From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #257 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, November 22 1995 Volume 3, Number 257 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Material for Tunic Corsets.... Thanks... Re: velvet Tear-away clothes Re: Corsets in the SF Bay Area corsets and childbearing Re: Lavender's Green Corsets in Europe ? Corsets in the SF Bay Area Re: velvet Need advice on embroidery 15th c. English Garb Gold thread Flax info. HELP!!!!! Flax info. HELP!!!!! Re: velvet Norman Gown ??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 17:59:19 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: Re: Material for Tunic On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Sarah E. Goodman wrote: > > > Wool? Was that what they wore in the summer? > > Remember, most desert-dweller's robes are wool! > > Reenacting out west you learn pretty fast that your wool uniform acts kinda like a swamp cooler. It actually keeps you surprisingly comfortable in the heat. The armies posted out west wore dark wool uniforms at least till the end of the century.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 18:24:46 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: Corsets.... Something that should be noted in the reported waist measurements is that when someone stated their waist size, they were measuring the corset and not their own waists... Also.. not all women wore corsets.. those in the upper classes of course wore them because society dictated... however, there are a number of photograhs which show women who were plainly not wearing corsets. I was surprised at the numbers actually. Corsets simply were not practical for women who had to work. Crystal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 18:33:11 -0700 (MST) From: Wayfinder Subject: Thanks... Thanks... everyone for all of your input!... You've all been very helpful.... now to the drawing board.. And we.... the Civil War Ladies League (in New Mexico) put on a Winter Gala every year... this year however, we decided to do something a little different... hence the "Masqued Ball". Crystal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 00:03:12 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Re: velvet In message <199511211404.JAA12788@moe.coe.uga.edu> sschmidt@moe.coe.uga.edu (Stacia Schmidt) writes: > Does anyone know when velvet first started to become a commonly used fabric > for clothing? Specifically looking at the countries of Italy, France, and > England? It's a bit of a grisly source; and not authoratative, but in her book "The Princes in the Tower" Alison Weir writes (regarding two child's corpses found in the tower with 'pieces of rag and velvet about them': "According to information given to the author by a textile expert contacted through the Archeological Resource Centre in York, velvet was invented in the 1400's in Renaissance Italy, and was not made in England before the sixteenth century." Evidently they appeared earlier tho', another book I have quotes 'a crack-brained priest' John Ball who says although "we all spring from the same father and mother [Adam and Eve]... [the aristocracy] are clad in velvet and camlet lined with ermine, while we go clad in coarse cloth". Sumptuary Laws in England of 1463 mention Velvet: no batchelor knights (except Knights of the Garter) were to wear velvet upon velvet; no gentlemen or esquiers lower that the rank of knight were to wear velvet at all. In 1482 only those above the rank of knight were allowed doublets or gowns of velvet. The Howard Household accounts detail brigandine body-armour being lent to his followers including at least one covered in purple velvet, a gift to Sir John Howard from King Edward. The family of Sir John Paston had a few velvet pieces also, some of which came via the estate of Sir John Fastolf. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:57:59 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: Tear-away clothes >I a looking for information on how to make tear-away shirts. I need to hide >a yellow shirt under a purple one. It also needs to be used repeatedly, so I >figure velco is involved somehow. Does anyone have any technique ideas or >places I could look to find some basic instructions? I would appreciate any >help you all can give. >Thanks, Ange in Denver I made a tear-away skirt for a play. Velcro would not work, I tried. It took too much force and support. As soon as the tear started, it stopped for lack of support. It would need to be a very short strip. We ended up using a VERY long basting stitch and restitching yup the skirt every night. It only took a minute (LONG stitches) and the tearing sound was right. The velcro only comes in black and white and it always shows. Tearing the tear-away takes quite a bit of practice, even the basting needs some support to get it to finish. NeenH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 01:02:47 -0500 (EST) From: BARBARASHU@delphi.com Subject: Re: Corsets in the SF Bay Area Let's not forget B.R. Creations P.O.Box 4201 Mountain View 94040 Phone/fax (415)961-5354 I've got their E-mail address around here somewhere. It's Compuserve, that much I do remember. Can look for E-mail address if anyone really needs it. Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:58:08 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: corsets and childbearing Uterin prolapse is usually a result (even today!) of medical mismanagement/interence of delivery. Often caused by coercing a woman to push when there is no urge and the use of forceps. There was a period of time when doctors were starting to be morecommonly engaged in childbirth, and often used forceps in a manner which caused permenant damage to the wall separating the vagina and the bladder, causing cronic seepage, infection, odor, and pain. Many women were confined to their rooms as invalids due to this. It took many years until a "young upstart" did some experiments (on charity women in a hospital for unwed mothers) to discover how to prevent this natural problem, he figured out how to stitch her up properly, then figured out how to leave them alone, so as to not cause the problem in the first place. I believe the article on this was in Mothering Magazine. Many women had weak abdominal muscles due to the stays, then, while pregnant, that is asbacerated, leading to all the patent solutions to a problem caused by society, just like modern medicine! (I had a post natal infection that was probably iatrogenic. Many friends had all sorts of complications that were, also) You can buy uterine supports through all the yuppie baby catalogs now! They don't call it prolasp, just support and comfort, but they still exist! Of course, the standard pregnancy exercises (which are similar to back exercises) work as well, are cheaper and safer... NeenH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 08:48:30 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: Re: Lavender's Green Barbara "in foggy L.A." asked about Lavender's Green of Hillsboro Oregon, which makes custom historic clothing. I cannot speak to the various "levels". However, my husband had one Regency era outift--wool tailcoat and breeches and satin vest--made, and we were very satisfied. I would say it was on the "dressmaking" level--much nicer and more authentically done than a costume, but for economy's sake, we compromised and used modern techniques where it wouldn't show. Both hand and machine work were high quality and effort was put into the detail work. We did pick out and send our own fabric so as not to rely on what another might select. We also sent a photo of the outfit we wanted and it was faithfully reproduced. What impressed us most, however, was the fit she attained with only his measurements. He never went down for a fitting, but everything was perfect. Of course, it was probably helpful that I know how to measure for sewing/tailoring. If a person did not know how to do this and was not going for a fitting, it would be wise to obtain the services of an experienced person to take the measurements. Overall, we were pleased with the work and the service and felt it was good value for the price. Julie "in foggy Seattle." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 19:18:48 +0200 (EET) From: Lynoure Rajam{ki Subject: Corsets in Europe ? Does anybody know good corsetieres in Europe ? I live in Finland and have been searching for a corsetiere for years... Ordering made-to-measure corset from the other side of the Atlantic would cost so much extra (customs take about 20% extra... *sigh*) Lynoure ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:48:27 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Corsets in the SF Bay Area My new studio is up and running, so: I am currently taking orders for both custom and ready made corsets. For more information. please contact me direct. Erin Moody erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu 510-444-6244 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: velvet "Velvet" isn't always woven. When I was at the V&A in the early 1980's they had an example of 15th cent. "velvet" which was actually what we would call "flocked". Red on a natural ground as I recall. I presume some type of wool lint glued to the ground. The example was too heavy to be used for clothing but a lighter weight background fabric could have been used to produce clothing. I have no idea what glued the "lint" to the ground but it had held up for nearly 500 years. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 1995 15:07:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Need advice on embroidery Hello Everyone: I would welcome any advice on embroidering the hem, sleeves and bodice of a c. 1812 ladys' evening gown. Just to complicate things, my fabric is a transparent silk. I'll probably complete this project around the second millenium, but I would love to hear about your experience. I'll be off for minor surgery for a week, so I won't be able to respond or thank folks for a while. Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:10:09 -0500 From: monalisa@sover.net (Veda Crewe Joseph) Subject: 15th c. English Garb >It's time to re-make all my kit for next year, time to push all the >other slobs in my group to do the same. A handbook for costume is >in order... and only I'm going to write it. > >Having asked the list for info regarding gloves and been pleasantly >surprised by the volume of response, I'd like to ask more generally >for pointers to sources regarding costume as a whole for, ideally, >1460s England or, more loosely, for late medieval northern europe. > >I'm already working my way through the h-costume lists >bibliographies and I have to say the books my local library are >coming up with are quite unimpresive. Somewhere out there must be >the material I'm looking for. > >For example, I have seen exactly one copy of a publication called >"The Complete Anachronist", which was regarding coats-of-plates and >brigandines. Not only was it a credible academic treatment of the >subject it was a splendid practical guide as well. I'm sure there >are many more in this series: are they as good? and where can I get >some? > >All pointers much appreciated. > >-- >David Brewer, Sheffield, UK. > It seems that the information on the Complete Anachronists has already been given. Have you investigated the Museum of London? They have a series of books from the London digs which are loaded with artifacts from this time period. There is "Knives and Scabbards", "Shoes and Pattens", "Dress Assesories" and "Clothing and Textiles". (I am not completely sure of the titles, but they are close enough. Anyhow, they have a wealth of useful information. They are very scholarly and full of pictures and diagrams. Good luck. _________________________________________________ VEDA CREWE JOSEPH ......Making haste to accomplish much, before the snow flies. Known in the Medieval world as Mistress Morwynna Cryw. The student strives to learn to be a master, but the master is always a student. Ancient Proverb. _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 12:08:31 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Gold thread Re: The real gold thread. My mother used to take classes at the Royal School of Needlework - the place they do the banners and coronation gowns and other such sumptuous things. She bought most of her gold thread and stuff from the School, and the rest from a little shop just near Salisbury Cathedral. Now, this WAS 20 years ago, but knowing England, the School is definitely still going and the shop probably is, and still being run by the same little old lady or her daughter! Undoubtedly one of our British correspondents could give us the address and telephone number of the School? (Please?) + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" /_.~ ~,_\ | | Australia's answer to the werewolf? \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:17:01 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Flax info. HELP!!!!! Please help me with this crazy paper!! I need to write a paper on flax or linen. The origins, where it was first used, what is it used for today, ect.. I also need to get samples from a company that works with it, so I need an address. PLEASE, If anyone has any tidbit of information I would be ever so greatful. I have not had time to research this very much, between a full job and full time school. Only 24 hours in a day, and I must sleep at least a few of them. Thank you in advance for your kindness, Kimberly syrilla@aol.com P.S. If you would not mind me quoting you please say so in your message. Thanks HAPPY THANKSGIVING ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 21:14:22 -0800 From: brettwi@ix.netcom.com (Brett Williams ) Subject: Re: velvet You wrote: > >"Velvet" isn't always woven. When I was at the V&A in the early >1980's they had an example of 15th cent. "velvet" which was actually >what we would call "flocked". Red on a natural ground as I recall. I >presume some type of wool lint glued to the ground. The example was >too heavy to be used for clothing but a lighter weight background >fabric could have been used to produce clothing. I have no idea what >glued the "lint" to the ground but it had held up for nearly 500 >years. > Fascinating! I wonder what the glue was....:) I was leafing through a Compleat Anachronist I have, and came across this list: First Known Mentions of Textiles from Linthicum unless noted all dates are English. B= before; A = after; ? means it is mentioned by Linthicum, but no date is given for its first appearance. Woolen Cloths: Bays (baise): 1546 Broadcloth: mid-1300-s, plain weave 2 yards wide Buffin 1572 Cambric: 1446, a woven tape Callamanco; ca. 1550 Chamot: early 1400, worsted or silk Crewel: 1467 Durance: ? Flannel: 