From ???@??? Fri Sep 06 17:25:16 1996 Received: from PO6.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA14434 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:00:35 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po6.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07356; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:48:29 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 26 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Status: O H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 26 Today's Topics: Small World Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals Piecework Magazine Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 22 Re: Flags on-line fashion books SF Vintage Expo Re: end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals Re: end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals Fwd: Habit Cloth Vintage Clothing fire damage Miser's Purse Re: Pennyroyal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:36:06 BST To: mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu.au Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Small World From: Giulia de Cesare Hi, You don't know me, but I was just intrigued by your address. I lived in Tassie for 30 years, went to the University of Tasmania (BA Hons, in psychology, 1979, Dip Ed a few years later) and had to move to the UK to discover other people interested in historical costume. Are you a lone voice out there or are there others of you? And if so, where were you all when I was there? I'm coming back for a week or two in January to get married. Am hoping to make a wedding dress based on Victorian 1880's and am hoping it won't be too hot. Your curiously, Giulia De Cesare ------------------------------ From: Van Opstal Walter To: "'h-costume'" Subject: Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 09:32:00 CDT Hello Marc, I can't find the URL you mentioned on your server. Are the pages there yet? >The latest version of this text is now in place and available at >"http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson". >Marc Carlson >(Still working on Medieval Hats...) I'd really like to have a look. Walter Van Opstal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:18:24 -0700 From: lindam@kindra-78.Eng.Sun.COM (Linda McAllister) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals [name deleted] wrote: > > I am sure that this is what Hitler would have ultimately done with all of > the Jewish art/artifacts, etc. that he had collected and sent to Prague. If he > had won he would have destroyed them along with all the Jewish peoplehe > could get his hands on. In time-honored Usenet tradition (yes, I know this list is not the same thing), bringing Hitler into a discussion signifies that that thread is at an end and no further rational discourse can be expected. linda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:33:43 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: rchs@crisny.org (Lorraine E. Weiss) Subject: Piecework Magazine Piecework Magazine has a homepage: http://www.needlearts.com/magazines_and_books/piecework/index.htm Can't remember if it has a full index too. Lorraine E. Weiss, Education Director Rensselaer County Historical Society, Troy, NY (rchs@crisny.org) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:58:54 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: willow@recreating-history.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 22 >From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) >Subject: preserving the past > >As an academic librarian, I'm also trained in the mindset of >conservation and preservation. I read an article recently about the >expansion of the Mummy Room in the Cairo Museum. It mentioned >Tutankamen's mummy is not on display because it was damaged when Howard >Carter ripped it to get at the gold jewelry. So sad, isn't it. To have >survived intact until the 1920s only to be damaged by someone who dearly >loved the very objects he was damaging. While I'm sure this is approaching off topic, I have to interject my $.02 here. I've been studying "things Egyptian" since I was about 8 years old, and begged my mom to go to the Tutankhamun exhibit as a girl when it came to San Francisco. To the best of my knowledge, Tut's mummy has always been in poor condition due to what I've heard called a "botched mummification job" (It's NOT pretty! Have you seen what's left of the old boy?) and has never been on public display in any museum. It was replaced back within the tomb inside the third inner coffin under plexi in a temp. controlled environment. I somehow can't imagine Carter "ripping" the body of someone he worked all those years to find just to get at some trinkets quicker. I have never heard of this "fact" until reading the above quote. So, to try and bring it back to the subject of the list (and save myself in the process! 8-) ), PLEASE try and be sure of your "facts" before reporting them! I liken the clothing debate to something I'm more familiar with collecting - quilts, also historic textiles. When I purchase an old quilt, I'm doing it because I like the piece, not because I want to "save it from someone who could do terrible things to it". I don't have that kind of money. But I have also purchased squares that were cut from larger antique quilts, presumably because the rest of it was in such poor condition that it was unsalable. I also cringe when I see magazines like "Country Living" suggest that it's a neato decorating idea to use quilts as tablecloths. I would never use them like that in a million years, but I can't very well go about as the quilt police and berate everyone I see doing it. I may politely go to a shop keeper that has one fading away in a store window display, or using one as a table cover at a craft show where one edge is trailing on the ground and getting stepped on (Seen it! Even tried to buy it to save it, but it was the crafter's husband's grandmother's, and he wouldn't part with it... go figure). But I can only go so far with it, and while I'm also painfully aware of the destruction of valuable historic embroideries so that there are almost no medieval examples left, I know that things will be used and worn and sometimes be damaged - it's human nature that we USE the things we create for that purpose (and re-use things for other purposes, of course... the Bayoux tapestry was almost used as a wagon cover at one point...) Sometimes, when the damage is done, it's best to learn from it, make repairs, put that piece away in proper storage, and move on. You can bet that the gal who ruined her great-grandmother's gown at the Dickens Faire will never, ever wear another piece of historic clothing again... And ask me sometimes about dead, stinky horses. It's quite a story. I can tell the difference - this topic may be on its last legs, but it's not time for Kate Smith just yet. ;> >From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) >Subject: Re: 17th c "doublet" jacket > >The Folk Wear Bolivian Milkmaid jacket is a good pattern for a 17th >century woman's jacket. If you want more of a doublet effect, make the >sleeves detachable (put round buttonholes at the top of the sleeve and >around the jacket armhole so sleeves can be laced on or off as desired) >and lengthen the jacket an inch or two. >>I impulsively bought 5 1/2 yards of hunter green jaquard fabric on >>sale yesterday. The fabric is 60" wide and I hope to get a skirt and >>17th c doublet "jacket" out of it as a Christmas dress and for >>RenFaire next year. AND another thing!! (Can't shut me up just yet...) If you were doing detachable sleeves, wouldn't you use ties instead of buttons? And, unfortunately, green is an extremely difficult color to get with period dyes (so my dyer friends tell me), so it wouldn't be a period outfit, if you're interested in being painfully authentic (but I absolutely love hunter green, so I bend the rules myself here... just thought you should know... after the fact... sorry!) 8-} Okay, I'm done. 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:42:17 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: Flags To: STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM cc: "h-costume(a)andrew.cmu.edu" > > I must agree that letting a flag decay to tatters (or be displayed 24 > hours a day, seven days a week, in all types of inclement weather, > becoming tattered) is a worse form of "desecration" than the few times > flags have been burned for political reasons. In fact, the only proper > disposal of a worn out American flag is through burning, after which the > ashes must be buried. > An even sadder thing about flags, is that they cut the budget for restoring the Betsy Ross flag, and that is probably one of the more important pieces of fabric that our(US) country owns. Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:16:45 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: thomas gladysz Subject: on-line fashion books Howdy, I'm the costume history book buyer for a large independent bookstore in San Francisco. I'm also the webmistress there. I've been working like crazy, and I've put up most of our Costume history section on-line. Our URL is; www.bookstore.com To skip directly to the costuming section, go to : www.bookstore.com/fash1.html Like most costume related stuff, it is a labor of love. Hope y'all like it. Christy Pascoe A Clean Well -Lighted Place for Books,Webmistress admin@bookstore.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:16:41 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: thomas gladysz Subject: SF Vintage Expo Hey All, I hope this won't be considered off-list.... The San Francisco Vintage Fashion Expo will be From Saturday Sept. 21 to Sunday Sept.22nd. From 10am to 5pm. Admission $6.00. Christy Pascoe. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:59:31 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Mark Dancer Subject: Re: end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals >In time-honored Usenet tradition (yes, I know this list is not the same thing), >bringing Hitler into a discussion signifies that that thread is at an end >and no further rational discourse can be expected. > >linda Amen to that. This thread was getting a wee bit academic and at times boring. Just be thankful that some of you have access to clothing outlets that are just vintage clothing. Some of us have to go searching through second-hand shops amongst all the modern clothing and pray to God that it's in good condition. Sue Walker Mark Dancer & NetMark Consultancies Pty. Ltd. Sue Walker. mdancer@thehub.com.au These comments and questions are solely my doing. My company, colleagues, family, neighbors, gender, sex, race, creed, national origin, medieval reenactment group... bear no responsibility for the accuracy thereof. Further, I apologize in advance and retract any part of this email that in any way offends anyone, anyone's sensibilities, ancestors, cars, favorite ice cream, or points of view. This communique may add to your store of knowledge. It may not. Proceed at your own risk. (Slightly modified from an original by Ed Long). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:22:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Mark Dancer cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: end of thread: was vintage clothes and morals 2nd hand shops? Man, try garage sales or Goodswill as-is bins. Talk about the thrill of the hunt! I love telling people that the gorgeous, hand made turn on the century shirt-waist I have was found on a rack of Goodswill blouses. Or the black sealskin stole and muff (Hudsons Bay Fur Trading Co.) scored at a Eugene garage sale. God, it's fun. I guess my mother taught me well. So, off I go! Turn loose the hounds!! Excuse me, I have to go now. I have my tongue caught in my cheek. I hate it when that happens! Grin, Chris (the Cyborg) On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Mark Dancer wrote: > >In time-honored Usenet tradition (yes, I know this list is not the same thing ), > >bringing Hitler into a discussion signifies that that thread is at an end > >and no further rational discourse can be expected. > > > >linda > > Amen to that. This thread was getting a wee bit academic and at times > boring. Just be thankful that some of you have access to clothing outlets > that are just vintage clothing. Some of us have to go searching through > second-hand shops amongst all the modern clothing and pray to God that it's > in good condition. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:23:03 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Fwd: Habit Cloth To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu This request was posted on CW-Reenactors list, but this list is more likely to supply him with an answer. Please reply directly to him as he is not on h-costume (yet?) Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to render him. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ---- Begin Forwarded Message To: CW-REENACTORS@world.std.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 17:01 CDT From: tiger1@accesscom.net (John Lambert) Subject: Habit Cloth Greetings: He got a long written description and instructions on how to make a particular nun's habit, and it calls for "habit cloth". Any one know what is habit cloth? Thanks, ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:52:52 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Vintage Clothing Joan Broneske said >Knowing what I do now, I could kick myself in the a-- for what I did >with them. I am now going to put them away in acid-free boxes to >prevent any further deterioration, after first making patterns from >them. Although I realize what other people mean when they say that it >is an individual's business what they do with their own stuff, I still >think it is a shame to take and wear, alter, or otherwise deface vintage >clothing. I don't care if it is a mass-produced 1910 blouse. I don't collect. I don't collect anything so I don't have any ax to grind. Instead I've got a question. At what point do "old clothes" become collector's items become museum pieces? Do I stop wearing that 10 year old dress right now? Or last year's pair of pants? To some extent the original messages have been tempered with reason in this discussion. But I still think there are some questions. Joan doesn't say just how long ago she was that teenager who had been given some old clothes to "play" in. Or how old those clothes were when she was given them. At some point in our lives we will all find ourselves face to face with something with an astronomical price tag attached to it that is exactly like something we once owned and threw away because it was worn out, out of fashion and we just didn't want it anymore. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.co ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:02:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Dickson To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: Historical Costume Mailing List , f-costume@world.std.com Subject: fire damage Can anyone suggest ways of removing fire/smoke damage from both natural and man made fabrics, such as smoke smell, grey streaks? ------------------------------ From: Joan Broneske To: "'h-costume'" Subject: Miser's Purse Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:31:17 -0700 This may be slightly off topic, but does anyone have instructions on how to either knit, crochet or sew a Miser's purse? Thanks, Joan Broneske unicorn@calweb.com www.calweb.com/~unicorn/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:54:41 +0000 From: Alan Braggins To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Pennyroyal > > >>From what I remember of my (brief) explorations in herbal pharmacology, > >pennyroyal oil was actually used in *very* small doses as an abortive agent. > >Even a very slight overdose can be toxic enough to be fatal. > > > >In short, do be extremely careful in handling pennyroyal. > > Yes, one can drink it as a tea made from the leaves as an > abortive agent. It can also be taken orally in the oil form for the same > purpose. It will be most effective VERY early on, such as within one > week of the missed period. I'll give the dosage I've heard just so > people don't decide to experiment with it and injure themselves. (It can > cause death or simply destroy kidney function with misuse.) Three drops, > two times a day, for three days. I have a vague memory of reading a reproduction herbal with a modern warning adding saying that for (almost?) all traditional herbal abortifacients, a dose which will reliably induce abortion (if there is one) will have a serious risk of injuring or killing the mother. I'll try and find a cite to back this up. ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 26 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Sep 06 17:25:23 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20767 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:34:46 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18790; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:21:58 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs30.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:19:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 27 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Status: O H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 27 Today's Topics: Sept. 1 Museum fair -- Thanks to everyone Workwoman's Guide? Re: fire damage RE: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Pennyroyal Textile cleaning Re: fire damage Irish petticoats, etc. Green Dye Misers purse Re:Green Dye Questions to Costume Authors Re: Habit Cloth Re: do you have ... Orvus Paste for cleaning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 15:30:12 +0200 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) Subject: Sept. 1 Museum fair -- Thanks to everyone Yesterday we had the biennial "Museumsfest" (museum fair) of the local history museum at my home district (Reinickendorf, Berlin, Germany). I wore a Gruenderzeit (Victorian) dress I had made after an 1880 example, taught several people tatting and was the most-photographed person of the fair, I guess. I worked the week before on it almost without getting any sleep, but it was worth it. Thanks everybody on this list that helped me, by comments, recommendations, even just through their interesting discussions! I first subscribed in May this year with zero knowledge on historical costuming, and I think I have advanced a lot. And thanks so much more to Gretchen Beck for taking the trouble and running this list by hand. -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 15:31:53 +0200 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) Subject: Workwoman's Guide? Often people on this list refer to a book called the "Workwoman's Guide". Can anyone send me its precise title, and Dover Publications No.? I thought it was a Dover book. Thank you. -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:50:42 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: fire damage I've been told (by a sorrowful weaver who'd had a fire and had to cut the current project off her loom) that it can't be done: the smoke literally _does_ "damage" the fiber and even if you could make it look better, it would be considerably weakened, possibly to the distintegration stage. If I've been misinformed, someone please tell me (and I'll tell her ...) Jo Anne ------------------------------ From: "Wichmann, David" To: Gretchen M Beck Subject: RE: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:50:00 -0700 >a Vietnamese immigrant to the U.S. wears blue jeans, not her native dress. Maybe where you live, but out here in the SF Bay area, they would be just as likely to maintain their cultural dress. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 1996 12:42:04 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Pennyroyal To: "costume" Last year I grew pennyroyal mint in my shady garden, and it did quite well until one day nearly all the leaves disappeared. This happened two more times, and the plant died before summer was over. I've grown pennyroyal before, but when I had one cat the plant did not have this damage. On the other hand, my new cat had no fleas last summer. I was pretty amused by this, as the reason I was growing the pennyroyal was because I was going to test the insect repellent reputation which I had read about by strewing the herb inside on the floors behind and under furniture. As an experiment one day when the plant was in good shape, I chewed a couple of leaves. It didn't taste that different from the spearmint. But mindful of what I had read in the herbal books I did not use the pennyroyal in a tea or in food. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 1996 12:49:21 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Textile cleaning To: "costume" I've just been introduced to a washing paste called Orvus, by a friend who is a spinner and weaver of wool, and I wanted to let you know about it. Orvus is known as a an old-fashioned horse shampoo, which is how I described it at the store when I bought it. If you buy the stuff at a textile-related shop, you can buy small quantities, but at a much greater price. Anyway, I used a tiny amount for washing a silk crepe veil the other day in cool water, and it worked like a charm. Orvus is Proctor and Gamble's brand name for sodium laurel sulfate (I hope I've spelled that right), and it is a wetting agent that suds up nicely. I'm planning to wash a fleece with it this weekend. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) email: Carole_Newson-Smith@net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:10:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 Subject: Re: fire damage To: Julie Dickson Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, Historical Costume Mailing List , +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cm u.edu, f-costume@world.std.com i DRY Claening does the best. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- return address: bednarekd@picard.med.ge.com home phone: 414-363-7082 work phone: 414-521-6962 GE. MED. MR Manufacturing 2nd Shift ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Julie Dickson wrote: > Can anyone suggest ways of removing fire/smoke damage from both natural > and man made fabrics, such as smoke smell, grey streaks? > ------------------------------ From: dodom@fogelson.csf.edu (Odom Cheryl TEMPORARY) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Irish petticoats, etc. Date: 03 Sep 96 06:06:38 GMT We are mounting a production of "Playboy of the Western World" and would like some more information regarding the traditional Irish folk costume in County Mayo at the Turn of the Century. How is the red flannel petticoat worn? By itself or under something else or both. How is it constructed? Does it have a bottom ruffle? How varied are the shawls? Woven? Knitted? How full is the blouse? If anyone has mounted this production or is familiar with Irish folk costume, we would appreciate the information. Thanks Cheryl Odom, Faculty Costume Designer, College of Santa Fe dodom@fogelson.csf.ed ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 1996 17:54:11 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Green Dye To: "costume" Mail*Link(r) SMTP Green Dye Willow wrote: :AND another thing!! (Can't shut me up just yet...) If you were doing :detachable sleeves, wouldn't you use ties instead of buttons? And, :unfortunately, green is an extremely difficult color to get with period :dyes (so my dyer friends tell me), so it wouldn't be a period outfit, if :you're interested in being painfully authentic (but I absolutely love :hunter green, so I bend the rules myself here... just thought you should :know... after the fact... sorry!) 8-} I've just gotten started learning about natural dyes by going to a couple of workshops in the last year. From what I have learned it appears that some of the deep rich shades would be difficult to achieve because it took a lot of dye, and dyeing was expensive. Most dyes available prior to the nineteenth century appear to have been from plants. Saffron gives an intense warm yellow, but was (and is) expensive. Cochineal, on the other hand, comes from a tropical bug that is very tiny, and produces a pinkish red to a deep wine color. The deepness of the color in many cases would depend on how much dye you could afford as well as what fiber you were trying to color. Wool takes up more color than silk if they are in the dyebath together. But I have found a list of colors that were available in fifteenth century Italy, and there were about 20 color names in the list. Green was often dyed by first dipping the fabric in a yellow bath, then in a blue. Green was possible, but I haven't found the term "hunter green" in my admittedly small research. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:14:42 PST Subject: Misers purse From: kilburn@juno.com (Kenneth L. Smith) Joan Broneske requested help finding a pattern for a misers purse: First, I have seen many, many patterns in Peterson's Ladies Magazine, Godey's, etc., but for a currently published book with one try Liz Paludan's Crochet: History & Technique published by Interweave Press, Inc. , 201 East Fourty Street, Loveland, Colorado, USA (1995) at $35.00. Ken in New York City ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:14:41 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re:Green Dye Back to my favorite subject: I am writing a book "Color Names Through the Centuries". To date my first documentation of HUNTER GREEN is in the Fin de Seicle Era, in 1896. If it is documented at any earlier times, please send let me know with documentation. I have documented green in almost every period from the 1100-1929. The name go around and around. Most used names are POPINJAY GREEN, VERT, GOOSETURD GREEN, and LINCOLN GREEN, and the list goes on and on. Check out the old h-costume archives (I do not who manitains it) and look in the May-June 1996 and review my posts on Color Names. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 A penny for your thoughts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:48:48 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Questions to Costume Authors These questions somewhat pertains to costume (remember I AM a student): I am taking a boring class, Product Development. I want to turn the class into something I can actually use. Most of you know that I am writing my color names book. So, my product I am developing is a costume book. Since I know nothing of the publishing aspect of the costume industry, I want to ask the authorites (you) some questions. I know you authors are out there lurking somewhere! 1. Is there a trade association for costume publications (if one exists) and what are its publications? 2. I need to know the names of two periodicals/magazines that cover lists of costume books? 3. Are there any other sources that can be relavent to costume publications? 4. A hard question, what is the Standard Industrial Classification (SIC) code number for costume publications/author? Hint: Authors it may be on a tax form, just a guess. Needing to know quick, since I haven't found a thing in my library. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 A penny for your thoughts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:31:28 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: claning@igc.apc.org (Chris Laning) Subject: Re: Habit Cloth Glenna Jo Christen forwarded a message: > >---- Begin Forwarded Message >To: CW-REENACTORS@world.std.com >Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 17:01 CDT >From: tiger1@accesscom.net (John Lambert) >Subject: Habit Cloth > >Greetings: > He got a long written description and instructions on how to make a >particular nun's habit, and it calls for "habit cloth". Any one know >what is habit cloth? This may have been a commonly known name for a particular type of cloth at one time, though I (who am not a clothing historian by any means) haven't heard it used that way. Many types of cloth have names or nicknames, either because of their real histories or uses, or because someone wanted to make them sound romantic and desireable. Or because the manufacturer hired a marketing consultant . . .(Remember "kettle cloth"? I wonder what future clothing historians will make of *that* one.) Or, the writer of the instructions may just have said "habit cloth" as shorthand for "the cloth we make habits out of." (As opposed, to, say, "lining cloth" or "veiling.") If the instructions were written for members of the community of nuns, everyone would have known what the stuff was, anyway, by personal experience. Having said all that, I'd hazard a guess that it was likely to be some sort of wool twill. That seems to be a common material for traditional habits: sturdy, warm, multi-seasonal, and fairly long wearing. I'd really like to see a copy of the description/instructions, by the way. I ran into a few "monastic re-enactors" not long ago who have been looking high and low for authentic patterns. Some religious communities are very hesitant to share their patterns, or are even forbidden by their rules to do so. (I suppose because there are fears that "habits" will be put to sacrilegious uses by outsiders, which I can sympathize with, even though I think it's actually rather unlikely.) Side note regarding wool habits: I heard a story of a newcomer to a religious community who was solemnly told by one older nun, "Our habit is very penitential. In summer it's hot, and in winter it's drafty." The novice took this very much to heart until she was told by another nun, "Actually, our habit is very practical. In winter it's thick and warm, and in summer it's loose and cool." Which only goes to show that it's all in one's point of view . . . ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:13:21 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: do you have ... I wondered if any of you good people might know where I could locate the following book for a friend of mine: >>Shoes & Paterns, Medieval finds from Excavations in London, Francis Grew & >>Margareth de Neergaard, London, Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1988, ISBN >>0-11-290443-2. Hardcover if possible, if not paperback is fine. He requires >>a price. Thanks. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering: Canada's Online Literary 'Zine Summer Issue now available! http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:28:18 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Orvus Paste for cleaning Orvus is available from Clotilde~s, 2 Sew Smart Way, B8031, Stevens Point, WI 54481-8031 in an 8 oz. plastic jar for $4.00 plus sh/hdg. I have used it for washing old quilts in my son~s swimming pool and it works well for that. It is advertised in her catalog as "a SAFE washing concentrate for silk fabrics, treasured needlework, and quilts alike. Contains no harmful phosphates. Biodegradable. Highly concentrated. Color and consistency may change from winter to summer." Their toll-free order line is 1-800-545-4002. I would like to know if anyone has ever used it for antique clothing and had success in removing rust stains. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 27 ************************************ From ???@??? Sat Sep 07 13:44:15 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02282 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:32:22 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18894; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:50:53 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0mA_YcC00iWWAAoA4C@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:43:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 28 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 28 Today's Topics: Re: Misers purse Re: smoke damage Shoe Book Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Edward R. Hamilton Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages Irish working class costume 1930s Orvus J. Arnold Smocks, Gypsy Costume, Sleeves and Stuff Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Another stupid typo Janet Arnold Re: Green Dye Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MDSDMB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:11:16 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Misers purse The correct address for Interweave Press is: Interweave Press 201 East Fourth Street Loveland CO 80537-5655 1-800-272-2193 ------------------------------ From: MDSDMB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:10:35 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: smoke damage Joanne and List, Here, for what it's worth, is my small knowledge on smoke damage. Smoke, by itself, is a mixture of gasses and partially burned solids. There is usually ash in it (the partially burned solids and solids that won't burn). Depending upon what has burned, the gasses/solids are chemically reactive (acid or base). When they land on things, and water is added (as is commonly the case in a fire), they make a chemical soup that attacks stuff. This is why most insurance claims in a fire are for "smoke damage". Immediate cleaning is the quickest, surest way to limit the damage. Sometimes it is enough (think of your re-enacting camp clothes. You come home smelling like a BBQ pit, once through the washer and all is well). The Museums at Stonybrook (Stonybrook, Long Island, NY) had a horrible experience with a furnace "blowback" some 15 years ago. All the soot and ash in the furnace chimney and other exhaust channels was blown back into the offices and galleries, covering everything with an acid coating of black, gritty, foul smelling debris. While it was certainly a horror story, good came of it. Rescue teams of conservators from all over the US (and Europe, I think) rushed to the site armed with vacuum cleaners and nylon net. SUNY (State University of New York) chemists at SUNY Stonybrook analysed the discharge and concocted a neutralizer that wouldn't do further harm. It was a powder, I think. It was applied and vacuumed off. Things were then "aired". I'm sure some things continue to stink because odors (if nothing else) got into layers of upholstery. AT ANY RATE, I'd call the insurance company and see what their claims people say. They may have a list of firms that clean smoke-damaged stuff. I'd call Stonybrook, and see if they have any advice (I think a paper was published, but I don't remember for certain). I'd call the American Institute of Conservators (AIC) - get their number from the curatorial/conservation dept of any large museum. See if they have a publication. Call the best curtain cleaning service in your area (they occasionally advertise that they clean after smoke damage). After all this information gathering, consider washing the weaving. Use a kiddie swimming pool and ORVUS soap (available from quilting supply sources or your local vet supply house). Use lots of water, little ORVUS, and be prepared to change the water many, many times. The point here is to flush out the solids and stop any chemical reactions from the gas/solid mix. Let the textile soak, then use a cheap sponge (the bigger the better) and pat up and down all over the textile. Don't scrub. Patting up and down forces the water through the textile, dislodging dirt. Scrubbing abrades things and provides more sites for the dirt to attach. When the poured-off water appears clear, let the textile air dry. Look and smell, then rewash if necessary. Be prepared to settle for better-but-not-perfect. Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ From: MDSDMB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:11:17 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Shoe Book Try Alter Years 1-818-797-2723. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:36:57 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: "Wichmann, David" CC: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Wichmann, David wrote: > > >a Vietnamese immigrant to the U.S. wears blue jeans, not her native dress. > Maybe where you live, but out here in the SF Bay area, they would be > just as likely to maintain their cultural dress. If you are interested in this subject you might find the following book helpful: LAO MIEN EMBROIDERY, Migration & Change. This was writen by Ann Yarwood Goldman (who lives & works in Berkeley, CA) in 1995 and is published by White Lotus Press in Bangkok. However I am sure that Fred Struthers could get you a copy (fsbks@mcn.org). This book wil be reviewed in the Fall issue of RAGS, which will be available in October. The review was written by Anita Luvera Mayer who has a wide background in ethnic textiles ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT) From: bd927@scn.org (Susan Courney) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Edward R. Hamilton Greetings: I'm looking for a recent catalog for Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller. They have the Museum of London's Textile and Clothing book at a reduced rate and I've heard rumors that they have the others as well including th shoe abook. If anyone out there has a copy of the catalog and can confirm or disp catalog and can look stuff up, please contact me at either bd927@scn.org or scourney@infoaccess.com. thanks Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:51:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "I. Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages > >I can't find the URL you mentioned on your server. Are the pages there yet? Yes, but I appear to have noted the address wrong. >>"http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson". Should be: "http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson/" or even "http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" Marc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:10:34 -0600 (MDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: rognstad@stripe.colorado.edu (Sylvia Rognstad) Subject: Irish working class costume 1930s Looking for research for Irish clothing in the 1930s for "Dancing at Lughnasa". The characters are working class people living in the countryside. Any ideas for picture resources? Also visual sources for WWI British army chaplain's uniform? Any help would be greatly appreciated by the student who is designing this for our theatre dept. Sylvia Rognstad, costume shop supervisor, University of Colorado, Boulder. rognstad@stripe.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 19:00:53 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Annie Wilson Subject: Orvus Hi, I purchase Orvus Paste from my local feed store. 7-1/2 pounds for $19!~ The last container lasted me almost 5 years...... I use that stuff for everything. It even took out a barbeque sauce stain, out of a beige silk tie. Mind you, the stain had sat on the tie for 4 years! Out like magic. Can't say enough good things about it. Annie ANNMARIES SPECIALTIES Wildly Wonderful Wearables textile@airmail.net or textile@aol.com ------------------------------ From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@smtpgwy Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 19:14:50 EST To: uupsi9!h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: J. Arnold Smocks, Gypsy Costume, Sleeves and Stuff Hello to the List. It always takes me about a month to catch up with this, so apologies for outdated replies. My assumption is that they may still be useful! First, I have emailed Denise Zaccagnino (a friend) and asked her for a copy of the much desired Waffen und Kostume article on smocks by Janet Arnold. I think I wanted it from her anyway, or maybe I even have it somewhere! However, once I get it, I am willing to do the requested copies and mailings, if people send me a SASE for them (Int'l if necessary). I will not be able to do this before 1 October, however, and will post my address then. Next, regarding the question on 17th C. Gypsy costume: there exists an article that was published in Costume magazine (published in UK) on 16th C. Gypsy costume. I would imagine that this would be helpful. I have it at home, and could copy it for whoever asked. I really should not be saying such things, as I am horribly bogged down by an SCA event creating Burgundy in 1450 coming up really soon. However, the offer stands! Regarding the comment on 16th century Ren fair garb out of Hunter Green fabric and detachable sleeves: the comment was made that they should be ties, not buttons. I have made late 16th century Italian peasant garb out of Vecellio that has button-on sleeves. I originally made them ties, but got sick of them untying. In addition, there are peculiar large buttons all over the bodice front and down the sleeve elbow opening. With THAT many buttons on it, it seemed logical that the sleeves might remove by being buttoned also. Just a thought. Just a report on some of my group's activities regarding costuming: we (The Gilded Pearl, internal 1450-1650 organization in the East USA part of SCA) have been focusing on this Burgundian theme event and study around 1450, and I feel have really had a good time. Even though I mainly focus on Italian dress that is a bit later, this drifting into another time and place has been a lot of fun. I researched men's garb, and we taught many classes at Pennsic from everything regarding bias-cut hose, shoes, accessories, headwear, women's garb and non-costume studies. The classes were well received, and maybe some people will be inspired to do real doublets with tied hose! (At least, that's my dream - if I can only get my own done now!) At any rate, we have accumulated a bunch of class notes from the whole thing, so if anyone wants some basic stuff, let me know. None of us claim to be experts, but many of us are decent costumers and make sensible assumptions when we don't know what's really going on! Also, I must add that a fairly new book on the military front has caught my eye and interest, and I have bought it. It is the 15th Century Soldier by Gerry Embleton (and John Howe?), and is a series of re-enactment photos and discussion by a rather serious group of reenactors out in Switzerland. Originally, I did not wish to purchase it because it was expensive ($65), and did not show original pieces, only interpretations. I have come to reconsider my rather snobbish opinion, and have decided that their efforts are admirable, and really give me some inspiration in my own recreation world. In addition, it is really very interesting to see whole groups of people dressed in recreated clothing, and gives one a good sense of what might be right or wrong to do. This is not meant as a criticism, but I really find it helpful to see someone else's creation before attempting my own. Besides, anyone who wears bias cut hose is a hero in my book! I have now seen other articles by him and them, and have come to respect the work that has been invested. Lastly, I am once again amused at how passionately we debate things that are so esoteric to others in the world! I was sure that by the end of the August posts there would be no opportunity to rib people about the Vintage Clothing Wars - but I was wrong! You didn't give up the ghost!!! I can gleefully poke fun (gently, mind you, or I might suffer for it) at my costume compatriots who are so passionately attached to hobbies and jobs on conserving a piece of history. I think you're ALL right, and although I am tempted to put in my two cents, believe me friends, it has all been said. Hurrah for free speech and eclectic interests! What's on board next? Liz Jones ljones@datalogix.com (Don't use reply, use forward instead) aka Maestra Damiana (SCA) ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 17:58:01 PDT Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 To: "R.L. Shep" , h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:36:57 -0800 R.L. Shep wrote: >Wichmann, David wrote: >> >> >a Vietnamese immigrant to the U.S. wears blue jeans, not her native dress. >> Maybe where you live, but out here in the SF Bay area, they would be >> just as likely to maintain their cultural dress. > >If you are interested in this subject you might find the following book >helpful: LAO MIEN EMBROIDERY, Migration & Change. ------snip ..o0*0o.. I am not sure why but everytime someone writes directly to gretchen I get the mail too. Is anyone else getting this? Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "I. Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Another stupid typo I really hate this. Ok. let's try >"http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/Carlson/" >or even > >"http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/Carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" My apologies for the inconvenience. Marc ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 00:02:25 PDT Subject: Janet Arnold To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. I ordered the article about smocks from the NY library. But I remember that there was a list of articles that someone posted to the list. After combing it all (I did not have time to delete all that mail) I have not been able to find it. Can whoever posted the article titles that she wrote repost them or send them to me? The library charges a high amount plus your first born for researching the request! There are about 6 of us interested in the Dallas area that may order them all and split the cost. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:04:21 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Green Dye I have Kathleen Smith~s vegetable-dyed silk and wool swatch cards and there are definite hunter greens on both cards listed under the "indigo and fustic" green sections. However, Kathleen doesn~t give a name to any of her shades, she works by swatches alone. (As in, you send her a piece of the swatch you want her to replicate). (For those of you who do not know Kathleen, she used to work in the textile dept. at Col. Wmsbg. Her company is Textile Reproductions, Box 48, West Chesterfield, MA 01084 (413) 296-4437. Kathleen is trained in historic methods of handweaving and wool dyeing and is very helpful if you have any questions on historic methods, esp. if you need to know how a certain color might have been obtained. Give her a call.) I have a question related to a paint color that is on the walls at one of the historic homes at which I volunteer. The attic room (original paint still on the walls and never painted over) is painted a color always referred to as "poison green." It is a medium dark green. Recently, the restorers at MESDA who are working on the home made the "discovery" that this room was actually originally painted the Prussian Blue (a light grayish-teal blue) that appears on woodwork throughout the house, and for some reason related to the linseed oil in the paint, this attic room aged over the 175 years since to this dark greenish color that appears to me to be nothing like the original lighter blue. What I would like to know is if anyone knows whether this can or has happened to *fabric* colors? Are we often seeing a color that is nothing like the original, other than the obvious faded greys and browns that used to be logwood purples and iron blacks? I am referring more to colors that actually change in hue over time rather than just fade, due to the mordants used or whatever. Thanks in advance to anyone who has anything on this. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:14:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Philip E Cutone To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: Footwear of the Middle Ages "I. Marc Carlson" writes: > Should be: > "http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson/" > or even > "http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" Try: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/ I believe that's what you want. In Service to the People of the Society, Filip of the Marche ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 28 ************************************ From ???@??? Sat Sep 07 13:44:18 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02287 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:39:11 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19296; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:05:21 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:00:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 29 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 29 Today's Topics: List of Articles (Repost) Re: help me unsubscribe Re: Misers purse orvus paste Re: Orvus Re: Textile cleaning Misers purse pattern source Re: Textile cleaning Orvus Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 27 Re: Green Dye Shoe Book Misc. - reply Stains on White Cotton Was: Orvus Paste Re: looking for linen yardage Re: Shoe Book Web Site ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 8:57:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Sheryl Nance-Durst To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: List of Articles (Repost) Here's the copy that I had saved of the article list (originally posted by Denise Zaccagnino). -------------------------------------------------------------------- COSTUMING ARTICLES "Elizabethan and Jacobean Smocks and Shirts," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2 (1977), pp. 89-110. "Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuryneckwear," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2(1973), pp. 109-124. "Two Early Seventeenth Century Fencing Doublets," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2 (1979), pp. 107-20 "A Mantua c. 1708=A99 Clive House Museu, College Hill, Shrewsbury," by Janet Arnold. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 26-31. "A Court Mantua of c. 1740," by Janet Arnold. Costume #6, 1972,pp. 48-52. "A Pink Domino c. 1760=A970 at the Victoria and Albert Museum," by Janet Arnold. Costume #3, 1969, pp. 31-34. "Female Costume in Aesthetic Movement of the 1870 and 1880s," by Leonee Ormond. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 33-38. "The Medieval 'Corset'," by Kay Staniland. Costume #3, 1969, pp. 10-13. "Mary Tudor's Wardrome," by Alison J. Carter. Costume #18, 1984,pp. 9-28. "Reflections on the Polish Nobleman's Attire in the Sarmatian Tradition," by George E. Borchard. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 13-22. "Bejewelled Fur Tippets and the Palatine Fashion," by Francis Weiss. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 37-43. "Burgundian Court Costume from a Norwich Tapestry," by Lesley Parker. Costume #5, 1971, pp. 14-18. "Sumptuary Legislation and English Costume, an Attempt to Assess the Effect of the Act of 1337," by Clifford R. Bell and Evelyn Ruse. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 22-31. "A Fifteenth Century Pattern for 'Chausses'," by Christina Hawkins. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 84-85. "Vestments from the Robinson Collection at the Whitworth Gallery, Manchester," by Joan Allgrove. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 76-79. "Scottish Portraits as a Source for the Costume Historian," by Rosalind K. Marshall. Costume #15, 1981, pp. 67-70. "Prince Edward's Clothes," by J. L. Nevinson. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 3-8. "Castle Howard: A Costume Museum in a Stately Home," by Cecile Hummel. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 30-32. "Manuscript Sources for the History of Medieval Costume," by Janet Backhouse. Costume #?, 19??, pp. 9-14. "The Rates of the London Custom House in 1550," by Joan Edwards and J. L. Nevinson. Costume #4, 1770, pp. 3-12. "Hosiery: A Bibliography," by Madeleine Ginsburg. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 39-45. **************************************************************** On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Erin Harvey Moody wrote: > In the original post, I believe someone was looking for the Janet Arnold > shirts and smocks article published in Waffen und Kostumkunde. No one se= ems > to be responding to the "who has this in the first place", all I see are > continuing requests for the article. I do not have a copy on hand but > probably can obtain one. However, does anyone remember when this might h= ave > been published? My research indicates that Waffen.... goes back as far a= s > 1897. I do not have the resources to search via author not the time to > search back 100 years (okay Arnold isnt that old but....), unless some ot= her > research guru out there can dig this one up, I would need more info from > someone here to give me a starting point. > > Please email me or the list and I will keep the list updated on what I ca= n find. > > Erin Moody > erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu > ------------------------------ From: Noelle_Nicol@dgii.com (Noelle Nicol) To: O7AZ@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU (Haney Kristina) Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:14:16 -0500 Subject: Re: help me unsubscribe One more time for all those wish to unsubscribe- Requests should *not* be sent to the list. All list maintance requests should go to h-costume-request@ andrew.cmu.edu Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:40:44 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: MDSDMB@aol.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Misers purse There is an illustration, and complete instructions for making a Miser's Purse (which they call a "Crochet Bead Purse") in CIVIL WAR LADIES: Fashions and NeedleArts of the Early 1860s. These purses were usually crocheted, with or without beads -but usually with. I bought a very nice one with grey/black steel beads in Covent Garden Market (in London) a few years ago. Civil War Ladies is primary source material and this pattern is reprinted from Peterson's Magazine 1864. The price of the book is $24.95 +2.50 shipping. It is available from fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 1996 08:51:25 -0800 From: "Karen Lovejoy" Subject: orvus paste To: "H-Costume" This orvus paste sounds like a miracle product, I have a white 100% cotton dress with a small blood stain. I wonder if it would take that out. I may have to order some from Clothilde's and try it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:49:36 +0000 From: Alan Braggins To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Orvus > From: "Carole Newson-Smith" > Subject: Textile cleaning > > I've just been introduced to a washing paste called Orvus, by a friend Here's some extracts from some old posts with more about Orvus. --- I am not an expert on cleaning garments and do not want to mislead anyone, but one soap recommended by quilters and sewers of silk is "orvus". Orvus was designed to clean cow's udders and can be gotten at a veterinary supply store or through various sewing magazines. However, the latter is very expensive. It lasts forever because one only uses a tiny amount. It can also be used in the washing machine. All one uses is a thimble full. Paula Sanders HIST_PS@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU --- Also well known to quilters is *Orvus soap*, a very mild paste soap *without* lots of extra chemicals and stuff (it's pure sodium lauryl sulfate). This is also available through quilting suppliers or (get this!) at farm supply stores, where it's sold in bulk for shampooing horses - - foals, for instance, who have very sensitive skin - - and the fleeces of show lambs and sheep. Many quilters use it for general laundry, hair washing, et cetera. (Note: do NOT confuse this product with *Corvus*, also a horse product, but with lots of ingredients you don't want to treat your cloth with.) All of these products are used just a tablespoon or two at a time for human- sized loads of laundry. One source (usual disclaimers, I have no connection with this company) is Pine Tree Quiltworks, PO Box 216, Cape Cottage Branch, Cape Elizabeth, Maine 04107; phone (207)799-7357; fax (207)799- 3525. They have Synthrapol, 16 oz for $3.20; Retayne, 16 oz for $4.20, and Orvus soap, 8 oz for $3.16, all plus shipping (which is $3.99 for orders under $25). I'm told an even cheaper size for Orvus is a 7.5-lb jar for around $16 - - available at some pet supply stores, even some Wal-Marts. --- [...] lemon-based liquid; water and quilt-washing liquid; or water and Orvus. The latter is recommended by Lyn Dearborn, my most thorough and detailed source on caring for silk. Orvus is available from farm supplies -- and occassionally quilt shops and museums that handle fabric. It is (get this) used by dairies to wash cows' teats before milking, and as such, is perfectly pH-balanced, with no harmful chemicals... If your silk veil has any stains, allow it to sit for some time in your washing solution. If you elect to use the lemon-based liquid, you can rinse your silk in cool water -- by hand, or in the machine, as will be discussed in a moment. If you use a pH-balanced solution, such as quilt cleaner or Orvus (moo!), it's important to rinse with a slightly acid solution. Lyn recommends a capful of white vinegar to half a machine of water, or a very dilute solution of glacial acetic acid. Why the acid solution? Unlike other fabrics, silk needs an acid environment, whereas soaps -- even natural ones, Lyn adds -- are almost always basic. (Egad, you high school chemistry teacher was right -- everyone needs to know *some* chemistry, even Middle Eastern dancers!) Lori Kishimoto --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Carole Newson-Smith cc: costume Subject: Re: Textile cleaning Hey, guys. Since we are on the subject of cleaning. Is there any way to get a spot of ink off china silk? I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice on this problem. Thanks. Puce, Chris (the Cyborg) "What? Me Worry?" On 3 Sep 1996, Carole Newson-Smith wrote: > I've just been introduced to a washing paste called Orvus, by a friend who is > a spinner and weaver of wool, and I wanted to let you know about it. Orvus is > known as a an old-fashioned horse shampoo, which is how I described it at the > store when I bought it. If you buy the stuff at a textile-related shop, you > can buy small quantities, but at a much greater price. > > Anyway, I used a tiny amount for washing a silk crepe veil the other day in > cool water, and it worked like a charm. > > Orvus is Proctor and Gamble's brand name for sodium laurel sulfate (I hope > I've spelled that right), and it is a wetting agent that suds up nicely. I'm > planning to wash a fleece with it this weekend. > > Carole Newson-Smith > (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) > email: Carole_Newson-Smith@net > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:59:57 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: Misers purse pattern source Re: Joan Broneske's request for miser's purse pattern: We carry CIVIL WAR LADIES: Fashions & Needle-arts of the Early 1860's in which, on pg 289, is an illustration with complete instructions for a miser's purse labeled "Crochet Bead Purse". Inquiries to: Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH P O Box 2706 Ft.Bragg CA 95437 email: fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 1996 10:43:31 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Textile cleaning To: "Conrad Hodson" , "costume" Reply to: RE>>Textile cleaning Conrad Hodson wrote: :Hey, guys. Since we are on the subject of cleaning. Is there any way to :get a spot of ink off china silk? I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice :on this problem. Thanks. : :Puce, Conrad, Do you have a scrap that you can experiment on? I've heard people swear that hair spray works on ball point ink, but you run the risk of taking the original color out as well. You can purchase cleaning fluid at large hardware stores. Put the fluid on a cleaning cloth rather than pouring directly on the silk. Rub very gently, as I have taken some of the color out when rubbing too enthusiastically. Is the piece worth dry cleaning to get the spot out? That may be the best solution. Good luck. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 1996 11:00:29 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Orvus To: "costume" When I posted before, I was unclear as to where I bought the stuff. Orvus can be purchased at stores that sell horse-related supplies, so people in rural areas may have better access to the stuff. Anyway, I paid $20 US, for a container that weighs 7 1/2 lbs and is about a gallon in volume, in a hardware store called Roberts in Woodside, California. I don't know if they do mail order. So yes, you can get it in small containers at textile shops, but if you know you like the stuff and want to buy it a little cheaper, it can be done. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:28:25 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: willow@recreating-history.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 27 Penny sez: >I have documented green in almost every period from the 1100-1929. The >name go around and around. Most used names are POPINJAY GREEN, VERT, >GOOSETURD GREEN, and LINCOLN GREEN, and the list goes on and on. Okay, I should qualify my previous statement that green was very difficult to obtain prior to analine (sp?) dyes... I was thinking of "hunter green", and not any old pale or bluish shade obtainable from overdying and so on. It's my understanding that a deep, rich "hunter" green would have been very expensive to produce and thus rare (and certainly not in the common useage we see at Faire or in the SCA... yup, I'm guilty too... love that hunter green!) 8-) >2. I need to know the names of two periodicals/magazines that cover >lists of costume books? You mean as their main function, or just in the course of the rest of their magazine? You've really picked a hard topic! >3. Are there any other sources that can be relavent to costume publications? Like how? And by "publications", do you mean magazines, or anything published, like books or patterns? >4. A hard question, what is the Standard Industrial Classification (SIC) >code number for costume publications/author? Hint: Authors it may be on >a tax form, just a guess. For this I checked my "Phonedisk" for business which has "Book Publishing" as 273101. There's no category as specific as "Costume Publications" or even "Authors", so that's as close as I could get. There is "Writing Services, Professional", but that seems to be resume services, and so on. The number for that is 733801. Good luck!!! 8-) Then Dale said about Orvus soap: It is advertised in her catalog as "a SAFE washing >concentrate for silk fabrics, treasured needlework, and quilts alike. >Contains no harmful phosphates. Biodegradable. Highly concentrated. >Color and consistency may change from winter to summer." Their >toll-free order line is 1-800-545-4002. Thank you VERY much for this info! I'd heard about Orvus for several years, but also hearing that it was a horse soap, I hadn't purchased any to try on my precious quilts! Now that I know what's in it (or not in it), I'm going to run out and get some for my latest acquisition - a 1930's 9-patch quilt I got at the SJ flea market for only $35! But it does smell very musty and perhaps even a little cigarette smokey... 8-P Time for a bath! ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:28:33 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu cc: carole_newson-smith@net.com, Gerekr@aol.com Subject: Re: Green Dye Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) wrote: >But I have found a list of colors that were available in fifteenth >century Italy, and there were about 20 color names in the list. > >Green was often dyed by first dipping the fabric in a yellow bath, then >in a blue. Green was possible, but I haven't found the term "hunter >green" in my admittedly small research. I didn't see the original post, so I don't know what period we're talking about here. My understanding is that green is one of the easier colours to get. Among others, dyeing first with woad (indigo would also work) and overdying with weld is documented. This has the advantage of not needing to mordant the cloth afterwards since weld contains alum and will self-mordant the combination. I must admit that this is hearsay since my own experiments were interupted when I had to move suddenly a couple of years ago and I haven't had the time to restart them since. My sources seem pretty certain though. Gary R.D. Walker (known in the SCA as Master Gerek the Far-seeing (among other things)) Gerekr@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:38:41 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Shoe Book This title is not listed in Whitakers (British Books in Print) which means it will be hard to get from a commercial source. Your best bet is writing directly to Her Majesty's Stationery Office or you can e-mail Blackwell's (Oxford, Eng) to see if they have a copy in one of their stores or can get one from HMSO. Their e-mail is: sales@blackwell.co.uk They will sell to individuals but it sounds as if this title may no longer be available. Good luck. Marsha the Librarian >I wondered if any of you good people might know where I could locate the >following book for a friend of mine: > >>>Shoes & Paterns, Medieval finds from Excavations in London, Francis Grew & >>>Margareth de Neergaard, London, Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1988, ISBN >>>0-11-290443-2. Hardcover if possible, if not paperback is fine. He requires >>>a price. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:38:48 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Misc. - reply Was out sick for a while but wanted to clarify two points. I read the article (as I mentioned) in the Columbus Dispatch. I reported what was said in the article. I did see Tutankhamen's tomb when I was in Egypt but believe me, they didn't let tourists look at the mummy. I have no personal knowledge of it's condition or whether the newspaper story was accurate. It didn't quote any sources. But posting to the list, I hope comments like this may be confirmed or denied or information added. Sorry I can't be sure of all my "facts" before posting them but it was posted as second hand information. Second, making removeable sleeves referred to buttonHOLES with LACES not buttons. You are correct that buttons would be inaccurate. Is there another term for bound holes used for laces rather than buttons? I'll use that in future to be more precise. Thanks. Marsha >>"....I read an article recently about the >>expansion of the Mummy Room in the Cairo Museum. It mentioned >>Tutankamen's mummy is not on display because it was damaged when Howard >>Carter ripped it to get at the gold jewelry." ****>I somehow can't imagine Carter "ripping" the body of someone he worked all >those years to find just to get at some trinkets quicker. I have never >heard of this "fact" until reading the above quote...... >PLEASE try and be sure of your "facts" before reporting them!**** ">>The Folk Wear Bolivian Milkmaid jacket is a good pattern for a 17th >>century woman's jacket. If you want more of a doublet effect, make the >>sleeves detachable (put round buttonholes at the top of the sleeve and >>around the jacket armhole so sleeves can be laced on or off as desired) >>and lengthen the jacket an inch or two." > ****>>AND another thing!! (Can't shut me up just yet...) If you were doing >detachable sleeves, wouldn't you use ties instead of buttons?**** ------------------------------ From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@wadsworth.com To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, karen.lovejoy@txgtwy.mcis.washington.edu Date: 5 Sep 96 14:31:00 Subject: Stains on White Cotton Was: Orvus Paste New Text Item: orvus paste What also works for blood and food stains on white, non vintage, cotton is For Those Days available at New York Fabrics and Sew Fro chain stores. Stacey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________ Subject: orvus paste Author: karen.lovejoy@txgtwy.mcis.washington.edu ("Karen Lovejoy") @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 9/5/96 8:51 AM ReturnPath: Subject: Time: 8:48 orvus paste Date: 9/5/96 This orvus paste sounds like a miracle product, I have a white 100% cotton dress with a small blood stain. I wonder if it would take that out. I may have to order some from Clothilde's and try it. ------------------------------ From: MsSheep@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:46:38 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: looking for linen yardage Hello, Can anyone suggest a source for linen yardage ? I am making petticoats and shortgowns for myself and DD's . We need a goodly amount and so need to find stuff at a reasonable price... Any help appreciated. I can be E-mailed at mssheep@aol.com Thanks , Dianne in Indy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:26:45 -0700 From: Judy McCourt To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Shoe Book >I wondered if any of you good people might know where I could locate the >following book for a friend of mine: > >>>Shoes & Paterns, Medieval finds from Excavations in London, Francis Grew & >>>Margareth de Neergaard, London, Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1988, ISBN >>>0-11-290443-2. Hardcover if possible, if not paperback is fine. He requires >>>a price. Thanks. Shoes & Pattens is sold by Green Duck Designs in the USA (their item # HMS290443). They also sell the Textiles & Clothing c.1150-c.1450 and Dress Accessories c.1150-c.1450 from HMSO. They have a nice selection of costuming books. You can see their web page at http://www.greenduck.com and email them at orders@greenduck.com disclaimer: I'm not connected with these people, just a satisfied customer! -- Judy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 19:14:27 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume Subject: Web Site In case any of you have not looked in on my Web Site, the following message might spur you on to doing that. ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS --------------15C3136B34DB Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:11:03 -0700 From: Nina Dilbeck Organization: California State University, Fresno To: shepgibb@mail.mcn.org Subject: Home Page X-URL: http://204.189.12.10/R/Rags/DefaultG.html Thanks for having such a great home page. Your links are very useful and I will be using them in my historic costume class. Nina Dilbeck California State University, Fresno ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 29 ************************************ From ???