From ???@??? Fri Nov 01 10:51:24 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA06906 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:01:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199611010501.AA06906@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0365; Fri, 01 Nov 96 00:00:56 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5828; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:00:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Oct 1996 to 31 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 26 messages totalling 800 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Religious vestment exibition in chicago 2. Time Periods 3. Cunningtons (3) 4. Whaleboning (3) 5. Italian Corsets 6. Cloth of Gold (2) 7. Fiber Arts Mailing Lists 8. corsets 9. 19th c. Hair - New book! 10. Please remove 11. Cunningtons/reprints, etc (4) 12. Books sadly out of print 13. Orvus 14. Corset Alternative (was Italian Corsets) 15. Time periods (2) 16. Barbara Johnson Book available 17. New Costume Web Page ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:15:26 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Religious vestment exibition in chicago I just got back from a school trip to the Chicago Art Institute, and I was touring the textiles department, and found that the exhibition du jour is a collection of catholic clerical vestments... earliest peice is 1340, and it goes all the way up to the 17th cent. Most of it is 15th, and beyond. when brocades, velvets, and gold and rich fabrics were available... and the really neat thing is that they are not in some glass case, so you can really examine what is... but as always.. no touching! I think that they take it down in a month or so... I liked it alot. be well, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:37:27 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Time Periods Could someone please list the time periods and their names, up to the present and back to aleast 1200. (Ex. victorian) Kelly m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:08:09 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: Cunningtons You might want to check the Dover Books catalog. I know that they reprinted the Cunnintons' "History of Underclothes". Ciao, Joan At 03:02 PM 10/30/96 -0500, Stacey wrote: >New Text Item: 1630s suit/Cunningtons >Does anyone know if these books are still in print? I'd like to get a hold of >the 19th C one. Thank you! > >Stacey >stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: 1630s suit/Cunningtons >Author: K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY >Date: 10/29/96 6:23 PM > [snip]The book I alluded to is "Handbook of >English costume in the seventeenth century" by C.Willett Cunnington >and Phillis Cunnington. They wrote a whole series covering different >periods, including contemporary quotations and illustrations. The 17c >one has been published in the USA (Boston, Mass.: Plays, 1972, ISBN 0823801357) >but I don't know if it's still in print. [snip] >Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) >(King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:16:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Whaleboning Does anyone know how flexible / rigid, real whalebone or baleen actually is when it's new? Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:43:37 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Italian Corsets I've found that either a corset or a reasonably stiff interlinig can work equally well. While I make all my Italians to go over a short corset that holds my bust up, I've also successfully worn the same dresses without it. And that was *without* a heavy interlining. But I do bone the side seams (side opening on one side) with cable ties as bones. This keeps the dress from bunching up around the waist since I like longer waisted Italians. On the other hand, I've seen Italians that were supposed to go over some sort of stiff underwear, or that needed stiffening, and looked terrible witout either one. I'd say use your judgement on what you want. I personally like a corset because I don't have to wash the dresses so often, and I think it holds my breasts better (36D with a small back). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:15:26 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: Cloth of Gold Cassandra wrote: > When was cloth of gold first used? According to an article by Cole Cioran, published in the August Ursus, a newsletter I produce, cloth of gold was first used: " The first appearance of cloth of gold is difficult to date. Surviving examples have been found in China as early as the 4th century A.D., but the first surviving examples appearing in the west seem to coincide with the opening of trade with China in the 13th century . " >Was it in minor decoration or major >parts of clothing? I seem to remember a reference to a cotehardie bi-coloured >using velvet and cloth of silver. It was both a woven fabric, that is, woven with actual gold thread and coloured textile warp, as well as a gold leafing process, which was the down-and-dirty form. If you would like a copy of that issue of Ursus, I would be pleased to send you a back issue for an SASE. I have only about six copies of that issue left. Write me under private e-mail. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:18:23 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Whaleboning It is identical to your own finger nail. On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > Does anyone know how flexible / rigid, real whalebone or baleen actually is > when it's new? > > Best wishes, > > Sally Ann Chandler > The Historical Clothing Company > s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:42:00 -0500 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Cloth of Gold The book "Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500" by Jacqueline Herald, part of the History of Dress series from Humanities Press has a chapter on cloth of gold. They date to early 15th century in Italy. Also contained in this chapter is information on other textiles that incorporated gold thread embellishment in the weaving process. Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:07:57 -0600 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: Fiber Arts Mailing Lists Heilsa, All. Attached is some useful information I received from another mailing list today: ======================================= From: Ron Parker Subject: List of Fiber Lists Here's the latest incarnation of the List of Fiber-related Mailing lists. Please let me know of any changes, additions, or deletions that should be made. FIBER-RELATED LISTS - 10/29/96 version Ashford-Spinners (mostly Ashford wheels) - e-mail to majordomo@bolis.com with anything in Subject: and either 'subscribe ashford-spinners' or 'subscribe ashford-spinners-digest' as the message, or subscribe on line at www.bolis.com Susan Druding owner, druding@delphi.com or ashford-spinning-owner@bolis.com A Thing for String (fibers, beads) A moderated newsletter from user submissions, which will include personal ads. e-mail to Shopper@craftwolf.com to be placed on the mailing list. Include the following in your message. Your Full name: Business Name : E-Mail Address where to send ATFS: Where did you learn about A THING FOR STRING: Indicate your choices to be on the list for: All subjects, Fiber & Yarns, Spinning & Weaving, Supplies: Beads & Jewelry, Spinning & Weaving, Machine Knitting, Sewing & Serging, OTHER CRAFTS: (list), YOUR PERSONAL WISH LIST includes: (like a bridal registry list of gift to you things) Beads (beading, beadmaking) e-mail to BeadInfo@craftwolf.com indicating your preference for the Beads-list or Beads digest format. Wheat Carr owner, WanderingWolf@Craftwolf.com, Wheat@craftwolf.com CIS: 71774,3401 Cards-L (tablet weaving list, with an SCA emphasis) - e-mail to listproc@frank.mtsu.edu with 'SUB CARDS-L YOUR_FIRST_NAME YOUR_LAST_NAME' as the message or on line at http://www.mtsu.edu/~kgregg/SCA/cards.html Kendall Gregg owner, AKA Ronane Blackwell, kgregg@frank.mtsu.edu or ronane@kgregg.mtsu.edu Crafts-L (general hobby crafts with some fiber stuff) - e-mail to listserv@bigvax.alfred.edu with subscribe Crafts-L as the message. The list owner is coombs@BIGVAX.ALFRED.EDU. Crochet-L (crochet list) e-mail to majordomo@ml.rpmdp.com with 'subscribe crochet' as the message. Deb Arrowood owner, craftyd@prolog.net CrochetPartners-L (crochet list) e-mail to Majordomo@lists.teleport.com with 'subscribe crochetpartners-l Your Real Name and Email Address' or 'subscribe crochetpartners-l-digest Your Real Name and Email Address' as the message. Rae French owner, rfrench@teleport.com Feltmakers (felting list) e-mail to majordomo@maillist.PEAK.ORG with 'subscribe feltmakers' as the message. Patricia Spark owner, spark@peak.org FiberNet (fiber arts and crafts in general) e-mail to majordomo@bolis.com with 'subscribe fibernet' or 'subscribe fibernet-digest' as the message or on line at www.bolis.com Ron Parker owner, rbparker@henning.cfa.org or fibernet-owner@bolis.com Knitting (more off-topic chatty than KnitList) e-mail to majordomo@ml.rpmdp.com with 'subscribe knitting' as the message. Rob McKenzie owner, rmckenzi@rpmdp.com Knit (the big knitting list) e-mail to listserv@geom.umn.edu with 'subscribe knit' as the message. Amy B. Detjen owner, abdetjen@mmm.com or abdetjen@winternet.com KnitDesign (knit sizing and design, fairly technical) Teri Pittman is the owner. At present, it is an automated list for mailing, but Teri manually adds and unsubscribes people. Anyone interested in being added to the list should write to Teri at tpittman@xws.com." Important Note: post messages to KnitDesign@xws.com - the uppercase K and D are needed. Lace (lacemaking) e-mail to Majordomo@panix.com with 'subscribe lace Your Real Name and Email Address' or 'subscribe lace-digest Your Real Name and Email Address' as the message. owner-lace@panix.com Machine-Knit (machine knitting) e-mail to machine-knit-request@nyx.net or, for the digest version, machine-knit-d-request@nyx.net, with the word 'subscribe' as the Subject: Amy Stinson owner, amys@iquest.net Plastic Canvas (P-C needle arts) e-mail to majordomo@ml.rpmdp.com with subscribe plastic-canvas or subscribe plastic-canvas-digest as the message. Cheryl Perkins owner, victoria@rpmdp.com. Quiltart (quilting) e-mail to majordomo@quilt.net with subscribe quiltart or subscribe quiltart-digest as the message. Judy Smith owner, judy@quilt.net Rabbits (lots of show, but some fiber) The rabbit email newsletter is Showbunny@aol.com Subscribers just email to there and ask to be added on. A large number of Angora Rabbit folks are on the list. Sewing (all sew topics) e-mail to majordomo@pobox.com with 'subscribe sewinglist' or 'subscribe sewinglist-digest' as the message. Julie Page owner, owner-sewinglist@pobox.com or jkpage@inil.com sheep-L (sheep husbandry, health, wool, etc.) e-mail to listserv@listserv.uu.se with 'subscribe sheep-L' as the message. Torbjorn Wictorin owner, Torbjorn.wictorin@itd.uu.se or torbjorn.wictorin@udac.uu.se Tabletweaving (tablet weaving) e-mail to majordomo@bolis.com with 'subscribe tabletweaving' or 'subscribe tabletweaving-digest' as the message or on line at www.bolis.com Ron Parker owner - on behalf of TWIST (Tablet Weavers International Studies and Techniques), formerly called TWINE. rbparker@henning.cfa.org or tabletweaving-owner@bolis.com Tapestry (tapestry) e-mail to majordomo@ncn.com with 'subscribe tapestry' as the message. Kathe Todd-Hooker owner, spider@mail.ncn.com (for any list problems) or kathe for other matters. TechKnit (on-topic knitting and spinning discussion) e-mail to majordomo@magicnet.net with 'subscribe techknit' or 'subscribe techknit-digest' as the message. Lois Baker owner, gypsy@magicnet.net Wearable Art (garments, dyeing, treatments etc.) e-mail to Majordomo@embroideryclubs.com with 'subscribe wearable' or subscribe 'wearable-digest' as the message. Timothy E. Larson owner, owner-wearable@embroideryclubs.com Weaving (mostly weaving) e-mail to majordomo@quilt.net with 'subscribe weaving' or 'subscribe weaving-digest' as the messsage. Amy Norris manager AmyFibre@aol.com =============================== Wassail, ::GUNNORA:: Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde =========================================== Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:06:16 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: corsets Greetings! Dawn said, >I'm using the term corset to mean a foundation garment that is supplemented >with more than fabric- i.e. reeds, boning, busks, etc. I do agree >that a foundation bodice of stiff fabric was used, as the one Eleanora was > buried in. OK, we're on the same page, because that's what I was referring to when I said that 16th century Italian women wore "corsets". (I, too, have not found any references to boned Italian corsets--just the "pair of bodies" like those found with Eleanor's burial garments. (This isn't my primary period of interest, however--I just dabble in the 16th century). By the way, Dawn, I'm looking forward to seeing your dress at some point. I LOVE that dress! Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark (Nicolaa de Bracton in the SCA) sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:53:45 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: 19th c. Hair - New book! EGerds@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 96-10-24 09:17:57 EDT, dloberger@ESRI.COM (Dale Loberger) > writes: > > << I just got a notice from Harper House that, among other things, a new > book entitled "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th. C." > is available. It is subtitled, "A compilation of original 19th c. > sources by Mark Campbell and Mons. A. Mallemont, edited by Jules & > Kaethe Kliot." > >> > > Jules & Kaethe run Lacis and they are the publishers of this book. You can > get it from them as well as Harper House and AlterYears. (It came into the > store last week and looks great!) > > Liz Gerds The information from Mark Campbell on hairdressing is also contained in CIVIL WAR LADIES available from fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:55:57 PST From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM Subject: Re: Cunningtons The Cunnington "Handbooks" for various centuries have been out of print for years, as far as I know. The books turn up very rarely in used bookstores. I've seen only a couple in the ten years I have been costume booking, and they were about $60 each at Black Oak in Berkeley four years ago. The Cunningtons also did books on dress for marriages, burials, and christenings, and on working class dress. Plus a charming little essay called "The Perfect Lady," with color photographs. Another author deserving reprint, IMHO, is R. Turner Wilcox, whose books on "Hats and Headresses" and "Shoes" were printed 50 years ago on war-rationed paper. Her costume books are widely available in paperback, especially for art students, but the accessories seem overlooked. M. Channing Linthicum's "Costumes in Plays of Shakespeare and His Contemporaries" is another out-of-print gem. And the charming books by the woman whose collection is now at Bath. Perhaps Mr. Shep can advise whom we might lobby for reprints? Is it a problem with estates owning the rights to reprinting? Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Cunningtons New Text Item: 1630s suit/Cunningtons Does anyone know if these books are still in print? I'd like to get a hold of the 19th C one. Thank you! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com __________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: 1630s suit/Cunningtons Author: K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 10/29/96 6:23 PM The book I alluded to is "Handbook of English costume in the seventeenth century" by C.Willett Cunnington and Phillis Cunnington. They wrote a whole series covering different periods, including contemporary quotations and illustrations. The 17c one has been published in the USA (Boston, Mass.: Plays, 1972, ISBN 0823801357) but I don't know if it's still in print. Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) (King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) ----------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:27:21 -0600 From: Silvestre Garcia Subject: Please remove If this is the right way, please remove sgarcia@infosel.net.mx to the list. If it isnt, please tell me what can I do to remove. Thanks. Yolis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:37:55 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Cunningtons Don't mean to put Danine on the spot but--although out-of-print costume books in general are not that easy to come by, the Cunnington handbooks can definitely be found. They were prolific authors, and also worked with Alan Mansfield. I see various ones relatively often . . . I have a number, all bought used except the large book on 19th-century costume which was reprinted by Dover. (I bought their underwear book, also reprinted by Dover, in the original edition.) Obviously, to buy them you need to keep in touch with booksellers that sell used costume books. Such as Black Oak Books in Berkeley which Danine mentioned (they had several Cunnington books when I was there a couple months ago) and Fred Struthers' mail-order catalog. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:59:01 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Cunningtons/reprints, etc DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM wrote: > > The Cunnington "Handbooks" for various centuries have been out of print > for years, as far as I know. The books turn up very rarely in used > bookstores. > > Perhaps Mr. Shep can advise whom we might lobby for reprints? Is it a > problem with estates owning the rights to reprinting? > > Danine > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com > Phone: 415/973-1388 > Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA > -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ According tothe old copyright laws, they ran 26 + 26 years (if renewed). The new ones since the late 80s run for the life of the author + 50 years (automatically). I agree that Wilcox deserves reprinting - as does Cunnington. One of the Cunnington books was reprinted by Dover because the authors &/or their estate did not renew the copyright. But there was a bit of a stink about it. I would rather not play in that ballpark. Therefore I feel it is better to wait until books are clearly out of copyright and into public domain before considering which ones should be reprinted, which ones have enough market. Even reprinting is expensive and it all has to be aproached carefully. Also I find that many older books need additional material to make them suitable for today's readers, this is especially true of tailoring manuals which do not have fashion illustrations &/or where the terms are not used anymore. I would point out to everyone that I used to have a used book business which offered a lot of the books you are talking about on a regular basis. This is now owned and run by Fred Struthers. He does a good job and often has a lot of the books you mention for sale at reasonable prices. You can contact him for a catalogue at fsbks@mcn.orgs and to put it like Fran Grimble and other do: I have no financial stake in that part ofhis business. I am just glad that he had the time and energy to take up that part of my business and continue it because I feel it is a service that is needed by the people on this list and by costumers, students , and researchers in these fields. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:15:28 -0800 From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Books sadly out of print REPLY: Books sadly out of print 10/31/96 10-31-96 Danine Cozzens said: -------------------------------------- The Cunnington "Handbooks" for various centuries have been out of print for years, as far as I know. The books turn up very rarely in used bookstores. ... ... And the charming books by the woman whose collection is now at Bath. -------------------- Two of those books are called :"Lady of Fashion" and "Child of Fashion" both by Doris Langley Moore. They are lovely books of photos of famous actors, dancers, ladies of society, etc. posed in period appropriate settings wearing garments from her vintage costume collection (spanning 1800-1920). Unfortunately, they were printed before the advent of affordable color printing (late 40's early 50's) so all but the frontispieces are black and white. Luckily, she describes the colors and detail of each garment on the facing page. She has a wonderful way with words so you don't miss the color too much. I have those two, I don't know if there were others. I have never seen them anywhere except when I bought them (and I am often in used book stores). If anyone wants more information about these books I can look it up at home (they never leave my house). If you are interested in rare and old costume books you should get them if you ever see them. Agnes Gawne Seattle, Washington, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:39:06 -0400 From: Joy Pye-MacSwain Subject: Re: Orvus Afternoon: >Orvus is Proctor and Gamble's brand name for the product. I do not know if it >is available outside the U.S. It is available here in Canada through the International Gilders' Supplies, Ottawa, Ont. and costs $18 Can. for a liter. > >with its weight. I paid $20 US for it, which a co-worker said is a bit >expensive for California. Given the exchange rates that would be about $14 US if you ordered from Canada but then once you added in the shipping costs (which for me are about $9 Can)..... sounds to me like your costs are about the same as mine....:) Anyone else have a cheaper source??? Joy/ Elyene of Lochcarron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:27:31 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Cunningtons/reprints, etc > > -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ > According tothe old copyright laws, they ran 26 + 26 years (if > renewed). The new ones since the late 80s run for the life of the > author + 50 years (automatically). This is British copyright law? Fran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:40:41 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Cunningtons/reprints, etc Frances Grimble wrote: > > > > -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ > > According tothe old copyright laws, they ran 26 + 26 years (if > > renewed). The new ones since the late 80s run for the life of the > > author + 50 years (automatically). > > This is British copyright law? > > Fran The above is a U.S. Copyright Law but is valid in all contries signing the copyright convention (i.e. notChina, and probably Russia, etc). The new law devised in the 1980s was the same for all. What this means (in effect) is that we have to abide by the above laws whether the book was published here or in England. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:10:09 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Corset Alternative (was Italian Corsets) New Text Item: Re: Italian Corsets Greetings all, I have found this thread very interesting because I plan to make my next English liveried servant's bodice with the corset "built in." What would be better to use for the stiffening material, Pellon heavy weight stabiliser (stands up on it's own, polyester) or heavy weight canvas (cotton). I've used the Pellon for my lower class bodices, but am now concerned with the cloth breathing as I will have sleeves and a higher necked bodice therefore less access for cooling. Would the thick canvas still breathe? Thanks! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:17:13 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Cunningtons/reprints, etc Robb, My understanding (which may be wrong; I'm not an attorney) is that British and American copyright laws and terms of protection differ, even though we agreed to respect their laws and vice versa. And that reprint publication is governed by the copyright laws of the country the work was originally published in, not the country it is reprinted in. Maybe some British person on h-costume can recommend a good book (for nonattorneys) on British copyright law. . . Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:27:39 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Time periods The following are the time periods in costume history as I was taught in my C.H. class last year. Middle Ages: 1110-1300 A.D Early Gothic: 1300-1400 Late Gothic: 1400-1459 Transitional: 1460-1499 Renaissance: 1500-1580 Elizabethan: 1580-1620 Cavalier: 1620-1660 Restoration: 1660-1710 Early Georgian: 1710-1760 Late Georgian: 1760-1780 Empire: 1780-1820 Romantic: 1820-1850 Crinoline: 1840-1870 Bustle: 1870-1890 Fin de Seicle (Gay Ninties): 1890-1902 Edwardian: 1902-1913 The War Years: 1914-1920 Roaring 20's: 1920-1929 Then rest are referred to by the decade names. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:07:47 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Barbara Johnson Book available _A Lady of Fashion: Barbara Johnson's Album_, edited by Natalie Rothstein, is still available from the publisher in England. I hope I got the title & author right - I don't have my copy yet! This book is a repro of fashion illustrations and FABRIC SWATCHES collected by Barbara Johnson in the late 18th & early 19thC. It's a terrific resource. This book was originally published around 1989, and I was an idiot & didn't get a copy. I had been kicking myself ever since I heard it was out of print. But Oh, Happy Day, it's still available! Special thanks to June Brilliant, an 18thC clothier from New Jersey, who gave me the information. The publisher is Thames & Hudson. From the US, phone 011-44-171-636-5488 or fax 636-1695. I guess those calling from England can leave off a few digits on the front end of the phone number. Ask for Rachel Kelley. She is also reachable through their web page, feedback section: http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/feedback.htm They don't have e-mail, so phoning would be the most efficient approach. The book costs 48 pounds, which works out to about $79 (this week). It can be shipped either surface or air at an additional cost. Thames & Hudson books are distributed through W.W. Norton in the US. Their web page lists lots of interesting books: http:/www.wwnorton.com/thames/welcome.htm They don't have the Barbara Johnson book in stock any more, though. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:52:13 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: New Costume Web Page Check out this costume web page I found this week. http://icecube.acf-lab.alaska.edu/~fftmm1 The last character in the URL is a one. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:07:07 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Whaleboning On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > Does anyone know how flexible / rigid, real whalebone or baleen actually is > when it's new? > I have a piece of unprocessed baliene here at home. It is fairly black, and quite rigid. Once it is boiled (or soaked in hot water, I'm not sure which) it supposedly softens enough to cut with a sharp knife. It is very fibrous and shiny, and has an obvious "grain". Sadly, the piece I have is too short to use for bones, but I hope to acquire enough more to bone a corset with it. My instructor tells me that, up until the 1970's, whalebone was still the boning of choice, and was easily obtainable. Boo hoo! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:17:33 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Time periods About the names of historic periods, keep in mind that these names are strictly for English periods - we Italian specialists get pretty tired of being overlooked all the time, and some of us have a complex about it! We never had a Georgian period, for instance, and our Renaissance was about 150 years before anyone else's. There's nothing that makes me smirk more than being complemented on my "lovely Elizabethan" Italian gowns! ;) Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Oct 1996 to 31 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 04 09:33:41 1996 Received: from BROWNVM.brown.edu ([128.148.19.19]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA12378 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 2 Nov 1996 06:02:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199611020502.AA12378@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2516; Sat, 02 Nov 96 00:02:14 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4869; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:02:11 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 31 Oct 1996 to 1 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 28 messages totalling 818 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Corset Sizes 2. nalbinding 3. Time periods (4) 4. Cunningtons 5. costume sources 6. Terms (2) 7. Cunningtons/reprints, etc 8. Cloth of Gold. 9. Hoop wire (3) 10. copyright law etc.. 11. subscribe me, please... 12. "Horsehair braid" (2) 13. Re[2]: copyright law etc.. 14. Copyright law (3) 15. 20000 Years of Costume 16. Blatant Australian Feast Plug 17. Re. 19th C. Hair Book 18. Vestment Exhibition in Chicago 19. Hair styles for many periods ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:16:06 -0800 From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Corset Sizes Hello everybody. I was wondering if anybody knows or knows where I can find various corset sizes from the 1860's and the 1890's. We have to do projects in my Statistics class and I thought it would be interesting to compare the two decades. I need at least thirty measurements from each decade. I am not sure if this is something that I can find but I'm trying! Thanks! ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:26:02 +1100 From: Melissa Hicks Subject: Re: nalbinding Are you extending this offer overseas ?? If so how do you want to run the costs ?? Melissa Hicks 4 Weir Pl HIGGINS ACT 2615 AUSTRALIA At 09:41 AM 18/10/96 -0400, Tess Parrish wrote: >In case my previous postings don't show up, I repeat the information: I will >gladly send out the 30-page folder on nalbinding to anyone who sends me an >S-mail address (use Email). It costs me $4 to get it all together, so I >would appreciate this when you receive your packet. I will print out all >names on the Hist-Cost. list as I send them out. Tess > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:18:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Time periods I'm afraid I have to disagree with some of Penny's terms! I'm working strictly from an English point of view. Penny wrote: >The following are the time periods in costume history as I was taught in my >C.H. class last year. >Middle Ages: 1110-1300 A.D >Early Gothic: 1300-1400 >Late Gothic: 1400-1459 >Transitional: 1460-1499 These sound architectural rather than costume to me! I certainly wouldn't apply the term 'Gothic' to the early 15th century. The term 'Middle Ages' or 'medieval', surely covers from ?end of Roman Empire ?500 AD (this is very vague to me) to the 1490s. Late Medieval is 1300 to 1490s. We tend to refer to terms such as Wars of the Roses for the 1450s - 1480s. >Renaissance: 1500-1580 The English don't really have the Renaissance until Elizabeth. Its more useful in relation to Italy, when 1470 - 1520 is probably the span. Tudor 1490s - 1558 >Elizabethan: 1580-1620 Elizabethan 1558 - 1603 (well that's when she reigned!) Jacobean 1603 - 1620 >Cavalier: 1620-1660 Surely a term which relates to the Civil War, contrasted to the contemporary Roundhead style, so 1640-1660. I would refer to Charles I for 1620 - 1640 (I'm not sure of his date of accession). >Restoration: 1660-1710 >Early Georgian: 1710-1760 >Late Georgian: 1760-1780 >Empire: 1780-1820 >Romantic: 1820-1850 >Crinoline: 1840-1870 >Bustle: 1870-1890 >Fin de Seicle (Gay Ninties): 1890-1902 >Edwardian: 1902-1913 >The War Years: 1914-1920 >Roaring 20's: 1920-1929 >Then rest are referred to by the decade name Don't know enough to query these, but they seem rather general to me - what about William and Mary (Dutch influence after 1688) or Queen Anne? Surely 1780 to 1820 is too broad a stretch for Empire? I thought Empire was late 1790s - and then it's Revolutionary really? As for other countries, why don't people post their areas of knowledge and what they call them and we'll see if we can line them up. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:10:18 -0600 From: Michelle Powell-Smith Subject: Re: Time periods On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > I'm afraid I have to disagree with some of Penny's terms! I'm working > strictly from an English point of view. > >Middle Ages: 1110-1300 A.D > >Early Gothic: 1300-1400 > >Late Gothic: 1400-1459 > >Transitional: 1460-1499 > > These sound architectural rather than costume to me! I certainly wouldn't > apply the term 'Gothic' to the early 15th century. The term 'Middle Ages' > or 'medieval', surely covers from ?end of Roman Empire ?500 AD (this is very > vague to me) to the 1490s. Late Medieval is 1300 to 1490s. We tend to > refer to terms such as Wars of the Roses for the 1450s - 1480s. Well, while I can't say for sure about costume, in reference to art and architecture these periods are far from correct. I wouldn't even call 1300-1490's late medieval-while 1300-1400 might be, I would call post 1400 something like "transitional" Michelle Powell-Smith Just an art historian with an interest in costume ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:27:17 -0700 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: Cunningtons The "History of Underclothes", at least, is in print. We had it in stock recently, and expect more copies soon. Morgan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:45:21 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: costume sources Hello Everyone ~ I am new to this list so I hope that this posts okay. First, I am just a dabbler in costume history, my main interest being the Elizabethan period of writing as opposed to costume. Keeping this in mind does anyone have some recommendations for IN PRINT books that provide an overview of costume from the 1100 to 1900. I don't have access to a costume bookstore around here so these books would have to be ordered, hopefully, through our local bookstores here (including Barnes and Noble). Or I can try out local libraries including several University libraries. Second, if anyone has some sources for the following please email me the info. I am starting a company that provides children's period costumes for parties and am interested in finding some seamstresses in the United States that could provide such costumes. These are costumes in the theatrical sense as opposed to the re-anactment sense (meaning easy off and on, and perhaps not strict attention to detail will happen...more like historical interpertations). The time periods I am searching for English Renaissance, Italian Renaissance, Elizabethan; Empire; and 1800's. Any leads are welcome. Thanks again ~ Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:52:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Terms I was interested in Michelle's note. I was taught that for convenience, 1492 (Europe - discovery of America) and 1487 (England - end of Wars of Roses, beginning of Tudor dynasty) were the dividing dates between late medieval and early modern history - which have more importance for the historian than for people living at the time. We didn't use a term like 'transitional' at all - after all, every period could be described as transitional, and if you used it in a neutral context who would know which period you were talking about? I've just purchased a book called 'Standards of Living in the Late Middle Ages', which concentrates on the 14th and 15th century - 'Standards of Living in the Transitional Age' doesn't sound half as interesting! Its by Christopher Dyos BTW, and if I ever get it off my husband I gather its very interesting! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:42:29 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Cunningtons/reprints, etc Frances Grimble wrote: > > Robb, > > My understanding (which may be wrong; I'm not an attorney) is that > British and American copyright laws and terms of protection > differ, even though we agreed to respect their laws and vice versa. And > that reprint publication is governed by the copyright laws of the > country the work was originally published in, not the country it is > reprinted in. Maybe some British person on h-costume can recommend a > good book (for nonattorneys) on British copyright law. . . > > Fran Grimble My understanding is just the opposite (& I am not a lawyer, either). We have to abide by the laws of the US. If you or I chose to reprint something then it must be done under our law, not the law of the country that it was originally printed in. This is why we are so upset at China. People are stealing our copyrights because their law says they can.... our law says they can't, but they work under their own laws, not ours. As I said earlier - all this was cleared up for most countries in the new 80s copyright laws.... but they only apply to books printed after that date, other works are not 'grandfathered-in'. If someone knows more about this I too would be glad to hear about it. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:09:11 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Cloth of Gold. I just remembered, is't there referances to 'golden cloth' in the Play _Medea_, By Euripedies? I know there was some attatcment to the fleece... but she sent garments of gold to jason's new wife, and she met a rather messy end. take Care, Sarahj PS, in light of all the clerical garment talk as of late, there is an exhibit in the chicago art institute, all composed to Priestly over garments. It was a very interesting thing to see, starting with the 1400's, and going up the the 1700's... all that embroidery, stitching and wire wrapped thread... wow. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:07:38 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Time periods I think it is really interesting, all these variations...... If we are talking about English periods then why Empire? That has to dowith France. I consider 1810 Regency - or Late Georgian, if we are talking about England. If we are talking about the US then we have to look at Colonial, Revolutionary, Federalist, etc. I suppose for all of us, since the net is spread out over the world and the world gets smaller everyday it would be best to refer to all costume periods by date and not these labels that don't make sense to others. (of course some cultures don't use our dating system either, but they usually do understand and accept it). ~!~ R.L. Shep "The same costume will be: Indecent...10 years before its time Shameless... 5 years before its time Outre...1 year before its time Smart (in its time) Dowdy...1 year after its time Hideous...10 years after its time Ridicuoous...20 years after its time Amusing ...30 years after its time Quaint...50 years after its time Charming...70 years after its time Romantic...100 years after its time Beautiful...150 years after its time" James Laver ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:13:07 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: Hoop wire A friend asked me if there was any place, particularly here in Seattle where she can get wide, about 1-2" solid metal hoop wire. She is making a costume for Mother Ginger in Nutcracker and needs something very strong and sturdy to hold up the fabric and handle the hieght required. Thanks for any help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:46:15 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: copyright law etc.. There has been a "historical" problem with books being re-printed in the U.S. that were originally from Britain, with the authors not getting proper compensation during their own time. For example, Georgette Heyer. Another problem is that after so many years after an authors' death (I *think 50 years) their works are no longer protected even though an estate still exists that is managing their affairs. For example, JRR Tolkiens works are being published outside of his foundation and this can legally be done. Another example, is the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs and Beatrix Potter. For my own sake I try to buy works that are so-called "authorized" versions as I feel that the families of the authors should be reaping some of the money for their ancestor's works. Particularly Beatrix Potter who gave the rights to her works to the National Trust. When it comes to using materials out of books, if the book is out of print and has been published over 100 years ago than you can use the art out of the book. I think you can do this if the book is 50 years old out of print. To check out more about trademark and copyright protection, you can view the website with the U.S. Copyright Office. http://www.uspto.gov What I would like to know is how does the trademark for costumes work? For example, a design by Disney for Snow White; how is that protected since an "idea" can't be trademarked? Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:23:30 -0800 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Hoop wire At 09:13 AM 11/1/96 -0700, you wrote: >A friend asked me if there was any place, particularly here in Seattle where >she can get wide, about 1-2" solid metal hoop wire. She is making a costume >for Mother Ginger in Nutcracker and needs something very strong and sturdy to >hold up the fabric and handle the hieght required. Thanks for any help. > >I don't know if there is a commercial product designed for the purpose, but I've used lumber banding with great success. It's the metal strapping that comes around bundles of lumber. It can be bought new in rolls from large hardware stores such as Home Depot, or you can scavenge it from lumber yards, which can be amusing -- once I asked a lumber yard if they had any and was told I could check the dumpsters. While I was digging through the trash, one of the staff asked me what I used it for. I smiled sweetly and said " I'm making bridesmaid's dresses!" The same stuff is sometimes used as a sustitute for spring steel boning, but it's not washable and I've had it rust through the fabric and stain a corset just from body moisture.. I've heard that for costumes in which a performer needs to takes falls or do other dangerous manuevers, a hoopskirt can be built from 2" foam pipe insulation. Has anyone tried this? How are they made? Was it rigid enough? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:19:49 -0600 From: Darleen Annette Knittle Subject: Re: subscribe me, please... I want to subscribe again, but every time I send a message it won't let me....are you still there? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:45:15 -0500 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: Re: Time periods R.L. Shep said: >I think it is really interesting, all these variations...... Let's face it, between "newbies" and people becoming deeply involved in a particular discussion, this is going to be a recurring problem. The only solution will be to keep reminding each other, hopefully with good nature and good humour, to be specific about "where" and "when". >If we are talking about English periods then why Empire? That has to >do with France. One of my favorite experiences was the time we visited Deerfield Village a couple of years ago. (A site designed for mega furniture freaks by mega furniture freaks - the interpretors appeared to know nothing else) One interpretor proudly announced that the Empire style was the first "American" furniture style. It was difficult to fight down the temptation to ask "But why was it called "Empire" then? The U.S. didn't have an empire. Wasn't it called "Empire" after the French style? Then it was part of an international style then, eh?" Later on another interpretor pointed out a General Wolfe punch bowl and fireback and tentatively explained it by wondering "Maybe he was a friend of the family?" She was much surprised when we told her Wolfe was a popular hero as a result of his conquest of Quebec. To be fair, though, so many sites have to rely on volunteers and students now, and so often facts become fractured as they're transmitted through the staff. I consider 1810 Regency - or Late Georgian, if we are >talking about England. This is my particular period of interest and quandary too! (Granted, if you wanted to be tight-assed about it, the Regency didn't really start until 1811, when the Prince was officially appointed Regent. My apologies - and here I am claiming to be trying to avoid nit-picking and info- bashing! A vile hyprocite! We do War of 1812, but I'm also interested in costume c. 1795-1815. This doesn't fit into a neat category. While the Connoisseur Period Guides consider late Georgian to be 1760-1810(!) and the Regency 1810-1830, I've come across sources referring to up to 1836 as "late Georgian"! So the possibilities for squabbling are endless. >If we are talking about the US then we have to look at Colonial, >Revolutionary, Federalist, etc. >I suppose for all of us, since the net is spread out over the world and >the world gets smaller everyday it would be best to refer to all costume >periods by date and not these labels that don't make sense to others. >(of course some cultures don't use our dating system either, but they >usually do understand and accept it). I second this, but we're going to have to keep jogging each other's memory. Pleasantly, I hope. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:45:38 -0600 From: Michelle Powell-Smith Subject: Re: Terms My terms weren't necessarily canonical, because there aren't really canonical terms...I am usually inclined to think of the fifteenth century as being "renaissance" (in the North) and the fourteenth century as being "Late Gothic", however, there does seem to be some "transition" in there somewhere-perhaps especially around the end of the fifteenth century/ beginning of the sixteenth (directly pre-reformation). It's really difficult to categorize periods, because artists, fashions, etc. generally continued from one to another. In many cases, the name of the ruler is a convenient classification-ie Elizabethan, but that is definitely country-specific. I'm not sure there is really an answer to this question. Michelle Powell-Smith wondering if she'll ever figure out these distinctions! On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > I was interested in Michelle's note. I was taught that for convenience, > 1492 (Europe - discovery of America) and 1487 (England - end of Wars of > Roses, beginning of Tudor dynasty) were the dividing dates between late > medieval and early modern history - which have more importance for the > historian than for people living at the time. We didn't use a term like > 'transitional' at all - after all, every period could be described as > transitional, and if you used it in a neutral context who would know which > period you were talking about? > > I've just purchased a book called 'Standards of Living in the Late Middle > Ages', which concentrates on the 14th and 15th century - 'Standards of > Living in the Transitional Age' doesn't sound half as interesting! Its by > Christopher Dyos BTW, and if I ever get it off my husband I gather its very > interesting! > > Caroline > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:57:04 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: "Horsehair braid" Hello Angela, Just an update on my advice to use "horsehair braid". I went to the fabric store today and picked some more up. Being ashamed that I did not know the actual name of the stuff, I peeked at the label and here is what I found.... It is actually called Hair Canvas. And as the label said, it is for "crisp shaping". The contents (are you ready for this?) are 57% cotton, 32% rayon, and 11% goat hair. That's right, GOAT HAIR. Personally, I don't want to know where they get the goat hair from. And even though I am a purist when it comes to recreating period costume styles and fabrics, I realize that we have to make due with what we have in these modern times. I will continue to use this stuff and will continue to spout its virtues. One side note, though. It says dryclean only. I hate that. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:41:48 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: "Horsehair braid" At 11:57 AM 11/1/96 -0800, Rose wrote: >Hello Angela, > >Just an update on my advice to use "horsehair braid". [snip] >It is actually called Hair Canvas. And as the label said, it is for >"crisp shaping". The contents (are you ready for this?) are 57% cotton, >32% rayon, and 11% goat hair. That's right, GOAT HAIR. > >Personally, I don't want to know where they get the goat hair from. [snip] >Rose > Actually, it's probably from the stiffer fibers of the mohair goat (yes, mohair, and cashmere for that matter, come from particular goat breeds). Both goats and sheep actually have a "double coat", with firm guard hairs and soft underhairs (modern sheep have been bred to have few, if any, guard hairs). Goats and sheep are very closely related, and spinning fibers have been collected from both for millenia. So the only "modern" fiber in the hair canvas is rayon. >From a spinning/weaving enthusiast, Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:11:26 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re[2]: copyright law etc.. New Text Item: Re: copyright law etc.. Let me understand this. We can't (or shouldn't) discuss the administration of the list, ie, how one gets one's own messages, but we can discuss copyright law. That doesn't pertain to costuming either. What are the guidelines for "proper topics?" I don't find either topic offensive and find both informative and helpful as a user of this list, but let's call a spade a spade (deck of cards) here. Stacey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: copyright law etc.. Author: Rlmarler@aol.com (Rebecca Marler) @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 11/1/96 12:46 PM There has been a "historical" problem with books being re-printed in the U.S. that were originally from Britain, with the authors not getting proper compensation during their own time. For example, Georgette Heyer. Another problem is that after so many years after an authors' death (I *think 50 years) their works are no longer protected even though an estate still exists that is managing their affairs. For example, JRR Tolkiens works are being published outside of his foundation and this can legally be done. Another example, is the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs and Beatrix Potter. For my own sake I try to buy works that are so-called "authorized" versions as I feel that the families of the authors should be reaping some of the money for their ancestor's works. Particularly Beatrix Potter who gave the rights to her works to the National Trust. When it comes to using materials out of books, if the book is out of print and has been published over 100 years ago than you can use the art out of the book. I think you can do this if the book is 50 years old out of print. To check out more about trademark and copyright protection, you can view the website with the U.S. Copyright Office. http://www.uspto.gov What I would like to know is how does the trademark for costumes work? For example, a design by Disney for Snow White; how is that protected since an "idea" can't be trademarked? Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:19:53 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Copyright law Stacey, We got onto the copyright topic because someone suggested reprinting British costume books. Robb and I both work in publishing. I was taking the suggestion under serious consideration and I think Robb might have been doing so also. But of course neither of us would wish to do anything illegal or unethical. I was hoping for information from a British attorney, which is hard to get in the US. But you are right, a discussion of copyright law does not belong on the h-costume list. Any attorneys who have free advice (also hard to get!) are welcome to contact me directly. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:31:56 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Hoop wire While I do not consider it ideal, metal packing strapping can be used for hoops in a pinch, and is easily available everywhere. If skirts are very heavy or wide, more than one layer of strapping will be needed in each channel. Such a hoop will tend tobe heavy. Much preferable is the plastic hoop wire available from Greenberg & Hammer in New York (toll-free 1-800-955-5135), a roll of which is 12 yards, and cost $9.85 in their 1994 catalogue. One roll is usually enough for a Spanish farthingale (moderate hoop skirt). Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:37:37 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re: Copyright law New Text Item: Copyright law But I do think the topic of copyright law belongs on h-costume, because it effects costuming books, especially those ones that are out-of-print we would so dearly want to have republished! It might affect someone who wants to makes copies to distribute, a la as Falconwood Press or reprint them a la Shep.. I was making a point. Some non-specific costuming topies DO belong on h-costume. Deciding which ones is another matter. I leave that up to the discretion of the list owner. Stacey (who also works in book publishing) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Copyright law Author: lavolta@BEST.COM (Frances Grimble) @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 11/1/96 3:19 PM Stacey, We got onto the copyright topic because someone suggested reprinting British costume books. Robb and I both work in publishing. I was taking the suggestion under serious consideration and I think Robb might have been doing so also. But of course neither of us would wish to do anything illegal or unethical. I was hoping for information from a British attorney, which is hard to get in the US. But you are right, a discussion of copyright law does not belong on the h-costume list. Any attorneys who have free advice (also hard to get!) are welcome to contact me directly. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:01:04 +1100 From: Wendy Purcell Subject: 20000 Years of Costume I have just stumbled across a copy of A History of Costume in the West, the book also published as 20,000 Years of Fashion, by Thames and Hudson. So what? Well, this is a new issue in soft cover, full size, un-abridged, and at almost half the price of the hardcover. -CHRISTOPHER BALLIS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:03:34 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Copyright law Stacey, There are indeeed official guidelines for what topics are suitable to discuss on h-costume. I no longer have a copy of them since I switched computers and mail systems. However, I believe the guidelines say the list focus on historic costume. Not on other types of sewing, or on reenactment in general, or on other peripherally related topics. If you also have lost your guidelines, I would suggest contacting Suzanne Hader, the list owner. Her address is smh@cs.brown.edu. As for reprints of costume books, even if a book is still covered by copyright that does not prevent its being reprinted, provided the publisher gets permission from and compensates the copyright owner. The real issue is whether the reprint will make money after all the printing and marketing expenses. The opinions of list members on what costume books they are longing to see reprinted might be an appropriate topic. But I honestly do not believe a discussion of copyright law in general is appropriate. Particularly since I don't think anyone other than an attorney can give reliable information. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:13:46 +1100 From: Wendy Purcell Subject: Blatant Australian Feast Plug Blatant Australian Feast Plug The Australian Costumers' Guild presents THE LONDON LOWLIFE'S FEAST, Saturday, 15th February, 1997, 6:30pm, $26 per head includes full meal, BYO alcohol. St Brigid's Hall, corner of Nicholson Street and Alexander Avenue, North Fitzroy, Victoria. Join the Australian Costumers' Guild in celebrating the home of Jack the Ripper, Sweeny Todd, Oliver Twist, and Dracula's last stand (before all the sequels). Thrill to the exploits of destitute Jane Austen heroines, join lovely ladies slumming it, or search out a busty wench to buy an orange or two. Looking for that right cotume idea? You might try Charles Dickens, Fanny by Gaslight, My Fair Lady, Hammer horror movies, Sherlock Holmes, Jekyll & Hyde, or HG Wells. What about Upstairs Downstairs, Flashman, Carmilla Karnstein, and Dick Turpin (just visiting)? Places like Soho, smells like the fish market (just kidding)... The London Lowlife's Feast, February 15th, Melbourne. For more information, contact the Australian Costumer's Guild at P.O. Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204; Tel. (03)9557 7088; E-mail. stilskin@netspace.net.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:39:43 GMT From: Mary Subject: Re. 19th C. Hair Book Does anyone have an address for Lacis (snail or E) or anywhere I could order "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th c." to be sent to me here in the UK. I would be able to pay by US dollar cheque (check?) Thanks Mary temple@globalnet.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:26:34 -0600 From: Kathy Whisler Subject: Re: Vestment Exhibition in Chicago The vestment exhibit at the Art Institute of Chicago that Sarah Davitt described will be up until January 12. I agree with her-- it has some really beautiful and interesting things in it. As she mentioned, the objects are well-lit and most of them are not behind glass. It is a good opportunity to look at the actual textiles up close: there is an embossed wool "velvet" as well as embossed satin (16th cent), fabulous voided velvets with gold looped pile, a 17th century surplice that is so elaborately pleated it would make Fortuny envious, many examples of opus anglicanum, and a German altarpiece (16th cent. if memory serves) with three-dimensional stuffed embroidered figures-- like 17th cent. stumpwork, but richer. I could go on, but it must be seen to really be appreciated. The earliest object I noticed was German white on white embroidery from 1300/1310, the most recent object is a handwoven cope from 1975: something for everyone. Textile-geeking again, Katharine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:04:58 PST From: Venus Envy Subject: Hair styles for many periods I'm looking for sources for styling *long* hair for all the periods I re-enact in - 1560-1950. I've mostly dealt with the issue by hiding my hair before, but I'm trying to keep the look more complete - I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter somehow. Any sources - all sources - would be wonderful. I can rarely find more than pictures - I need instructions too ! Maybe I'll just start collecting notes and publish my own... -heather meadows ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 31 Oct 1996 to 1 Nov 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 04 09:33:42 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA14469 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Nov 1996 06:01:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199611030501.AA14469@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4277; Sun, 03 Nov 96 00:01:05 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4608; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:01:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Nov 1996 to 2 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Civil War 2. HELP!!! (2) 3. Costume interest 4. Time periods 5. Jude the Obscure 6. 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses 7. Hair styles for many periods 8. Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses 9. Time periods (long) 10. leather source ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:46:25 +1100 From: Greg & Jocelyn House Subject: American Civil War I am what I believe is usually described as a 'newby' to the Historical costume list. I live in Canberra, Australia and am involved in historical reenactment mainly through several live steel groups, concentrating on two periods - early Viking particularly those from Iceland and also late 15th, early 16th century Italian. However I am also involved in the Costumers' Guild here and am interested in recreating costumes from the period of the American Civil War. While there are many excellent texts on military aspects of the War available here I have not come across any that cover the clothing of the period. My interests tend to lie with the costume of the northern states though I have friends who are also interested in those of the southern states. Does anyone have any recommendations on useful texts in this area? Thank you. Jocelyn House 5 Hensman St Latham ACT 2615 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:35:06 -0800 From: "b." Subject: HELP!!! We're staging a "community television" Dickens-style Christmas presentation (skits and musical numbers). Does anyone know of inexpensive (okay, REALLY cheap!) sources for men's and women's Dickens period (i.e. Christmas Carol) top hats, cut-away coats, etc.? All sources appreciated, pref. with some idea of price as we have (as usual) no real budget to speak of *sigh* Thanks and best of the season's wishes! Bill Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:38:21 -0800 From: Wayne Johnson Subject: Costume interest I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so knowledgable. I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and what you do with them after they are made? Wayne johnson100@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:52:49 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Re: Time periods What about the Victorian age? What dates would you give it? Kellym311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:19:21 -0800 From: Kendra Van Cleave Subject: Jude the Obscure so i went to see Jude (the movie version of Jude the Obscure), and of course, as we all are, was completelly inspired by the costuming of the film, and have decided i HAVE to have a dress a la Kate Winslet's in the movie. it appears the period of the movie is the late 1880s; the dresses are definitely lower middle class to working class. anyways, i have a couple of questions: 1. it looked like she was not wearing a bustle, and from what i've read of the period, at the end of this decade bustles went out of fashion for a few years. it looked to me like she was wearing a pettiocoat which had the fullness gathered in back, and the same with her skirt. is this correct? am i interpreting this right? 2. are the skirts of this period gored? it seemed like they were -- from what i could tell, they were pretty flat in front and had the fullness in pleats at the back. is this right? 3. the bodices were square necked and came down low on the hips -- should the bodice be longer in the back? is it usual for the bodices to close in front or in back, or does it vary? any other suggestions or pointers would be much appreciated! thanks, Kendra Van Cleave bambi@resort.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:10:13 -0500 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses Greetings all: There's an article in the magazine "Piecework" on the Eliza Lucas Pinckney sacque. I believe it's been referred to in a couple of costume books. She raised the silk herself in South Carolina, and had the fabric woven in England. A front and back view of the gown in included. There's also an article on "The Ingenious Miser's Purse" in the same issue (Nov/Dec 1996) including a 1887 crochet pattern. (Oh for a Regency pattern!) I have no connection with this publication, but I've been keeping an eye on it at my local magazine shop. It seemed like a likely source for history and "how-to" articles that would be useful for costume and accessories. The "Books in Review" section contained "Chatelaines: Utility to Glorious Extravagance", by Genevieve E. Cummins and Nerylla D. Taunton. Antique Collectors Clus, Suffok, England, distributed by Lacis, 3163 Adeline St., Berkeley, CA 94703, 1994. Hardbound, 311 pages, $69.50. ISBN 1-85148-206-2. Has anyone out there examined this book? I'm interested in "Regency" accessories, although it's my understanding that they were out of style, except for "ribbon" chatelaines worn by the labouring classes. Re: the "Victorian Age" - wouldn't that be the period of her reign, 1837- 1901 (???) I'm too lazy to verify that that right now. Good night! Sheridan ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:17:03 -0800 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Hair styles for many periods At 08:04 PM 11/1/96 PST, you wrote: - >I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's >when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women >kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter >somehow. > > Hi Heather! My sister is the Art Deco period enthusiast in our family, and she tells me that during the 1920's and 30's, many women, especially in Europe, didn't bob their hair, but simply set the front in waves and rolled the back into a chignon, French twist, or figure 8. The "Marcel waves" in the front can be achieved by wetting the hair down with hairspray, clipping it into place, and blow drying, then wetting it again, drying again, untill you acheive a rock-hard state. It feels disgusting but looks totally period. I managed to make my shoulder length, layered hair look 30's this way. Why don't you come over the hill some evening and we'll play beauty parlor? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:11:46 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses >Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 19:15:52 >To: Sheridan Alder & David Webb >From: Joan M Jurancich >Subject: Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses > >At 09:10 PM 11/2/96 -0500, Sheridan Alder & David Webb wrote: >>Greetings all: >[snip] The "Books in Review" section contained "Chatelaines: >>Utility to Glorious Extravagance", by Genevieve E. Cummins and >>Nerylla D. Taunton. Antique Collectors Clus, Suffok, England, distributed >>by Lacis, 3163 Adeline St., Berkeley, CA 94703, 1994. Hardbound, 311 pages, >>$69.50. ISBN 1-85148-206-2. Has anyone out there examined this book? >>I'm interested in "Regency" accessories, although it's my understanding >>that they were out of style, except for "ribbon" chatelaines worn by >>the labouring classes. >[snip] > >I have a copy of this book. It is marvelous! The authors are very clear about when the word "chatelaine" started to describe waist-hung accessories (c. 1838-9). But they start in Chapter 1 by describing waist-hung accessories from c.2000 B.C.E. to 1600; Chapter 2 covers the 16th & 17th centuries; Chapter 3 the 18th (the first good collection of color plates of actual! accessories). Chapter 4 is "The evolution of the true chatelaine, 1800-1840". Later chapters continue the decades until the 20th century. All in all, it's a VERY good reference book, with LOTS of CLEAR PICTURES of the real things, not just blurry photographs. > >Good hunting, > > Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:21:25 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Time periods (long) At 06:52 PM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >What about the Victorian age? What dates would you give it? >Kellym311@aol.com > When in London I kept asking this same question. The best answer I got was from the chair of fashion dept. and the curator of the Bath Museum of Costume, which was: 1837 (or 38) to 1901. The Victorian Era ran through several costume/fashion periods, the end of Romantic, Crinoline, Bustle and Fin de Seicle. But... I was dicussing costume time periods with Dr. Tara Maginnis, head costume instructor at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. The following are her comments regarding costume time periods: For example "Georgian", like "Victorian", is purely a distinction of a time period set by monarch's reigns in England, and is consequently technically irrelevant to all of costume history which did not occur on that little island. Dates used for "Rennaisance" are also country-based, and dependent on a distinction used by art historians. The Renaissance in Italy is over 100 years before the Northern European Renaissance, which in terms of art history, slightly predates the "English Renaissance". Then there is the thorny topic of "The Middle Ages" and "The Dark Ages" two perjorative terms used by Italian Renaissance folks to essentially write off all the art made "in the middle" ages between the Classical age and it's "rebirth" or Renaissance. And of course, this whole discussion is even narrow in that it only pays attention to what Europe is doing. So the possibilities for coming up with a subjective grouping of "periods" is endless. There are some time periods where Western European Rich people's clothes stay essentially stable for a big stretch of time like Women's dress in the "Empire" period, or the 1980's, where for over a decade the rate of major fashion change is extremely slow. There are others like the 1700-1780's where the changes are so gradual and even that you can draw them on a chart of "evolution", and fancy you have discovered a Darwinian theory of fashion. However, there are so many fun "transition periods" (ie. total chaos)like the French Revolution, WWI, and the 1970's, plus periods where what is worn in Spain bears as little relation ship to what is worn in Italy, or England or Poland, that it amazes me that any intelligent person ever has the temerity to declare any fixed timeline of even Western costume history. In a class syllibus, of course, one has to divide things up, simply in order to conduct a coherent slide lecture; but I make a point with my classes to let them know that these distinctions are merely my interpretation and not some kind of absract truth. Of course, most costume history classes center around teaching students vocabulary and "period" by rote, expecting students to spit out the same vocabulary lists and periods that the teacher handed out as Xeroxes at the beginnning of the semester. I circumspect to preface your class' list with the fact that it was a class list, and not a set of dictates written in stone. I too divide up my class syllibus (http://icecube.acf-lab.alaska.edu/~fftmm1/thr355.htm ) into periods, and I even make a list of one or two historical points I intend to make for each class, but I regularly get sidetracked because there are an infinite number of costume histories to tell, and if somebody in my class is more interested in one or another one can just stop to tell it. That is why my classes big assignments are in doing primary research. Hand a student a box of assorted old clothes from the 1900's and tell them to pick out one, that they have to prove what it is, and when it was worn, and they quickly learn that clothes, like the people who wore them, don't fall into neat, easy to peg, categories very often. That is not to say that there isn't a zeitgeist to the objects made at any given date, but that something like the zeitgeist of a period is still capable of tremendous variation. That is to say I think Imelda Marcos probably didn't have two pairs of shoes that were totally identical among her thousands... So I don't think it's possible to maintain any kind of static view of history, history isn't a fixed thing, it's our changing perception of the fragments of the past. The people living in "the Middle ages" didn't think they were living in the middle of anything, they were living at the end of the world "in the year of our Lord"--Anno Domini. We think we live "in the Common Era" 1996, but the Romans who were living through the year of Augustus's census didn't think they were living in the year 1. Even DATES are an egocentric point of view, not abstract realities of history! So I think coming up with absolute abstract periods for costume history is impractical. A working definition is all that anybody needs. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:42:03 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: leather source A while ago people posted some good mail-order sources for leather. I'm afraid I lost them. Would someone please repost these, either to the list or to me privately? Much appreciated! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS: Need I say that I do NOT need the name or address of Tandy? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:08:25 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: HELP!!! At 11:35 AM 11/2/96 -0800, you wrote: >We're staging a "community television" Dickens-style Christmas presentation >(skits and musical numbers). Does anyone know of inexpensive (okay, REALLY >cheap!) sources for men's and women's Dickens period (i.e. Christmas Carol) >top hats, cut-away coats, etc.? All sources appreciated, pref. with some >idea of price as we have (as usual) no real budget to speak of *sigh* >Thanks and best of the season's wishes! >Bill Dean > Where are you located? Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Nov 1996 to 2 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 04 09:33:44 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16828 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:00:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199611040500.AA16828@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5891; Mon, 04 Nov 96 00:00:40 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0299; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:00:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. patterns and clothes 2. Corset Sizes 3. Chicago Institute of Arts 4. Anyone have the Naalbinding packet? 5. A successful "prop" 6. Re. 19th C. Hair Book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:25:06 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: patterns and clothes I just found this web site. They have patterns and other things. They also custom make clothes. http://rampages.onramp.net/~lawsonda/mall/mmm_intro.html I have ordered anything from them and have know idea about there service. Kelly m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:26:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Corset Sizes On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, erin k. gault wrote: > Hello everybody. I was wondering if anybody knows or knows where I can > find various corset sizes from the 1860's and the 1890's. We have to do > projects in my Statistics class and I thought it would be interesting to > compare the two decades. I need at least thirty measurements from each > decade. I am not sure if this is something that I can find but I'm > trying! Thanks! > > ***************************************************************** There's a listing of some from a museum in England in Valerie Steele's _Eroticism in Dress_, which is, for my money, on of the best books I've ever read on the why of fashion. It has a fascinatingly thorough bibliography, and a very intelligent discussion on the perception of corsetting in the 19th C, for those interested. It's an incredibly well researched book, out of print, but a lot of libraries have it. Beth McMahon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:35:59 -0500 From: Annikki Weston Subject: Chicago Institute of Arts I'm sorry for posting this hear, but I've lost the messages that people have posted on the exhibit of clergy vestments at the Chicago Institute of Arts that's on this month. If I still had them, I'd mail directly to them. Just where is this museum in Chicago? Directions from the University of Chicago area would be a bonus, as that's where I'm visiting this weekend :). I know I could just figure it out on a map, but trusting my skills at that is a major leap of faith. Thanks in advance! Nikki Weston weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:10:10 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Anyone have the Naalbinding packet? Please excuse me for asking this again, but is there anyone who got the packet on Naalbinding that Tess was making copies of last month, who would be willing to make *ONE* copy for me? (Naalbinding is a technique that looks rather like knitting, but is worked with a sewing needle and short lengths of yarn.) I know there was much more demand for that information than Tess expected. I'd be happy to "take over" distributing copies to people with continental North American addresses, if I can get a copy myself. Is there someone who received one who would be willing to e-mail me privately and arrange for me to get one? I'll be happy to pay for copying and postage, of course. Thanks, Chris ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:10:56 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: A successful "prop" This is more "props" than "costume," but I just wanted to report -- now that I'm "digging out" from the Renaissance Faire season -- that we had a very successful "communal" needlework project in our guild yard this year. (I'm particularly pleased because whenI brought a "communal" needlework project to another guild, no one actually worked on it. I think what they really wanted was to TALK about working on it, rather than actually doing it ). However *this* one was a great success. This all got its start because someone in the guild found a large needlepoint frame for 45 cents (!) at a garage sale. And I had acquired a fair quantity of needlepoint yarn at a bargain price for another project that wound up never materializing. I had found an illustration in Cyril Bunt's _Tudor and Stuart Fabrics_ in the library (it's actually mostly embroidered pieces, many of which I hadn't seen before). I call it a "16th century UFO" (UnFinished Object) -- designs traced on the linen, but never embroidered. In the book, it's titled "Fig. 9. Sampler designs for embroidery, circa 1600; courtesy of Sir John Carew-Pole, Bart." There are 17 "slips" -- flowers with stem and leaves attached, a popular type of motif -- in three rows; the top row is flowers, the middle row fruits, the bottom row flowers again. The illustration photocopies very poorly, for some reason, but I am fortunate to have a scanner at work, and I found that by scanning the designs and playing with the contrast settings, I could get the lines to show up well enough to print out a copy I could trace from. I chose three "slips" (eglantine, pinks, borage) from the 17 pictured and enlarged them to what I think is about twice their original length and breadth, then spaced them out on a piece of 10-to-the-inch needlepoint canvas about 18" by 36" for a long cushion cover. (I figure the originals were likely worked about 20 stitches to the inch, so this seemed a reasonable compromise between 16th century authenticity and 20th century impatience.) I saw a good dozen people work on the needlepoint at one time or another -- including the guy who plays Sir Richard Grenville (!) -- and the first two "slips" (out of three) are more than half done. It will probably take us a few years to finish, but that's fine. It's good to have something fairly brainless to work on at the end of the day when we all tend to be exhausted. And besides, it's great "atmosphere" even when no one is working on it -- a nice colorful thing to have around. Even our youngest members liked working on it -- Kate and Terry Downward (12 and 4 respectively, playing the Earl of Pembroke's daughters Lady Katherine and Lady Anne Herbert). They are nice kids and fun to have around, especially since as the daughters of an Earl, they outrank most of us and we duly "reverance" (16th-century version of a curtsy) to them! "Lady Anne" in particular was extremely cute sitting at the frame all by herself -- she loves needlework, and while she didn't want to learn the tent stitch, did a very creditable running stitch along the outlines. I hope someone got a picture! ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:56:30 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Re. 19th C. Hair Book Mary wrote: > > Does anyone have an address for Lacis (snail or E) or anywhere I could order > "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th c." to be sent to me here > in the UK. I would be able to pay by US dollar cheque (check?) > > Thanks > > Mary > temple@globalnet.co.uk Dear Mary, The address for Lacis is 2982 Adeline Street Berkeley, CA 94703 (510) 843-7178 They will send you a catalog of their entire stock for $5 US. Hope this helps you and anyone else out there on H-Costume. Rose :~> ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 04 09:33:42 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA14469 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Nov 1996 06:01:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199611030501.AA14469@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4277; Sun, 03 Nov 96 00:01:05 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4608; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:01:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Nov 1996 to 2 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Civil War 2. HELP!!! (2) 3. Costume interest 4. Time periods 5. Jude the Obscure 6. 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses 7. Hair styles for many periods 8. Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses 9. Time periods (long) 10. leather source ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:46:25 +1100 From: Greg & Jocelyn House Subject: American Civil War I am what I believe is usually described as a 'newby' to the Historical costume list. I live in Canberra, Australia and am involved in historical reenactment mainly through several live steel groups, concentrating on two periods - early Viking particularly those from Iceland and also late 15th, early 16th century Italian. However I am also involved in the Costumers' Guild here and am interested in recreating costumes from the period of the American Civil War. While there are many excellent texts on military aspects of the War available here I have not come across any that cover the clothing of the period. My interests tend to lie with the costume of the northern states though I have friends who are also interested in those of the southern states. Does anyone have any recommendations on useful texts in this area? Thank you. Jocelyn House 5 Hensman St Latham ACT 2615 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:35:06 -0800 From: "b." Subject: HELP!!! We're staging a "community television" Dickens-style Christmas presentation (skits and musical numbers). Does anyone know of inexpensive (okay, REALLY cheap!) sources for men's and women's Dickens period (i.e. Christmas Carol) top hats, cut-away coats, etc.? All sources appreciated, pref. with some idea of price as we have (as usual) no real budget to speak of *sigh* Thanks and best of the season's wishes! Bill Dean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:38:21 -0800 From: Wayne Johnson Subject: Costume interest I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so knowledgable. I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and what you do with them after they are made? Wayne johnson100@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:52:49 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Re: Time periods What about the Victorian age? What dates would you give it? Kellym311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:19:21 -0800 From: Kendra Van Cleave Subject: Jude the Obscure so i went to see Jude (the movie version of Jude the Obscure), and of course, as we all are, was completelly inspired by the costuming of the film, and have decided i HAVE to have a dress a la Kate Winslet's in the movie. it appears the period of the movie is the late 1880s; the dresses are definitely lower middle class to working class. anyways, i have a couple of questions: 1. it looked like she was not wearing a bustle, and from what i've read of the period, at the end of this decade bustles went out of fashion for a few years. it looked to me like she was wearing a pettiocoat which had the fullness gathered in back, and the same with her skirt. is this correct? am i interpreting this right? 2. are the skirts of this period gored? it seemed like they were -- from what i could tell, they were pretty flat in front and had the fullness in pleats at the back. is this right? 3. the bodices were square necked and came down low on the hips -- should the bodice be longer in the back? is it usual for the bodices to close in front or in back, or does it vary? any other suggestions or pointers would be much appreciated! thanks, Kendra Van Cleave bambi@resort.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:10:13 -0500 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses Greetings all: There's an article in the magazine "Piecework" on the Eliza Lucas Pinckney sacque. I believe it's been referred to in a couple of costume books. She raised the silk herself in South Carolina, and had the fabric woven in England. A front and back view of the gown in included. There's also an article on "The Ingenious Miser's Purse" in the same issue (Nov/Dec 1996) including a 1887 crochet pattern. (Oh for a Regency pattern!) I have no connection with this publication, but I've been keeping an eye on it at my local magazine shop. It seemed like a likely source for history and "how-to" articles that would be useful for costume and accessories. The "Books in Review" section contained "Chatelaines: Utility to Glorious Extravagance", by Genevieve E. Cummins and Nerylla D. Taunton. Antique Collectors Clus, Suffok, England, distributed by Lacis, 3163 Adeline St., Berkeley, CA 94703, 1994. Hardbound, 311 pages, $69.50. ISBN 1-85148-206-2. Has anyone out there examined this book? I'm interested in "Regency" accessories, although it's my understanding that they were out of style, except for "ribbon" chatelaines worn by the labouring classes. Re: the "Victorian Age" - wouldn't that be the period of her reign, 1837- 1901 (???) I'm too lazy to verify that that right now. Good night! Sheridan ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:17:03 -0800 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Hair styles for many periods At 08:04 PM 11/1/96 PST, you wrote: - >I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's >when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women >kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter >somehow. > > Hi Heather! My sister is the Art Deco period enthusiast in our family, and she tells me that during the 1920's and 30's, many women, especially in Europe, didn't bob their hair, but simply set the front in waves and rolled the back into a chignon, French twist, or figure 8. The "Marcel waves" in the front can be achieved by wetting the hair down with hairspray, clipping it into place, and blow drying, then wetting it again, drying again, untill you acheive a rock-hard state. It feels disgusting but looks totally period. I managed to make my shoulder length, layered hair look 30's this way. Why don't you come over the hill some evening and we'll play beauty parlor? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:11:46 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses >Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 19:15:52 >To: Sheridan Alder & David Webb >From: Joan M Jurancich >Subject: Chatelaine book, was Re: 1753 gown in "Piecework" and miser's purses > >At 09:10 PM 11/2/96 -0500, Sheridan Alder & David Webb wrote: >>Greetings all: >[snip] The "Books in Review" section contained "Chatelaines: >>Utility to Glorious Extravagance", by Genevieve E. Cummins and >>Nerylla D. Taunton. Antique Collectors Clus, Suffok, England, distributed >>by Lacis, 3163 Adeline St., Berkeley, CA 94703, 1994. Hardbound, 311 pages, >>$69.50. ISBN 1-85148-206-2. Has anyone out there examined this book? >>I'm interested in "Regency" accessories, although it's my understanding >>that they were out of style, except for "ribbon" chatelaines worn by >>the labouring classes. >[snip] > >I have a copy of this book. It is marvelous! The authors are very clear about when the word "chatelaine" started to describe waist-hung accessories (c. 1838-9). But they start in Chapter 1 by describing waist-hung accessories from c.2000 B.C.E. to 1600; Chapter 2 covers the 16th & 17th centuries; Chapter 3 the 18th (the first good collection of color plates of actual! accessories). Chapter 4 is "The evolution of the true chatelaine, 1800-1840". Later chapters continue the decades until the 20th century. All in all, it's a VERY good reference book, with LOTS of CLEAR PICTURES of the real things, not just blurry photographs. > >Good hunting, > > Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:21:25 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Time periods (long) At 06:52 PM 11/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >What about the Victorian age? What dates would you give it? >Kellym311@aol.com > When in London I kept asking this same question. The best answer I got was from the chair of fashion dept. and the curator of the Bath Museum of Costume, which was: 1837 (or 38) to 1901. The Victorian Era ran through several costume/fashion periods, the end of Romantic, Crinoline, Bustle and Fin de Seicle. But... I was dicussing costume time periods with Dr. Tara Maginnis, head costume instructor at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. The following are her comments regarding costume time periods: For example "Georgian", like "Victorian", is purely a distinction of a time period set by monarch's reigns in England, and is consequently technically irrelevant to all of costume history which did not occur on that little island. Dates used for "Rennaisance" are also country-based, and dependent on a distinction used by art historians. The Renaissance in Italy is over 100 years before the Northern European Renaissance, which in terms of art history, slightly predates the "English Renaissance". Then there is the thorny topic of "The Middle Ages" and "The Dark Ages" two perjorative terms used by Italian Renaissance folks to essentially write off all the art made "in the middle" ages between the Classical age and it's "rebirth" or Renaissance. And of course, this whole discussion is even narrow in that it only pays attention to what Europe is doing. So the possibilities for coming up with a subjective grouping of "periods" is endless. There are some time periods where Western European Rich people's clothes stay essentially stable for a big stretch of time like Women's dress in the "Empire" period, or the 1980's, where for over a decade the rate of major fashion change is extremely slow. There are others like the 1700-1780's where the changes are so gradual and even that you can draw them on a chart of "evolution", and fancy you have discovered a Darwinian theory of fashion. However, there are so many fun "transition periods" (ie. total chaos)like the French Revolution, WWI, and the 1970's, plus periods where what is worn in Spain bears as little relation ship to what is worn in Italy, or England or Poland, that it amazes me that any intelligent person ever has the temerity to declare any fixed timeline of even Western costume history. In a class syllibus, of course, one has to divide things up, simply in order to conduct a coherent slide lecture; but I make a point with my classes to let them know that these distinctions are merely my interpretation and not some kind of absract truth. Of course, most costume history classes center around teaching students vocabulary and "period" by rote, expecting students to spit out the same vocabulary lists and periods that the teacher handed out as Xeroxes at the beginnning of the semester. I circumspect to preface your class' list with the fact that it was a class list, and not a set of dictates written in stone. I too divide up my class syllibus (http://icecube.acf-lab.alaska.edu/~fftmm1/thr355.htm ) into periods, and I even make a list of one or two historical points I intend to make for each class, but I regularly get sidetracked because there are an infinite number of costume histories to tell, and if somebody in my class is more interested in one or another one can just stop to tell it. That is why my classes big assignments are in doing primary research. Hand a student a box of assorted old clothes from the 1900's and tell them to pick out one, that they have to prove what it is, and when it was worn, and they quickly learn that clothes, like the people who wore them, don't fall into neat, easy to peg, categories very often. That is not to say that there isn't a zeitgeist to the objects made at any given date, but that something like the zeitgeist of a period is still capable of tremendous variation. That is to say I think Imelda Marcos probably didn't have two pairs of shoes that were totally identical among her thousands... So I don't think it's possible to maintain any kind of static view of history, history isn't a fixed thing, it's our changing perception of the fragments of the past. The people living in "the Middle ages" didn't think they were living in the middle of anything, they were living at the end of the world "in the year of our Lord"--Anno Domini. We think we live "in the Common Era" 1996, but the Romans who were living through the year of Augustus's census didn't think they were living in the year 1. Even DATES are an egocentric point of view, not abstract realities of history! So I think coming up with absolute abstract periods for costume history is impractical. A working definition is all that anybody needs. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:42:03 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: leather source A while ago people posted some good mail-order sources for leather. I'm afraid I lost them. Would someone please repost these, either to the list or to me privately? Much appreciated! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS: Need I say that I do NOT need the name or address of Tandy? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:08:25 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: HELP!!! At 11:35 AM 11/2/96 -0800, you wrote: >We're staging a "community television" Dickens-style Christmas presentation >(skits and musical numbers). Does anyone know of inexpensive (okay, REALLY >cheap!) sources for men's and women's Dickens period (i.e. Christmas Carol) >top hats, cut-away coats, etc.? All sources appreciated, pref. with some >idea of price as we have (as usual) no real budget to speak of *sigh* >Thanks and best of the season's wishes! >Bill Dean > Where are you located? Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Nov 1996 to 2 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 04 09:33:44 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16828 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:00:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199611040500.AA16828@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5891; Mon, 04 Nov 96 00:00:40 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0299; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:00:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. patterns and clothes 2. Corset Sizes 3. Chicago Institute of Arts 4. Anyone have the Naalbinding packet? 5. A successful "prop" 6. Re. 19th C. Hair Book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:25:06 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: patterns and clothes I just found this web site. They have patterns and other things. They also custom make clothes. http://rampages.onramp.net/~lawsonda/mall/mmm_intro.html I have ordered anything from them and have know idea about there service. Kelly m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:26:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Corset Sizes On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, erin k. gault wrote: > Hello everybody. I was wondering if anybody knows or knows where I can > find various corset sizes from the 1860's and the 1890's. We have to do > projects in my Statistics class and I thought it would be interesting to > compare the two decades. I need at least thirty measurements from each > decade. I am not sure if this is something that I can find but I'm > trying! Thanks! > > ***************************************************************** There's a listing of some from a museum in England in Valerie Steele's _Eroticism in Dress_, which is, for my money, on of the best books I've ever read on the why of fashion. It has a fascinatingly thorough bibliography, and a very intelligent discussion on the perception of corsetting in the 19th C, for those interested. It's an incredibly well researched book, out of print, but a lot of libraries have it. Beth McMahon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:35:59 -0500 From: Annikki Weston Subject: Chicago Institute of Arts I'm sorry for posting this hear, but I've lost the messages that people have posted on the exhibit of clergy vestments at the Chicago Institute of Arts that's on this month. If I still had them, I'd mail directly to them. Just where is this museum in Chicago? Directions from the University of Chicago area would be a bonus, as that's where I'm visiting this weekend :). I know I could just figure it out on a map, but trusting my skills at that is a major leap of faith. Thanks in advance! Nikki Weston weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:10:10 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Anyone have the Naalbinding packet? Please excuse me for asking this again, but is there anyone who got the packet on Naalbinding that Tess was making copies of last month, who would be willing to make *ONE* copy for me? (Naalbinding is a technique that looks rather like knitting, but is worked with a sewing needle and short lengths of yarn.) I know there was much more demand for that information than Tess expected. I'd be happy to "take over" distributing copies to people with continental North American addresses, if I can get a copy myself. Is there someone who received one who would be willing to e-mail me privately and arrange for me to get one? I'll be happy to pay for copying and postage, of course. Thanks, Chris ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:10:56 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: A successful "prop" This is more "props" than "costume," but I just wanted to report -- now that I'm "digging out" from the Renaissance Faire season -- that we had a very successful "communal" needlework project in our guild yard this year. (I'm particularly pleased because whenI brought a "communal" needlework project to another guild, no one actually worked on it. I think what they really wanted was to TALK about working on it, rather than actually doing it ). However *this* one was a great success. This all got its start because someone in the guild found a large needlepoint frame for 45 cents (!) at a garage sale. And I had acquired a fair quantity of needlepoint yarn at a bargain price for another project that wound up never materializing. I had found an illustration in Cyril Bunt's _Tudor and Stuart Fabrics_ in the library (it's actually mostly embroidered pieces, many of which I hadn't seen before). I call it a "16th century UFO" (UnFinished Object) -- designs traced on the linen, but never embroidered. In the book, it's titled "Fig. 9. Sampler designs for embroidery, circa 1600; courtesy of Sir John Carew-Pole, Bart." There are 17 "slips" -- flowers with stem and leaves attached, a popular type of motif -- in three rows; the top row is flowers, the middle row fruits, the bottom row flowers again. The illustration photocopies very poorly, for some reason, but I am fortunate to have a scanner at work, and I found that by scanning the designs and playing with the contrast settings, I could get the lines to show up well enough to print out a copy I could trace from. I chose three "slips" (eglantine, pinks, borage) from the 17 pictured and enlarged them to what I think is about twice their original length and breadth, then spaced them out on a piece of 10-to-the-inch needlepoint canvas about 18" by 36" for a long cushion cover. (I figure the originals were likely worked about 20 stitches to the inch, so this seemed a reasonable compromise between 16th century authenticity and 20th century impatience.) I saw a good dozen people work on the needlepoint at one time or another -- including the guy who plays Sir Richard Grenville (!) -- and the first two "slips" (out of three) are more than half done. It will probably take us a few years to finish, but that's fine. It's good to have something fairly brainless to work on at the end of the day when we all tend to be exhausted. And besides, it's great "atmosphere" even when no one is working on it -- a nice colorful thing to have around. Even our youngest members liked working on it -- Kate and Terry Downward (12 and 4 respectively, playing the Earl of Pembroke's daughters Lady Katherine and Lady Anne Herbert). They are nice kids and fun to have around, especially since as the daughters of an Earl, they outrank most of us and we duly "reverance" (16th-century version of a curtsy) to them! "Lady Anne" in particular was extremely cute sitting at the frame all by herself -- she loves needlework, and while she didn't want to learn the tent stitch, did a very creditable running stitch along the outlines. I hope someone got a picture! ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:56:30 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Re. 19th C. Hair Book Mary wrote: > > Does anyone have an address for Lacis (snail or E) or anywhere I could order > "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th c." to be sent to me here > in the UK. I would be able to pay by US dollar cheque (check?) > > Thanks > > Mary > temple@globalnet.co.uk Dear Mary, The address for Lacis is 2982 Adeline Street Berkeley, CA 94703 (510) 843-7178 They will send you a catalog of their entire stock for $5 US. Hope this helps you and anyone else out there on H-Costume. Rose :~> ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Nov 05 10:19:37 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23614 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 5 Nov 1996 06:04:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199611050504.AA23614@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8075; Tue, 05 Nov 96 00:02:55 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9369; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:02:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 490 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Time Periods 2. Lacis web site 3. Costume interest (6) 4. Time periods 5. Hat Customs (2) 6. Mrs. Rudolph's Buttons Exhibit 7. Costumes! Costumes! (fwd) 8. Harlequin Clown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:38:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Time Periods I don't mean to be difficult but I don't recognize all the time periods which were given as English. I've never heard of the late medieval period described as gothic, for example - and that's my main period. Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:06:28 -0500 From: "J.Haug, Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" Subject: Re: Lacis web site At 05:56 PM 11/3/96 -0800, you wrote: >Mary wrote: >> >> Does anyone have an address for Lacis (snail or E) or anywhere I could order >> "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th c." to be sent to me here >> in the UK. I would be able to pay by US dollar cheque (check?) >> >> Thanks >> >> Mary >> temple@globalnet.co.uk ================================================== >Dear Mary, Lacis has a web site at Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:28:13 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Costume interest On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Wayne Johnson wrote: > I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and > what you do with them after they are made? Errol Flynn. It's all his fault. I loved watching his movies, and found I wanted almost everything Olivia deHavilland wore. (Except that awful lame thing in Robin Hood) So I played dress up a lot. And when I wasn't satisfied with the results of combining modern clothes to look like something vaguely historical, I taught myself to sew. Then I discovered the Renfaire phenomenon, still without a clue toward accuracy, still basing it all on movies. I blush now to think of what I made and wore (a sleeveless spandex 'medieval' dress...ugh) And then I discovered the SCA (and no, I'm not going to get into bashing/championing here). The SCA was the next step, and it introduced me to the idea of accuracy--those who did research and constructed detailed, accurate garments looked STUNNING. I wanted into that world. So I adopted a skin-out accuracy standard for myself. My costume book collection now beats anything my local university library offers. And I began volunteering for museums like Plimoth Plantation (in the Boston area) and Strawbery Banke (in southern NH). I learned a lot--and I'm still learning. It's grand! It's even led me to a career change, and I'm working on a Master's so I can enter the museum world. And what do I do with all my costumes? The old ones, the ones that no longer meet my standards, I pass on to others who are just starting out or, if they're bad enough, I mercifully dispose of. The rest--well, there's this walk-in closet in the guest room....My only venue for wearing them is currently the SCA; I'd love to find other outlets. Especially for periods not covered by the SCA, as I'm getting more into Victorian gowns and would also love a chance to do early 1800s (empire). Not much to be had in the Northeast, though... On to the next project! Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:27:01 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Costume interest > On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Wayne Johnson wrote: > > I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and > > what you do with them after they are made? > I can't quite recall. Before I discovered costuming, I used to actively dislike sewing; but then I discovered renfairs, and (like Astrida) blush in shame to recall my first attempts at period costume...a velour cotehardie that zips up the back comes to mind...then I was lucky enough to take an actual class in historical costuming and patterning, which not only taught the basics of pattern drafting but taught things like draping, creating a pattern from iconographical evidence, things to keep in mind like differences in sillhouette, etc., and I was off and running. Like Astrida, the SCA was what inspired me most. Every time I went to an event I came back with more fabric for the Pile and at least 3 new costume ideas. I did the opposite of most people I know and started with Elizabethan. Only recently have I started working back and trying my hand at Italian Ren, Gothic, etc. I'm also starting to explore 18th century costume, but need to find a group that does 18th century re-enactment before I can justify all the work, cost and effort of a robe anglaise with underpinnings. Drea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:57:45 -0600 From: Deb Subject: Re: Costume interest > and >what you do with them after they are made? Wear them. Store them. Cherish them. Never give them away, even when they no longer fit .... Wear them to Halloween parties. Wear them to WORK on Halloween (any excuse will do). deb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:19:11 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Time periods Kirk Albrecht M311 wrote: > > What about the Victorian age? What dates would you give it? Since Victoria ruled from 1837 up to 1901 the entire period could be considered "Victorian" (when discussing England at least :-)), but I so often see the term used to describe everything from late 19th cent. through the ninteen-teens. It's as if the era named for her started about 1880 or '90 and ended about 1920! Her glory days as a fashion trend setter pretty much ended after Prince Albert died and she never gave up mourning attire. This did do wonders for the makers of crape, bombazine, jet jewelry, and other mourning related products... I find it odd that the "Crinoline" era starts in 1840 and ends in 1870. I can believe (by a stretch) 1850 to 1870, only for the convenience of round numbers, but not in a fashion sense. Early attempts at hoops were attempted before the first practical metal cage was patented in 1857(8?), but at least skirts were getting fuller by the early '50's. On the other end of the period, hoops would be quite dowdy by 1870, but some women resisted giving up hoops as they felt the shape of their legs would be too 'exposed'. :-) Just my $.02 worth. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:52:44 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Hat Customs I hope no one is offended by this slightly off-topic question, but I thought this would be a good group to ask. (I know there are some millners out there) My question is about the custom of men taking their hats off indoors. When did this custom come about? How has it been observed by various classes or by civilians vs. military? I am specifically interested in America (more specifically in the South). Thanks! -- Dale A. Loberger "GIS Solutions for Tennessee" ESRI - Charlotte, 8000 Corporate Ctr Dr, Ste 111, Charlotte, NC 28226 Phone: 704-541-9810 Fax: 704-541-7620 Website: http://www.esri.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:36:53 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Costume interest >> On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Wayne Johnson wrote: >> I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, >>and >>what you do with them after they are made? When I was about six, I asked mom if I could cut up an old pillowcase and she said yes. I cut out neck and arm holes and put red duct tape in a cross on the front and sat down with a tin foil sword to watch "King Richard and the Crusaders" on tv (an awful film but it inspired me at the time.) Even though I was a girl, I really wanted a suit of armor. I adored costume flix, pirates, crusades, 30's gowns, frothy, fluffy gowns worn by Jeanette McDonald, Loretta Young or Dina Shore sweeping into a room with yards of tulle.... I started sewing gowns for my dolls during the Miss America pageant. (Yes, watching grass grow was as exciting as it got in the 50's in rural Ohio.) I'd go to the library to look at Vogue magazines--Jean Shrimpton, Suzy Kendall, the incredible clothes and outlandish hair. I learned to sew and made all my own clothes in junior and senior high. I liked theatrical touches like butterfly sleeves or ribbons. Of course, the kids at school made terrible fun of me. On "dress down day" (i.e. wear blue jeans to school). I would come in costume and was almost run out one year when I wore a "granny" dress. Small minds. Things accummulate in the closet and every time I move, I give some away to neighbors for next Halloween but I'd keep the best. The first "real" costume was a Tudor but I had no place to wear it. I went to the local Renaissance Festival in the 70's and within a few years developed friendships and joined a group doing 17th century because their standards were high and I was learning more. I have a costume/jewelry book collection my library wants me to donate. (Dream on. I know how many of those books get ripped off.) I recut some of the old costumes. I have closets full of costumes I can't bear to part with, I give some to kids for dress up. The original pieces I collected over the years I donated to a small museum to start a collection. I think I was born with an interest in costume. I'm invariably in costume in photographs as a kid, even if only a draped sash and a dramatic expression. I can't explain it but it's wonderful. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:44:38 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Costume interest You've got it exactly right! I wore my velvet Victorians on Halloween, and got rave reviews! It wasso great to have an excuse to wear something that elegant-looking. (Just a street-style skirt and jacket, but still . . . ) creating them is half the fun. though! =+) YIS NSN Deb 11/04/96 11:36 AM To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME @ SMTP cc: Subject: Re: Costume interest > and >what you do with them after they are made? Wear them. Store them. Cherish them. Never give them away, even when they no longer fit .... Wear them to Halloween parties. Wear them to WORK on Halloween (any excuse will do). deb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:56:43 -0500 From: PBearish@AOL.COM Subject: Mrs. Rudolph's Buttons Exhibit I was fortunate enough to visit the exhibit at The Ohio State University this past weekend. If any of you are in the Columbus, Ohio area between now and December 7, please make a point to stop by the Main Library on The Ohio State University campus to see her wonderful collection. And while you are there, also visit Campbell Hall, the College of Human Ecology, to see their new historic costume museum. Also a wonderful exhibit! Thank you Charles Kleibacker, because I am sure you were very influential in getting that museum in place! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:53:42 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: Costumes! Costumes! (fwd) I am passing this along for Ms. Corley. Please reply to her, not to me. thanks, suzanne ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:43:30 -0500 (EST) From: Sally Corley - FSDS/F94 To: smh@cs.brown.edu Subject: Costumes! Costumes! Hello, my name is Sally Corley. I am a fourth year apparel design student at Ryerson Polytechnic University. I am currently researching historical costume for my collection analysis report. It would be greatly appreciated if you could spare a few moments of your time to answer these questions on historical costume. The completion of this questionnaire will also alow me to complete a collection of accurate historical costumes for my final year project. 