From: owner-h-costume-digest (Historic Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Historic Costume Digest V3 #154 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Historic Costume Digest Friday, August 4 1995 Volume 3, Number 154 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: www site address for Bata Shoe Museum, Toronto Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 357, 8/2/95 Re: pattern making Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 357, 8/2/95 Shoes French Farthingales Costume collection in Seattle RE: Bata shoe museum and thanks shoes source (buckles too) Re: Re[2]: codpieces Re: Academic gown Real Kilts, Must Read. RE: Academic gown Pattern making Re: What do you wish you knew? Re: paper for patterns Re: What do you wish you knew Re[2]: Academic gown Re: French Farthingales Re: What do you wish you knew RE: What do you wish you knew "Orphan" Costume Collections Re: Academic gown Standards of Beauty RE: What do you wish you knew ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 15:14:14 EST From: MARINA Subject: www site address for Bata Shoe Museum, Toronto hi everyone, for..................Bata Shoe Museum..................... if you can access WWW have a look at the following address: http://www.hype.com/toronto/attractions/bata.htm Shoes are an addiction to me so I am lucky to be only about 10 minutes walk away from this new oddly shaped building. I've been reading this listserv for about a year but this is my first message to h-costume. ********** Marina Fedchenko ************************************ email: fedchenko@library.utoronto.ca snailmail: Science and Medicine Library, University of Toronto, ********** Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A5 CANADA ******************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:29:20 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 357, 8/2/95 Re: University libraries of garments. I wouldn't think that *every* universiity would have one, only the ones with textile/costume programs. Berkeley *used* to have a design dept. When they closed it, the material goods went to the Lowie (now Hearst) Museum. As far as I know, they are still housed separately and you have to have pretty good credentials even to see them (I don't know if they are documented at all) The museum itself has some garments and textiles, including a Fortuny outfit and Russian ecclesiastical garb. Ren. chasubles, etc. A lot of Asian and Middle Eastern stuff. Anyone else know any stashes?? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu (don't work at that museum, unfortunately) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:14:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: pattern making On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, D. R. Leed wrote: > When I try to make my-sized patterns from Janet Arnold or those > itsy-bitsy pattern layout pieces you see in costume books, I first xerox > the piece I need, then tape it to the lower left hand corner of either a > [snip] Wouldn't a Pantograph, (available I'm sure at art supply stores) be easier? Irene Joshi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 95 18:28:48 EST From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Subject: Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 357, 8/2/95 The Brooklyn Museum used to have a very good costume collection. It may still be there, but they don't have the funds to display the clothing. Same with the Philadelphia Museum of Art. At one time, they set up a Costume Institute, like that of the Met, and even did an exhibition or two. Then for some reason, the whole thing died. Ive heard that the Philly museum has plenty of funds for ACQUISITION, but none for DISPLAY. Seems pretty dumb to me. The Chester County (PA) Museum has a nice collection of period wedding gowns and Quaker clothing. They do display once in a while and I think you can make an appointment to see the collection if you have a legitimate reason. The Valentine Museum in Richmond is supposed to have a nice collection (19th century, I think). One of my fantasies is to have a National Museum of Costume, like the National Gallery of Art, connected to the Smithsonian or something like that, where all these orphan collections could be gathered, maintained, and displayed. It would have the funding they lack. Speaking of which, does anyone know if the Royal Ontario Museum's costume institute is doing anything intersting these days? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 13:42:05 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Shoes To follow up the recent comment about wearing period shoes, women seem to have it much easier than men in this regard. Just go into any shoe store and compare the range of styles available for men to the range of styles available for women. Does anyone know a good source for historical shoes, especially for men? I've seen Amazon Dry Goods' shoe catalog, but the prices are fairly high and I'm reluctant to lay out that kind of money without being able to see the quality of the shoes (or even the leather). Has anyone here ordered any of these shoes? If so, can you comment on the quality of the materials, workmanship, and service you received? Does anyone have any other sources to recommend? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 13:27:10 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: French Farthingales I didn't want to post this before I had a chance to verify this, but I checked Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion" last night. She agrees with Linthicum that the French farthingale was the padded "bum roll" rather than the cartwheel farthingale. Can anyone point to a reputable primary or secondary source that indicates that "French farthingale" sometimes referred to the cartwheel farthingale? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:15:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Costume collection in Seattle The Henry Art Gallery, at the University of Washington, has an extensive collection of both fashion and ethnic clothing and textiles. It is well cataloged and indexed. Each item is photographed and the record includes all the pertinent information about the piece. Fabric, techniques, embroidery stitches, motifs, garment type etc are some of the index access points. It is usually available for research purposes by appointment but the Henry Art Gallery is undergoing extensive renovation. A new addition is under construction so the collection is closed for the next two years or so. But once the "new" Henry is open, it will again be available and indeed there probably will be public displays of parts of the collection on a semi-regular basis. Blanche Payne's book on the history of costume includes items from this collection and pieces from its ethnic materials are frequently illustrated in books and articles. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 13:45:19 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Bata shoe museum and thanks | If any of you are planning on being in Toronto, you may be interested in | visiting the Bata Shoe Museum. It's supposed to be the only museum in | the world dedicated to footwear. It's at the St. George Subway Station, | 327 bloor Street West, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1W7. Funny. Philadelphia also claims to have "the only museum in the world dedicated to footwear." I wonder how many others there are? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:45:43 -0500 (CDT) From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Subject: shoes source (buckles too) I've heard Fugawee carries a decent assortment of shoes and shoe buckles. Has anyone had experience with this company? How is their stuff? Bryan Baloo@tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:16:23 -0500 (CST) From: Cindy Johnson Subject: Re: Re[2]: codpieces And, for those of you interested in wearing such garments, I have a friend out in California who makes and sells the type of hosen and underwear described by both Joe and Kathleen. Really bugs her when people wear danskins, apparently. She'll be at Pennsic, last I heard. Her SCA name is Ginevra Francesca Pallucchini and her business is Black Swan Designs. Her prices are reasonable and the quality is very good. She's done alot of research to get these garments right, and she sells three different varities of braes/hosen combinations (to accomodate a wide range of time periods/places). If you go to Pennsic, look her up and tell her Cassandra sent you. If you don't go to Pennsic and are interested in her wares, she can be reached at: Black Swan Designs L. Gwen Norwick (610)789-2299 17228 Voorhes Lane Ramona, CA 92065-7109 Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with this lady's business and receive no profit or recognition of any variety for recommending her to you. Hope this helps, Cindy Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:12:56 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Academic gown Shirley Matheis asked: >Can anyone tell me if there is a commercial pattern for an academic gown? Butterick 3820 has a simple graduation robe (like that used for high school grad) and choir robes, plus a couple of stoles & collars. They're not the fully pleated & funky sleeved doctoral robes, but they could be used as a basis for a more elaborate pattern. Hope this helps! - --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:44:25 -0400 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Real Kilts, Must Read. To anyone interested in authentic tartan wear. Have I found something very interesting. In a bridal magazine named "Bliss the Magazine for Scottish Brides", I found this and few other advertisements for tartan wear. I'll copy down one of them. If anyone would like more info. e-mail me. Ladies, they have wonderful dress design. I would kill for one of the dresses in it, It is that uniques of a bridal magazine. (No "normal" wedding dresses here). Highlander Tartan Wear Kiltmakers and Hire Specialists Kilts, Trew, Plaids, Dinner Outfits Etc. All of the Highest Quality for Hire New for 95' Scottish National and Black Watch Tartans, Plus Morning Tail and Frock Coats for Hire Also! Come and See the Burns Crystal Factory Showroom - Highest Quality Cut Crystal At Cut Glass Prices. Ideal Wedding Gifts. 58 Bank Stre, Kilmarnock (01563) 52439 25 Kyle Street, Ayr (01292) 288808 There are more in the magazine if you need them. I don't mind giving them out. I was thrilled just to find this small treasure of designs, so I don't mind sharing. Kimberly D. Stockton SyRilla@ aol.com "Who said that I dress funny?