From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #253 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, November 17 1995 Volume 3, Number 253 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Material for Tunic re:19th Century Maternity Clothes Re: Looking for Lists Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes 19th Century Masque Ball RE: In Search of Starch Re: knitting Looking for CDV Re: Material for Tunic Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves and knitting Medieval hunting costume Re: Medieval hunting costume socks and footcloths Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves and knitting Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves Re: Material for Tunic RE: Medieval hunting costume Corsets Re: Corsets Organ Pipe Pleats address for LaLame?? Re: In Search of Starch ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:56:14 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: Material for Tunic It's such a shame that we don't have the huge variety of wool fabrics used in times past available at the average fabric store; it's mostly coat-weight and suit-weight wools, nowadays. Does anyone know of mailorder places where you can get unusual wool fabrics? ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 11:34:24 PST From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Subject: re:19th Century Maternity Clothes Thank you, Julie Cheetham, for the excellent posting on wrappers. _Calico Chronicle_ deals with Texas, but is not irrelevant to other Western States. Younger reinactors should be warned that wrappers were considered unsuitable for unmarried women, possibly because of an association with (gasp) an "increasing state"... or perhaps with "loose women"? Chalk up one benefit for being an older woman in Victorian times! Women would be corsetted beneath the wrapper, even during pregnancy; but in more comfortable versions such as Past Patterns gestation stays. Corsets were still considered proper for pregnancy in the 1940s and 50s, as my mom will attest (and per earlier threads with Dee Wilson's research). Danine Cozzens (who contemplates making a black silk wrapper for mature comfort, and wearing it with her very comfortable new Edwardian corset) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:03:45 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: Re: Looking for Lists On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 cwood@primenet.com wrote: > Try Re-enactor's Net, which last time I checked, was at > http://www.webcom.com/custer/. It has links to several different > re-enactment groups from different parts of the world. However, even though > Custer is mentioned, there are no groups pertaining to the Western military > listed. I haven't found a comprehensive listing of re-enactment groups > anywhere, but one really is needed. There are so many groups and some of > them are quite small and specialized. > > What time period exactly where you looking for? > > ysabeau > > I re-enact in the west and belong to several organizations out here... What information are you looking for... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:01:14 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes To the best of my knowledge the women of the 19th century would have worn the same fashions for maternity clothing. You kinda have to think "Victorian". There are certain things that were simply proper no-questions-asked. I have read references to "maternity corsets". However, I suspect those were used mostly be the upper classes who didn't have to do much more than look nice. Many women did actually dispense with the corset altogether. You can especially see that in pictures of the army laundresses in the west. For most women, maternith clothes would consist of alterations on their exsisting clothes as opposed to a new set of clothing. Re morning clothes were an individual's regular clothes before their relative died...dyed black. Hope this helps.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:10:43 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: 19th Century Masque Ball I am currently trying to design a dress for an 1860's Masque Ball and am having a terrible time finding resources on both costume design and ettique for the occasion. Does anyone know of anything? Crystal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:53:40 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: RE: In Search of Starch You wrote: > >I thought someone had said a while back that >water and CORNSTARCH was the basics of >good old fashioned starch? I've been told potato water works as well, but I have been lucky to find plastic jugs of liquid starch in the local grocery I shopped at when I still lived in Mpls. MN. I haven't had to look for it here in the Detroit area yet. Glenna Jo Christen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 21:41:43 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: Re: knitting In her books ("Knitting without tears", I think) Elizabeth Zimmerman (the great goddess of knitting) talked about the inferioror wire and metal circular needles available earier in this century. She disliked using them, and loves the modern ones. There are knitting books that say that round knitting (on a frame) predates flat (back and forth) knitting on two needles. Look at the Lucet. That kind of knitting is actually simpler. In stipes or color work you can tell wher the spiral row changes occur.. There are none in single color color circular knitting. I like to add seams as EZ (see above) suggests afterwards with a crochet hook. NeenH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 23:14:57 -0800 From: Gordon Monson Subject: Looking for CDV I was recently given a brochure dating from about two years ago from a company in North Dakota called "Couteriere de Victoriana" or "CDV," purveying fabrics, notions, patterns and books geared to the 19th century reproduction costumer. When I called the number on the brochure to ask for a catalog, I found that the number now belongs to someone else. Does anyone know whether they are still in business? The proprietor's name was Sharon Brown, which is unfortunately too common a name for phone directories to be much use. Directory assistance could not give me a listing for either the proprietor or the business name. Thanks for any help. Shelley Monson monsons@hooked.