1) Please state your job title: -------------------------------------- 2) Put an "X" beside any or all types of costumes that you or your company produces. Contemproary __ Dance __ Fantasy __ Period __ Specify if other ____ 3) Put an "X" beside any or all types of mediums by which your costumes are shown. Theater __ Opera __ Television __ Motion Picture __ Specify if other __ 4) If in question number 3 you checked more then one medium, are the same costumes used for the checked mediums? (Put an "X" beside one) Always __ Sometimes __ Never __ 5) If in question number 3 you checked theatre and motion picture, would the same costumes be used? (Put an "X" beside one) Always __ Sometimes __ Never __ 6) Do you feel that period costumes' are in demand? (Put an "X" beside one) Very much __ Somewhat __ Not at all __ 7) Do you feel that period costumes' are in demand for use in theatrical productions? (Put an "X" beside one) Very much __ Somewhat __ Not at all __ 8) Have you noticed an increase of demand for historical costumes in the last 5 years? (Put an "X" beside one) Very much __ Somewhat __ Not at all __ 9) How important is accuracy when producing period costumes? (Put an "X" beside one) Very much __ Somewhat __ Not at all __ 10) Rate the following components of period costume from 6 to 1 in which you feel accuracy is the most important, to the least important. (6 being the most important and 1 being the least) Cut __ Colour __ Details __ Fabrication __ Construction __ Accessories __ 11) Approximatley how much would you spend to produce an ELABORATE 15th century costume. (Complete with headdress and coresponding clothes, including fabric and labour) (Put an "X" beside one) Less then $1000 __ $2001-$2500 __ $1001-$1500 __ $2501-$3000 __ $1501-$2000 __ More than $3001 __ Thank-you for participation in this questionnaire. Any other comments you have would be greatly appreciated. Please E-mail the completed questionnaire to me at: scorley@acs.ryerson.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:05:13 -0600 From: marcia Subject: Re: Costume interest I've been interested in Fantasy and the Early History (Greek, Roman, = Dark Ages and Middle Ages) since being introduced to them through school = and reading and later TV/Movies. In college I started attending Science = Fiction and Fantasy Conventions and I started making Fantasy and = Historical Costumes to wear to them. Mostly I did Fantasy Costumes = (Unicorn, Satyr, Dryad and Mermaid) and one Norman Gown. Later I = discovered the Renn Faires and starting making Faire outfits, usually = simple Tudor outfits. Then I joined the SCA and started experimenting = with costumes from different time periods in the Middle Ages for my = husband and me. Just recently, my husband, some friends and I started a = medieval acting troop and were able to perform at the Alabama Renn = Faire. We spent a lot of time making costumes for our performances. = Most of my costumes have been fairly simple, since I'm still an amateur = at sewing. I also have enjoyed this list and have learned a lot. Marcia White ---------- From: Wayne Johnson[SMTP:johnson100@ANDORRA-C.IT.EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, November 02, 1996 1:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Costume interest I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so knowledgable. I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, = and what you do with them after they are made? Wayne johnson100@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:46:01 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Hat Customs Dale Loberger wrote: > My question is about the custom of men taking their hats off indoors. > When did this custom come about? How has it been observed by various > classes or by civilians vs. military? I can't say when it came about since it was firmly established by the time of the American Civil War, but I expect it has a long history at least in court and church applications as a sign of respect to uncover before higher authority (God and God appointed royalty.) Based on period engravings, period etiquette books, period military regulations, and continuing usage in my lifetime (starting before the "anything goes" attitude of the 1960's!) I offer the following info appropriate at least for the US during the mid to late 1800's. Gentlemen remove their hats when entering a smaller or private building (home, small businesses, church, etc.) It is acceptable to leave them on when in larger indoor public spaces when removing one's hat would be an awkward inconvienience such as lobbies, etc. but once a man enters an office, theater seating area, or where ever arrangements for placing hats, etc. are available. A gentleman should remove his hat when speaking to a lady or anyone else deserving of such respectful attention. (If outside, formally lifting and replacing the hat is sufficient to show respect in most cases.) The only time a military man would follow other rules regarding hats is if he is on duty and "under arms" (i.e. wearing side arms as part of his responsibilities such as for guard duty, etc. In this case his hat is part of his uniform and removing his hat would potentially interfere with his duty to protect who or whatever he is guarding. If anyone has other information on this topic, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Period etiquette is one of my areas of interest. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:23:37 -0500 From: REVUPNGO@AOL.COM Subject: Harlequin Clown Hi all - I'm making a Harlequin costume for a commercial, and wonder if there are any distinguishing features that are absolutely neccesary to the portrayal. For instance, my research shows (sometimes) a braid, or tape trim running down the outside seam. Most of my books show a rather tight fitting pant and jacket-- True form? Thanks so much. Dollye Elkins Dorris ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Nov 06 18:56:38 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA00925 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 6 Nov 1996 06:04:26 +0100 Message-Id: <199611060504.AA00925@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0452; Wed, 06 Nov 96 00:04:16 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7566; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:04:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:04:10 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Nov 1996 to 5 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 17 messages totalling 542 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Costume interest (2) 2. naalbinding 3. Naalbinding 4. H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 (2) 5. FWD>Undelivered mail 6. 1880 Fashion tips (fwd) (2) 7. Hat Customs 8. cotton gauze, and web page 9. 1770's bum roll (2) 10. DRAMA 11. leather source 12. men with/without hats 13. Can you suggest..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:09:05 +0500 From: Ann Orr Subject: Re: Costume interest >I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so >knowledgable. > >I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >what you do with them after they are made? Good question, Wayne. What got me started. Well, I spent my time after school in the Drama Club. Part of acting is the costumes. They are a part of each character. What they wear, how they wear it and when they would wear a particular outfit. It contributes to bringing a character alive. My SO and I started off simply adding patches and badges to shirts for a 'military' look. Something to wear around the halls at SF Conventions. We 'graduated' from that sort of thing very quickly and have since designed a few costumes most of which have been presented at Costume Cons. Ron designs the heads for all our furry costumes and I sew up the bodysuits. 'Romeo' [a porcupine] and 'D.D. Kitty' [a grey cat] are, so far, the only ones we've worn in parades. My historical interests are mainly from this century - 20's to present day. Though I haven't had the chance to make anything, yet. I've a special interest in Erte's work. There's a stack of photocopies from various books of his designs sitting on my shelf here. When I find the time I fulling intend to complete the Erte project I started a couple of years ago. Having 2 kids often makes it harder for me to get to what I'd _like_ to be doing. What to I do with them afterwards? We have had occasion to wear most of our costumes more than two or three times. When they start to look a little worn around the edges we 'recycle' what we can of the fabrics, trims, etc. into new costumes. In some cases the costumes can be combined to give them a 'new' look. Lone Heart, lneheart@vianet.on.ca So many ideas, so little time! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:35:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth W Mcpherson Subject: naalbinding I am interested in any material you have regarding naalbinding. I have been trying some experiments since my visit to Jorvik last year where Zi saw the "Coppergate sock". Thanks, Ealasaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:37:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Naalbinding Tess has kindly sent me the information on naalbinding. Anyone in the UK who would like a copy, would you please send me an s.a.e. large enough to take A4 paper, with 38p of stamps. Sally Ann Chandler 49, Washington Grove Bentley Doncaster DN5 9RJ and I'll send the information on to you! Best wishes, Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:15:00 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 > Subject: Re: Costume interest > > On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Wayne Johnson wrote: > > I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and > > what you do with them after they are made? Science Fiction Conventions! I had been entering costumes in SF/Fantasy Con Masquerades for a couple of years. My area of interest was always more Fantasy than SF, and a lot of Fantasy stuff has vaguely medieval (or other historical) settings. Strangely enough, however, only my first costume reflected this interest, a mage (red velvet, floor length robe, cloak and hood - adapted from a shapeless dress pattern and "winging it" for the rest). The gold skin, white hair and asthmatic voice were incidental. I fell in with a bad crowd, and got involved with organising Masque the first British Costume Convention. Some of those involved were in a "medieval" society, and I made myself some sewn hose (skin tight "Kermit green" wool crepe, bias cut) and bought a velvet Italian Renaissance doublet from a BBC costume sale to wear to one of their events. I was hooked. I have dipped into several periods/places covered by the group (500 - 1603/no geographical restrictions) and have, at times, shamelessly mix-and-matched sleeves, bodies, leg coverings and fabrics from different periods and places. An extreme case for the benefit of those like me who <> stick strictly to a given period. A *bright* orange (1970's curtains) brocade Renaissance doublet with huge, elaborately dagged, houpellande sleeves, a matching codpiece, ankle boots and liripipe hood/shoulder-cape. Add a lining of calico, dyed fucia (showing in the dagged turnbacks of the sleeves, hood and boots), and matching wool-crepe hose and bows fastening the lot together. The girl who was getting rif of the curtains (because she hated them) was certainly surprized when I first wore it! Others, like my English Civil War kit for Sealed Knot events, are more accurate, but I'll never subscribe to the "correct fibres and dyes" level of accuracy in my costuming. I make most of 'em out of old curtains and very cheap fabrics, and often get the silhouette right if not the fibres and/or cut. I do other periods too, as fancy/occasion dictates, and *find* places to wear them. A gothic ball, an Edwardian dinner party or Murder Mystery event, a Victorian Vampire live role-play or a Costume Guild UK visit to an historic location. Then there's always hall-costume and Masquerades at SF/Fantasy and costume Conventions. I'm lucky, I can get away with wearing quite a bit of it to work. My "mundane" clothes are considered outlandish by most peoples' standards so the historical and SF costumes aren't anything special by comparison. My collection is depeleted. I gained a much needed 3stone over the last three years so have found new homes for a lot of the stuff that no longer fits and can't be altered. Horror of horrors, now I have to make a whole lot of new costumes to fill the gaps :D Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:53:46 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: FWD>Undelivered mail Mail*Link=A8 SMTP FWD>Undelivered mail Mail*Link( SMTP FWD>RE>Hat Customs I can't say when it came about since it was firmly established by the time of the American Civil War, but I expect it has a long history at least in court and church applications as a sign of respect to uncover before higher authority (God and God appointed royalty.) Gentlemen remove their hats when entering a smaller or private building (home, small businesses, church, etc.) It is acceptable to leave them on when in larger indoor public spaces when removing one's hat would be an awkward inconvienience such as lobbies, etc. but once a man enters an office, theater seating area, or where ever arrangements for placing hats, etc. are available. A gentleman should remove his hat when speaking to a lady or anyone else deserving of such respectful attention. (If outside, formally lifting and replacing the hat is sufficient to show respect in most cases.)>>>> Growing up in Texas and having the cowboys regularly doffing their hats, = I've always been intriqued by the fact that men have to remove their hats in t= he "presence of higher authority", ie. church, etc., but women do not. Does this mean that women are a higher authority? ;-) Seriously though, my suspicion is that it's more a way of reinforcing female inferiority. Aft= er all, I suspect the reason women didn't have to do it is because their hai= r was always considered an erogenous zone and for them to uncover it would = be most unseemly. Probably why they wore so many hat pins, it made it that = much harder to remove the hat. Just my (admittedly biased) opinion. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:51:34 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: 1880 Fashion tips (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 12:45:00 +0200 From: Ms Louise Walton To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: 1880 Fashion tips Hi Andrew I'm performing in 'The Importance of Being Earnest' by Oscar Wilde and am playing Lady Bracknell. Do you know of Internet sights where I can get some idea of the 1880 fashion? Does your mailing list deal with theatrical costumes in that period and sources for these supplies in Cape Town? Regards Louise Walton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:00:55 -0800 From: Fred Struthers Subject: Hat Customs Dale Loberger wrote: > > My question is about the custom of men taking their hats off indoors. > When did this custom come about? How has it been observed by various > classes or by civilians vs. military? I am specifically interested in > America (more specifically in the South). I looked up "doffing" in Colin McDowell's excellent book, "HATS: Status, Style & Glamour". He tells us that doffing the hat is a sign of respect dating back centuries to the court as a show of respect toward the King, and then in the wider world toward any of one's betters. In the 19th century one doffed his hat became very important and signified various things like satus or personality. Doffing the hat was of course a mark of respect toward a lady and so doing so when entering a house was necessary in deference to the lady of the house. Regarding American street etiquette I quote from Martine's Handbook & Vulgarisms in Converstation (1866 republished by RL Shep 1988): Never to a lady in the street, neither be satisfied with touching your hat, -- it is a courtesty her sex demands. Fred Struthers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:26:42 -0600 From: Robin Findlay Subject: Re: 1880 Fashion tips (fwd) There is a "costume Page" on the internet. use a web searcher and type in Costume Page . There you will find listings of places to look for pictures that can be downloaded. Best Wishes Robin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Walter Robin Findlay Phone: 816-271-4452 Associate Professor of Theatre E-mail:findlay@griffon.mwsc.edu Missouri Western State College Fax: 816-232-0978 4525 Downs Drive Voice Mail: 816-387-3117 St. Joseph, Mo. 64507 is that all there is........ peggy lee ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Gretchen M Beck wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 12:45:00 +0200 > From: Ms Louise Walton > To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: 1880 Fashion tips > > Hi Andrew > > I'm performing in 'The Importance of Being Earnest' by Oscar Wilde and > am playing Lady Bracknell. Do you know of Internet sights where I can > get some idea of the 1880 fashion? Does your mailing list deal with > theatrical costumes in that period and sources for these supplies in > Cape Town? > > Regards > Louise Walton > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:39:07 -0700 From: Deborah Wooten Subject: cotton gauze, and web page Hi all, Since this is a first posting, I'd like to say greetings to everyone! I am looking for cotton Gauze wholesale from a mill, anyone have any idea where to look? I am in Tucson AZ and need to find it for a friend. Now also I Make Padded Armor and ask if you could take a look at my updated sewing page. Tell me what you think. http://www.azstarnet.com/~blonde/sewing.html Deborah ****************************************************************** Please read slowly I'm Blonde! Countess Baroness Deborah Lady Mightrinwood CB AoA AKA Debbie Wooten blonde@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~blonde/index.html http://www.azstarnet.com/~kutedge/index.html ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:44:02 -0500 From: Carodec@AOL.COM Subject: 1770's bum roll Does anyone have good instructions for making a late 1770's bum roll? I've worn my period gowns over pocket hoops up till now, but the new one calls for a bum roll. I've seen pictures, and could probably wing it, but would prefer guidance from my kind fellow-listees. Thanks, Caroline in PA Carodec@aol.com or enilorac@voicenet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:13:18 -0600 From: Deb Subject: Re: 1770's bum roll Quick & Dirty (good to test what size bum roll you want) Roll up a towel, the long way. Tie it at several places with shoelaces. Attach to hips (I've not actually tried one of these ... maybe you need to put a lonnng shoelace or webbing in the middle of the towel before you roll it) Decide what size bum-roll you want (from testing several sized towels; somebody even used a blanket, I think, and it looked real good on her). Then, calculate the dimensions, make a cyllinder of the appropriate size and stuff with wadding or left over fabric. (Sorry -- that's not overly helpful so far) TIPS that I found helpful: - into both ends of the cyllinder, sew a lace or webbing to tie it around the hips - (NO documentation, but it works for me:) Sew at least 3 ties into the side of the cyllinder. One at each end, and one or two evenly in the middle. THEN tie another webbing around your waist. Tie these extra 3 (or 4) ties to the "waistband" and tie off so bumroll hangs at the appropriate distance down from waist. - Now also tie the laces at the ENDS of the cyllinder, so that the bumroll is snug around your hips. Clear as mud? ========================================== waist webbing / | \ / | \ vertical ties, for placement / _____________|_______________\ ( ) ( ) ---( ) ( )------- bumroll, and hip ties ( __)_____________________________( ) I'll bet it's STILL clear as mud. Deb Baddorf <===============================================> < Deb Baddorf Costumer, RevWar re-enactor baddorf@fnal.gov Fort Ste Joseph's militia, NWTA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:00:12 -0800 From: BARBARA PHILIP Subject: DRAMA I WOULD LIKE INFORMATION AND IDEAS ON COSTUMES FOR THE PLAY BY JOHN STEINBECK CALLED OF MICE AND MEN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:59:00 -0500 From: "Suzanne M. Hye" Subject: Re: leather source In a message dated 96-11-02 22:44:33 EST, you write: << A while ago people posted some good mail-order sources for leather. I'm afraid I lost them. Would someone please repost these, either to the list or to me privately? Much appreciated! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS: Need I say that I do NOT need the name or address of Tandy? >> I sent Gail a list of leather suppliers. Rather than post them all to the list, if you would like a copy of my list, just e-mail me. Suzanne Hye P.S. - the list includes Tandy! (sorry, Gail) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:13:17 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: men with/without hats I don't know when it became polite for men to remove their hats indoors, but I do know that it wasn't during the 16th century, at least in Italy. A codified part of 16th century Italian dance was the man's bow or reverence, which included removing and replacing his hat. According to dance manuals, this same bow was done when not dancing as well (although, obviously, not to music). So the man's hat was worn indoors, at least at balls. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:42:59 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, TEDDY wrote: > I have dipped into several periods/places covered by the group (500 - > 1603/no geographical restrictions) and have, at times, shamelessly > mix-and-matched sleeves, bodies, leg coverings and fabrics from > different periods and places. > This phrase just reminded me of every pre-raphelite painting, or anyone in those circles involved in the William Morris circles duing the 1800's Has anyone else noticed such goofy things as sideless surcotes over italian ren?... or is it just me, and they were indeed worn that way? Just Curious, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:28:43 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Can you suggest..... Hello, my fellow costumers, I am in need of titles of books that cover the 1500's to 1570's. Mostly England, but any and all other countries are included. I need to learn in a very short time everything about that time frame of clorthing. From rich to poor. I have knowledge on the nobility and upper class English, and some on pesants, but what about the church, wenches, worriors, barbarians,sailors, mythic folk (faires,elves,ogers), and any one else not coverd? I can only borrow a few books at a time, so if there are any large (covers a bit of everything) books, please enclude them in the list. Thank you Kimberly SyRilla ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:30:18 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Costume interest At 11:38 AM 11/2/96 -0800, you wrote: >I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >what you do with them after they are made? I started sewing at the age of four. My Barbies had large wardrobes. My mom made all of eight of us kids clothes plus hers. At eight y.o. mom put me in front of a sewing machine. The one thing I remember is if a didn't sew a straight seam she made me rip it out. I got real good at ripping out. My interest in clothing started with mom's McCall's magazines and Betsy McCall (you can date me now) paper dolls. Mom made me every dress Betsy had. In High School, I took six years of Home Ec. and made all of my clothes. I had to be the first to wear a newest of fashion in the 70's at my school. This lead me to collecting old Vogue patterns from the 40's & 50's. I was also in the drama club. I also grew up in Biloxi, Mississippi with Mardi Gras, can't help but love costumes. In '75 I started college as a fashion major. I fell in love with the 1890's costumes. After two years son #1 came along. I started sewing for him. Two years and another son later, I went back to college for a Home Ec. Education degree until son #3 came along. After sons #4 & #5, I gave up on sewing for boys. We adopted, (I didn't trust my husband anymore), a daughter for me to sew for. On a radio interview I was asked what I thought of the fashions of the 1980's. I responded, "In my house, the fashion was diapers, blue jeans and rock & roll t-shirts." I decided to go back to college to finish one of my degrees. The closest one to finish was fashion. I took two costume history classes in the theatre dept. and fell in love. Now I am designing costumes, finally, and one semester from graduating. I am finally getting to do what I wanted to do since I was a little girl. Next fall, I start graduate school with an emphasis in costume history and design. Now, I love costumes from all periods. As for all the costumes I made, they sit in my closet and I let students use them when they have a project pretaining to the costumes' time period. One note, my mother-in-law designed the most beautiful Mardi Gras costumes. When she died, my inheritance was her boxes and boxes of costumes and fabric dating back to 1940. I am so honored she left them to me. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Nov 1996 to 5 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Nov 07 12:36:25 1996 Received: from BROWNVM.brown.edu ([128.148.19.19]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08470 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Nov 1996 06:01:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199611070501.AA08470@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2682; Thu, 07 Nov 96 00:00:09 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5810; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:00:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:00:04 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Nov 1996 to 6 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 16 messages totalling 530 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1880 Fashion tips (fwd) 2. Costume interest (4) 3. Source for Men's riding boots 4. Surcotes over Italian ren 5. 16th century clerics 6. Costume - how it all started 7. clerics 8. Leather Source 9. Books titles for clerical costume 10. H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Nov 1996 to 5 Nov 1996 11. Beginnings 12. the hat question 13. What do you eat with.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:50:58 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: 1880 Fashion tips (fwd) I'm performing in 'The Importance of Being Earnest' by Oscar Wilde and >am playing Lady Bracknell. Do you know of Internet sights where I can >get some idea of the 1880 fashion? Does your mailing list deal with >theatrical costumes in that period and sources for these supplies in >Cape Town? Louise, I just finished designing costumes for "the I of BI". They will be on my web site as I paint them, probably in the next two weeks. If you need information sooner email me personally. http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:30:34 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Costume interest Wayne Johnson wrote, >I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so >knowledgable. > >I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >what you do with them after they are made? I also got interested in historic costume through a fantasy sort of direction. While in High School, I knew of medieval groups (Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia and the SCA) but for some reason thought I needed to be in college to join. Meanwhile, I became a regular at the Rocky Horror Picture Show (midnight cult movie), and developed an interest in corsetry. I taught myself how to make corsets since there was no one around to teach me! Earlier in life I did a lot of designing & making clothes for Barbie dolls. I liked old movies, but wasn't quite into historic things. I joined Markland once I got into college & started making medieval garb. At first I made styles that would get a reaction out of the guys in the group rather than what was authentic. Eventually I did get more interested in authenticity in Markland & also later when I joined the SCA. Eventually I was lured into Rev War reenacting. My first unit had a great distaff leader, Frances Burroughs (who now works in the costume shop at Colonial Williamsburg). Frances has high standards of authenticity & enforced them in the group. I carried that with me while costuming for other time periods & reenactment units. For reenactments, the clothing I make needs to be practical. I wear it while performing camp chores & demonstrating period crafts such as spinning. I'm also interested in period dance, so I make some dressier/fancier clothing for that. There are plenty of things in the back of my closet that I've grown beyond. A few in size, but many more are no longer up to my standards in authenticity. Others are from time period activities that I seldom participate in these days. I've unpicked some of the inauthentic costumes with the intention of using the fabric in other clothing. Other items that I don't wear anymore I simply keep because I enjoy looking at them. -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:24:50 PST From: ches@IO.COM Subject: Source for Men's riding boots ..o0*0o.. I called L.L. Bean and asked if they could share their source for the women's riding boot so that I could order MEN'S riding boots. Here is what they gave me and I called and got the rest of the following info. Happy buying! Boots for men: Dover Saddlery 1-800-989-1500 10.5 true to size tall black riding boot height = 18" side = 15.25" inside = 15" Ordering info: Novelle - 3809 Men's 119.70 none in stock until 4 weeks from now (11/1/96) Call to ask if your size is in stock. All sizes are true to size so go to a payless or wherever and measure your foot on those thingys to confirm you size. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:35:57 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: Costume interest On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Wayne Johnson wrote: > I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and > what you do with them after they are made? What happens to the costumes later? Well, anything between 600 and 1600 gets worn in the SCA, until it falls apart, or I donate it to the Hospitallers box, for newcomers to wear - or it is remade with greater accuracy in mind. I lent a few of my outfits to my Aunt in North Queensland for a charity fashion parade. (and was amused to discover new and innovative ways to wear a henin, when she sent me photos of the models in my garb!) The 18th century gowns Sharon and I made for a freeform just sit in our wardrobes, waiting for an excuse.... any excuse.... Darn. I knew there was a reason for Halloween - an excuse to wear costumes! Tricia (realising that Australia doesn't have a holiday where costume wearing is encouraged) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 04:27:12 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Surcotes over Italian ren Sarahj wrote: >Has anyone else noticed such goofy things as sideless surcotes over >italian ren?... or is it just me, and they were indeed worn that way? Actually, yes, although I think the style is rather elegant, not goofy. :) Interesting how tastes vary. :) I've been noticing in a good many paintings from the late 1400s how what we have come to know as Italian ren - that is, a tightly fitting bodice and voluminous skirt over a highly embroidered chemise - is often worn under yet another layer, although to call it sideless, well, I'm not sure. Perhaps I've just not seen the paintings to which you're refering. I have seen an extremely elegant sleeveless coat with high collar, almost Edwardian. There's a sleeved overgown with plunging neckline to display a heavily embroidered bodice. And a few other variations as well. I think perhaps the Italians were simply slaves to fashion. Course, with what was going on there at that time, who wouldn't have been? Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 04:27:20 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Costume interest >>I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >>what you do with them after they are made? I have to admit it was the SCA which started my interest, and that has given way to a desire to create authentic work down to fully embroidered cloth. And I suppose the interest in costuming reawakened an old love - embroidery, so that I'm teased, not without justification, about not being able to leave a plain cloth alone. That love has just led me into embroidery restoration, and I am very nervously beginning my first, a Berlin wool kneeler in rather bad repair. As to what I do with the costumes after they are made - I wear them, or the people for whom I make them wear them. There is something infinitely gratifying about seeing a piece you've worked on for two years, embroidered extensively, moving about the body of the person for whom you made the garment. The garment comes alive, has a majesty and grace all its own. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:16:23 GMT From: Jon Bagguley Subject: Costume interest I've always made things, it runs in the family as does an interest in history. I've made most of my own clothes since puberty when everything stopped fitting and have always entered any fancy dress competition going. I got into role-playing at university and did several fantasy parties which were costumed. Then I failed to run fast enough when a friend suggested I join a re-enactment group she and several other friends were in and the rest is history. My first costume was fairly bad but my excuse was that I copied the dress I'd been lent and only found out later that it was no longer up to standard, I learnt my lesson always check first. Most of my personal costume wears out though that first dress became trimmings on a coat. Our re-enactment schedule is fairly full and hard on the clothes. Most of my costume is made for other people who also wear it to death or grow out of it, my smallest clients have a wonderful habit of growing in the week between making them something and them wearing it! Esther Reeves ( on my husband's account ) Temporal Schizophrenia : when you refer to both 15th and 20th century as modern and anything in between as old fashioned ! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:18:58 GMT From: Jon Bagguley Subject: 16th century clerics Hi, I wonder if people could give me their expertise on 16th century English clerics (priests) and what they wore as everyday wear. I know quite a bit about normal 16th century clothing and about modern vestments and such but till now haven't needed to combine them and my sources seem to be a bit deficient on the subject. I'm most interested in the first half of the 16th century but also the 50 years before and after e.g. 1450 -1600. I know that they were wearing a distinctive outfit and can work out several possibilities from a few portraits but would like to get it right first time. Esther Reeves ( on my husband's account ) Temporal Schizophrenia : when you refer to both 15th and 20th century as modern and anything in between as old fashioned ! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:27:04 +0000 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Costume - how it all started > >>I have been reading H-Costume for several months now. Everyone seems so >>knowledgable. > >>I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >>what you do with them after they are made? I must admit that I have found everyone's answers to this question fascinating - so here's my bit. I have to confess that when I was at school I hated sewing lessons - and when it came to designing clothes in art classes I was completely hopeless. I loved watching historical costume dramas on TV - you know, The Six Wives of Henry VIII (I was nine at the time) and the following Elizabeth R, and I had a natural love of history up to around 1603 (I didn't find the following periods anything like as fascinating for some reason). Then I joined the Tolkien Society and made my first costume for one of its events. I bought the book "Evolution of Fashion" by Hill and Bucknell and decided to make a costume that combined ideas from two of the medieval designs (remember we're talking fantasy here). I don't think I will ever forget the expression on my mother's face (no mean needleworker herself) as she saw me lay the fabric on the living room floor, get some tailors chalk and draw out the pattern straight onto the fabric and then cut it out - this from a daughter who had given up sewing at school at the first opportunity. The real break through, however, came at college. I did a degree in Performing Arts and at the end of the first year we had to opt for being involved in one of three productions or going onto the design team which would be responsible for the designs for them. I opted for the dance production (dance was my subsiduary subject and I thought it would be a good idea to get some experience of being in a dance production). Three days into rehearsal I broke my foot and was reassigned to the design team (it was the only thing I could do given that one leg was encased in plaster up to my knee). As it happened I had already sketched out a few ideas before the accident occurred and when the design lecturer saw them he put me in charge of the costume designs for the dance production. I was hooked - in the second and third years of the degree we were required to specialise to some extent and not surprisingly I opted for theatrical design although at that point I was much more interested in designing sets. As it happened I chose not to follow a career in theatrical design, but I continued to make costumes - all of them fantasy based, and like Teddy it was through this that I became involved in Masque, the British Costume convention and met up with people in Medieval Societies. Then about two years ago a viral infection had a nasty complication which resulted in a temporary arthritic condition in my knees. While this was being sorted out I found myself sitting around rather alot (moving was very painful until they found out what the problem was and treated it) and I took the opportunity to do some research into historical costume in England from the years 1066 to 1558 (I still haven't plucked up the courage to tackle Elizabethan yet). That was it - hooked again. Like Teddy I don't go in for correct fabrics (due to cost) and I don't handstitch all my stuff (due to lack of time) although all the finishing and any embroidery required is done by hand, and I will try to get the cut right (though that can cause problems as there is often so little direct evidence for my main areas of interest in historical costume - English costume from 1066 to 1558). And of course I still do fantasy costumes (which requires a completely different approach) and I still love designing for dance. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:20:40 -0500 From: D Lawson Subject: Re: clerics Speaking of clerics... I'm working on a novel set in the early 1890s and one of my characters is a Jesuit priest. Problem is, I've had a heck of a time finding any kind of detailed description of a cassock in that time period. Does anyone have this information or know of sources I can check? I'm at a loss. Even a movie title would help. Thanks so much. Great list, by the way. Deb Lawson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:28:42 -0600 From: "Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097" Subject: Leather Source pP Some lady was looking for a leather source mail order? Well I have not come across any but a word of caution on this. Leather quality can vary cosiderably even within a single shipment. If your not buying in quantity for several different projects I find best to hand pick my pieces to assure they match good enough for my project. A chain of shops that exists across the country and is very helpfull is Tandy Leather. However if your buying for a large project or in quantity there prices do not give you a big enough break. For quantity purchases try looking for a local tannery. dennis --------------------------------------------------------------------------- return address: bednarekd@picard.med.ge.com home phone: 414-363-7082 work phone: 414-521-6962 GE. MED. MR Manufacturing 2nd Shift --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:14:09 -0600 From: harry billings Subject: Books titles for clerical costume As the title stated I'm looking for titles for books that cover clerical garb. I have a gentleman who wishes to play a Friar in a fantasy recreation game. He wishes to be as accurate as possible, but he doesn't know which type of friar he wishes to be. Books with clear pictures would be greatly appreciated as then I can show him what I mean. Thanks in advance. Mieka psobaka@mail.myriad.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:18:44 -0800 From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Nov 1996 to 5 Nov 1996 Greetings to the list! Actually, I always assumed that women did not remove their hats (in church or in social situations) because it would lead to a nasty (and ugly!) case of hat hair. Also, to keep those gorgeous milinery creations on our heads we had to pin them there-- and watching someone carefully insert a 6" pin into her head is always unnerving for me! Gail DeCamp gdecamp@best.com >I've always been intriqued by the fact that men have to remove their hats in t= >he "presence of higher authority", ie. church, etc., but women do not. Does >this mean that women are a higher authority? ;-) Seriously though, my >suspicion is that it's more a way of reinforcing female inferiority. Aft= >er >all, I suspect the reason women didn't have to do it is because their hair >was always considered an erogenous zone and for them to uncover it would = >be most unseemly. Probably why they wore so many hat pins, it made it that = >much harder to remove the hat. Just my (admittedly biased) opinion. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:02:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Beginnings I've been prompted to answer these questions because my experience is so different from the other people who have answered - no fantasy, nothing to do with SF (I just read it extensively!). I was very poor at sewing at school, but found I had to make some of my own clothes later on as I couldn't get what I wanted in my size, or in fabric I liked. I've always loved beautiful fabrics, especially natural fibres and have developed some skill in choosing wools, which is odd because that's what my grandfather used to do for a living (wool tester for Lancashire wool mills). However, these were modern clothes and I didn't think of making fantasy or historic clothes. About 10 years ago a friend persuaded me to go to Kentwell Hall (needless to say in the event she couldn't go, so I went by myself). In order to go I had to make an outfit, 1520 lower gentry, to reasonably high standards - we were encouraged to use wool and cotton for example. From skin out, smocks, kirtle, gown, coif and headrail and shoes (handmade, of leather), starting in March and finishing in June - I'd never sewn leather before, never mind made shoes!. Looking back I don't know how I did it, I was really learning on the job. The smocks, coifs and headrail were cotton, the kirtle and gown wool, lined with cotton and boned. It fitted incredibly badly but I was hooked. I've gone on learning on the job - the gentry at Kentwell, who make outfits very specific for the year (ie 1520 will not do for 1529) have a saying that you know how to make the clothes for a year by the end of that year's event. I also branched into embroidery of the 16th century, and then got hooked on the food, so the clothes became plainer (middle class). I also made clothes for other people, usually middle-class, and for my husband. It was for him I made the outfit I am proudest of, 1579 peascod belly (and hose of course) of black wool slashed (all over) to cream satin with gold braid down the front and on the tabs and piccadills. The front is as stiff as a plank, but its not too uncomfortable to wear (mind you, he stopped being gentry after that!) As for what happens to the clothes, some are re-cut into other clothes but most are sitting in a very large wardrobe at home - thye get looked over periodically, and if a suitable event comes along .... We have one bedroom given over to costume, leather-working and books on the subject and related subjects. We've just re-built the wardrobe to give a decent drop for the long gowns, and the rest of the room is in the process of being re-organised to better accommodate bits and pieces. However, we have now moved from 16th more into 15th century, which means a whole new set of clothes and acoutrements! On fabrics, I started on natural fibres and have moved more and more towards authenticity. The next stage, which has begun, is moving from cotton for smocks and linings, to linen. The problem there is getting hold of it at reasonable prices (not easy in the UK, especially the lighter weights - Herts Fabrics stock heavy-weight linens, if you are interested). Some of the Kentwell gentry are now talking about silk velvet instead of cotton velvet, which, given the price and rarity of silk velvet, is really saying velvet shouldn't be used. On dyes, at the moment I'm happy with fabrics that look as tho' they used natural dyes and with appropriate weaving techniques. Who's to say where the quest for authenticity will go next! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:59:08 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: the hat question There are probably several reasons (just guesswork or perhaps deductions) about why women didn't remove their hats and men did/do. Consider how heavily the Anglo-Saxon world of costumes has been influenced by the church, where fashion dictates that a woman have her head covered, I would guess that this is where the custom started and not with hairstyles (originally anyway since hairstyles in the 12th century probably weren't all that elaborate to begin with). Also, having a woman's face, head, or hair covered seems to derive from the Middle Eastern countries, again where the Christian faith originated, in addition to the Jewish and the Muslim. Just throwing this out there. Becky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:19:23 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: What do you eat with.... Hello, my wonderful friends, I have been asked about the place setting on a 1500's table. What type of silverwear Plates, cups, napkins? I told them I didn't know but I would ask. Thank you again for you help. Kimberly BTW. I absolutely love this list. I have learned so much from everyone. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Nov 1996 to 6 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Nov 08 09:31:47 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA15378 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 8 Nov 1996 06:04:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199611080504.AA15378@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4968; Fri, 08 Nov 96 00:01:49 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3510; Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:01:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:01:42 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Nov 1996 to 7 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 22 messages totalling 683 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Naalbinding packet update 2. men with/without hats (3) 3. What do you eat with... (long) 4. Burnley & Trowbridge (2) 5. [Fwd: Costuming beginnings] 6. What do you eat with.... (2) 7. How did I get Started? 8. Reenactment Societies (2) 9. Burnley and Trowbridge catalog 10. wedding dresses... (3) 11. Marketplace in Bethlehem 12. eyeglasses 13. How I got into costuming (long) 14. Anne of Cleves 15. Burnley & Trowbridge catalog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:19:39 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Naalbinding packet update Thanks to everyone who offered to send me a copy of the naalbinding packet so I could distribute more copies. I think I will have a copy within a week or so. Anyway, I'll announce it when I do. Several people have already e-mailed me asking for copies and are in my "holding file." Sally Chandler is handling requests for copies in the UK; Sarah Randles will be handling requests in Australia, and I'll be dealing with continental North America. People who live anywhere we haven't covered are probably welcome to ask whichever of us seems closest. Each of us will set our own price to cover costs of copying and postage. There is supposed to be about thirty pages of material. Just a reminder that if all you are doing is asking for a copy of the info, please do so via private e-mail and not to the list. Chris ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:19:48 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Re: men with/without hats Gail Finke wrote, >I don't know when it became polite for men to remove their hats indoors, but >I do know that it wasn't during the 16th century, at least in Italy. A >codified part of 16th century Italian dance was the man's bow or reverence, >which included removing and replacing his hat. According to dance manuals, >this same bow was done when not dancing as well (although, obviously, not to >music). So the man's hat was worn indoors, at least at balls. > However, men removed their hats *as a sign of respect* (whether indoors or out) in England at least that far back. George Fox, the founder of Quakerism (admittedly a bit later, 1650s), preached that such "hat honor" should be given only to God. He and quite a number of other Quakers got thrown in jail, beaten up, and other such things because they would not "put off their hats" to the King, to the judge in the courtroom, et cetera. (One young man got a beating when he would not take off his hat to his father.) Up until the late nineteenth century, when many Quakers gave up wearing the traditional "plain dress," it was quite common to see Quakers arrive at Meeting on Sunday, go inside, and sit down for worship with their hats (or bonnets, for women) firmly on their heads. However, when someone arose to "minister," the hat or bonnet would be removed -- in particular, there are stories of small children knowing when a woman was about to stand and speak, because before she stood up, she'd reach up to untie her bonnet strings. And if someone in Meeting felt moved to kneel and pray aloud, everyone else would stand and remove their hats. This was a particular sign of being in God's presence. ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:14:04 -0800 From: Elizabeth Pruyn Subject: Re: What do you eat with... (long) >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:19:23 -0500 >From: SyRilla@AOL.COM >Subject: What do you eat with.... >Hello, my wonderful friends, >I have been asked about the place setting on a 1500's table. What type of >silverwear Plates, cups, napkins? I told them I didn't know but I would >ask. >Thank you again for you help. Kimberly, Hi there. If you are talking about an English table in the 1500's, think simple. There aren't the table decorations that we think of in a modern table. White linen, cups on a side board, mixed silver, petwer or wooden plates, or shared bread trenchers is the basic look. Some books that have good information and pictures of meals on the subject include: Medival Cookbook, The Black, Maggie Thames & Hudson New York 1993 Fabulous Feasts Cosman, Madeleine Pelner George Braziller New York 1976 Black, Maggie, Food and Cooking in Medieval Britain; History and Recipes, English Heritage, England, 1985. Brett, Gerard, Dinner is Served, Rupert Hart Davis. 1968. Cooper, Charles, The English Table in History and Literature, London, Sampson Low, Marston and Co., Ltd. Drummond, J.C., and Wilbraham, A. The Englishman's Food: A History of Five Centuries of English Diet. Readers Union, 1939. Furnivall, Frederick, ed. Early English Meals and Manners, Early English Text Society, Original Series, no. 32, 1894. Hackwood, Frederick W., Inns, Ales and Drinking Customs of Old England, Holme, Bryan, Princely Feasts and Festivals- Five Centuries of Pagentry and Spectacle, Thames and Hudson, London, 1988. Mennell, Stephan, All Manners of Food; Eating and Taste in England and France from the Middle Ages to the Present, Basil Blackwell, Inc., Oxford, 1986. Wheaton, Barbara Ketcham, Savoring the Past; The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789, Simon & schuster, New York, 1983. Wildblood, Joan and Brinson, Peter, The Polite World: a Guide to English Manners and Deportment from the 13th to the 19th Century, 1965. Wilson, C.A. Food and Drink in Britain from the Stone Age to Recent Times. 1973. If you'd like more information, please email me off list as this isn't really costume related though I could go on for hours. I like to the table look as good as the dress... Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:40:25 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Burnley & Trowbridge Hey everyone! I just got my Burnley & Trowbridge catalog in the mail and boy do they have some really cool stuff! Different colored linens for $8 a yard! Different colored wools for $8 a yard (most of them 60in wide!!)!! And other really neat stuff like linen thread, costuming books, belt buckles and buttons. And they are REALLY nice. The address is: Burnley & Trowbridge 319 Oaktree Road Williamsburg, VA 23188 or e-mail them at Jasburn@aol.com Hope you all can use this resource! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:47:15 -0800 From: Thane&Aislinn Subject: [Fwd: Costuming beginnings] Message-ID: <32816DF8.36E0@stockton.net> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:04:56 -0800 From: Thane&Aislinn X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hcostume@brownvm.brown.edu Subject: Costuming beginnings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Hello to H-costume: Until now I have been a avid lurker on this list, only sending messages to individuals who have requested information in my areas of expertise. But I felt I had to respond with the origin of my interest in costume. I think my interest started in the cradle. I was always writing my own little plays in my head and forcing my brothers to dress up and act along with me. My mother got me into embroidery at age 5 because she thought it would teach me patience. (This is still a foreign concept to me. I do a lot of embroidery but always feel I can't wait to finish something so I can see how it turns out!) I was an indifferent and inept sewer in Junior High Home Ec, even managing to break a sewing machine needle off in my thumb. (Never look up at someone while the machine is running.) So I swore off it for almost ten years until I stumbled into the SCA. For my first few years in the group, I begged and pleaded and finagled my friends into making me clothes. But I found it was a burden on my friends and things were never done on time or done well enough to satisfy my own imagination. So I took matters into my own hands, even though I was terrified of sewing machines. The first piece of clothing I made was a Tudor gown complete with corest, hoops, hoop cover, underdress (beaded within a inch of it's life :), overdress and French hood. I was extremely lucky because a dear friend of mine was a Laurel and she coached me through this opus. From then on I was hooked. I read everything on the subject of medieval clothing I could get my hands on and built a great reputation for passing on all knowledge that I had acquired. 