@??? Sat Sep 07 13:44:22 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02365 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 7 Sep 1996 02:22:07 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19290; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:16:24 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs37.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:11:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 30 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 30 Today's Topics: Elizabethan noble costumes Re: Elizabethan noble costumes Re: Green Dye Re: Green Dye [Fwd: Re: Orvus Paste for cleaning] Wool batt cartridge pleats and peter aersten... Re: Elizabethan noble costumes Re: Elizabethan noble costumes Re: orvus paste Lacing Farthingales ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:31:00 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Margo Anderson Subject: Elizabethan noble costumes >I have questions about the authenticity of trims I have seen used on >Elizabethan re-creations. > >One was the use of tiny irridescent rocaille beads. Are rocailles period? >How about that irridescent blue-purple-green coating? > >Another was the use of metallic copper braid. Wouldn't real copper have >tarnished green? Would there be any way to clean it once it was sewed to >the garment? Is there ANY documentation for copper trim? > >How about jewels with Aroura Borealis coating? does anyone know when this >treatment began? > >My other question is about the practice of making a matching bodice and >skirt as separate garments. Was this really a period practice? Arnold's >book seems to show mostly bodices missing their skirts, or one peice gowns >with the skirt sewn to the bottom edge of the bodice. > > I have found that when the seperate bodice and skirt are worn, the skirt >almost always slips down and shows its waistband below the bodice, if there >is no skirting or picadils to conceal it. > > When I worked in a theater costume shop, we made gowns by completely >finishing the bodices, then making the skirts with a concealed placket at >the same location as the bodice opening, pleating them into a petersam >waistband, and herringboning the waistband to the inside of the bodice. >This makes a less bulky, more comfortable garment, and is especially good >for children and others without a clearly defined waistline to hold the >skirt up. But is it period? > >Margo Anderson > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:16:35 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson To: Margo Anderson CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Elizabethan noble costumes Margo Anderson wrote: > > > I have found that when the seperate bodice and skirt are worn, the skirt > >almost always slips down and shows its waistband below the bodice, if there > >is no skirting or picadils to conceal it. > > A common problem - most of my costuming friends (including a bunch of SCA Laurels) will sew hooks into the bodice lining and eyes into the waistband, and join them up when the skirt and bodice are not one piece (which is difficult to get into when you're talking Elizabethans). I make my Italians all one piece since I don't usually have help dressing and it's easier to get into them that way. I think this is documentable since the Italians tended to layer stuff more than the English, but I confess I haven't tried documenting it. Carolyn ------------------------------ From: LACONSTANCE@delphi.com Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:20:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Green Dye To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Susannah, > What I would like to know is if anyone knows whether this can or has > happened to *fabric* colors? Are we often seeing a color that is > nothing like the original, other than the obvious faded greys and browns > that used to be logwood purples and iron blacks? Yes, the colors do change over time. And any compound color (made up of two or more dyes) can become a different color. First, the lighter colors tend to fade faster (that is true today of synthetic dyes, as well). Fabrics dyed with cochineal will become a bluer red over time, if washed in high alkaline soap. In the specific case of green, the usual way of doing it is to dye the fabric or yarn first with a yellow dye. Then do the indigo dips until the color is as desired. (This cannot be done in one step, because the chemistry of the two dyes is different) The yellow will tend to fade to a greater degree than the blue, thus over time what may start out as a nice leaf green will fade to a blue green, and in some cases the yellow will virtually disappear leaving just the blue. It is not just that some colors fade more than others, and some actually change to a different color. The impact is that, over time, a carefully planned color scheme can go awry because of these selective shifts. The real genius of the early dyers was in knowing enough about the expected shifts in color and being able to select those that would shift "compatibly" and not unbalance a color scheme even in their altered state. !!==!!===/> !! !! / <<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>> (!!--!!-/--+ >> Constance La Lena << !! !(x) !! ___ << weaver & dyer >> !! !! ! !! ! ! >> LACONSTANCE@delphi.com >> !!==!!=!==!! !=! <<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:23:33 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson To: Dale Loberger CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Green Dye Dale Loberger wrote: > What I would like to know is if anyone knows whether this can or has > happened to *fabric* colors? Are we often seeing a color that is > nothing like the original, other than the obvious faded greys and browns > that used to be logwood purples and iron blacks? I am referring more to > colors that actually change in hue over time rather than just fade, due > to the mordants used or whatever. Thanks in advance to anyone who has > anything on this. > I've read of this happening in illuminated manuscripts, particularly where the original color is somewhat fugitive, like purple. The occasional use of copper based pigments in replacement of real gold for illumination frequently resulted in the color turning green. Purples often turned into other colors in books - not just brown, but also blues and sometimes redish colors. And this is where the colors were probably least exposed to sunlight or other environmental conditions that would alter them. A really excellent reference on this in regards to paintings and books is "Materials and Techniques of Medieval Painting" by Daniel Thompson, from Dover, and "The Craftsman's Handbook" by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini, also from Dover. They both mention, in passing, whether the pigments were used for dying fabrics in addition as paint colors, but I'm afraid they don't go much into detail as to whether or not the fabrics would change color the same way. Carolyn Richardson Tetchubah of Greenlake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:26:19 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: Orvus Paste for cleaning] Dale Loberger wrote: > > I would like to know if anyone has ever used it for antique clothing and > had success in removing rust stains. > I tried using Orvus on some antique (40's and 50's) kimonos that I purchased as part of a bale of kimonos that the Costumer's Guild West bought. The kimonos were badly mildewed, at least most of them were. I'm afraid I didn't have too good of luck with the stuff - the mildew was still there even though I tried washing them 5 times, and unfortunately one of the kimonos was not colorfast and it bled red into the others that were pale in color. This despite cold water and Orvus. While I know lots of people who've had great luck with it, I guess the gods weren't smiling that day. btw, leaving the kimonos hanging up in the open for about 6 weeks got rid of the mildew smell. Carolyn ------------------------------ From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:35:58 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Wool batt Perhaps someone here can help me with this. I have an item (for the sake of argument, let's say it's a quilted underskirt) which has been made with a wool batt. The covering fabric is 100% cotton (no cringing!), quilted with cotton thread, although not closely quilted. I would like to be able to *wash* this without the wool felting. Can anyone here tell me how? Can anyone tell me why dry cleaning doesn't cause this? If at all possible, I would like to machine wash it (cold water) spin, and then hang to dry. Let me know if I'm dreaming. Many thanks, Meagn E. Maguire [TudorLdy@aol.com] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:27:19 +1000 (EST) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: cartridge pleats and peter aersten... Hi all... As usual I'm writing in the middle of a costume crisis. I'm trying to get a costume together which resembles as closely as possible the dresses from the kitchen scene and market scene period of Flemish painting (mostly by Peter Aersten, approx 1550's). I have cartridge pleated the skirt onto the bodice, but cannot seem to get it to sit right - the pleats are over an inche deep, in lined wool suiting. They pull at the back of the bodice (flat at front, knife pleats at side, cartridge pleats at the back) and make crinkles and stuff. Anyone got ay ideas? miesje. (trying her damnedest at something a little different) ______ mdevogel@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au ______ "By Luck not Virtue" - Elizabethan tournament impresse (favour) ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Elizabethan noble costumes Date: 06 Sep 96 10:00:00 BST Margo Anderson wrote >>I have questions about the authenticity of trims I have seen used on >>Elizabethan re-creations. > >>One was the use of tiny irridescent rocaille beads. Are rocailles period? >>How about that irridescent blue-purple-green coating? > Don't know these at all, sounds most unlikely! The only 'beading' I know of are pearls, real or fake, sequins, embroidery, enamel work and jewels. Fake pearls were made with gelatine and fish scales to give an irridescent glow. >>Another was the use of metallic copper braid. Wouldn't real copper >>have tarnished green? Would there be any way to clean it once it was >>sewed to the garment? Is there ANY documentation for copper trim? Don't know about copper (doesn't ring a bell - cheaper ornamentation tends to be silk, linen or wool braid). Certainly silver braid was used, which will also tarnish. Braids were almost certainly removable for cleaning. I think the very high court dresses were probably in need of constant maintenance, ruffs certainly were. Arnold's booklet 'Lost from Her Majesty's Back' gives the impression Elizabeth constantly shed ornaments from her dresses! >>How about jewels with Aroura Borealis coating? does anyone know when >>this treatment began? > Don't know this. > >My other question is about the practice of making a matching bodice and >skirt as separate garments. Was this really a period practice? >Arnold's book seems to show mostly bodices missing their skirts, or one >peice gowns with the skirt sewn to the bottom edge of the bodice. > > I have found that when the seperate bodice and skirt are worn, the >skirt almost always slips down and shows its waistband below the bodice, >if there is no skirting or picadils to conceal it. > This is a yes, but answer. Most high Elizabethan outfits do involve tabs (I know pickadils as the smaller tabs at the wrist or neck to support ruffs) at the waistline which help cover the waistline join. When I make them I mount the skirt on a separate waistband (petersham or equally stiff) and then sew that to the bodice to stop movement. From memory this is what Arnold shows. It does make it easier to manage the bulk. The tabs at the waist are mounted onto the bottom of the bodice and drop over to hide the join. This might also help miesje's question. Have you separately mounted the cartidge pleated skirt and then attached to the bodice or put it directly onto the bodice? I suggest the latter might well cause pulling on the bodice (depending on how stiff the bodice is, the Flemish and Dutch stuff always looks really stiff!) Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ From: Liz Stokes Subject: Re: Elizabethan noble costumes To: benrumson@worldnet.att.net (don and carolyn richardson) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: wander@hooked.net, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu don and carolyn richardson wrote: > > Margo Anderson wrote: > > > > > I have found that when the seperate bodice and skirt are worn, the skirt > > >almost always slips down and shows its waistband below the bodice, if there > > >is no skirting or picadils to conceal it. > > > > > A common problem - most of my costuming friends (including a bunch of > SCA Laurels) will sew hooks into the bodice lining and eyes into the > waistband, and join them up when the skirt and bodice are not one > piece (which is difficult to get into when you're talking > Elizabethans). > > I make my Italians all one piece since I don't usually have help > dressing and it's easier to get into them that way. I think this is > documentable since the Italians tended to layer stuff more than the > English, but I confess I haven't tried documenting it. I've sometimes laced my Elizabethans together with decorative points. The ribbons are sewn to the skirt and the bodice has pairs of eyelets. The ribbons are laced up from below and tied with in a bow or arming point. There are examples of this both visible and hidden. It's also a good technique for doublets and trunkhose, and for lacing your farthingale to your corset, which takes the weight off your hips and lower back. -- Liz Stokes ilaine@panix.com ----------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:04:25 -0300 (ADT) From: "Joy K. Pye MacSwain" To: Karen Lovejoy cc: H-Costume Subject: Re: orvus paste On 5 Sep 1996, Karen Lovejoy wrote: > Subject: Time: 8:48 > orvus paste Date: 9/5/96 > > This orvus paste sounds like a miracle product, I have a white 100% cotton > dress with a small blood stain. I wonder if it would take that out. I may > have to order some from Clothilde's and try it. > Greetings: Removing a small blood stain is one of the easiest stain to remove provided that you know who the blood came from in the first place. That person need only spit on the blood stain, rub gently and then wash as normal. The enzmes found in salvia will dissolve blood from that person.....:) :) :) Hope this helps. Joy Pye-MacSwain Elyene of Lochcarron, SCA ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Lacing Farthingales Date: 06 Sep 96 15:19:00 BST Liz Stokes said >I've sometimes laced my Elizabethans together with decorative points. >The ribbons are sewn to the skirt and the bodice has pairs of eyelets. >The ribbons are laced up from below and tied with in a bow or armingpoint. >There are examples of this both visible and hidden. It's also a >good technique for doublets and trunkhose, and for lacing your farthingale >toyour corset, which takes the weight off your hips and lower back. I've seen this technique in pictures for doublets and trunkhose but never for women's skirts. I would also like to say that I don't think its a good idea to try to take the weight off your hips (shouldn't really hit lower back anyway). If you lace to the corset the only place the weight can go is on your shoulders and possibly ribs. Neither of these are anything like as strong as hips and thighs. The only time I've had problems wearing Elizabethan clothes is when the waist was too loose and the weight sat on my shoulders - agony after a couple of days. Caroline ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 30 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:25 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13596 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:11:59 +0200 Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7251; Sun, 15 Sep 96 11:08:04 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5204; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:08:04 -0400 Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0427 for H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:08:01 -0400 Received: from BROWNVM (NJE origin SMTP@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5252 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:08:01 -0400 Received: from cs.brown.edu by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 15 Sep 96 11:08:00 EDT Received: from cslab4d.cs.brown.edu (cslab4d.cs.brown.edu [128.148.38.236]) by cs.brown.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA05303 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cslab4d.cs.brown.edu (8.7.1/BrownCS1.0) with SMTP id LAA20456 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: smh@cslab4d Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Approved-By: suzanne hader Message-Id: Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: suzanne hader Sender: Historic Costume List From: suzanne hader Subject: new home for h-costume To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Status: O Hello everybody, At long last, h-costume is finally moving to the Brown University listserv. I apologize to everyone for the wait, but the red tape was thick and plentiful trying to get the list moved. My name is Suzanne, I'm the new list owner. I also own the vintage clothing and jewelry list. I have been moderating vintage because we get a high turnover of subscribers, many of whom don't really know what they're doing, and thus the list gets spammed with "unsubscribe" messages. I am *not* going to do this with h-costume, at least not right away. Here's what you need to know about dealing with listserv: 1. If you're reading this message, you're subscribed, so there's no need to resubscribe. (But, if for some reason subscription became necessary, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'subscribe h-costume your-first-name your-last-name' in the body.) 2. If you'd like to unsubscribe, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'signoff h-costume' in the body. 3. To send a message to the list, address your email to h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu 4. To reach a real human being, you can try h-costume-request@brownvm.brown.edu, but these mails show up with Error message subject lines in my email box, so you're better off mailing me directly: smh@cs.brown.edu 5. To get a digest version of the list, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'set h-costume digest' in the body. At this moment, no one is receiving the digest version, but I have the list of people who were receiving digests. I will switch those users over to digest sometime today or tomorrow. 6. if you were recieving a digest, and you want to switch to individual postings, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'set h-costume mail' in the body. 7. For a fine little piece of email that covers most everything you'd want to do with listserv as a subscriber (how to get full mail headers, how to get at the archives, etc.) send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'help' in the body. 8. About the archives: they're starting from scratch now. If anyone has a request for old posts, I have about a year's worth of them from when h-costume was still on lunch. I would be happy to send any and all of them, and if I get some free time I might be able to put them on the web. If you have any other questions, feel free to mail me. Best, suzanne smh@cs.brown.edu From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:25 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13951 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:52:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199609151752.AA13951@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8560; Sun, 15 Sep 96 13:48:57 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8578; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:48:57 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:48:57 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at Brown University (1.8b)" Subject: Change in your subscription options for the H-COSTUME list To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de Reply-To: H-COSTUME-Request@BROWNVM.brown.edu X-Lsv-Listid: H-COSTUM Status: O Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:48:57 Suzanne Hader has just altered your subscription options for the H-COSTUME list as per the "SET H-COSTUM DIGESTS" command. For more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY H-COSTUME" command to LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (or LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET). From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:25 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17138 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:05:14 +0200 Message-Id: <199609160405.AA17138@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9822; Mon, 16 Sep 96 00:01:19 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0326; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:01:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:01:17 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - to 15 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 2 messages totalling 88 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. new home for h-costume 2. Renaissance Italian costume ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:11:48 -0400 From: suzanne hader Subject: new home for h-costume Hello everybody, At long last, h-costume is finally moving to the Brown University listserv. I apologize to everyone for the wait, but the red tape was thick and plentiful trying to get the list moved. My name is Suzanne, I'm the new list owner. I also own the vintage clothing and jewelry list. I have been moderating vintage because we get a high turnover of subscribers, many of whom don't really know what they're doing, and thus the list gets spammed with "unsubscribe" messages. I am *not* going to do this with h-costume, at least not right away. Here's what you need to know about dealing with listserv: 1. If you're reading this message, you're subscribed, so there's no need to resubscribe. (But, if for some reason subscription became necessary, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'subscribe h-costume your-first-name your-last-name' in the body.) 2. If you'd like to unsubscribe, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'signoff h-costume' in the body. 3. To send a message to the list, address your email to h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu 4. To reach a real human being, you can try h-costume-request@brownvm.brown.edu, but these mails show up with Error message subject lines in my email box, so you're better off mailing me directly: smh@cs.brown.edu 5. To get a digest version of the list, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'set h-costume digest' in the body. At this moment, no one is receiving the digest version, but I have the list of people who were receiving digests. I will switch those users over to digest sometime today or tomorrow. 6. if you were recieving a digest, and you want to switch to individual postings, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'set h-costume mail' in the body. 7. For a fine little piece of email that covers most everything you'd want to do with listserv as a subscriber (how to get full mail headers, how to get at the archives, etc.) send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'help' in the body. 8. About the archives: they're starting from scratch now. If anyone has a request for old posts, I have about a year's worth of them from when h-costume was still on lunch. I would be happy to send any and all of them, and if I get some free time I might be able to put them on the web. If you have any other questions, feel free to mail me. Best, suzanne smh@cs.brown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:06:38 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Renaissance Italian costume I recently bought _The Dress of the Venetians, 1495-1525_, by Stella Mary Newton. I have only glanced through it as yet but it looks like a scholarly in-depth work. It was published in 1988 by Scolar Press, Gower Publishing Company Ltd. I bought this book and several other costume books from the on-line bookstore Amazon Books (no relation to Amazon Drygoods). Their URL is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/index2.html If you search "costume" you will get a long list, including some books that are very hard to find elsewhere. Though some are out of print and some not yet published. I think they basically use a CD ROM of _Books in Print_ and possibly _Forthcoming Books in Print_; they also carry some foreign books in English. When you order they seem to contact the publisher or search some other database; your order may be quickly followed by an e-mail message saying Amazon can't get you the book after all. But still, Amazon is an excellent resource. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - to 15 Sep 1996 ***************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:27 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA28165 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:08:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199609170408.AA28165@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2926; Tue, 17 Sep 96 00:04:09 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7196; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:04:08 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:04:06 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Sep 1996 to 16 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 2 messages totalling 37 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mid-Late 15th Armscye Treatments 2. Renaissance beads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:52:25 MDT From: mgriggs@SHEPARDS.COM Subject: Mid-Late 15th Armscye Treatments Good Morning! This weekend, a young lady asked me about whether picadils were always used with shoulder rolls on bodices from the middle-late 15th Century. She also was wondering if they were always formed into loops or if they could be left flat. She was inquiring primarily about English costuming, but was interested in other countries of the time period. Off hand, I couldn't give her a firm answer. Running through the library, I couldn't find any examples to give help. From Janet Arnold's books, it looks like they were all combined with shoulder rolls and looped. But that's not enough info to say they much beyond "sometimes" or "usually." Can anyone recommend any sources which might show them without shoulder rolls or flat? Thanks! Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/costume.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:00:53 -0400 From: Mazelle@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Renaissance beads What are chevron whiteheart and other trade beads? Mazelle Neal ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Sep 1996 to 16 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:29 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04383 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:07:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199609180407.AA04383@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6241; Wed, 18 Sep 96 00:03:03 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0954; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:03:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:03:00 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Sep 1996 to 17 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 8 messages totalling 229 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mid-late 15th Armscye Treatments (2) 2. Copper 3. Bath Costume Museum -Reply 4. Renaissance beads (3) 5. Renaissance beads & a Chinese jacket ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:27:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: mid-late 15th Armscye Treatments Lyssa said >This weekend, a young lady asked me about whether picadils were always used >with shoulder rolls on bodices from the middle-late 15th Century. She also >was wondering if they were always formed into loops or if they could be left >flat. She was inquiring primarily about English costuming, but was interested >in other countries of the time period. Off hand, I couldn't give her a firm >answer. Running through the library, I couldn't find any examples to give >help. From Janet Arnold's books, it looks like they were all combined with >shoulder rolls and looped. But that's not enough info to say they much beyond >"sometimes" or "usually." Can anyone recommend any sources which might show >them without shoulder rolls or flat? I can't help but wonder if there is a mistake in century here. It's my understanding that, certainly in England, there are no shoulder rolls or pickadills on women's clothes (or mens!) in the *15th* century. For that matter there are no 'bodices' - they are always cut through the waist, so that, how ever many pieces go into the kirtle, or gown, the upper and lower body pieces are one (I hope that explains what I mean). The line is very smooth and the shape triangular (narrow at top, full at bottom). Separate bodices, shoulder rolls and pickadills (or tabs) are mid *16th* century in England - I think its a little earlier in Italy. Later in the century tabs at the arm, like the ones at the waist, are cut and sewn to shape not just a roll of cloth - but I think Janet Arnold shows that in Patterns of Fashion. The emphasis changes, and women become two triangles, broad shoulders and full at the hem, with the points of the triangles intersecting at the waist - the picture of Lettice Knollys is a good example. Therefore the idea is to exaggerate the shoulder line. Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:41:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Copper For the enquirer about copper braid I have come across a reference to an actor wearing copper lace (and velvet breeches) at the first production of Marlowe's Tamberlaine (part 2?) in the 1590s. It is in a book about the murder of Marlowe and I can chase down the details if required. However, it definitely puts copper lace (could mean braid or lacing - not likely to be 'lace' in the 1590s) in its place! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:21:01 MDT From: mgriggs@SHEPARDS.COM Subject: Re: mid-late 15th Armscye Treatments Mrs C S Yeldham Wrote: | Separate bodices, shoulder rolls and pickadills (or tabs) are mid *16th* | century in England - I think its a little earlier in Italy. Later in the | century tabs at the arm, like the ones at the waist, are cut and sewn to | shape not just a roll of cloth - but I think Janet Arnold shows that in | Patterns of Fashion. The emphasis changes, and women become two triangles, | broad shoulders and full at the hem, with the points of the triangles | intersecting at the waist - the picture of Lettice Knollys is a good | example. Therefore the idea is to exaggerate the shoulder line. | Yes, Thanks! This helps a lot! Would you believe more of a typo than a mistake in centuries? 1550, 15th century, Makes perfect sense when the phones ringing. :) Back to the books! Lyssa P.S. Aside from this, I haven't gotten any messages since late yesterday from the list. Is it just really quiet? I've requested the list's help message to see if something's not set right with my profile. Hope I don't miss anything! :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:42:01 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: Bath Costume Museum -Reply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Received: from po9.andrew.cmu.edu (PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.109]) by unix4.derby.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA12081 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:47:49 GMT Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08162; Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:23:24 -0400 Received: via switchmail for h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from po3.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from west.thomson.com (west.thomson.com [198.80.143.3]) by po3.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14628 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:20:15 -0400 Received: from cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com by west.thomson.com with SMTP id AA11713 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <@west.thomson.com:h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu>); Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:20:13 -0400 Received: by cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/1.0) id AA0086; Thu, 15 Aug 96 10:14:08 -0700 Received: from ITP with "Lotus Notes Mail Gateway for SMTP" id FD7450E8B2B3583488256387005EC3BA; Thu, 15 Aug 96 10:14:08 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain New Text Item: British Suppliers In case no-one else has replied to this, it's the Museum of Costume, Assembly Rooms, Bennett St., Bath (no postcode given in my source). Tel. (01225) 461111 x 2785 Greetings! Would someone please send me the address and phone number of the costume museum in Bath? Thank you very much! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:19:17 -0400 From: MDSDMB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Renaissance beads I you really want to know what beads were used in late SCA period, look at the June issue of The Magazine Antiques. If the article on the Boston Museum of Fine Arts exhibition The Needles Excellency isn't clear enough, call or write the curator, Nicola Shilliam at Boston MFA. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:40:52 -0700 From: Rick Balen Subject: Re: Renaissance beads Mazelle@AOL.COM wrote: >=20 > What are chevron whiteheart and other trade beads? >=20 > Mazelle Neal >From what I remember the chevron bead is a glass bead made by layering=20 different colors of glass, after which they bevel the edge to show the=20 colored layers. The whiteheart is a glass bead made from two colors white= and=20 ? with the white in the middle or heart of the bead. Beads that where mad= e=20 for trade with the Indians where called trade beads.