From ???@??? Wed Jul 31 09:43:11 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09248 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:31:43 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07390; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:23:43 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <8lzcgg_00iWVE9aV00@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:22:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 1 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 1 Today's Topics: H-costume is back; various news Betty Williams Costume Books Questions: Color Re: H-costume is back Re: Questions: Color Re: H-costume is back! Re: H-costume is back! colored wedding gowns Re: H-costume is back! Re: H-costume is back! Re: Questions: Color Questions: Details of gents' costume Foreign books... Re: Digest version? Re: H-costume is back! welcome back Wearing of Caps Re: Costume Books corsets Welcome back! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:07:01 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Frances Grimble Subject: H-costume is back; various news Thanks, Gretchen and Suzanne! I've been feeling deprived. I've been buying and mail ordering a lot of costume books recently, so should have some book news soon. I like to at least look at books before mentioning them. Jane Hunnisett's _Period Costume for Stage and Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress Medieval-1500_ is finally out. It was published by Players Press in 1996. I haven't had time to read it in-depth, let alone use it. But it appears to differ somewhat from Hunnisett's earlier books. Those consist mostly of patterns, with several style alternatives for each. Although this book contains some patterns, Hunnisett feels the styles are better draped. The focus is more "Here's a redrawing and a description of a period illustration (often a familiar one), plus some general construction information. You figure out how to make the exact style you want." Other than that, my husband and I set up a web site for vintage and historic dance. The URL is http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:03:41 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume Subject: Betty Williams People pass through my life (and there have been a number of them) who have, by their very presence, altered the course of the river. Betty was one of those, in a big way. I am sure that in the costume world she touched untold lives with her openness and generosity. Betty always pushed me to try harder, do a little bit more, take an extra step towards the goal of perfection. And no matter how things turned out she was full of praise. I first came in contact with Betty when I had the book business and she called to order from my catalogue (had to be the mid-70s). Here was this pushy, crazy southern lady trying to tell me my prices were too low (she never did win that one) and that I had to carry more of X Y & Z. It was fun. So finally I met her (the Studio was still on 14th St). She became the N.Y. office for THE TEXTILE BOOKLIST, she helped me through the pangs and struggles of publishing my first books, I started living in the Studio when I went to N.Y., and we became fast friends. When I started RAGS she said that of course she would review for it. Everything was that way. Betty was always there with her knowledge and energy pushing me forward. Through all this she had terrible bouts with cancer, masses of chemo, had to wear wigs (and thought no one knew) and was generally very sick. But she still worked, and shared her knowledge, and brought people together. This Spring (97) will see an exhibit at FIT on pattern companies which she was going to curate. Towards the end, rather than sit and feel sorry for herself, she put all her energy into seeing that the exhibit would happen, Betty is missed, and I will always be grateful for her friendship. R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:38:43 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, vintage@brownvm.brown.edu From: Frances Grimble Subject: Costume Books I recently bought three foreign-language, highly illustrated costume books that English-only speakers might enjoy for the illustrations. _Spitze: Luxus Zwischen Tradition und Avantgarde_, in German with essays by a number of contributors, published by the Museum fur Kunst und Kulturgeschichte. This book focuses on lace and lace clothing from around the turn of the 20th century. Many of the lace designs are Art Nouveau and/or gorgeous. Most of the illustrations are black-and white photos, but there are a few color ones. At the end there are a few photos of radical modern lace clothing--dressess that look like lampshades and suchlike--that I don't much care for. But these are not a large part of the book. _Velours_, by Anne Kraatz, a French book published by Adam Biro. A big, totally four-color book with pictures of velvet textiles, clothing, and portraits showing them, mostly Renaissance through 19th century. _Le Velours_, edited by Claude Fauque and published in 1994 by Syros. A similar but smaller book, with a different selection of pictures, also French. