From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #246 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, November 9 1995 Volume 3, Number 246 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: infants costumes Re: cotehardies etc. Re: 1770-80 Venetian panniers Re: cotehardies etc. Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. ISBN The Bonnie Lass Found! ISBN#, John Scott is right but to confuse matters... Re: 1770-80 Venetian panniers Re: Gloves Looking for Ms. Good-Dummy Re: Gloves Re: cotehardies etc. Re: China report and apology Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Corset Web Page ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:08:16 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: infants costumes I made a little Elizabethan gown for the 3-year-old daughter of a friend. Here's what I think I did right: The sleeves were slash and puff in the French style. To hold them in place and to avoid anything scratchy against her skin, I created a narrow sleeve in a soft cotton, turned it inside out, then sewed the fancy sleeve to it at the slashes. (no scratchy seams anywhere) It was hell to sew, as the inner sleeve was narrower than my free-arm, but she never complained about it itching, and the sleeves looked perfect throughout the day. I made a tiny farthingale with just one hoop at the bottom. I used featherweight boning for the hoop. In a small diameter it holds its shape beautifully, and was lighter and softer for the little girl. I sewed the skirt to the bodice, as little girls don't have waists and hips to hold shirts on properly. The underskirt and slashes were faked by sewing the fabric to the seam allowance of the over-fabric. (I'm proud of this method...it looks real because of the slight overlap) We used hooks and eyes to close it, and that was a mistake. If I do it again, I will use hand-sewn eyelets and lacings. However, the little girl is a pretty pink and white thing with golden curls. The gown was deep green garment velvet with mint green under and metallic silver trim. The affect was exquisite! Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:12:07 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. > On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > > > I am looking for some advice on how to cut and fit cotehardies and overgowns > > from the mid-fifteenth century. Does anyone know, or is it all "best guess" > > work? Should they be princess-seam-like, or in four pieces with lots of > > gores? If they didn't use corsetry then, how did they get the dresses to > > create the look we see in so many paintings -- with the breasts pressed in Hello, I am not a costume historian so I will say nothing on how to get the look you want, I do know something on conspicuous consumption in fourteenth century England and France, however and will say a comment on this. Someone had excellently pointed out that the infamous Greenland dress shows a remarkable use of fabric, almost no waste. In fact, everything from Greenland at this time, shoes, belts, housing, shows an almost fanatical conservation of resources. What someone would expect from an unsupported colony on its way to extinction in the next century. Greenland was well away from the rest of the world and disappearing fast, the colony was dead and gone by the time this woman want information. This is important for a couple of reasons: No dress from this colony should be considered representative of the mainstream dress or fashion from the continent or the British isles; the cut of the dress, materials and embellishments are based solely on a lack of resources and conservation was preeminent--none of which was applicable in continental europe or the British isles. The fourteenth century, and at least part of the fifteenth century was reeling from many physical/social/psychological events and fashion was a reaction to it. Included in some of these actions were decadence, copious use of fabric in a non-conservative way and excess. When everyone is dying and the world comes to an end, why not? This can be seen in the sermons of the day, the fact that tailors would be paid with the remains of the fabric, the quantities ordered for specific outfits as stated in the Great Wardrobe Accounts, the change to non-geometric cuts inherently wasteful of fabric and excessive pleats and lengths in gowns of both men and women shown on brasses, in manscripts, sculpture, in windows etc. So things you may want to keep in mind, or throughly disregard: if you are trying to get something that wasn't a hand-me-down or from a dying colony off the mainstream of fashion, use as much fabric as possible in achieving the look, avoid piecing accept where the form and function of the body dictates it, be as tight and as full (as appropriate) as you can, using the fabrics they used will probably tell you what you can do with them and your body, and since the end of the world is coming, a little excess or craziness can be expected. ;-) Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:41:37 -0500 (EST) From: Karen Mercedes Subject: Re: 1770-80 Venetian panniers We did these for a production of Sheridan's THE RIVALS that I was in. First, if you're not looking for "authentic" in the construction, I can tell you how we did it: solid styrofoam. I can't recall where we got it, but we got two huge chunks of that white styrofoam that looks like tiny styrofoam balls crushed together. We used these for the panniers, and used four strips of wood -- two in front, two in back, to create a kind of frame to hold them together. The wearing them then stepped into the centre of the frame, which was held on to her with a pair of suspenders, looped through the wooden strips. We then sewed a kind of thick quilted cotton "slipcover" that went over the whole thing (when it was already on the girl) like a petticoat, to give the things the right texture under her dress. What she liked about the panniers was that they were very lightweight, yet strong enough to hold the quilted underskirt and the polyester-silk overskirt (this was a university costume budget, after all). Anyway, I imagine the same effect could be done using a wire frame and papier-mache instead of carving styrofoam. I'm still not sure where I'd begin to look for two huge blocks of styrofoam like the ones we used (the paniers extended out