From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 346, 7/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 346, July 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Free Fittingly Sew disks Review of pattern drafting software British Museum collection on CDROM? Question and answers:Elizabethan corset and accessories Unsubscribing from h-costume Irish Lace Question: Smithsonian 18th C clothing project Answers in the archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:54:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fittingly Sew To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You can get a FREE demo disk (make sure you specify Mac or Windows), by calling Bartley Software Inc. at 1-800-661-5209. Maybe after enough of us have tried the various software, we could have a discussion about their useability for drafting historic costume patterns? Denise Zaccagnino (Lady Deonora Ridenow in the SCA) ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Fittingly Sew Demo To: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu wrote: > You can get a FREE demo disk (make sure you specify Mac or Windows), by > calling Bartley Software Inc. at 1-800-661-5209. You can also ftp a demo from cs.uwp.edu (I think the directory is /pub/msdos/fido/cf-sew, but you'll have to check that once you get there as my memory is faulty and I didn't write it down; the cf-sew is correct, so just look around for that under /pub), or in the UK you can ftp it from doc.ic.ac.uk (/recreation/crafts/fido-cfdn directory). These sites have demos of Fitting Sew for Windows and for the Mac, as well as a demo of the first incarnation (version 1.1, June, 1992) of Personal Patterns called "PC Patterns", and there's fairly complete reviews of Dress Shop 2.0 and Personal Patterns too (they're under the directory called cf-nfo.) The files are called: fswindem.zip (Fittingly Sew Windows Demo; cf-sew) fsmacdem.sea, fsmacinf.sea (Fittingly Sew Mac Demo and Info; cf-sew) pcpat.zip (PC Patterns demo; cf-sew) pers-pat.zip (Personal Patterns Review; cf-nfo) dresshop.zip, dressho2.zip (Dress Shop 2.0 Reviews Parts 1 and 2; cf-nfo) > Maybe after enough of us have tried the various software, we could have a > discussion about their useability for drafting historic costume patterns? Excellent idea! I think that which software you like will depend on how you like to work. Here's my personal take on it after playing around with several demos: Dress Shop 2.0: This program gives you many (100 or more?) existing, non-changeable patterns. Under the "pants" category, for example, is jeans, single-pleated pants, double-pleated pants, stirrup pants, leggings, etc., with options for fly front, no fly front, side or back zip opening, elastic waistband, etc. You enter your measurements (LOTS of them; over 100) into the computer and select the pre-existing pattern you want to sew and it prints it out in your size, with the vast majority of alterations you'd need to make for your figure-type already done. Once the pattern is printed out, of course, you can make additional changes. So in theory you could search the pattern database for existing styles that come close to the historic style you wish to make, print out that and then adjust it via slash-and-spread or whatever flat pattern changing system you choose to use. (The theory being you'd a least have a starting pattern that fits you and only you.) Apparently Dress Shop 2.0 files are able to be shared (awkwardly, although it does work) with Autocad. Once in autocad, you can make changes on-screen to the pattern, itself. So if you did have autocad, the theory is you'd make one of the existing DS2.0 patterns fit you, and only you, export it to autocad and then make changes to that pattern *in autocad* (like make quadruple pleats in your pants, for example) before you'd print it out. That still sounds like a lot of additional bother to me... With Personal Patterns, you enter a number of measurements (not as many as DS2.0) into the computer and it caculates a sloper. You print out that sloper and then hack'n'slash it to create your pattern (or use it to check an existing pattern.) The theory here being you'd be starting with a sloper that fits you and only you. IMHO, if you like to do all your changes to the flat pattern, as opposed to on the computer screen, you'd be best off forgetting the computer programs and just investing in the BonFit system. That's a series of plastic pattern templates with dials and sliders 'n stuff that you use to create original flat patterns that fit your measurements. Like the Personal Patterns computer program, they start you with basic slopers and you make the changes to those (through drafting or hack'n'slash) to come up with the actual pattern. The only advantage I can see to using the computer, at this point, would be if you weren't the creative type, pattern-creation-wise, and wanted to start with a base of existing patterns, like DS2.0 offers. Personally, I like Fittingly Sew the best because it starts you with basic slopers and you can *change them on-screen* to become whatever you want BEFORE you print out the pattern. But I work best fiddling with shapes on-screen, and seeing the results before they're printed out, rather than fiddling with large, flat expanses of paper and trying to manipulate that. I don't work well on the flat... With Fittingly Sew, you can take the basic pants sloper, for example, size it to your size (with a series of measurements, just like the other programs) and then start dragging and redrawing the pattern on-screen to create, say, winged-harem-pants in your, exact size. What you do with the pattern is only limited by your imagination and general flat-pattern contraints (you can't have a negative line, for example. :-) Personally, I think this is the most useful, for historic costuming purposes, of the three programs. The problem in historic costuming is that often similar commercial patterns simply don't exist! So it doesn't help if the only thing a program allows you to do is print out a really-big-poofy-dress