1345 Frieze: 1376 Frizado: 1527 Grosgrain (gros de Naples): ca 1599; hair, silk or worsted Kendal: 1389 Kersey: 1389 Linsey-woolsey: b. 1483, linen and wool blend Mockado (mock velvet): B. 1599 - silk and wool, or silk and linen with linen back Motley: 1371; variegated colors Penistone: 1520 perpetuana: B. 1599 Philip and cheney: A. 1600 Puke: 1466 Rash: 1575 wool; or silk Rugg: ca. 1500 Russet: 1182, wool or silk Saye: b. 1182 Serge: 1303 Shag: 1592; worsted or silk nap Stammel: 1526 tamine: ca. 1550 Tawney: 1366 There's more-- but I wonder if the piece of mock velvet in the V&A you saw was mockado? BTW, I'm quoting from CA #38, Costume Studies I, Articles from Seams Like Old Times, written by Linda Reams Fox and Joyce Cottrell. Karen Jolley-Williams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 01:03:09 -0500 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Norman Gown ??? Having been in the SCA for a number of years now, I pretty much know how to make your basic Norman gown, complete with drapey sleeves, and gores on the side if I feel particularly competent. So when I sat down to make an "as-accurate-as-possible" gown, I thought I had a pretty good idea of what I was doing. And then I started thinking about the questions I needed to have answered. Things got scary real fast! About the Fabric: - - The fabric I have is a medium brown wool-blend. I don't know what the other materials are, or in what proportions they appear. It is so finely woven that I can see my hand through it if it is held up to the light. It looks very close to what I have seen of hand-woven fabrics. Is this an appropriate fabric for the overdress? - - Recently, I've come across several references to fabric (particularly wools) being "felted." But surely all fabric wasn't felted, was it? - - In general, I pre-wash all my fabrics in hot water, and dry them on the hottest setting, figuring that if I don't ruin them by this treatment, they'll be OK for future mistakes. But I _really_ don't want to ruin this fabric. Should I: A) plan on drycleaning; B) try hot-washing a small square of it to see how it does; or C) plan on spot cleaning and airing it? About the Dress Itself: - - I've heard that period looms were rather narrow (about 30-40"). Should I cut my 60" fabric into strips for my dress? This would presumably give me one strip for the center of the dress, and then one strip for each arm, and a gore on each side. Does this sound like the proper way to "build" it? - - What treatment is used on hems? Should I double-roll it and double-stitch it like I do on most of my garb, or is this too blatantly non-period? What about a facing for the neck? Or should I turn it under and hem it, too? If I plan to embroider the edges, should I try to hide the back side of the stitching that might be visible if I make large "drapey" sleeves? Does this mean I need facings for the sleeves, too? And the Underdress: - - Is linen a good material for the underdress? - - Should the skirt be as full as the skirt of the overdress. That is, do I need to put gores in it as well? - - I know that the sleeves of the underdress were usually tight-fitting, and often extended beyond the fingertips. When the dress was worn, the sleeves were wrinkled up to rest at wrist level (Did that make sense?). In practice, I've found it difficult to make a sleeve that fit tightly enough in all the right places, and yet still gave me free movement at the elbow. Any suggestions? Also, I recently came across a reference to women sewing the sleeves at the wrist once they put them on to give a tighter fit. However, my source for this is a fiction book, and I'd like to have more evidence for or against. About the Embroidery: - - (Am I a glutton for punishment, or what!?) I'd like to embroider the edges of the dress, but the fabric is a somewhat open weave, and I don't know how well it will take the stitches. Several people have suggested putting the embroidery on linen bands, and then attaching these to the dress. I really don't like the idea of using a fairly tightly woven fabric to trim a loosely woven fabric. Am I just falling victim to my modern sensibilities? Or does perhaps the embroidery cover the entire band, so that the fabric doesn't show at all? - - Looking at the fabric, it strikes me as appropriate for a "workday" dress. That is, not fancy "court" garb. Would embroidery even be appropriate for this? I'm thinking of a fairly standard pattern I have seen on several period garments, with a large circle then two smaller ones stacked on top of each other, repeating (Hmm... not very clear, is it). - - What should I use for the thread? Wool yarn? DMC floss? Silk floss? What ply? What colors were commonly used? Many thanks in advance to all good gentles who took the time to wade through this post. I appreciate all your input! - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #257 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!