From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #248 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, November 12 1995 Volume 3, Number 248 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Gloves and Gauntlets Re: cotehardies etc. Re: costume pattern request Historical Hairdresser in East Bay Area re: 19th century supplies Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Historic style hairdressing Victorian fichus Pith Helmets Re: cotehardies etc. Re: ISBN numbers Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Victorian fichus Panne Velour Material for Tunic quilting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 12:17:28 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Re: Gloves and Gauntlets - ---------------Original Message--------------- >In reply to:Rhodry I'm using a leather gauntlrt as a base, and then sewing over it a butchers glove. The butchers glove is finely made chainmail, and is extremely srturdy. It's giving me a nice look even if it is just sometyhing I made up... Miesje. - ----------End of Original Message---------- There is a Don from Houston who 11 years ago used the mailed glove for fighting. You may wish to track him down to see what he did. Don Erik of the Silver Hand was his name, (although I think he used Silvanus too), he was a cadet to Don Simon at the time I think. - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:59:15 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. > On bias cuts and using wide fabric: Based on how some original > garments are pieced together, I would hypothesize that they > sewed the widths of cloth together and then cut them out for > many of these bias-cut or very wide gored garments. I am basing > this suggestion on the pattern layouts in Janet Arnold's Patterns > of Fashion, and some information that cloth was not normally > woven in very wide widths. Does anyone have any primary > sources documenting this? > > I can only tell you that some cloth was woven on very wide widths. Broadlooms produces cloths from 1.5 to 2 yards wide, and some paynim looms even wider when weaving satin for tents. Zupko's _Medieval Weights and Measures_ of all kinds of time connotations are great, he is an expert, and nice as he is a "homeboy" professor. Also, the History of Agricultural Prices by Thorold Rogers, the Museum of London Textile book discusses looms and loom and cloth widths. John Munro's work in Flanders for the fourteenth century, his books and articles are a treasure trove of information. I would have to look at the few translations of the Great Wardrobe Account to see if they mention widths, I know they often specify lengths. For the paynim stuff the Hispanic Textile book is illuminating. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:05:29 -0500 (EST) From: Karen Mercedes Subject: Re: costume pattern request On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, David Dill wrote: > Hi! I am looking for a pattern to make a 1969-looking > suede coat with fringe, such as was worn by many > hippies of the day. If you have any info on how I > might find such a thing, I would surely appreciate it. > If not, any other information, such as where I might > find an example of one (perhaps in a particular movie > or something) so that I could really look at it to I have the real thing, from the 1960s (not the pattern, the jacket) -- it is a jacket, not a full-length coat, but if you're interested, I would be willing to sell it to you for you to either use or reverse engineer. It's about a size 10 (women's)/38 men's. Karen Mercedes mercedes@access.digex.net +--------------------------------------------------+ | You know, it never seems to occur to people that | | a man might just want to write a piece of music. | | -- Ralph Vaughan Williams | +--------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 14:47:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Nikkel Subject: Historical Hairdresser in East Bay Area Does anyone know of someone that does historic style hairdressing in the Berkelely/Oakland/Richmond, CA area? I need mine done in a 1910 era style twice in December. They need to be willing work on Saturdays. Thanks. Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@bbnplanet.com Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@bbnplanet.com Western Region Sales Administrator tel. direct: (415) 528-7114 BBN Planet Corporation tel. sales: (415) 528-7100 3801 East Bayshore Road fax: (415) 934-2665 Palo Alto, California 94303 USA http://www.barrnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 14:47:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: re: 19th century supplies I got my wireless cataog(PBS) yesterday. In it is "The Historical Supply Catalogue" by Alan Wellikoff. I know nothing about it and do not have an ISBN, but the discription says it has everything "from Victorian lighting to edwardian underwear". Sounds like an interesting source for you 19th century recreationist types out there. Kimberly Smay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:41:39 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. In message Bill Hubbard writes: > Replying to David Brewer's query on "Medieval gloves: any info?": [...I'm replying a little "behind the loop" because I got placed on the 'bounce' list; trans-atlantic routing problems I expect; pretty ironic really, since Bill probably lives within a mile of me...] > >I have never seen anything about gloves. Shoes?