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 23:45:57 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Questions: Color Cc: 0006744320@mcimail.com It's great the list is back. I have been researching alot and have some colors to report (which are unusual) and some questions. Get ready for some chuckles. Reported in "Modes and Manners" during Louis XVI (Late Georgian) reign the following color names were popular in Paris for yellowish-green: NYMPH'S THIGH, SEWERAGE, STREET MUCK, LONDON FOG, NUN'S BELLY, CAMELITE PAUNCH, POISONED APE, DYING APE, MERRY WIDOW, UNHAPPY FRIEND, FOP'S ENTRAILS, SICK SPANIARD, CONSTIPATION AND SMALLPOX. Question 1: What is a camelite paunch and a fop's entrails??? Now we know the DEAD SPANIARD during the Elizabethan period came back to life and is now SICK. Question2: I am presently working my internship at the Valentine Museum. Someone donated an ICE BLUE wedding gown dated 1945. The donor said it was popular after WW2 for brides to wear pastel wedding dresses. Can anyone confirm this? If so, what other colors were there? CONFIRMATION: Blue being used during the Renaissance and Elizabethan has been confirmed two more times (four total) in sources as being used in England mainly by servants. This means it was pretty common knowledge. Blue was very popular in France at that time. PROGRESS: My color name book has more than doubled. It has over 500 names, usage, and definitions. I have 10 more books to download in my database. Check out the additions to my web page. It now includes period movie picture links.If you know of anymore let me know. http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:15:10 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume is back! In a message dated 96-07-29 19:16:29 EDT, you write: >After a loooonng hiatus, h-costume is back! and I respond: Oh, thank goodness! Jo Anne ------------------------------ From: Kathri@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 03:29:14 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Questions: Color Thanks for the laughs! And the information, of course. In a message dated 96-07-30 00:09:52 EDT, you write: <> Could this be Carmelite instead of camelite? A Carmelite was a mendicant friar (or a nun) who wore a white habit; they were called White Friars. They existed during this time. (Maybe a camelite was a friar who wore camel hair :) ) A paunch is a large, protruding belly. (Aquired by successful mendicants, one assumes.) A fop is 'a man who is excessively vain and concerned about his dress, appearance, and manners' says my Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2nd ed.). It lists as synonyms 'dandy, coxcomb, popinjay, peacock, swell, dude' . (Pick your historical period.) Entrails are guts. Romans thought they could tell the future by examining animals entrails. I think I'd rather go in the opposite direction by examining historical costumes. Kathri kathri@aol.com << Question2: I am presently working my internship at the Valentine Museum. Someone donated an ICE BLUE wedding gown dated 1945. The donor said it was popular after WW2 for brides to wear pastel wedding dresses. Can anyone confirm this? If so, what other colors were there? >> A friend of mine just found her mother's wedding gown from this period - I'm not sure of the exact year. It is 'pale pink', and has tulle netting. Her mother told her that brides 'wore colors then'. I think this was for a formal wedding in Corpus Christ, Texas. Kathri kathri@aol.com ------------------------------ From: MsSheep@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:19:13 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume is back! Thank you thank you thank you. So nice to see the list again - ! Dianne in Indy mssheep@aol.com ------------------------------ From: BEARLEE1@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:08:14 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume is back! Hello, So very glad... I'm not much of a "contributor" at present, but have sure missed the list and hearing about you all. But, most of all, I think we should all that Gretchen. It is no easy job to maintain manually. It is a great gift to us all... Three cheers! Love Carole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:09:40 -0500 (EST) From: "The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold." Subject: colored wedding gowns To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I have heard two different traditions for colored wedding gowns. One, is for brides that already have children. Pale blue for mothers of boys, plae pink for mothers of girls. The other is jsut for blue gowns. Blue supposedly represents loyalty, which is the most desired trait in a bride, and so wedding gowns were often blue. I don't know where these started or when, but I did see one in action. My aunt married in pale blue her second time around, when she already had a son. Anne gonnella@stsci.edu ------------------------------ From: Ngelina@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:42:54 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume is back! I missed you all, too! (Addiction is a terrible thing...) What has everyone been doing during the Great Hiatus? Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:19:25 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: bdominey@mindspring.com (Barbara Dominey) Subject: Re: H-costume is back! >Greetings one and all!!! > >After a loooonng hiatus, h-costume is back! Thank you, Gretchen! Though I've been a very quiet member of the list, I've missed it to. Barbara Barbara Dominey Lilburn, GA bdominey@mindspring.com Maestra Irina degli Schiavoni Barony of Bryn Madoc, Meridies ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Va, ch'i' son forte e ardito." ++++"Lead on, I am strong and confident" Dante Alighieri, Inferno Canto XXIV, l.60 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:41:54 GMT From: dickie@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) To: Kathri@aol.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Questions: Color In message <960730032913_588047940@emout10.mail.aol.com> Kathri@aol.com writes: > Thanks for the laughs! And the information, of course. > > In a message dated 96-07-30 00:09:52 EDT, you write: > < What is a camelite paunch and a fop's entrails??? > >> > Could this be Carmelite instead of camelite? A Carmelite was a mendicant > friar (or a nun) who wore a white habit; they were called White Friars. > They existed during this time. (Maybe a camelite was a friar who wore camel > hair :) ) Or whose paunch had developed on his back? > A fop is 'a man who is excessively vain and concerned about his dress, > > Entrails are guts. Romans thought they could tell the future by examining > animals entrails. I think I'd rather go in the opposite direction by > examining historical costumes. It does seem most apt, though. I'm sure that, if I had to take the auspices by examining a fop's entrails, I too would be yellowish-green in complexion! o-) < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:46:19 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Questions: Details of gents' costume Greetings! Now that the list is back (hurray!) I might be able to find the answers to some points that have recently been vexing me. I've been wondering when certain details of gents' clothing were introduced: 1) "French" or "turn-back" cuffs on shirt sleeves 2) Interfacing down the front placket, again on gents' shirts 3) Striped silesia, as sleeve lining for coats and as waistband lining and "curtains" in trousers. (The "curtains" were a sort of partial lining across the back, extending some 6 inches down the back seam to about 3 inches at the side seam) < Paul > ------------------------------ From: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreign books... To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu How lovely to see this again! Thanks, Gretchen, for taking this on. Recently, on another of my mailing lists, someone posted information on what sounds like a wonderful museum publication. Unfortunately, it comes from a museum in Madrid. Does anyone know of any importer that deals with these kinds of books? Here, in the San Francisco bay area, we can generally get catalogs from the UK and some times from France (thank you Moe's Books!); however, books from the rest of the world are a rare find. BTW, does anyone know of a US contact for Parks Canada? I've read some reviews on their patterns and phamplets that have me curious. 'Muzzleloader' recently reviewed a work they put out on men's 18th century coats that I would love to see. Looking forward to more h-costume! What a great surprise to find it back in my email again! Catherine Keegan syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:29:26 -0500 From: babs@funhouse.com (Babs Woods) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Digest version? First off, I'm glad we're back. I mostly lurked in h-costume's former incarnation. When the digest can be set up I'd also like to start getting the list in that form. Hi everyone! For anyone who's interested: Obligatory URL mention (Bra and Underwire FAQs can be downloaded from here): http://www.funhouse.com/babs/FAQ.html Thanks Gretchen! -babs "Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair." - hadley@ics.uci.edu (Ted Hadley) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:15:20 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: jhenry@astron.Berkeley.EDU (janet henry) Subject: Re: H-costume is back! I just want to add my thank you for taking on the list - I missed the wonderful information I was receiving. Janet ******************************************************* Janet Henry jhenry@astron.berkeley.edu "The real threats to our creative process are in thinking we don't know, when we do; that we can't, when we can; that we're nothing, when we're all." Karin Carrington ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 1996 08:47:34 -0800 From: "Karen Lovejoy" Subject: welcome back To: "H-Costume" I'm delighted to see h-costume back, I have really missed lurking back in the shadows reading all those fascinating tidbits. You made my whole day. ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Wearing of Caps Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:46:27 -0700 Hi there, I'm so glad the list is back! I've been missing my daily fix. To help start the ball rolling, I have a question to ask. In the Regency, when would a married woman put on a cap? At a certain age? At marriage? Or the birth of the first child? I've either heard of documentation for later (1860's) or in fiction. Does anyone have any quotes and/or descriptions ofthe caps? Thanks and welcome back, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:50:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Costume Books To: Frances Grimble cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Fran, Could you post ISBN #s for these books? Thanks. I just came across a new interesting book: "Silk", by Jacques Anquetil, Published by Flammarion, 1996, ISBN #2-08013-616-X (Translated from the original French edition). (Retail $60.00) Flammarion Suite 1406 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10003 The book covers the origins of silk weaving, silk weaving in Europe, Renaissance through 19th Century, with gorgeous photos of silk yardage and costumes. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Frances Grimble wrote: > I recently bought three foreign-language, highly illustrated costume books > that English-only speakers might enjoy for the illustrations. > > _Spitze: Luxus Zwischen Tradition und Avantgarde_, in German with essays by > a number of contributors, published by the Museum fur Kunst und > Kulturgeschichte. This book focuses on lace and lace clothing from around > the turn of the 20th century. Many of the lace designs are Art Nouveau > and/or gorgeous. Most of the illustrations are black-and white photos, but > there are a few color ones. At the end there are a few photos of radical > modern lace clothing--dressess that look like lampshades and suchlike--that > I don't much care for. But these are not a large part of the book. > > _Velours_, by Anne Kraatz, a French book published by Adam Biro. A big, > totally four-color book with pictures of velvet textiles, clothing, and > portraits showing them, mostly Renaissance through 19th century. > > _Le Velours_, edited by Claude Fauque and published in 1994 by Syros. A > similar but smaller book, with a different selection of pictures, also French. > > Fran Grimble > ------------------------------ From: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:53 -0700 (PDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, *@ncal.kaiperm.org Does anyone know of anyone who imports museum catalogs from countries other than the UK? The following review has piqued my interest and I would love to have a copy of this. Someone I know has recently returned from Spain with a copy of this book (which I've only heard wonderful things about but have not yet seen). Catherine Keegan syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org ======================================================================== MUSEO DE TELAS MEDIEVALES : MONASTERIO DE SANTA MARIA LA REAL DE HUELGAS by Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid : Editorial Patrimonio Nacional, 1988 ISBN: 84-7120-127-5 Library of Congress Call no.: NK8862.M87 1988 For the costuming people into the 13th Century is book is a must see. Alas the book is in Spanish and I have no Spanish but it is full of color photographs of real 13th century costumes taken from the tombs of royality of Spain. Included are men's tunics and sideless surcoats, a woman's cotehardie, and sideless surcoat, a coif, a hat, samples of material and a Islamic banner. Some of the material included stripes, what looks like polka dots and stars. Also included was armorial clothing which was a tunic covered in rows of the arms of Castile and Leon, very small, about 12 down and 6 across. ------------------------------ From: STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM To: "h-costume(a)andrew.cmu.edu" Subject: corsets Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:06:56 -0400 Hi, I'm new to this list, so I hope I haven't missed any threads. I've checked a few sources regarding corsets, and they're conflicting. Does anyone know when they were first used in Europe. I'm working on a Medieval ensemble, but I need to know what kind of underpinnings were used besides the chemise. One source was wonderful as far as pictures and descriptions of the overdresses, embroidery, patterns, menswear, etc. but nothing about undergarments. A source over the web conflicted itself, saying that corsets didn't show up until the 15th century, and then one of its links said that they were used as far back as 1000 B.C.E by the Minoans. Any info here? STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM ------------------------------ From: mgriggs@shepards.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 10:11:12 MDT Subject: Welcome Back! To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: Just a quick update. I put the information on partlets, chemises, and hats to good use and they came out beautifully! My first Elizabethan from underpinnings to beaded underskirt and sleeves and velvet overskirt and bodice and a beaded pill box style hat was a huge success! The entire outfit received rave reviews. Thanks to everyone who helped with working out the pattern details. It was a marvelous learning experience. Lyssa --------------------------------------------------------- Maggie Griggs or Lady Leofsige O Caoimh known as Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 1 ************************************