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 16:11:52 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Academic gown | Can anyone tell me if there is a commercial pattern for an academic gown? | -- I don't know about commercial patterns, but Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion: 1560-1620" contains reproductions of several cutting patterns for academic gowns. You didn't say what period you're looking for, but those things haven't changed all that much since the 16th Century. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 21:14:56 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Pattern making Dianne, I see what you're trying to do but I think you're doing it the hard way. A scale pattern can be enlarged by hand gridding (which I assume you know about), a projector, or a photocopier. The latter two methods can be used to enlarge the pattern to your bust size, and you can then adjust the rest of the measurements on paper or in the muslin. I prefer to enlarge scale patterns to the original full size, cut a muslin from it, and do the rest of the fitting in the muslin. I have very good results with this method. (I once made up a 1790s pattern that was _exactly_ my size with no changes in the muslin.) But this may be partly because I'm very small by modern standards. My book _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_ has detailed, step-by-step, illustrated instructions for all three enlargement techniques, plus pattern alterations and muslin fitting. I can send you more information on this book if you're interested. _After a Fashion_ does not cover computer enlargement or fitting. Frankly, when I wrote it (in 1993) I thought no one would be interested. Paper-and-pencil techniques work quite well and are a lot cheaper. Most people have access to a projector or copier without buying it. However, the discussions on this list are making it clear that people _are_ interested in computer techniques. So I will cover them in the next edition. The advantage of pattern making by computer is that the computer can understand measurements, thereby making scale enlargement and personal fitting more easy and accurate. However, your method does not fully utilize this ability. A scanner can only enter bit maps. Bit maps have no "knowledge" of what size the lines are, or even that these are lines as opposed to, say, a scanned photo. Even drawing programs are not designed to do the sophisticated calculations needed for pattern making. What is needed is a program that understands what size each line in the pattern is and the relationships between lines. It must allow you to alter the size of individual lines and either adjust the proportions of the other lines or not as you choose. In short, you need a CAD program. You can use a generic CAD program like AutoCAD, but it's easier to use a specialized pattern-making program. Of course, you still need to enter patterns as lines with exact measurements. A digitizing tablet is best for this. You set the desired scale up on the digitizer and it automatically makes all the lines you trace the right size. (In terms of retaining the proportions of the original pattern; fitting to your figure is a separate step done in the CAD program.) Most (if not all) CAD programs support digitizers. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:47:42 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? I also understand that some painters, aware of changing fashions, and wanting to make their works good for all time, deliberately dressed their models in fantastical and/or flowing drapery that either suggested classical times or no particular time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 07:27:40 +0500 From: artg@nchgr.nih.gov (Art Glatfelter) Subject: Re: paper for patterns For small pieces, especially those often used, such as headwear etc., we have found that used x-ray film makes an excellent pattern "paper". It is water proof, can be written on and wiped clean with a solvent, does not stretch under any normal circumstances, and I find the slight stiffness eliminates the need for pins. The one draw back is availability. Still if you come across any you might like to try it. ------------------------------ Date: 04 Aug 95 13:41:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew I think the thing I wish I had known when I started was to _believe_ what the pattern/instructions/experts told me, _trust_ them, not to try to impose my 20th century ideas about garments on period clothes, but to approach them in a naive fashion, and do as instructed. The two areas that spring to mind are tightness and fullness. Make the bodice tight - its more comfortable, and put enough fullness in the skirt, not modern skimpiness. Probably impossible to convey to a starter, but thats my 2p worth. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 11:04:48 EST From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Subject: Re[2]: Academic gown Also, in answer to the question about academic gowns, "The Evolution of Fashion" has a [simplified] pattern for what we now know as an academic gown. I believe it is one of the men's 13th century patterns. I can look it up this weekend. If you have or can get a copy of the book, and look thru it, near the beginning of the book, you should be able to recognize it. Kathleen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 10:58:35 EST From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Subject: Re: French Farthingales I believe that Ashelford's book on the visual history of clothing (16th century) shows a woman wearing the cartwheel farthingale and refers to it as the "French fasthingale." I have frequently seen the distinction made between the "regular" or cone-shaped hoop ("Spanish") and the cartwheel ("French"). The roll has been referred to as a "bumroll." I know this further confuses the issue, but that's what we're here for, to try and straighten out the misinterpretations, right? Has anyone checked Janet Arnold's "Queen Elizabeth's Closet...?" I'll try to remember to look up the references this weekend. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:25:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew On 4 Aug 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > I think the thing I wish I had known when I started was to _believe_ what > the pattern/instructions/experts told me, _trust_ them, not to try to > impose my 20th century ideas about garments on period clothes, but to > approach them in a naive fashion, and do as instructed. The two areas that > spring to mind are tightness and fullness. Make the bodice tight - its > more comfortable, and put enough fullness in the skirt, not modern > skimpiness. Here here. My bodices started tight -- but only because I was a silly enough teenager to think such things might attract romantic attention. But the single thing I have seen that really ruins most early attempts at costuming has been unwillingness to use enough cloth. Drape is everything.... Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:56:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: What do you wish you knew >I think the thing I wish I had known when I started was to _believe_ what >the pattern/instructions/experts told me, _trust_ them, not to try to >impose my 20th century ideas about garments on period clothes, but to >approach them in a naive fashion, and do as instructed. The two areas that >spring to mind are tightness and fullness. Make the bodice tight - its >more comfortable, and put enough fullness in the skirt, not modern >skimpiness. Good point -- I'll put in a second vote for that. One rebels against putting 3 or 4 yards of width into a skirt (1779) "I'll look fat!". But I am now making skirts for a friend who says her original skirts are not full enough (and they aren't). And my tight bodice & corset are why I don't feel any hotter than I do, on 95 degree days. There is no trapped hot air, and no sticky skin-on-skin movement which you have in modern "loose" tops. Deb Baddorf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: "Orphan" Costume Collections If anyone is keeping a "tally" of orphan costume collections such as those described by Kathleen, another exists in the warehouse of The Museum of History and Industry in Seattle, Washington. This institution has a large and excellent collection, but there is no budget or administrative interest in mounting displays--even with the assistance of volunteer labor. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 9:54:30 PDT From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: Academic gown Questions about sewing academic gowns have come up two or three times on the newsgroup alt.sewing, and there might be a FAQ there, or someone on the group might be able to post a summary of the discussion. As I recall, someone managed to add some very good information based on first-hand examination of several gowns for different degrees. Naomi Brokaw ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 1995 10:02:53 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Standards of Beauty 8/4/95 9:58 AM Standards of Beauty A few years ago I saw a movie about Lilly Langtry, who was one of the lovers of Prince Edward, Queen Victoria's son. Lilly was considered one of the most beautiful women in England at that time. Since then I have seen photographic evidence that Lilly would not be considered a great beauty in our time. If tastes in physical appearance have changed that much in a hundred years, then it stands to reason that persons who were regarded as having great beauty or handsomeness in an earlier century might not look that good to our twentieth-century eyes. Perhaps it is merely my subjective view on this topic, but the standards for beauty (or handsomeness) in women seem to have changed more than those for men. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:21:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: RE: What do you wish you knew On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, Deb wrote: > Good point -- I'll put in a second vote for that. One rebels against > putting 3 or 4 yards of width into a skirt (1779) "I'll look fat!". > But I am now making skirts for a friend who says her original skirts > are not full enough (and they aren't). One of the effects of full skirts below a tight fitting bodice is to make the waist look smaller -- depends on what you mean by fat, I guess. Catherine ------------------------------ End of Historic Costume Digest V3 #154 ************************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!