- yes. Shoes are > >easy. I've done shoes. Gloves? ... > But for military use? I suspect they may have come in during the > Elizabethan era - I can't think of any illustrations or ref.s before that > (but this list might well know better . . . ). I'd never gone looking myself, A quick skeet through some handy books shows most soldiers bare-handed, I think that the piccy of the Burgundian soldiers lined up, polearms at back, archers at front with a line of stakes shows gloves. Archers are shown sometimes with the drawing-hand gloved (in one case with a three-fingered archery glove). > May seem odd when you consider the vulnerability of hands that military > gloves are not commonly represented in the medieval period, but the same > thing applies to the Greek and Roman period: the evidence just doesn't seem > to be there. If we know they wore gloves (was there a guild of glovers? I know that glovers had special leather cutting knives) and know that they were pretty well shod, how likely is it that a man didn't own gloves and how likely is he not to take/wear them on campaign? This is not an especially warm/dry country; check your atlas... we're on a level with Canada. > >I am probably going to use leather, rather than cloth (these gloves > >are to protect my finger from possible impact with fast-moving > >steel, doesn't sound like much but it works). > > If you want to have hand-protection, then metal gauntlets are your answer > for late 15th cent. Europe. There are two forms: with seperate fingers of > overlapping lames, and mitten-gauntlets (modern term), with the fingers > protected by one to seven (or so) articulated plates stretching acoss the > width of the fingers. I believe the English were known for their own distinctive form of plate gauntlet. > These latter seem to have been (by manuscipt illustrations) common enough > for the ordinary foot-soldier to wear. Most of them, however, are shown > with bare hands. I don't think I've ever seen gauntlets on a common soldier... please give references! > I have not seen any evidence of hand protection or gloves which are not > metal gauntlets for the War of the Roses period. Metal gauntlets can be a > bit more awkward to make than leather gloves, but I suspect they are the > authentic answer. Awkward? I should coco! I've seen enough plug-ugly homemade trash gauntlets to last this lifetime, without making them m'self... If I were a rich man I could just pop down the A61 to White Rose Armoury and get Dave to make me some, but I'm not. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 18:39:30 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Historic style hairdressing Jamie, I've had problems with a lot of hairdressers, who always want to cut my hair very short with or without my consent. I'm constantly explaining that I need to leave it at least a medium length so I can attach hairpieces for historic hairdressing (I do several eras of historic dance). They think I'm weird. Anyway, my usual, sort-of-OK hairdresser went on maternity leave and turned me over to another one at the same salon. I was apprehensive, but the new hairdresser turned out to be sympathetic because she went to school in Los Angeles to study historic hairdressing and makeup. She wanted to work for the studios, but this didn't work out financially. Anyway, I asked whether she is willing to do historic hairdressing and she said yes. However, she wants the client to give her an idea of what is wanted ahead of time, so she can do research (unless, presumably, you have done the research yourself). I didn't go into this, but if you want hairpieces attached you may have to provide them. The hairdresser's name is: Liz Reznik Topps Salon 420 3rd #203 Oakland, CA 510/893-2587 Liz does work at the salon on Saturdays. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 19:06:03 -0800 From: Heather Meadows Subject: Victorian fichus I keep looking through at pictures of the most beautiful fichus on victorian day dresses, and I'd like to put one on my dickens' dress. But I cant' seem to find any pictures that show how they generally looked in back, and without that I can't figure out how to attach it to a back lacing bodice..! any advice would be helpful... thanks! - -heather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 02:20:15 -0500 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Pith Helmets Hey list, Does anyone have a good list of sources for Pith Helmets or Sun Helmets? I am not interested in the stamped plastic kind, but in the real cork type, espectially WWI era reproductions or slightly earlier. Thanks! Glen Dresback Norman, Oklahoma, USA. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:10:43 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. On Fri, 10 Nov 1995 julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM wrote: > On bias cuts and using wide fabric: Based on how some original > garments are pieced together, I would hypothesize that they > sewed the widths of cloth together and then cut them out for > many of these bias-cut or very wide gored garments. I am basing I would tend to phrase it "cut them out ... and sewed them together". If you are envisioning sewing lengths of uncut fabric together to form a single extra-wide piece and then cutting something out of that, I find it a bit unlikely from a practical point of view. > this suggestion on the pattern layouts in Janet Arnold's Patterns > of Fashion, and some information that cloth was not normally > woven in very wide widths. Does anyone have any primary > sources documenting this? The cuts of the Dark Ages and medieval garments that I've been studying point to a "normal" fabric width ranging between 12-22 inches. (The very narrow apparent widths I've found have been for silk brocades -- wool and linen fabrics tend towards the higher end of the range.) This estimate is based on the maximum width of any piece, especially when corroborated by the same measurement appearing as the width of several pattern pieces in a garment. (Most of my sources don't specifically note selvedges -- which would be another good clue.