and air force), on the shoulder straps, on gold cords, or not at all (in some regiments). Senior NCOs wear their rank on their sleeves in the same positions they would be worn on full dress (sergeants on the upper arm, warrant officers on the lower arm). Miniature medals and qualification badges are worn with mess kit. The trousers worn are generally overalls in dark blue, dark green or black, with a contrasting stripe (yellow for cavalry, red or something else for the rest of the world). Highland regiments wear either trews or kilts. Half-wellington boots are worn, with spurs for the cavalry; and Highlanders wear brogues, diced hose and a sgian dubh. Aside from a stick and a sgian dubh, weapons are not carried with mess kit. A full dress peaked cap or undress cap is worn with mess kit; and either white or buff leather gloves. > What occasions was the mess jacket worn for? Mess kit is roughly analogous to black tie. It is never worn on duty. It is generally worn at black-tie dinners and balls. It can be ordered for a white tie dinner as well. > Also, what was the > social significance of the "mess". From the little I've read, it > seems to have been an officers "club" rather than just a place to > eat. Is this right? It is quite right. The mess is an officer's second home -- much like a club. It is, as well, a place to eat, however. For additional information you might have a look at Byron Farwell's very readable _Mr. Kipling's Army_, or some of his other stuff. Cheers, Aryk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 07:56:36 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: Re: necklines I am going to be doing an Elizabethan costume for a 25" doll andwould also appreciate necklines on the shift/chemise. Sources I've come across indicate these were made with either high banded necklines to support a ruff or made with low drawstring necklines. This doesn't seem to be borne out by a lot of the portraits from the era since a lot of high necklines on the women fill in the low square cut of the gown and are sometimes lavishly embroidered or even jewelled(a partlet, perhaps), or show a low cut chemise smoothly following the low neckline of the gown with blackwork or flat(not gathered)lace just peeping above the gown neckline. I am going to be altering and existing Elizabethan costume doll pattern to make it more authentic. I have access to Hunnisett's and Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion 1550-1620" Right now I plan to make a rather modest neck ruff and leave the shoulderplate bare to show up the sculpting and hopefully my good painting(shadowing and blushing) but will fill in with a sheer partlet if that is authentic. I've gotten a reputation of doing pretty authentic costuming on my dolls,( though I have a lot to learn)so any help by you experts on the list is appreciated. I'm going to make the costume more circa 1560-1570 if that is a help, to avoid the drum farthingale and excesses of the 1580-1600 timeframe. The farthingale is nearly done thanks to Hunnisett's book and the hip roll is finished. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 95 08:39:09 PST From: "Deena Monchick" Subject: Necklines I'm in the midst of creating several German outfits, both for men and women, from the mid 1500's. I'm curious what the correct shirt neckline would be for these outfits. I thought a drawstring was okay, but perhaps I am mistaken, what is a better option? Thanks, Deena ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 9:24:23 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: Bloom Yesterday I received my copy of "Bloom", the catalog for the new exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, March 30 to August 20, 1995. The catalog was written by Richard Martin and Harold Koda, cost $9.95 (without tax or shipping), is only 32 pages long, 6" x 9", with extremely high quality color photographs. "'Bloom' is a celebration of flowers in fashion." Clothing dates range from 1616 to 1993, and include jackets, dresses, and accessories. There are only two dresses that fall within my period of interest, 1840-1865. 1) 1864 dinner dress, silk, low square neck (could be worn with chemisette, but not displayed with one), bishop sleeves pleated into the armseye, fitted front fastening bodice, pleated skirt (looks like knife pleats in front, but may have box pleats in the back). The fabric is a floral stripe of chine' or warp-weave, which gives the "rose"-colored and buff roses and leaves a slightly blurred appearance. The stripes are regular, with about 6" wide of olive morie' bands, a very narrow black or dark blue stripe, an approximately 1 1/4" wide one thread horizontally woven cream and black or dark blue band (difficult to describe), and then an eight inch wide panel of the roses on a cream background. All stripes run vertically on the cress. A stripe of the olive is cut to form the waistband. Buttons appear to be functional and are dark green, crochet covered. The trim is very interesting--it is also crocheted of olive thread in a hexagonal pattern, with steel beads on the side of each hexagon. Strips of this trim about 6 inches wide are draped across the bodice front, one just above the waist and one just below the bust, held in place on either side by four rose-colored crocheted circles. Small satin colored balls hang from the bottom of the crochet and they are olive, red, cream white, and blue. This same crochet trim with balls is used around the neckline, at the armseye, down the outer seam of the sleeve and around the bottom edge of the sleeve. It is very beautiful. 