simply because a really-big-poofy-dress is one of the standard-supplied patterns. What a lot of historic costume people need to do is create the pattern from scratch, or from copying a drawing of that pattern. I think that Fittingly Sew in the only computer program that will let you do that easily, on-screen. Otherwise, you'd be better off with one of the flat-pattern-modifying assistants like BonFit. That's my 2 cents on the matter. I have no connections with any of the above products, other than trying out all their demos (including playing around with a friend's BonFit and having the company send me a copy of their bodice-modification manual to view). -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright To: fishcat@hooked.net, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 10:41:18 TZ Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM | Personally, I want to see the entire V&A dress collection (or the Bath | collection, among others) on CD-ROM -- full-length front & back view of | each item. This would be a wonderful aid to students of historical costume | & it would also be a fantastic way to document the collection for | posterity. I have been told that the British Museum published its entire costume collection on CD-ROM back in January. I have never found anything about this in writing, so I don't know if it's true, how much it costs, or how to order it. ------------------------------ From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Corsets Hello Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. My boyfriend thinks I am nuts for wanting to squish my innards. I have some questions.. 1. Whats a good pattern and where to locate it? 2. Whats a corset busk and a busk board? 3. What to use for stays and where to get them? I have seen spiral ones but they look uncomfortable as the are round and the garment is flat... 4. They did wear corsets under bodices right?? 5. How comfortable are they? So those are my questions.. thanks Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jo Jann To: cpecourt@mhv.net Cc: Costume List Subject: Re: Corsets I too am looking for Corset information/patterns. But what about the ones worn on the outside? Or am I just dreaming? =) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 22:35:38 -0400 From: Zachary Kessin To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: how to unsubscribe If you would like to unsubscribe to a list do *NOT* send mail to the list. send it to "h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu". The Subject line is not relivent but the body should say "unsubscribe h-costume email@host.com" nothing else. This address is not going to a person but to a computer and trying to be polite to it only confuses it. (Every list I have ever been on has gotten sub/unsub requests every so often but h-costume is by far the worst) --Zachary Kessin zkessin@bedlham.com x^n+y^n=z^n has no integer solutions other than 0 for n>2 I have a wonderful proof of this, but it won't fit in a .sig file. ------------------------------ From: "Hicks, Melissa" To: grm+ , Costume List Subject: RE: Corsets Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 13:39:00 EST >Hello > Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those >corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. My boyfriend thinks I >am nuts for wanting to squish my innards. I have some questions.. > 1. Whats a good pattern and where to locate it? > 2. Whats a corset busk and a busk board? > 3. What to use for stays and where to get them? I have seen >spiral ones but they look uncomfortable as the are round and the garment >is flat... > 4. They did wear corsets under bodices right?? > 5. How comfortable are they? >So those are my questions.. >thanks >Chantal Chantal, to answer a couple of your questions. I can really only speak for late Tudor as that is the period I am doing. 1. I have adapted a patterns from Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming for the years 1550 - 1580; Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage and Screen and Janet Arnold's sets. 2. A busk board is a piece of wood that went down the front of the corset to keep it ultra flat. Arnold explains in detail. 3. For stays I use flat, plastic covered, sprung steel (sort of similar to steel packing tape). The boning we use comes in 1/4 and 1/2 inch widths. I think this is fairly standard for members of the Society for Creative Anachronisms and your local group will probably give your info about locating supplies. 4. They wore corsets under their important clothes, for example high Tudor or Elizabethan. Many of the "lower class" women simply cinched their bodices in tight which held them in place, so to speak. 5. Extremely !!! Especially if you are well endowed. They do NOT squash your innards! The whole point of these corsets was to give a smooth line down the front. So basically your breasts and stomach were squished in almost to your waist, however my waist measurement when I wear my corset is slightly larger than it normally is. It is the action of squishing the breats that hold them in place. This also gives the bosom style effect. Many of my well endowed friends agree that they are more comfortable to wear than modern bras. With modern bras, the weight of the breast is held from the shoulder down and this can sometimes cause back pain. A renaissance corset on the other hand does not touch the shoulders. Thier are also different styles of corset for different time periods. For example with straigh-waisted tudor, the corset stops atthe waist and the stomach was hid under the skirt which ballooned out over a bell farthingale (hoops). With a Late Tudor, which had a slight point to the waist, giving the inverted V effect, the corset goes down to the navel. For High Elizabethan the point extends well downto the end of the torso area. I have been told of one lady who had to sit with her legs slightly apart becuase the corset point had to go between them when sitting. Although as I do both types of Tudor I wear the one style of corset (late) and the fact that my stomach is held in slightly is hidden under the farthingale anyway. You may have trouble trying to wear this style of corsetry under modern clothes. To start with, your breasts will sit much higher. Actually just imagining the silhouette of a Renaissance corset under jeans and T-shirt could be quite amusing 8-). Yours Melissa Hicks SCA: Meliora de Curci E-Mail: mah@amsa.