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 10:57:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: ISBN numbers I'm a writer who doesn't know the ISBN numbers of my own books. They exist for someone else's convenience, not mine or the reader's. I say, don't get pressured into thinking the ISBN is a requirement for locating a book. It is the job of libraries, bookstores, etc. to make it easier, not harder, to find the book you want. That's why library associated software is set up with such choices as the first four letters of author and title, etc. You should be able to find a book with only the information about it that comes to mind. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:54:00 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. According to _The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons_ ed. Leonid Tarassuk and Claude Blair: Under "Gauntlets" Plate gauntlets replaced chain mail gauntlets worn over leather gloves. "In fact the oldest type of plate gauntlet on record, dating to the early 14th century, replaced the mail glove and was similar to the wide-cuffed leather gauntlet worn today by motorcyclists. It, too, was made of leather but covered with small riveted lames." The book goes on to discuss early 15th century articulated finger gauntlets, then the fact that mitten gauntlets became popular from early 15th to the first half of the 16th. They were always worn with a leather glove. "An important variation to emerge during the third quarter of the 15th century was the gauntlet with a particularly long pointed cuff. There was nothing under gloves, except a dueling glove of 16th and 17th century Italy. >If we know they wore gloves (was there a guild of glovers? I know that >glovers had special leather cutting knives) and know that they were >pretty well shod, how likely is it that a man didn't own gloves and >how likely is he not to take/wear them on campaign? This is not an >especially warm/dry country; check your atlas... we're on a level with >Canada. Check with _Accessories of Dress_ by Lester & Morris. This is out of print, so if you can't find a copy, let me know and I'll check out the one in our library. (I've been so tempted to "lose" it and pay the penalty...sigh...it's so hard to be honest!) >> I have not seen any evidence of hand protection or gloves which are not >> metal gauntlets for the War of the Roses period. Metal gauntlets can be a >> bit more awkward to make than leather gloves, but I suspect they are the >> authentic answer. > >Awkward? I should coco! I've seen enough plug-ugly homemade trash >gauntlets to last this lifetime, without making them m'self... >If I were a rich man I could just pop down the A61 to White Rose >Armoury and get Dave to make me some, but I'm not. Yes, but as costumers we have something the armourers want! My boyfriend got his articulated mitten gauntlets (excellent work) in exchange for my researching and creating a Bedouin costume for the armourer. Bartering works! Are you planning to wear armour? If not, then a protected leather gauntlet is probebly your best bet. If there is real danger to your hands, you might want to quilt the lining or sew small plates of metal or barrel plastic onto the lining of the gauntlet. If you are wearing chain mail, then you are an earlier period in combat, and can wear chain gloves over leather. The book also said that sometimes the gloves were attached to the arms of the body piece, with a slit so you could put your hand out when not engaged. (Sounds like our Emily Post discussion doesn't it?) Sorry for the vagueries...I'm behind on my mail, so haven't read the original postings. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 19:06:03 -0800 From: Heather Meadows Subject: Victorian fichus I keep looking through at pictures of the most beautiful fichus on victorian day dresses, and I'd like to put one on my dickens' dress. But I cant' seem to find any pictures that show how they generally looked in back, and without that I can't figure out how to attach it to a back lacing bodice..! any advice would be helpful... thanks! - -heather ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:06:18 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Panne Velour I would like to make a 13th century style gown to wear to SCA events etc. My question is this...eventhough panne velour was not around then, would it be a completely unpardonable sin to make the gown out of this material?? I just really love the stuff and I think its so pretty, but would it be terribly out of place? Thanks in advance for your input! Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:06:20 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Material for Tunic Hello again! I'm wondering what type of material would be appropriate for a wearable 12th Century English man's tunic...I don't want to spend tons of money (as I don't have tons of money) but I'd like the right effect. Also what colours would be appropriate? Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:02:03 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: quilting I went to my fabric store and showed my first attempt at machine quilting to the clerk who was giving me advise about quilting. He was floored. It seems that it is difficult to zig zag with metallic thread. So, here's how to do it, along with how I'm quilting things. The thread I'm using is from Walmart. It comes on a big spool, and is called Fil Metallise. It's 60% Polyester, 40% Metallic, and it is only printed in French, leading me to believe its...French...(Wow, such deductive powers!) I find it holds together much, much better than Guterman. I lowered my tension down to almost nothing...half-way between 1 and 0. For the quilting, I drew the lines on the backing fabric. After pinning all layers together, I machine basted in verticle lines several inches apart in a contrasting thread. I then machine basted along my (diagonal) stitching lines with gold thread. I pulled out the contrasting basting, then stitched over my gold threads, right side up, with a buttonhold stitch. It looks great. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #248 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!