=20 Rick Balen --=20 Votre humble & domestique ob=E9issant M. Cotton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:48:34 -0400 From: "Suzanne M. Hye" Subject: Re: Renaissance beads & a Chinese jacket This is probably a repeat of an offer I've made here and other related listservs, but if you would like an article regarding the durability of Delicas, the seed bead of choice for embellishments, please e-mail me and I'll e-mail it out to you. Suzanne Hye ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:06:51 -0400 From: "Suzanne M. Hye" Subject: Re: Renaissance beads In a message dated 96-09-16 22:11:55 EDT, you write: << What are chevron whiteheart and other trade beads? Mazelle Neal >> >From Lois Sherr Dubin's _The History of Beads_: "Chevrons are a specialized cane or drawn-glass bead. They are formed by forcing or blowing a single- or multiple-layered gather of glass into a tapered mold with corrugated sides, thus producing points on its outer surface. This pleated gather is subsequently encased with additional glass layers of various colors, which may again be molded to prodice further outer layers with points. Finally, stripes may be applied to the surface. Still viscid, this multilayered, hollow gather is then quickly drawn into a caneof at least 6 feet, cooled, and finally sectioned into beads." These bead are typically striped with several colors, with a "heart" of white or another color. These and many other beads were traded for goods and services. Today, most trade beads come from Africa; however, true trade beads while coming from Africa were actually made in such places as Venice. Reproduction trade beads are available today and are made in India, among other places. If you would like a list of places which sell trade beads primarily for reenactors and costumers, please e-mail me. I can also suggest sources for reproduction (Indian glass) trade beads. Suzanne Hye ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Sep 1996 to 17 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:32 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA12132 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:07:10 +0200 Message-Id: <199609190407.AA12132@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0241; Thu, 19 Sep 96 00:02:53 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8991; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:02:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Sep 1996 to 18 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 9 messages totalling 215 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. vest linings 2. Rennaisance button on sleeves? (2) 3. French-Indian Wars Rangers Uniforms 4. 1940's Fashions (fwd) (2) 5. Past Patterns (2) 6. Theater Design Questionairre! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:07:00 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: vest linings Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly what type of fabric is the most appropriate/authentic to use as lining and as the back piece in a tuxedo vest of the 1860's? I would like to verify my own information. Thanks. Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:36:09 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Rennaisance button on sleeves? The Polsons wrote: > Of course, I'm definately not the world's expert on ren clothing (or > anything even close to it!) I'd not heard of the button on sleeves, just > the tied on ones. Does anyone have any original source material for button > on sleeves? I don't know about "buttoned on" sleeves, Willow, but my friend Esther who does marvelous Italian costuming does a trick which she assures me is period where she insets a strip of grosgrain with buttonholes into the inside of the sleeve so it's not visible, and then ties on the sleeves thru these buttonholes (the ties are entirely on the sleeve). Maybe this is what they are referring to. I've never seen sleeves buttoned to the dress, although there are plenty of examples of them buttoned down the sides in various manners. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:27:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: French-Indian Wars Rangers Uniforms Can anyone help me with a request I have received from a client? He wants some advice about uniforms for an English Ranger unit in the French-Indian Wars, around 1750 I'm told. I particularly need to know about the style of breeches which would have been worn and how an English neck stock differs from a French one. I hope I've asked the right questions as it's not an area I'm particularly familiar with. This is not an area which is well documented in Britain so any information which I can get hold of fairly speedily will be gratefully received. Many thanks, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:38:09 -0400 From: Sharron Fina Subject: Re: Rennaisance button on sleeves? I have seen only one illustration of such an item; I believe it was on a gentleman's outfit. I'll have to go through all my books to see if I can find it again. It peaked my interest when I first saw it, but since I never saw another example of it, I didn't think it was appropriate to use until I did some more searching. The sleeve was buttoned to the top of the shoulder with four(?) buttons. The buttons seemed to be about 1" apart,but the buttonholes on the sleeve were about 5-6" apart, forming a raised pleat (for lack of a better word) between the buttons. I don't recollect that the illustration was very detailed otherwise. If I ever find it again I'll let you know where it is. Sharron Fina Department of Neuroscience University of Pennsylvania sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:04:26 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: 1940's Fashions (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:18:53 +0000 From: "Diane R. Warde" To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: 1940's Fashions I am a looking for patterns for men's and women's clothing of the 1940's for an uncoming drama production at our school. If you can help me locate particuarly a women's suit and a women's coat pattern I would be most gratelful. Sincerely, Diane R. Warde ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:54:59 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: 1940's Fashions (fwd) I highly recommend to Ms Warde that she look at Past Patterns and Folkwear's offerings, available from Alter Years (818-585-2994). Hope this helps, Mary Denise smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:38:02 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Past Patterns Can someone please post the address and phone number for Past Patterns. Does anyone know if they ship over night? FYI: My webpage is still at the same site. The post last week on historic costume research may have confused you. Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Look for an addition in the future to my page. I am taking a Historic Costume Design Research class. I will be taking the people through the development stages of my designs for "The Philadelphia Story"(1930's) and "The Importance of Being Ernest"(1890's). Near the end of the semester, I will be designing an Queen Elizabeth play. Remember, drawing is not speciality. But I am pretty good at sewing and research. All my drawings will be the latest in technological drawing with the computer. I will be taking the viewer through the research also. This class is a blast!!! Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:06:57 -0400 From: "Scott R. Dietrich" Subject: Theater Design Questionairre! Hello, Nicole Marie I am a sophomore at Bloomsburg University, I am in a theater design class and we must interview someone who uses any aspect of this seven step process that we were given in class: 1)Committed to project. 2)Constant analysis of script & Directors interpretation,Question? 3)Research 4)Incubation 5)Select Ideas 6)Implementation 7)Constant Evaluation. If you could help me out can you answer these few questions for me! 1)What is the largest project you ever worked on and how committed were you to the project? 2)When you first recieve a project how much does your first impression of the script factor into the final makeup of a char$ 3)Where or what is your most reliable source for research, have you ever used the internet for research? 4)How important is the time from your original idea to the final makeup of a characters? 5)Is Selecting your ideas or implementing them harder for you and why? 6)How often do you evaluate your work and does it help you grow as a makeup artist? Our Professor is a costume designer and she is intersted in input of various sources, Directors, costume/ wardrobe, makeup... If you could answer these questions or tell me a bit about the steps you use and or you experiences in your profession it would be greatly apriciated!! THANKYOU VERY MUCH! Scott Dietrich ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:43:54 -0400 From: Booboopies@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Past Patterns Saundra Altman and Past Patterns has moved to: Post Office Box 2446 217 South Fifth Street Richmond, IN 47374 Phone 317-962-3333 Fax 317-962-3773 e-mail PastPat@thepoint.net Karen Mullian booboopies@aol.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Sep 1996 to 18 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:33 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19649 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 06:07:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199609200407.AA19649@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4342; Fri, 20 Sep 96 00:03:30 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8998; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:03:29 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:03:25 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Sep 1996 to 19 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 9 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1940's Fashions (fwd) 2. 1860's vests 3. 1860s evening waistcoats 4. A More General Theater design Questionairre!!-for Designers,Directors, Actors...ALL! 5. Tuxedo beginnings 6. Tuxedo 7. Vests (2) 8. Vest Addendum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:01:59 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: 1940's Fashions (fwd) Try AMAZON DRY GOODS, 2218 E 11th St., Davenport, Iowa 52803-3760. (319)322-6800. Rhonda in Atlanta ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:47:15 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: 1860's vests Men in the 1860's didn't wear tuxedos, as of course it was not "invented" until the 1920's. A gentleman's evening waistcoat (worn with white tie and tails) wouldn't have a back at all (as no gentleman would remove his coat in public!). They go around the neck like a halter top and fasten at the back waist. I don't personally know about the fabric of the vest itself, I would assume a fine white wool or silk, possibly a silk. (I've seen "modern" white cotton ones, but don't think that can be correct) Some kind of silk for the lining as well. No doubt someone else will know for sure. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:07:00 UT >From: Rebecca Plummer >Subject: vest linings > >Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly what type of fabric is the >most appropriate/authentic to use as lining and as the back piece in a tuxedo >vest of the 1860's? I would like to verify my own information. > >Thanks. > >Rebecca > >------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:43:46 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: 1860s evening waistcoats I have a couple of mid 19th-century men's waistcoats but am too busy to dig them out right now. They definitely have backs, not halter tops. They are both silk brocade in front with small floral patterns. The backs are a matching color of unpatterned satin or plain-weave silk but I do not remember which. In the 1860s the convention of a white waistcoat for the most formal occasions and black for less formal evening occasions was already in use. The Victorians (at least all who could afford to) _were_ concerned about underclothes and other clothing that did not show under ordinary circumstances. They attached moral value to the quality and cleanliness of such clothes. For example, false shirt fronts and cuffs (with no real shirt attached) were available for clerks and others who had to keep up a middle-class appearance on a salary that didn't really support it. But such expedients were looked down on. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:30:27 -0400 From: "Scott R. Dietrich" Subject: A More General Theater design Questionairre!!-for Designers,Directors, Actors...ALL! Hello, I am a sophomore at Bloomsburg University, I am in a theater design class and we must interview someone who uses any aspect of this seven step process that we were given in class: 1)Committed to project. 2)Constant analysis of script & Directors interpretation,Question? 3)Research 4)Incubation 5)Select Ideas 6)Implementation 7)Constant Evaluation. If you could help me out can you answer these few questions for me! 1)What is the largest project you ever worked on and how committed were you to the project? 2)When you first recieve a project how much does your first impression of the script factor into the final production? 3)Where or what is your most reliable source for research, have you ever used the internet for research? 4)How important is the time from your original idea to when you must explain your idea to others? 5)Is Selecting your ideas or implementing them harder for you and why? 6)How often do you evaluate your work and does it help you grow? Our Professor is a costume designer and she is intersted in input of various sources, Directors, costume/ wardrobe, makeup... If you could answer these questions or tell me a bit about the steps you use and or you experiences in your profession it would be greatly apriciated!! THANKYOU VERY MUCH! Scott Dietrich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:47:55 -0400 From: Barbara J B Anderson Subject: Tuxedo beginnings Just a note.... The tuxedo jacket actually started in the 1880s as a less formal form of formal wear..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:09:04 -0700 From: Elaine Pedersen Subject: Tuxedo According to Payne (1965), "A new type of coat, a compromise in formality between the tail coat and suit coat, was introduced: the dinner jacket or tuxedo,"(pp. 469-470) in the 1880s. Payne, Blanche. (1965). History of Costume: From the Ancient Egyptians to the Twentieth Century. New York: Harper & Row. - - - - - - - - - - - Elaine L. Pedersen pedersee@ucs.orst.edu - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:08:38 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Vests Greetings all: I've checked the mid nineteenth century men's vests at the DAR Museum, where I work. The white and light colored vests were lined and backed with a plain weave white cotton, that may have once been glazed, but are dull now. Medium and dark colored vests have backs of plain or twill weave cottons of various shades of brown. This fabric is very similar to the linings of the mid nineteenth century women's bodices. The linings of the men's vests were either plain weave white cotton, or a plain or twill weave brown much like the linings. These patterns of fabric usage also occur in the extant vests at the University of Maryland Collection at College Park. I have not seen vests with backs of matching colors, unless you are counting brown vests. I'd be curious to find out what is in the collections of other museums and individuals, to see if this pattern continues... Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:30:02 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Vests M. Cricket Bauer wrote: > > Greetings all: > > I've checked the mid nineteenth century men's vests at the DAR Museum, > where I work. The white and light colored vests were lined and backed > with a plain weave white cotton, that may have once been glazed, but are > dull now. Medium and dark colored vests have backs of plain or twill > weave cottons of various shades of brown. This fabric is very similar > to the linings of the mid nineteenth century women's bodices. The > linings of the men's vests were either plain weave white cotton, or a > plain or twill weave brown much like the linings. These patterns of > fabric usage also occur in the extant vests at the University of > Maryland Collection at College Park. I have not seen vests with backs > of matching colors, unless you are counting brown vests. > > I'd be curious to find out what is in the collections of other museums > and individuals, to see if this pattern continues... > > Cricket Bauer In looking through drafting systems of the 1860s I do not find any vests (or waistcoats) that do NOT have backs to them. These systems are about the drafting and cutting of clothing and do not usually tell what type of material to use where. The 2 systems are Louis Devere THE HANDBOOK OF PRACTICAL CUTTING (1866) - an English system; and W.S. Salisbury's system of 1865 - an American system, which is contained in CIVIL WAR GENTLEMEN. The illustrations of the period show white vests/waistcoats being worn in the evening (mostly) and highly patterned and colorful vests/waistcoats being worn during the day. ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:00:06 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Vest Addendum I guess I should add that all the mid nineteenth century vests in the DAR Collection had full backs- no halter top to be found! Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Sep 1996 to 19 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:34 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25630 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:07:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199609210407.AA25630@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8719; Sat, 21 Sep 96 00:02:58 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8229; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:02:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:02:53 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Sep 1996 to 20 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 10 messages totalling 323 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dress Accessories 2. DAR museum? 3. Vests (2) 4. 1840s gown HELP!!! 5. 18th C. Corset with Flaps 6. China Buttons 7. Dating a Calash 8. Good sources for Linen 9. DAR Museum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:30:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Dress Accessories Apologies if this is a duplication, but I'm not sure if this got lost in some earlier confusion at this end... following a much earlier discussion about dress fastenings, this may be of interest to people on the list. Matt Champion produces a range of buttons, buckles and other dress accessories from the medieval period onwards, all fully provenanced. Much of what he produces is based on artifacts held in museums. He will also produce items to order. The quality is excellent and the service prompt and courteous. Matt can be contacted at: The Thatched Cottage Manor Farm Kerdiston Reepham Norfolk NR10 4RY England Telephone 01603 870308 Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:16:49 -0700 From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Re: DAR museum? M. Cricket Bauer posted some information about the DAR museum. Where is it? What else does the museum have? What are its visiting hours? etc... Thanks! Gail DeCamp gdecamp@best.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:23:16 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Vests Well, now I know a lot more about mid-19th century waistcoats! (I am heaping hot coals on my head for speaking without thinking) The part of my brain that was working was a) thinking more of 1880's/fin de siecle b) thinking of British historical dramas c)assuming evening wear meant only standard "upper-class" white tie and tails. But honestly, the only white waistcoats I've seen in vintage shops were the "halter" style. I had read a couple of times that the tuxedo was developed in the 1920's. Obviuosly, they weren't doing their homework either. Begging for mercy, Susan Fatemi Anyone want to know about Japanese formal wear, or 19th c. Central Asian costume?? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:46:14 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Vests > > In looking through drafting systems of the 1860s I do not find any vests > (or waistcoats) that do NOT have backs to them. These systems are about > the drafting and cutting of clothing and do not usually tell what type of > material to use where. The 2 systems are Louis Devere THE HANDBOOK OF > PRACTICAL CUTTING (1866) - an English system; and W.S. Salisbury's > system of 1865 - an American system, which is contained in CIVIL WAR > GENTLEMEN. The illustrations of the period show white vests/waistcoats > being worn in the evening (mostly) and highly patterned and colorful > vests/waistcoats being worn during the day. > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:31:32 -0400 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: 1840s gown HELP!!! I'm throwing myself on the mercy of the experts on this list!! I'm doing the Patterns of History 1840 gown, and it just doesn't make sense. It's a fan-front bodice, and the directions say to make a skin-tight mock-up of the lining first. The lining consists of the bodice front (piece #2), bodice side (piece #3) and bodice back (piece #4). My problems are as follows: 1) The shoulder of piece #2 is 11" long, and on piece #4 it's 9 1/4" long. If I match the notches, it doesn't help. As far as I can tell from the drawing on the envelope, and from photos in various books, the shoulder seam should be smooth, in other words, gathering the front shoulder to fit the back is not what I should do. But there's almost 2" too much fabric!! 2) If I match the notches to sew piece #3 to piece #4 (the side-back seam), I get piece #3 sticking into the armscye a good two inches, just sort of flopping around, not attached to anything. If I don't match teh notches, piece #3 extends longer at the waist than piece #4. 3) Here's the big problem: I've no clue how to join piece #3 and piece #2 (side-front seam). The appropriate edge of piece#3 is almost twice as long as the corresponding edge on piece#2. There is a dotted line piece #2, going from about the armhole to about center front, indicating where the edges of the gathered fan-front will reach. And in the construction of the outer fabric, it seems clear that the dress fabric piece #3 also gets sewn down along that dotted line. This implies that the lining version of piece #3 should be sewn there, as well, and not on the actual side edge of piece #2. But piece #3 is too long even for that interior seam line. Plus, if I sew it there, it leaves a rather big piece of piece #2 flapping in the breeze, not attached to anything. I'm talking a good two inches near the armhole, out to 6.5 inches at the waist. This strikes me as very odd. I haven't tried my mock-up on the woman I'm sewing this for, yet, but the pattern claims to be size 14, so I tried it on myself. There's no way it works. The back can't close, and the shoulder, which I know needs to be a drop shoulder for accuracy, is SO dropped that I literally couldn't move my arms. At all. That can't be right, either! It was more like a straight-jacket than a bodice. I called Amazon Drygoods' help line (the pattern was purchased from them) but they weren't much help. I'm at my wits' end. I hesitate to just drape this on my victim, as accuracy is important (this is for use in a museum setting). The instructions are so poorly written that I can't even figure out what the end result SHOULD be. Any words of advice would be incredibly welcome!! Astrida (aes@christa.unh.edu) ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:10:59 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: 18th C. Corset with Flaps Dear Joanne: Is it possible these could be nursing flaps? I know that it was described in the Workwoman s Guide how to add nursing flaps to corsets, chemises, and petticoats (the full-front kind we would think of as a full slip today). It sounds as if the flaps you describe were constructed something like these. I can t get to your site right now to look; my hubby downloads my mail at work on his laptop and I read it at home at night. I ll have him download the picture on Monday and see if my hunch is correct. Where did you find such an interesting piece? Is it for sale or just for us to salivate over? Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:11:39 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: China Buttons OK, guys, who out there knows a good source for china buttons, the kind Saundra refers to in some of her corset patterns as "pie-crust buttons"? These are small, 3/8- to =-inch white china buttons in the shape of a fluted pie dish, just like the name implies. Saundra says antique stores and vintage clothing dealers but I have had no luck there. I thought I had a lead with Parker Buttons in Pittsburgh, but after the initial reply, Penny Smith hasn t gotten back to me and my further inquiries have gone unanswered. She had sent me a xerox of a bunch of them mounted in a display and I had responded with a fervent "YES!! These are the ones I want!" and then Pouf! She disappeared. Anyone else care to help me? I really, really need these buttons for authentic WBTS (What we call ACW down South) men s drawers and corsets and stuff. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:13:56 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Dating a Calash Who can give me some input on as exact a date as is possible for a calash? The curator dates it at approx. 1780 - 1790. He wants to know what defining details he should look for to date it more exactly. He is a weapons person who happens to have this in his private collection; it has come down through his family. He has hand-written documentation about who owned it ever since 1832. The origin of the bonnet is Lynn, Massachusetts. His family has traditionally valued old things and it is in remarkably good condition. He has it mounted on a special stand in a display case that protects from light, dust, air, etc., and has owned it himself since 1927. Some basic details: green silk, about the color of canned cooked asparagus, 10 double-caned 1/8" wide outer ribs and 4 single-caned inner ones, plus the third one back goes in instead of out and is also double-caned. It is about 11" wide at its widest point, which is along the 8th rib. He thinks the ribs are of whalebone; they are light in color and have some grain to them. The back has a lovely 3 =" bow in the exact center. The bavolet also measures about 3 = inches. Along the front edge framing the face is a single-piped, 1 = inch ruffle. It is all hand-stitched with three different types of thread, all green. None of these seem to be repairs, as they are consistent throughout the seam. Some of the stitches are absolutely minuscule. Only the back is lined, in what looks like cheesecloth. The hems of the ruffles vary from <" to 3/8" wide and are somewhat uneven, but again the stitching itself is very good. I have a photograph I could send if anyone is interested. He specifically asked about the type of dye used as it seems to be a rather poor job; faint splotches of darker green in the pigment attest to slightly uneven original dyeing. (?) If it were water damage we would both think the splotches would be lighter, and have a definite edge to them and there is no trace of that sort of thing. Would knowing anything about the dye tell us more about an exact date, or is it the shape that is more important? The shape is somewhat different from the one in Linda Baumgarten s book on Colonial Wmsbg. clothing. It is taller than in is wide, and has something of a Conestoga wagon shape. There is no trace of a drawstring or pull cord! (I thought that was how they were raised or lowered, but I honestly couldn t find one). How long were calashes used? I know there are several people more knowledgeable than I about this; anyone want to have a go? Thanks! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:17:29 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Good sources for Linen Please let us know if you find one. Mine keep drying up. Right now I get some from James Burnley, Mercer, in Williamsburg, VA. (804) 253-1644 He has a few limited colors plus white and off-white in mid-to-heavyweight linens and is a very nice person to deal with. His prices are $7 and $8 /yd., 52" wide. Another fair-to-middling good source is MaryJo s Cloth Store in Gastonia, NC 1-800-MARYJOS they don t send swatches but will sell you a sixteenth of a yard piece. They have OK prices on chemise weight linens, 52" wide runs from $7 - $15/ yd. depending on quality. The cheaper stuff is better for period pieces to my eye because after it is washed it has a softer hand and feels nicer. The more expensive stuff doesn t wash as well. They used to sell end-of-bolt pieces from 3 to 5 yards in length bundled for $5 a yard but I haven t been able to find that for over a year. Warning when you call: these are old ladies who don t know a thing about re-enacting and may try to talk you into "that nice polyester/rayon linen-look stuff we have for $4.99 a yard and it washes and dries without wrinkling!" I know you won t be fooled. Anyway, if you find better sources than these PLEASE let me know as I really need to find somewhere I can buy 25 - 30 yard bolts for around $5.00/yard. I do have a wholesale number, if that helps. Thanks ahead of time and good luck! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:48:49 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: DAR Museum General information regarding the DAR and its headquarters in Washington, D.C. is given on its website at http://www.ultranet.com/~revolt/ The costume collection includes garments and accessories from 1750 to 1920, with some gaps in the chronology. Due to the nature of the DAR as an organization that encourages genealogical research, most of the objects in the collection have firm personal, or at least familial, attribution. Also since the organization is primarily white and middle class, the collection does not represent all ethnic and class groups in American history. The Museum is exploring ways to make the collection available to serious researchers. This fall, a slide set with script will be available, outlining the recent exhibtion, "American Women, American Fashion: Costume from the DAR Museum Collection." The DAR Museum also has a world renowned quilt and coverlet collection. For more information please call the Museum office at 202-879-3241. Cricket Bauer Associate Registrar/Assistant Curator ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Sep 1996 to 20 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:36 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA28626 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 22 Sep 1996 06:05:08 +0200 Message-Id: <199609220405.AA28626@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0991; Sun, 22 Sep 96 00:01:04 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9406; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:01:04 -0400 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:01:01 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Sep 1996 to 21 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 9 messages totalling 199 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. periodgarb 2. China Buttons 3. Linen Sources 4. Good sources for Linen (2) 5. seams in stockings (2) 6. Knitted Hood from Godey's 7. Knitted Hood ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:56:41 -0400 From: Saporling@AOL.COM Subject: periodgarb hello- I wish to suscribe to this service. I am looking into the garb and such for the Irish and English/Brittons of the 7th century through the 11th centruy. thanks- sap ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:58:44 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: China Buttons For china buttons, try Renaissance Buttons. They are wholesalers and deal in vintage and repro buttons. 312-883-9508 Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:12:45 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Linen Sources Susannah et al: For good linen at decent (not cheap) prices try Ulster Weaving on Madison Ave in NYC (I no longer have the phone #). They are direct importers and wholesalers. Their product is good, wears like iron. Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:35:49 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Re: Good sources for Linen > Please let us know if you find one. Mine keep drying up. Right now I Guys, I've been e-mailing back and forth with this guy in Lithuania, of all places, who's setting up a web site for a linen manufacturer. They manufacture all weights, from fine veiling to canvas-like, and in a wide variety of colors, and sell finished bedsheets and tableclothes as well. The guy said he'd check on the price for me, but even with international shipping costs he thought it'd be a lot cheaper than the stuff found over here. I'll keep you all posted, and post the web site URL when it appears. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:10:16 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: seams in stockings Hi all, I've got a friend in need of a bit of help - She's involved with a play: late 30s or early 40s (pre WWII), studio of American radio show. Should the women have stockings with seams or not? What do you think? Thanks in advance, Su in Plymouth MA _ sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:00:36 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Knitted Hood from Godey's I have a book called "Dressing Dolls in Nineteenth Century Fashions" by = Albina Bailey. On page 86 there is a picture of a woman's face, in = profile to the right, wearing a knitted hood with swan's down border = along the face, ending in two large tassels about 10" down from her = chin.=20 I desperately want to find the pattern for this hood (if it exists). = This picture is either from Godey's Lady's book 1859 or 1865 OR from = Peterson's Magazine 1860, 1864 OR Delineator 1876. Does anyone have any of these magazines or has anyone seen this = particular picture of this hood? I realize, of course, that the book may only have the picture and not = the instructions for making it, but I am taking the chance that it = might. All help appreciated!! Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:33:52 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: seams in stockings > >She's involved with a play: late 30s or early 40s (pre WWII), studio of >American radio show. Should the women have stockings with seams or not? What >do you think? > I am researching costumes for a 1930's play...After looking through countless magazines for the period, I have not seen seams in the stockings. But I have not researched past 1939. I just checked a Miller & Rhoads hosiery ad (c. 1935) which I found fishnet stockings of all things. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:02:57 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Knitted Hood The knitted hood with swansdown that you refer to can be found on page 305 of Peterson's Volume 45, April 1864. Variations of this hood, whether in wool cloth, knitted, netted, or silk, appear in both Godey's and Peterson's, several each year. I obtained copies off of microfilm at a University Library- perhaps one in your area has them as well. Large city librarys are also likely to have it. Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:15:48 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Good sources for Linen >I've been e-mailing back and forth with this guy in Lithuania, of all >places, who's setting up a web site for a linen manufacturer. They >manufacture all weights, from fine veiling to canvas-like, and in a wide >variety of colors, and sell finished bedsheets and tableclothes as well. >The guy said he'd check on the price for me, but even with international >shipping costs he thought it'd be a lot cheaper than the stuff found over >here. When I was in Czechoslavakia a few years ago in November/early December, the US dollar was worth 20 of theirs, so anything manufactured there and is not a luxury item is much less expensive. I imagine its similar in Lithuania. The interesting thing is that in their fabric stores they carried nothing that wasn't polyester. It turns out that due to the lack of washers and dryers there (which is also true in Germany and much of Europe) the poly fabrics are much easier to care for. Especially during the cooler months or when people live in apartments, all washing and drying is done in their bathtub/bathrooms. After driving all over the city to find the *only* laundromat in Vienna which cost about $5 US for a wash and dry, and finding that even my cotton undies were not drying for several days, I could really empathize. My husband and I stopped in a smallish town in Germany and thought to put our clothes in the local commercial cleaners/laundry. We would have had to wait 3 days for a load of laundry. It seems that even the commercial laundry did not have a dryer. It would be very cool to get a source for true handkerchief linen or veiling. I haven't found one ever and have been looking for about 10 years! Looking forward to the web page. Julie Adams Julie Adams Savaskan Anatolians http://www.electriciti.com/~savaskan/homepage.html Drache - 5 yr old ASD dog Kirsche - 4.5 yr old ASD bitch Jon - 2 1/2 yr old son Liebshon - housecat (Kirsche is the better mouser...) and 3 little hens... and a few goats soon.... ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Sep 1996 to 21 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:36 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA01885 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:05:02 +0200 Message-Id: <199609230405.AA01885@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3163; Mon, 23 Sep 96 00:00:50 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0776; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:00:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:00:48 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Sep 1996 to 22 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 210 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Good sources for linen 2. Higher backed corset???? 3. Renaissance beads 4. Knitted Hood 5. seams in stockings (3) 6. Knitted Hood from Godey's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:27:23 +2 From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Subject: Re: Good sources for linen > It turns out that due to the lack of washers and dryers > there (which is also true in Germany and much of Europe) > the poly fabrics are much easier to care for. Especially > during the cooler months or when people live in apartments, > all washing and drying is done in their bathtub/bathrooms. > After driving all over the city to find the *only* > laundromat in Vienna which cost about $5 US for a wash and > dry, and finding that even my cotton undies were not drying > for several days, I could really empathize. In Scandinavia and I think in most of the Western Europe people tend to have their own washing machines, though dryers are less common. Laundromats are common in places where students live and they are either completely free for them (included in rent) or quite expensive to use. Most people who have their own washing machines just wash their chothes and hang them out (in summer) or into the bathroom to dry. In an apartment with central heating (at least in Scandinavia practically all apartment have very good heating, I haven't travelled widely enough to speak about rest of the Western Europe) the laundry will be dry in 12 to 24h hours. (And needless to say: At least in Finland there is very wide selection of fabrics to choose from (I'm still searching for coutil, though).) Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------------* lynoure@clinet.fi * -----------------------------------*er4055@bessel.tutech.fi* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:09:56 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Higher backed corset???? Hello, my friends, I was wondering if any 15th or 16th century corset had a full or high back? (ex the 18th's) I have back problems and a corset like this would help when wearing my costumes. Thank you Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:53:12 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Renaissance beads >What are chevron whiteheart and other trade beads? > >Mazelle Neal Sorry for not being more clear! 8-} They're all glass beads produced by Europe (usually Czechoslovakia) for trade with American Indians and in Africa. Chevron beads are usually cobalt blue (sometimes green or rarely other colors) that are formed from concentric layers of colored glass. The most common chevrons are blue, opaque white, and brick red. These come in sizes from about 1/4" all the way up to 2" in length (the larger ones are "melon" shaped). Whitehearts are any colored glass bead, usually transparent in outer color, with a lining or "heart" of opaque white glass where the hole is. They are usually smaller beads, ranging in size from the tiniest seed bead (like 16 or something ridiculous) to about 1/4". These are most commonly true, dark red, rather like a pomegranite seed in color. Trade beads are any glass beads that are created for use in trade, usually with the aforementioned peoples. Even the antique ones are surprisingly inexpensive, although the chevrons can be quite pricey. They are currently still being made, but aside from the chevrons and white hearts, I'm not sure which kinds are period to the renaissance. There is a great book out there that's like $60 or something on the history of beads - I highly recommend it if you're interested in the topic and have the cash! 8-) Hope this additional info helps. (P.S.... just found it in a subsequent H-Costume digest... it's the "History of Beads" that Suzanne mentioned... thanks!) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:27:32 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Knitted Hood M. Cricket Bauer wrote: > > The knitted hood with swansdown that you refer to can be found on page > 305 of Peterson's Volume 45, April 1864. Variations of this hood, > whether in wool cloth, knitted, netted, or silk, appear in both Godey's > and Peterson's, several each year. > > I obtained copies off of microfilm at a University Library- perhaps one > in your area has them as well. Large city librarys are also likely to > have it. > > Cricket Bauer I thought that sounded familiar! This same item KNITTED HOOD WITH SWAN'S DOWN BORDER by Mrs. Jane Weaver was in Peterson's Magazine as stated above. We have reprinted this pattern and ilustration in its original on page 271 of CIVIL WAR LADIES. This book is primary source material from Peterson's 1861 & 1864. It can be obtained from Fred Struthers at fsbks@mcn.org priced at $24.95 + 2.50 shipping ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 15:53:02 -0500 From: "Rachel E. Mast" Subject: Re: seams in stockings On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Susan Carter wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got a friend in need of a bit of help - > > She's involved with a play: late 30s or early 40s (pre WWII), studio of > American radio show. Should the women have stockings with seams or not? What > do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Su in Plymouth MA > _ > sucarter@msn.com > In all the pitures I've seen they do have seams, some of these pictures were of family members so I assume that any one wore them. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 15:32:09 -0700 From: Alikhat Subject: Re: seams in stockings At 11:10 PM 9/21/96 UT, you wrote: >I've got a friend in need of a bit of help - >She's involved with a play: late 30s or early 40s (pre WWII), studio of >American radio show. Should the women have stockings with seams or not? What >do you think? Yes, the women *definately* need stockings with the seams! There was no other way to manufacture them at the time. In fact, had the play in question taken place *during* the war, the women would have in all likelyhood painted their legs a darker tan colour and drawn a seamline down the back to give the illusion of stockings. ( Nylon being reserved exclusively for military use ) Hope this helps, Alikhat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:21:05 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: seams in stockings Seams, absolutely. My mother told tales of drawing "seams" on with eyebrow pencil when she couldn't afford to buy stockings ... but wasn't properly dressed without them. Jo Anne P.S. Seamless stockings came in the fifties to my knowledge -- anyone know if I was late on that bandwagon? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:21:12 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Knitted Hood from Godey's Can't be sure of the identity, but I have 1880s knitting directions (in silk) for something that sounds similar. e-mail me if you want to follow it up. Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Sep 1996 to 22 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:37 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08321 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:07:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199609240407.AA08321@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7345; Tue, 24 Sep 96 00:02:55 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7407; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:02:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Sep 1996 to 23 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 229 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Linen Suppliers 2. seams in stockings (3) 3. Seamless Stockings 4. Fwd: hellow! 5. hellow! (3) 6. Higher backed corset???? 7. Seams in Stockings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:47:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Linen Suppliers I don't know if I've missed something, but someone mentioned they knew of a linen supplier in Lithuania. Could I have details? Although I have some suppliers in the UK it sounds as if good linen is as awkward to find in the US as it is here. Many thanks, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:05:13 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: seams in stockings Yes, stockings had seams in them up into the 1960s. Seamless stockings were introduced in the '50s (if I recall correctly), But my local hometown department store in suburban LA was still selling then in 1968 when I worked there. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:32:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Seamless Stockings Of course seams were the only method throughout the war years, hence the high sales of gravy browning for staining the legs and eyebrow pencils for drawing on the lines. I understand that little brothers were quite useful for this. There are, I'm sure, still old haberdashers selling seamed stockings in tucked away corners! Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:56:49 -0400 From: grm@CYRUS.ANDREW.CMU.EDU Subject: Fwd: hellow! -------- Forwarded Message -------- Return-Path: fwhd4139@mb.infoweb.or.jp Received: from po4.andrew.cmu.edu (PO4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.104]) by cyrus.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16513 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by po4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03065 for grm@cyrus.andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:36:20 -0400 Received: via switchmail for h-costume-request+@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mb002.infoweb.or.jp (mb002.infoweb.or.jp [202.248.0.68]) by po4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03054 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:36:13 -0400 Received: from fwhb4139 by mb002.infoweb.or.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.4W3-08/29/96) id VAA25708; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:36:09 +0900 Message-ID: <3242819E.6231@mb.infoweb.or.jp> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:35:58 +0900 From: Tetsuya Takahashi X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 [ja] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: hellow! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hellow! My name is Tetsuya Takahashi from Japan. I have looked for a friend who like a cloak. I like a long-black-cloak.I like felling what I wrap my body by a cloak that have length enough to train on a floor. So I'm looking for a friend who can discuss about like that.Please submit mailing list. -----End Of Forwarded Message ----- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:41 -0400 From: sulcus Subject: Re: hellow! Does anyone have a good definition of what constitued "small clothes" in the 18th and 19th Century contexts? Thanks! Bob Lawler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:56:24 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: hellow! Breeches, 1770. See:The Handbook of English Costume in the Eighteenth C. C. Millet Cunningham On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, sulcus wrote: > Does anyone have a good definition of what constitued "small clothes" in > the 18th and 19th Century contexts? > > Thanks! > > Bob Lawler > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:25:38 -0400 From: Bruce McNeal Subject: Re: hellow! At 01:04 PM 9/23/96 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have a good definition of what constitued "small clothes" in >the 18th and 19th Century contexts? > >Thanks! > >Bob Lawler > >"Small clothes" are breeches and waistcoat. Of course, you also wore a shirt, neckstock, hose and shoes. "Small clothes" were considered the minimum that a gentleman could wear in public and be decent. Leave off the waistcoat and you were in your "underclothes". Still Rave'n..... Bruce McNeal Quartermaster 1st Battn. Md. Loyalists bmcneal@erols.com (h) bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov (w) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:29:18 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? At 01:09 PM 9/22/96 -0400, SyRilla@AOL.COM wrote: >Hello, my friends, >I was wondering if any 15th or 16th century corset had a full or high back? >(ex the 18th's) I have back problems and a corset like this would help= when >wearing my costumes. >Thank you >Kimberly > >SyRilla@aol.com > >Hi, my Elizabethan corset pattern goes all the way to the top of my shoulder blades, and is incredibly comfortable. I think that as a general fule corset heights are the same as the back height of the garment with which they are to be worn. My pattern came from a book called Period Costume for Stage and Screen, by Jean Hunnisett, and covers periods from 1500 to 1800, with all the corresponding corset patterns.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\= =AF\=3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ \| || T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D= // email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:07:03 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: seams in stockings Not only did stockings have seams in them up to and during the 1950's, but they weren't made of nylon in the 1930's. What were they made of, you ask? According to my mother, who worked in NY City in the late 1930's, stockings were made from one of three fibers: silk, cotton, or wool. Silk was the sheerest, but also the most expensive. Cotton stockings were more practical, but not nearly as glamorous. So most young women had a single pair of silk stockings that they saved for going out in the evening and wore the cotton stockings to work in the office. Cotton stockings can still be purchased in this country if you want to go with that look. The place to get them - at least from my limited knowledge - is the Vermont Country Store. Last winter I got their catalogue, but didn't order anything. Unfortunately I don't have better contact information than that. Also, I remember asking my mother why she didn't like stockings with seams in them. I thought they were nifty looking. She complained about how difficult it was to get the seams straight, and how awful it looked if the seams were crooked. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:37:46 -0500 From: Ed Walton Subject: Re: seams in stockings >Not only did stockings have seams in them up to and during the 1950's, but >they weren't made of nylon in the 1930's. Almost correct. Stockings were the first nylon product, introduced in 1938. Silk and nylon were both strategic materials and were diverted to parachutes in early 1942 after America's entry into the war. Nylon stockings made a civilian comeback in late 1944. I like the seams and wish they would come back. Very sexy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:02:45 -0400 From: Andy Songal Subject: Seams in Stockings Stockings made out of rayon was the choice most women wore who could not afford silk stockings. Rayon was the "artificial silk" of its day. Kathy ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Sep 1996 to 23 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:38 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA15115 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 Sep 1996 06:07:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199609250407.AA15115@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1572; Wed, 25 Sep 96 00:02:50 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6129; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:02:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:02:45 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 356 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. seams in stockings (6) 2. Dating a Calash 3. Seams in stockings (2) 4. hellow! 5. Straight seamed stockings 6. Good sources for Linen 7. Silk stockings (2) 8. cotton stockings (2) 9. Mille fleur beads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:32:39 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: seams in stockings Ed Walton wrote: >I like the seams and wish they would come back. Very sexy. For those who are interested De'An Drew Designs a lingerie company sells seamed nylons in two styles, Cuban heels & French heels, popular in the decades before seamless stocking were available. The address is: De'An Designs 8884 Warner Ave. Suite 172 Fountain Valley, CA 92708 fax: 714-969-2586 Enjoy! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:06:33 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Dating a Calash Dale Loberger wrote: >Who can give me some input on as exact a date as is possible for a calash? >The curator dates it at approx. 1780 - 1790... _Costume in Detail_ by Nancy Bradford gives two date ranges for calashes. The first, 1770-1790 and the second, 1820-1839. The description you gave sounds more like the earlier version shown in the book, including the bow at the back, the longer curtain, & most importantly, shape, much taller than wide. The later version has a ruffle around the front and doesn't have any ribbons to pull the calash open as did the earlier style. The later one is much lower and rounder shaped though. >...green silk, about the color of canned cooked asparagus For what it's worth, green seems to have been extremely popular for calashes, at least based on surviving examples. The only ones I've seen or heard of that weren't green are the two described in Costume in Detail which were both black. >He thinks the ribs are of whalebone; they are light in color and have some >grain to them. Unless I'm mistaken (a distinct possibility), whalebone is black. Calashes, drawn bonnets, uglies, etc. usually use cane with milliners wire edging to create and hold the shape. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:35:22 +0100 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: seams in stockings On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Ed Walton wrote: > I like the seams and wish they would come back. Very sexy. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --Ed Walton > "Lost Battalions" > Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms > http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 > Yes, men always like inconvenient and uncomfortable clothing - on women - and always for the same reason: it turns them on. You should be forced into continually worrying about whether your seams are straight before wanting them back for others to wear. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:21:29 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Seams in stockings Kathy posted: >Stockings made out of rayon was the choice most women wore who could not >afford silk stockings. Rayon was the "artificial silk" of its day. While rayon was indeed the artificial silk of the day, it certainly was not less expensive. In fact, it was quite vogue for the 'rich' to wear rayon instead of silk. It was, afterall, still a new technology to create rayon, and therefore production costs were quite high. As sources of inexpensive silk dried up, and mills producing rayon increased, the cost of rayon plummeted, so that indeed, today, it is the inexpensive substitute for silk. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering: Canada's Online Literary 'Zine Summer Issue now available! http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:58:01 +0000 From: TC Carstensen Subject: Re: seams in stockings Carole Newson-Smith said: > Also, I remember asking my mother why she didn't like stockings > with seams in them. I thought they were nifty looking. She complained > about how difficult it was to get the seams straight, > and how awful it looked if the seams were crooked. I used to have a few pairs that I'd gotten from the JC Penney's catalog (unfortunately, they don't still carry them) a few years ago. I always had a devil of a time getting the darn seams straight. It's reassuring to know that it wasn't just me. I figured that there must be some trick to it that I didn't know about. TC Carstensen, who is unwise in the way of stockings ;) eccentri@sprynet.com *** http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/eccentri/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:39:04 -0600 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: hellow! There is a book put out by Dover Publications called "The History of Underclothes" that covers everything up to WWII in this area. Morgan On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, sulcus wrote: > Does anyone have a good definition of what constitued "small clothes" in > the 18th and 19th Century contexts? > > Thanks! > > Bob Lawler > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:07:18 -0500 From: Ed Walton Subject: Re: seams in stockings >You should be forced >into continually worrying about whether your seams are straight before >wanting them back for others to wear. Seams and creases are concerns for the men, too; right before inspection! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:57:41 -0500 From: Beth Martino Subject: Straight seamed stockings Well, IS there a trick to keeping them straight? I think that I have one suggestion. There is a roll-on "adhesive" that women can use to keep ballgown straps in place (I don't remember the brand) and I was wondering if it would be an effective and convenient way to deal with inconveniently wandering seams. Has anyone tried it? Just a thought. Beth Martino >>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<< "The cure for anything is salt water ~ sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen >>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<<::>>:<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:14:03 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Re: Good sources for Linen Julie Adams wrote: > It would be very cool to get a source for true handkerchief linen or > veiling. I haven't found one ever and have been looking for about 10 years! Someone mentioned the Ulster Weaving Co. with offices in New York.Phone (212)684-5534. I got the most beautiful handkerchief linen I have seen anywhere from them. It was the most even and the finest count. They did have a minimum yardage of 10 yards @ 12.25 a yard. (This was for my wedding two years ago.) The stuff I got was called 1300C.4040" White Cambric Linen.They have all kinds of other versions as well. Incidently, all of the other handkerchief linen I have found runs in the $24. range for the really delicate stuff. Veda Crewe Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:18:45 -0500 From: Deb Subject: Re: seams in stockings >Ed Walton wrote: >>I like the seams and wish they would come back. Very sexy. >> > De'An Designs > 8884 Warner Ave. Suite 172 > Fountain Valley, CA 92708 > fax: 714-969-2586 > >Glenna Jo Christen >gwjchris@rust.net Fredericks of Hollywood used to carry them too, and probably still does. One might also check a place more readily available like Victoria's Secret. Seamed stockings aren't totally gone. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:44:01 -0400 From: Andy Songal Subject: Seams in stockings Rayon indeed was the less expensive substitute for silk stockings in the 1920s. In the Bellas Hess & Co catalog of Spring and Summer 1927 stockings sold for the following prices: $1.98 pair for full fashioned thread silk from top to toe; 79 cents pair for silk and rayon combined; and 49 cents a pair for lustrous rayon top to toe. Rayon has always been the least expensive in price and for good reason--appearance. Rayon stockings did not compare in appearance to silk stockings--nylon came closer and that is why so many people wanted nylon stockings. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:07:32 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Silk stockings Does anybody know of a good source for sheer or at least lightweight silk stockings? Preferably with some styles that have fancy openwork or embroidered designs, as well was plain styles? I have some heavy silk socks that are OK for Victorian day wear from the Winter Silks catalog (WinterSilks is at 2700 Laura Ln., PO Box 620130, Middleton, WI 3562-0130, (800) 621-3229). But I have not found sheer stockings. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:57:58 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: cotton stockings Anyone interested in cotton stockings can find them almost anywhere. If you don't want ones with back seams, you can buy them at most women's clothing stores for about $7. Usually they're sold as "tights," not "stockings," but they're different from the kind of tights you wear for dance or exercise classes. They're much more comfortable than Nylons and they almost never run, but they're a bit thick for summer wear. You can get cotton/Lycra blends, which are thinner and silkier. They don't wear as well and they tend to make your feet sweat (like Nylons). For re-enactments, I have had great luck buying long cotton stockings (socks, really) from people who sell gear for muzzle loading groups. They have to be gartered, but they're comfortable and they feel a lot more "real" than ankle socks or tights, which I used to wear (forgive me!). Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:40:56 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: cotton stockings I've purchased cotton stockings from the Vermont Country Store. They are flesh colored opaque cotton and very comfortable. They can be dyed for historic reenactment purposes and are cheaper, and slightly more shaped to the leg, than other "cotton stockings" I've purchased at 18th and 19th century reenactment venues. They probably wouldn't serve well for a 1930's play unless the character is a country person of modest garb. Marsha >Cotton stockings can still be purchased in this country if you want to go >with that look. The place to get them - at least from my limited >knowledge - is the Vermont Country Store. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:53:37 -0400 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Mille fleur beads Can anyone tell me more about these beads from the Italian Renaissance? Were they used as jewelry (alone or strung together)? Were they sewn on garb as trim? I haven't seen any in period paintings. What sort of people wore them? Middle class? Thanks Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:56:12 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Silk stockings Frances Grimble wrote: > Does anybody know of a good source for sheer or at least lightweight > silk stockings? De'An Designs for which I gave the address for as a source for seamed nylons also carries sheer silk stockings. I don't know if they have patterned silk stockings but they carry a variety of patterned nylon styles as well as fishnet stockings. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:14:15 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: seams in stockings In a message dated 96-09-23 20:15:16 EDT, carole_newson-smith@NET.COM (Carole Newson-Smith) writes: >Also, I remember asking my mother why she didn't like stockings with seams in >them. I thought they were nifty looking. She complained about how difficult >it was to get the seams straight, >and how awful it looked if the seams were crooked. And _I_ remember, when seamless ones came in, my mother asking why I didn't like them. I told her that if I was going to go to the trouble of wearing stockings (we're talking garters and everything here, remember!) I wanted people to know it! Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:40 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA22108 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:08:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199609260408.AA22108@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9834; Thu, 26 Sep 96 00:03:54 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2769; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 00:03:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 00:01:14 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 30 messages totalling 1242 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. seams in stockings (3) 2. Higher backed corset???? 3. Various 4. Standards in group (7) 5. whalebone (3) 6. cable ties 7. The current charter 8. seams in stockings N 9. Rocking Horse Farm (2) 10. Crepe paper for dresses? (2) 11. Where to find patterns? (4) 12. linen suppliers 13. Crepe Paper Dresses 14. Standards 15. larger-sized ladies' shoes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:50:05 +1000 From: Sue Walker Subject: Re: seams in stockings >Yes, stockings had seams in them up into the 1960s. Seamless stockings were >introduced in the '50s (if I recall correctly), But my local hometown >department store in suburban LA was still selling then in 1968 when I worked >there. Seamed stockings are still sold. I bought several pair about three years ago. Check out major department stores and go through the stockings section (don't know what you have there but two of the major Australian stores had them in stock when I last bought them). Can't remember the brand name but I hope this helps. Sue Walker Mark Dancer & NetMark Consultancies Pty. Ltd. Sue Walker. mdancer@thehub.com.au Can your PC boot from a CD-ROM? Macintosh can. These comments and questions are solely my doing. My company, colleagues, family, neighbors, gender, sex, race, creed, national origin, medieval reenactment group... bear no responsibility for the accuracy thereof. Further, I apologize in advance and retract any part of this email that in any way offends anyone, anyone's sensibilities, ancestors, cars, favorite ice cream, or points of view. This communique may add to your store of knowledge. It may not. Proceed at your own risk. (Slightly modified from an original by Ed Long). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:32:09 +1000 From: Melissa Hicks Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? Greetings all, I have just finished making the Tudor corset from the same Hunnisett book. I much prefer this corset as not only does it keep in my "meathooks" (I am fairly large) but it also does appear to help my back and I tend to sit and stand with a straighter posture. This last one is not FORCED upon my ody, it just seems the most comfortable for my body to be while in the corset. I don't feel restricted at all, which is good. I was initially very worried about the boning coming up over the shoulder blades, but most of the time I do not know it is there. Mind you, I am the sort of masochistic person who dances renaissance country dances in full high Tudor. Mel - from Canberra. At 05:29 PM 23/09/96 -0600, Andrew Tarrant wrote: >At 01:09 PM 9/22/96 -0400, SyRilla@AOL.COM wrote: >>Hello, my friends, >>I was wondering if any 15th or 16th century corset had a full or high= back? >>(ex the 18th's) I have back problems and a corset like this would help= when >>wearing my costumes. >>Thank you >>Kimberly >> >>SyRilla@aol.com >> >>Hi, my Elizabethan corset pattern goes all the way to the top of my >shoulder blades, and is incredibly comfortable. I think that as a general >fule corset heights are the same as the back height of the garment with >which they are to be worn. My pattern came from a book called Period >Costume for Stage and Screen, by Jean Hunnisett, and covers periods from >1500 to 1800, with all the corresponding corset patterns.=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ >Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\= =AF\=3D=3D\\ >Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || >P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ >\| || >T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D= // >email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D '-------------' > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:44:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various Someone asked me for the details of the copper lace quote from 1587. I can't find the copy, so I'm afraid everyone is being honoured! Any way, all the following information is from 'The Reckoning' by Charles Nicholl, pub Jonathan Cape 1992 0-224-03100-7. On p200 he quotes Nashe (a contemporary of Marlowe's) from Thomas Nashe : Works, (ed RB McKerrow and FP Wilson, 5 vols, Oxford 1958), as saying that Edward Alleyn in the title role of Tamburlaine the Great (by Marlow) at the first performance of the play by the Lord Admiral's troupe, wore a 'coat with copper lace' and 'breeches of crimson velvet'. The coat and breeches are mentioned in an inventory of play-goods of 1598. Now clothes such as these were probably bought at the second-hand clothes market in London (especially the velvet breeches - they would be silk velvet). Is it possible that when an expensive coat was sold to the second-hand market the expensive decorations (gold braid/lace) was removed to be reused, and cheaper decorations like copper lace used to replace them? Being used by an actor certainly puts copper lace into a specific social context. Whalebone - the only whalebone I've seen was in a museum case in Whitby, which was a dark brown. Gretchen - thanks very much for the article, and I have the one on buttons ready to go to you - but I'm afraid I couldn't read your address - could you send it direct? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:37:24 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: seams in stockings In message dstein@SAS.AC.UK writes: > On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Ed Walton wrote: > > I like the seams and wish they would come back. Very sexy. > > > Yes, men always like inconvenient and uncomfortable clothing - on women - > and always for the same reason: it turns them on. You should be forced > into continually worrying about whether your seams are straight before > wanting them back for others to wear. Why assume he wanted *others* to wear them? It's possible he might want to wear them *himself*...o-) < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:45:22 -0400 From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Standards in group I and a bunch of friends of mine in the SCA are thinking of starting a household in the SCA which would encourage authenticity. I have a number of questions for the group on matters that we would like to resolve *before* we start. 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? 2. Can standards increase in time? 3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and oldtimers? 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow group standards? I am sure that there are other questions, but this should get things started. Thank you all for your help. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:15:41 -0400 From: Gina Balestracci Subject: whalebone Re: the Calash discussion and Caroline Yeldham's recent posting on various interesting matters: There are two distinct types of "whalebone." Actual whale bone is bone colored and quite rigid (as one would expect from bone). This, to my knowledge, wasn't used for "boning." The Whaling Museum in New Bedford, Mass., has many wonderful household and decorative items made from bone: yarn swifts, knitting needles, crochet hooks, tatting shuttles, cribbage boards, boxes, and quite a few very nice pie crimpers (among many other artifacts). The type of "whalebone" that was used for stiffening is actually baleen. It is from the mouths of whales (except sperm whales and a couple of other smaller species that have teeth). Most whales are plankton eaters, and the baleen would strain the nearly microscopic creatures so the whales could feed without choking on big bits. The sheets of baleen are, if memory serves, up to about 8 inches wide and several feet long. They have a fringe on one side that does most of the straining. When dried, this material is flexible, and thus suitable for stays, busks, and other such uses. I grew up in New Bedford, and it used to be that you had to learn all this in school. This just came to me--A year or so ago, maybe more, there was a large discussion here of appropriate boning materials for corsets. This is related. When my sister had her baby, I made her one of those cute little Moses baskets, but I wanted a retractible hood--like a baby carriage or, indeed, a calash. Since I procrastinated beyond belief in making it, and none of the boning from the fabric store was strong enough to hold up the weight of a double layer of chintz, many layers of plastic needlepoint canvas didn't work, and any I couldn't get any reeding on short notice, I needed plan D or so. There was some construction going on in my building at work, and I had noticed some very large cable ties. The useable bits of these were about 3/8 inch wide, 1/8 inch thick, and 20 inches long, with one tapered end. When you cut off the doo-dad that actually creates the cable tie, it files down very nicely. They worked very nicely for that particular application. They might not work quite so well in an application where body heat is involved. I think they're made out of nylon. Gina balestracc@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:05:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: whalebone There is an artificial whaleboning available in Germany. It isn't available in Britain and doesn't seem to be available in other European countries so I suppose it isn't available in America or people wouldn't need to discuss inferior alternatives. It resembles real whaleboning almost exactly, but is white, plasticky. I don't know what it's made of, nylon or something. Please believe me that this isn't any of the lesser alternatives we've all used. It comes in a continuous length, can be cut with a hack saw or equivalent. The ends need sanding/filing to protect the wearer. In appearance it is like a solid, moulded piece of plastic about a quarter of an inch by a third in cross section. It works brilliantly - far better than other substitutes. Unfortunately, I'm at work and can't remember the address for the supplier so I'll forward it tomorrow but i does have to be bought in quantities which whould make up 2-3 corsets, as far as I can remember. Regards, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- From: Gina Balestracci To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: whalebone Date: 25 September 1996 10:15 Re: the Calash discussion and Caroline Yeldham's recent posting on various interesting matters: There are two distinct types of "whalebone." Actual whale bone is bone colored and quite rigid (as one would expect from bone). This, to my knowledge, wasn't used for "boning." The Whaling Museum in New Bedford, Mass., has many wonderful household and decorative items made from bone: yarn swifts, knitting needles, crochet hooks, tatting shuttles, cribbage boards, boxes, and quite a few very nice pie crimpers (among many other artifacts). The type of "whalebone" that was used for stiffening is actually baleen. It is from the mouths of whales (except sperm whales and a couple of other smaller species that have teeth). Most whales are plankton eaters, and the baleen would strain the nearly microscopic creatures so the whales could feed without choking on big bits. The sheets of baleen are, if memory serves, up to about 8 inches wide and several feet long. They have a fringe on one side that does most of the straining. When dried, this material is flexible, and thus suitable for stays, busks, and other such uses. I grew up in New Bedford, and it used to be that you had to learn all this in school. This just came to me--A year or so ago, maybe more, there was a large discussion here of appropriate boning materials for corsets. This is related. When my sister had her baby, I made her one of those cute little Moses baskets, but I wanted a retractible hood--like a baby carriage or, indeed, a calash. Since I procrastinated beyond belief in making it, and none of the boning from the fabric store was strong enough to hold up the weight of a double layer of chintz, many layers of plastic needlepoint canvas didn't work, and any I couldn't get any reeding on short notice, I needed plan D or so. There was some construction going on in my building at work, and I had noticed some very large cable ties. The useable bits of these were about 3/8 inch wide, 1/8 inch thick, and 20 inches long, with one tapered end. When you cut off the doo-dad that actually creates the cable tie, it files down very nicely. They worked very nicely for that particular application. They might not work quite so well in an application where body heat is involved. I think they're made out of nylon. Gina balestracc@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:22:12 -0500 From: Hollie Hoffman Subject: Re: cable ties At 10:15 9-25-96 -0400, Gina Balestracci wrote: There was >some construction going on in my building at work, and I had noticed some very >large cable ties. The useable bits of these were about 3/8 inch wide, 1/8 inch >thick, and 20 inches long, with one tapered end. When you cut off the doo-dad >that actually creates the cable tie, it files down very nicely. They worked >very nicely for that particular application. They might not work quite so well >in an application where body heat is involved. I think they're made out of >nylon. Actually, a friend of mine who's husband is a prison guard used the size of cable ties used for riot cuffs to bone a bodice. They were about the right length and a little stiffer and stronger that the plastic boning sold in fabric stores. As far as I know, they worked just fine. Hollie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:32:00 -0500 From: "Davis, Charles E." Subject: Re: Standards in group There are several models that your household could follow. The Civil War groups that I know of require/allow new members up to 2 years to get their "kit" ready before public performances. They do make it known that it is a requirement to be authentic in just about everything. (and for them, being closer to the time they portray, and with more merchants doing authentic pieces/clothes, it can come down to just a matter of money). I personally fall on the "Lead by example model." Everyone is expected to try to attain a level of authenticity in all of their accouterments. You could set levels for the new/oldtimers to shoot for, but be forgiving. Just the effort to reach these levels will increase the authenticity of your household. Charles Davis aka Cadwallon y' Rhudd in the SCA ---------- From: Judy Gerjuoy To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Standards in group Date: Wednesday, September 25, 1996 7:45AM I and a bunch of friends of mine in the SCA are thinking of starting a household in the SCA which would encourage authenticity. I have a number of questions for the group on matters that we would like to resolve *before* we start. 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? 2. Can standards increase in time? 3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and oldtimers? 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow group standards? I am sure that there are other questions, but this should get things started. Thank you all for your help. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:09:05 -0500 From: Ed Walton Subject: Re: seams in stockings >Why assume he wanted *others* to wear them? > >It's possible he might want to wear them *himself*...o-) Her assumptions are entirely correct. I wouldn't wear such stockings myself as they would probably snag on the tank hatch and tear easily. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:47:19 -0700 From: Judi Burley Subject: Re: The current charter The last message i recieved was on July 30th its now sept.25th anything wrong i allways enjoyed the mail. jburley@mail.netidea.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:29:57 PDT From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM Subject: Re: seams in stockings N In a message dated 96-09-23 20:15:16 EDT, carole_newson-smith@NET.COM (Carole Newson-Smith) writes: >Also, I remember asking my mother why she didn't like stockings with seams in >them. I thought they were nifty looking. She complained about how difficult >it was to get the seams straight, >and how awful it looked if the seams were crooked. I recall being taught by my mother to put on seamed stockings by carefully gathering them in your hands so that the seam lined up precisely, then drawing them carefully up your leg without letting your hands waver. Keeping them straight was still a concern. She too used leg paint, including a drawn seam, during WWII (always referred to as "The War"). And she always wore a hat and gloves to go downtown (that's Salinas and Watsonville, California, not just San Francisco). Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:52:44 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant Subject: Re: Standards in group Hi, I'm Julie/Ara, and while I'm a bit of stickler for authenticity myself, I don't see how we can (without being horribly wealthy), acctually be exactly correct in every detail, so for myself I try to get the silouette right, and the fabric as close as I can (silk velvet and jeweled sleves are out of my budget). Given the broad timeline involved in terms of the SCA, I think that you will have trouble keeping a one standard for all agenda from the outset, unless you all agree on a time and place ie Ravena, 1300-1320. and even a social position must be taken into account. And then what about substances which were commonly in use in period, which are either toxic, or banned (whalebone substitutes) I have had to settle for synthetic fabrics, because that is all that is available locally, and I use my serger on everything, because I have a 3 year old child and a 1 year old doberman, so my time is not my own! I make my own lace, because I just can't find what I want, and I feel that it is an important period detail. So what would you do with the likes of me? =20 .At 08:45 AM 9/25/96 -0400, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: >I and a bunch of friends of mine in the SCA are thinking of starting a >household in the SCA which would encourage authenticity. I have a number >of questions for the group on matters that we would like to resolve >*before* we start. > >1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? > >2. Can standards increase in time? > >3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and oldtimers? > >4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? > >5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one >who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow >group standards? > >I am sure that there are other questions, but this should get things >started. > >Thank you all for your help. > >Judy/Jaelle > >jaelle@access.digex.net >If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely >challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn >between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. >This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White > > =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF\= =3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ \| = || T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D // email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:21:12 -500 From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Standards in group This is a subject I'm interested in and I hope to see a lot of replies posted to the list! Standards for different groups will contain a lot of gray areas, and it would be nice to discuss what various people & groups are doing. Judy/Jaelle wrote, > I have a number of questions for the group on matters that we would like to > resolve *before* we start. This will make starting and maintaining the group a whole lot easier than trying to impose standards on an already existing group. > 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? It's been years since I've played with the SCA, but I remember households as being subgroups of the entire organization. People are not required to belong to a household, and one could also belong to more than one. If someone was not up to the household's standards, they could still participate in the SCA organization. I would think, then, that adherence to the standards could be a condition of belonging to the household. Enforcing would start with explaining why the standards were set. If each member agrees with the goals of the group, standards will be easier for them to follow than telling them, "Wear this, don't wear that." > 2. Can standards increase in time? I would count on that! As more information becomes available on the time period, the things that were done before will need to be upgraded. Changes in standards could be worked in according to the difficulty in changing things. If you find that the fabric you were using in dresses is wrong, and it was expensive and you used 10 yards per dress, you may decide that all new dresses must be made from the correct fabric & all old dresses may still be worn. If you discover that a small tuck taken in a sleeve will make the dress more accurate, you could give a time limit of one month for all members to adjust their sleeves. There were groups twenty years ago that were considered elitest because they did not allow sneakers and jeans. If they did not improve their standards since then, they would be considered inaccurate today. > 3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and oldtimers? This will depend on the purpose of the group. If you are doing demonstrations/educational programs for the public, newcomers who are not up to the full standards may look out of place. If you have private social events, their lesser accuracy would be fine. Groups with standards should have a set of loaner clothing. A newcomer will want to try an event or two before committing to the time & expense of getting his or her own clothing together. Some items, like shoes, may require more leeway in the standards. Loaner clothing will also be helpful when a friend from out of town (who has no intention of joining the group) wants to turn out with the group. (This possibility will differ between groups, with their policies on insurance, attendance, etc. Children may need less strict standards than adults. They outgrow their clothes, and may wear glasses instead of contact lenses. > 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? I would think they should help a lot. Newcomers should be encouraged to do research, but may not need to study something that another member has already done. Existing research should be shared so others can build upon it. > 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only > one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't > follow group standards? I hope this is a hypothetical question! Is that need part of the standards? Does this person have medical training, and you want someone like that available in case of an emergency? Can another member of the group be trained to fulfill the role? If the standards are part of the group's identity, why does this person want to be part of the group? Clothing-wise, there is only so much you can do. You could make a new outfit for the person, but he or she may not wear it. If the person met the standards to get into the group, what has changed to cause the difference? Part of your charter may be that standards will change, and members will have to be flexible. Periodic inspections of group members could emphasize the importance of standards. --------- Charles Davis wrote, > I personally fall on the "Lead by example model." Everyone is expected > to try to attain a level of authenticity in all of their accouterments. > You could set levels for the new/oldtimers to shoot for, but be > forgiving. Just the effort to reach these levels will increase the > authenticity of your household. Leading by example can encourage people to go beyond the group standards. The group can state that period appropriate colors must be used, but one member may decide to achieve this by dyeing everything with period dyestuffs. I've heard of people who wanted to "lead by example" to demonstrate minimum standards. This is great if the standards are already known and understood. It's unfair, though, to expect a newcomer to guess what is right only by observing what the older members wear or do. --------- Julie/Ara wrote, >I don't see how we can (without being horribly wealthy), actually be >exactly correct in every detail, so for myself I try to get the >silouette right, and the fabric as close as I can.... This is where the group standards fit in. The group may require that all stitching on the outside of the garment be done by hand. You may already be doing that. I don't think Judy plans to have standards that require the correct breed of sheep, professionally handspun & handwoven fabric, etc. etc. (or does she?) The point of standards is to supply a starting line, not absolute perfection. The starting line in one group may be above that of another, and that will make a difference in what group any person will join. > I have had to settle for synthetic fabrics, because that is all > that is available locally, and I use my serger on everything,.... > I make my own lace, because I just can't find what I want, > and I feel that it is an important period detail. So what would > you do with the likes of me? It sounds like you've set your own standards, particularly considering the lace. If what you do fits in with Judy's household, you could join it. If not, you could either change a thing or two, or not join the household. As a group, they would help you by supplying sources of fabric and giving workshops. They may trade hand sewing or child care in return for some handmade lace. The household standards, my standards, or any other group standards don't really matter much if you don't want to join the group. I find, though, that other people's standards are useful to know and teach me more about different time periods. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:22:33 +0500 From: splumb Subject: Rocking Horse Farm Does anyone out there have a phone number for Rocking Horse Farm? They carry a pattern I'm interested in for an upcoming party. Thanks in advance, Michelle //================================================================================== // Steve and Michelle Plumb // // The Right Hon. was a chubby little chap who // looked as if he had been poured into his // clothes and had forgotten to say 'When'! // // // -- P. G. Wodehouse // ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:54:14 +0500 From: splumb@IC.NET Subject: Rocking Horse Farm Sorry if this letter is a repeat performance. My mail utility is misbehaving. Does anyone out there have a phone number for Rocking Horse Farm? They carry a pattern I would like to use for an upcoming party. Thanks in advance. Michelle //================================================================================== // Steve and Michelle Plumb // // The Right Hon. was a chubby little chap who // looked as if he had been poured into his // clothes and had forgotten to say 'When'! // // // -- P. G. Wodehouse // ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:27:13 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Crepe paper for dresses? I received a question on one of my library-related mailing lists that I thought someone on h-costume might be able to answer. The message is attached. Basically, someone wants to know if crepe paper was used on dresses around 1900. Personally, it's not my era (about 350 years too late for me) but I can't imagine anyone using crepe paper on clothing. If anyone wants to post replies on h-costume or send them to me, then I'll forward them. Thanks! >Hi everyone! A friend and fellow librarian gave me this address to try to >find the answer to a question a writer asked us. She is researching for a >book and needs to find out when crepe paper was first used. She actually wants >to prove that is was used for dresses in 1900. I checked our books on paper >(no luck) and only got somewhere when I researched the fabric, crepe de chine >which is crinkly silk that was used at that time. She hasn't let me know if >this is the right information; I suspect she wants the actual origin of crepe >paper. Has anyone a clue? The librarian who gave me this address has already >checked in the Stumpers archives with no luck. If you find anything, please >respond to me at frickerj@bucks.edu. TIA Janet S. Fricker; Yardley Branch, >Bucks County Free Library, Yardley, PA Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:21:30 -0400 From: Annikki Weston Subject: Where to find patterns? Hello! I was recently asked by friends about patterns for clothing suitable for the SCA time periods. One was specifically interested in Tudor/Elizabethan, and the other didn't seem to be looking for anything in particular. Regardless, they want already created and printed patterns, not something that you draw up yourself, or modifying modern patterns to suit, things that I'd know how to do! Stuff like Folkwear (if they have suitable patterns), I suppose. I've seen the catalog from Raiments(?) mentioned before, but I never saved the address. Could someone please send me the address again, and the addresses of any other companies that you'd recommend for patterns from 500-1600 AD? Thank you in advance! Annikki Weston weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:53:18 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Crepe paper for dresses? Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote: > > I received a question on one of my library-related mailing lists that I > thought someone on h-costume might be able to answer. The message is > attached. Basically, someone wants to know if crepe paper was used on > dresses around 1900. Personally, it's not my era (about 350 years too > late for me) but I can't imagine anyone using crepe paper on clothing. > If anyone wants to post replies on h-costume or send them to me, then > I'll forward them. Thanks! > > >Hi everyone! A friend and fellow librarian gave me this address to try to > >find the answer to a question a writer asked us. She is researching for a > >book and needs to find out when crepe paper was first used. She actually wants > >to prove that is was used for dresses in 1900. I checked our books on paper > >(no luck) and only got somewhere when I researched the fabric, crepe de chine > >which is crinkly silk that was used at that time. She hasn't let me know if > >this is the right information; I suspect she wants the actual origin of crepe > >paper. Has anyone a clue? The librarian who gave me this address has already > >checked in the Stumpers archives with no luck. If you find anything, please > >respond to me at frickerj@bucks.edu. TIA Janet S. Fricker; Yardley Branch, > >Bucks County Free Library, Yardley, PA > > Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of > Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They > p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever > p**s one off. > - Spider Robinson, > _The Callahan Touch_ > > (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of > the Kansas City MO Public Library.) Crepe Paper was used for children's party dresses (i.e. for costume parties). Denison used to have books about this showing the styles available, prices , etc. (I suppose they would be called catalogues nowadays). I don't remember any that far back but I do remember seeing some from the 20s and 30s when I used ot be in the book business. ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:56:40 -0400 From: Deborah Pulliam Subject: linen suppliers Another possiblity for those looking for linen is Textile Reproductions (Box 48, West Chesterfield, MA 01084, can't find the phone number right now, but area code is 413.) Their stuff is aimed primarily at 18th/early 19th century needlework reproduction, but they have plenty of nice linen by the yard. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:53:11 -0700 From: Alice Morgan Subject: Re: Standards in group One standard that I think should be in place for just about any group is to use fabrics/fibers that were available for that time period. The reason for this goes beyond just having the right look or snob value (ie "well, I have a silk dress while yours is polyester"). The most important reason I've found is that many of the styles of clothing you are wearing evolved with the fibers, and the garments will be much more comfortable. For example, a full length skirt in polyester can easially turn into a hothouse, while the same skirt in cotton or wool will typically breath much better and be much more comfortable to wear. I know how hard it can be to find the proper natural fibers when so many fabric stores only carry synthentic fabrics. You may not be able to get it exactly right, but in my opinion its worth the effort. Beyond that, asking about standards is an easy way to start a flame war. Talk to the other people in the group and try to determine standards you can all live with. Maybe a good first step is determining what you as a group are trying to do. Once you know that, its probably easier to start determining standards that get you toward your goal. Standards for private events or play events can typically be more flexible than events that are public or educational events. Some of the re-enactment groups obtain a non-profit education status that allows members to write of some of the expenses as a donation to the organization. Its very important for these groups to maintain high standards of authenticity to avoid lawsuits and/or losing their tax exempt status. Alice -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:57:58 -0700 From: A Alexander Subject: Re: Where to find patterns? I would also be very interested in any patterns. Please copy me on any info. Thanks. Katja ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At 16:21 25/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >Hello! I was recently asked by friends about patterns for clothing >suitable for the SCA time periods. One was specifically interested in >Tudor/Elizabethan, and the other didn't seem to be looking for anything >in particular. Regardless, they want already created and printed >patterns, not something that you draw up yourself, or modifying modern >patterns to suit, things that I'd know how to do! Stuff like Folkwear (if >they have suitable patterns), I suppose. I've seen the catalog from >Raiments(?) mentioned before, but I never saved the address. Could >someone please send me the address again, and the addresses of any other >companies that you'd recommend for patterns from 500-1600 AD? > >Thank you in advance! >Annikki Weston >weston@tardis.svsu.edu > > % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % Katja Maria Szarlotta von Plucinski from Drachenwald Barony of Lion's Gate aalexander@stpaulshosp.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:54:49 PDT From: ches@IO.COM Subject: Re: Standards in group Dear Friend, there are already groups that do this. Be happy and enjoy the S.C.A. for its freedom of creativity. Live by the law but do not die from it. There are a number of wonderful groups that splintered off of the S.C.A. or originated by other means that have very high standards down to the home made needles they weave the fabric with that is cut into by the forged and hammered shears made by the blacksmithy just for fabric to raising the animals that create the fiber from which threads are made from. Enforce away but do not expect your group to enforce a law that does not exist in the S.C.A. bylaws. On Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:45:22 -0400 Judy Gerjuoy wrote: >I and a bunch of friends of mine in the SCA are thinking of starting a >household in the SCA which would encourage authenticity. ---snip----- ..o0*0o.. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:17:20 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: Where to find patterns? I don't know how accurate they want to be, but I recently saw some = Renaissance/Elizabethan-esque costume patterns in the fabric store for = Halloween. There were a couple that weren't too bad. It was either = Simplicity or McCalls. That may be your best bet for a quick, = ready-made pattern that doesn't have to be changed. Joan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:17:06 -0400 From: Andy Songal Subject: Crepe Paper Dresses It was very popular at the turn-of-the-century for people to make costumes out of crepe paper for fancy dress parties--the term then used for masquerade parties. The dresses were usually very fanciful creations depicting flowers, animals, fairies; etc. These costumes were intended to be worn just for fun and magazines such as Ladies Home Journal would often include ideas for making these costumes for parties. I know Dennison Crepe Paper Co. put out a small book that also describes different costumes that could be made. Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:51:48 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant Subject: Re: Where to find patterns? You could try Period Patterns, Which can be ordered from Medeval Reproductions #1, 1255 - 45 Avenue, N.E. Calgary Alberta T2E 2P2 Phone (403)735-1909 fax (403)274-2247 They have Elizabethan gowns #56 and Womens undergarments #90 Tudor gowns #51 Tudor headresses are #52. They also have men's garb for the same peroid. The price is $25 for most and $22 for the headress patterns, and is GST exempt. I don't know if they are going to be any easier to construct than any of the other methods your friends have already dismissed, but if they feel less intimidated with a printed pattern, then maybe this is the way to go. - Julie Malin (stealing my husbands e= mail) At 02:57 PM 9/25/96 -0700, A Alexander wrote: >I would also be very interested in any patterns. Please copy me on any >info. Thanks. >Katja >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >At 16:21 25/09/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Hello! I was recently asked by friends about patterns for clothing >>suitable for the SCA time periods. One was specifically interested in >>Tudor/Elizabethan, and the other didn't seem to be looking for anything >>in particular. Regardless, they want already created and printed >>patterns, not something that you draw up yourself, or modifying modern >>patterns to suit, things that I'd know how to do! Stuff like Folkwear (if >>they have suitable patterns), I suppose. I've seen the catalog from >>Raiments(?) mentioned before, but I never saved the address. Could >>someone please send me the address again, and the addresses of any other >>companies that you'd recommend for patterns from 500-1600 AD? >> >>Thank you in advance! >>Annikki Weston >>weston@tardis.svsu.edu >> >> > >% - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % - % >Katja Maria Szarlotta von Plucinski from Drachenwald >Barony of Lion's Gate >aalexander@stpaulshosp.bc.ca > > =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF\= =3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ \| = || T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D // email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:21:53 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Standards I know of SCA households that have strict authenticity standards and those that do not. One reason that the SCA can be more lax, if they so choose, is because many of their events are PRIVATE. It becomes more difficult to justify fantasy or historical laxity in any era, if you are performing/demonstrating/etc. for the PUBLIC. It is primarily for this reason: the public is putting their trust in you, that what you are presenting to them is the way it was. In this case, historical accuracy is not only vital, but it is a CIVIC DUTY, much the way a teacher's duty is to present correct information to a child. Especially in the case of reenacting the Civil War, and other tragic events of our nation's history, we have a duty to those who shed their blood so that we could be free, to present their case to the public in a clear and honest light. This is not to say that we cannot enjoy recreating an interesting era, or explore the activities of the military with enthusiasm. All aspects of an era are instructive to the participants and the viewer, providing a context for understanding. As anyone trained in design-related fields, one can be most creative when working with specific limitations. In the case of historical reenacting, the limitations of history can be a fertile ground for discovery of the true past as well as our own creativity. >From the soap box: Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:39:28 -0500 From: Phil Jose Subject: larger-sized ladies' shoes Hi, everyone. I've been subscribing to this list for a few months now, and have finally found a problem that's made me de-lurk. Here goes: My wife and I are both big fans of the French and Indian War (mid-18th century) era and do living history events. Right now we're trying to find a pair of period-proper shoes for her habitante's costume. Here's the question: does anyone know where we could possibly find a pair of lady's shoes in a size 11 or 12, extra wide? Thanks in advance for the help, --Phil Jose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:09:57 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Standards in group Judy and Carol Kocian wrote: >> 2. Can standards increase in time? One way we do this in our German Ren. group is to encourage people to try to find at least 2 examples from period sources of the style, pattern, decorative treatment, accessorie or other detail. As people started researching more, our knowledge base grew. Certain ideas were modified. Certain concepts were tossed out and others were allowed. This group is now about 11 yrs old and is looking pretty good. New people come up to speed very quickly. >> 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? > > I would think they should help a lot. Newcomers should be >encouraged to do research, but may not need to study something that >another member has already done. Existing research should be shared >so others can build upon it. We keep each costume documented in files. We have some "basic" costume styles which anyone can make. Then when they want to try something new, they need to find the two examples. The database grows and is available to others. The German group I'm in encourages people to hand down their old clothes to newcomers. We also try to encourage them to start with a lower class costume and work up, increasing their costume/cost/accoutre as they gain experience. We found that a lower class costume made poorly is better than a poorly constructed nobleperson's. We also try to have things to do which encourages people to have working clothing as well as festival or court dress. It helps to have reasons to get new clothes or update old ones. The experienced people tend to lend clothing until the newer member has something period to wear. Usually people then get their own shirt, hose and shoes, and their costume grows. People that play Gentile folk, nobility, or Officers, also must acquire things like furniture, a period tent, a storage chest, can set a table for 4 with period table settings (so we can invite guests and lend to the newer members), as well as much more. As one increases in social place, one increases in material culture and part of the game is to "play" the part. Goals of acquisition and the ability to show largesse through sharing are dual function. All of Carol's comments were excellent. Julie/Ara wrote, >> I have had to settle for synthetic fabrics, because that is all >> that is available locally, One of the things members start doing for each other is gathering "finds". There are a number of wonderfully period costumes I've seen made from thrift store, flea market and garage sale finds. A wool blanket can be dyed or slashed. The blankets can be made into a variety of outerwear, including doublets, sleeves, hats, and cloaks. Draperies can be recut into all sorts of things. Old leather jackets can be made into pouches, sleeves, and much more. Bits of remnants can be decorations, bits of leather belts can be made into leather buttons, bed covers might be sleeve linings, linen table cloths can be shirts, drawers, aprons or headcloths. There are a lot of mail order places where you can find natural fabrics if your group makes that a goal. For damasques and brocades natural fabrics may be extremely difficult to find, but you might have goals of having the fabric designs documentable (i.e. no modern roses, but a leafy scroll work is ok.) ches wrote: >Dear Friend, there are already groups that do this. Actually there are very few groups that do renaissance, medieval or earlier reenactment. There are maybe 5 or 6 German Renaissance groups in the country. At least 2 of them are SCA only groups who have decided to choose that time, place and a level of authenticity. There are many places where there is not enough interested people to viably do this. For example, its very hard for a group of 5 or 6 to rent a period feast hall, something that an SCA group with its larger membership can often supply. >Be happy and enjoy the >S.C.A. for its freedom of creativity. Live by the law but do not die from it. Some of us find that the "freedom of creativity" of the SCA can even diminish our enjoyment. We find that we have as much or more fun when our creativity is challenged by research and the suspension of disbelief. >There are a number of wonderful groups that splintered off of the S.C.A. or >originated by other means that have very high standards down to the home made >needles they weave the fabric with that is cut into by the forged and hammered >shears made by the blacksmithy just for fabric to raising the animals that >create the fiber from which threads are made from. Enforce away but do not >expect your group to enforce a law that does not exist in the S.C.A. bylaws. Households in the SCA have always been able to enforce what ever they want internally, membership, internal awards, etc. I belong to a household that is about 26 yrs old and we have LOTS of our own rules and laws. People that don't want to follow them do not join. There are many "flavors" of households. There are some here in Caid who do indeed choose to focus on a period and place, and level of authenticity. IMHO there is no difference in that than a group where everyone decides to be service-oriented and work on autocratting events together. Encouraging more authentic costuming seems fine to me as a goal, as long as the original group can agree on the rules. Julie Adams aka Mistress Julianna in the SCA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:12:20 -0700 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: whalebone Gina Balestracci wrote: > > The type of "whalebone" that was used for stiffening is actually baleen. It is > from the mouths of whales (except sperm whales and a couple of other smaller > species that have teeth). Most whales are plankton eaters, and the baleen > would strain the nearly microscopic creatures so the whales could feed without > choking on big bits. I know this is a little off the subject, but I have a "bone" to pick with some of this information. About half of whale species are baleen whales. The other half are toothed. Dolphins, porpoises, killer whales, sperm whales, narwhals, grey whales, beluga whales, pilot whales and many others are toothed. A baleen whale's baleen does not keep the big bits out of his mouth, it holds the plankton in while the whale pushess out the water using his tongue. It takes a big mouthful of plankton and water, and spits out the water, swallowing the plankton. The rest of your information sounded great. Nancee (friend to the whales) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:46 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29649 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:07:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199609270407.AA29649@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3571; Fri, 27 Sep 96 00:02:54 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4407; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:02:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 19 messages totalling 499 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. handloomed fabric 2. cable ties 3. Higher backed corset???? (3) 4. H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 Standards in Group 5. Hussar shakos 6. linen thread (2) 7. H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 Standards in Group 8. Crepe paper dresses 9. Cotton Stockings 10. Dating a Calash 11. 19th C. hats & accessories update 12. Crepe paper for dresses? 13. Standards 14. Where to find patterns? 15. periodgarb 16. subscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:25:00 CDT From: Vicki Betts Subject: handloomed fabric I am a Civil War reenactor, with a deep interest in the Southern yeoman woman. I would love to be able to purchase some handloomed fabrics in colors and designs suitable for the blockaded South. Recently I purchased a dishtowel at MJDesigns/Michaels which would make an excellent dress if I could get enough of it. The trademark is Wimpole Street Creations out of West Bountiful, Utah, but the fabric was actually woven in India, according to the label. I suspect that Indian fabrics may indeed be my best bet, if I could find a source for it that would sell to an individual. Another alternative is to get Needle & Thread fabric shop (Gettysburg) which caters to the ACW market to purchase a quantity in various colors and designs, and then get them to retail it by mail order if possible. Does anyone have any sources that they could recommend for medium weight handloomed cotton (or wool if it exists) Indian fabrics? Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:29:51 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: cable ties > Actually, a friend of mine who's husband is a prison guard used the size of > cable ties used for riot cuffs to bone a bodice. They were about the right > length and a little stiffer and stronger that the plastic boning sold in > fabric stores. As far as I know, they worked just fine. > > Hollie My best friend (and current Queen of Caid in the SCA) uses cable ties for boning her corsets also. She works for the phone company (GTE) and they go thru reams of the stuff. It's a fairly stiff plastic, at least the 3/8 inch stuff is, and works well in place of straight metal bones. I've used the smaller stuff on her recommendation (the regular ties you can get at Radio Shack or the hardware store) for boning my Italian Ren corset and they work terrific. Filing the ends is a must, tho, since they tend to wear thru couteil and canas if they aren't filed (sharp edges, ouch!). I used the 3/8 inch ties for a bustle once - it was okay but I think spring steel gives you a longer lived bustle. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:37:44 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? Melissa Hicks wrote: > > Greetings all, > > I have just finished making the Tudor corset from the same Hunnisett book. > I much prefer this corset as not only does it keep in my "meathooks" (I am > fairly large) but it also does appear to help my back and I tend to sit and > stand with a straighter posture. Several friends swear by the longer lengthed corset as well. It's something to consider when making your own. And I mean down over the hips. I've got one made this way (for Edwardian) and it's definitely more comfortable for anyone with prominent hip bones like mine. No jabbing and it doesn't feel like your hips are about to fall off by the end of the day (like my Elizabethan). Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:42:36 -0700 From: Sandra McDaniel Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 Standards in Group Applause to your goal of encouraging authenticity in SCA costume. One thing I can tell you is that the general level of costume authentiticy has greatly improved over the years. I've been out of the group for about ten years, but recently had occasion to be at 2 events. In both cases I'd say that the costuming quality had increased about 50%. Time and the availability of mass production really do help. I have to agree with the others who have told you that example is the very best method of encouraging authenticity. S.B. McDaniel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:02:00 -0700 From: Catherine.Keegan@NCAL.KAIPERM.ORG Subject: Hussar shakos I was wondering if anyone knows of a source for the chin scales used in Hussar uniforms circa 1795 or so??? Catherine Keegan syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:04:08 +1000 From: Melissa Hicks Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? Greetings all and pardon the ignorant questions, but, wouldn't the boning over the hips make this style uncomfortable and restrictive?? Mel - from Canberra At 10:37 PM 25/09/96 -0700, don and carolyn richardson wrote: >Several friends swear by the longer lengthed corset as well. It's >something to consider when making your own. And I mean down over the >hips. I've got one made this way (for Edwardian) and it's definitely >more comfortable for anyone with prominent hip bones like mine. No >jabbing and it doesn't feel like your hips are about to fall off by the >end of the day (like my Elizabethan). > >Carolyn > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 07:24:27 -0500 From: Jens and Cheri Parks Subject: linen thread While we are on the subject of linen.... I have been searching for a source for linen sewing thread--no luck, of course! Help? Cheryl Parks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:25:24 -500 From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: linen thread > While we are on the subject of linen.... I have been searching for a > source for linen sewing thread--no luck, of course! Help? > > Cheryl Parks Frederick Fawcett has vast amounts of linen thread & yarn for weaving & lacemaking. The lacemaking thread is wonderful for sewing & can go through a machine. Their phone number is very easy to remember: 1 - 800 - BUY - YARN. -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:02:27 -0600 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 Standards in Group Much has been said about authenticity in this thread, and I won't repeat it all, but I would like to point out a few inconsistencies. First of all, mass-produced ANYTHING is not authentic. If you are going to bill yourself as "authenticity-oriented" you will have to resign yourself to using only those materials which DID exist in period. This is why re-enactment groups are pretty different than the SCA. The SCA is about learning by doing. That's part of why we don't require totallly rigid rules of authenticity. If you try to make out that you are "authentic", people like myself, who research period fabrics and then recreate them, will find numerous bones to pick with you. Going out and spending big $$$ on 'velvet' will not in any way shape or form make you more authentic that someone who uses cotton broadcloth. Period velvets were'nt very similar to what is sold in fabric stores today. There is nothing virtuous about spending lots of money on accoutrements or clothing that is only another modern compromise. It is especially malignant if you then hold yourself as "more period than thou" for having done so. Because I have a loom and am able to produce real handwoven cloth doesn't make me a better SCA-er. That just happens to be where my interest lies. People might be better off creating a household where learning was the focus, rather than attempting to conquer some mythical moral high ground. We all do what we can to enjoy the Current Middle Ages. If you can't enjoy a feast unless there are starving beggars watching you eat, you should probably do a little soul-searching and build your self-esteem some other way. Morgan On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Sandra McDaniel wrote: > Applause to your goal of encouraging authenticity in SCA costume. > One thing I can tell you is that the general level of costume authentiticy > has greatly improved over the years. I've been out of the group for about > ten years, but recently had occasion to be at 2 events. In both cases I'd > say that the costuming quality had increased about 50%. Time and the > availability of mass production really do help. > > I have to agree with the others who have told you that example is the > very best method of encouraging authenticity. > > S.B. McDaniel > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:18:13 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Crepe paper dresses Thanks to R.L., Kathy, and Jo Anne for answering my question. I'm sending your replies over to the librarian that asked for them. I'm sure her patron is going to be thrilled! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:11:17 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Cotton Stockings You wrote: >Cotton stockings can still be purchased in this country if you want to go with that look. The place to get >them - at least from my limited knowledge - is the Vermont Country Store. Last winter I got their >catalogue, but didn't order anything. Unfortunately I don't have better contact information than that. If anyone is really interested, Vermont Country Store only carries their cotton hosiery in beige. I carry authentic cotton stockings I buy from an Amish wholesale source in black, off white, and white, which are the only colors I can find. Sometimes we dye them red ourselves. These are virtually indestructible and do need garters. They do not have seams, and are 100% cotton (no lycra or nylon). They are about the weight of the little cotton anklets we used to wear in first grade in the late 1960 s and are pre-shrunk, so they do not shrink much if at all after washing. They are shaped to the leg. An enterprising person could easily embroider them for "authentic" clocked hosiery! (I experimented only enough to ensure that it could be done, with silk embroidery floss. It looked delightful but I haven t finished the pair yet. You must use waste canvas and stretch the stockings slightly in an embroidery hoop in order to get the best results.) The price is $6.00 per pair, plus $2.50 shipping for up to two pairs, $1.25 each add l two pairs after that. They come in S, M, and L. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:15:51 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Dating a Calash Dear Joan and Glenna Jo, Joan asked about ties on the calash I described. There are; they are gold, pale pink, brown, and white woven striped silk, about 3.5" wide with pinked edges. The pink in them is faded in differing degrees but seems remarkably lovely to me. The gold stripes are on the outside, each about 1" wide; the inner stripe alternates a 1/4" wide woven pattern of brown, pink, and white with a1/4" gold stripe. The remaining bits of them are about 12" long but may have originally been longer as they are quite deteriorated towards the ends and in places in the middle. I also originally called the ribs "canes" when I was examining the calash; the curator called them "whalebone" so I assumed he had some reason for doing so. I have no idea. They may well have been some sort of cane because that is what they looked like to me; there was a worn place on the very highest rib about 5" long where it was very easy to examine the entire rib. I just now read Gina s comments and I remember now that of course whalebone is black or at least very dark because it is actually the baleen. So this _must_ have cane ribs. I would think cane would be a good reproduction material were I going to attempt to re-create one (which I am not I have asked Mary LaVenture about that, though.) Thanks for your response; I will look at the Bradfield book for more info as you suggested. I have since looked again at the calash in "Everyday Dress in Rural America 1783 - 1800" by Merideth Wright and the calash she has drawn on p. 57 is virtually identical to this one, with these exceptions: 1. Ours is double ribbed, or caned. 2. Ours has no pull-string to raise or lower the brim, as I mentioned. 3. The ribbons are wide, not narrow, as described above. 4. Hers has no ruffling around the face and the bavolet extends all the way around to the front while ours only hangs down in the very back. 5. Ours has the 3rd rib placed lower than all the others for more of a curved front shape, as previously described in the original post. The basic shapes are very, very similar. The bow is exactly the same as hers in both placement and appearance. The length of the bavolet is the same. The overall height and width seems to be the same. I am curious as to the pictures and descriptions of later calashes so I will check out Nancy Bradford s book for those just to make sure, since ours does have the "later" details of piped ruffling and has no pull-string. If anyone is interested, I have a scanned photo of the calash in a low resolution or if you really want it, a larger high resolution. Thanks for all your help. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:21:51 -0400 From: Joanne Haug Subject: 19th C. hats & accessories update Hi everyone! Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Accessories has just added the following items to our online catalog: 1. Silk Bonnet, (c.1830) 2. Mourning Bonnet, (c.1860) 3. Wide brim hat, (c.1880) (possible riding hat, anyone have an idea?) 4. Straw hat, child's (c.1855-60) 5. Leather shoes, (mid-19th C.) 6. Black feather boa (c.1890-1900) 7. White feather boa (c.1890-1900) 8. Blue feather boa (c.1890-1900) 9. Brown feather boa (c.1890-1900) 10.Brown feather boa (c.1890-1900) 11.Children's clothing (c.1840-1890) Anyone is welcome to download any images from this site to illustrate any research or web page about the 19th C. Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques voice/fax: (216)835-6924 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:07:03 -0700 From: Susan Klein-Heim Subject: Re: Crepe paper for dresses? On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, R.L. Shep wrote: I remember as a first grader and new in school and being very envious of the kindergarten students who had these marvelous costumes made from crepe paper. Now that I'm a costume designer I had been searching around for some documentation on this process. So I find it interesting to have some information on this phenomena! The kindergarten teacher was about 50 years old and this was 1957. I have always kept that idea at the back of my mind and remember watching her sew these incredible costumes. This thread has me thinking even more about the possibilities. Thanks for jarring my memory. Sue Kline-Heim > > Crepe Paper was used for children's party dresses (i.e. for costume > parties). Denison used to have books about this showing the styles > available, prices , etc. (I suppose they would be called catalogues > nowadays). I don't remember any that far back but I do remember seeing > some from the 20s and 30s when I used ot be in the book business. > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:45:55 PDT From: ches@IO.COM Subject: Standards ..o0*0o.. Dear Friend, there are already groups that do this. Be happy and enjoy the S.C.A. for its freedom of creativity. Live by the law but do not die from it. There are a number of wonderful groups that splintered off of the S.C.A. or originated by other means that have very high standards down to the home made needles they weave the fabric with that is cut into by the forged and hammered shears made by the blacksmithy just for fabric to raising the animals that create the fiber from which threads are made from. Enforce away but do not expect your group to enforce a law that does not exist in the S.C.A. bylaws. On Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:45:22 -0400 Judy Gerjuoy wrote: >I and a bunch of friends of mine in the SCA are thinking of starting a >household in the SCA which would encourage authenticity. ---snip----- ..o0*0o.. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:47:53 PDT From: ches@IO.COM Subject: Re: Where to find patterns? On Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:17:20 -0700 Joan Broneske wrote: >I don't know how accurate they want to be, but I recently saw some Renaissance/Elizabethan-esque costume patterns in the fabric store for Halloween. There were a couple that weren't too bad. It was either Simplicity or McCalls. That may be your best bet for a quick, ready-made pattern that doesn't have to be changed. > >Joan > ..o0*0o.. They are McCalls 8449 and 8450. The first one is a bodice for the kids and Mom the second is tabards for boys and a slashed sleeve jerkin for men. I understand that McCalls has hired a whole slew of new pattern drafters from the local colleges who have taken quite a few historical clothing classes. Thus the new and updated patterns with more authentic 'feels'. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:18:00 -0400 From: Saporling@AOL.COM Subject: periodgarb hello- I am looking for information and/or pictures of typical Irish, Scottish, or English garb for either a peasant or a monk, and possibly a mercenary dating from around 400 A.D. through 1200 A.D.. (and if possible, any info on the daily life.) Thank you- sap ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:32:36 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? Hi! I'm new to this group, a long-time SCAdian and Renaissance costumer, who is now engrossed in the Dalhousie University Costume Studies program. When people talk about a "longer" corset, I assume thay mean one that has self tabs over the hips. This corset is cut with slits at the waist that are boned continuously with the rest of the corset (in other words the bones run right into the tabs). The boned tabs spread over the hips, relieving the tightness at the waist, and distributing the weight over the hips. When cut well, there is hardly a more comfortable corset available! The effigy of Elizabeth the First in Westminister Abbey wears this style of corset, which is also remarkably high in the back, and laces down the front (no busk!). This style was worn at the end of the 16th century, and into the 17th. In case people are wondering, a corset with added tabs will not behave quite as well as one with continuous tabs. Meg Carignan Also known as Maestra Francesca della L'Aura di Firenze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:07:40 -0400 From: No Name Subject: subscribe hi--just heard about you--please SUBSCRIBE me! ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:47 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05759 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 28 Sep 1996 06:07:44 +0200 Message-Id: <199609280407.AA05759@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3189; Sat, 28 Sep 96 00:03:02 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6644; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:02:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:02:21 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Sep 1996 to 27 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 567 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Standards 2. Standards in group 3. H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 (2) 4. Where to find patterns? 5. linen thread 6. Setting ink in fabric 7. Linen thread 8. Setting ink 9. periodgarb 10. Fashion!!!! We need answers for a project!!! (fwd) 11. American Antiquarian Society Fellowship (fwd) 12. Historical Costume (fwd) 13. Standards in group (fwd) 14. Small clothes 15. "authentic" SCA household 16. Authenticity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:32:08 -0400 From: Lethegirl@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Standards I would suggest that encouraging authenticity is a good thing, but can be overwhelming at first. start small, and work your way up, as you learn more. doing the research and the bargain hunting and the time invested in the sewing can be very rewarding, but not for everyone. try to set some basic ground rules that work for everyone, without getting too elaborately restricted. eventually, it will pay off, without getting too many of your friends toes stepped on. that's just my 2cents worth. remember to enjoy what you're doing. -T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:53:55 +1 From: Jon Bagguley Subject: Standards in group I'm not in the SCA but I am a member of a group which does public re-enactments and tries to be authentic about things. One thing I would say is make sure you keep communicating about what you all want or it stops being fun, having said that I find it hard to enjoy an event if things are obviously wrong so I suppose it's what you're used to. 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? This really depends on your rules, how is the group set up. In my experience it's different for each group. Having a set goal must help though. 2. Can standards increase in time? They have too as you learn more all the time. It take years to research a topic in depth though of course you can jump ahead a lot by asking on groups like this and finding other people who already do the period you want. I suggest you try and trace everything back to the original research as there are many misconceptions widely held. When something new comes to light discuss it decide what you are going to do and then make sure everyone knows the new ruling preferably in writing unless the group is very small. Start with a basic level, such as allowable materials, patterns etc. based on what you know now and add to it as you find out more. 3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and old-timers? As someone else has said this depends on your group. We do public displays so we have to lend people basic but hopefully authentic costume till they get their own. We start everyone in basic lower class roles for which it is easier to do good costume. To get lower class costume right is easier in terms of materials as getting things right on high class stuff is much harder if only because it tends to be so much more decorated and uses materials which are still luxuries today. 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? As much as possible. Having a handbook is good even if it's just a basic run down of appropriate first costume, and major rules and who is the best person/s to talk to about specific things. 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow group standards? Only you can answer this one, which is most important to you? Have fun, done right being authentic can add to the enjoyment but it's not worth dying for! Esther Reeves ( on my partner's account ) Temporal Schizophrenia : when you refer to both 15th and 20th century as modern and anything in between as old fashioned ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:51:24 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 > >My best friend (and current Queen of Caid in the SCA) uses cable ties >for boning her corsets also. She works for the phone company (GTE) and >they go thru reams of the stuff. It's a fairly stiff plastic, at least >the 3/8 inch stuff is, and works well in place of straight metal bones. > I've used the smaller stuff on her recommendation (the regular ties you >can get at Radio Shack or the hardware store) for boning my Italian Ren >corset and they work terrific. Filing the ends is a must, tho, since >they tend to wear thru couteil and canas if they aren't filed (sharp >edges, ouch!). In the past I have found that even some synthetic boning can cause problems with wearing through fabric because of sharp edges. On the last garment that I used it for where this might have happened (a fantasy costume bodice) instead of filing down the ends I heat sealed them. I got an old knife, heated it up and then gently applied it to the ends of the plastic boning, which melted slightly and gave me a smooth finish. > -- Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:52:40 CDT From: Cindy Abel Subject: Re: Where to find patterns? I have McCalls 8449. I hope by using it and another pattern, both slightly modified, to make a costume for our local RenFaire next year. The girls/womens pattern consists of a drawstring neck gown(with constrast sleeves--or one could make them of the same material if making it as a smock or shift) and a "vest" with or without an attatched skirt or apron. The vest could be turned into a tabard-like overgown with little trouble. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:00:52 -0400 From: Meredith Hoffman Subject: Re: linen thread Try: Kathleen B. Smith Textile Reproductions Box 48 West Chesterfield, MA 01084 413-296-4437 p. 19 of my catalog, which is about a year old, has linen sewing thread, 100% line fiber, on wooden spools, in size 20/2, 40/2, and 60/2. Great catalog. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meredith Hoffman/HumaniTech Ph: 508-746-4662 and 415-323-1559 53 Russell Street FAX: 508-746-4115 Plymouth MA 02360 email: humantch@tiac.net Technical & Marketing Communications http://www.tiac.net/users/humantch -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Writer, Weaver, Wonderer, Wanderer -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:10:23 -0600 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Setting ink in fabric I've been asked how to set an autograph done by ballpoint pen into a t shirt People are usually asking me how to remove ink in fabric, so this is a new one to me. Anyh ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:33:34 -0400 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Linen thread You might want to check out weaving magazines for sources of linen thread. I get mine from Webs in Massachusetts. They stock several thicknesses. The spools are about 5" long and 1.5" thick. Only white and natural tan are available though. Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:14:19 -0600 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Setting ink This question is just the opposite from what I usually get asked. Someone asked me how to set an autograph done with ballpoint pen into a t shirt. Any ideas? Thanks, Sylvia Rognstad, costume shop super., C.U. Boulder. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:36:57 +0100 From: Jo Reynolds Subject: Re: periodgarb As far as the Scottish information goes .... A good contact is the visitors centre at the Culloden Battlefield in North Scotland or the White Cockade Society who are Scottish re-enactors (I can get you the addresses if you want but don't have them right now); . I have a friend who lives with a clansman and has a lot of this kind of information (including how to plaid an early kilt etc) as she has done a lot of research on his behalf. I don't have the information right now but I can get it from her, alternatively I can get her to speak to you direct on email (when I get the address off her!). I believe early clergy tended to wear a rough wool tunic with a hooded tabard. Higher status clergy wore a linen tabard with a hood which would have been decorated. >I am looking for information and/or pictures of typical Irish, Scottish, or >English >garb for either a peasant or a monk, and possibly a mercenary dating from >around 400 A.D. through 1200 A.D.. (and if possible, any info on the daily >life.) > >Thank you- > >sap > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:35:41 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Fashion!!!! We need answers for a project!!! (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:40:02 -0400 From: EasthavenF@aol.com To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Fashion!!!! We need answers for a project!!! We are students at East Haven High School and we are doing a project on fashion and its changes over the years. We are particularly looking for information on what the fashion was like in the 1920's. Any information you have on what fashion was like it would be a helpful resource for our project. If you can answer any of these questions please send us the answers back. Thank You!!! 1. What kind of fashion was worn in the early 1920's? 2. Was fashion in the 1920's far from fashion in the 90's? 3. Why has fashion changed so much over the years? 4. Did people care about fashion in the 1920's? 5. Is fashion tied into the music and or events going on at the time? From East Haven High School Lisa DeFrancesco and Nicole Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:36:43 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: American Antiquarian Society Fellowship (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:12:05 -0400 From: Damora@aol.com To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: American Antiquarian Society Fellowship The American Antiquarian Society, a national research library of American history located in Worcester, Massachusetts is offering fellowships for creative and performing artists, musicians, writers, journalists and filmmakers. The fellowships will provide the recipients with the opportunity for a period of uninterrupted research, reading, and collegial discussion at the Society, which houses the world's preeminent and most accessible collection of American material printed before the twentieth century. Many different types of artists may apply. The end result of this research should be a work based upon pre-twentieth century history intended for the general public. A stipend of $1,200 for a four week period is part of the fellowship. Deadline is Monday, October 7, 1996. For further information and an application guidelines please contact the Society by calling (508) 752-5813 or by E-mail to cmm@mwa.org. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:37:41 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Historical Costume (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 12:27:40 From: tblue@csw.com To: H-COSTUME-REQUEST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Subject: Historical Costume From: Tammie Blue Dept: Client Services Phone: 918-594-2450 Fax: 918-594-3332 Internet: TBLUE@CSW.COM Subject: Historical Costume :H-COSTUME-REQUEST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Help! Can anyone help address specific issues on Christian costumes -- the 3 wise men to be exact. I've been contracted to design/create costumes for each character and I'd like for them to be as original and true to the period as possible. I have a few line drawings from costume books, but I'd like to get as many specifics as possible for each king. IE: - Colors / Fabrics used - Amount of beadwork they actually used back then - Type of head dress, etc. Any information you can share is most appreciated. Also if you know of a firm which has patterns. I have the magazines for all of the firms I know of (Amazon, Past Patterns). Thanks for all your help. Tammie IS Technical Training & Education "Vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision just passes time. Vision with action can change the world." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:38:03 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: Standards in group (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 13:15:00 EDT From: "PRYOR, KATHLEEN A." To: "'h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: Re: Standards in group > Hi, I'm Julie/Ara, and while I'm a bit of stickler for authenticity myself, I> don't see how we can (without being horribly wealthy), acctually be >exactly correct in every detail, so for myself I try to get the silouette >right, and the fabric as close as I can (silk velvet and jeweled sleves are >out of my budget). Given the broad timeline involved in terms of the SCA, I >think that you will have trouble keeping a one standard for all agenda from >the outset, unless you all agree on a time and place ie Ravena, 1300-1320. >and even a social position must be taken into account. And then what >about substances which were commonly in use in period, which are either >toxic, or banned (whalebone substitutes) I have had to settle for synthetic >fabrics, because that is all that is available locally. I think, for the SCA people, Julie has brought up a good point re getting the silouette right. I know that this spring/summer season in Texas, we were fortunate that 100% linen and fustian (50/50 cotton/linen) were the "in" fabrics this season, so I had a field day on the reduced tables at the cloth stores, stocking up material for colonial sewing. With my civil war garments, I will not spend over $7.00/yd. on material and even at that high a price it would have to be a very, very special dress or suit of clothes for hubby. If you frequent material shops in your area consistentely, you will eventually find the right texture/color of 100% linen or rough textured cotton material to put together a proper looking impression. Another point, if you are involved in SCA, is zeroing in on a specific time period and area of the world you want to portray. Like Julie mentioned. . . .Ravena, 1300-1320. . . .also taking into account the social class you want to portray. These points are very important. Some fabric stores have been stocking polyester velvets that have the right color/texture/look for the Medieval/Renn./Enlightened Age look you want to portray. During the summer a cloth store by me had slashed velvet prices to as low as $5.00/yd. With the drought conditions in the Southwest this summer, you can count on fabric prices, especially for organic cotton materials, to skyrocket next Spring. For SCA people and the tons of yardage in a court dress, the cost for making an authentic looking outfit could really add up. But again, some of the non-natural materials are starting to resemble the real thing. Only the hard core thread counters, which you encounter in any living history era, would give you grief over a material which was the correct color, texture, etc. for the period/class you are portraying but whose content wasn't 100% silk or whatever. Another idea is to frequent flea markets and garage sales to find leather for pouches/purses and other accessory items. I've picked up all leather ladies' purses for as little as $1.00 each, removed the zipper and hardware and recycled the leather into pockets, pouches and shooting bags and any other leather good items I might need for the eras I portray. If you have ever had a chance to brouse through the Alter Years or Amazon Dry Goods catalogs, they now stock an excellent selection of patterns for SCA impressions. Also, on the subject of eye wear for those who can't wear contacts, there are a number of suttlers in the country who stock a variety of period eyeglass frames.. . . . even ones that resemble the spectacles in the 1400's. The most important point to remember, though, is that no matter what era impression you are trying to portray, we are all, in the end, trying to educate a very ignorant public out there who have taken Hollywood's historical epics as the gospel truth! Kathy Pryor pryor1@amgdal.hcc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:00:24 -0400 From: Rebecca Handcock Subject: Small clothes >"Small clothes" are breeches and waistcoat. Of course, you also wore a >shirt, neckstock, hose and shoes. "Small clothes" were considered the >minimum that a gentleman could wear in public and be decent. Leave off the >waistcoat and you were in your "underclothes". No _wonder_ Darcey looked so worried when he saw Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice! He was wearing just shirt and breeches! Bec handcock@geog.utoronto.ca --------------- Westron wind where wilt thou blow ----------------------------------------------- A small rain, down can rain ----------------------------------------------- Christ if I were in my bed! Anon - Middle Ages ---------------------- And my love were in my arms again ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:38:09 +0100 From: Jette Goldie Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 At 08:51 27/09/96 +0100, Maggie Percival wrote: >> > > >In the past I have found that even some synthetic boning can cause >problems with wearing through fabric because of sharp edges. On the >last garment that I used it for where this might have happened (a >fantasy costume bodice) instead of filing down the ends I heat sealed >them. I got an old knife, heated it up and then gently applied it to >the ends of the plastic boning, which melted slightly and gave me a >smooth finish. >> >-- >Maggie > > Hi Maggie (et all) Have you found the 'boning ends' for plastic boning? Little rounded caps that fit neatly on the standard plastic boning and put an end to sharp edges. You can buy them in John Lewis Partnership stores (up here in Scotland). Jette (Joe's my jo) **************************************** *bosslady@ednet.co.uk * *Nemo Me Impune Lacessit * * * * Now rehearsing with the SJDKAHB * *(female vocalist) * * * *HIGHLANDER FAN'S TOUR OF SCOTLAND * * http//www.ednet.co.uk/~bosslady/ * **************************************** BB - flying tonight! (speywife) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:02:47 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: "authentic" SCA household I confess that I am at a loss to understand the tone of the answers to this person's request. Why is it that the word "authenticity" always raises hackles, even -- or perhaps especially -- among people interested in historic costuming? The SCA is not a re-enactment group, per se. And, true, there are plenty of "real" re-enactment groups out there. But if you live in Montana (or Idaho, or Ohio) it doesn't help to know that there's a pict re-enactment group in the English Midlands, or a 15th century re-enactment group on Switzerland -- or even an Elizabethan re-enactment group in California. If a group of people are interested in being more authentic or concentrating on a certain period, but do not want to quit the SCA, why shouldn't they? They can benefit from the relaxed SCA atmosphere, and their fellow Society members can benefit from their research. I can't imagine why anyone on this list would discourage research or attempts at better authenticity. It's true that modern velvets aren't the same as period velvets. But there's also a big difference between knowing what kind of fabric was available in a certain period and trying to replicate its look and feel as closely as possible, and just buying whatever is on sale at the local Fabric Barn. There's a difference between making woolen hose and wearing dancer's tights. There's a difference between buying or making an approximation of 14th century shoes and wearing Chinese cloth slippers. Knowing that we can't re-create something exactly doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't approximate it. And the fact that this person wants to do so with a group of like-minded friends -- not foist it on everyone -- should eliminate any fears about "arrogance." I think this person has a worthy and interesting goal. I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions (based on experience, anyway) for attaining it. But I'd be interested in hearing from people who do. Gail Finke/Myfanwy gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:22:07 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Authenticity Morgan said: > First of all, mass-produced ANYTHING is not authentic. If you are going >to bill yourself as "authenticity-oriented" you will have to resign >yourself to using only those materials which DID exist in period. This is >why re-enactment groups are pretty different than the SCA. Does this strike anyone else as a strange thing to say? So, mass-produced fabrics, historically exact replica jewelry procured from places like the Smithsonian and Past Times, WAH Makers line of western clothing, and ANYTHING produced by companies rather than individuals for bulk sale is not authentic? Hmm..... > The SCA is about learning by doing. That's part of why we don't require >totallly rigid rules of authenticity. If you try to make out that you are >"authentic", people like myself, who research period fabrics and then >recreate them, will find numerous bones to pick with you. But isn't that what they're *trying* to do in this new household? Encourage authenticity? This whole response (snipped for brevity here) seems to assume that this group has no hope of being "truly authentic" for some reason, and seemed to me somewhat harsh in tone... I would say anyone trying hard to be more authentic (ESPECIALLY in the SCA) should be encouraged and applauded heartily instead of being told it's hopeless and they'll be picked apart by someone who "knows better." This is very sad and discouraging to me! I hope I misunderstood Morgan's post. Just my $.02. ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Sep 1996 to 27 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:48 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08138 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 29 Sep 1996 05:05:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199609290405.AA08138@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8981; Sun, 29 Sep 96 00:00:51 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8269; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:00:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:00:48 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Sep 1996 to 28 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 179 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Phyllis Cunnington book 2. Can anyone help? 3. Authenticity 4. 19th C Amer. Army 5. Seamed stockings 6. Two new historically-dressed paper dolls to give away ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:57:29 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Phyllis Cunnington book Hello all, I have a question for the more experienced researchers on this list. I recently heard about the following book and since it appears to cover exactly the periods I'm interested in I was wondering if anyone else who has seen/used it could tell me if it is one I should go after. Did you find it to be accurate? Good illustrations? Construction details? How comprehensive? Cunnington, Phillis Emily, 1887- Medieval and Tudor costume / Phillis Cunnington. Boston : Plays, Inc., 1972. thanks much, lisa * <| .^. * * .=.=.=. * Lisa Leong * <| ^V V V^ <| lisaleon@hawaii.edu \^ ^ ^/ | | \^ ^ ^/ | |^^^^| |^^^^| | | [] [] [] | | ":":":":...:":":":" | ~~~|________[oIo]________|~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:42:59 +0100 From: Carol May Subject: Can anyone help? Hi, I'm a fashion design student in Glasgow, Scotland and i'm having a few problems. I have designed an outfit based on the nineteenth century american army uniforms and i'm having trouble finding authentic looking fabrics. Can anyone tell me where i can my hands on fabric? Thanks for all your help. Carol ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:02:40 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Authenticity Here I go again, with my vain attempt to understand "authenticity", and what it means in the SCA. I have little experience with other, more stringent reenactors, so I can't really speak to their issues, but having been accused of being the local Authenticity Police, I have some opinions I would like to share. I think the problem we are experiencing has something to do with our definition of "authenticity". An actual button, off an actual piece of period clothing is "authentic". A recreation of that exact same button, using the same tools and materials is an "authentic reproduction". A version of that button, that has the right shape, and is made by the same technique, but has a plastic base, and is made with modern syntheic thread is NOT authentic. That doesn't mean it's not good research, or well made. It's just no longer authentic. Most of the best costuming (especially late period) that is done in the SCA is far from being "authentic" by this definition. We are generally prevented from being truely "authentic" in our costumes, by the lack of "authentic" materials available to us. A person can carve an "authentic" piece of furniture, if the wood, tools, and techniques are the same as the original, even if some liberty is taken with the design (within the strictures of period forms). Costumers can't usually get the "wood" - we have to settle for substitutions. In the SCA, we have a convention that we accept for recreations. If you know as much as possible about the things you are trying to recreate, and expain all the ways in which your work deviates from the original, used materials that approximate the originals as best they can, and if the work "looks" right to the trained eye, then you have reached the epitome of "authenticity" in our minds. We can not expect more than this. If after all that, someone comes to you and says, "It should be hand-sewn", or (heaven forbid they would be so discourteous) "That's Not Authentic", they have too much of their ego tied up in what should, ulitmately, be a learning process, and not a test of personal worth. As others have said before me, the attempt is the object. Ironically, the more reasons you can name for why your well-researched and carefully-documented work is NOT period, the better you have done, and the more valuable your work. Costume is one of the most difficult of the SCA arts to do with authentic materials and tools. We should never shoot each other down for being less than perfect, at least until we ourselves are perfect. Are you perfect? And those of you who raise the flax, ret the fibres, spin the thread, and weave the cloth on a loom of the same proportions, materials and design as the original in the museum, sewing the cloth with the hand-made needle, I envy you your possibilities. If I could make the Italian brocade with the metal loops woven into it, and hire the embroiderers, tailors and milliners to do the many hours of expensive work, I wouldn't do it, because although my garb would be "authentic", I wouldn't have learned nearly as much as if I make the whole works myself, making the sacrifices and substitutions I am forced to make by the realities of my life. Maestra Francesca della L'Aura di Firenze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:16:17 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: 19th C Amer. Army Even the reenactor's in the US have trouble finding the appropriate 19th uniform fabrics. Most officer grade uniforms, Mex. War through Indian wars at least, used a dark blue superfine wool broadcloth that had a short but smooth one way nap, and was tightly fulled so it doesn't fray when cut. Enlisted grades used different fabrics, depending on which war, and whether dress or fatigue. Depending upon what your purpose for using the uniforms (theatre vs. historical interpretation vs. personal use,) some coating meltons come close, but are generally too thick. Carol, living in Scotland may provide an advantage that us Yanks do not have- the fabric rumor mill says that there are places in England where this fabric can be found- some of the ceremonial uniforms of the Royal Army, use a similar fabric. The French uniforms, those that retain the blue coat/red pants combination, also use a similar fabric. If you find a suitable source, please let me know- my Zouave boyfriend needs a new frock! Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:30:41 -0400 From: Mara Riley Subject: Seamed stockings For the person looking for stockings with seams: I've bought seamed stockings at Victoria's Secret, if you don't care to order them through a catalogue. And, I believe I've read descriptions of women coyly straightening their stocking seams... I imagine it could be quite sexy if done with the right attitude! Corbie ------------------------------------------------------- Q: How many Vorlons does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Yes. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:08:17 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Two new historically-dressed paper dolls to give away While cleaning up, I have found two paper dolls that my mom gave me last fall. These are modern paper dolls from the "American Girls Collection", still in their shrink wrap. One is "Kirsten", an immigrant to Minnesota from Sweden in 1854, the other is "Felicity", who is a Virginian in 1774. They both are accompanied by historical notes, and are suitable for ages 7+. I'm not going to use them myself. I can't bear to throw them out (they're $6 US each), but I can't bear to give them to Canadian kids either (I'm trying to fight the problem of US history accepted as Canadian history by default). So, if anyone would like one or both of these items, e-mail me with a good reason why, & I'll mail them to the person or people with the most convincing argument. --Angela Gottfred P.S. Sorry, Mom. gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Sep 1996 to 28 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:48 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA10728 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 05:05:17 +0100 Message-Id: <199609300405.AA10728@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1177; Mon, 30 Sep 96 00:00:58 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6971; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:00:58 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:00:52 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 357 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. French Rennaisance (3) 2. Three Wise Men 3. wearing gloves at night (2) 4. Linen thread 5. Standards 6. Higher backed corset???? 7. Fabrics 8. 1860s captains uniforms 9. Corsets 10. Seamed stockings 11. 19th C Amer. Army ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:10:26 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: French Rennaisance Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th century English costume, and know of others, but not French. Except for a few images in general historical fashion books, I've yet to see anything useful. Alternatively, perhaps a book on the court artists Clouet? (father and son, I think) who painted many Royal and noble portraits of the time. Tricia ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:18:06 EDT From: Larry Farris <73764.2675@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Three Wise Men Dear Tammie, As there is no mention in the Bible as to where the Wise Men came from, or even that there were three, the costuming for them is very much open to interpretation. I recently costumed them for a production of "Ahmal and the Night Visitors" and did them up as Egyptian, Persian, and Byzantine. that was a lot of fun and quite fanciful, as that show is seen through the eyes of a child. I even did one once Chi'in. Of course none of that is exactly "Biblical" period, but I believe that the idea there is to portray some men who were a cut above the everyday man in the street. If you would like some more info, please e-mail me at the above address. M. Alysea of Ashley MKA Karen Farris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:25:17 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: French Rennaisance P. M. Ostwald wrote: > > Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to > find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th > century English costume, and know of others, but not French. Except for a > few images in general historical fashion books, I've yet to see anything > useful. > > Alternatively, perhaps a book on the court artists Clouet? (father and son, > I think) who painted many Royal and noble portraits of the time. > > Tricia > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital > Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 > Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail > Centre > 2310, NSW, Australia There is a new book out entitled: THE FRENCH PORTRAIT 1550-1850. According to one of our reviewers for RAGS this book is an excellent source for costume information. Also a lot of the information it contains has not been available in English for some time. It is distributed by University of Washington Press (world rights) so I suppose that you would be able to at least order it through a bookshop in Australia. Good Luck! ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:58:08 -0500 From: KLINES@GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: wearing gloves at night I have a question concerning the wearing of gloves at night to either soften or protect hands. The reason I am asking is because of a play that we're our doing this fall. This play is set in 1927 and the young woman is obsessed about her hands and sleeps with gloves on. I remember my mother wearing gloves to bed when her hands were very chapped and sore in the winter. She'd use petroleum jelly on her hands and then put on a pair of cotton dress gloves. My question is: Were there actual gloves that women bought for just such a purpose? What were these gloves made of? Or were they just a spare pair of dress gloves? I have a copy of a 1927 Sears catalog and I have found dress gloves, rubber gloves and household gloves, but no specialized gloves to wear to soften hands while sleeping. Any suggestions would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance. Sue Kline-Heim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:43:12 -0400 From: Michael and MJ Houghton Subject: Re: Linen thread Greetings! > > You might want to check out weaving magazines for sources of linen > thread. I get mine from Webs in Massachusetts. They stock several > thicknesses. The spools are about 5" long and 1.5" thick. Only white and > natural tan are available though. > > Sue Evans > According to the sample book I got from Webs, they do have linen in colors if you want weaving yarns. Weights are down to 40/2 in 1/2 lb tubes, if I recall correctly. Michael Houghton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:02:55 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: wearing gloves at night KLINES@GBMS01.UWGB.EDU wrote: > > I have a question concerning the wearing of gloves at night to either soften or > protect hands. The reason I am asking is because of a play that we're our > doing this fall. This play is set in 1927 and the young woman is obsessed > about her hands and sleeps with gloves on. > > I remember my mother wearing gloves to bed when her hands were very chapped and > sore in the winter. She'd use petroleum jelly on her hands and then put on a > pair of cotton dress gloves. My question is: Were there actual gloves that > women bought for just such a purpose? What were these gloves made of? Or were > they just a spare pair of dress gloves? I have a copy of a 1927 Sears catalog > and I have found dress gloves, rubber gloves and household gloves, but no > specialized gloves to wear to soften hands while sleeping. > > Any suggestions would be extremely helpful. > Thanks in advance. > > Sue Kline-Heim I am not sure what they did in 1927, but I do know that you can buy such gloves now in the drugstore. They are plain white cotton gloves. I know this because a friend of mine used to have this problem and bought & used them. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 18:58:27 -0700 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: Standards Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: > > Here I go again, with my vain attempt to understand "authenticity", and > what it means in the SCA. I have little experience with other, more > stringent reenactors, so I can't really speak to their issues, but having > been accused of being the local Authenticity Police, I have some opinions > I would like to share. Snip > If I could make the Italian brocade with the > metal loops woven into it, and hire the embroiderers, tailors and > milliners to do the many hours of expensive work, I wouldn't do it, > because although my garb would be "authentic", I wouldn't have learned > nearly as much as if I make the whole works myself, making the sacrifices > and substitutions I am forced to make by the realities of my life. > > Maestra Francesca della L'Aura di Firenze Well said, Maestra. I applaud you. For many years I have said that the motto of the SCA should be: Making due with what we have. I also applaud the efforts of people attempting to be as authentic as possible in the SCA (and any other history organization, theater, museum or whatever). My only advice is to enforce your standards with love and understanding. Use tact and _constructive_ comments while nurturing newer members toward your goals. The SCA is as much about having fun as it is about learning and teaching. Meistres Meredydd ferch Owain ap Eliseg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 18:06:44 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? Melissa Hicks wrote: > > wouldn't the boning over the hips make this style uncomfortable and > restrictive?? > > >Several friends swear by the longer lengthed corset as well. It's > >something to consider when making your own. And I mean down over the > >hips. I've got one made this way (for Edwardian) and it's definitely > >more comfortable for anyone with prominent hip bones like mine. No > >jabbing and it doesn't feel like your hips are about to fall off by the > >end of the day (like my Elizabethan). > > > >Carolyn > > > > Not if you use spiral bones, which are more appropriate to Victorian and Edwardian corsets, instead of the straight bones typically used in earlier periods. Spiral bones approximate the movement you can get from actual whalebone (baleen) which was more common in later periods. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 02:08:25 +0100 From: Carol May Subject: Re: Fabrics Hi Michael (?), Thanks for replying to my message. The uniforms i'm looking at are from 1802 to 1898. The one i'm most interested in is the Infantry captains blue uniform with the gilt trim and up-standing white collar from the 1860's. Any information you can give me would be much appriciated! Thanks again Carol ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:43:29 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: 1860s captains uniforms The standard uniform dress frock of the 1860s captain was of the blue cloth as I described. The collar varied from 3/4" to 1 1/2" at most, and was usually, but not always lined w/ dark blue or black velvet. Undress uniforms showed much variation, but none had tall, white standup collars. Perhaps some of the european uniforms did, I don't know. I've done a bit of research on this, since I've made several for ultra-authentic types. The Time-Life book "Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Union" has several extant examples. I'll dig through my library to see what other good sources I can find. Cricket ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:56:32 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Corsets Spiral bones in Victorian corsets is news to me! Waugh describes the use of whalebone into the early 20th century, despite the developments in the steel industry. (CC p.169) What is your source?- I'd love to be able to expand the types of boning I use, and still be authentic.. Cricket ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:53:01 -0700 From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Seamed stockings Yesterday I bought a whole bunch of old seamed stockings at a Salvation Army basement sale. The old ladies in there said they were probably from the forties. All of them have a weird reinforcment in the heel that would definitly extend above the top of the back of the shoe. Why was that there and was it supposed to show? ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:20:51 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: 19th C Amer. Army Try Cann Uniforms in NYC-they also sell yardages.K On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, M. Cricket Bauer wrote: > Even the reenactor's in the US have trouble finding the appropriate 19th > uniform fabrics. Most officer grade uniforms, Mex. War through Indian > wars at least, used a dark blue superfine wool broadcloth that had a > short but smooth one way nap, and was tightly fulled so it doesn't fray > when cut. Enlisted grades used different fabrics, depending on which > war, and whether dress or fatigue. > > Depending upon what your purpose for using the uniforms (theatre vs. > historical interpretation vs. personal use,) some coating meltons come > close, but are generally too thick. > > Carol, living in Scotland may provide an advantage that us Yanks do not > have- the fabric rumor mill says that there are places in England where > this fabric can be found- some of the ceremonial uniforms of the Royal > Army, use a similar fabric. The French uniforms, those that retain the > blue coat/red pants combination, also use a similar fabric. > > If you find a suitable source, please let me know- my Zouave boyfriend > needs a new frock! > > Cricket Bauer > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:22:50 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: French Rennaisance Boucher's 20,000 years of costume is the "bible" in this business, followed a close second by Milia Davenport's History of Costume. More than you will ever want to know.K On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, P. M. Ostwald wrote: > Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to > find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th > century English costume, and know of others, but not French. Except for a > few images in general historical fashion books, I've yet to see anything > useful. > > Alternatively, perhaps a book on the court artists Clouet? (father and son, > I think) who painted many Royal and noble portraits of the time. > > Tricia > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital > Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 > Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail > Centre > 2310, NSW, Australia > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 ****************************************************