2) An olive green 1856 silk gauze ball dress, five flounces, fitted pointed bodice, low neck, matching bertha, short balloon sleeves with short gathered sleeve over that. Each flounce is edged in darker green fringe and features rose-patterned chine' ribbon bands. The bertha used the same fabric but adds an olive green ribbon ruching between the roses and the fringe, and there is a bow of the rose chine' at center front. The short over-sleeve also uses the roses and fringe. The skirt is knife pleated, the bow at center front has an inverted V cut in the ends of the ties. Other items in the catalog include: 1. English woman's jacket, 1616 2. French robe a la francaise, ca. 1775 3. Christian Dior ball gown, ca. 1950 4. Christobal Balenciaga ball gown, winter 1947-1948 5. Adolfo evening ensemble, 1975 6. Another Adolfo evening ensemble, 1975 7. Isaac Mizrahi dress, spring 1992 8. Perry Ellis ensemble, 1985 9. Valentino evening dress, 1969 10. Anthony Muto evening dress, 1965 11. Koji Tatsuno coat, 1993 12. Koji Tatsuno dress, 1993 13. English (?) robe a la francaise, 1740's 14. French Man's court ensemble, 1770's 15. French Man's court ensemble, 1780's 16. Mariano Fortuny evening jacket, ca. 1945 17. Mariano Fortuny evening jacket, 1930's 18. Jean-Philippe Worth evening dress, ca. 1898 19. Hubert de Givenchi evening dress, ca. 1958 20. Yves Saint Laurent cocktail ensemble, ca. 1967 21. Willa Kim, cocoon coat, 1988 21. Hubert de Givenchy evening bolero, 1952 22. American bonnet ca. 1868 (looks more like a hat than a bonnet) 23. Elsa Schiaparelli hat, summer 1940 24. Elsa Schiaparelli hat, summer 1951 25. Mainbocher (?) pair of gloves, ca. 1938 26. Jean Patou by Christian Lacroix turban, 1986 Thought this might be of interest to some. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 09:32:14 CDT From: SANDY STAEBELL Subject: Woolen clothing & bicycling costume Just a few comments to tie in with this thread: One reason many dress reformers advocated woolen or flannel clothing was their concern with how clothing with a different fiber content affected the various parts of the body. In Dress Reform: A Series of Lectures Delivered in Boston, on Dress as It Affects the Health of Women (edited by Abba Goold Woolson; Boston: Roberts Brothers, 1874) the following passages appear: p. 195 author compares the trunk of the body to "as many varied zones of temperature as the planet it inhabits." Mary J. Safford-Blake, M.D. wrote "In woman's dress, from six to ten thickness are found, as a rule and not as an exception, to encase the thoracic region, while the lower extremities are covered, more frequently than otherwise, with but one thickness and that of cotton. Under such circumstances, an effort to obtain proper warmth is usually made by adding an extra supply of skirts, although these garments contribute much more to pressure about the waist, weight upon the hips, and undue heat in the kidneys and abdominal organs, than to warmth in the lower extremities. But it is in these lower parts of the body that heat is most needed, because the circulation of the blood is less active and an under-current of air around them is apt to produce chills. (p. 11) Writers of domestic advice manuals also sometimes weighed in with their thoughts on what constituted the proper underwear. Aunt Sophronia advises in The Complete Home: An Encyclopedia of Domestic Life and Affairs (Philadelphia: Bradley, Garretson, 188?, p. 120) that "if summer and winter, we would wear a flannel garment next the skin, varying the thickness of the garment with the change of season, we should, provided we kept the feet in sufficiently thick shoes, very seldom be affected by changes in the temperature." While the above quotations don't really offer much to the discussion of bicycling costume, they do offer at least some insight into the general opinions of some dress reformers concerning the merits of flannel versus cotton underwear. Sandy Staebell Kentucky Museum staebsl@wkuvx1.wku.edus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:31:13 -0700 From: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Subject: Re: Altering Women's Bodies Ann Welborne wrote: > this class) are so quick to condemn the Asians, but have no idea > of the atrocities inflicted upon girls and women in Europe or America. If > you know of these references, or can think of any more examples, I'd be > most appreciative. The first thing that came to my mind was breast implants and liposuction. Women are still willing to undergo major surgery, with its dangers and scars, in order to have the body contours that are currently considered desirable. Yes, men too, but not to the same degree or in the same numbers. Christina ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 95 13:52:34 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: 18/19 C shoulders, deportment, corsetry OBSERVATION If I look at the portraits of 18C( and 17C too), and 19c women I notice a difference. When the portrait shows a SIDE view the 18C woman has her shoulders held far back. So far back that the shoulder line is BEHIND the neck line. 19C portraits tend to have the shoulders in line with the neck line. My personal attempts at recreating the 18C shoulder line using a portrait as a guide and a mirror show that it is difficult and painful to recreate this shape. POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS 1. I am wrong - there is no difference in the shoulders of 18C and 19C women. 2. There is a difference, and it was due to the painter painting the fashionable ideal, not the reality. We all know how truthful fashion photographs are today ! 3. There is a difference and it was due to "that was how you carried yourself in 18C." 4. There is a difference and it is due to the 18C corset, by means of its shoulder straps, pulling the shoulders back to achieve the fashionable shoulder shape. 5. There is a difference and it was achieved through girls having daily deportment lessons from an early age. In the 18C backboards, shoulder braces and pin collars were used to help ( force ?) achieve an upright posture. Did these generate this different shoulder line ? (mail me if you want descriptions of these household devices). 