From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #174 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, September 4 1995 Volume 3, Number 174 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: corset talk clarification breakdown of bibliographies Reference book Re: footbinding, was corsets corset waists and children sequins Re: sequins Children/ Ferris Waist etc Re: corset talk clarification Getting used to a corset Sequins Re: Corsets WWI German Socks Re: Getting used to a corset Re: sequins Re: sequins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:31:23 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Re: corset talk clarification In a personal note I wrote to Betsy Perry: "I did not mean to say that mothers did NOT corset their children. I was just pointing out that if I wanted to reenact the wasp-waist period, I should be able to do so by training my waist now, and not have to lament my own mother's lack of clairvoyance. (Except that with my brace I kinda sorta was corseted, but the effects on my waist are gone now.)" To which she kindly replied, "Ah; then we are in complete agreement! Further comments I would like to add: My experience wearing a brace sounds very similar to the idea of mothers corseting their children so they will grow straight. My brace was worn so that I would grow straight. Stays of the third quarter of the 18th C. (a period with which I have experience) keep the body straight, and don't have to constrict the waist in order to get the fashionable shape. As I mentioned before, when I got out of the brace, I received comments about the smallness of my waist. I now recall that comments were also made when I was simply not wearing the brace at the time, but had not yet "gotten out" of it. I did not have a wasp-waist. I was slender overall. I remember friends in high school with fuller figures looking "smaller waisted" than me due to the contrast between their waists vs. hips & bust. The comments were usually made by adults. Perhaps they were just being kind, as opposed to being truly amazed by my waist size. So here, as I recall, were my dimensions: Height, 5'8". Weight, 110 lbs. Waist measurement, 22", which I could squeeze down to 19" pulling really hard with the tape measure. I was 16, and the year was 1977. From my experience, I extrapolate that a childhood corset for posture can keep the waist on the smaller side, thus rendering it easier to continue training the waist even smaller. But it still seems that it isn't *necessary* to have been corseted as a child in order to get a small waist as an adult. I think this is because one can compress the organs of the middle, unlike binding the feet! Which brings up more questions: Has anyone else noticed that the period of Chinese footbinding roughly corresponds to corseting in the west? Both began I believe in the 14th C (Gothic Medieval) and ended in the early 20th C. How were sloping shoulders caused by the corset? 18th C stays (3rd quarter) had shoulder straps that pulled the shoulders back, but did not cause them to slope. I'm not as familiar with 1835 corsets. Did they have straps as well to pull the shoulders down? I thought they were strapless. If they were strapless, what made the shoulders slope? Jaelle, do you have a year for 8 Cousins? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 12:19:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: breakdown of bibliographies Teresa asked if the bibliographies could be consolidated and then divided to address specific eras and interests. Teresa, I don't know if you've sent for the "general" bib yet, but it is broken down into many sections similar to what you suggest. So you can peruse and use those which interest you and ignore those which don't. This does not address the consolidation all all the posted bibliographies, but certainly the individual sections within the "general" bib are manageable length and, hopefully, will be helpful for those trying to identify resources for specific eras or interests (such as shoes or jewelry). At this time, it is necessary to send for the entire file, but you can then deal with just those sections you want. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:38:20 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Reference book For those of you out there who sew a lot and are looking for more resoures for various supplies, I just bought a book you might find helpful. It's called The Catalog of Catalogs # IV by Edward L Palder. It's a mail order directory book. I happen to be a costume designer and I personally found almost fifty categories of catalog/mail order businesses in this book which may be of use to me in my business. Each category has listings with the name of each business, their addresses and phone numbers, the cost of their catalog/info (if any), and a brief description of what each business deals in primarily. I found it in B Dalton's Booksellers but it can probably be found in many major bookstores under Reference. The Catalog of Catalogs IV by Edward L Palder published by Woodbine House c. 1995 ISBN 0-933149-75-1 Cost: $22.95 - --Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 11:06:30 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: footbinding, was corsets On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Carol Kocian wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that the period of Chinese footbinding > roughly corresponds to corseting in the west? Both began I believe in > the 14th C (Gothic Medieval) and ended in the early 20th C. > Footbinding did not end in the early 20th century, but was ended after the Communist revolution (i.e., mid-20th century). It was part of liberating women to be more productive. Such is the reluctance in the West to give the Communists credit for anything, they are often criticized for forcibly making women remove the bindings (which, to be fair, after many years of wearing and deformation of the foot was as painful as the original application had been). There are still women alive in China whose feet were bound in childhood. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Sep 1995 11:30:12 CDT From: SANDY STAEBELL Subject: corset waists and children I have been following the current thread on corseting with great interest. Although we have been debating just how widespread the practice of corseting for children was, some mainstream ladies magazines carried ads for corset waists for children around the turn of the century. Check out the Ladies Home Journal, September 1897, p. 29. There is a wonderful ad for Ferris' Good Sense Waist. The ad copy claims that not only is dressing your child in a wiast medically sound because it supports the "body healthfully, comfortably and naturally... it also "makes the dressing of the little folk less tedious." I have citations for a number of other similar ads from this period. Sandy Staebell Western Kentucky University staebsl@wkuvx1.wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 15:00:30 -0400 From: JENMED@aol.com Subject: sequins So, just exactly when were sequins 'invented'? This burning question is of interest to me personally as well as a friend who is considering joining the SCA but has serious doubts if sequins are taboo. Also would like to say that I very much enjoy this list and all of the wonderful information that comes from it,. Thanks, Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 16:26:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: sequins On Sat, 2 Sep 1995 JENMED@aol.com wrote: > So, just exactly when were sequins 'invented'? This burning question is of > interest to me personally as well as a friend who is considering joining the > SCA but has serious doubts if sequins are taboo. I don't know when they were invented, but metals spangles in silver and gold were used in Elizabethian times on clothes. These spangles were made of metal and were small circular disks that look A LOT like sequins. They are NOT however sequins - for one thing seqins are made of plastic. Also sequins come in all sorts of colors that spangles do not. If you and your friend would be satisfied with metal spangles, they are in the time frame you are talking about. Modern sequins, however, are not. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: 02 Sep 95 17:09:14 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Children/ Ferris Waist etc Sandy Staebell Western Kentucky University staebsl@wkuvx1.wku.edu wrote about late 19C ads for childrens ferris waists. I am in the UK and we do not have Ferris waists over here. Are they the same as Liberty Bodices ?? The latter, in use until the 1950s in the UK were for young girls. They were warm, fleecy and definitely strong and supporting. ( Not that young girls NEED support ). I have seen childcare books written circa 1900 which advise against Liberty Bodices being too tight, implying that some tightness was good. I believe early (1890) liberty bodices were boned. Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 17:25:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: corset talk clarification On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Carol Kocian wrote: [MAJOR snip] > Jaelle, do you have a year for 8 Cousins? 8 Cousins was printed circa 1874 - that's the date on the forward from Lousia May Alcott, and Rose in Bloom is 1876. Also, in the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, which is a fictionalized retelling of the author's experiences in growing up in the late 19th century, in one of the latter books, when she is a teenager, she complains about wearing corsets and basically says (and this is a paraphrase) that when girls get older and put up their hair, and wear long dresses, they also wear corsets. Now, this was out on the frontier, but it seems that the young - certainly pre adolesent girls didn't wore corsets -at least routinely. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: 03 Sep 95 08:03:51 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Getting used to a corset Several current threads relate to wearing corsets which are modelled on 18C or 19C styles. In the discussions the phrase "getting used to it" occurs. What is "getting used to a corset " ? Is it PSYCHOLOGICAL - learning to move in a different way, learning to bend the knees to pick something from the floor ? Or is it PHYSICAL change to the body - rearranging the internal organs, upper lung breathing, changing the spine/shoulder disposition? Perhaps someone here could suggest a way of testing for the two alternatives ? Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: 04 Sep 95 09:22:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Sequins The Elizabethan sequins were smaller than modern ones, and are available from The Royal Society of Needlework in the UK (sorry, don't have the address to hand) and cost about #3 per 50 5 years ago. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 02:14:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Corsets 1840 to the end of the century. My information source comes from the book "Corsets and Crinolines" by Norah Waugh. The inward curve of the busk along with tight corseting put too much pressure on the inner organs and the kidneys. To quote from the book; "In 1900 Mme Gaches-Sarraute, of Paris, a corsetiere who had studied medicine, designed a new corset to remedy this. Its chief characteristic was the straight-fronted busk, which starting lower on the bust-line continued down over the abdomen without dipping in to the waist, and at the point of the busk, suspenders, now attached to the corset itself, kept the line taut and unbroken to the knees: it supported the abdomen and left the thorax free." This is a really neat book and has a lot of wonderful photos and illustrations, including corsets and crinolines broken down into their component parts. Chris Prescott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 13:01:06 -0400 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: WWI German Socks Hello all, I have a question that has been vexing me for a bit now, which is directly related to costume, and reproducing it. I am wondering what the German WWI issue men's socks looked like. If someone out there has a sock referance, or knows, please share it with me! I have heard that they came with different numbers of bands on top, corresponding to the size. I am also interesed in hearing about any sock reproducers out there, who could make them, or books to learn how. I am also interested in any information about the German WWI Red Cross, even in German. I am especially interested in info about (male & female) Nurses, such as dress, personal memoirs, shoes worn, stockings, period undergarments, ect. Also, I am interested in any patterns that may exist for the reproducing of German WWI men's underwear out there, I really need them. Thanks! Glen Dresback Norman, OK. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 13:10:59 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Getting used to a corset I think 'getting used to a corset' has both physical and psychological comfort zones to contend with. Speaking from a 'medieval' perspective; corsets do not so much compress the waist as compress the bust to produce a smooth inverted cone shape for the torso. they usually stop above the hips at the side with an extension over the abdomen and are very comfortable - to me, and I am an 'ample' person, and to most other people, once you coax them into one. There is a huge resistance to wearing corsets to women who feel it will restrict their 'freedom.' Freedom to do what? Look bad in the very expensive gown they want to wear? I think it is more what they see as their _social_ freedom, from constrictive social conventions that keep them from doing what they want. This comes often with a 'femminist' (read combative - -you-won't-hold-me down-in-submission rant) attitude, for which my only reply can be "if your corset or your man constricts your lifestyle, get a different one." As a physical therapist, I won't wear something that will get in my way, and since I usually bend my knees to lift, etc. I really had no adjustment period at all. Tight lacing, for fun or latter period re-enactment is rather beyond my scope, but seems to be an entirely different kettle of fish, an may take some getting used to, especially if the corset extends below the hips and changes the curve of the lowback (straighter _or_ more curved) and its relationship with the pelvis, which could lead to improve a pre-existing problem, or cause brand-new ones(this is the PT talking). Brenda Rich PS - Im told Im "frank" I apologize if my bluntness offends. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 19:35:35 -0400 From: DLTR@aol.com Subject: Re: sequins Sequins are not of necessity made of plastic. Modern sequins certainly are, but I had the opportunity of working with a large costume collection wihich included some ice show costumes from the 50's. I also have a wonderful collar from a thirties gown. They were (skating dresses and collar) covered in tiny METAL sequins. Some were smooth and some had a "pleated" finish. I even remember metal sequins on a dress my mother had in the 60's. I'm JUST GUESSING, but I bet the plastic sequin became popular with the rise of synthetic fabrics. It must be easier to produce than the metal ones and you can get many more effects (translucent or opalescent for example) with plastic than you can with metal. If not sequins, I wonder what the Elizabethans called the first metal discs they used in embroidery. Diana "Life is a banquet!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 21:47:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Gregory Young Subject: Re: sequins I have seen sequins refered to as 'spangles' in the historical sense (Elizabethan blackwork embroidery specifically). I hope this helps. Jocelyn Wirth ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #174 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!