about two feet on either side). I wish I could draw a picture but ASCII just won't do it, I'm afraid. Anyone who's really interested, if you've got a fax number, I'd be happy to fax you sketch. Karen Mercedes mercedes@access.digex.net +--------------------------------------+ | Why be difficult when, with a little | | more effort, you can be impossible? | +--------------------------------------+ ===== On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Denny Stone wrote: > I'm looking for advice from anyone who has constructed very wide (6+ feet) > panniers for museum or theatrical. > > The gowns, which I have unfortunately not yet seen, are described as having > very wide, court presentation-like, skirts which stand at 90 degrees to > torso. No sloping from waist to hem with these dresses. > > I've done the research, been to Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines", looked at > the paintings, read Janet Arnold. I can drape these in a snap and bone > them, but I'm still worried that there is not enough support to hold the > skirts out at a 90 degree angle from the body. If anyone has built > these....how did you do it? Cantelievered supports from edge to center? > Hard pannier upper edge? > > I've got ideas, but am looking for moral support from someone who's already > been there. > > Thanks in advance, > Stone > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:10:40 +1100 (EST) From: Katrina Hunt Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. Hi, A friend of mine has made a number of cotehardies of the type mentioned (generally based around the Greenland dress). This lass has a figure somewhat akin to the German illustrations (except that her bust doesn't stay up near her neck all by themselves). When these multigored dresses are fitted properly (you will need a helpful friend) they keep everything where it is supposed to be and look really GOOOD! They support even large busted women well (Dcup). Be warned though, they button up the front and are very tight. Good luck Katrina ******************************************************************************* * * * David and Katrina Hunt | thehunts@canberra.dialix.oz.au * * Stephen Aldred & Mathilde Adycote | 24 Edwards St Higgins ACT Australia * Baron & Baroness Politarchopolis | Phone (06) 254 3059 * * * ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 17:53:56 +0100 From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Subject: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Replying to David Brewer's query on "Medieval gloves: any info?": >I have never seen anything about gloves. Shoes?- yes. Shoes are >easy. I've done shoes. Gloves? Gloves were around as articles of posh civilian dress from the eleventh century (and probably before, but I don't know for sure) but these were for court and civilian dress. For ecclesiastical use, they were around in the seven hundreds (I think - my references are packed away) when they had an alternative name of "hand-shoes" (can't remember the exact Old English term). But for military use? I suspect they may have come in during the Elizabethan era - I can't think of any illustrations or ref.s before that (but this list might well know better . . . ). May seem odd when you consider the vulnerability of hands that military gloves are not commonly represented in the medieval period, but the same thing applies to the Greek and Roman period: the evidence just doesn't seem to be there. >I am probably going to use leather, rather than cloth (these gloves >are to protect my finger from possible impact with fast-moving >steel, doesn't sound like much but it works). If you want to have hand-protection, then metal gauntlets are your answer for late 15th cent. Europe. There are two forms: with seperate fingers of overlapping lames, and mitten-gauntlets (modern term), with the fingers protected by one to seven (or so) articulated plates stretching acoss the width of the fingers. These latter seem to have been (by manuscipt illustrations) common enough for the ordinary foot-soldier to wear. Most of them, however, are shown with bare hands. I have not seen any evidence of hand protection or gloves which are not metal gauntlets for the War of the Roses period. Metal gauntlets can be a bit more awkward to make than leather gloves, but I suspect they are the authentic answer. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: 08 Nov 95 14:59:30 EST From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: ISBN To: Fiona Thorne Subject: ISBN Numbers <> You're right. I checked out a book from the library and went to the bookstore to order me a copy and the ISBN was different. The reason: it'd been out of print and the book I had had the old ISBN and the new edition (w/no changes, just back in print) had a different number. Both were published here in the UK.... Rhane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 12:39:29 -0800 From: Judy McCourt Subject: The Bonnie Lass Found! |Hi All, | |I'm hoping some of you can help me locate Karen Chartrand, |owner of The Bonnie Lass. I received her catalog and placed |an order with her, but I haven't received it, nor have I |heard from her since September 15. Her AOL account (arisaid@aol.com) |doesn't exist any more. Has anyone heard from Karen lately? | |Thanks, | |Judy | Received the order last week! Thanks to everyone who replied to me! - -- Judy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 1995 11:50:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Gwyneth H. Crowley" Subject: ISBN#, John Scott is right but to confuse matters... publishers print different editions of the same book for different regions of the world hence different ISBN #'s so while you may be having a difficult time getting the British edition, the Americn version is well at hand or may not exist at all. I just found this list and I love it. I "dabble" in making costumes and I really like the research end of it more lately. Librarian to be in 6 weeks, Gwyneth Crowley gc6662@cnsvax.albany.