6. Some other explanation that I have missed! IMPLICATIONS If there were these differences between the 18 and 19 cents - why? The 19 C was also very keen on an upright figure, deportment lessons etc. The use of backboards is recorded up to the 1890s. Why did the 19c shoulder line change ? Was it the impact of the Empire fashions around 1800 ? I look forward to your views and your suggestions. Dee 100545.3105 @compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 95 18:47:22 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 > > Muslin then (c.1800) was more like a fine $25/yard Swiss batiste > today. A truly fine dress could be drawn through a wedding ring > (granted, these were skimpy dresses and tiny girls, but still...). Is this supposed to be the girl's own wedding ring, in which case a tiny girl has no advantage? Did men wear wedding rings at the time? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: cpecourt@mhv.net Subject: Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman On Tue, 9 May 1995, Carol Cannon wrote: > > Greetings, folks! > > I was just hoping that someone in one of these two forums would be able > to help Tammy. I'm certain someone can. Many thanks. Please note, the > info is to go to the address below, NOT to cjcannon. Again, > thanks!--Carol/Grannia > > From: tjdnjisp@crl.com (Tamara A. Smith) > Does anyone know where I can find patterns, books, etc on what > 15th - 16th cent. Scottish women wore? > Also, does anyone know where I can find large size (24+) patterns > for the Renaissance Faire? > please drop me an email at tjdnjisp@crl.com. > Thanks, > Tammy > > Hello.. Can I second the requestfor patterns, info etc on what Scottish women wore in the 15th century. I have been searching forever and am at my whits end... Many many thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:26:03 -0400 From: Ann.J.Welborne.2@nd.edu (Anna Welborne) Subject: documentation on maiming Thank you to all who've replied concerning maiming for beauty. I greatly appreciate all your suggestions. Sorry it takes so long to reply...I'm on the digest, and I guess mail got stuck somewhere along the way. Just in the past hour, I've received over 100 mail messages, after not getting any for 2 days. Yes, the focus of the project is on maiming that women have done (or have had done .to. them), but the male aspects are equally interesting and certainly applicable. And yes, PLEASE!! I would like specific references, if possible. If you'd rather e-mail me privately, rather than taking up bandwidth, that's fine too. Thanks again. I'm working on compiling all the refs, and if anyone is interested, I'll be glad to send you a copy when I'm done. Anna Welborne (digest lurker) ******************************************************************** ***** Anna Welborne Press on, mi amigo! Press on, mon amie! welborne.2@nd.edu Walk on in the face of the mystery. Notre Dame University When the night hides the light, Philosophy Department And the journey is long, Notre Dame, IN 46556 Tie your shoes, my dear friend. Walk on. **************** Sighthounds ---- Addicted to Speed! ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:56:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Ukranian Costume Sorry for the drift back to an old topic, but for those interested I've finally gotten hold of my extra "History of Ukranian Costume" books and I have several for sale. Please contact me if you're interested. History of Ukranian Costume Yuri Tkach Bayda Books, Australia 1986 garb, Ukranian >From the time of the Scythians (600BC) to the late 17th century ...eliz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 95 13:57:31 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: hats For the woman who was interested in making a Regency bonnet... there's a book called "From the Neck Up: An Illustrated Guide to Hatmaking", by Denise Dreher, which would probably help a lot. ISBN 0-941082-00-8, Library of Congress 80-83507; available from Madhatter Press, P.O. Box 7480, Minneapolis, MN 55407. $20. (at least as of 1981, when it was published. I've seen it for sale at various places in the last few years.) The author is an expert milliner who has studied theatrical and historical hatmaking, and the book is aimed at those with no prior knowledge of hatmaking. It has a list of over a hundred suppliers, sixty historical and modern hat patterns, and a bibliography. lynn_meyer@intuit.com Halima de la Lucha in the SCA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 95 14:54:16 PST From: "Cynthia Barnes" Subject: Accessing h-costume archives >I remember seeing some addresses for catalogs/wig companies posted >here where one can obtain some decent wigs for productions on a >budget. Alas, I deleted them before I realized that I would need them. >If anyone has that info, please ... For the benefit of our newer members: You can pick any and all old messages (in digest form) up by following these simple instructions. Similarly, you can find the previous comments on any previous h-costume discussion. Sample topics include: corset construction, names of garments & fabrics, construction techniques and where to purchase items. --cin cynthia@caere.com -=-=-=-=- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com The index is available from my machine, "lunch", using some automatic commands. Simply send the words: index h-costume as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and Majordomo will send you back an index of available files. Then use the command: get h-costume filename (where "filename" is the name of the file you want) to retrieve the named files. Thus if you wanted the h-costume file called "TOPICS" you'd send: get h-costume TOPICS as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and Majordomo would send you back the file called TOPICS. It's easy! Try it out and don't worry about getting back some error messages -- read them and experiment because you can't break anything. :-) Good luck! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 304 -----------------------