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:57:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" To: cpecourt@mhv.net cc: Costume List Subject: Re: Corsets You're crazy, well we are now done with that and on to the questions at hand. 1. Find a copy of Nora Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines", this book will answer most questions you have and also has great patterns. 2. Not having my copy of "Corsets and Crinolines" at home, I believe, they are the front pieces used to open the corset without unlacing it. We usually order ours from Greenburg and Hammer (I think). 3. You can get spiral boning and flat boning, depending on where you are going to put it. Once again, look in the book, it is a wealth of information. 4. Contrary to the evidence put forth by Modanna and her ilk, underwear is meant to be worn under your clothes. Corsets are considered underwear and should be worn under your bodice. 5. Having once popped out of my corset on stage in front of 500 people, I can only say it depends on how the corset is built and whether or not you like wearing large bones on your chest. I personally think they are evil and should be outlawed along with panthose, spike heels and any piece of underwear called wonder anything. Just my opinion. Hope this helps. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > Hello > Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those > corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. My boyfriend thinks I > am nuts for wanting to squish my innards. I have some questions.. > 1. Whats a good pattern and where to locate it? > 2. Whats a corset busk and a busk board? > 3. What to use for stays and where to get them? I have seen > spiral ones but they look uncomfortable as the are round and the garment > is flat... > 4. They did wear corsets under bodices right?? > 5. How comfortable are they? > So those are my questions.. > > thanks > Chantal > ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 95 00:37:48 EDT From: Agnes Gawne&Jeff Hamill <74150.375@compuserve.com> To: H Costume Subject: Irish Lace delarorm@sce.com (RMd) asked: "Is there Irish Lace?" Yes, there is. Or at least, there was. I am no scholar of lace but my grandmother, who was raised in Ireland in the late nineteenth century, was an accomplished lacemaker. Unfortunately, she died before I had any appreciation of textile arts. I have one piece of lace that she made to show us how it was done "In the old days". I think I was about six years old when she did it. She started with a piece of fabric that closely resembles tulle, except it was not stiff at all. Then she used a needle and thread to add on patterns, she made shamrocks. It is something like embroidery but very light and airy, not heavy anywhere. I am sure a lace connoisseur would better describe it. I also have a postcard that appears to be an advertisement of the lace making school she attended. There is a photograph of the students and apparently their teacher. By the clothing on the women it appears to be from 1905 or so... this would be consistent with her age. Everyone in the picture is wearing a lace ornamented pinafore or collar, except the woman who appears to be the teacher. There are three pieces of lace stretched on frames leaning in front of the class. They look like the piece of lace I described earlier. The caption of the post card is as follows (caps and returns included): Attention is called to the exquisite Lace Turned out by the girls Who reside in this place. Limerick and Carrickmacross Both kinds are designed To suit customers taste And then Finished up With all possible haste. Try us and save yourself loss. Convent Lace Class, Castletown - Bere, Co. Cork. I am sure that there is still lace making in Ireland. I imagine Limerick and Carrickmacross are two styles as advertised on the old postcard. Also, there is a newssgroup called soc.culture.celtic that is read by a lot of Irish people. You might try posting a message there to get some more information about choosing and purchasing Irish lace. I hope this information helps (or at least entertains.) Agnes Gawne ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: how to unsubscribe To: zkessin@bedlham.com (Zachary Kessin) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > [how to unsubscribe info deleted] > ... This address is not going to a person but > to a computer and trying to be polite to it only confuses > it. (Every list I have ever been on has gotten sub/unsub > requests every so often but h-costume is by far the worst) Actually for this list the messages sent to h-costume-request (the admin address for unsubscribes) IS going to a person and NOT a machine. Gretchen runs this list by hand. There are no automatic filters on the list, or anything like that. That's why so many sub/unsub messages get through if they're sent to the list address -- there is no automated software to trap them. We've been toying with the idea of moving the list to run off my machine, "lunch", and it's Majordomo server (automated mailing list software) for a while now. One advantage would be automatic trapping of sub/unsub messages; the disadvantages are strictly personal ones for us admins. Lack of that human touch and all... :-) No decision has been made yet; we're still mulling it all over. (If anyone feels strongly about it one way or the other, you can send Gretchen and I private e-mail about it. I'm close@lunch.engr.sgi.com and Gretchen is grm+@andrew.cmu.edu) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 0:17:16 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Smithsonian 18th c clothing project Tonight I read an article of 1976 