From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 339, 7/12/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 339, July 12, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Woad Early medieval leather dyes/colorants Costume museums in the Low Countries 1640 shoe patterns Victorian hairstyles Historical hair/coverings Book of the Courtier Dates in Braveheart Costume bookstore (SF Bay) ISO: greatkilt info Questions about Elizabethan trunkhose A costumers quickguide to touring Italy Body forms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:32:47 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 333, 7/7/95 Re: woad warrior (love it!) I have absolutely no documentation for this, but I thought the Romans wrote about the ancient savage Britons "painting themselves blue" (which is not to say the Picts didn't do it, too) Anyone know anything about this?? Where do you get woad plants / seeds?? I'd love to try growing some, too. Is it like indigo? IS it indigo?? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 12:40:02 -0600 From: Catherine Kinsey Subject: leather >>>>>>>>>>>> I've never been to the Leather Museum in London, I've heard there's one in Northampton too though. Whilst we're on the topic of leatherwork, anybody got anty ideas on early medieval colourants for leather? I know the stuff was coloured, did it use linseed oil based paints like coloured wood? Or were there special dyes for leather? Jennifer <<<<<<<<<<<< Yes, there is a leather museum in Northhampton, or at least there was 10 years ago when I visited it. I remember jacks, bombards and gloves but no shoes. Then again, I wasn't interested in them at that time. According to my source (a leatherworker who reproduces medieval pieces), a common medieval dye for leather was the lees from wine. It was used to stain and darken. Another was beeswax that had been colored with natural dyes, the beeswax itself would also darken the leather. For colors themselves the period paints were often used. Cat' ckinsey@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:10:36 EST Subject: Re[2]: costume museums-Netherlands&Belgium? Another place I recommend is the Gruthhuis Museum in Bruges. It is not a costume or lace museum, but has some of the best portraits for costume detail that I have ever seen. Plus the shop has good postcards of the portraits. It is a lovely old house that Edward IV and the future Richard III stayed in when they had been exiled from England during the Wars of the Roses. Kathleen kathleenanstec.com ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:18:55 EST Subject: Re: Little Woodhams 1642 shoe patterns Have you tried contacting the Sealed Knot Society in England? They do all sorts of English Civil War re-enactments throughout the country. If anyone would know where to find patterns, they would. Also I understand there is a shoe museum in London (I don't know the address or how to contact them). You might try that. Perhaps Caroline Yeldham could help you if she is around or not on vacation since she is in England and seems to know where to obtain things. Caroline, are you out there? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:49:25 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Victorian hairstyles _English Women's Clothing in the Nineteenth Century_ by C. Willett Cunnington, published by Dover Books, has quite a few fashion-plate-style pictues of ladies' hair & hat styles for the entire century. The variety and detail is wonderful! One suggestion for misc. Victorian hairstyles is to use hair pieces. I've seen some wonderful styles done thru liberal use of "fakes," such as ringlets, braids, wiglets, pads, pony tails, & curls. You simply twist your own hair into a bun, then clip the curls & whatnot all around to achieve the desired effect. Hair pieces usually hold a style better than "live" hair, thus avoiding the dreaded hat hair. Hair pieces are actually very historically accurate too -- not every Gibson Girl had naturally full, thick hair, you know! --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 11:48:25 TZ Subject: RE: Victorian hairstyles? | (I see pictures of women without hats. Since I've heard that | women always went out with hats/bonnets on, that implies that the | woman in question left her house with a hat or bonnet, got to the | photographer's studio, and removed it--in which case I'm very | impressed by their hairdressing skills, since whenever I take off a | hat I have a raging case of "hat hair" and don't care to be | photographed.) I would assume that photographic studios were well equipped with hair brushes, combs, hair pins, and a variety of makeup/hairdressing supplies, just as they are today. When you're looking at a portrait, whether painted or photographed, remember that it has been carefully posed to present the subject in the best light (both literally and figuratively) and is, to some extent, an idealization rather than a perfect reflection of everyday life. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:05:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Jo Schuessler Subject: Re: Hair - up and/or covered On 5 Jul 1995, Karen Lovejoy wrote: > Reply to: RE>Hair - up and/or covered C19th > > That is one of my pet peeves. I have been in the SCA for 15 years and as a > 16th cent Elizabethan noble woman, my hair is always up in a coif or > escoffion. I hear you. Though I'm not in the SCA, I go to my share of Renn Faire events, and I made myself a nice, not too fancy outfit--artisan class or a little better. Even as a less-than-noble woman, I covered my hair, but with very few exceptions (including the nobles), I was the only woman there without hair flowing out in every direction. Positively shamelesss! :) Melanie mjs@owlnet.rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 17:22:10 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C Dickie) Subject: Re: Woad Warrior In message andrea ruth leed writes: > Woad is also a hallucinogenic drug when ingested. Who knows, enough > smeared on your skin would probably have the same effect. No wonder the > celts were so scary in battle...thousands of naked, tripping berserkers > would not be a fun thing to face. Also, unless they were rushing round in a frenzy, they woad feel the cold... < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 23:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Woad to thee I know, bad pun. The woad plant is in the same family as that of the indigo plant, thus it requires the same dying techniques,. . . amonia and oxygen to cure. Truely a smelly process. Apparently the skin-born reaction that all you "want-a-be woad-warriors" results only when the individual is brought to sweat, such as in the heat of battle or the heat of a tent:). Please forgive me it's late and I'm packing to go to an event. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ From: triciaa@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 21:01:11 -0700 Subject: The Book of the Courtier and Braveheart Hi, this first is for Thea (TheaG@aol.com): I think the book you're talking about is _The Book of the Courtier_ by Baldesar Castiglione. It was written in Italy in the early 16th c (1516). My copy is in English and from Anchor Books. I just wanted to put in my $.02 about Braveheart. Though it's said not much is known about William Wallace, quite a bit is known about Edward I, Edward II, and Isabella. Here's a basic math problem: Isabella is born in 1292, Wallace fights and wins the battle of Stirling Bridge in 1297, fights and loses the battle of Falkirk in 1298, Wallace is executed in 1305, Edward I dies in 1307, and Edward II *sails for France* and marries Isabella in 1308. (All dates are from the Chambers Biographical Dictionary.) So you can see where there may be a problem beyond the authenticity of Isabella's wedding gown. Tricia triciaa@cats.ucsc.edu ------------------------------ From: Cpascoe@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:44:30 -0400 Subject: Costume/fashion books Hi All, A great source for In-Print books on Fashion and Costume is: A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books 601 Van Ness San Francisco, Calif 94102 tel:415-441-6670 As the fashion buyer I try to snap up everything I can in the way of fashion history. Of course we can't stock all books at all times, but we will happily order any book that's in print in the USA. We require a 40% deposit on books we don't normally stock (although we stock a lot) and we ship UPS within the USA. We can ship international, but postage is pretty expensive. A book that people might be interested in is "Orientalism: Visions of the East in Western Dress" by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. This book is from an exhibition they mounted this past year. It contains gorgeous colour photos of gowns from 1760 till present and focuses on the influence of Asia on European/Western dress. The Met's last catalog/book "Infra-Apparel" went out-of-stock at the publisher's within 6 months and I havn't been able to restock it yet (if ever). Since I'm working from home, I can't remember the price of the thing, but I think its like $29.00 or so for the paperback (there is no hardcover except maybe through the met). On another note, there's going to be another vintage fashion expo in San Francisco on Sept.16-17. It will be at the SF Concourse at 8th & Brannan Streets. The info number on the flyer is:415-822-7227. Although when I called it, I never got a call-back. regards, Christy Pascoe. CPascoe@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 17:22:49 -0600 (MDT) From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Looking for More Kilt Research I have recently seen a reference made to a "Medieval" Kilt. It apparently is similar to a modern kilt, 'cept that the pleats are not sewn down from waist to hip. I inquired of the person what their sources were, but have heard nothing. Has anyone here seen such a reference that they would pass along to me? Thanks, Carol * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Unless you are the lead dog, /\_/\ The view is always the same." > < > ^ ^ < source: bumper sticker >(_o_)< U ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 22:11:58 -0400 From: Zachary Kessin Subject: Elizabethan trunkhose I am about to try and make an Elizabethan doublet and pants and still haven't quite figured out how to do the pants so they have the proper fullness. Were they stuffed with horse hair and if so where does one get it or a reasonable substitute? Also if anyone has any sugestions on fitting etc please pass them on --Zach (Guiliam in the SCA) zkessin@bedlham.com ------------------------------ From: Gordon Monson Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:09:13 -0700 Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 334, 7/7/95 - Costume museums in Italy Hi, Eden Last year I visited the three cities you name, so I can give you the list of "must-see's"! In Florence, one of the separate museums that make up the Pitti Palace is the Galleria del Costume. This one heads the list!! They have a lovely, *large* standing exhibit of costumes ranging from eighteenth century on up to fairly modern, including shoes and other accessories, plus special exhibits. When we were there, (talk about manna from heaven, or having your mind entirely blown out of the water) the special exhibit was of the Medici costumes reconstructed by Janet Arnold. Many of them are described in the 3d vol. of Patterns of Fashion, and there were some that were not included in that book. They had Eleonora de Toledo's gown (the one everyone wants) and many other mouth-watering pieces. I expect that these are no longer on display, but look for the book in the museum bookshop. The Pitti also includes a museum of fine metalwork (Museo degli Argenti), which includes much interesting jewelry, etc. The main museum also is definitely worthwhile for paintings, including many famous ones that are in all the costume books. Also in Florence is the Palazzo Davanzati. This is a medieval merchant's home, furnished in period, with wonderful frescos, and worth a visit just for