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 22:41:52 -1000 From: Jan McEwen Subject: Re: Material for Tunic Susan wrote: > Wool comes in many different thicknesses. If you select > suiting or coating wool, you _will_ sweat. If, however, > you pick something lighter, you will be surprised at how > _un_ hot it is! I'll believe it! At least, I'd like the opportunity to try it. It is usually warm/hot in Hawaii...so I can put it to the test. BUT, wool is very hard to find here and prohibitively expensive. Does anyone know of any mail order sources for lighter wools? Jan - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii SCA: Catriona Stewart, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:04:12 GMT From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves and knitting > > The only unturned gloves I ever wore or saw others wear were made of > pigskin which is a thicker leather. My conclusion is that if the cut > edges were on the inside of the glove and the leather was thick, the > gloves would be uncomfortable, and make the wearer clumsy when doing > anything more precise than, say, raking a lawn. > > Unless your historical depiction clearly shows that the cut edges are on > the outside of the glove, I would think (for the above reasoning) that > it would make sense to turn them so that the cut edges are on the inside > where they would not interfere with whatever task you need to perform. To go under gantlets, I'd expect thicker leather with the cut edges on the outside (and for drawings to not show them, being hidden by the gauntlets). But we've already covered the dangers of "it seems reasonable that..." > IMNSHO, anyone who loves knitting and history should read, own, > memorize (etc.) Bishop Richard Rutt's _A_History_of_Hand_Knitting_; it > has some surprising things in it [...] > He debunks once and for all the myth that chain > mail is "knitted" as we understand the term (though it is certainly > "joined together," one of the alternate meanings of the word). Is the "knitted" mail mentioned in the post below an exception, or an example of the persistence of the myth? (And would it actually have been closer to the nalbinding you mentioned?) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:44:16 -0400 From: Kjotvi@aol.com Subject: Knitted mail [...] 2) In Osprey Men at Arms book on armor of the Roman Republic, they showed a diagram of early form of the Lorica Hamata formed of mail that was supposedly made of a length of wire literally knitted, ie: repeatedly looped through itself in a continnuing sort of chain stitch. The text mentioned that this form was fairly quickly replaced with the far stronger and more flexible form of seperately interlinked wire rings that would remain the standard throughout the Middle Ages, and is what most of us think of when we hear the term "Mail". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:59:46 CST From: "Cassandra McCraw" Subject: Medieval hunting costume Greetings, I am looking for sources of illustrations of Medieval hunting clothing. My spouse *really* wants something worn by a Russian nobleman (circa 1100-1200) to go boar hunting, but will settle for about anything pre- 1500, since he wants to wear it in about two weeks! And in all of Fayetteville AR, despite our love of wild Razorbacks, I just cannot seem to find any illustrations of medieval Russians hunting boar. :) I appreciate any help! Cassandra McCraw Special Collections Division, University of Arkansas Libraries E-MAIL: CMCCRAW@SATURN.UARK.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:54:55 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Medieval hunting costume Try _The Hunting Book of Gaston Phoebus_. It was originally done in the 14th century as a manuscript. A 15th century version has been reprinted as a fascimile. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:08:46 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: socks and footcloths During the recent postings dealing with knitting, the subject of socks *having been around along time* was mentioned. That got me thinking about when and where socks first appeared. Also, there is the eastern European custom of wearing footcloths instead of socks. The footcloths are rectanglar squares of cloth that are wrapped around the feet and worn inside shoes or boots. I'm curious about the origins of socks, and also footcloths. The concepts of the footcloths seems simple and it is very possible earlier than socks or stockings. Does anyone have any documentation on the when and where of these two techniques of covering the feet, while wearing shoes? Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 09:16:24 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves and knitting On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Alan Braggins wrote: > To go under gantlets, I'd expect thicker leather with the cut edges on the > outside (and for drawings to not show them, being hidden by the gauntlets). > But we've already covered the dangers of "it seems reasonable that..." I won't suggest this as anything other than a technological possibility, but recall that with thicker leather one can also make butted seams where there is next to no extra thickness at the seam line. The Museum of London shoe book shows how this was used in the context of shoes. I must admit that most of the medieval gloves I've seen -- whether surviving examples or in portraits -- have been of relatively light-weight materials. The one exception is the farmer's two-fingered mittens in the Lutterel Psalter, which look fairly heavy (and clumsy). Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:47:28 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 - gloves In message <9511171204.AA02090@setanta.demon.co.uk> Alan Braggins writes: > > To go under gantlets, I'd expect thicker leather with the cut edges on the > outside (and for drawings to not show them, being hidden by the gauntlets). > But we've already covered the dangers of "it seems reasonable that..." A friend tells me that he handled some gauntlets containing leather gloves (which he thinks were original to the gauntlet, or an exact replacement of originals done in an earlier century). All he could tell me about the seams was that the seams along the back sides of each finger were external and the resulting ridge used to stich through to attach the gloves to the leather strips that the finger plates were attached to. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 12:59:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Material for Tunic > > Wool? Was that what they wore in the summer? Yes. I spent some time talking to the people doing the recreation medival palace inside the Tower of London this summer, and according to the Clerk, he was reasonably comfortable all summer (which was unBritishly hot this year-- 80s and 90s) in wool, with linen hose and sark underneath. The linen wicks the damp away and cools you. Remember, most desert-dweller's robes are wool! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 15:17:09 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: RE: Medieval hunting costume Greetings, I am looking for sources of illustrations of Medieval hunting clothing. My spouse *really* wants something worn by a Russian nobleman (circa 1100-1200) to go boar hunting, but will settle for about anything pre- 1500, since he wants to wear it in about two weeks! And in all of Fayetteville AR, despite our love of wild Razorbacks, I just cannot seem to find any illustrations of medieval Russians hunting boar. :) Many years ago I wanted a huntsman's outfit for an SCA event that I was helping run. So I found one. I is c.1300. It is breeches with a cote that fell below the knees and a sleeveless over cote split as if to ride a horse, (in front and back). The book suggested that when not on a horse the corners of the over-cote were tucked into the belt, which is what I did. It also has a hat that has a round brim rolled under the cap so that it looks like a cap. This was take from an illistration from Historic Costume for the Stage by Lucy Barton, pp133. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:35:30 -0500 From: HiNonny@aol.com Subject: Corsets Could anyone please tell me where to find a corset pattern? I know that Amazon Drygoods carries some. Are these the best available? Or is there something better? Thanks in Advance, Amanda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:56:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Subject: Re: Corsets On Fri, 17 Nov 1995 HiNonny@aol.com wrote: > Could anyone please tell me where to find a corset pattern? I know that > Amazon Drygoods carries some. Are these the best available? Or is there > something better? > > > > Thanks in Advance, > > Amanda > Allow me to share my experience. I ordered a Past Patterns corset kit from Amazon several years ago. The price, compared to the finished corsets I have seen at reenacments, was quite reasonable. All needed materials were included, and the instructions were very clear. I am a seamstress of limited talent, took it rather slowly and had no problems to speak of. I am still happily wearing the same corset and considering the purchase of another kit in a different pattern. Sandy Waldrop Save the Union swaldrop@prairienet.org Breckenridge for President ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 18:20:04 -0500 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Organ Pipe Pleats I must have missed the origional posting that has been referred to about organpipe pleating, the lady may have also mentioned a WWW site, but I, alas, have no WWW capability. Please, Please, Please, could we hear a reprise on the subject? Thanks so much - Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 16:17:03 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: address for LaLame?? Does anyone have the address for LaLame (new york company specializing in ecclesiastical brocades)? thanks Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 21:41:13 -0500 From: Christy546@aol.com Subject: Re: In Search of Starch Depending on what you are going to use it for, you might try fabric sizing. It can be fairly easily found in art stores for painters to use on their canvases. Good luck! Christy ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #253 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!