in Historic Preservation by Claudia Kidwell of the Smithsonian. In the article she states that the Smithsonian had begun a project (about 1969) which sought to inventory every known article of 18th century American clothing extant. Apparently in 1976 the project was still underway. Does anyone known anything about this? Did anything ever get published? Is Claudia Kidwell still on staff at the Smithsonian? I have the feeling nothing came of this project, or I'm sure by now I would have come across something on it. It seems especially cruel to tempt me by suggesting such a project was underway if it was never completed! :-) Bryan H bph3213@zeus.tamu.edu or Baloo@tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 01:48:19 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Corsets Although I wear stiffened and boned bodices rather than corsets (though this is about to change) I can, at least, partially answer a few of your questions. > Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those >corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. My boyfriend thinks I >am nuts for wanting to squish my innards. Yeah, but they look so damn good! Btw...the corset dates from the 16th century on. There is speculation of a type of corset being worn earlier for support and to nip in the waist, the the corset really took hold during the 16th century's abstract manipulation of the female form. (men sometimes wore them, too) I have some questions.. > 1. Whats a good pattern and where to locate it? The best pattern is one designed for your measurements. A friend has provided me with an outline, but I haven't tried it yet. (My bodices are the result of duct tape patterns) You're a Scadian, right? Your best bet is to attend an A&S class on corset making. > 2. Whats a corset busk and a busk board? A busk is a triangular piece of wood or boiled leather that slips into a pocket in the front of the corset. It is kept in place with a ribbon threaded through holes at the top of the busk. This creates the firm point of Elizabethan and Jacobean garb. (busk ribbons were a popular favour for a lover...) How you go about making one is beyond me. I just fake it with a double thickness of belting sewn together. Could someone help us out? > 3. What to use for stays and where to get them? I have seen >spiral ones but they look uncomfortable as the are round and the garment >is flat... Plastic coated steel boning is best...it's flat and keeps its shape really well. (Plastic boning can bend and before you know it, its digging into some really important organ) You might try a bridal notions shop. And big SCA events usually have at least one merchant selling steel boning. > 4. They did wear corsets under bodices right?? Yes. Although I have found documentation for the stiffened and boned bodice being worn alone. > 5. How comfortable are they? It depends on how tightly you are laced and your figure type. Technically they are only laced until you have a smooth line. But some people wear them to the point of creating bruises. And since a big bust has more to squish before it becomes a smooth line, they would be more uncomfortable the bigger you are. They generally aren't uncomfortable unless you are laced too tightly. Your posture changes, though. And the point of an Elizabethan corset can be uncomfortable. (This also depends on how low the point is...High Elizabethan frightens me!) You learn a whole new way of sitting. But if it fits properly, I can wear one all day without discomfort. (Hint...put on your stockings and shoes *before* you put on your corset...leaning over can be a bitch!) Hope this helps. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:52:03 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: slipping straps >From: "Hicks, Melissa" >Anyway, I had problems with the pattern. The sleeves keep slipping off >the shoulder. Has anyone experienced this? How do you get dresses to >sit on the point of the shoulder? I think this has been discussed before, so there may be some useful info in the archives - the method I use is a combination of angling the straps in on the pattern rather than straight up or out, and tightening the back of the bodice (this should do a lot towards solving the problem. I don't know of any evidence for a strap accross the shoulders. Sarah **************************************************************************** ********************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 17:34:25 EST10 Subject: Re: Irish Lace Hi all, In her recent post, Agnes was talking about lace that her grandmother made: >done "In the old days". I think I was about six years old when she did it. She >started with a piece of fabric that closely resembles tulle, except it was not >stiff at all. Then she used a needle and thread to add on patterns, she made >shamrocks. It is something like embroidery but very light and airy, not heavy >anywhere. I am sure a lace connoisseur would better describe it. This description sounds like Carrickmacross lace to me. This is where shapes made from very fine linen (or some other delicate fabric) are appliqued onto a fine net background using decorative stitches. I don't know a great deal about it off the top of my head but my mother just gave me a piece of Carickmacross (which, indeed, had shamrocks on it) which had a little information sheet accompanying it. I'll dig it up and get back to you. Cheers for now, Heather aspinall@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au ------------------------------ From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 17:50:44 EST10 Subject: Re: Fittingly Sew Demo I just wanted to say Thanks Diane for the great review of Dress Shop, Fittingly Sew, etc. This is exactly the sort of personal experience which is so great to have when you're trying to sort out what would be a good software package to buy (or even a good flat package like BonFit). Thanks again! Heather aspinall@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au ------------------------------ End of Volume 346 -----------------------