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 19:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: 1770-80 Venetian panniers On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Denny Stone wrote: > I'm looking for advice from anyone who has constructed very wide (6+ feet) > panniers for museum or theatrical. > skirts out at a 90 degree angle from the body. If anyone has built > these....how did you do it? Cantelievered supports from edge to center? > Hard pannier upper edge? Caveating this with a disclaimer that I've never done these and it's not my period AT ALL! I saw a bustle someplace in England (either V&A or Bath, probably) that was attached at the waist on a band, then hung down the back. From the back of the band a peice of canvas hung down (actually--two peices laced together so you could control the width/depth a bit); this was also, I think, held in place by a band at hip level, but I'd have to check my bustle were affixed to the side of this and the tapes which spaced them attached to the waist. (I'm not very good at describing it and will happy to mail you a sketch--but the general effect was a bird-cage with one fabric side.) The canvass part held the rest of it away from the body and fairly ridged. Don't know what they did for full panniers, but it seems like the same theory would work, doubled, for them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 22:25:59 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: Re: Gloves I suggest that you try mittens. You can find photos of period mittens, and very fancy ones too, in numerous costuming books (sorry, I don't know which off-hand). But gloves are HARD. Making gloves used to be a trade in itself. And while I can see, barely, trying cobbling, I wouldn't try gloving! About 10 years ago I thought about making some gloves and I located an old book from my university library. Sorry -- again, I don't know the title. But a real glove has numerous small pieces for the thumb, etc., needs to be fitted very tightly, and needs to be sewn inside out and turned, and all kinds of other tricks. I believe that is true for the really old gloves -- 16th century, etc. -- as well as for more modern ones. If anyone knows differently, please correct me! Gail Finke/Myfanwy of Ceredigion gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 23:48:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Looking for Ms. Good-Dummy Does anyone have a contact number for the MY TWIN dress-maker's dummy makers? (I thought they advertised in Threads but I can't find it.) These are the foam dummies that you make a sloper to fit over so they match you. Please e-mail so this doesn't go bouncing three times around the world on two lists. *************************************************************************** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us goodston@netcom.com goodston@river.org Senior Designer & Chief Cat Herder, Wee Cottage, Daly City, California, USA *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 07:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: Tina Carney Subject: Re: Gloves I have a wonderful pattern I got from Quetta's Closet at Pennsic War this year. Although difficult, the cotton trial has gone well and now all I need id the nerve to cut the leather. Brighid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:33:54 -0500 (EST) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. On the "gravity-defying breasts" of cotehardies--- I found the article to which I referred in yesterday's post, and, according to the author, the correct silhouette _can_ be achieved through proper use of fabric grain and pattern cut. Her pattern consists of four pieces, and is based on research and the use of medieval, not modern, approaches to clothing construction. I sat there and looked at the article, trying to figure out a way to explain the technique, but it isn't really an article, it's more a series of notes to accompany a demonstration (at which I was not present, alas!) and it would be very hard to explain here... Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 20:02:59 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: China report and apology Your trip sounds FABULOUS. Last night, I watched the show "The Forbidden City" along with a short movie about a man who fishes on the Yangtze with cormorants (who actually get the fish). It was fascinating and I really want to go to China! (Mom has done extensive art history work in Chinese art and I was raised around it -- though Mom is as Euro as I am -- so it's "familiar") I have a beautiful embroidery courtesy of a bulk sale of household goods from my former (Chinese) landlady. I never really noticed it was embroidery until the other day. I guess I'd assumed it was a print silk, but it's not. It's about two feet by three, solid embroidery, no stitch longer than 1/4"! It's of an elephant in a field and is quite lovely. _Deirdre At 9:55 AM 11/6/95, Dorothy Stein wrote: > A common response to a poll that asked why daughters are desirable > was that they could do embroidery. Indeed, my daughter-in-law > showed me the first piece she did, at age eleven: a blouse-front, > and very pretty it was. We are both fond of darning old sweaters, > but, while mine look darned, hers look embellished. (Similarly in > cooking: all Chinese women seem to master certain techniques that > make me feel like my fingers are webbed when I try them.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:22:38 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. > Replying to David Brewer's query on "Medieval gloves: any info?": > Try Cunnington's History of Occupational Costume. There is a glove section with manscript portrayls of common people wearing them!! Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:06:34 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Corset Web Page I'm working away on the elizabethan corset web page, the ultimate in specialization on the web. I was wondering if anyone here had addresses for 1.Mail order Silk 2.Mail order period fabrics (silk satin, real linen, etc) 3. wooden busks 4. spring steel boning I do have the addresses for Thai silks, WinterSilk, and Sterling silks. I also have the addresses for Amazon Drygoods and JAS Townsend. Are there any other good mailorder places out there (especially for the spring steel boning)? Please send them to my email address at aleed@indiana.edu. Or you can send them to this list, if you'd like to share them with everyone. Thanks, Drea Leed ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them to to warp. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #246 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!