itself. It is *also* the central repository for Florence's collection of lace. However, most of the lace is not on display; since you have some lead-time, you might write to them and find out about seeing things not on display. You can usually arrange this sort of thing with museums if you give them lots of notice and are specific about what you want to see (i.e., don't say "show me everything from the 19th century"). Don't miss the frescos in various churches, especially Santa Croce. If you like armor, the Museo Stibbert is small but worth a visit, but it is quite a ways out of the center of town, so take a taxi. You already know about the Uffizi, but when we were there about half the museum was still closed due to the damaged caused by the bomber (may he burn in hell). In Milan, the Museo Poldi-Pezzoli has many wonderful paintings and a marvellous collection of watches - works of art! Also jewelry and other objets de vertu. Very good lace collection, and a good bookshop. The Pinacoteca di Brera is another major art museum with many important costume paintings. If you have the time, (and it is huge) the Castello Sforzesco is worth a visit; they have a costume exhibit with a fascinating motion-sensing lighting scheme. If the light goes out before you are finished looking at the exhibit (a high probability), walk back to the landing and it will turn on again. The Castello also has great collections of china and musical instruments, and interesting special exhibits that may be of use to you (while we were there, they had 17th century drawings and an exhibit of photographs of the Wild West!) Milan is, of course, the fashion center for Italy. There is one particular area where the haut couture shops concentrate, which is amusing to walk through. Ah, Venezia, la Serenissima! Mio favorito! Venice is beyond words. The Galleria dell'Accademia has important paintings, including Veronese's "Dinner at the House of Levi." The Museo Correr was good; they had a special exhibit of the paintings and drawings of Pietro Longhi when we were there. The Museo del Settecento Veneziano is great (in the Ca' Rezzonico). The Museo Fortuny was a disappointment; none of his clothing was on display, only some samples of his stamped velvet fabrics and many of his paintings. The Galleria Querini-Stampalia sounded interesting in the guidebook, but the whole museum was closed for restoration (chiuso per restauro). You will of course visit the Basilica and the Doge's Palace. If you have time, the boat excursion to Murano and Burano is worthwhile; the regular motorboat bus service goes there so it is easy to do. In Murano, visit the Glass Museum and at least one of the workshops, to watch them blowing glass (fascinating!), and in Burano, the Scuola di Merletti lace museum is terrific. Also MANY shops selling examples of lace; the inexpensive pieces, I am sorry to say, mostly made in China, but nice anyway. The other really fun thing about Venice is the mask shops all over. Carneval has become a major tourist thing for Venice since it was revived a few years ago; we were there just before Carneval was about to start, so masks were everywhere, but I expect the shops will still be there in the fall. The price range is very large; you can probably find something within your budget as the perfect Venetian souvenir. Many of the masks available are very traditional designs, especially the "bauta" style, which goes back at least to the 18th c. and the Commedia styles which are at least 16th c. In Milan and Florence, the museums mostly had no problem with photography, but Venice was different. Across the board, all the museums forbade photography, though it was usually OK in churches as long as you are polite about it. Books with lots of color pictures are amazingly cheap in Italy. Take stout luggage; the airline ripped a handle off one of my bags that was heavier than it looked, being full of books. Well, there are lots more worthwhile places to visit in all three cities, but I have to stop somewhere. Get yourself an assortment of guidebooks, and pick the museums that sound the closest to your interests. Buon viaggio (sigh of envy) Shelley Monson On Fri, Jul 7, 1995 6:18:08 PM Eden Rain wrote: >From: erain@mv.us.adobe.com >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 16:02:20 PST >Subject: Costume Museums in Italy > >Hello, >I'm going to Northern Italy this fall (Oh wow!) and the post asking >about Costume Museums in Spain recently reminded me that I should ask >the same for Italy. > >I'll be in Milan, Florence and Venice. Anyone have any suggestions for >actual costume museums to visit while I'm over there? Obviously I'm >going to spend all my time in the Uffizi looking at clothing details in >the portraits, but I'd like to see the real thing given a chance. >Particularly I'm interested in renaissance & medieval textiles. > >Thanks for any suggestions, > >Eden Rain > >eden.rain@adobe.com >Please cc me on replies since I only get the digest sporadically thanks >to my weird mail server :-< > monsons@hooked.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 05:39:13 EDT From: cilla@ibm.net (Priscilla Meredith) Subject: Re: body forms >I was wondering if anybody out there could help me. I will be designing >for two plays soon, and although my pattern making and sewing skills are >excellent, my drawing is terrible! I need to present renderings to the >director. I wondered if anybody knew of a book with body forms ( men >and >ladies, plus- size ladies as well), that I could use as a base for my >sketches. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I really don't know of any good books for plus-size ladies, but several really good books are by Kojiro Kumagai. "Fashion Illustration 1" "Fashion Illustration 2" There are also three new books that just deal with the body forms, but I haven't seen teh actual tittles just reference. The publisher is Graphic-Sha Priscilla ----------------------- Priscilla Meredith cilla@ibm.net ----------------------- ------------------------------ End of Volume 339 -----------------------