17 years later, I am still a member of the SCA, having acheived both a Laurel and Pelican for making clothing. I always endeavor to make my clothes from the most accurate types of cloth I can find and am now making a high necked Elizabethan mainly by hand, including making my own bias tape trims. Thanks to my love of costume and fabric, I now work in the real world in the design department of an up-and-coming women's snow-board apparel company and I finally love my job. (Much better than 21 years in insurance. Thank you, Gwyn, for getting me this job!) I appreciate the time you all have taken to read this rambling message. If anyone needs help with Elizabethan, Italian Renaissance, Cavalier costume or blackwork embroidery, feel free to contact me directly. Aislinn McKenney aka: Mistress Aislinn Rowena MacKenzie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:57:11 -0500 From: Sharron Fina Subject: Re: What do you eat with.... Kimberly et al., >From what I have gathered on the subject, most anything placed on the table was of practical use, no centerpieces, doilies, etc. Most often lighting came from wall hung torches or free-standing candelabras. The knife was the main "eating" utensil. Only include forks and napkins (large:16"-18" square) if you are doing Southern Europe, such as Italy or parts of Germany. I don't have anything definite on spoons. Glass was still extreme luxury, pottery or metals were the choice for drinking goblets. I haven't found much on plates, but I would use the same measure for them as for goblets. Lower classes used wood plates, goblets, and bowls. If anyone has differing information please let me know. We are having a feast soon and we are trying to be as authentic as possible (we're having "peacock", spelled c-h-i-c-k-e-n, complete with tail feathers!) Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu Philadelphia, PA USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:52:26 PST From: Lena Meyer Subject: Burnley & Trowbridge Is there a charge for their catalog? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:00 CST From: Mickie Erickson Subject: How did I get Started? G.I. Joe. I got hooked on all of the cool uniforms (at least, that's why I learned to sew) And Lord of the Rings at far too early an age. However, aside from a short hauberk of chainmail, I had a costuming drought until college, where we had a small SCA branch (that sadly lasted only a half year). But that lit the costuming fires, and I was lost. Amazing, isn't it, how you try to find ways of building costumes around a particular artefact? (at least, of course, in the early period of costuming)... i.e- "I've got this cool sword... What can I wear it with?" Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:00 CST From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Reenactment Societies I know it's a bit off of our topic, but I've seen it referred to in a number of other locations, and I'm wasting away from curiosity: WHAT is the Sealed Knot? (If, of course, you're allowed to answer) (I know it's British, & that's about it) Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:26:42 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: men with/without hats in England at least that far back. George Fox, the founder of > Quakerism (admittedly a bit later, 1650s), preached that such "hat honor" > should be given only to God. He and quite a number of other Quakers got > thrown in jail, beaten up, and other such things because they would not > "put off their hats" to the King, to the judge in the courtroom, et cetera. > (One young man got a beating when he would not take off his hat to his > father.) > Orthodox Jews do not remove their hats either (but then neither does the pope). ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:54:19 +0000 From: "kevin.peacock" Subject: Re: Reenactment Societies Dear Mickie, Its quite a complicated topic to actually delve into but to put it simply they portray the English Civil War of the 17th Century. I am not actually in it myself but they are a major society in Britain for their period. Being impartial here i can also say that their equivelent the E.C.W society is also one of the major Re-enactment/Living History societies in Britain. I can't remember the details but one of the Societies is well established in Living History, the other in Battle re-enactment. I apologize for the lack of detail but i hope it has answered your question, 'Faithfully' Kevin. 68 DLI On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Mickie Erickson wrote: > I know it's a bit off of our topic, but I've seen it referred to in a > number of other locations, and I'm wasting away from curiosity: > WHAT is the Sealed Knot? (If, of course, you're allowed to answer) > (I know it's British, & that's about it) > Tom Erickson > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:36:13 -0800 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: What do you eat with.... I have a book which has color photos of majolica ware from about 1400 through 1700; some of them appear to be dinner dishes, although a lot are pitchers and storage vessels. They appear very similar to "traditional" majolica patterns that I see sold in catalogs today; blues, greens, reds, on white background -- very "loud" to my taste! So if you wish to use tableware that matches the historic costume you wear, consult your nearest library -- there may be books like mine listed. Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:58:27 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Burnley and Trowbridge catalog Dear Lena and List, We appreciate the wonderful response you have given us! We have also greatly enjoyed the list! To answer you question, Yes, there is a charge of $3.00 which includes fabric swatches. Our address is as follows: Burnley and Trowbridge 319 Oaktree Road Williamsburg, VA 23188 757-253-1644 Keep in mind that we have a large and ever-changing inventory besides what you will see in our catalog. If you have needs or wants we are only a phone call or e-mail away. We look forward to serving you! Angela Burnley jasburn@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:49:31 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: wedding dresses... Hello all!! This is a request which will be used MUCH later for me, but I'm already curious. I plan to get married in garments from the Middle Gothic styles from England (c. 1327-1425) Now, my boyfriend is set on wearing chain mail, or partial armour - I'm sure this isn't proper for a wedding of the time. I am wondering, however what would the soldiers of the time have gotten married in? Anyways, I am looking for information on weddings of the middle-upper classes of this time (this time isn't totally fixed as of yet - I think later periods are more my style.....) So any information as far as a wedding gown, groom's attire, wedding party, ceremony, etc would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you so much for your help, and if anyone has ANY information about weddings in the past (preferably England, Scotland areas - sorry to all of the Italian specialists! :) ) please send it! I'm so curious! Thanks, Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:11:52 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: wedding dresses... There's a great page on the web devoted to medieval/renaissance weddings: http://paul.spu.edu/~kst/bib/bib.html it's chock full of info on every aspect of historical weddings! Drea > > Anyways, I am looking for information on weddings of the middle-upper > classes of this time (this time isn't totally fixed as of yet - I think > later periods are more my style.....) So any information as far as a > wedding gown, groom's attire, wedding party, ceremony, etc would be greatly > appreciated!!! > > Thank you so much for your help, and if anyone has ANY information about > weddings in the past (preferably England, Scotland areas - sorry to all of > the Italian specialists! :) ) please send it! I'm so curious! > > Thanks, > Sharon > ***************************** > * * > * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * > * * > * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * > * * > ***************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:26:17 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Marketplace in Bethlehem OK, you *really* early re-enactors out there some advice, please!!! The Education Director at my church found out what I do for a living and wants me to help with an annual event in its third year there. This event brings to life the town of Bethlehem at the time around the birth of Jesus, with craftspeople (potters, weavers, etc.), authentic food preparation, family life, drawing water from the well, people participating in the Census, as well as carpenters, musicians, dancers (?) and any kinds of other things that might be depicted to make it interesting. Visitors go from booth to booth, or site to site, listening to conversations (first person), watching craftsmen do their work, tasting food, all kinds of neat stuff (we hope). The Director is a very intelligent and resourceful person, and she wants it to be a really different learning experience for people, and a lot of fun, too. Maybe like a REALLY early "RenFaire-type" of thing Last year it really seemed to take off and now, this year and looking towards next, they want to get authentic with customs that might be spoken of, and CLOTHING. I don t need to describe to you what they have been wearing other than to say it was the last thing on the list of things thought to be important. Now that they re getting serious about clothing and customs they want _me_ to advise and I have no idea As this is WAY before my time I have real doubts that I can be in the least helpful, and thought maybe someone out there might have some insight unfortunately Dale deleted the recent messages concerning the garb of the three wise men and other Nativity messages; now I wish he hadn t. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:49:59 -0700 From: Andrew Tarrant/Julie Malin Subject: Re: wedding dresses... Well for starters, you would not have been married in a church at all, but on the steps. Marrage was more of a business transaction then a relegious ritual. -Julie At 01:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Sharon and/or Mikie wrote: >Hello all!! > >This is a request which will be used MUCH later for me, but I'm already >curious. > >I plan to get married in garments from the Middle Gothic styles from= England >(c. 1327-1425) > >Now, my boyfriend is set on wearing chain mail, or partial armour - I'm= sure >this isn't proper for a wedding of the time. I am wondering, however what >would the soldiers of the time have gotten married in? > >Anyways, I am looking for information on weddings of the middle-upper >classes of this time (this time isn't totally fixed as of yet - I think >later periods are more my style.....) So any information as far as a >wedding gown, groom's attire, wedding party, ceremony, etc would be greatly >appreciated!!! > >Thank you so much for your help, and if anyone has ANY information about >weddings in the past (preferably England, Scotland areas - sorry to all of >the Italian specialists! :) ) please send it! I'm so curious! > >Thanks, >Sharon >***************************** >* * >* DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * >* * >* THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * >* * >***************************** > > =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 Trespasser Ceramics Andrew Tarrant (SCA) Master Eric the Trespasser (OL) Turner Valley, Alberta, Canada, T0L 2A0 Phone/Fax - (403) 933-7221 email - trespass@nucleus.com =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:40:32 -0600 From: Rachel Rufer Subject: eyeglasses I don't know if you're the correct group to ask but, does anyone know when people began wearing eyeglasses? Rachel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:36:12 -0000 From: Janice Jones Subject: How I got into costuming (long) The question was asked how our costuming came about and what we do with our old costumes. I did not save the original post, so I can not quote it. I began sewing the summer between third and fourth grade. In fourth grade I began crocheting and knitting. By the time I was in High School I was skilled at knitting, crochet, embroidery, needlepoint, quilting, and sewing. My favorite classes in school were English and History. I especially enjoyed digging for those interesting tidbits that made the people we were learning about come alive. I found I truely enjoyed the research. As I got older my friends and I would go antique shopping. I often wondered what stories the objects could tell, not only who owned them, but where and when they were used. I began buying things I could not recognize, then I would research and find out what the items were. When my sister moved to Sierra Vista, Arizona, she would go to Tombstone in Victorian costume. One day I joined her and was hooked. Here was a hobby that engulfed all of my loves, research, sewing, needlework and antique shopping! In addition it was fun to be the center of attention, while wearing my costumes. I'm not shy, and I enjoy meeting new people. Now I volunteer at a local museum and I give tours in a local historical home. I am sewing costumes for their Christmas program and will be portraying one of the family members too. I accent my costumes with handmade, historically accurate needlework, and I am currently compiling a book of knitting and crochet patterns, that I have translated into modern knitting and crochet terms. I do not belong to a reenactment group but about once a month I go to Tombstone, Rawhide or various gun shows, where the contestants dress in period costume. I do quite a bit of research before I make a costume, and I have been blessed, staying pretty much the same size for quite a while. My "old costumes" have just worn out or faded. I do not have the back of my closet full of things that no longer fit or inacurate clothing. Janice Jones jejones@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:41:52 EST From: "Wilson, Annette" Subject: Anne of Cleves Hi everyone, I am toying with the idea of making the costume Anne of Cleves wore when she sat for the Holbien portrait. I say "toying" because I haven't completely made up my mind whether that style of dress would suit me, and of course I will also need to get a round tuit :-) Has anyone made one or can anyone point me in the direction of books, portraits etc which show other examples of this style, especially back and side views of course :-) Thanks in advance Annette Wilson ________________ Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:48:47 +0100 From: Tony Spence Subject: Re: men with/without hats In a message Chris Laning wrote: > However, men removed their hats *as a sign of respect* (whether indoors or > out) in England at least that far back. George Fox, the founder of > Quakerism (admittedly a bit later, 1650s), preached that such "hat honor" > should be given only to God. He and quite a number of other Quakers got > thrown in jail, beaten up, and other such things because they would not > "put off their hats" to the King, to the judge in the courtroom, et cetera. > (One young man got a beating when he would not take off his hat to his > father.) And those of you who wish to show respect by baring your heads should remember that it is impolite to show the inside of your hat when 'doffing' it - we gentle-folk do not like to be reminded of the various creatures that inhabit the hats and hair of the lower orders! -- Tony Spence ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:35:59 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Burnley & Trowbridge catalog My sincere apologies everyone!! I meant to put in my post that there is a nominal $3 charge for their catalog but it comes with SWATCHES of the linens & wools that they carry. I was delighted to actually get swatches so the $3 was gladly paid when I got the catalog. Sorry again! Rose :~< ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Nov 1996 to 7 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 11 10:15:34 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA21628 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 9 Nov 1996 06:02:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199611090502.AA21628@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7222; Sat, 09 Nov 96 00:01:56 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6939; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:01:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Nov 1996 to 8 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 376 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. eyeglasses (5) 2. men with/without hats 3. Hat etiquette (2) 4. The "real" Pocahontas 5. The "Real" Pocahontas 6. How I got into costuming (2) 7. Exhibition Catalogs List 8. Dated tablewear.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 01:33:30 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: eyeglasses On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Rachel Rufer wrote: > I don't know if you're the correct group to ask but, does anyone know when > people began wearing eyeglasses? > Two independent inventions, as far as we can tell. Classical Western civilizations understood the basic principles of the magnifying glass; they improved over the centuries with better glassmaking and lens grinding techniques. In the very early 1300's reading glasses of the pince-nez type appeared in Europe, invented in Italy I believe. So the first _corrective lenses_ are Medieval European. In Central Asia, people had faced the threat of snowblindness from glare off snow or desert sand; usually they either reduced it with dark eye makeup (as Arab and North African nomads do to this day) or with some sort of slitted goggles. Eventually, some jewellers in the Silk Road cities came up with luxury goggles; pretty metal frames holding disks of topaz or other tinted, transparant stone. These Asiatic glasses feature double hinged temples, and were not ground as optical lenses (i.e. not corrective) So the first _sunglasses_ were Central Asian. Modern glasses are, very roughly, European optics held in Asiatic frames. Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:22:00 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: men with/without hats In message <32820DC2.7813@mcn.org> shepgibb@MCN.ORG writes: > in England at least that far back. George Fox, the founder of > > Quakerism (admittedly a bit later, 1650s), preached that such "hat honor" > > should be given only to God. He and quite a number of other Quakers got > > thrown in jail, beaten up, and other such things because they would not > > "put off their hats" to the King, to the judge in the courtroom, et cetera. > > (One young man got a beating when he would not take off his hat to his > > father.) > > > Orthodox Jews do not remove their hats either (but then neither does the > pope). Therefore, the Pope is Jewish? o-) < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:28:15 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: Hat etiquette Samuel Pepys noted on 22 Sep. 1664 that he thought he had caught cold from not wearing his hat at dinner. On 17 Nov. 1661 he had heard a preacher speak against men wearing their hats in church, and on 28 Sep. 1662 he was surprised to see another clergyman preach hatless. Seems strange, but it evidently was normal to leave the hat on in church. (Incidentally, doesn't the convention for women to cover their heads go back to St.Paul?) We sometimes have services at Sealed Knot musters, at which men are instructed to leave their hats on (unless local clergy object). In answer to all those US list members wondering about the SK, our main activity is re-enacting English Civil War battles, but we also do living history both in conjunction with battles and as separate events. Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) (King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:02:15 CDT From: Cindy Abel Subject: Re: The "real" Pocahontas I have just finished a 24" lady doll of porcelain with a soft-stuffed body. I would like to dress her as authentically as possible. Since it is a Christmas gift, I may not have the time to dress her in the costume depicted in the original engraving and portrait copies and was thinking of a simpler gown, possibly her wedding gown. My few local biographical sources do not mention such a gown and I was wondering if anyone on the list might have access to such a description, even if the source might be family legend. Failing that, I was considering a simple Jacobean "jacket" and petticoat over the proper underpinnings. Any help would be appreciated. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:49:07 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: The "Real" Pocahontas The book, "Early American Brides, A Study of Costume and Tradition 1594-1820" by Frank and Elizabeth Haines depicts Pocahontas. The book says, "It is not known what she wore for the wedding, but as our most famous native American bride, we felt that she should wear the costume of her own people and not that of an English gentlewoman, as she does in her London portrait. " Their interpretation is an eyewitness account of a robe worn by an Algonquin Princess of the time: A fair white doeskin sewn all over with small copper discs, white beads and pearls. Her lovely robe is draped and secured over the shoulders much in the manner of the early Roman robes, with the tope and bottom fringed in the attractive and well-known Indian fashion. It is secured at the left side by three thongs slipped through slits, front and back. The same fastenings are used on each shoulder. I would suggest getting the book from the library. There are pictures and much more detail. Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:52:06 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: eyeglasses I saw a tv show in which an art historian showed videos of an Italian fresco from the mid-1300's in which there was a man wearing corrective glass lenses. The narration said this was the earliest known representation of glasses. Sorry I don't have any references. When did "people" in general began wearing glasses? What do people on the list think? Some scholars in the late 1500s, more common in the 1600s, not a widespread practice for both men and women until the 1700s? Marsha >I don't know if you're the correct group to ask but, does anyone know when >people began wearing eyeglasses? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:26:40 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: eyeglasses There is a Great book, ASpectacle of Spectacles, thattraces the history of eyewear.ISBN 3 361 00250 8 The oldest pair are a reconstruction of iron, circa 14th c. Kel On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Rachel Rufer wrote: > I don't know if you're the correct group to ask but, does anyone know when > people began wearing eyeglasses? > > Rachel > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:16:37 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Hat etiquette speaking of hats I couldn't resist sending the following quote: "Hats generally divide into three classes: offensive hats, defensive hats, and shrapnel." -- Katherine Whitehorn ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:26:04 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: How I got into costuming Greetings! Ever since I was a kid, I've had an insatiable desire to make stuff. My grandmother taught me embroidery and crochet before she died when I was eleven. It was about a year later that I first really became interested in historic costume--when I was in the sixth grade, we had "Shakespeare in the Schools", where we spent two weeks studying Shakespeare and his era, including putting on snippets of plays in costume. I was Hamlet--I was much taller than most of the boys, had short hair, and a loud voice. I think that was what hooked me both on history and on medieval-Renaissance dress. Of course, I spent my high school and early university years thinking I was going to be a scientist, so I never took sewing beyond the six-week mini course in the eighth grade, although I did learn some stuff on my own. My first three years at Ohio State, I did some costuming for student theatrical productions--where I made my first tunic (back when I thought you just folded the fabric and cut a hole in the middle). I looked at my first costuming books. And I thought seriously about joining the SCA, but never did; however, meanwhile, I'd discovered that I was much better at history than I was at genetics, and had switched majors. I joined the SCA after moving up to Toronto to go to U of T for grad school in history. Six years later, I've tried just about every period out there at least once, and become fairly accomplished at costume research. I do clothing by commission, and have also ventured into the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries for a few pieces. (The doctoral dissertation is slowly coming along, too). I'm a Laurel in the SCA, but for research in general, rather than costuming--I still don't consider my costuming skills up to that standard, although I'm considered good. And I'm still having a LOT of fun with it... I wear my stuff at SCA events, and to the occasional ECW event. I'd really like to try some other periods (like Georgian and Regency) but have no idea where I'd wear them, and that's half the fun...I'd also like to do some 1920's "flapper" stuff--I love the lines. Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark in the SCA: Nicolaa de Bracton sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:04:14 -0500 From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Re: How I got into costuming I'll start with one question. Has anyone seen a good series of pictures regarding accessories/trim on clothing for Italian ren? I have a bad photocopy of The Journey of the Magii and have not been able to find something better yet (engineers never learn how to research anything!). I am hoping that I can do something with a silver braided/corded rope around the shoulders, chest and back. My costuming goes back all of 2 years at this point. I started in the SCA about 9 years ago but it was guys making armor and I didn't care for that. Many moons later a net.friend of mine succeeded in getting me out to an Irish Ceili dance and then another dance workshop that turned out to be a quasi SCA event. After the workshop people started to showup in garb and that was it. I still have not seen Finn the Fopp; but I remember that I loved whatever he was wearing. >From there I've gone into music (playing and a bit of arranging), tablet weaving, costuming (I must be getting better; they don't cring and the only comments I get are along the lines of how to fit the shoulders better ...) and more dancing than ever. Susan said: > I wear my stuff at SCA events, and to the occasional ECW event. I'd really > like to try some other periods (like Georgian and Regency) but have no idea > where I'd wear them, and that's half the fun...I'd also like to do > some 1920's "flapper" stuff--I love the lines. Come out dancing! I've been known to wear various outfits to contra dances so that I can test them out for comfort and durability. There are Playford (1650 .. 1750) workshop/balls, Vintage (1800's to early 1900's) in addition to the usual swing, square, contra, Irish, Scottish, English Country dances. Lindy Hop (1920's and up) is still going and it is creating a resurgance in one/two step and swing dance. In fact this weeks dance workshops in Ann Arbor, MI cover one and two step, vintage set dances, waltz basics, a waltz variation, Bohemian polka and I'm sure something else. The Friends of the Regency ball was last weekend; but they'll have another one. Hopefully vintage events will pick up again in Toronto. They were squashed by the Lindy Hop resurgance about 2 years ago. I'd have to say that the main goal is making the outfits to actually wear them; or more accurately, to dance in them. - Eric Praetzel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:48:30 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: eyeglasses > > When did "people" in general began wearing glasses? What do people on the > list think? Some scholars in the late 1500s, more common in the 1600s, not > a widespread practice for both men and women until the 1700s? I do know that the institution of the woodblock method of printing, started the 'student revolution' (made up term), where the books became smaller, and became more popular... and therefore more widely read, and more necessity for glasses. though I was under the impression that the glasses were not "glasses" but more of a hinged monacle....connected together with a bolt( of sorts). thus allowing the two lenses to be held up to the eyes, or hung on a workbench hook. (Ghirlandaio's _St. Jerome) and colapsed into one magnifying lens. My guess is that the use of glasses spead with the use of books, which spead with the rennaisance, starting Italy, and slowly hitting the rest of Europe. Take care, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:21:38 -0800 From: Susan Klein-Heim Subject: Re: eyeglasses I believe the first instance, or visual representation of glasses is in the painting titled "Cardinal van der Paele and the Madonna" by Jan van Eyck circa 1430. Sue Kline-Heim On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Conrad Hodson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Rachel Rufer wrote: > > > I don't know if you're the correct group to ask but, does anyone know when > > people began wearing eyeglasses? > > > Two independent inventions, as far as we can tell. Classical Western > civilizations understood the basic principles of the magnifying glass; > they improved over the centuries with better glassmaking and lens grinding > techniques. In the very early 1300's reading glasses of the pince-nez > type appeared in Europe, invented in Italy I believe. So the first > _corrective lenses_ are Medieval European. > > In Central Asia, people had faced the threat of snowblindness from glare > off snow or desert sand; usually they either reduced it with dark eye > makeup (as Arab and North African nomads do to this day) or with some sort > of slitted goggles. Eventually, some jewellers in the Silk Road cities > came up with luxury goggles; pretty metal frames holding disks of topaz or > other tinted, transparant stone. These Asiatic glasses feature double > hinged temples, and were not ground as optical lenses (i.e. not > corrective) So the first _sunglasses_ were Central Asian. > > Modern glasses are, very roughly, European optics held in Asiatic frames. > > Conrad Hodson > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:44:41 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Exhibition Catalogs List Does anyone know how or where I can obtain a comprehensive list of costume exhibition catalogs published worldwide between 1985-current. I find costume exhibition catalogs that have full-length photographs of original costumes on dummies one of the best sources for study, but I have been unable to find a complete list. I would appreciate any suggestions. Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 23:02:08 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Dated tablewear.... My friends, Thank you for all of your wonderful suggestions, I will try to do the research, to learn more. I had forgotten to say that I need information concering setting a 1500's English Upper Noble table. The Royal family would be present as they are "visiting". Hope that help. Kimberly ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Nov 1996 to 8 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 11 10:15:36 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24261 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:00:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199611100500.AA24261@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8316; Sun, 10 Nov 96 00:00:41 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0172; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:00:40 -0500 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:00:39 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Nov 1996 to 9 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 9 messages totalling 259 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cloth of Gold 2. eyeglasses (3) 3. Exhibition Catalogs List 4. Pocahontas 5. Italian Ren 6. fire retardants? 7. Benedictine Habit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 03:07:52 -0500 From: Gary Walker Subject: Re: Cloth of Gold Gary Stephens wrote: >" The first appearance of cloth of gold is difficult to date. >Surviving examples have been found in China as early as the >4th century A.D., but the first surviving examples appearing in >the west seem to coincide with the opening of trade with >China in the 13th century ." ? Trade with China began a long time before the 13th century. Or am I confused? Gary R.D. Walker gerekr@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 03:07:52 -0500 From: Gary Walker Subject: eyeglasses They start showing up in scottish heraldry in the mid 1500's so I suppose they weren't too uncommon by then. Gary R.D. Walker gerek@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 02:19:03 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: eyeglasses On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Susan Klein-Heim wrote: > I believe the first instance, or visual representation of glasses is in > the painting titled "Cardinal van der Paele and the Madonna" by Jan van > Eyck circa 1430. Fra Giordano of Pisa, giving a sermon in Florence in 1306: "It is not twenty years since there was discovered the art of making spectacles that help one to see well, an art which is one of the best and most necessary in the world....I myself saw the man who discovered and practised it and I talked with him." Note that this is a flat report of _invention_, not just kind of "at least as early" evidence that a painting or casual reference would give us. The roots of this invention are well documented in the history of science; optics may have been the most advanced field of study in European physical science in the late 13th Century. Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:50:46 +1100 From: Greg & Jocelyn House Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs List >Does anyone know how or where I can obtain a comprehensive list of costume >exhibition catalogs published worldwide between 1985-current. > >I find costume exhibition catalogs that have full-length photographs of >original costumes on dummies one of the best sources for study, but I have >been unable to find a complete list. > >I would appreciate any suggestions. > >Kathy Songal Up until the end of 1993 I worked at the National Library of Australia, and, due to Australia copyright law, one copy of anything published within Australia had to be lodged at the Library. This included all exhibition catalogues for Australia. I believe the Library is now on the internet at http://www.nla.gov.au. It is entirely possible that a similar Legal Deposit Scheme operates in USA at the Library of Congress, as well as at the British Library in London. I don't have websites for these two but assume you could probably find them using one of the many search mediums available such as Metacrawler (http://www.metacrawler.com). Good luck Jocelyn House BTW I'll look up the National Library's online catalogue and see what I can come up with. Also I may be able to find you a contact at the National Gallery of Australia - they have a small but respectable costume collection and would also collect such exhibition catalogues. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:41:37 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: eyeglasses >Two independent inventions, as far as we can tell. Classical Western >civilizations understood the basic principles of the magnifying glass; >they improved over the centuries with better glassmaking and lens grinding >techniques. In the very early 1300's reading glasses of the pince-nez >type appeared in Europe, invented in Italy I believe. So the first >_corrective lenses_ are Medieval European. Depends on which source you read. Some attribute corrective lenses to the Arabians, and the Venetians stole some of their craftsmen and sequestered them on the island of Murano, where they were able to produce lenses in mass quantities. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ embroiderer, restorer, artist http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:41:54 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Pocahontas Kathlene wrote: >The book, "Early American Brides, A Study of Costume and Tradition >1594-1820" by Frank and Elizabeth Haines depicts Pocahontas. The book says, >"It is not known what she wore for the wedding, but as our most famous >native American bride, we felt that she should wear the costume of her own >people and not that of an English gentlewoman, as she does in her London >portrait. " Their interpretation is an eyewitness account of a robe worn by >an Algonquin Princess of the time: A fair white doeskin sewn all over with >small copper discs, white beads and pearls. Her lovely robe is draped and >secured over the shoulders much in the manner of the early Roman robes, with >the tope and bottom fringed in the attractive and well-known Indian fashion. >It is secured at the left side by three thongs slipped through slits, front >and back. The same fastenings are used on each shoulder. First, I would caution against the use of the word princess in conjuction with native peoples, as the concept of royalty was foreign to them. This is purely a white invention and concept. Pocahontas was in fact not a princess. She was merely a very intelligent daughter of a tribal chief who had power over other clans because of his oratory skill. For a truly accurate understanding of Alonkian wedding custom and dress, I would refer you to Diamond Jenness' book, although old, and awfully entitled _Indians of Canada_. As well, because Pocahontas was in fact Powhatan, one of the Algonkian tribes, I'd also refer you to several other excellent books, which although particular to the Ojibwa(y), deal also with Algonkian custom. They are both by Ruth Landes, considered somewhat of an authority, entitled: _Ojibwa Religion_ and _The Ojibwa Woman_. From all of my research, it is not necessarily so a bride wore white. This whole concept of white for purity is quite foreign to any native peoples of North America (although I may be mistaken when it comes to those in the Californian and Mexican regions). For every native nation there are quite different customes. White may have been worn by the Algonkian because it would have represented wealth, but that is all. I would, frankly, go by more than one eyewitness account, which at the time may have been embellished to suit white society. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ embroiderer, restorer, artist http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:05:42 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Italian Ren The following notes are courtesy of Maestra Francesca di Pavia, from the Shire of Caer Galen, the Outlands. I will forward any comments to her. "As near as I can tell, there were two basic styles of overdress commonly worn in Italy in the second half of the 15th Century. One was called a cioppa or pellanda (regional variations), and was related to a houppelande. It was very long and full in the skirt. The bodice could be pleated to the skirt, or could be all one piece with a complex system of pleats starting above the breastline (possibly tied in place on the inside). The bodice was usually round-necked and somewhat high, but could be cut lower. The skirt was open in the front to reveal the skirt of the dress beneath. (BTW, I can see no evidence that the basic Italian dress, the gamurra, camora, or cotta - again mainly regional variations - ever had a split skirt and underskirt, as I so often see done in the SCA. That's a misinterpretation of a gown and an overgown, as I see it.) The sleeves were generally hanging sleeves, and were often ridiculously long and full, and sometimes dagged. The second style of overgown was the giornea. This was a tabard-like affair, which was left open on the sides to reveal the gown beneath, and was usually cut in a low V-neck so the bodice beneath could show. This could be sleeveless or have long, hanging (sometimes dagged) sleeves. In either case the sleeves of the dress beneath would be seen (and these were often elaborately beaded and embroidered). (Incidentally, a woman of status would rarely go out in public without an overdress, except in the summer, and then her gamurra would be of silk and as heavily embellished as she could muster. Only a lower-class woman would go about in aplain wool gamurra without a cioppa or giornea.) "Judging from the many paintings I've seen, there were wide variations in these basic styles. This was an age of great display of individualism in costuming, and as much conspicuous consumption as thewearer could afford - the penalty for violating sumptuary laws was a fine. The nouveau riche happily paid the fine in order to look more like the nobility." Francesca di Pavia/Meg Baron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:13:53 -0500 From: vandy simpson/darrell markewitz Subject: fire retardants? Greetings. I have a very quick question regarding fire-proofing fabrics.Somewhere in the very back reaches of my memory, there may be answers from my theatre days, but they don't seem to be surfacing right now.... Does anyone have any suggestions on fire-proofing or fire-"retarding" fabrics?Types of products, or where to look for them? Specifically, this is for the hanging fabrics of a craft-show booth of a goldsmith friend of mine (which unfortunately she has just discovered needing with a few days to go!), but it might also be useful and applicable to some of the re-enacting stuff I get involved with.Sure, I use natural fibres where I can, but some things might just benefit from a bit of help! For the sake of speed for my friend, e-mail me directly at vsimpson@headwaters.com, but for the possible use to the rest of the list, maybe post it here, too. Thanks, Vandy Simpson, Wareham, in the back-woods of Ontario ****************************************************************************** vsimpson@headwaters.com = Vandy Simpson, or Darrell Markewitz postings for the Wareham Forge can be sent to: wareham.forge@headwaters.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 18:21:37 -0500 From: Mary Davis Subject: Benedictine Habit I am in desperate need of a pattern for a truly authentic Benedictine habit. Please, someone out there, help me!!!! Blessings, Rev. Fr. John Missing (mdavis@gate.net) Net-Tamer V 1.06 - Test Drive `[1;32;43mNet-Tamer V 1.06 - Test Drive ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Nov 1996 to 9 Nov 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 11 10:15:37 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA26849 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:02:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199611110502.AA26849@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9017; Mon, 11 Nov 96 00:00:34 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2984; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:00:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:00:32 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Nov 1996 to 10 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 247 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Trade with China (2) 2. Glasses 3. fire retardants? (3) 4. Italian Ren 5. eyeglasses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 02:51:48 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Trade with China Gary Walker wrote: >Trade with China began a long time before the 13th century. Or am I >confused? Direct trade with China in Europe did not begin until after the Marco Polo expedition, sometime around 1297. Up to that point all trade with China was the monopoloy of the Arabians, who traded with India and China, and thereby controlled the silk and spice routes. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ embroiderer, restorer, artist http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:41:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Glasses Just my tuppence-worth: Firstly, I have read somewhere that only one type of eye-problem could be corrected with 'period' grinding of glass (long-sightedness?). Anyway the same technique as in telescopes, so the short-sighted amongst us would still suffer! Glasses would remain expensive until modern glass-grinding came in - up until then the cost would be the delicate grinding, labour-intensive, and the problems of breaking high quality glass. Making Costumes Something else occurred to me - when I started making costumes I didn't have a sewing machine, so sewed by hand. I have tried subsequently to use machines, but perennial problems with bottom tension lead to what can only be described as hysteria, so I sew everything by hand (its easier, honest!) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:14:58 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: fire retardants? Call any one of these places: Associated Drapery & Equipment 516 671 5245 Gothic Ltd. 516 676 6600 NY Flameproofing 212 924 7200 PyrotechResearch 203 789 1164 Reynolds Drapery serv 315 845 8632 These #s areold, haven't used them in a while. email me if you have trouble. On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, vandy simpson/darrell markewitz wrote: > Greetings. > I have a very quick question regarding fire-proofing fabrics.Somewhere in > the very back reaches of my memory, there may be answers from my theatre > days, but they don't seem to be surfacing right now.... > > Does anyone have any suggestions on fire-proofing or fire-"retarding" > fabrics?Types of products, or where to look for them? Specifically, this is > for the hanging fabrics of a craft-show booth of a goldsmith friend of mine > (which unfortunately she has just discovered needing with a few days to > go!), but it might also be useful and applicable to some of the re-enacting > stuff I get involved with.Sure, I use natural fibres where I can, but some > things might just benefit from a bit of help! > > For the sake of speed for my friend, e-mail me directly at > vsimpson@headwaters.com, but for the possible use to the rest of the list, > maybe post it here, too. > > Thanks, > Vandy Simpson, Wareham, in the back-woods of Ontario > > ****************************************************************************** > > vsimpson@headwaters.com = Vandy Simpson, > or Darrell Markewitz > > postings for the Wareham Forge can be sent to: wareham.forge@headwaters.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:38:40 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Italian Ren Greetings! Meg/Francesca mentions the lack of evidence for split skirt-underskirt construction for Italian dress. I concur. Every picture I have ever seen where there is a front-opening skirt, it is clear that there is a second gown underneath; indeed, this is what accounts for the triangular "placket" at the front of many Italian gowns (incidentally, if you're doing this style, the way to get the correct look is to cut the front of the overgrown not with a triangular shape already in place, but to curve the pieces, and to lace the overgown over the undergown). Often, the sleeves match the undergown. The common mistake is to omit the undergown entirely, attaching contrasting sleeves to the overgown and maybe a triangular placket in the front -- sometimes leaving the front of the gown open below the waist so that the chemise shows. Yep, I did this, too, on my first gowns, but it just looks _wrong_ now....If one does not have the time or desire to make a separate undergown, I would suggest choosing an overgown style that either side-laces or where the split in the front is only large enough to get the gown on-- usually just a couple of inches below the bodice is plenty. Cheers-- Nicolaa de Bracton sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:54:56 -0800 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: Trade with China >Gary Walker wrote: >>>Trade with China began a long time before the 13th century. Or am I >>>confused? > >Lorina Stephens wrote in reply: >> Direct trade with China in Europe did not begin until after the >>Marco Polo expedition, sometime around 1297. Up to that point all trade >>with China was the monopoloy of the Arabians, who traded with India and >>China, and thereby controlled the silk and spice routes. >[snip sig] > >And that silk and spice trade dates back at least to the later Roman Empire; and occasional contact seems to go back even earlier than that. > > Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:05:14 -0500 From: Barbara Dominey Subject: Re: eyeglasses >>So the first _corrective lenses_ are Medieval European. > > Depends on which source you read. Some attribute corrective lenses >to the Arabians, and the Venetians stole some of their craftsmen and >sequestered them on the island of Murano, where they were able to produce >lenses in mass quantities. I'm _pretty_ sure the only source for this theory is the (quite wonderful) "Niccolo" series of historical novels, written by Dorothy Dunnett. If anyone has other info on the origins of corrective lenses (other than the late 13th C. Italian attribution, which I have...somewhere....) I would be most grateful for the citations. Barbara Dominey bdominey@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:37:07 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: fire retardants? Hello, It is my understanding the most drapery services will need to have you send the fabric, (excessive yardage has seniority) then they retard it, and send it back. This takes more time that what was implied with your letter. You may want to check the hardware store.... I recall my boss, (interior designer--we did fire retarded drapery for a public space this summer) said that you could get a "spray" for smaller projects (or if we ran out of commercially retarded fabric too close to the deadline.) One thing to be careful with fire-retarded fabric, is that the chemicals can corrode metals. We had to devise a buffer system to protect the brass cafe rings from the fabric. Much to our dismay, when we bagged the draperies the night before installation,rings touched fabric, and left rusty spots on the fabric, and the brass was discolored. It worked that quickly.. thank goodness they were linings and that the spotting was able to be scrubbed out carefully. It AMAZES me that something that can eat away metal is required by law for children's sleepwear. Good luck on the project. Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:15:54 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: fire retardants? Hello, I'm not sure if you would be able to get this on time, but there are plenty of fire retardents on the market. These are avaliable from theatre suppliers (lighting or set suppliers especially) One company making these products is Rosco. This is a company which has dealers in New York, Toronto, and LA (plus other major cities in North America). They can be applied to fabrics with a roller, brush, sprayer, or by immersion of the fabric into the substance. Roscoflamex C26 can be used for cotton muslin, and costs $51.00 Canadian for 2 Gallons (less in the US) Roscoflamex S33 can be used for synthetic fibrics, and costs $61.00 Canadian for 2 Gallons There are probably other companies that provide similar products. Just check at a theatrical supply store. By the way, there are also products to flame proof styrofoam, wood, etc... if anyone needs this info, please write to me privately. Hope this helps someone! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Nov 1996 to 10 Nov 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Nov 12 16:58:23 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05813 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:03:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199611120503.AA05813@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0878; Tue, 12 Nov 96 00:01:33 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7622; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:01:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 12 messages totalling 282 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Eyeglasses 2. Exhibition Catalogues 3. habits (2) 4. fire retardants? 5. Exhibition Catalogs List (2) 6. black lace (2) 7. Cloth of Gold 8. 1860s lace collars 9. H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:38:53 -0500 From: COakley@AOL.COM Subject: Eyeglasses Rachel Rufer asked when people started wearing eyeglasses. Interestingly, we just went today to the exhibit of paintings from Burghley House and there was a painting by Francesco Trevisani (1656-1746) of the Mocking of Christ. The catalog indicates it was painted after 1696. In the upper right-hand corner is a man wearing what looked like pince-nez, possibly with wire rims (the connecting piece above the nose is definitely metal.). A sign next to the painting said eyeglasses were invented about, I think it said, 1280 (!) but their depiction in paintings is most unusual. Val Winkler/Kate Oakley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:11:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Exhibition Catalogues All British publications are indeed lodged with the British Library, but it is not in London, but in Boston Spa which is near Wetherby in Yorkshire and should be accessed through the public or academic library system. Don't confuse it with the British Museum Library, which is in London and may have the books but is more difficult to access. The Bodelian Library in Oxford also keeps a complete record of publications, I understand. Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:07:56 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: habits I may very well be wrong, but I wonder if the various requests lately for correct patterns for religious habits could be easily fulfilled by the religious orders themselves. Surely they have records of these things, and they are all still around. If you were afraid of offending the orders by telling them you wanted to wear their habit, you could say you were researching a paper or a novel. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:56:26 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: fire retardants? Another question about fire retardants... in the United States, is it required by law to use fire retardant on costumes designed for rentals? I looked at all the recent Halloween stuff and nothing said that it was fire retardant. I do know that it is required of children's sleepwear. Becky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:56:02 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs List In a message dated 96-11-09 05:53:38 EST, you write: << >Does anyone know how or where I can obtain a comprehensive list of costume >exhibition catalogs published worldwide between 1985-current. > >I find costume exhibition catalogs that have full-length photographs of >original costumes on dummies one of the best sources for study, but I have >been unable to find a complete list. > >I would appreciate any suggestions. > >Kathy Songal Up until the end of 1993 I worked at the National Library of Australia, and, due to Australia copyright law, one copy of anything published within Australia had to be lodged at the Library. This included all exhibition catalogues for Australia. I believe the Library is now on the internet at http://www.nla.gov.au. It is entirely possible that a similar Legal Deposit Scheme operates in USA at the Library of Congress, as well as at the British Library in London. I don't have websites for these two but assume you could probably find them using one of the many search mediums available such as Metacrawler (http://www.metacrawler.com). Good luck Jocelyn House BTW I'll look up the National Library's online catalogue and see what I can come up with. Also I may be able to find you a contact at the National Gallery of Australia - they have a small but respectable costume collection and would also collect such exhibition catalogues. >> Yes, there is a similar law in the United States. These documents would be filed at the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. 20540. I don't know if they are online or not but this address should work if you want to contact them via snail mail. The ISSN (the international standard serial number) system identifies a document through a series of numbers (you see this on the back of the book where the UPC code is), sometimes called an ISBN. Becky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 11:14:37 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs List > > Yes, there is a similar law in the United States. These documents would be > filed at the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. 20540. I don't know if > they are online or not but this address should work if you want to contact > them via snail mail. The ISSN (the international standard serial number) > system identifies a document through a series of numbers (you see this on the > back of the book where the UPC code is), sometimes called an ISBN. > > Becky This is not exactly true...... You can copyright a catalogue (or book) without sending a copy to the Library of Congress.... ISSN numbers (used for periodicals only) and ISBN numbers (used for books, catalogues, etc) are something else. ISSN numbers are easy to deal with. ISBN numbers are controlled by Bowker and it costs $100 to get a set of numbers. Small museums, etc. would not go to this expense if they were going to publish a few catalogues. The result of this is that the answer is "somethimes." Any listing you would find based on using either ISBN's or Library of Congress would only be partial. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:37:15 -0500 From: Anne Reaves Subject: black lace Black lace in nearly every period was silk and very expensive. (Trust me, I've been working on black silk bobbin lace for a 1860 bonnet veil and it's extremely hard on the eyes, the traditional reason for the expense.) As far as I know, black lace has always been rare and confined to outer clothing or accessories. Anne Reaves ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:53:34 -0500 From: Anne Reaves Subject: Re: Cloth of Gold Last week I was watching a program on archeology. The body in a grave thought to be that of Philip's wife (Alexander the Great's mum) was wrapped in cloth of gold. The close-ups showed a brocaded design of animal and human figures. Anne Reaves ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:42:06 -0500 From: Anne Reaves Subject: 1860s lace collars Oops! The message on black lace and this one are from overlooked October messages. One person discussed lace and mentioned that in the 1860s it was not being used on collars. Well, that depends again on your sources. British museums with lace dealers' pattern books have hundreds of 1860s bobbin lace designs, many specifically for collars or caps and clearly dated. The import trade to the US was huge, especially of bobbin lace in Bedfordshire and Buckspoint. (There's an 1860s British joke that no Bedfordshire lace could be found in Bedfordshire because it was all exported to the Americans.) British photographs show women, especially middleaged ones, wearing their lace. Since the records of lace exporting/importing to the US exist for lace collars and cuffs at that time, the absence of photographs in the States is not necessarily reliable evidence for the lack of use. I assume that wearing such lace might have been old-fashioned--but then, today I'm wearing a 28 year-old-knitted vest (weskit) my mother made for me when I was in college. Like my 100+ year old lace, it's in excellent condition, just as I hope the lace I'm making now will be 100 years in the future. Anne Reaves ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:55:38 -0800 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Nov 1996 to 4 Nov 1996 >I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, = >and >what you do with them after they are made? I've always liked costume and dress up, especially at Halloween, my once-a-year excuse when it's publicly okay... But I guess my interest in *historic* costume started when my interest in living history did - when I began to learn CA Indian basketry at the age of 14 or so. There's a wonderful reconstructed Indian village behind the Visitor's Center in Yosemite, and there I would go every day during my family's annual vacation in that beautiful valley. I learned the life skills of the Miwok, and admired the deerskin (and later calico, when they switched to the 1890s) costumed interpreters demonstrating them. Within a few years I began volunteering my time at local museums demonstrating these skills, and I began making simple 1890s dresses like the Indian women wore in Yosemite. >From there, the rest is (ahem) history! 8-) What do I do with them now? I still have my first dresses, and wear them occasionally when I do have time to demonstrate Indian skills (I made them at about 18, and they still fit!). When they wear out, or I no longer have any use for them, I'll probably do as they did then - make quilts. I'm a nut for frugality! If there's something I just can't deal with cutting up someday, it'll probably hang in my closet forever... just like those threadbare concert T-shirts. 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:42:56 -0800 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: habits On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 Gaelscot@AOL.COM wrote: > I may very well be wrong, but I wonder if the various requests lately for > correct patterns for religious habits could be easily fulfilled by the > religious orders themselves. Surely they have records of these things, and > they are all still around. If you were afraid of offending the orders by > telling them you wanted to wear their habit, you could say you were > researching a paper or a novel. Or, perhaps an even better explanation, "It's for a play." Most of what costumers do fits well into a loose definition of play-acting, and I think few organizations -- religious or otherwise -- would be offended by someone being interested in representing their dress accurately. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:53:38 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: black lace Anne Reaves wrote: > > Black lace in nearly every period was silk and very expensive. (Trust me, > I've been working on black silk bobbin lace for a 1860 bonnet veil and it's > extremely hard on the eyes, the traditional reason for the expense.) As > far as I know, black lace has always been rare and confined to outer > clothing or accessories. > > Anne Reaves "It is difficult to see why lace should be so expensive; it is mostly holes" - Mary Wilson Litle ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Nov 13 12:36:57 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA12820 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 13 Nov 1996 06:02:17 +0100 Message-Id: <199611130502.AA12820@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3108; Wed, 13 Nov 96 00:01:59 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1665; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:01:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Nov 1996 to 12 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 14 messages totalling 400 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 2. Costume Con Fifteen Reminder! 3. Trade with China 4. sorry 5. A Rather Unusual Question (2) 6. flame retardency 7. Eyeglasses 8. Exhibition Catalogs List - reply 9. How I Started... 10. Exhibition Catalogs (2) 11. How I got into costuming 12. uniquely you (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:27:03 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 > > "It is difficult to see why lace should be so expensive; it is mostly > holes" > - Mary Wilson Litle > > ~!~ R.L. Shep Yes, but have you any idea how hard it is to get those holes to stick together! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:31:02 -0500 From: Betsy Marks Subject: Costume Con Fifteen Reminder! Hi, all! This is a gentle reminder for those of you planning to attend Costume Con Fifteen next Memorial Day Weekend (May 23-26, 1997) in Baltimore, MD. Our membership rates go up at the end of this month (11/30/96)! The Attending rate increases from $50.00 to $60.00. Our Supporting membership remains $25.00 throughout, and Under 12 remains $10.00. Under 6 is Free, but must be accompanies by a parent at all times. Supporting members receive three Progress Reports (One and Two are available now), Convention Program Book, Dimensions in Design fashion folio, and Whole Costumers' Catalog. Attending members receive all publications, AND have full access to four days of panels, demos, workshops, Both Science Fiction/Fantasy and Historical Masquerade competitions, the Dimensions in Design Fashion Show, and parties. OF SPECIAL NOTE: For those of you who were planning on entering design drawings in the Dimensions in Design contest, the deadline has been extended to November 25, 1996! Get those drawings in to Karen Dick while you still can! For a complete list of all contest rules, or to request more information about Costume Con Fifteen, send mail to this address: (betsy@access.digex.net); or reach me by phone at (301) 474-8616, or by mail at CCXV, c/o Marks, 7806 Hanover Parkway, Unit T-2, Greenbelt, MD 20770-2617. See you in Baltimore! Betsy R. Marks Chair, CCXV ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:49:59 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Trade with China Excuse me but this is one of my bugbears. What are "Arabians", people from the Arabian Peninsula? or do you mean Arabs?? The overland trade routes at least were dominated by various Turkish groups, from the Mongol period onwards and to some extent, in different periods, by the Persians. Remember, Saladin was a Turk. The sea routes were monopolized by Arab traders. Not all people in the Islamic world are "Arabians". Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu > Direct trade with China in Europe did not begin until after the >Marco Polo expedition, sometime around 1297. Up to that point all trade >with China was the monopoloy of the Arabians, who traded with India and >China, and thereby controlled the silk and spice routes. > >Lorina J. Stephens >author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ >embroiderer, restorer, artist >http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html > >------------------------------ > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:52:27 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: sorry Well, now I have to grovel. I inadvertantly sent the whole digest with my last message. Deepest apologies, honest. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:18:39 -0500 From: felicia m ciaudelli Subject: A Rather Unusual Question Good afternoon, everyone!! I've been a lurker for quite a while, but now I have a question. WARNING!!! Please do not read during your lunch, if you might be easily nauseated!! And my apologies for making my first question a rather *Yukky* one. I read in an Anya Seton book, *Katherine*, which was set around tenth/eleventh century England, I believe, that the odor of the *outhouses*/*latrines*, or whatever they were called in those days, was an excellent moth preventative. Was this true? And does anyone know how this got started? Thanks in advance for any help!! Felicia Ciaudelli i000347@disch3.disc.dla.mil - or- FELICIAMARIE@delphi.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000347 sends (felicia ciaudelli)... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:12:12 -0500 From: Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf Subject: flame retardency You may want to consider synthetic fibers (even tho you prefer cotton) because many are inherently flame resistent. For example, polyester. My company manufacturers children's sleepwear. We often use synthetics as the treatments for cotton and other natural fibers is often nasty chemicals. In fact, I have recently been contacting domestic mills for treated cottons to use in a UK marketing project and have been told "no way, they won't touch the chemically treated stuff because it makes their workers ill." Regards, Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:29:44 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: A Rather Unusual Question > > I read in an Anya Seton book, *Katherine*, which was set around tenth/eleventh > century England, I believe, that the odor of the *outhouses*/*latrines*, or > whatever they were called in those days, was an excellent moth preventative. Sounds like one of those cases where the cure is worse than the disease. ;> Drea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:01:13 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Eyeglasses >From a note by Val Winkler/Kate Oakley: > Rachel Rufer asked when people started wearing eyeglasses. > ... we just went today to the exhibit of paintings from Burghley > House and there was a painting by Francesco Trevisani (1656-1746) > of the Mocking of Christ. (snip) A sign next to the painting said > eyeglasses were invented about, I think it said, 1280 (!) but their > depiction in paintings is most unusual. > This leads to another question - how often did people wear their glasses in various time periods? For American Revolution (1770's - 1780's) reenacting, we are fortunate to have repro frames available as well as optometrists who will put corrective lenses into them. Rumor has it, though, that there is a greater percentage of reenactors wearing glasses than people would have done in that time period. This would be partially due to the affordability of glasses, but I hear someone who owned glasses would not always wear them. Perhaps they were seen as a sign of weakness or considered to be unattractive. Certainly not worn by most people when sitting for a portrait! Does anyone have additional information for this or any other time period on wearing glasses? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:09:20 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs List - reply Worldwide Books 1001West Seneca Street Ithaca, NY 14850 They are specialists in art exhibition catalogs. They produce a list of available titles broken down by subject so you can find costume/fashion titles. Of course, portrait exhibits are also helpful. I've purchased U.S. and Spanish imprints from them. They are very helpful and I believe they have a web page (sorry,lost the address). Marsha >Does anyone know how or where I can obtain a comprehensive list of costume >exhibition catalogs published worldwide between 1985-current. > >I find costume exhibition catalogs that have full-length photographs of >original costumes on dummies one of the best sources for study, but I have >been unable to find a complete list. > >I would appreciate any suggestions. > >Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:35:51 -0500 From: COakley@AOL.COM Subject: How I Started... Wayne et al, Can't resist... The SCA not only started me in making historic costumes, but in SEWING. Well, I'd made curtains and napkins. But a disastrous experience back in junior high school with an "EASY" sundress pattern (I must have ripped out every seam at least twice and Mom still had to fix it for me) had convinced me I couldn't sew anything more complex than a straight hem. However. My husband and I got hooked on Renn Faires about 1989. We wanted to dress up. We didn't want to pay the prices Renn Faire folks want for garb. So we bought the basics, then I managed to reverse-engineer a peasant shirt and baggy trews for him and a skirt, bodice and muffin-cap for me. We were off! When we finally stopped moving all over the country and had time for it in 1992, we re-located the SCA (we'd been aware of it for ten years before that) and soon realized we needed better clothes. So I learned to use patterns. Then I learned to adapt patterns. Then I learned fitting. Now I have people amazed at my sewing ability, though to me it's basically a necessity-is-a-mother thing. What I do with clothes we don't use any more is sell them through a merchant friend, at a discount depending on how used they are. I also occasionally make clothes for sale, though I make them to be sold cheaply and therefore they're not to the standard of our own clothes, which are increasingly "authentic" to the extent that I bought 80 yards of linen at Pennsic to upgrade our underwear. (I'm trying to convince my husband it's NOT going to become an arming pavilion, now that he's discovered documentation for linen pavilions!) 'Nuff rambling for today. Regards------------- Val WInkler (SCA: Kate Oakley) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:09:43 -0600 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs >Worldwide Books >1001West Seneca Street >Ithaca, NY 14850 > >They are specialists in art exhibition catalogs. They produce a list of >available titles broken down by subject so you can find costume/fashion >titles. Of course, portrait exhibits are also helpful. I've purchased >U.S. and Spanish imprints from them. They are very helpful and I believe >they have a web page (sorry,lost the address). Thank you Marsha for mentioning this! I just checked out their web site & I plan to look in more depth later. I too was looking for info on exhibition catalogs & this looks good since they keep records of catalogs even if they are out of print (for the reference value). BTW, I found their web address by the old rule - try www.(company name).com It's http://www.worldwide.com/ Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:49:55 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: How I got into costuming It's interesting to hear people's stories. I didn't realize the SCA played such a large role in getting people into costuming. I've already told my saga--but when it comes right down to it, the real reason I got into costuming is a complete, utter, hopeless and unrequited love of fabric. Brocade fabric, silk fabric, satin and linen and gauze and taffeta, you name it. Drea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:11:38 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: uniquely you (fwd) Gretchen Beck Computing Services Carnegie Mellon University ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:19:27 -0800 From: Axel Niesen To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: uniquely you can you provide me with an address/phone no of an 'uniqely you' dealer in my neighbor hood (newbury Park, CA 91320) ??? Thanks a million!!! Axel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:09:42 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Exhibition Catalogs Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote: > > >Worldwide Books > >1001West Seneca Street > >Ithaca, NY 14850 > > > >They are specialists in art exhibition catalogs. They produce a list of > >available titles broken down by subject so you can find costume/fashion > >titles. Of course, portrait exhibits are also helpful. I've purchased > >U.S. and Spanish imprints from them. They are very helpful and I believe > >they have a web page (sorry,lost the address). > > Thank you Marsha for mentioning this! I just checked out their web > site & I plan to look in more depth later. I too was looking for > info on exhibition catalogs & this looks good since they keep records of > catalogs even if they are out of print (for the reference value). > BTW, I found their web address by the old rule - try www.(company name).com > It's http://www.worldwide.com/ > > Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of > Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They > p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever > p**s one off. > - Spider Robinson, > _The Callahan Touch_ > > (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of > the Kansas City MO Public Library.) I tried it on a search for "costume/fashion" and they turned up 26 titles. I used to put out a catalogue aaveraging 1400 titles and a good half of them were exhibit cataloges.... It doesn't make sense. try Fred Struther's catalogue fsbkd@mcn.org it is not on-line but he will mail you one snail mail for free. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Nov 1996 to 12 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Nov 14 12:35:11 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19281 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 14 Nov 1996 06:01:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199611140501.AA19281@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5373; Thu, 14 Nov 96 00:01:16 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9381; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:01:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Nov 1996 to 13 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 463 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Linen Cleaning (2) 2. Various (4) 3. Unmentionable substances (2) 4. Various Unmentionable Substances (3) 5. lace (2) 6. Veils - to bead, or not to bead 7. Italian ren outfit ornamentation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:12:29 -0500 From: COakley@AOL.COM Subject: Linen Cleaning Help, please!! I missed some of the Sep/Oct discussion on cleaning stains from linen, due to downloading errors on my part (AOL puts very long messages in a file, and I lost a few h-costume digests). I got the part about not using bleach, and the part on the nature of waterstains, but I can't find the info I need by reading back through my printed copies. Since I don't want you all to have to go through it again, if someone can help please Email me off list at coakley@aol.com. The problem is a quilted arming coat (gambeson or jupon) of off-white and dark green linen, with dark green leather appliques. The lady who made it said it was probably washable, since she had pre-washed and soaked everything, but she couldn't guarantee it. Since this gambeson will eventually be used for SCA fighting (read: sweating in), it has to be washable, so I tried it. After a cold water machine wash, it came out with spots from the leather dye. I immediately applied Z'OUT and with vigorous hand scrubbing most of the stain came out. I rolled the gambeson in towels to get out the excess water, and hung it to dry. Now it is completely dry, but dye bled into the white linen from both the green linen and the leather while it was drying. If I use Z'OUT or DiDi 7, the cleaning substance has to be washed out with water, which I am afraid means it will just bleed again while drying. What I need is a way to gently lift out the stain without getting the garment wet again, and without resorting to dry cleaning. I realize I'll have to re-do the treatment every time this thing is washed, but I'm fanatic enough about garb looking good that I will do it. So, will lemon juice or peroxide, applied with a cotton swab, and sunshine work??? If not, what do you suggest? Many thanks to anyone who can help. Val Winkler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:47:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf said >You may want to consider synthetic fibers (even tho you prefer cotton) >because many are inherently flame resistent. For example, polyester. We may be talking at cross-purposes here, but I have always been taught to avoid man-made fibres around fires as they will melt on you - they may not catch fire under the temperatures involved, but you will still end up with a very nasty burn. Wool is fire-resistant and won't melt on you. As a cook I've worked a lot around open fires and the skirt I usually wear has quite a few holes from cinders but nothing more serious has ever developed. I would be horrified if someone turned up at an event in a polyester outfit, and not just on authenticity grounds! Cotton is pretty flamable, but I don't know about linen - does anyone know? I think it just chars, like wool. The worst costume fire I know of involved a woman who had been a chandler and had made the wicks for the candles, involving boiling nitrites (?) into the wicks. She had a heavy linen apron and had carefully boiled it to get the wax out of the fabric. However this had boiled the nitrites into the apron, so when it caught in a fire the apron went up rapidly. She was wearing a wool bodice and skirt and they got the apron off her quickly, so she wasn't burnt, but was very shocked. One helpful factor was that she always put her apron on last, so there was nothing hindering getting it off her. Every since I have been a terror for advising people to put the belt on *under* the apron - its amazing how many catch their apron in the belt, which would make it very difficult to get off if the apron did catch fire. 'Hearthdeath' was the second most common cause of death of women in the Tudor period. Re Eyeglasses In the Tudor period they were very expensive, so even those who could afford them would have taken great care of them, and probably not worn them when not using them. I think my mailing about the type of correction when amiss - only one kind of lense could be manufactured but I can't remember whether it was for long or short sight! Re: Jakes, Privy etc Tudor terms for the loo. There is a book to be written about this, although I don't think anyone has. In fact the term 'water closet' is appropriate in the latter part of the 16th century. Sir William Harrington is supposed to have installed one in one of the Royal Palaces for Elizabeth I. Quite a lot of castles have them 'hidden' in the walls, with a drop to the outside of the wall. This would give room for storage of clothes, and you do hear it repeated that furs in particular were stored above the storage area to keep moths off. There is a lovely 13th century defensive manor in Kent where the solar section of the house can be completely cut off from the hall, underneath the solar was the storage area for the house which was not accessible from the hall and the upstairs solar had two small rooms off it, one was a chapel, the other a small storage area with a double jakes, which dropped outside the walls. Of course, most clothes would be stored folded, in chests. Maybe these spaces were also used to let the folds drop out, in the breeze from outside! Human urine had all sorts of uses in period, as bleach for washer women, for dyers and tanners (animal urine was also used for the tanning of hides). Nightsoil was collected, (tho not often enough in towns according to the complaints) for use on the land. I have also been told that the floors of cottages were periodically dug up to collect the nitrite (?) crystals for making explosives. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 03:56:12 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Various On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf said > > >You may want to consider synthetic fibers (even tho you prefer cotton) > >because many are inherently flame resistent. For example, polyester. > > We may be talking at cross-purposes here, but I have always been taught to > avoid man-made fibres around fires as they will melt on you - they may not > catch fire under the temperatures involved, but you will still end up with > a very nasty burn. Wool is fire-resistant and won't melt on you. As a > cook I've worked a lot around open fires and the skirt I usually wear has > quite a few holes from cinders but nothing more serious has ever developed. > I would be horrified if someone turned up at an event in a polyester > outfit, and not just on authenticity grounds! > > Cotton is pretty flamable, but I don't know about linen - does anyone know? > I think it just chars, like wool. Margaret Weller here-- I did research a number of years ago, burn-testing quite a number of fabrics. I was concerned, having seen many people show up at SCA events in garb made from materials that struck me as two ways dangerous--hpothermia dangers as well as flammability. Checking my notes, I find that I listed linen with cotton--burns with a slow, steady flame. Rather variable, depending on looseness of weave (loose weaves burn faster) and finish on cloth. Burns to an ash that crumbles to dust, therefore cooling considerably faster than a synthetic with a plastic residue. Polyester takes a little longer than cotton to catch fire, but when it does, it flares and burns considerably faster and hotter than cotton. This goes in spades for rubberized nylon, other nylon, acrylic (including polar fleece) and spandex. and polypropylene. The acrylics I have burn tested remind me of descriptions of napalm (we are talking petroleum productsl, after all). They flare most dramatically and drop large gouts of flaming plastic on anything in the way. If they are on you, they will stick to you and the burns will be truly nasty. The fake fur that is acrylic pile/polypro back has a smaller residue bead. Most children's acrylic sleepers are treated with something that does *not* wash out that keeps them from burning. If they melt, of course, they still stick. But it your child falls into the fire, you will have problems no matter what s/he is wearing... Other fabrics: Rayon--technically a synthetic, it's made from wood fiber and so reacts to flame a lot like cotton. I have not tested the current rayons; finish can make a fabric more or less flammable. Wool--in many ways the safest of fabrics. It *will* catch fire, but if not constantly fed, the flame will die out. No plastic residue to burn you after the fire is out. We ARE speaking of 100% wool here. The ash crumbles to dust. The finish (for instance a permapress finish) may make the fabric more flammable. Sometimes these finishes wash out over time, sometimes not. Wool blends--each one is different and should be tested individually for flammability. Anything less than 50% wool will not have the woolen property of warmth when wet. (I suppose wool/polypro would be an exception to this). Silk--although another animal protein fabric (like wool), it burns more like cotton and leaves a typical natural ash. If you want to do your own burn testing program: First, don't hold the fabric in your fingers. Some of the fabrics nearly explode when they take fire. Tweezers, tongs, needlenose pliers, or a metal stand with clamp will all work. I prefer the stand because otherwise I sometimes forget and part of me (a hand, a knee, a leg) ends up under the flame just as it drips molten plastic. I have a scar on one knee to remind me of this... So make sure you are neither *under* or *over* the test piece. Don't wear flowing clothes while doing this, either. Roll up your sleeves; if you have long hair, tie it up or back. Do it outside over cement or damp ground to avoid starting fires you didn't intend. Another reason to do it outside is that the fumes it generates are NOT GOOD for you. The extension service where I live has a handout that tells how to prepare fire-retardant solutions to apply to fabric, and gives assessments of effectiveness, i.e. does it weaken fabric, how long does it take for cloth treated with it to catch, etc.. Also gives a list of facts, like the fact that these compounds wash out, and so must be replaced after each laundering. Your extension service may have something similar. Or, if there is interest, I could type my copy in (I don't have a scanner or such like). I'd be happy to do it, but I may have 'talked' everyone's ears off on the topic already. Nightsoil was collected, (tho not often enough in towns according > to the complaints) for use on the land. A wonderfully efficient use of waste which has fallen out of use as people become more aware of the principles of parasitology. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:22:36 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Various > > Human urine had all sorts of uses in period, as bleach for washer women, > for dyers and tanners (animal urine was also used for the tanning of > hides). Nightsoil was collected, (tho not often enough in towns according > to the complaints) for use on the land. I have also been told that the > floors of cottages were periodically dug up to collect the nitrite (?) > crystals for making explosives. > > Caroline I was told by a Chinese woman that it was traditional in her village for women to wash their faces with baby urine to improve their complexions! I have also heard of people drinking their own urine to IMPROVE their immune systems! Go figure. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:07:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Unmentionable substances Apparently babies' urine cures warts too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:01:26 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Various Hmm, I know one of the women in my acquaintance in the SCA earned her Laurel in the Arts for creating paints in an old-fashioned method; grind up the appropriate minerals for the tint, egg yolk, and an acid to help bind the other ingredients together. The most easily accessable acid in the Middle Ages would have been urine. Also- In one of Morgan Llwelyn's books, one of the characters mentions using urine to bathe a severe burn. (Urine is actually sterile, so this is not as horrible as it sounds.) Yours, NSN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:09:09 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, R.L. Shep wrote: > > Human urine had all sorts of uses in period, as bleach for washer women, > for dyers and tanners (animal urine was also used for the tanning of > hides). One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. Drea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:33:39 -0500 From: Eileen Watson Subject: lace Can anyone help me with a homework assignment on the Swiss lace produced by machine called "shefley" (sp.)or something to that nature? I need who, when where(city, textile firm) fabric used and price then and now. Thanks in advance for any help. Eileen Watson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:35:49 +0000 From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Subject: Veils - to bead, or not to bead Howdy! I have a question regarding beading on veils. Is it period (specifically for 10th C. Anglo-Saxon or Byzantine)? Also, would it be a beaded design "embroidered" around the edge, or a beaded fringe, or possibly both? And how complex? Any information would be appreciated! Thanks ... Eowen Annesdohtor mka Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com "Nobody told me that living happily ever after would be such hard work ..." S. White O- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:51:15 -0500 From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Italian ren outfit ornamentation Does anyone have any sort of reference to find out what men wore? I've gone thru 4 books of paintings and have yet to see anything. I have a bad photocopy of Journey of the Magii and something is being worn. It might be a wire braid formed into loops with jems in the middle. I'm not sure. Perhaps it is a metal chain attached to jems and worn over the chiopa as opposed to something that is sewn onto the jacket? I've hunted thru for all titles with renaissance, venetian and fashion and no luck. - Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:22:40 -0600 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: Unmentionable substances At 05:07 PM 11/13/96 GMT, you wrote: >Apparently babies' urine cures warts too. > > Hey, I've got an unlimited supply of the stuff if anyone is interested in mail-ordering it :). Nancee (potty training can't be that far away...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:34:06 -0800 From: A Alexander Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances >>On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, R.L. Shep wrote: >> Human urine had all sorts of uses in period, as bleach for washer women, >> for dyers and tanners (animal urine was also used for the tanning of >> hides). > >At 13:09 13/11/96 -0500, Drea wrote: >One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was >scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week >and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. > >Drea One constituent of a good home-made compost is human urine. When left out in the fresh air the unpleasant vapours evaporate and the resulting liquid is not unsavoury. Until the 1960's traditional barbers kept a jar of old urine on their counters in which to dip their combs for that final "run-through" after a haircut. It is supposed to be good for the hair as well as cutting down on hair sebum. Of course the customer never knew what the magic lotion contained... Worth thinking about. Anna [h-costume lurker] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:03:45 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Linen Cleaning Could anyone who responds to the post about linen cleaning please post it to the list? I know I could use some hints about this and I was not on the list when this discussion took place originally. Thanks!! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:24:15 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: Re: lace At 01:33 PM 11/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone help me with a homework assignment on the Swiss lace produced by >machine called "shefley" (sp.)or something to that nature? It is spelled schiffli >I need who, when where(city, textile firm) fabric used and price then and >now. Thanks in advance for any help. Eileen Watson Doing a quick go through the rolodex, I found: Joesph Bros. Embroidery 6030 Monroe Place West New York, New York 07093 212-564-2174 They specilize in schiffli and venisse laces. I ran into them several years ago at a TALA show. Give'm a shot. They are a manufacturer, not a jobber. They may have minimums but you may try to get sample yardage (usually 10 yds). Back to my regularly scheduled lurking;-) Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:54:40 -0800 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, aleed wrote: > On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, R.L. Shep wrote: > > > Human urine had all sorts of uses in period, as bleach for washer women, > > for dyers and tanners (animal urine was also used for the tanning of > > hides). > > One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was > scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week > and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. Yeah, it was used to bleach things too. ;) Seriously, when my woad crop is ready, I'm planning to try the ... traditional method. (But then, I used to do taxidermy and skeletal preparations -- it takes a lot to gross me out.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Nov 1996 to 13 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Nov 15 09:56:07 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA26052 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 15 Nov 1996 06:02:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199611150502.AA26052@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7128; Fri, 15 Nov 96 00:01:49 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4845; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:01:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Nov 1996 to 14 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 27 messages totalling 922 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Chem/Urine 2. Various (2) 3. Various Unmentionable Substances (2) 4. Unmentionable substances and dyes 5. Costume & Dressmaker (7) 6. 7. Urine & Dyestuffs 8. Urine Used As A Rinse For Dyes 9. H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Nov 1996 to 13 Nov 1996 10. eyeglasses & Arabs (2) 11. Pee Pee again... ;> 12. mid-19thc women's underwear (3) 13. 1860's underpinnings 14. flame retardency 15. urine 16. waulking cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:23:39 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: Chem/Urine One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. ---------------------------------------------------- The reason for leaving the urine for a week was to let the urea break down into ammonia which is a more effective mordant for most dyes - It "eats" into the fiber. Our urine contains urea which is two ammonias held together by another small molecule; it is way less toxic than ammonia. Urea is added to many hand lotions because it was found that it is a good "hydrator" - it hold water and so moisturizes the skin. (Look in the ingredients section of the label...) To save the weight of dragging around a liquid-filled bladder, birds produce a crystalline "urine" product called uric acid - It's the pasty white part of bird droppings. I've gotten "splotched" a couple of times and the shirts had "bleached" patches - not very strong, but visible... Now I wish I'd saved them....Hmmmmm, maybe I'll check it out this summer. I know this light pole where the seagulls congregate... ("Honestly, Officer, I'm just doing a chemistry experiment....") Bonnie G. B) -------------------------------------------------|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 01:49:10 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Various > I was told by a Chinese woman that it was traditional in her village for > women to wash their faces with baby urine to improve their complexions! And in the Yemen, women traditionally use camels' urine for a hair rinse, to control lice. If the breeze is right, my informant said, you can smell the woman almost as far as you can see her.... Conrad Hodson who thinks that an awful lot of "tradition" consists of Really Bad Ideas... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:49:40 +0000 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances > One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was > scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week > and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. A dung-bath was traditionally used in India to finish their acclaimed and hotly desired cottons. I think as a mordant. Dorothy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:46:57 +0000 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Unmentionable substances and dyes > >Seriously, when my woad crop is ready, I'm planning to try the ... >traditional method. (But then, I used to do taxidermy and skeletal >preparations -- it takes a lot to gross me out.) I'd be interested to hear how this goes - everything I've ever read on the subject refers to the terrible stench of woad dye. I recently had to do some research on the use of natural dyes (for a talk on clothing worn by hobbits - as in the works of JRR Tolkien). A number of the books I consulted on dying referred to the use of ammonia in order to obtain red and sometimes purple hues - particularly when obtaining dyes from certain lichens. Urine, of course, would be perfect for this type of thing. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:11:29 PST From: Lena Meyer Subject: Costume & Dressmaker Has anyone seen this new publication: Costume & Dressmaker, the Magazine for the Serious Costumer. It is for concentration of costume study and production, and a bi-monthly magazine. It was announced in a CSA newsletter. Would like to know more about it, if anyone has read it. I am considering subscribing. Thanks. Lena ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:26:51 -0700 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances I've also heard that the gypsies (a generic term, as opposed to the Romany) used urine as a hair rinse. Urine was also used in the fulling process for finishing cloth. Morgan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:44:27 -0500 From: Dawn Vukson-Van Beek Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:11:29 PST Lena wrote... >Has anyone seen this new publication: >Costume & Dressmaker, the Magazine >for the Serious Costumer. It is for concentration >of costume study and production, and a bi-monthly >magazine. It was announced in a CSA newsletter. >Would like to know more about it, if anyone has >read it. I am considering subscribing. Thanks. If anyone has the information please post it tothe list, I am interested also. Dawn Vukson-Van Beek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:43:32 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker Dawn Vukson-Van Beek wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:11:29 PST Lena wrote... > >Has anyone seen this new publication: > >Costume & Dressmaker, the Magazine > >for the Serious Costumer. It is for concentration > >of costume study and production, and a bi-monthly > >magazine. It was announced in a CSA newsletter. > >Would like to know more about it, if anyone has > >read it. I am considering subscribing. Thanks. > > If anyone has the information please post it tothe list, I am interested > also. > Dawn Vukson-Van Beek I remember asking for a Review Copy for RAGS. I was told that they wanted to get a few issues under their belts before doing that (which I certainly can understand for a new publication). My sense tells me that they were going to start this fall and I expected to see an issue after the end of the year. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:52:16 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker That makes three of us. I have been tossing around the idea of getting a subscription for me and one for a fellow costume junkie in my area. Yours, Noelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:43:51 -0400 From: Rich Williamson Subject: Philadelphia Suburbs: ****NOTE: THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF OPENINGS SO SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM FOR THE SECOND ONE. Local Costumer with an large national presence is looking to fill an immediate opening. This is a "fun" position with very few rigid rules and guidelines, so self-starters are desired. We are looking for creative, intelligent people with good verbal skills. The ideal candidate would have experience in the following fields: Theatrical productions, sewing, clothing construction, retail sales, business management, retail display, verbal and written communication, managing others, and basic scheduling. One doesn't have to have experience in all these fields but, it helps. The position is never boring. The work changes every day. Some days you will be pulling together a group of costumes for a professional theatrical production, the next you will be talking about make-up to a film director. Later you might be designing and working on an NFL team mascot, then creating costumes for a convention. Depending on experience one might: sketch & design outfits, buy fabric & forecast costs, construct outfits, work with retail customers, organize costumes and accessories for large events, work on retail displays, meet with directors to discuss productions, help customers with theatrical make-up & wigs, alter costumes for costume rentals, and much more. We are looking for a full-time employee that has aspirations toward moving on to managing, and running large projects. We are also looking for part-time and full-time help in an all-around capacity. Pierre's is a combination of three different costumers, the oldest being since 1876. We continue to maintain two separate retail locations in the Philadelphia suburbs. Pierre is one of the world's foremost Costumers with over 40,000 different costumes to chose from, making it by far the largest costume shop in area, and one of the largest in the country. Pierre's has maintained a complete full service professional costume house, designing and manufacturing on the premises, this allows the public and theatrical organizations the opportunity of renting from a wide range of top quality in-house manufactured costume or original historic garments. Pierre's continues to design and manufacture mascots for schools, parades, costumes for Television Personalities, Movies, Musicians, Performers, and many others. This is a five day a week job from 10-5:30 with a paid break for lunch. There are various benefits that can be discussed in person. Salaries are dependant upon the individual's experience and ability to perform various jobs. ****** We are also filling skilled positions for theatrical tailors. We recently won a huge contract to provide costumes for one of the largest theatres in the country. The position would be long-term. The individual should have some level of formal training in costume or clothing manufacture. Many years of experience would also be acceptable. We have industrial sewing equipment to help with the job. Again the environment is laid back, and we try to take care of our employees. ***** If you are interested and want to learn more about the position, please call Rich Williamson at the phone number below to discuss setting up an interview. Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax NOTE: 9-27-96 new address: costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:59:43 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker Hi List, I am the publisher of COSTUME & DRESSMAKER, The Magazine For Serious Costumers. Issue 1 has been published, and mailed. There are more copies available. Issue 2 is about to go to press, with Issue 3 very shortly thereafter. Issue 4 is due out around Feb 1, which will put me back on schedule. I am eagerly looking for advertisers, both classified and display. The magazine is about any kind of costuming, historic reproduction/SF/Fantasy/stage/film. There are regular columns on book & product reviews, costuming in cyberspace, a comprehensive calendar of costume related events and advertisers of products of interest to costumers. I am learning the business as I go along, so each issue will be bigger and better than the previous one. I currently do B/W, but plan to go color with the April issue. Subscriptions are $18 for six issues (bimonthly), cash/check/MO. Subscribers outside the US and Canada, please contact me. Anyone who refers a business that becomes an advertiser gets a free subscription. Anyone who sends in six subscriptions plus their own, gets theirs for free. All subscriptions begin with Issue 1 until I run out. If you are interested in writing an article, or have a request for a specific type of article, drop me a note. Thanks for the inquiries! Cordially, Mary Denise Smith Costume & Dressmaker 4500 19th St #298 Boulder CO 80304-0619 mdsdmb@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:54:00 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Urine & Dyestuffs For a comprehensive and useable description of dyestuffs/mordants/rinses, refer to MEDIEVAL DYES by Jodi Smith. There are thorough discussions of fibers, dyestuffs, mordants, rinses and methodology in the book. Jodi is a widely experienced weaver and dyer. The book is $12, self published, from Spinning Madly 6333 East Highway 402 Loveland CO 80537 Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:54:22 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Urine Used As A Rinse For Dyes After a fiber, yarn or fabric is dyed, it is rinsed. The rinsing liquid has a profound effect on the final color of the textile. Water (hard or soft, spring, polluted river, rain, etc), vinegar, urine (stale or fresh), etc all add to the chemical soup. Try it sometime. Do a small dyebath of, say, marigold flowers for yarn or strips of wool fabric pre-mordanted in alum. Give each labeled sample a different final rinse. Some differences will be small, others astounding. Cordially, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:54:10 PST From: Venus Envy Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Nov 1996 to 13 Nov 1996 I can't believe peopel are fussing this much about urine. Havne't you ever used Procion dyes? Hi tech - wonderful color - and they sell crystalized urea with it still because it's the best stuff around. I have a packet or two in my supplies as we speak... -heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:04:36 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: eyeglasses & Arabs People in Europe and America are often unaware of the contributions of Arabs and the Islamic world in general to science, technology, and learning during the "Golden Age" in the Middle East approx. 700-1250 C.E. Many Greek scientific and philosophical texts entered Europe from Arab translations of Greek works. There was a concerted state-sponsored effort in the 9th and 10th century Arab world to translate Greek works. These were found throughout the Arab empire whose influence at times extended from Spain (and almost southern France) to China. Some scientific discoveries documented in the Arab world prior to their "discovery" in Renaissance Europe include: - Study of optics, lenses (Ibn al-Haytham, who died in 1039 wrote a definitive work which although not a best seller in the Arab world became highly prized in Europe at the end of the 13th century.) - The circulation of blood through vessels in the body (known in the Arab world hundreds of years before Harvey) - Early realization of health tied to environment (in medieval Baghdad, the site for a hospital was determined by hanging raw meat on posts around the city. The meat that decayed the slowest was where the hospital was built) - Urban safety (several cities has urban supported city lighting, i.e. lamps hung in the street by the city, not local homeowners, to reduce crime and easy travel) - Air conditioning (several systems were available including evaporation screens, wind catching chimneys, and domes filled with ice brought down from the mountains) Arabic translations of Greek texts found in libraries in Spain (esp.Granada) after the Reconquest culminated in 1492 were translated by Jewishs scholars into Latin. Some say that is where the European Renaissance got extra force. Remember almost every technical term that begins with "al" (Arabic for "the") is of Arab origin. Alcohol, algebra, alchemy, are just a few. Other Arabic words in common use are zenith, zero, coffee, cotton, and sherbet. Of course, the creation of complex textile patterns (pomegranates, Arabesques, etc., cut velvets, etc.) was a feature of the Middle East which was widely imitated in Renaissance Italy. As was metal working, horse breeding, ......off the soapbox. Marsha >>>So the first _corrective lenses_ are Medieval European. >> Depends on which source you read. Some attribute corrective lenses >>to the Arabians, and the Venetians stole some of their craftsmen and >>sequestered them on the island of Murano, where they were able to produce >>lenses in mass quantities. > >I'm _pretty_ sure the only source for this theory is the (quite wonderful) >"Niccolo" series of historical novels, written by Dorothy Dunnett. If >anyone has other info on the origins of corrective lenses (other than the >late 13th C. Italian attribution, which I have...somewhere....) I would be >most grateful for the citations. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:53:18 -0800 From: The Polsons Subject: Pee Pee again... ;> Various ladies said: >Also- In one of Morgan Llwelyn's books, one of the characters mentions using >urine to bathe a severe burn. (Urine is actually sterile, so this is not as >horrible as it sounds.) Actually, I've heard that many a Vietnam medic died using urine... apparently, when they ran out of water to moisten bandages in the field, they would use urine since it was the next best sterile liquid, and uneducated soldiers, coming upon the scene, would see the medic peeing on their fellow soldier and shoot him on the spot. What the heck... I couldn't resist this tangent. >One of the most revolting dye recepies I've ever come across (it was >scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week >and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. I read in one of Jean Auel's "Clan" books about using urine to bleach suede/leather to a cream or white color. One of these days I'll try it and see what happens... 8-) I imagine after skinning a dead animal, urine wouldn't be so "gross"... (I don't get grossed out easily either, so no big deal!) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:13:49 -0600 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker I haven't seen any copies of the magazine yet, but I know that the woman who puts it out subscribes to h-costume. Her name is Mary Denise Smith. I was asked to write one of the articles for the December issue which is a good enough reason for me to subscribe! Seriously, since she hasn't replied to everyone's questions & since my article was due on November 1st, she may be busy getting the December issue ready for the printers. If she hasn't popped up in a week or so, I'll send her an e-mail to let her know that people are asking about the magazine. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:34:23 EST From: Susan Subject: mid-19thc women's underwear Greetings! I hope someone on this list can give me just a couple of tips on making women's underwear for the 1860's. Two questions. First, am I correct in assuming that the full set of underwear would include: drawers & chemise (under corset) corset corset-cover hoop skirt petticoat (over hoop) Am I missing any bits? :) Second, what forms of decoration are appropriate for this decade? Tucks? Cross-stitch? Other forms of embroidery? Ribbon-roses? Eyelet? Lace? Lace beading? Colored ribbons? White ribbons? No ribbons? I have several books that give a reasonable overview for the period on designing the outer garments, but very little on the underwear other than the corset and hoop. Thanks for any help you can offer! Susan susan@pcnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:45:14 -0600 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: Costume & Dressmaker Subscriptions to the bimonthly Costume and Dressmaker are $18 per year. contact: Mary Denise Smith 4500 19th St. #298 Boulder, CO 80304-0619 303-546-6223 FAX 303-546-6870 MDSDMB@aol.com Nancee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:25:28 EST From: LuAnn Mason Subject: Re: mid-19thc women's underwear On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:34:23 EST Susan writes: >Greetings! > >I hope someone on this list can give me just a couple of tips on >making women's underwear for the 1860's. > >Two questions. First, am I correct in assuming that the full set >of underwear would include: > >drawers & chemise (under corset) yes >corset yes >corset-cover >From what I understand, this was a maybe--some women wore 'em and some didn't. In my opinion, they're not necessary. The chemise protects your corset from body oils and perspiration, and your dress doesn't have any.. ;) >hoop skirt Depends on what you want to do. If you're going to be doing a more "active" living history (cooking, scrubbing, hauling wood, etc.) then hoops are down right dangerous, not to mention uncomfortable. If you decide against hoops, try a corded petticoat--keeps your skirts from wrapping around your ankles, holds the dress out, and most importantly, DOESN'T poke you in the backside when you try to sit down. >petticoat (over hoop) This is a maybe for me--if your hoopskirt bones show through your dress, then you need a petticoat. It's more important, IMO, to have a petticoat UNDER your hoops. When you bend, even a little, there's an awful lot to see, and a petticoat UNDER the hoop minimizes the peep show. >Am I missing any bits? :) >Second, what forms of decoration are appropriate for this decade? >Tucks? Cross-stitch? Other forms of embroidery? Ribbon-roses? >Eyelet? Lace? Lace beading? Colored ribbons? White ribbons? >No ribbons? I think whitework was most common on underthings, and lace was pretty rare. Tucking and pin tucking seem to be pretty common on the few photos I've seen of originals. Are you asking still specifically about underthings, or decorations in general? Most day dresses look pretty plain to me, with maybe some plain flat braid/trim applied (I'm assuming black velvet, and/or black ribbons/braid, but in a black and white photo, who knows????) If you're making a ballgown, on the other hand, I think an argument can be made for more ornamentation. This is just from my own experience, so take it for what it's worth-- My ballgown is a double skirted pink faux silk (too pale for my age, but I followed the original description <> Now I know better....), with the top skirt "looped up" over the lower skirt. The six scallops are held up with garlands of ribbon roses woven through with narrow ribbons which I made. The bertha is pleated, with a rose "posy" at the V of the neckline. Since I knew lace was pretty scarce, and I wasn't too sure of embroidery being used on outer garments, I kind of opted to be "safe" rather than "sorry." Didn't work though--now I have a gorgeous dress that I love, that is the wrong color..... Oh, well, live and learn, I guess.....<> >Thanks for any help you can offer! Well, other people will probably have lots to add, but I thought I'd take a stab at it! :) Regards-- LuAnn luannmason1@juno.com "I've always been impulsive. My thinking is usually pretty good, but I always seem to do it after I do my talking--by which time I've generally destroyed all basis for further conversation." This Immortal by R. Zelazny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:40:08 EST From: LuAnn Mason Subject: Re: 1860's underpinnings On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:34:23 EST Susan writes: >Greetings! > >I hope someone on this list can give me just a couple of tips on >making women's underwear for the 1860's. > >Two questions. First, am I correct in assuming that the full set >of underwear would include: > >drawers & chemise (under corset) yes >corset yes >corset-cover >From what I understand, this was a maybe--some women wore 'em and some didn't. In my opinion, they're not necessary. The chemise protects your corset from body oils and perspiration, and your dress doesn't have any.. ;) >hoop skirt Depends on what you want to do. If you're going to be doing a more "active" living history (cooking, scrubbing, hauling wood, etc.) then hoops are down right dangerous, not to mention uncomfortable. If you decide against hoops, try a corded petticoat--keeps your skirts from wrapping around your ankles, holds the dress out, and most importantly, DOESN'T poke you in the backside when you try to sit down. >petticoat (over hoop) This is a maybe for me--if your hoopskirt bones show through your dress, then you need a petticoat. It's more important, IMO, to have a petticoat UNDER your hoops. When you bend, even a little, there's an awful lot to see, and a petticoat UNDER the hoop minimizes the peep show. >Am I missing any bits? :) >Second, what forms of decoration are appropriate for this decade? >Tucks? Cross-stitch? Other forms of embroidery? Ribbon-roses? >Eyelet? Lace? Lace beading? Colored ribbons? White ribbons? >No ribbons? I think whitework was most common on underthings, and lace was pretty rare. Tucking and pin tucking seem to be pretty common on the few photos I've seen of originals. Are you asking still specifically about underthings, or decorations in general? Most day dresses look pretty plain to me, with maybe some plain flat braid/trim applied (I'm assuming black velvet, and/or black ribbons/braid, but in a black and white photo, who knows????) If you're making a ballgown, on the other hand, I think an argument can be made for more ornamentation. This is just from my own experience, so take it for what it's worth-- My ballgown is a double skirted pink faux silk (too pale for my age, but I followed the original description <> Now I know better....), with the top skirt "looped up" over the lower skirt. The six scallops are held up with garlands of ribbon roses woven through with narrow ribbons which I made. The bertha is pleated, with a rose "posy" at the V of the neckline. Since I knew lace was pretty scarce, and I wasn't too sure of embroidery being used on outer garments, I kind of opted to be "safe" rather than "sorry." Didn't work though--now I have a gorgeous dress that I love, that is the wrong color..... Oh, well, live and learn, I guess.....<> >Thanks for any help you can offer! Well, other people will probably have lots to add, but I thought I'd take a stab at it! :) Regards-- LuAnn luannmason1@juno.com "I've always been impulsive. My thinking is usually pretty good, but I always seem to do it after I do my talking--by which time I've generally destroyed all basis for further conversation." This Immortal by R. Zelazny luannmason1@juno.com "I've always been impulsive. My thinking is usually pretty good, but I always seem to do it after I do my talking--by which time I've generally destroyed all basis for further conversation." This Immortal by R. Zelazny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:05:50 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: flame retardency I would have to disagree here. SOME polyesters are flame resistant, but it is the treatment used on them, not the quality of the fabric itself. Trust me, polyester WILL burn, and when it burns, it melts into your skin and sticks. The only way to know how resistant a fabric is to flame, is to do a flame test on it. Make sure to do this in a very well ventilated area (I do it with all my windows open, on the stove with the hood on), using tweezers to hold the fabric, and with a pie plate or something underneath - with baking soda, a fire extinguisher or sand nearby!!!! Sharon At 01:12 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >You may want to consider synthetic fibers (even tho you prefer cotton) >because many are inherently flame resistent. For example, polyester. > >My company manufacturers children's sleepwear. > >We often use synthetics as the treatments for cotton and other natural >fibers is often nasty chemicals. In fact, I have recently been >contacting domestic mills for treated cottons to use in a UK marketing >project and have been told "no way, they won't touch the chemically >treated stuff because it makes their workers ill." > > > >Regards, > >Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf > ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:16:28 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Various >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:47:00 BST >Reply-To: Mrs C S Yeldham >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: Mrs C S Yeldham >Subject: Various >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > >Cotton is pretty flamable, but I don't know about linen - does anyone know? >I think it just chars, like wool. > Actually, linen burns much the same as cotton!! (I just had to do a Fabric Dictionary, and had to burn test 50 different samples, so I've become quite the wealth of info...) Sharon> ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:28:11 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: eyeglasses & Arabs I posted this a while back, but I don't think it got through. The question was not optics, but optics in frames on the face (eyeglasses)! I have seen no evidence that any Arabs had anything to do with the first eyeglasses. They didn't invent magnifying glasses either--those are classical Greek and Hellenistic. What they _did_ do is preserve many Greek texts through the Dark Ages, at a time when that information was mostly lost in Western Europe. They didn't just preserve them; they studied them too; medieval Arab scientists made some original contributions on top of the Greek material, especially about refraction of light. _Lens grinding_ advanced under the Arabs, possibly because they had the combination of the Greek science and some of the longest-running glassworks in the world available (in the Levant, what is now Lebanon and Syria). It is quite possible that lens grinding came to Italy from the Levant, as some people have mentioned here. But these are _magnifying glasses_, like a cartoon detective uses. And we have a definite mention of a "useful NEW art" in an Italian text, by a priest who "personally met the inventor and talked to him". This useful new art was corrective lenses in frames on the face--eyeglasses. The date of this sermon is 1306, and says the invention was "not twenty years ago" i.e. sometime in the 1280's. I've seen no evidence (written or pictorial) of Arabs wearing _eyeglasses_ before Italians did. Hope this sorts out some of the confusion.... Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:30:50 -0500 From: MsSheep@AOL.COM Subject: Re: urine Hello - Urine was called dyers sig ( dyers secret) and used in blue pots, that is an indigo dye bath. Instructions vary from source to source as to preferred type, with some suggesting male urine , urine from pregnant women ... first morning catch was called for( Higher concentration of urea.) Dianne mssheep@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:34:29 -0500 From: Al De Santis Subject: Re: mid-19thc women's underwear At 01:34 PM 11/14/96 EST, you wrote: >...women's underwear for the 1860's. > >...the full set of underwear would include: > >drawers & chemise (under corset) yes >corset yes >corset-cover highly unlikely (only one example shown in 1865 Godey's) >hoop skirt yes for all but work dresses >petticoat (over hoop) always with hoops, sometimes more than one. > >Am I missing any bits? :) an under petticoat >...what forms of decoration are appropriate for this decade? >Tucks? Common on the skirts of young girl's dresses, occasionally on adult dresses of sheer material. Very commonly used multiple rows on petticoats and occasionally one or two near the bottom of drawers. >Cross-stitch? Not very common except, perhaps, as initials for identification. >Other forms of embroidery? Sometimes on special occasion undergarments, such as for a trousseau. >Ribbon-roses? Never seen or heard of this used. >Eyelet? Used frequently on bottom of drawers, necklines and sleeves of chemises, & petticoat hems. >Lace? Only if you are really rich; lace was still expensive. >Lace beading? Colored ribbons? White ribbons? No ribbons? No ribbons were the most typical. We have never seen any undergarments with any beading. Might we suggest Cunnington's "History of Underwear" Dover Press has reprinted it. Alexa Fletcher and Glenna Jo Christen al.desantis@sympatico.ca gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:08:57 -0500 From: Naelina@AOL.COM Subject: waulking cloth This summer I studied Scottish Gaelic in Canada, and we learned waulking songs - songs sung by women (and men) while mashing urine-soaked (we used water) wool on a corregated table to soften it and make the weave tighter and warmer. Sithiche ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Nov 1996 to 14 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 18 11:29:16 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02733 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 06:03:01 +0100 Message-Id: <199611160503.AA02733@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9597; Sat, 16 Nov 96 00:02:39 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1055; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:02:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:02:35 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Nov 1996 to 15 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 13 messages totalling 333 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dyes (2) 2. Urine & Dyestuffs 3. Thank you! - reply 4. nalbinding 5. Flame retardent fabrics 6. woad/urine mordant 7. Scandinavian Clothing 8. leather, urine, stench 9. woad 10. unsubscribing 11. Oh yeah. 12. Various Unmentionable Substances ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:34:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Dyes Since we seem to have got firmly onto dyes (and what an unshockable lot we are!) does anyone know about medieval/16th century leather dyes? At the moment we are using modern dyes, but we would like to use period ones. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:03:27 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Urine & Dyestuffs I use urea. Isn't that approximately the same thing as urine? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:56:51 -0700 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: Dyes I'll second that request. I'm trying to make a pair of shoes for a costume (Irishwoman's, c.8th cent.) and would like the leather to match the overall colour scheme. Any info would be appreciated Morgan On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > Since we seem to have got firmly onto dyes (and what an unshockable lot we > are!) does anyone know about medieval/16th century leather dyes? At the > moment we are using modern dyes, but we would like to use period ones. > > Caroline > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:45:36 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Thank you! - reply >Thank you for the information on Arabic contributions to science, which I'm >sure barely scratched the surface. I especially appreciate the info on the >text by Ibn al-Haytham, which is most likely the "missing link" I had been >searching for. Thanks for your message. I've never heard the abducted craftsmen story either. >If you would, please satisfy my curiosity on another point: Why would the >degree of rot in meat indicate a more or less favorable site for a >hospital? The speed with which meat would decay was an indication of how bad an environment would be for infection of open wounds. As we all know in pre-antibiotic times, infection of open wounds and burns was a major cause of death. Much later by the time of the American Civil War, the development of tools and speed in amputation (i.e. sawing off a limb and staunching the blood flow before the patient died of shock in approximately 5 minutes), was the modern treatment for infection. My great-grandfather was a surgeon in Pennsylvania in the ACW. His family story from the Battle of Gettysburg was they sawed off arms and legs and threw them out the tent window. When the pile was so high they couldn't throw any more out, they quit operating. I've seen such piles in Matthew Brady photos. Lacking an understanding of germs and transmission of infection, I believe medieval Arabs were making an analogy between an open wound going gangrene and meat decaying; I believe they assumed the unknown factors that slowed one would also slow the other. [Sorry it's off topic of textiles.] Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:01:51 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding A reminder to those who haven't yet sent their $4 for the nalbinding folder I sent out last month: so far, something less than half of the packets I sent out have been acknowledged and paid for. This leaves me pretty well in the hole, as I had figured it out the costs to be as close as possible: no profit for me. This is not to say that I am not extremely grateful to those who did respond. Thanks to you all--and you know who you are--and especially to those who sent $5 instead of $4: every little bit really does help. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:38:50 -0500 From: Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf Subject: Flame retardent fabrics While I don't want to get too far off topic of costuming, I find a need to clarify the positions being expressed regarding fabrics TYPICALLY AND LEGALLY being used for children's sleepwear in the US. We do thousands of tests each year to ascertain the safety levels of the fabrications used in sleepwear. The US Consumer Product Safety Commission has established safety levels that can ONLY be met by using polyester, certain nylons and chemically treated fabrics. My company chooses to stay away from chemical treatments for many of the reasons people have mentioned in their postings - illness and allergic reactions topping the list. If you ever see an actual burn test, you will never doubt the safety of TYPICAL sleepwear polyester again. (I'm not lobbying for anything but it's safety). It must self extinguish completely in order to pass the test. It does not ignite and it does not leave huge globs of molten residue. If someone wants me to send them further information regarding the tests, please e-mail me privately and I will respond. Before the law regarding flammability standards for children's sleepwear were passed, around 55 children a year died in burn related accidents while wearing pre-standard sleepwear. Since the enactment of the law, that number has been reduced to fewer than 5/year. The first fabrics used were treated with the chemical TRIS, which was subsequently found to be carcinogenic. Subsequent to that finding, most standard compliant sleepwear came to be made of polyester. (We typically use polyester jerseys, interlocks, flannels, satin and fleeces along with nylon tricot.) THESE FABARICATIONS HAVE NO FR FINISHES ON THEM - THE FABRICS ARE INHERENTLY FLAME RESISTENT. Another interesting fact is that you can use FR thread, FR fabric, FR beading, FR ribbon and when you sew them all together, the article will not pass the FR test. I received a letter from a consumer last year thanking me for my company's compliance ethics. Her child backed into a kerosene heater and the cloth momentarily ignited. She reported that the fabric hole was less than the size of a US quarter coin and the burn her child sustaned was less than a US dime. I can tell you from many years of first hand experience that the child would either be dead or disfigured had the garment been cotton. Most of the long underwear-type cotton sleepwear you find in the stores is either illegally being sold as sleepwear, or it is treated with the chemicals we have been discussing.The chemically treated fabrics are not even available in this country. Just last week three mills told me they wouldn't touch the stuff for health and liability reasons. The most dangerous part of any fabric fire is the chimney effect you get with loose fitting garments. When the fire is oxygenated from both sides, it burns longer and hotter than if the garment is tight fitting. Sorry to go on and on, but this topic is near and dear to my heart. I have been working with the American Apparel Manufacturers Association to lobby the CPSC to keep the law in tact. They have recently voted to relax the standard and allow for certain garments to be exempt from the standard. Their position is so murky that retailers and manufacturers have many questions and doubts, so it is bound to be confusing for consumers. "Parent's" magazine even misreported the new policy in their November issue. Thanx for listening. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:46:55 -0500 From: Carolyn Hastings Subject: woad/urine mordant I dyed wool some years ago with woad, using urine as a mordant. I did the fermenting in the basement and there was no oder problem to speak of. I did use a glass jar and there was a lid; perhaps the lid was on to tightly because after I noticed a crack in the jar. Thank goodness there were no leaks, but plastic might be safer. I think perhaps the odor problem might have been with much larger batches and using wooden tubs, which are porous. Also apparently the woad was crushed and dried on a huge scale for later use, and this smelled very bad even without the urine being added. Perhaps urine may be used as a bleach, but in this case it's a chemical process that is a reducing agent that, if I remember correctly, enables the dye to go into solution. Rita Buchannan has a very good discussion in A Weaver's Garden. The resulting color (using second year plants) was a steel blue, more grey than blue, really. You might want to experiment with harvesting your woad at different seasons, and on different soils. Carolyn H. etherege@aol,com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:51:21 -0700 From: Natascha Storms Subject: Scandinavian Clothing Dear H-costume people, I have a report due in a couple weeks on Scandinavian clothing. If anyone out there has any information please give me a brain dump. Any time period is okay and any class is too though peasant is preferable. Viking is good too. Anything and everthing on Scandinavian clothing is perfectly wonderful. If you even know of any books that would be great. I have been a lurker here for a while but have never had and opportunity or reason to write. Thanks to you all. Oh and thanks for the Nalbinding packet that is really great even if I did only get it today (its called snail mail for a reason I guess). Respectfully yours, Natascha Storms @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ "What if you rub-up against it? @ @ I'm always rubbing-up against things" @ @ -Cristi Jenkins @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:36:28 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: leather, urine, stench At 10:34 AM 11/15/96 BST, you wrote: >does anyone know about medieval/16th century leather dyes? At the >moment we are using modern dyes, but we would like to use period ones. >Caroline On dyeing leather: There is a period phamlet series called the "Picthlo" by Rossetti. It is a collection of late 16th c. dye recipes. These pamphlets are broken down into catagories which include "To dye by the lesser art", "To give dye to cloth by the greater art", and "To give colour to skins". There are some problems with using Rossetti's recipes as he was a shipping clerk and not guild dyer. But they are a great place to start if you have a lot of patience, a strong stomache, and access to some pretty strange ingredients, like roche alum, gum arabic, and arsenic. As soon as one of my students returns my notes, I'll post the ISBN for it. On using urine: Most everyone seems to have used urine for reducing indigo or woad, but it was also used with red wine to reduce brazilwood chips and madder. I have a 13th c. recipe for reducing brazilwood which I have used and it works as well as rubbing alcohol. Unfortunately, the recipe along with the original latin text is in the same binder as the Rossetti notes. On stench: In my experience, nothing smells as bad as cochenial! It smells like a ill-kept natural history museum... x50;-) I've done small batches of indigo and I've had very little reaction to it. When cooking the cochenial, we had to wear surgical masks with rose petals in them to keep from retching ...... but the silk was the most beautiful shade of deep pinky red when we were done. Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:47:00 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: woad At 07:54 PM 11/13/96 -0800, you wrote: >Yeah, it was used to bleach things too. ;) >Seriously, when my woad crop is ready, I'm planning to try the ... >traditional method. (But then, I used to do taxidermy and skeletal >preparations -- it takes a lot to gross me out.) >Heather Rose Jones The trick seems to be to use first year leaves only....and to pull all the seeds just before they drop to replant next year. You seem to get a really diminished blue with second year leaves. Another reason to pull the seeds is that woad is listed as a noxious plant in California. It will take over the natives very quickly. Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 22:18:51 -0500 From: SCMom@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unsubscribing It has been real fun reading along with this list. However, for now, I have all the information I need. At least until more planning gets underway for our Tricentennial. I thank you all for the information, and the tidbits I picked up from those of you that were/are doing projects from the same era that I need. Thank you to all of you. And now for the silly question... I forgot. How do I unsubscribe? Regards, Kathy :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 22:20:31 -0500 From: SCMom@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oh yeah. Oh. And then how do I resubscribe, just incase I need more specific information in the future? Regards, again ... Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:42:37 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: Various Unmentionable Substances In message dstein@SAS.AC.UK wrote: > > One of the most revolting dye recipies I've ever come across (it was > > scottish) specified that a tub of urine be left out in the sun for a week > > and stirred daily before being used to dye cloth indigo. Bleach. > A dung-bath was traditionally used in India to finish their acclaimed > and hotly desired cottons. I think as a mordant. Dorothy And also in India, the *original* source of the painters' pigment known as "Indian Red" was the urine of cows that had been fed on madder leaves... Meanwhile, back in the UK, sheeps' urine was once used as a mordant bath in the dying of yarn for Hebridean home-spun cloth; perhaps ladies who now use a scent called "Tweed" don't realise that it's supposed to be a synthetic recreation of the stink of stale sheeps' stale? < Paul > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Nov 1996 to 15 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 18 11:29:17 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04974 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 17 Nov 1996 06:01:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199611170501.AA04974@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0520; Sun, 17 Nov 96 00:00:40 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7253; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:00:37 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Nov 1996 to 16 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 10 messages totalling 328 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BIG fabric sale 2. Masquerade book 3. Flame retardent fabrics 4. unmentionable substances 5. 1860's underpinnings (2) 6. H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Nov 1996 to 15 Nov 1996 7. Use of Urine 8. Clothing on fire (was: flame retardency) 9. Scandinavian Costume ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 23:45:00 -0600 From: mschulte@POST.ITS.MCW.EDU Subject: BIG fabric sale For those in the vicinity of Milwaukee on the weekend of 23(8am-5pm) and 24(10am-3pm) November, you may want to bring extra cash. It is the weekend of JHCollectibles warehouse sale. For those who have never been: The have ready to wear fine suit-type clothes, too. My favourite part is the fabric, thread, and buttons. This time, the advertisement mentions wool gabardine and silk at $5/yd. Who knows. This time of the year, there are usually a lot of wools and wool blends(mostly fine suit wools, occassionally coating material) and often some wonderful cotten velveteens. Most fabrics are 52-60 inches wide. I have found Irish linen at $8/yd on occassion. There are of course polyesters...but not many, interfacing at $1.75/yd, large spools of thread, zippers, and buttons (usu 10-15 for $1). Visit a department store and look for the JHC line of clothing to get an idea of the types of fabric that *could* be available. There is always a line to get in on Saturday morning. (A lot of buses come from Illinois and Indiana.) A final warning, they will accept cheques, but no credit cards. I am not a JHC employee, but a warehouse fabric sale addict. Marie Directions: Best route to Milwaukee. I-94 to the Airport. Take Gen. Mitchell Field Airpost exit(east). Leave expressway at Howell Ave. exit. Turn left(north). Follow Howell ave north approx 3-4 blocks, look for Edgerton Ave sign(It's small.). Turn left(west). Travel two blocks west to 2nd(?)St. Turn right(north). The warehouse is two blocks north of Edgerton and 2nd(?). You'll see all the cars, before that though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 01:38:22 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: Masquerade book Can anyone help me find the title and author of a book about putting on a masquerade at a science fiction convention? And if there is anyone from the Middle West who sells garb or accessories and is interested in selling at either a 15th Century historical group's convention or the aforementioned science fiction convention, please let me know ASAP(off the list, of course). Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 03:52:06 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Flame retardent fabrics Margaret Weller here-- I feel that I owe an apology here. While I did say that children's synthetic sleepers do not burn, I did not emphasize that it takes a relative lot of provocation to make them` melt, and that they melt into a sort of glaze that will cool much faster. And, the glaze is a very narrow band at the edge of the fabric. I don't know if it evaporates or what, but it is different enough that I suppose it might not even stick. In my burn testing experience, children's sleepers are the ONLY synthetics that are safe around flame. So, my apologies to Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf and her company, who really *are* making fire retardant synthetic clothing. And many thanks for clarifying that it is not a finish but intrinsic in the fabric. Now, if her company can make fire retardant fabrics for children, why are so many *adult* synthetics like napalm? Thanks for the correction. On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf wrote: > While I don't want to get too far off topic of costuming, I find a need > to clarify the positions being expressed regarding fabrics TYPICALLY AND > LEGALLY being used for children's sleepwear in the US. > > We do thousands of tests each year to ascertain the safety levels of the > fabrications used in sleepwear. The US Consumer Product Safety > Commission has established safety levels that can ONLY be met by using > polyester, certain nylons and chemically treated fabrics. > > My company chooses to stay away from chemical treatments for many of the > reasons people have mentioned in their postings - illness and allergic > reactions topping the list. > > If you ever see an actual burn test, you will never doubt the safety of > TYPICAL sleepwear polyester again. (I'm not lobbying for anything but > it's safety). It must self extinguish completely in order to pass the > test. It does not ignite and it does not leave huge globs of molten residue. > > > If someone wants me to send them further information regarding the tests, > please e-mail me privately and I will respond. > > Before the law regarding flammability standards for children's sleepwear > were passed, around 55 children a year died in burn related accidents > while wearing pre-standard sleepwear. Since the enactment of the law, > that number has been reduced to fewer than 5/year. The first fabrics > used were treated with the chemical TRIS, which was subsequently found to > be carcinogenic. Subsequent to that finding, most standard compliant > sleepwear came to be made of polyester. (We typically use polyester > jerseys, interlocks, flannels, satin and fleeces along with nylon > tricot.) THESE FABARICATIONS HAVE NO FR FINISHES ON THEM - THE FABRICS > ARE INHERENTLY FLAME RESISTENT. > > Another interesting fact is that you can use FR thread, FR fabric, FR > beading, FR ribbon and when you sew them all together, the article will > not pass the FR test. > > I received a letter from a consumer last year thanking me for my > company's compliance ethics. Her child backed into a kerosene heater and > the cloth momentarily ignited. She reported that the fabric hole was > less than the size of a US quarter coin and the burn her child sustaned > was less than a US dime. I can tell you from many years of first hand > experience that the child would either be dead or disfigured had the > garment been cotton. > > Most of the long underwear-type cotton sleepwear you find in the stores > is either illegally being sold as sleepwear, or it is treated with the > chemicals we have been discussing.The chemically treated fabrics are not > even available in this country. Just last week three mills told me they > wouldn't touch the stuff for health and liability reasons. > > The most dangerous part of any fabric fire is the chimney effect you get > with loose fitting garments. When the fire is oxygenated from both > sides, it burns longer and hotter than if the garment is tight fitting. > > Sorry to go on and on, but this topic is near and dear to my heart. I > have been working with the American Apparel Manufacturers Association to > lobby the CPSC to keep the law in tact. They have recently voted to > relax the standard and allow for certain garments to be exempt from the > standard. Their position is so murky that retailers and manufacturers > have many questions and doubts, so it is bound to be confusing for > consumers. "Parent's" magazine even misreported the new policy in their > November issue. > > Thanx for listening. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:49:59 CST From: "Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097" Subject: Re: unmentionable substances The shocking truth is really not that shocking if one really understands the uses of urine that are even there today. Surprisingly to many you will find that that in the Drug industry today urine of various animals is used quite heavily. One popular usage is in the creation of estrogen medications which are often dirived from urine of pregnant mares. Other intresting facts or tales on urine is several references on Gandi which claimed that he drank it fresh on daily basis. As someone priorly mentioned this is one of the most sterile of the body solutions. If an individual does not have a bladder infection where blood can get into the urine that is. Not only is it basicly sterile but it is also acidic which adds to its actual usefullness. A point to keep in mind is thayt with the acidity of urine very few if any microorganism can survive for any lenght of time. Going back in history the knowledge of creation of acids was extremly limited. The supply of urine from from both human and animal sources however was very abundant. Therefore as man realized the abilities of this acid to work on differnet substance it became more widely used in tanning, as even etching. Besides the acidic effects of urine there is also the amonia content which has already been described for it bleaching abilities. Home this helps people get a less unmentionable attitude on this wonderfull natural gift from nature. dennis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:32:41 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: 1860's underpinnings >>Two questions. First, am I correct in assuming that the full set >>of underwear would include: >> >>drawers & chemise (under corset) > >>corset >>corset-cover > This is in reply to the letter saying that they didn't believe that the corset cover was necessary It was my understanding that the corset cover protected the dress from the boning in the corset - so it would be important to wear it as well. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:23:03 -0500 From: barbara jeanette Mason Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Nov 1996 to 15 Nov 1996 When I was doing lots of indigo dying years ago, I used my children's urine. It seemed some how purer. And now they love to tell the stories about my making them pee in a tub so I could dye. But actually urea now comes in sanitized pellets. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:16:40 -0500 From: Kathy Wells Subject: Use of Urine -- [ From: Kathy Wells * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I have been reading this list and all of the uses of urine in the past. However no one has mentioned that it was used to scour the wool. I tried this with some raw wool. It worked OK with common wool, however it was noted that full blooded merino would require fuller's earth to absorb the grease. Now I was on a search for fuller's earth I finally was able to order some. I don't think that I had enough as my merino never has gotten as clean as I would like to spin. Does anyone have any idea's that I might try that would be historically correct for early 19th Century? Meanwhile I will be scouring wool at home and not in the field. Kath ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:32:47 EST From: LuAnn Mason Subject: Re: 1860's underpinnings On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:32:41 -0500 Sharon and/or Mikie writes: >>>Two questions. First, am I correct in assuming that the full set >>>of underwear would include: >>> >>>drawers & chemise (under corset) >> > >>>corset > >>>corset-cover >> >This is in reply to the letter saying that they didn't believe that >the >corset cover was necessary >It was my understanding that the corset cover protected the dress from >the >boning in the corset - so it would be important to wear it as well. I may not have stated this very well originally. :( (This is NOTHING new!) The original poster asked for a complete list of 1860's underpinnings. I guess it depends on how you define "complete". "Complete" could well include a corset cover and 12 petticoats for *some* women, but not *most* women. While I'm sure the corset cover serves its purpose well, the fact remains that corset covers were NOT commonly worn in the time period. My own "standard", if you will,, is that If it wasn't commonly done in the time period, then, I'm not going to do it, and I'm not going to recommend anyone else does, either. :) Hope this clears up my meaning.... Regards-- LuAnn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:11:17 -0700 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: Clothing on fire (was: flame retardency) All this discussion of flame retardency makes me nervous. Prevention is good, but everyone should remember that if whatever you're wearing DOES catch fire, DO NOT try to remove it (as someone mentioned in the case of an apron earlier). Remember, if your clothing catches fire, you must STOP, DROP, and ROLL. STOP in your tracks (don't run, it fans the flames), DROP to the ground immediately, and ROLL on the ground to extinguish the flames. This is what the fire department trains the children to do. Fire is too dangerous to use half-measures. After the fire is out, avoid pricking or bursting blisters, and do not breathe or cough over the burned area. Quickly remove anything constricting (shoes, rings, bracelets) from the burned part, because later it will swell and make it difficult to remove them. Remove clothing that has been soaked in hot fat or burning water immediately (with scissors, if possible). Do not remove dry, burned clothing or any clothing that is stuck to the burn. DO NOT dress the burn with anything fluffy such as cotton, and DO NOT apply lotions or ointments to it. Nothing but cold water should be put on the burn. Don't take my word for this. Do your own research; phone the local fire department safety office & listen to what they have to say. Then practice--it will increase your confidence & response time in a real emergency. I'm not an expert; I just try to know what I need to in order to be more safe. Sorry if I've been preaching, but I feel strongly about this. --Spotty the Fire Dog (Angela Gottfred) gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 22:00:00 CST From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Scandinavian Costume The best book that I can recommend at present is "Norwegian Bunads" (also avail as Norske Bunader)...Try your library or ILL. Good Luck! O, and thanks, y'all, for info on the Sealed Knot. Tom @ Mickie's ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Nov 1996 to 16 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 18 11:29:17 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07223 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:01:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199611180501.AA07223@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1718; Mon, 18 Nov 96 00:00:56 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2264; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:00:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Nov 1996 to 17 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 7 messages totalling 245 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. unmentionable substances 2. Flame retardent fabrics 3. Rossetti book 4. Italian Tailor's Book 5. "To extinguish fire in Female Dresses" 6. corset covers and a book 7. corset covers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:34:53 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: unmentionable substances Right On, Dennis! We have to remember that this is the first time in history that humans (particularly North American and some European) have this antiseptic attitude towards bodily functions and substances. Certainly, we are healthier (supposedly) than our forbears, but we also lose out on many rich experiences. I'm not saying that I would like to live with open sewers or infrequent bathing any more than the next girl, but when something is free and multi-purpose, don't turn your nose up at it! Well, okay, turn your nose up at it, but don't write it off! The more our society grows in awareness of the hazards of wasteful thinking, the more uses we will come up with for previously "useless" things. Personally, I'm wondering what we can use fingernail clippings for. Imagine if we all kept them and sent them to the recycling plant!? Oh, well, so that's a little strange now, but what about 25, 50, or 100 years from now? I used to think that garbage was dirty! I've learned, though, that the organic matter is what made garbage yukky, and now I put it in a bin, stir it around, mix some other good stuff with it (flyers are good), and out comes beautiful, warm, woody compost! I foresee a day when our sensibilities are less offended by nature! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:26:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Flame retardent fabrics On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Conrad Hodson wrote: > Margaret Weller here-- > I feel that I owe an apology here. While I did say that children's > synthetic sleepers do not burn, I did not emphasize that it takes a > relative lot of provocation to make them` melt, and that they melt into a > sort of glaze that will cool much faster. And, the glaze is a very narrow > band at the edge of the fabric. I don't know if it evaporates or what, > but it is different enough that I suppose it might not even stick. In my > burn testing experience, > children's sleepers are the ONLY synthetics that are safe around flame. > So, my apologies to Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf and her company, who really > *are* making fire retardant synthetic clothing. And many thanks for > clarifying that it is not a finish but intrinsic in the fabric. Now, if My understanding of the nature of this sort of flame retardance is that it consists of substances added into the polyester or nylon solutions before they are extruded into fibers. So, yes, it would be intrinsic to certain doubtless patented chemical formulae, but no, it is not intrinsic to the basic family of fibers that nylon and polyester belong to, which are composed of organic compounds derived from petroleum by products. So the ONLY polyesters and nylons that are fire retardant are those that specifically state this on the label or bolt. I had heard stories about electrical workers being badly burned when wearing polyester blend clothing, but a companion, wearing natural fibers survived much better. This was because the cloth burned and fell away from the skin. The polyester in the blended stuff melted onto the skin, causing serious harm. If you work near fire, I wouldn't recommend wearing anything but natural fibers. Hard to find children's flame retardant stuff that isn't in prints utterly inappropriate for serious reenactors :*) Also, one of the many wonderful characteristics of wool is that it is somewhat self extinguishing. It also completes a chemical reaction when wet that makes it give off heat. When my cousin did an "Outward Bound" trip in the mountains, they insisted he have wool socks, not cotton, and not synthetic. Cuts down on the frostbite problems dramatically, evidently. I got this out of textile chemistry books and textile science classes. Marjory Joseph's _Introductory Textile Science_ is a good basic one, for those who are curious. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:26:57 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: Rossetti book Got my binder back, (Thanks Rose) Rosetti, Giovanventura, fl. 1530-1548. The Plictho; instructions in the art of the dyers which teaches the dyeing of woolen cloths, linens, cottons, and silk by the great art as well as by the common. Translation of the 1st ed. of 1548, by Sidney M. Edelstein and Hector C. Borghetty. Cambridge, M.I.T. Press [1969]. Sorry, but the title page (with the ISBN#) is missing. I can go do a Melvyl search anyone really needs it. Last I checked, this book was out of print but you may track it down through a used book merchant. There are problems, with using the translated recipes as I stated before. If you are serious about doing some of the Rossetti recipes, please contact me off line. Another great find: DISSERTATION Regazzi, Marilyn Elizabeth. Burial-induced color change of dyed and mordanted cotton and wool fabrics. [Davis, Calif.] 1986. A disseration service should be able to get this for you.(DUI is what I use) If you live in Ca, you can go to a UC library and have it printed off microfiche for .15 a page. UC Davis has a great collection of other later period dye books 1650 to 1800, please contact me off line and I 'll give you a list of items that are available through the UC system. Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 17:19:50 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Italian Tailor's Book Hello everyone! It's me, Rose. While perusing my copy of Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion, I came across a reference to a book of designs by a Milanese tailor, circa 1580's. It is supposed to be in the bibliotheca Querini-Stampalia in Venice. Has anyone heard of this? Has anyone ever seen it? Does anyone have a copy....or any other info about it? PLEASE let me know if the answers to any of the above questions is YES!!! Also, does anyone have a complete list of Janet Arnold's works? Could you please post it to me or the list? THANK YOU!! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:18:34 -0500 From: vandy simpson/darrell markewitz Subject: "To extinguish fire in Female Dresses" (this is the *Historic* costume list after all!) So, from The Cook and Housewife's Manual by Mistress Meg Dods (10th edition 1856) ..."So many fatal accidents arise from light dresses catching fire, that every MANUAL intended for women should contain the following necessary cautions: - 1.Let it be early and diligently impressed upon the mind of every girl, that flame uniformly tends upwards; that every article of her dress will consume much more rapidly if held upright, than if laid along the floor; and that her life may depend on her presence of mind, should her clothes unhappily catch fire. 2. Give instant alarm by pulling the bell, (which is generally near the fireplace,) by screaming or any other means; but if possible, avoid opening the door; for both the movement of the figure, and the current of air admitted, will increase the rapidity of the flames. 3. The alarm may be given while the female is at the same instant sitting down by the rug, attempting to tear off the articles of dress which are on fire, and rolling herself on a sofa or in the rug or carpet to smother the flame. If the latter is nailed down, she may easily when on the floor, tear it up. She may also catch at any piece of baize, or any vessel of water within reach; and if very active, may even turn her clothes over her head and thus arrest the progress of the flames. 4. The most ready and effectual assistance a spectator in general can give, will be to turn the clothes of the sufferer over her head, and hold them firm thus, till wrappers, cold water, &c., are procured. 5. A man may quickly strip off his coat and wrap it around the female. 6. Let the sufferer, even if she fail to pull away the burning articles, or to extinguish the fire by rolling on the floor, and wrapping herself on the hearthrug, (which is generally always ready) still protect her bosom and face, by lowering her face and crossing her hands and arms over her face and breast." Not sure of the efficacy, and don't want to test it, but it's a lovely item for a household manual! (and thanks to everyone for all their comments on fire-retardants.I passed them along, and my friend managed to deal with the problem.We did come across one method I'd like more details on, if anyone knows them, a solution of borax and boric acid. What proportions? has anyone tried this?) Vandy Simpson, Wareham, Ontario ****************************************************************************** vsimpson@headwaters.com = Vandy Simpson, or Darrell Markewitz postings for the Wareham Forge can be sent to: wareham.forge@headwaters.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:37:30 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: corset covers and a book Interesting discussion about underwear: I remember my grandmother telling me what women wore when she was little--she was born in 1869--and wondering what a corset cover was. It was definitely on the list. Another garment no one seems to have mentioned was split drawers, the obvious thing to wear when you had a long corset on. I have a couple of pairs that were in the attic. On another note, I just ran across a beautiful book at Borders which might be of interest: "Daily Life in Holland in the Year 1566", by Rien Poortvliet. The illustrations are beautiful and in great detail. Expensive, but definitely worth a look especially re costume of that date. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:11:16 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: corset covers Tess Parrish wrote: > >I remember my grandmother telling me what women wore when she was little--she >was born in 1869--and wondering what a corset cover was. It was definitely on >the list. The first example of a corset cover I've noted so far in my collection of 1858-1865 ladies' magazines (Peterson's & Godey's) was in 1865. By the time your grandmother was old enough to know or care about such garments, they were probably far more common than they were in the 1861-65 era. Alexa, LuAnn & I are in obvious agreement on that topic too. :-) >Another garment no one seems to have mentioned was split drawers, the obvious >thing to wear when you had a long corset on. I guess we all assumed the drawers listed were split crotch... A dangerous thing to do (to assume makes an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me') I can't imagine wearing a corset and not wearing split crotch drawers myself. Glenna Jo Christen (Back at home and posting from my own computer again. :-)) gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Nov 1996 to 17 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Nov 19 10:50:32 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA15277 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:02:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199611190502.AA15277@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4156; Tue, 19 Nov 96 00:02:01 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6780; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:02:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Nov 1996 to 18 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 447 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. unmentionable substances (3) 2. How I got into costuming 3. 4. Dyeing leather 5. Barbie Garb (7) 6. Flame retardent fabrics 7. Various ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:58:57 +0000 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: unmentionable substances On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 wrote: > Besides the acidic effects of urine there is also the amonia content which > has already been described for it bleaching abilities. Now I'm really confused. Ammonia dissolved in water is a base. Can a thing be both acidic and basic at once? Don't they react to form a salt and water? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:31:58 +0000 From: Simon Fairbourn Subject: Re: How I got into costuming In article , aleed writes >It's interesting to hear people's stories. I didn't realize the SCA >played such a large role in getting people into costuming. > Not just the SCA. I have seen a good number from Far Isles members too. > >when it comes right down to it, the real reason I got into costuming is >a complete, utter, hopeless and unrequited love of fabric. > I can relate to that too, but combine it with the science of cutting and the way clothes interact with the person inside and I'm hooked. This has to be a cue for my version of the story. When I was a young lad, my mother used to make most of her own clothes. She had (and indeed still primarily uses) an old hand turned machine. >From the age of 3 I would help her by turning the handle very carefully when she needed both her hands available. This was about all the useful experience I got as a kid, though I did know how to work a machine. The all-boys schools in London's East End did not unsurprisingly have a needlework component in the curriculum. There was nothing in what I saw around to inspire me. I still hate 60s and 70s clothing for its ugliness (sorry Teddy). But, then came the 80s. Girls started looking really nice again. Laura Ashley was Queen of the High Street and there were calls back to styles of the last century. This was particularly true in concert wear. (I should mention that I'm a bit of a musician too.) By this time I was definitely hooked on clothing but not actively making it. Lean times came. My partner at the time and I were both trying to get through university on a grant. She changed size quite dramatically and found none of her clothes fitted. To economise, she decided to try to make something for herself. She failed. I was surprised. (It had seemed so simple when Mum did it.) She told me to try if it was so simple then! I did. She came back with a harder pattern. Did that. Another even harder pattern. Did that. And so on until I had actually made myself a three piece suit. Once that battle was won I decided to try some of the costumes I had liked the look of in James Laver's history of costume. I discovered that this was dressmaking on a different scale. The cut and fit were worlds apart from what I had known. I decided I had to break the project down, so I started with the corset. Everything else seemed to relate to it. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it to look right. I read widely trying to see where I had gone wrong. I experimented with varieties of cut and boning. I learned a lot but ultimately failed. I never did finish the project. In retrospect it was no surprise. My wife was a big girl all over, yet I have a considerably bigger bust. There is only so much you can do... Life took a different path for a while. My enthusiasm was sparked off again by joining the Far Isles mediaeval society. I gradually got back into costuming thanks to the encouragement of the likes of Teddy. I am also applying some of my experience of C19 corsets to C16 bodies. The latest version (Mark 4) is proving popular with some of the ladies. The problem now is finding time in which to fit everything. At the end of the day, it's all been good fun, and that's what matters. -- Simon Fairbourn (Vaurien (Chiefy)) -- Oooh that's pretty... Can it try it on?.. It looks tight... OK, I agree not to back out of this... What's it boned with?.. Wood!?.. OK, I promised... Hey, this is really comfortable... Look down?.. Wow!.. Make ME one, Chiefy, pleeeeease. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 03:57:39 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: unmentionable substances On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Dorothy Stein wrote: > On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 wrote: > > > Besides the acidic effects of urine there is also the amonia content which > > has already been described for it bleaching abilities. > Now I'm really confused. Ammonia dissolved in water is a base. Can a > thing be both acidic and basic at once? Don't they react to form a salt > and water? > Yes indeed--if they were both present at the same time. Urine as produced by people is nearly neutral, tending toward weak acidity. A small amount of uric acid is usually present. But this changes as the urine is exposed to air and bacterial action over time. Urea (the main form of nitrogenous waste in mammals) breaks down, yielding ammonia. When this happens, any remaining acids would be quickly neutralized, and the urine would become basic. Also pungent; ammonia is a considerable part of the smell of stale urine. Folk industries often have traditional aspects of their recipes that allow for important chemical reactions to take place--such as specifying fresh or aged urine. Of course, they can also alter the acidity directly, if their procedure includes vinegar, wood ashes, lime, etc. Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:28:00 CST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: unmentionable substances Meg/Francesca writes: > Personally, I'm wondering what we can use fingernail clippings for. Imagine if we all >kept them and sent them to the recycling plant!? How about boiling them for glue or gelatin, as I understand they do with cow hooves? If it works, it could open up a whole new market aimed at vegans! (I actually had a friend who for at least 10 years saved all his toe and fingernail clippings and planned to do just that, but I think he finally just threw them away--I think he mostly talked about it just to gross people out! And it worked!) - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:12:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Thank you all for your interesting comments on the use of urine for dyeing and bleaching. Now we've got onto the chemical properties, can we get back to historic clothing, please. (I accept that I'm as guilty as anyone!) If we've run out of topics for discussion here are two to keep us going, to which I'd like answers: 1) Has anyone got evidence of the use or importation of cotton in England prior to 1500? (I already have the references to its import through Bristol and the use of cotton for candle wicks). 2) Can anyone refer me to pictures, woodcuts, references etc. of ladies in their underwear in the years 1560 to 1640 in England, especially in their stays? Sally Ann The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:18:44 -0600 From: Wendy Robertson & Tim Weitzel Subject: Dyeing leather In addition to the Plichto (which is considerably later than the 8th century), you might want to look at the Codex lucensis 490 and at Mappae clavicula, two very related texts which date back to about the 8th century. I believe that the Codex lucensis is northern Italian of about 9th century date, and the Mappae clavicula is northern European from 12th century or so (I'm sorry I'm being so vague -- the texts are not with me at the moment). I have not tried any of the dye recipes, but I believe they both discuss dyeing leather. (Codex lucensis also talks about cloth; Mappae clavicula doesn't have much on cloth but it has a lot of other interesting things, such as 2 soap recipes) An English translation of Codex lucensis can be found in: A classical technology by John M Burnam. Boston, RG Badger, 1920. An English translation of Mappae clavicula can be found in: Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, n.s. v.64, pt.4 (1974) > Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:56:51 -0700 > From: "Morgan E. Smith" > Subject: Re: Dyes > > I'll second that request. I'm trying to make a pair of shoes for a costume > (Irishwoman's, c.8th cent.) and would like the leather to match the > overall colour scheme. Any info would be appreciated > Morgan I hope this helps. If you do try any of the recipes, please let us know how they work. Wendy Robertson wcrobert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:19:14 +0000 From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Subject: Barbie Garb Yes, really! My 7 year old wants garb for her Barbie, so she can take her to events. My problem is how to lace up the tunics - even the smallest eyelets seem AWFULLY big for a Barbie - I thought about making a placket, closing it with velcro and doing a cross-stitch row down the back, so it would LOOK laced - or, about putting on drops of Fray-chek, and then using a large needle to poke holes in, and then lacing her up by using a needle. Well, any ideas? Thanks! Eowen Annesdohtor mka Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com "Nobody told me that living happily ever after would be such hard work ..." S. White O- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:06:15 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: Flame retardent fabrics According to Chief Allan Blackwelder of the Charlotte, NC Fire Department, at a talk he gave about Fire Safety at Historic Sites, wool and linen clothing is much better than cotton when working around the fireplace or other open fires. Also he recommended a solution of a half a cup of Boric Acid powder dissolved in about two gallons of water. Your clothes should be periodically rinsed in this solution to greatly improve their flame retardancy. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:45:47 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Various Conrad Hodson wrote: > > > I was told by a Chinese woman that it was traditional in her village for > > women to wash their faces with baby urine to improve their complexions! > > And in the Yemen, women traditionally use camels' urine for a hair rinse, > to control lice. If the breeze is right, my informant said, you can smell > the woman almost as far as you can see her.... > > Conrad Hodson > > who thinks that an awful lot of "tradition" consists of Really Bad > Ideas... I did not experience any such thing when I was there. It may be that some of the more remote tribal people would do that - but I travelled a great deal of the country and found the people to be very clean. It was certainly easier on the nose in Yemen than in India. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:57:13 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Barbie Garb Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote: > > Yes, really! My 7 year old wants garb for her Barbie, so she can > take her to events. My problem is how to lace up the tunics - even > the smallest eyelets seem AWFULLY big for a Barbie - I thought about > making a placket, closing it with velcro and doing a cross-stitch row > down the back, so it would LOOK laced - or, about putting on drops of > Fray-chek, and then using a large needle to poke holes in, and then > lacing her up by using a needle. > > Well, any ideas? > > Thanks! > > Eowen Annesdohtor > mka > Beth Bardot > bardot@cris.com > > "Nobody told me that living happily ever after would be such hard work ..." > S. White > > O- When I was in Yemen I saw a Barbie doll that was covered from head to toe in a black veil. I was fascinated! I know it was a Barbie (blond no less) because the child was playing with it and the veil kept falling off (revealing a naked Barbie). That doesn't help you, but it is interesting to see how other cultures have adopted Barbie. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:08:59 -0600 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: Barbie Garb I think you're going to have to fake the lacing, but I wouldn't use velcro. When I was a girl (hey it wasn't _that_ long ago), Barbie clothes were fastened with little snaps. You can still buy sew-on snaps exactly like the ones on Barbie's clothes. Are you going to make armor for her, too? How about Ken? Nancee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:17:40 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Barbie Garb You could also sew on the eyes from hooks and eyes to use as "holes" for the lacing. I fyou use end-singed narrow ribbon for the laces, your daughter should be able to lace up the dress without needing a needle. Just a thought. Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:24:33 +0000 From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Subject: Re: Barbie Garb > I think you're going to have to fake the lacing, but I wouldn't use velcro. > When I was a girl (hey it wasn't _that_ long ago), Barbie clothes were > fastened with little snaps. You can still buy sew-on snaps exactly like the > ones on Barbie's clothes. > > Are you going to make armor for her, too? How about Ken? > > Nancee > > Ken will undoubtedly get armor (probably made out of leather scraps), but I think Daddy will do GI Joe's, for our almost-5 boy, first. Little snaps is a much better idea - I think the closure will be neater that way, as velcro tends to gap. Thanks! Eowen mka Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com "Nobody told me that living happily ever after would be such hard work ..." S. White O- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:26:30 -0800 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: Barbie Garb I would second the vote for the round eyes solution. (I have made Barbie clothes using the snaps and they can be hard for little hands to snap.) Has anyone seen the CD-ROM for girls that allows them to design Barbie clothes and then the patterns can be printed out? This thread reminds me that my daughter will be bringing to Estrella for part of her home work. (We have to take pictures of the doll during our "vacation" and I flippantly said "So I suppose I'll have to make garb for it - and my kids answered with a resounding "Yes!".) Carol ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby ladybug@falkor.neverending.webnexus.com http://falkor.neverending.webnexus.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:33:03 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Barbie Garb >This thread reminds me that my daughter will be bringing to Estrella for >part of her home work. (We have to take pictures of the doll during our >"vacation" and I flippantly said "So I suppose I'll have to make garb for >it - and my kids answered with a resounding "Yes!".) > I would take this as a signal that it's time to teach her how to make her doll some clothes. A basic T-tunic can be cut out, and on a client as physically inactive as Barbie, doesn't even need to be seamed up the sides -- just slip it over her head and tie on a belt. Just don't do what my mom did --when I was 4, she showed me how to make a high fashion (1961) sheath dress out of a child's sock. She neglected to stress to me that only socks without partners should be used, and several days later, Barbie had one heck of a wardrobe -- and I was out of socks. And then there was my late friend Mark Jones, Art Deco couterier extrodinare. For his fifth birthday, he got a woodburning set and a GI Joe. He promptly used the woodburning tool to melt and remodel Joe's face, pulled some ostrich plumes fromn his mom's feather duster, and turned Joe into -- Ginger Rogers! At that point, his parents quietly gave up hope of Mark's butch future, and his mother started teaching him how to sew. So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for Barbie and her friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic body modifications in order to corset her? Margo Anderson One Tough Costumer ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Nov 1996 to 18 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Nov 20 13:08:49 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24816 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:02:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199611200502.AA24816@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6034; Wed, 20 Nov 96 00:01:00 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2354; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:00:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Nov 1996 to 19 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 19 messages totalling 703 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Need quick Dickens' dress.... 2. Flame retardant fabrics 3. Barbie Garb (2) 4. Mail glitch 5. Cotton et al (2) 6. Dido & Aeneas 7. New Costume Designs 8. Dolls (5) 9. Re[2]: Dolls 10. Musty smells 11. washing clothes in Middle Ages 12. knitting history 13. When is Dickens? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:26:52 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Need quick Dickens' dress.... Please help me. I have been asked to make a "dicken's" dress for a street faire, in two weeks. Can anyone suggest a book with a pattern, or loan me a pattern. (I promise to take extreamly good care of it.) I have very little money to do this with. It doesn't need to exactly accurate, just a-look-a like will do. I also need suggestions on bonnets of the period. BTW I am accomplished at machine sewing, so can do most anything, but just don't have the time to make a pattern from scratch. Please e-mail me off the list. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:44:11 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Flame retardant fabrics Really appreciated Margaret Weller s detailed posting on burn testing various fibers it duplicated my own findings exactly from over a period of several years in order to determine the best fabrics for various uses, including children s sleepwear! Imagine my shock and amazement when I found out how easily the fabrics sold as "safe" for children s sleepwear were to melt! At much lower temperatures than it took to catch fire to any cotton I have ever tested! Anybody ever try to IRON these fabrics, just for fun? Ha-ha!! Dear Leigh Ann: It is fortuitous that I read your posting on this subject. It was about a topic that has long bothered me: polyester fabrics used in children s sleepwear. From your wording I gathered that you do not work for the US CPSC, but rather, own a company that produces children s sleepwear? True? I realized with surprise your arguments to be highly in favor of the current standard. I do not want to get into an argument, but I have to present my side of the story, and if you care to comment I will certainly be interested in what you have to say in turn. Here goes I have hated these fabrics since I was a teenager when they first appeared. Who wears this stuff, really? My children have subsequently hated and REFUSED to wear them, too. I spent much time, money, and effort when my oldest daughter (now age 11) was little, making "cute" little nightgowns out of approved fabrics for children s sleepwear only to have her complain (as I had when a child) that they were hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and totally gross to wear because they stick to everything and collect lint. After three or four bouts thru the dryer (on medium low heat) they get a permanent case of static electricity which adds to their grossness. Even with fabric softener they still feel as insubstantial as tissue paper, and cling like spiderweb. The trade-off for "flame resistance" is weak: None of the fabrics you mentioned as being approved for use in children s sleepwear is a healthy fabric to wear, in my humble opinion, because none of them BREATHE and so the body s natural ability to keep itself warm and cool itself is totally impaired. This leads to increased susceptibility to colds and other illnesses, not to mention the sweaty discomfort or chills the poor children suffer! AS to their supposed superiority over natural fibers such as wool and cotton knit, did you see my posting on Chief Blackwelder s talk on Fire Safety at Historic Sites? As a firefighter, he has had the misfortune to be a witness to many, many injuries. After his speech, there was a buffet meal, and I had the opportunity to ask him personally how he felt about these standards for children s sleepwear & I told him of my own tests with these fabrics. I asked him ---had he seen a real difference in their ability to protect children? He grinned and shook his head. "Young lady, is this a trick question?" he asked me, with a queer look on his face. "There is nothing nastier than a mass of melted polyester nightgown all over a child s chest. All I can say is the only reason for the government regulations on industry s using polyester and nylon over cotton is that it s cheap. And more polyester than cotton is produced in this country. It s all economics, and the real winners are the industry. If there is a bad burn in any case, the child will suffer. But it is a real tragedy to see them with their sleepwear permanently molded to their body." I was aghast, to say the least. I felt at that point that my aversion to the stuff was totally justified, and since then haven t felt a shred of guilt for not making my children wear it. Quite the contrary. "THESE FABRICATIONS HAVE NO FR FINISHES ON THEM - THE FABRICS ARE INHERENTLY FLAME RESISTENT." To say that these fabrics, untreated, are "naturally" non-flammable is laughable. Of course they re non-flammable. They don t have the chance to burn: They Melt. At much lower temperatures than even cotton catches fire. I will go on to say that next to these gross chemically-produced fabrics, good old-fashioned cotton flannelette is a wick that fairly explodes into flame. It has too much dust, is too highly napped to be a safe fabric. I also say that anybody who lets a child run around in a cotton chimney (those long, ruffled nightgowns) is asking for trouble. But as for my children, their skin-fitted, cotton knit "long johns" are the sleepwear of choice: warm in winter (sometimes they wear two sets at a time for double the warmth imagine doing that with two sets of that Saran-Wrap polyester stuff sweat city and cold toes to boot!) and in summer, they wear either cotton tees, "short johns," or little lightweight cotton batiste nightgowns not loose and flowing but short and sleeveless. I say it is as much the *style* and *fit* as the *content* of the fabric that makes a common sense garment for children s sleepwear. "Before the law regarding flammability standards for children's sleepwear were passed, around 55 children a year died in burn related accidents while wearing pre-standard sleepwear. Since the enactment of the law, that number has been reduced to fewer than 5/year." How do you tell whether an injury or death is sleepwear-related or from some other reason? I have seen other claims that the polyester lobby won support for this regulation in the 70 s in a year that only 11 children died of sleepwear-related injuries and some of those were, in my opinion, more common sense related than anything else. One was a girl who was flipping pancakes at a gas stove with a long, loose, flapping nightgown sleeve waving around. The following year only 7 were claimed to have died. A difference of 4 such a victory for the Polyester Lobby! Where did you get the 55 number? "Another interesting fact is that you can use FR thread, FR fabric, FR beading, FR ribbon and when you sew them all together, the article will not pass the FR test." Again, we re talking common sense here. Lots of little ruffles, gathers, and fullness may be cute, but the more detail you put on a garment, the more total surface area you have, the more dust you create, and the end result is a more highly-napped, more chimney-like object, little wicks reaching out to the flame, so to speak. "Most of the long underwear-type cotton sleepwear you find in the stores is either illegally being sold as sleepwear, or it is treated with the chemicals we have been discussing. The chemically treated fabrics are not even available in this country. Just last week three mills told me they wouldn't touch the stuff for health and liability reasons." I assume you are claiming a competitor, namely Sara s Prints, is breaking the law. Either that, or when I think I am buying it from a California company I am really buying it from overseas? Interesting. Sara s is not the only 100% cotton sleepwear provider I know of, it s just the first name that came to mind. It is "flame-treated long-staple Egyptian cotton". As for long johns being sold as sleepwear, when I buy it from Hanna Andersson and others, it is always sold as "loungewear" or long underwear. It is not illegal if Moms Like Me CHOOSE to put our children in it and put them to bed. Just like it is not illegal if we CHOSE to put them in blue jeans, Nehru jackets, or pink party dresses before putting them to bed. We just think the cotton long johns are a bit more practical than the Nehru jackets. The company we buy them from has absolutely no control over what we do with their product, and your statement that they are "illegally" selling long johns as sleepwear just has absolutely no basis in fact!!! Even more interesting are the three mills you mention being concerned about health and liability over treated cotton sleepwear fabric. Does anybody else out there realize that almost all of the cotton sheets (and many other cotton items) we buy in this country are treated with Formaldehyde, supposedly to make them softer and wrinkle-resistant? Is anybody else concerned about this particular chemical? No, of course not. Nobody knows about it, apparently. And as long as nobody knows, the industry isn t worried about the health effects, or any liability. The only reason they bark about the "health effects" of flame-treated cotton, I maintain, is because it is a direct threat to the predominantly chemical-based textile industries in this country which have held a monopoly on the sleepwear market for almost two decades. And since I am speaking in the textile industry-rich South, I realize fully the economic implications of such a threat. I am a Traitor in the extreme, I know. How do any of you out there feel about putting your kids to bed in a plastic bag surrounded by formaldehyde-treated sheets and polyester blankets? A prime source of indoor air pollution is your toluene-scented mattress. Ever heard of "outgassing", the emission of toxic gases given off as synthetic materials, like carpets and plastics, age and chemically break down? You know, as I once wrote to a magazine on this very topic, people slept for centuries in (flammable) wooden houses, reached out and extinguished an (incendiary) candle or oil lamp, wearing (combustible) cotton, linen, and/or woolen garments, on (highly flammable) feather ticks, mattresses stuffed with straw, corn husks, or other equally flammable material, wrapped up in (ignitable) cotton quilts or woven woolen coverlets I guess we re just lucky all this modern technology came along and saved us or we d never have survived another 20,000 years . I m sorry I got so carried away; it s just that I have ranted on this topic for years now and I guess it s just not going to go away. I just hope and pray that none of us have to ever find out firsthand who s right. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:19:51 -0600 From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: Re: Barbie Garb On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > > So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for Barbie and her > friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic body modifications in > order to corset her? > > OK, I'll finally confess, my Barbie (circa 1960's) has a fairly decent 18th and 19th century wardrobe. I'll even confess that a few months ago while moving stuff in the attic, I took a few moments to change her from 18th century to 19th century clothes. I even gave a brief thought of making her some new things. (How about a white linen embroydered empire gown?) Libby Coffey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:04:43 -0600 From: ches Subject: Mail glitch My apologies for a public posting:( Today is the first day that I have been able to receive e-mail since Monday Nov 11 in the am. I understand that there were a few of you trying to send me mail. Well, it is permanently gone. Send them again, please..... ches ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:37:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Cotton et al Dear Sally Ann >1) Has anyone got evidence of the use or importation of cotton in England >prior to 1500? (I already have the references to its import through >Bristol and the use of cotton for candle wicks). Oh No, not this again! For newcomers to the list there was a long and vigourous discussion about this about a year ago (?), which I am sure is still in the archives. Anyway, as I recall, the vexed question of terminology reared its ugly head. The term 'cotton' can refer to 1) the textile(s) we are all familiar with; 2) the fibre; 3) raw cotton (in balls) and 4) a woolen textile which had been given a fluffy 'cotton' surface finish. (which raises the interesting question I don't think was discussed, about whether this textile gave the name to cotton or vice versa). It can be very difficult to ascertain which is being discussed in written sources, and to what purpose it was then put. It was argued strongly that to assume the term 'cotton' necessarily referred to the type of fabric(s) we know, was not necessarily correct. To add to the confusion, I have read (but cannot remember where) that it was very difficult to spin cotton fibre to make a strong cloth at this time, but it was used for mixed fibre clothes. Another use was for the stuffing of jacks, but whether as cloth or ball I don't know (jacks were padded jackets worn under armour or as partial replacement for armour). >2) Can anyone refer me to pictures, woodcuts, references etc. of ladies in >their underwear in the years 1560 to 1640 in England, especially in their >stays? I'll have a look - I'm sure you've checked Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion. What I have got are a couple of books on the Elizabethan Underworld which have some 'rude' pictures in them, but from memory I don't hold out much hope. They do have pictures of 'working women' perfectly dressed and coifed, but with their breasts exposed (well, more sort of offered on the platter of the ruff). I am wondering about the story everyone tells that prostitutes had their hair uncovered, all the pictures, even these 'working' ones, have their heads covered fashionably. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:29:59 -0500 From: Gina Balestracci Subject: Dido & Aeneas Henry Purcell's opera _Dido and Aeneas_ was on last night's Great Performances on PBS. The costumes were an interesting mish-mosh of 16th-19th century styles, with a few fantasy pieces thrown in (the Sorceress and her crones). The overall effect was, to my eyes, rather pre-Raphaelite, and quite lush (it didn't hurt that Dido and Belinda both had long, thick hair, intertwined with pearls). A few scenes, most notably "As she visits this lone fountain," had the look of a 16th-century Sienese painting (one of the women in that scene looked very much like the Cumaean Sibyl on Michelangelo's Sistine ceiling), and the witchcraft scene were yummy--great props! One of the Wayard Sisters' costumes looked quite like the olive green velvet Liberty dress that's on display at the V & A (a pretty good look at that dress was gotten in the witches' masque at the end of the opera). Not exactly historic costume per se, but certainly worth watching. Gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:45:40 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: New Costume Designs After many hours of research, my computer generated costume designs are finally premiering on my web page, today. At this point, only a few designs are on my page, but my fellow costumers get the first seek peek. More designs will be added as I complete them. The designs are for the play "The Importance of Being Earnest". Later, two more plays will be added: "Into the Woods" & "The Philadelphia Story". The sources for the line drawings will be added later. Go to my web site, Historic Costume Research- http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 and click on Theatre Threads. If anyone has questions or comments about this method of drawings, please email me direct. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:51:23 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Cotton et al 4) a woolen textile which had been given a fluffy 'cotton' surface > finish. (which raises the interesting question I don't think was discussed, > about whether this textile gave the name to cotton or vice versa). I believe that the term "cotton" comes either from India (one of their many languages) or Arabic. There was some mention of this on the net recently. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:58:37 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Barbie Garb > > > > So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for Barbie and her > > friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic body modifications in > > order to corset her? You know, I never thought about that. Barbie does have perfect body for 18th C. Corsets. Hmm...one more project on the pile... Drea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:41:15 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Dolls Margo Anderson wrote, > So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for Barbie > and her friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic body > modifications in order to corset her? Yes, I confess, I also dressed my Barbie in various creations. It was well before I got interested in historic clothing. I haven't dressed one in quite a few years; I liked the faces of the earlier Barbies better than the ones available today. When it comes to corseting, I much prefer the soft-bodied dolls with the porcelain heads. Some are made with porcelain shoulders & torsos all the way down into the bust. Dolls are available that would be correct for some time periods (mid 19thC forward), and other period dolls can be made from cloth or wood. There's a woodcut of a naked Native American girl carrying a European doll. It's from the 16th or 17th century, as I recall. Has anyone tried to reproduce this doll? Some friends have made cloth dolls for their children to play with at events. Has anyone on the list done this, too? How do you dress them? -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:01:57 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Dolls > > When it comes to corseting, I much prefer the soft-bodied dolls > with the porcelain heads. Some are made with porcelain shoulders & > torsos all the way down into the bust. Dolls are available that would > be correct for some time periods (mid 19thC forward), and other > period dolls can be made from cloth or wood. There's a woodcut of a > naked Native American girl carrying a European doll. It's from the > 16th or 17th century, as I recall. Has anyone tried to reproduce this > doll? I have, for a while now, been longing to make a doll dressed in perfectly quarter-scale elizabethan garb, including stockings, garters, chemise, etc. made out of the real stuff--silk velvet and satin and all that. (It's just the authenticity freak in me coming out--grab the stake and holy water and you'll be fine). I saw a picture of an Elizabethan "fashion doll" in a book, but it was a small doll with rather rough features. I came across a woman that makes "lady dolls", i.e., with adult proportions, faces and figures. She made me a doll with the "typically" Elizabethan features--pale, high forehead, small mouth, grey eyes, frizzy red hair, etc--that was 18" tall. It has a porcelain head, hands and feet, and a cloth body. I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? Thanks a lot, Drea > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:51:19 -0800 From: CBecht@LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU Subject: Re: Dolls Carol asked: Some friends have made cloth dolls for their children to play with at events. Has anyone on the list done this, too? How do you dress them? I have no children myself but most of my costuming has been for dolls and only in the last couple years have I attempted some for myself and other real people. The Barbie thread has been making me smile... we weren't allowed Barbies when I was a kid (I don't know if being an immigrant child of old world Europeans had anything to do with it... my mom just didn't let alot of pop culture stuff slip into the house) so anyways, we learned to sew adult looking cloth dolls. My first ones were Barbie and Ken sized; I now make them a bit larger. I still prefer to try out new patterns and eras and materials in doll-size first because I can afford just about any fabric to make the doll's dress and see how I like working with it. Most of my dolls are dressed in early to late Victorian clothes... okay, so I'm not a kid anymore so maybe my "yes" answer doesn't count. In my early twenties I sewed Civil War era flounced dresses for a neighbor child's Latina Barbie... those were fun. I taught a friend how to sew - from the basics of threading a needle - by making her a Victorian doll and giving her some simplified Princess-line Victorian patterns to begin with. She's onto all sorts of sewing projects now. So that's a long way around of answering a qualified yes. Although none of these dolls are currently owned by children (none in the family), they certainly could be... and hopefully one day will be. - Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:20:09 EST From: LuAnn Mason Subject: Re: Dolls On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:01:57 -0500 aleed writes: >> >> When it comes to corseting, I much prefer the soft-bodied dolls >> with the porcelain heads. Some are made with porcelain shoulders & >> torsos all the way down into the bust. Dolls are available that >would >> be correct for some time periods (mid 19thC forward), and other >> period dolls can be made from cloth or wood. There's a woodcut of a >> naked Native American girl carrying a European doll. It's from the >> 16th or 17th century, as I recall. Has anyone tried to reproduce >this >> doll? > >I have, for a while now, been longing to make a doll dressed in >perfectly >quarter-scale elizabethan garb, including stockings, garters, chemise, >etc. made out of the real stuff--silk velvet and satin and all that. >(It's >just the authenticity freak in me coming out--grab the stake and holy >water and you'll be fine). I saw a picture of an Elizabethan "fashion >doll" in a book, but it was a small doll with rather rough features. This is pretty typical... >I came across a woman that makes "lady dolls", i.e., with adult >proportions, faces and figures. She made me a doll with the >"typically" >Elizabethan features--pale, high forehead, small mouth, grey eyes, >frizzy >red hair, etc--that was 18" tall. It has a porcelain head, hands and >feet, and a cloth body. > >I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect >for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain >dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that >would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? > I don't have any sources off hand, but from memory (and studying antique dolls for about 20 years) I can tell you that there is NO evidence for porcelain dolls in the 16th and 17th century. :( More's the pity, eh? (Incidentally, this is one of my pet peeves with historic fiction--nobody bothers to do their research! I can't tell you how many fictional references I've found to porcelain dolls LOTS earlier than they were ever widely used.) I tend toward erring on the side of caution, and I don't think I'd use a china head doll for anything much before 1850, and bisque heads were MUCH later than that. If you want an authentic 16th / 17th century doll, I'd opt for a linen CLOTH doll, a wooden doll (arguably most common) or a wax-dipped wooden doll. Hope this helps, and if anyone wants more indepth information, let me know. Then GIVE ME AWHILE to put away all my clothing books and LOCATE the doll books. It's been 3 moves in 2 years, and I haven't a clue where they are..... LuAnn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:30:14 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Dolls Drea wrote, > ... the real stuff--silk velvet and satin and all that. (It's > just the authenticity freak in me coming out--grab the stake and holy > water and you'll be fine). Certainly more affordable than fabric for a full size gown! > I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect > for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain > dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that > would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? There are tons of pretty Doll History books around, but they tend to have very few references before the 18thC. One book pictured a 15thC "doll", but it looked more like a religious statue to me. As I recall, porcelain was used for dolls in the early 19thC. Prior to that, doll heads & hands were made of papier mache as well as wood. I wasn't able to tell the papier mache from the porcelain from the photos of the dolls, they look that much alike. I'm sure the papier mache is lighter weight. I also don't know when it was first used for dolls. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:17:09 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re[2]: Dolls New Text Item: Re: Dolls Unfortunately there isn't a 16th century doll, but have any of you seen the American Girls dolls? There is a 1774, 1854, 1864, 1904, amd 1954 doll. They are accurate from the inside out, from panier, chemise, garters, cage crinolines, stockings, as well as dresses, and accessories. Pretty neat! Stacey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Dolls Author: aleed@DNACO.NET @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 11/19/96 4:01 PM > > When it comes to corseting, I much prefer the soft-bodied dolls > with the porcelain heads. Some are made with porcelain shoulders & > torsos all the way down into the bust. Dolls are available that would > be correct for some time periods (mid 19thC forward), and other > period dolls can be made from cloth or wood. There's a woodcut of a > naked Native American girl carrying a European doll. It's from the > 16th or 17th century, as I recall. Has anyone tried to reproduce this > doll? I have, for a while now, been longing to make a doll dressed in perfectly quarter-scale elizabethan garb, including stockings, garters, chemise, etc. made out of the real stuff--silk velvet and satin and all that. (It's just the authenticity freak in me coming out--grab the stake and holy water and you'll be fine). I saw a picture of an Elizabethan "fashion doll" in a book, but it was a small doll with rather rough features. I came across a woman that makes "lady dolls", i.e., with adult proportions, faces and figures. She made me a doll with the "typically" Elizabethan features--pale, high forehead, small mouth, grey eyes, frizzy red hair, etc--that was 18" tall. It has a porcelain head, hands and feet, and a cloth body. I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? Thanks a lot, Drea > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:41:04 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Chantal_M._P=E9court=22?=" Subject: Musty smells I am not sure if this is the proper place to ask, but since it does relate to clothing here goes. I have an old clothing closet ( the kind that is free standing and can be moved) from my grandmother. It was stored in her basement for many years. Unfortunatly the basement was always damp and the clothing closet has picked up a musty smell. When I got this I stripped off the many years of ruined stain and washed down the inside with clorox and water. I have restained this piece and now have a beautiful place to store clothes, the only problem is that it is still musty. It has been over a year since I cloroxed and restained it, I have tried the commercial must smell removers, the must out powders and also baking soda, but the smell is still there! There must be a way to get the musty smell out. I can't really use the piece for anything good until the smell is gone. Help please! Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:33:30 -0600 From: Wendy Robertson & Tim Weitzel Subject: washing clothes in Middle Ages My local SCA group has offered to assist a class of 5th-6th graders who are learning about the Middle Ages. They are focusing on England and Normandy, 1066-1300's. They need the information by November 25 (which means I need it by Nov. 24). We have each agreed to take a few questions. This time period is not my area of study and so I would like to ask for assistance from the list. My questions from the students include: Did they ever wash their clothes? How often did they change clothes? Did the serfs wear shoes? What kind? What was the most popular color used by the serfs? By the nobility? The last two I'll be able to answer, but I thought the list might have some good input. The first two I'm not sure I'll be able to give an accurate (but concise answer). I would appreciate any assistance you can give me. Thank you. Wendy Robertson wcrobert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:04:52 -0500 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: knitting history I've been reading Judith Merkle Riley's latest (I think) book, "The Serpent Garden", which is set in Tudor England. One of the minor characters supplements her income by knitting and selling mitts and sleeves. Does anyone know if there is any historical basis for this idea? Nothing about it in Rutt, which is the only source I have. I'd love to believe it . . . Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:36:17 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: When is Dickens? Thank you everyone for all of your helpful suggestions. But I am now confused on what the date of the "Dicken's" story and things are placed. Are there many diffrent styles for this period or have I just misunderstood? Again with humble admiration, Kimberly ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Nov 1996 to 19 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Nov 21 08:25:33 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04393 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:03:20 +0100 Message-Id: <199611210503.AA04393@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8809; Thu, 21 Nov 96 00:02:50 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9503; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:02:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:02:43 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Nov 1996 to 20 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 18 messages totalling 744 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dolls and Knitting 2. Dolls (2) 3. Various (2) 4. Dolls / Knitting 5. washing clothes in Middle Ages 6. Undelivered mail 7. Dolls - history and sources 8. knitting history (3) 9. early 19th c. dolls 10. Costume Interest 11. Blackwork on shirts and bands (2) 12. Book Sale in San Francisco 13. Sense and Sensibility ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:42:56 GMT From: TEDDY Subject: Dolls and Knitting > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > > So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for > > Barbie and her friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic > > body modifications in order to corset her? Try doing the same for "Pippa" dolls. They were *so* much smaller, and shoes simply wouldn't fit over socks/stockings. The girl dolls got the upper layers and their ordinary modern shoes hidden underneath, making (pre-long trouser period) clothes for "Pete" was a challenge I wasn't up to. Now I make cloth dolls with embroidered faces and (so far) knitting wool hair. They are child-shaped but I've been toying with the idea of more "adult" shaped/proportioned dolls for some time now. The ones I've done so far have been dressed in *many* different periods, and are big enough that the footwear problem doesn't arise. > From: aleed > water and you'll be fine). I saw a picture of an Elizabethan "fashion > doll" in a book, but it was a small doll with rather rough features. > I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect > for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain > dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that > would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? I recall seeing a portrait of a young (Elisabethan period) child holding a "fashion-doll" dressed in clothes from an erarlier period. I didn't look closely at the doll. If I can locate the picture, I'll check it again. From what I recall it was fairly small but *was* mentioned in the text accompanying the picture. > From: Jafath@AOL.COM > Subject: knitting history > > I've been reading Judith Merkle Riley's latest (I think) book, "The Serpent > Garden", which is set in Tudor England. One of the minor characters > supplements her income by knitting and selling mitts and sleeves. Does anyone > know if there is any historical basis for this idea? Nothing about it in > Rutt, which is the only source I have. I'd love to believe it . . . I had *just* finished reading something on this when I got this posting! In "Handbook of English costume in the sixteenth century" by C Willett & Phillis Cunnington, Faber and Faber (no year given!) Under the section heading "the Introduction of Knitting" - 'Pd the 10th day to Scotte's wife...for knitting a payr of hossis (stockings) for Mistres Thomasine Petre 6d.' 1554. Sir Wm.Petre's Household Accounts. E.R.O.D/DP A94. 'Item pd by Mary for dyeing and knytting a pair of hosses for Christian 5d. Item the knytting a payr for Frances 5d. Item the spinning the woole 2d.' 1554. From the same source. Under "Sources" this was listed as A. PRIMARY (a) Unpublished: Essex Record Office, Chelmsford. Including especialy the domestic accounts of the Petre family. Hope this helps! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:50:06 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Dolls Margaret Weller here-- Slightly off topic here. I've not yet gotten around to dressing any Barbies, but I did a Ken up as Dr. Frankenfurter. Great fun (and 20 hours work), but I could never figure out how to get Ken's feet to assume a high-heel posture... Someone offered me $200 for him anyway... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:05:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various Re Dolls in 16th and 17th century There are quite a few pictures of mothers and children, dating from later on in this period (late 16th, 17th and into 18th century) and from memory, some of them show girls with dolls, often dressed the same way as the child. The boys, even before breeching, have little swords. The dolls look wooden headed and cloth bodied and are not treated as precious (hung by one arm I seem to remember). The other source that might help is the Museum of Childhood, which I seem to remember is in Bethnall Green, London (UK), but I can't find the details. Pollocks Toy Museum, 1 Scala Street, London W1P 1LT UK, might also be able to help you. There may be equivalent specialist museums in the States. On porcelain, I understood no porcelain came into the UK until trade with China was established in the 18th century. First there is a simple period of importing Chinese wares (so any dolls would be Chinese), you then get a transition period when the Chinese manufacturers were manufacturing to European tastes, with varying degrees of success (some charming chinese versions of European originals) and European attempts to copy porcelain, mostly not very good. Finally - end of the century/19th century? - Europeans learnt how to make porcelain. BTW I learnt recently that that was the origin of why it is 'U' to put milk in last in tea according to Nancy Mitford. Porcelain would take the heat of boiling water for tea, but the European fakes wouldn't, so if you had bought the fake you would put the milk in first to cool the tea down. So if you were in the habit of putting the milk in first that suggested you were used to fake porcelain, or suggested you thought your hostess was using fake porcelain! Re 16th century Knitting I know some authors suggest knitting was widespread in some periods, but in 16th century England I am confident! There were knitted caps, which were the province of a guild of men, who defended their corner vigourously - and their caps cannot have been very popular as early in the century an act was promulgated which said every man had to wear on on Sundays, which is why they were known as statute caps. Woven, felted, hats were much more popular. Late on in the century knitted stockings came in, but again, 17th century specialists tell me that woven stockings did not go out of fashion as quickly as we sometimes assume. As for knitted sleeves (for what?) or mitts, so far as I know there is no evidence in 16th century England. It is my understanding that knitting was a closely guarded secret of the guild, so how would someone learn? The 'natural' thing in period, if you wanted a garment, seems to have been to look at a piece of cloth and work out the shape, not make the item from the spun fibres. The Museum of London's book on Textiles doesn't (I think) mention knitted fabrics, certainly the vast majority of the textiles covered are woven - that's the period 1100 to 1450. I agree with whoever said they get irritated about authors not doing their research, there are plenty of other trades a woman could do (seamstress, washerwoman, braid maker, others if your family was in the trade), tho' admittedly most of them suitable for a woman on her own were euphemisms for prostitution, there's a wonderful quote from 17th century someone gave me, about a survey involving 97 seamstresses, who owned 3 needles between them! Re: Request for information on 1066 - 1300 Not my period, but if you have access to the Web, try the Regia Anglorum pages. They are an English re-enactment group with very good pages and will certainly be able to answer your questions. Sorry I can't give you the address, we are having problems with the system at the moment. On colours, madder and woad are the basic, common dyes, so you are looking at shades of red/yellow or blue. On analogy with 16th century England, you would be reluctant to wash the heavy, woollen outer garments too often, but the smocks and shirts worn next to the skin, of much lighter linen, would get washed pretty frequently. Did you get the fun programme on the Crusades in the States, presented by one of the Monty Python lot (memory going again)? The programme laid great emphasis on the fact that the only women permitted on the Crusades (well, he didn't go into Eleanor of Aquitaine, but she was an exception to every rule) were washerwomen - they were prepared to compromise the purity of the holy endeavour in order to have clean linen, but for no other reason. The Crusaders even ransomed one bunch of washerwomen that were captured. Caroline Barbie dolls have more to do with costuming than dyes? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:50:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Dolls / Knitting Somehow I've managed to miss the original posting on dolls and early knitting - perhaps someone would forward it to me? Anyway - there's also a Museum of Childhood in England run by the National Trust, at Sudbury Hall which is in the Midlands I think. And there's a doll museum in Warwick. My understanding is that all dolls, fashion or toys, were wooden possibly with jointed limbs, until at least the mid 18th century. There's a very nice couple in the V & A complete with their whole wardrobe and accessories. I forget their names! The Claphams I think! There's a society in England called 'The Early Knitting Group' too. I'm sure I could find the details of all these if this actually relates to the original message. Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:01:41 -0500 From: Margritte Subject: Re: washing clothes in Middle Ages >Did the serfs wear shoes? What kind? When I was the demo-coordinator for the local SCA group several years ago, we used to ask kids which cost more: fabric or leather shoes. The kids would invariably chose leather, thinking of modern prices. We would then go on to explain that in medieval times, fabric was much more labor-intensive than it is today, whereas almost anyone had access to leather (though not necessarily for shoes; it was an all-purpose material). I don't know if most serfs wore shoes. Nobles, on the other hand, would were fabric shoes as a status symbol: "Hey, look at me! I can afford expensive shoes that will wear out quickly!" Obviously, they wore more practical shoes for everyday wear, but when they were dressing to the nines, richly embroidered cloth was the rule. This usually helped to get the students thinking about what else might have been different in the Middle Ages. -Margritte ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:44:24 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Dolls aleed wrote: > > I've heard that porcelain dolls aren't period, but this one is perfect > for my project. Does anyone know of any evidence for porcelain > dolls in the 16th or 17th centuries, or any good reference books that > would contain information on 16th and 17th century dolls? > > Thanks a lot, > > Drea >From the books I've got (I make porcelain dolls and collect all sorts of the little buggers), there is no evidence of porcelain dolls for in the 16th or 17th Century. While they mention clay dolls in the Americas during this time period, these look more like fertility idols than dolls children would play with - the sort of thing you'd find in National Geographic. The European dolls that I've seen (and the earliest still extant is from the 17th Century that I can find), these were generally made from wood, the torso carved in a "corseted" shape, with the arms pinned on thru the upper torso and a painted head (no real hair). Frankly, I think they're kind of ugly. A good overview would be "Dolls, Toys and Childhood" by Ruth Mathes. Most of her earliest examples are 18th Century but they look alot like the 17th Century ones. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:26:24 -0600 From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: Undelivered mail ---------- > > I would take this as a signal that it's time to teach her how to make her > > doll some clothes. A basic T-tunic can be cut out, and on a client as > > physically inactive as Barbie, doesn't even need to be seamed up the > sides > > -- just slip it over her head and tie on a belt. > > > > Just don't do what my mom did --when I was 4, she showed me how to make a > > high fashion (1961) sheath dress out of a child's sock. She neglected to > > stress to me that only socks without partners should be used, and several > > days later, Barbie had one heck of a wardrobe -- and I was out of socks. > > > > snip< > > > > So how many of us got our REAL start in costume working for Barbie and > her > > friends? And has anyone tried performing drastic body modifications in > > order to corset her? > > I suppose this is my cue to tell my costume story. > Yes, I too desired nothing more as a child than for my Barbie to have the > best custom wardrobe in town. I started with rectangles of fabric with two > holes for the arms and a twist-tie belt. I knew that this was not > sufficient. I kept bugging my mom to teach me how to sew real clothes on > her sewing machine, but mom worked at a job with a 45 min. commute each way > and didn't have time to sit down and show me how the machine worked. > Sometimes on weekend she would work on a new dress for me or herself and I > would sit and watch her sew. Finally, I waited till one day when the maid > wasn't watching and sat down to mom's machine and made my barbie a real > dress. The only thing mom ever taught me was where the reverse stitch > button was and how to wind the bobbin. > > From there I started making my own clothes and when I got to high school > and jr. college I took every sewing class I could. In high school I got > involved with the drama club and so costumes where the next logical step. > I majored in theatre costume in college, I was going to be a costume > designer. Unfortunately, personality politics got in my way and I ended up > leaving the university with no degree and no costume resume (my technical > theatre resume was another question, but I have a permanent disability and > the scene shop did not seem like a viable career at the time) and zero self > confidence and esteem. > > I wandered around for the next six or seven years trying to decide what to > do with my working life and not fitting in well any where, I made a decent > secretary type, although I wasn't really happy at my job except when I was > being the unpaid computer wienie. I still loved costume, particularly > historic costume. > > My disability finally allowed me to gracefully leave the mundane career > path for a tiny disability income. Somewhere in the last couple of years I > was working for the state, I renewed a college friendship with a gentleman > who was now in the SCA. Before I knew it I had started going to events and > making garb for myself. I loved it! After a couple of more years of > renewing my rusty sewing skill I started making garb for others, and people > were telling me I was good! After the disappointment of my college career > this was an amazing ego restructure. Now I make custom SCA garb for an > extra income and have full size barbie dolls to play with. I would really > like to go back to school and get a degree in costume/museum studies and > work on garb of every period. If anyone knows of any programs other that > Dalhousie (spelling?), please let me know. > > Sorry if the story got long winded, Thanks for all the interesting news and > hints this forum provides me. > > Marlo W. Peck > Knowne to the society as: > Muriel deRedfearne > gnameless@pen.net sorry this is messy, I had the address wrong the first time I sent it and had to re-send. Merl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:47:43 -0500 From: Susan Evans Subject: Dolls - history and sources I've been making dolls for over 10 years and have studied their history as well. Unfortunately most of my books are in storage at the moment BUT I do know that there are woodcuts/engravings of doll sellers from the early 1600's. The heads were either wood or earthenware. Porcelain dolls are later. Porcelain is a special type of clay - it needs a high firing temperature and a very gentle touch. Distort the head while it's wet and even if you tap it back into shape, it will likely distort in the firing. Porcelain dolls are coming in during the late 1700s - and just as luxury items. Wax dolls are also popping up then. Earthenware clay (a low fire clay, cheaper and much more forgiving in its handling) would have been the clay of choice for the dolls of the middle class. Doll Reader magazine quite often features articles on the history of dolls - unfortunately most of the focus is Victorian but sometimes it does go into older times. It also lists museums and source books in the articles, though. As for making fashion dolls today, try picking up a copy of Doll Crafter magazine. Several companies offer dolls already fired and painted. Some may also assemble them for you. For a truly magnificent doll try the company Vicki's Original Designs, PO Box 363, Valley Center, KS 67147. She offers dolls (men and women) from 36" to 11". Some are modeled after movie stars - Vivien Leigh, Liz Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, and Bette Davis - who BTW, makes a wonderful older version of Elizabeth I. I've gotten several of the molds and especially love one called Midori. The company also offers patterns - Victorian, Elizabethan, Medieval for the dolls. The larger the doll, the more detail you can work into the costume, of course. I've gone quite nuts on the 36" ones at times. For the Gone with the Wind fans, several of Scarlet's dresses are available as patterns. If you order the catalog of the doll molds you can check out the faces and then order the doll from one of the companies that offer it made up. Be sure to specify what you want exactly however - the breast plates on her dolls are really zaftig - they need to be cut down if you're going for a corseted look. Also inquire about the leg styles - some have shoes as part of the mold and some are bare foot. And again, ask if the bare foot is arched (as if wearing high heels) or flat. Most of the larger fashion dolls will have porcelain arms, legs and breast plates and a fabric body. I'll be glad when I move in the next few months so I can get out the kiln and get back to making some more. Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:16:27 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Various Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > Re Dolls in 16th and 17th century >...There may be equivalent specialist museums in the States. While I don't know how far back the dolls date (I was only interested in the 19th cent. ones.) The Strong Museum in Rochester, NY has quite a large collection of doll, and other toys (along with at least a bit of just about everything else! :-)) Everything on the study level has a number and you have to go to the card catalog and look up the description to learn more about it. It was a bit cumbersome, but it did make of an interesting test of my accuracy on dating items. (I did much better than I expected I would :-)) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:37:51 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: Re: knitting history Jo Anne and all, Check Rutt, pages 63 to 65. He details the knitted finds from the Mary Rose, an English ship that went down in 1545. I won't comment on the "mitts" (a Victorian term I believe) but the picture on page 65 sure could be a "sleeve". Were these the product of commercial or domestic knitting? My guess would be commercial but please not the use of the word 'guess'. I would also 'guess' that the knitters were mostly men at this stage. Please don't ask for documentation - I don't have it, just educated gut feelings. The history of knitting is murky, prior to 1600 it's practically blank. As regards Ms. Riley - IMHO she's one of the few historic fiction authors worth bothering with. Su _ Su Carter Weaver, spinner, lacemaker (508) 746-1622 ext.214 Plimoth Plantation sucarter@msn.com Box 1620 Plymouth, MA 02362 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:54:59 EST From: "Wilson, Annette" Subject: Re: knitting history Hi everyone. Two snippits to add to the discussion on knitting. First, the Museum of London's Textile book does list three knitted fragments, one of which is probably a bit of a hat (I use the term loosely). The other two are of indeterminate use, athough one seems definitely flat. I can't be more specific, the book is at home. Secondly, a thought regarding the illustrations of the "knitting Madonnas" in Rutt. I have never seen a picture of Mary doing any "unfeminine" activity. This suggests that knitting at that period was an established female activity, if only for production of items for domestic use (as opposed to saleable items). Annette Wilson Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:25:10 -0500 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: early 19th c. dolls Hello everyone: I was wondering if, while everyone refers back to their doll sources, if people could keep an eye out for information on very early 19th c. dolls. My husband runs the visitor program of Fort George, Parks Canada, which portrays the fort in 1811, on the eve (or the morning, depending) of the War of 1812. He'd like to have a primitive doll whittled for one of their young volunteers to dangle. My impression is that a lot of the common dolls were the sort of hideous nubbins that would frighten a modern small child to hysterics, but so be it! (Sorta like the one described in the opening chapter of Jane Eyre.) If you could just note the title and page number, that would be a big help. This would be a "baby" for a child of a soldier. Thanks, Sheridan ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:42:38 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Costume Interest I just wonder what got you started or interested in historical costumes, and >what you do with them after they are made? OOPS I just realized I sent this to the original poster, not the list. Here goes: I would say that my start came when I was three years old, woke up and and found my parents were having a party, and there, sitting on their couch, was a Fairy Princess in the most beautiful, magical gown I had ever seen. She was a friend's girlfriend from India, and she was wearing a pink silk sari and all the jewelry that goes with it. It started a lifelong interest in beautiful and exotic clothing. Shortly after that we moved to Placerville, California, a gold-rush era town that celebrates the pioneers every year by staging the Wagon Train, an actual covered wagon train that spends a week making a 50-mile journey, ending in Placerville with a parade and other festivities. When I was a child, all the people working downtown dressed in (very innaccurate) 19th century garb for the week, and and there was also a separate children's parade and costume competition, at which I won my first ribbon (I recently returned for the parade and was dissapointed to find that hardly anyone dresses for it anymore.) My mother started teaching me to sew when I was four, and I made a lot of doll clothes and doll's house furnishings, most of them in a style I call "Victorianoid". I blush to confess that at about age 13 I discovered the novels of Barbara Cartland and became addicted to her elaborate descriptions of period gowns. (No, really! I read them for the DRESSES!) I continued an interest in costume. I sewed for community theaters, which I hated due to time pressure and undeserved egos. When I moved to the San Francisco area in my mid 20's I got involved with Ren Faire, Dickens, SCA, and science fiction cons. I made most of my costumes for these events, and started a business making them for other people. For several years I had a bridal alterations and custom gown business (REALLY hated it) and I also worked in fabric stores, sold sewing machines, and sewed for a professional theater company. As for how we get so knowledgable: I have never taken a course in costuming -- I've just read everything I could on the subject. These days, I'm a stay at home mom, and have neither time, space, or money to do much costuming. :( Instead, I read and write about it on this list.:) Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:05:35 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Blackwork on shirts and bands Hi Folks! I need to call upon the assembled wisdom of the list to direct me on a new project. I finally feel like I have a wee bit of time to do some fancy work for myself (believe it or not!) and as I need to make myself several new shirts (work and dress) for 17th cen/English Civil War reenacting anyway, I tho't that I might like to try a bit of blackwork. My questions are these: 1.) By the 1635-50 time period, how common was it for good quality middleclass mens shirts to be decorated with blackwork? 2.) If it was used, where was it applied? Shirtcollars? Cuffs? 3.) Is there evidence in this period (1635-50) for blackwork being applied to falling bands? Hand falls? etc? Again, I am interested in middleclass mens shirts, not gentry or nobility. Any info that you all could shake loose will be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone could suggest any books that would be super too! Thanks! Luke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:06:13 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: knitting history >Jo Anne and all, > >Check Rutt, pages 63 to 65. He details the knitted finds from the Mary Ros= e, >an English ship that went down in 1545. I won't comment on the "mitts" (a >Victorian term I believe) but the picture on page 65 sure could be a "sleev= e". > Were these the product of commercial or domestic knitting? My guess would= be >commercial but please not the use of the word 'guess'. I would also 'guess= ' >that the knitters were mostly men at this stage. Please don't ask for >documentation - I don't have it, just educated gut feelings. The history o= f >knitting is murky, prior to 1600 it's practically blank. > Su Carter Hi Folks! While I was at a 17th cen muster this Oct. I had a chance to see a set of 'sleeves' that one of my compatriots had reproduced from the Mary Rose finds. These 'sleeves' came up to just above the elbow and looked rather like the sleeve protectors that men wore in offices in the earlier part of this century. I think they would be warm and practical to wear with a cassack or cloak where your arms tend to poke out if you need to do anything. Just my 2=A2. L. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 03:41:32 -0800 From: Michael Marcrum Subject: Re: Blackwork on shirts and bands Luke and all, Since this has been brought up I would love to find a book with directions for doing black work. Does anyone have the title of a good book?? Kathy mmarcrum@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:09:32 -0800 From: thomas gladysz Subject: Book Sale in San Francisco WARNING! This is a shameless advertisment that may save you money on costuming books if you live in San Francisco. On Saturday November 23rd and Sunday November 24th, A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books will be having our first ever sale in our 21 year history. And as a birthday celebration all books will be 21% off. There are a few restrictions to this sale, they are: =No Phone, e-mail, or mail orders ! Yikes ! =Books in-stock and on-hand only, no rain checks. =No books will be held, and no lay-away. Otherwise ...... As of Wednesday the 20th, we have "The Cut of Women's Clothing," and "The Cut of Men's Clothing" in stock I have many of the Dover books in stock as well. I believe I have "Corsets and Crinolines" in stock, as well as "The Art of Dress" by Ashelford and "The Art of Dress" by Ribiero. That's just the tip of the iceberg. We have a large section devoted to costume, costume history, fashion, and construction. I'm not holding any inventory back, so if someone buys them between now and this weekend, oops. For an idea of the costuming books we carry, check out our web site (although the sale is NOT applicable by e-mail) http://www.bookstore.com Our sale will be taking place at all three of our locations, however, the San Francisco store is the one with the good costuming section. (No inter-store transfers, yikes!) Our address is: A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books 601 Van Ness between Turk and Golden Gate There is a (very expensive) parking garage beneath us and we will validate 1 hour of parking with a minimun $10.00 purchase. Our hours this weekend (and always) are, on Saturday 10am till midnight, and Sunday 10am till 11pm. Our phone number is 415-441-6670. And yes, we take Visa, mastercard, American Express, checks and yes - we will accept cash. Hope to see you there. My name is Christy - I am very interested in fashion and costume history. If you can make it, please introduce yourself. Let's talk shop! I will be working Sunday from 10 till 5 thanks, Christy Pascoe. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:56:04 -0800 From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Sense and Sensibility I have been wondering this ever since the movie came out. Why is it that every single review of Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion describe the movies as 18th century? I just don't get it! ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Nov 1996 to 20 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Nov 22 09:43:26 1996 Received: from BROWNVM.brown.edu ([128.148.19.19]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13005 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 22 Nov 1996 06:02:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199611220502.AA13005@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0761; Fri, 22 Nov 96 00:01:43 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7243; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:01:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 513 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Weaving sources? 2. Blackwork resources 3. Knitting 4. Fashion dolls 5. American Girls Dolls 6. Flame retardent solutions 7. Sense and Sensibility (4) 8. Doll history 9. What century did you say this is? 10. Linen thread 11. dolls 12. Dolls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:31:17 -0500 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Weaving sources? Can anyone recommend sources for textiles for the 16th century? I've been weaving a while and want to make a more authentic piece of garb. I know what types of threads to use but I don't have any pattern drafts for the weave of the fabric. I'd like to make something other than plain weave, if possible. Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:48:52 -0800 From: Elizabeth Pruyn Subject: Blackwork resources >Luke and all, >Since this has been brought up I would love to find a book with >directions for doing black work. Does anyone have the title of a good >book?? >Kathy >mmarcrum@ix.netcom.com Hi there, These resources were posted on our Renaissance Faire list in response to a similar question. Hope this helps. Yours, Elizabeth Blackwork Embroidery -------------------- http://www16.crl.com/~kdyer/documents/mag_book_vid.html Needlework FAQ: Magazines, Books, Videotapes http://www.ambook.org/bookstore/needlework/ Hard-to-Find Needlework Books http://www.pacificnet.net/~pmarmor/bwarch.html Elizabethan Blackwork: The Blackwork Embroidery Archives [patterns and everything!!! yaay!] http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext.faq/usenet/crafts/textiles/faq/part1 /faq.html Textiles FAQ from rec.crafts.textiles and alt.sewing http://www.greenduck.com/newrtpl/charts.htm Green Duck Designs Charts Category Price List http://bull.got.kth.se/~annat/ Anna's LARP Crafts Links Page [a lot of this is in Swedish, but the links are great; there's a whole section on embroidery, and for the fellas, a bunch of links on making your own armor, weapons, chainmail, and even a link called "Much ado about bondage..." I'll let you go there yourselves... plus, there's quite a few costuming sites] http://www.ftech.net/~regia/embroid.htm Embroidery Techniques http://www.crl.com/~kdyer/xstitch.html Counted Cross Stitch, Needlework, and Stitchery Page http://www.tiag.com/ Told in a Garden [stitchery resources and designs] http://www.fml.com/bsd/ Black Swan Designs [counted cross stitch designs] http://www.scsn.net/users/pegasus/ Pegasus Originals Inc. [more counted cross stitch] and my personal favorite, the granddaddy of them all (well, not really, but I'm mighty impressed by the contents of this page-it's emphasis is on info., not flash): http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jscole/medembro.html The Medieval/Renaissance Embroidery Home Page Milieux:The Costume Site http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html The best costume site I've seen, with links to everything you can imagine. ----------------------------- NEEDLEWORK: Medieval/Renaissance Embroidery Homepage http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/jscole/medembro.html Donna's Needlework Page http://www.dabbler.com/ndlwrk.html Valuable not so much for itself as for its many good links. Counted Cross Stitch, Needlework, and Stitchery Page http://www.crl.com/~kdyer/xstitch.html The Lacemaker's Home Page http://www.arachne.com/ Blackwork Embroidery Archives http://www.pacificnet.net/~pmarmor/bw_sesns.html A little disappointing -- only six designs. The Medieval/Renaissance Embroidery Home Page http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/jscole/medembro.html Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:55:03 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: Knitting On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, TEDDY wrote: > I recall seeing a portrait of a young (Elisabethan period) child > holding a "fashion-doll" dressed in clothes from an erarlier period. > I didn't look closely at the doll. If I can locate the picture, I'll > check it again. From what I recall it was fairly small but *was* > mentioned in the text accompanying the picture. This may not be the one Teddy has in mind but in Jane Ashelford's _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I_, on p. 75 there is a picture of Arabella Stuart (1577) and the following accompanying text: "It also seems likely that fashion dolls were circulating in England, for it was a method of passing on information that was used as early as 1396 at the French court, when records show that a tailor was paid for making a doll's wardrobe. A direct reference to the existence of fashion dolls in England occurs during the trial in November 1615... Fashion dolls were probably handed down to children when they had served their purpose, and a likely example of this use can be seen in a 1577 portrait of Arabella Stuart, aged 23 months, which depicts her holding a very sophisticated doll wearing a highly detailed costume of the mid 1560s." No mention of how they dolls were made, tho'. --l. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:59:04 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: Fashion dolls Greetings! I helped a friend of mine research and document (as much as she could in a couple of weeks--she kept putting it off) the 16th century fashion dolls for an SCA arts and sciences comp. There are only a couple of extant examples, but there are also a couple of portraits that show 'em. The theory is that the dolls were a way for tailors to show the latest fashions to their customers--there is an extant letter that mentions a lady sending one to a tailor for dressing. I'd love to hear more info on the extant example, if anyone has it. It apparently was made of cloth, with an embroidered face--not really "rough", although perhaps a bit "primitive". We'd love to know, for instance, how the clothes were attached--it was my own theory that the clothes were probably sewn right to the doll, and the doll was not meant to be "dressed and undressed"--this likely meant it did not have a complete set of underclothes, including corset. (My friend's Laurel wanted her to do something more akin to a period Barbie doll, with interchangeable clothes; my poor friend got the doll only half-finished, with a petticoat and chemise her only clothing, as a result...) It is thought that the dolls were perhaps given to children after they had served their purpose. As I said, any further info would be gleefully sucked up. She had real problems finding any scholarly sources on dolls beyond one or two; unlike me, she's not the kind of person who knows how to dig for such sources. Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:15:57 -0600 From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Subject: Re: American Girls Dolls They also sell patterns, fairly accurate, for the various eras. My daughter has one of their "custom" dolls, where you can choose from an assortment of eye colors, skin tones, hair color, etc. Mary Katherine (the doll) looks a lot like my daughter, and accompanies us to Civil War reenactments. The construction of the doll is not quite right for the 1860's, but we have some patterns and I can actually get Chellie to sit and sew for 30-45 minutes at a time. Anything that can make a 7 year old sit still for a little while and be constructive is a good thing. Sandy Waldrop swaldrop@prairienet.org On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM wrote: > New Text Item: Re: Dolls > > Unfortunately there isn't a 16th century doll, but have any of you seen the > American Girls dolls? There is a 1774, 1854, 1864, 1904, amd 1954 doll. They > are accurate from the inside out, from panier, chemise, garters, cage > crinolines, stockings, as well as dresses, and accessories. Pretty neat! > > Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:15:21 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Flame retardent solutions Margaret Weller here--- Someone asked several days ago about flame retardant solutions made with boric acid. I did not see a reply (but sometime I miss things), so I am sending the one that I have from the Oregon State University Extension Service . MAKING FABRICS FLAME RESISTANT Flame-retardant solutions usually cause a slight stiffening of the treated fabric, which becomes somewhat heavier. However, these solutions cause no appreciable change in the feel or color of the material. Treated garments will not injure or irritate the skin. Treatment may lessen the fiber strength of materials when they are stored for long periods. SOLUTION A, described in the following section, has least effect on fiber strength. *Repeat Treatment After Each Laundering!* PREPARING SOLUTIONS Chemicals can be purchased at most drug or grocery stores. Commercial grades give as good results as more expensive pharmaceutical grades. Solution A Borax------------------7oz Boric Acid (Granular)--3oz Water (hot)------------2qts Dissolve boric acid by making a paste with a small quantity of water. Add this and the borax to water. Stir until the solution is clear. Warm the solution if it becomes cloudy or jelly-like from standing. Fabrics treated with Solution A do not flame when exposed to fire. Glow lasts about 30 seconds. this solution does not appreciably weaken fabric, even after treated fabric has been stored 6 or 8 months. Materials treated with it may lose their flame resistance in time. Re-treat within a year. Use Solution A for garments and other household fabrics, except those made of rayon or resin-treated cotton--sometimes called crushproof, wrinkleproof, or wash-and-wear. (Note: one of the other solutions on the list I have is recommended for these fabrics) Note: There are three other solutions listed on my handout. This is the best all-around solution, but, as it says, not universal. If there is interest I can enter the rest of the document for the list, or send to interested individuals. Margaret Weller email: conradh@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:18:56 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? Yours, NSN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:15:13 -0500 From: Sharron Fina Subject: Doll history To those who are interested: Try the website for Ashton Drake, a major collector doll company (that knows me all too well) http://www.ashtondrake.com/kitchen.html and click on history. It gives a thumbnail history of dolls, their uses and material make-up over the centuries. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu Department of Neuroscience University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:54:03 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility Noelle Nicol wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The > fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My > memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? > > Yours, > > NSN Aside from anything else (I, forgive me, do not like Jane Austen, neither in print or in film) George (later IV) became Regent in 1811 (because George III was visiably mad) and was Regent until 1820 when he became King in his own right = George IV. The Regency period can said to extend a few years on either side of that but: 1780... I think not. We are talking about Jane Austen and England not Josephine and France. Fashions at that time (for men) were set by George and Beau Brummel. The women's clothes may reflect French fashions (when do they not?) but early 19th Century not 18th Century. :-))))) ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:08:41 +1100 From: Greg & Jocelyn House Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility >Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The >fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My >memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? > >Yours, > >NSN Actually the French Revolution didn't take place until 1789. Then during the ninties there was the rule of the Committee for Public Safety and after that Napoleon came on the scene in the late nineties. I believe his first successful campaign was in 1797. Considering that his defeat at Waterloo took place in 1815, the majority of his time was in the early nineteenth century. As far as the dress of this time goes I seem to remember hearing (though I can't vouch for the veracity of this) that the French at the time were basing their designs on those of Ancient Rome (it is said that Napoleon saw himself as the successor of the Roman Emperors) and as a consequence the English based theirs on that of Ancient Greece. Jocelyn House ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:21:15 +0000 From: Leslie H Subject: What century did you say this is? Two ideas about the century problem. 1. Appalling as it may be, some people are living entirely in the now (or, more incomprehensibly, in the future) and really have no grasp of the correct sequencing. Many of them work for the press. SOME of them are probably correcting what they think are errors in the submitted reviews of the film. Go ahead, be paranoid about this. I am. 2. The offenders may be afflicted with whatever learning disability it is that makes this kind of calculating difficult. For you, it may not be a calculation. However, I have to stop and reason it out EVERY TIME. My brain just can't associate the pairs; 1800s equals nineteenth centery, etc. Actually, people with learning disabilities are starting to outnumber those without (pretty soon we'll have to have special classes for the normally abled!?) and some of them just won't remember to struggle with it. {Hey Erin--I can't wait to start on the next play. Remember to get your grommet setter back from the studio--you'll have to ask me where it is (and then I'll have to find it).} Larisa or Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:55:35 -0700 From: Christine Gilbreath Subject: Re: Linen thread Hi Linen thread is also used in book binding, lace making and leather working. You might follow those leads to find it also. Here's what I found on the web on a quick search. Fiber & Pulp P.O. Box 9 Jackson, Wyoming 83001 Tel: (307) 734-2599 E-mail: fiberpulp@aol.com http://www.wyoming. com/~hanson/fiberpulp.shl Fiber & Pulp sells binding supplies such as linen thread and tape, PVA, and bone folders, and has a large selection of Japanese, Thai, Indian, and various other papers. They also offer workshops of many kinds, which include everything from how to make a portfolio, album, or piano hinge book to rubber stamping. **** http://www.uidaho.edu/~paulineb/suppliers.html Lots of bookmaking suppliers **** http://www.arachne.com/lace_sources.us.html Lace and tatting supplies **** Christy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:01:15 EST From: "Sandra J. Westergren" <74133.704@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: dolls Greetings In the SCA I made a stuffed doll for an auction. It was also entered in the Pennsic A&S Champions point at Pennsic 19. Althought the head was really a rabbit's (long story there), the body was stuffed cotton, about 20" tall, and it was dressed from the skin out in Elizabethan. Stockings, garters, chemise, boned corset, bumroll, reed hoop skirt, petticoats, beaded forepart, pearled cartridge pleated overskirt, pearled boned bodice, tied in sleeves, partlet, neck and wrist ruffs. jewelry, girder with pomander, pillbox hat, feather fan. It was a joy to do and I truely was sad to give it up. But. . . . Except for the composition of the body and head, it was an elaborate period fashion doll. From doing research at that time I discovered the following: today's toys often began as yesterday's fashion dolls fashion dolls date from the 1400's bodies were usually primitive (wood, clay, rags, leather bags filled with bran or sawdust) bodice was conical as was the skirt (no legs) a 1567 publication notes a procedure for molding dolls using paper pulp, sawdust and arsenic and pressing it into hollow moulds. As of 1564, this was being shipped from Germany to England and France (sounds similier to paper mache) a doll in the Royal Armoury Collection in Stockholm, 1590, has a body of wire armature covered in silk thread Real hair is braided and attached to the head. The face is embroidered. one woodcut, probably late 16th or early 17th by the look of the fashions, shows a woman and child at a toy merchants booth, which features _lots_ of dolls I believe a reference earlier was to a portrait from Ashleford's 'Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I' showing a little girl, Arabella Stuart dated 1577, holding a wonderful doll. The costume on the doll is accurate. The head shows great detail, although no indication of materials used. Sorry this got long. If anyone wishes references from my bibligraphy, please contact me. Trying to find time to do more dolls. . . . . . Sandy Westergren Minneapolis Minnesota SCA - Mistress Cassandra of the Western Green Nordskogen - Northshield - Middle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:18:01 -0500 From: Rebecca Marler Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility Publishing dates: _Pride and Prejudice_ first offered to the publisher under the title _First Impression_ in November 1797; _Sense and Sensibility_, documentation shows that it was written in its earliest form in 1795 through letters, more of a novel in 1797; _Northanger Abbey_, written under the title _Susan_, from 1798-9 and sold to the publisher in 1803, not printed until a year before the author's death. R ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:22:57 -0500 From: COakley@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dolls I don't believe I've seen any garbed Barbies at events hereabouts (Illinois), but I am aware of a few stuffed animals with excellent wardrobes, including a family of Wild Thing dolls with both Viking and 13th-c. heraldic garb. (Lord Wild also owns quite an arsenal of miniature weapons.) Hardly "Period," but cute! :)> Kate Oakley ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Sat Nov 23 09:14:50 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23189 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 23 Nov 1996 06:02:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199611230502.AA23189@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3032; Sat, 23 Nov 96 00:01:35 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2964; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:01:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Nov 1996 to 22 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 5 messages totalling 127 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. regency, give or take (2) 2. Glove References needed 3. sources of wool for French & Indian reenactment? 4. Victorian Girl's Dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:49:27 +0000 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: regency, give or take > The Regency period can said > to extend a few years on either side of that but: 1780... I think not. > We are talking about Jane Austen and England not Josephine and France. > Fashions at that time (for men) were set by George and Beau Brummel. > The women's clothes may reflect French fashions (when do they not?) but > early 19th Century not 18th Century. > 1810 was the point at which Parliament finally acceded to Prinny's urgent wish to be made permanent regent with full royal prerogatives, as George III was not only probably terminally mad but getting very old and blind. However, he had been temporary regent several times before, when the king had had earlier attacks of porphyria (which, interestingly enough, apparently afflicted Prinny too and several of his brothers). However, if we are discussing dress styles, i.e, the high-waisted late 18th early 19th style, I think the French revolution (and classical antiquity) was the inspiration behind the proletarianizing of both men's and women's clothes in the late 18th century. The men imitated the working men's long trousers, and the women adopted the chemise as the basic look. The waist had been rising in the early 1790's and about 1795 women started wearing the formfollowing high waisted unpetticoated underwear look. It lasted until about 1820, when the waistline started sneaking back in. And the rest is vapours for several decades. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:28:51 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: regency, give or take Dorothy Stein wrote: > > > The Regency period can said > > to extend a few years on either side of that but: 1780... I think not. > > We are talking about Jane Austen and England not Josephine and France. > > Fashions at that time (for men) were set by George and Beau Brummel. > > The women's clothes may reflect French fashions (when do they not?) but > > early 19th Century not 18th Century. > > > 1810 was the point at which Parliament finally acceded to Prinny's urgent > wish to be made permanent regent with full royal prerogatives, as George III > was not only probably terminally mad but getting very old and blind. > However, he had been temporary regent several times before, when the king > had had earlier attacks of porphyria (which, interestingly enough, > apparently afflicted Prinny too and several of his brothers). > However, if we are discussing dress styles, i.e, the high-waisted late > 18th early 19th style, I think the French revolution (and > classical antiquity) was the inspiration behind the proletarianizing of > both men's and women's clothes in the late 18th century. The men > imitated the working men's long trousers, and the women adopted the > chemise as the basic look. The waist had been rising in the early 1790's > and about 1795 women started wearing the formfollowing high waisted > unpetticoated underwear look. It lasted until about 1820, when the > waistline started sneaking back in. And the rest is vapours for several > decades. My reference works tell me that the French adpoted English styles after the French Revolution. (Millia Contotini: FASHION, etc.) It is often hard to trace where things come from - but the important thing is to look at the styles themselves. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:27:27 MST From: Lyssa/Maggie Griggs Subject: Glove References needed Greetings all! I've been given a wonderful gift: a hand stitched replica of elizabethan leather gloves. The stipulation on the gift was that I had to finish the cuffs myself. (Oh, and not wear the _really_ awful ones I'd had on with the dress. :) I'd like to be able to finish these off well and complement the lovely work which has already gone into them. Can anyone offer any tips or books which will give me enough info to attempt this project? Thanks! Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/costume.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:17:43 -0500 From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: sources of wool for French & Indian reenactment? As you may have guessed from the subject line, we're looking for some sources of wool for a French & Indian War reenactment group. The colors we need are Madder Red and Navy Blue. We're looking for a source that has the most authentic fabric at the least expensive price. Sorry if I'm a little vague about specifics, I'm new to the group and am more or less passing on the request. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. --Kimberly kgilbert@bluemarble.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:42:10 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Victorian Girl's Dress Victorian Fans, I took a pattern today from a Kate Greenaway 1890's girl's dress today. Who is Kate Greenaway? Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Nov 1996 to 22 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 25 10:56:20 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29310 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:01:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199611240501.AA29310@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4772; Sun, 24 Nov 96 00:00:41 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8896; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:00:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 240 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Glove References needed 2. A book about Elizabethan dress? 3. Burgundy 1450 (2) 4. Dyeing 5. Weaving sources? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 01:59:41 EST From: Charlene Charette <72430.224@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Glove References needed >>> I've been given a wonderful gift: a hand stitched replica of elizabethan leather gloves. [snip] Can anyone offer any tips or books which will give me enough info to attempt this project? >>> If photos of existing gloves from the period will help, look for _A Pictorial History of Embroidery_ by Muller-Christensen and Schuette. It's available as an English translation of the original German (although it's mostly pictures). Even our little library has a copy. This is a wonderful book for anyone interested in historical needlework. --Charlene ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:26:48 +2 From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Subject: A book about Elizabethan dress? I am planning to make an Elizabethan costume (female, noble or middle class) for myself and as I do not have any good book about the subject, I'd like to know which is the best book for the job (preferably with some kind of pattern pieces or such). Any other hints would also be welcome. TIA Ella Lynoure Rajamaki-----------* lynoure@clinet.fi * --------------------------------*http://www.iki.fi/~lynoure* a USENETer. (It's _use_net, not _spam_net!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:14:04 +0100 From: Nils Svangard Subject: Burgundy 1450 Hello, Well I'm new to this list and I'd better start with a hard question woudln't I? ;) Anyay, currently we're a little reenactment society in sweden who are targeting the 1450:ies of Burgundy (mainly the french "part") and we have some problems considering the clothes. For the past 1-2 month we've done as much research as we could and have come up with quite alot of information, the hard thing is that most of it contradicts each other :(. So what I am wonering is if someone out there has knolwedge about this, and especially if you have really tried to make a copy of them. Or perhaps a pointer to some interesting source of information. TIA, Hrafn -- Finger me for even _more_ information. ;) __________________ ___ __________________ ____________________ ///\ \/ \ ///\ \/ \ (((((| ## | (((((| Main programmer of: ## | \\\\| Hrafn aka: ### | \\\\| -Space- #### | > Nils Svangard < | ## -Raiders- #### | | Vasterlanggatan 20 | | [a MU R3D strategic space/wargame] | # < | S-111 29 STOCKHOLM | > by Vagabond Software Design (VSD) | | SWEDEN | | WWW: http://www.canit.se/~tengu | | Phone: +46 8 109597 | | ## | > EMail: hrafn@kuai.se| > Also involved in: P. Enigma/AdvPrj # | | (hrafn@abc.se)| | a R3D graphical fantasy MUD. ### | | # ____________________ | ## _____________________ ____________ | ## ))))))))))))))))))))) | # ))))))))))))))))))))))\/)))))))))))))) \__///////////////////// \__////////////////////////////////////// [This space is for rent, contact me ;)] _________________ _____________________________________________ ___ ///\ \/ \/ \ (((((| Also: Theoretical physicist, Amateur Jester (Juggling et.c.), | \\\\| Medieval Anachronist, and a lot of other things. | | ____________________________________________________________________ | )))))))))))))))))))))))))\/)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) \__///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Homepage can (soon) be found at: http://www.kuai.se/~hrafn. o o o / \ Stockholms \ \ / S \ Gycklar \ "Homepage" at: http://www.kuai.se/~hrafn/sgg \ / G G \ Gille, SGG \ \ o-------o o o ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 22:15:01 PST From: Dennis Allen Carr Subject: Re: Dyeing I saw this on the fantasy costume list - somebody might want to help this one out. Fa! =) Skyrider writes: > Hello out there! > > I want to sew a mediaeval dress of a natural material such as linen or > cotton. As I want it to look as real as possible I'd like to dye it > myself in old techniques. Does anyone out there know, how you dye without > modern chemical colours? The colours I would prefer are some kind of > green or a dark red, but I would be grateful for any kind of tips. > > Thank you > Skyrider > -- > _______ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _____ ______ _____ > / _______\ | | / / \ \ / / | _ \ | | | ___ \ | ____| | __ \ > | |_____ | |/ / \ \/ / | |_| | | | | | \ \ | |__ | |_| | > \_____ \ | | \ / | / | | | | | | | __| | / > ______| | | |\ \ / / | |\ \ | | | |___/ / | |____ | |\ \ > \_______ / |_| \_\ /_/ |_| \_\ |_| |_____ / |______| |_| \_\ > May the Force be with you. > Have an ICE day!! > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@world.std.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE F-COSTUME --- Dennis Allen Carr KE6ISF outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:23:36 -0700 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: Weaving sources? This is a tricky problem. I have found sources for documentation of which particular weaving patterns go with which particular periods to be sketchy at best. I think this is because weavers, being for most of the Middle Ages, at least, largely illiterate, there was no need to write much down. Information was passed mainly from person to person, and within guilds, a lot would have been kept "secret". However, you need not keep to plain weave: there are enough examples of cloth to make some decisions. 1) Twill patterns are period, indeed, there are examples from as early as the Hallstatt site. 2) This is only an opinion, but I think that many of the fabrics we think of as "brocade" from the sixteenth century are probably twill combination patterns. I did some chair covers in a pattern like this and most people do percieve it as a brocade. 3) Overshots of more than two blocks don't seem to have any solid documentation before the 17th century. I would be a little wary of using this if you want to be totally documentable. There is a great book for 4-harness loom weavers that has scads of patterns (no doc. in our sense of the word, so you still must do some research): "A Handweavers Pattern Book" by Marguerite Porter Davison, 0-9603172-0-1, available, I believe, through Interweave Press. Morgan On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Susan Evans wrote: > > Can anyone recommend sources for textiles for the 16th century? I've > been weaving a while and want to make a more authentic piece of garb. I > know what types of threads to use but I don't have any pattern drafts for > the weave of the fabric. I'd like to make something other than plain > weave, if possible. > > Sue Evans > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:55:35 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Burgundy 1450 I've found the best book on burgundian costume to be The History of Costume: Europe 1400-1500 by Margaret Scott. I've only come across one copy of it, and haven't been able to find another, but the book is fantastic--Margaret goes through the century in 5 year increments, documenting changes in styles and fashions, and supporting everything with primary evidence--and she includes tons and tons of pictures of period paintings, etc. If you can find it, It's the best resource you can have. Drea On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Nils Svangard wrote: > Hello, > Well I'm new to this list and I'd better start with a hard question > woudln't I? ;) Anyay, currently we're a little reenactment society in > sweden who are targeting the 1450:ies of Burgundy (mainly the french > "part") and we have some problems considering the clothes. For the past > 1-2 month we've done as much research as we could and have come up with > quite alot of information, the hard thing is that most of it contradicts > each other :(. So what I am wonering is if someone out there has knolwedge > about this, and especially if you have really tried to make a copy of > them. Or perhaps a pointer to some interesting source of information. > > TIA, Hrafn > > -- > Finger me for even _more_ information. ;) > __________________ ___ __________________ ____________________ > ///\ \/ \ ///\ \/ \ > (((((| ## | (((((| Main programmer of: ## | > \\\\| Hrafn aka: ### | \\\\| -Space- #### | > > Nils Svangard < | ## -Raiders- #### | > | Vasterlanggatan 20 | | [a MU R3D strategic space/wargame] | # < > | S-111 29 STOCKHOLM | > by Vagabond Software Design (VSD) | > | SWEDEN | | WWW: http://www.canit.se/~tengu | > | Phone: +46 8 109597 | | ## | > > EMail: hrafn@kuai.se| > Also involved in: P. Enigma/AdvPrj # | > | (hrafn@abc.se)| | a R3D graphical fantasy MUD. ### | > | # ____________________ | ## _____________________ ____________ > | ## ))))))))))))))))))))) | # ))))))))))))))))))))))\/)))))))))))))) > \__///////////////////// \__////////////////////////////////////// > [This space is for rent, contact me ;)] > _________________ _____________________________________________ ___ > ///\ \/ \/ \ > (((((| Also: Theoretical physicist, Amateur Jester (Juggling et.c.), | > \\\\| Medieval Anachronist, and a lot of other things. | > | ____________________________________________________________________ > | )))))))))))))))))))))))))\/)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) > \__///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > Homepage can (soon) be found at: http://www.kuai.se/~hrafn. > > o o o > / \ Stockholms \ \ > / S \ Gycklar \ "Homepage" at: http://www.kuai.se/~hrafn/sgg \ > / G G \ Gille, SGG \ \ > o-------o o o > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Nov 25 10:56:21 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05515 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:01:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199611250501.AA05515@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6147; Mon, 25 Nov 96 00:01:08 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4803; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:01:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Nov 1996 to 24 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 7 messages totalling 195 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 2. out of town & off line 3. 1905 accessories 4. Hair styles for many periods (2) 5. Porcelain 6. Kate Greenaway dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:26:58 -0500 From: Lisa Bauer Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 Hi H-costumers, I am in the position finally, of having some extra dough, and would like to have a costume made for me. Does anyone know if the costumers (actual sempstering, foundation, millinery, and cobblery) of say, Merchant Ivory or the like, do non-movie work? I'm not talking about renting or buying something already made, but having it made. Otherwise, if there are any professional period seamstress out there in h-costume land who could help me out, drop me a line. Access to period silks, laces, and fabrics, shoes, and accessories (non-vintage) is a plus. I'm in Southern California, West LA to be exact. I want something very historically accurate, from the skin out. My design. I want chemise, corset, corset cover, hoop/crinoline, petticoats, skirt, bodice, mantle, hat/bonnet. Period is mid-Victorian. Does not have to be hand-sewn, except where/if necessary. I have all the books, ideas, sketches, etc. but don't have the sewing time (or really inclination, *gasp*) anymore to do it myself. I'm also thinking about something Regency as well. In addition, does anyone have a good source for real kid gloves with buttons in various colors? Not the ones with really skinny fingers, though. Please answer me off the list as I don't always have time to read the whole digest. Regards, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:06:43 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: out of town & off line Hello everyone- I'll be in Hong Kong and possibly southern China for business for 1 or 2 weeks. I'll be off line during that time. Thanks to everyone for the replies on the Rossetti book. I should be able to catch up with my mail after my return. Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:06:34 -0500 From: Roxy Barber Subject: 1905 accessories I'm working on a centennial project at the university I attend and need to find (locally, Kalamazoo Michigan, USA) accessories for men or women suiitable to the fall season 1905. These will be used in a case for display only. We are thinking gloves, hat etc.. The display has to do with a public meeting discussing how to attract a Normal school to our city. It is not about costume, but the accessories are an extra touch. We would appreciate any suggestions as to WHAT to look for, how to identify what is of the correct period, what NOT to use, and any ideas beyond antique stores and the local museum for sources. thank-you, thank-you! Roxy Barber x90barber11@wmich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:33:41 -0500 From: Mara Riley Subject: Hair styles for many periods Heather Meadows writes, (somewhere around Nov 2 -- I'm catching up on old e-mail): "I'm looking for sources for styling *long* hair for all the periods I re-enact in - 1560-1950. I've mostly dealt with the issue by hiding my hair before, but I'm trying to keep the look more complete - I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter somehow." Have you seen 'Henry and June'? (The actress playing) Anais Nin has below-shoulder-length hair -- reaches to the mid-shoulder-blades, I think... (when it's let down, it does look a little thin, so if you have thick hair this might not work). She puts it up into a nice, neat little figure-eight bun at the nape of her neck, and looks quite stylish in the '20s styles. (or is that '30s? It's been a while since I saw the movie.) I have also managed to get my hair to go into a little bun at the nape of my neck, but leave enough slack in my hair that it almost looks like a bob. Another period movie would be 'Chariots of Fire.' I can't remember the name of the actress that Harold Abramson dates in the movie, but she has long hair in the back. In the front, her hair is long enough to come down to her chin; I'm not sure how it's styled. Bangs of that length would be very versatile, since they're long enough to be pinned back and stay when wearing older hair styles. Since my memories of these movies are a bit on the fuzzy side, it might be worth renting the movies to have a closer look.... Corbie ------------------------------------------------------- Q: How many Vorlons does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Yes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:56:06 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Porcelain Was this the list that had a porcelain question? It was about how long porcelain was around. I found documentation; from the CD- Eyewitness History of the World. Porcelain has been around 1200yrs. During the Ning Dynisty from 1368 - 1644 it was distingushed by blue and white painted designs. In the 1500's it was exported to the middle east, Europe, and Africa. I hope this helps the person who was wanting to know. I beleive the were asking about dolls in partular. It doesn't say when dolls started being made this way. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:38:46 -0600 From: Heather Lorraine McGlaughlin Subject: Re: Hair styles for many periods > >Heather Meadows writes, (somewhere around Nov 2 -- I'm catching up on old > >e-mail): > >"I'm looking for sources for styling *long* hair > >for all the periods I re-enact in - 1560-1950. > >I've mostly dealt with the issue by hiding my hair > >before, but I'm trying to keep the look more complete - > >I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's > >when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women > >kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter > >somehow." > > Have you tried "Women's Headdress and Hairstyles (in England from AD 600 to the present day) by Georgine de Courtais? Published by BT Batsford, London, 1973. ISBN 0-7134-0858-8. I costume opera theater here at the University, as well as play in the SCA, and I think this is a great little book. Our university library had it, so you probably could get it on interlibrary loan if all else fails. Good luck!! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:49:26 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Kate Greenaway dress Thanks to all the people who responded to my question as to who Kate Greenaway is/was. Next Question???? Was there a fashion of making girls dresses similiar to her illustrations during the 1890's? The dress was not store bought. It is beautiful with a mid line u-shaped neckline (front and back) surrounded with three tears of ruffles. It has a high waistline and 3/4 length skirt. I am having the dress photographed tomorrow, drafting the pattern Wed., and making it for my daughter's Christmas dress thereafter. All of this will be on my web page after Dec. 10th. So you can go into my page and print out the pattern. THREE MORE WEEKS UNTIL THE SEMESTER ENDS & counting... Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Nov 1996 to 24 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Nov 26 10:04:00 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16647 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:02:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199611260502.AA16647@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7460; Tue, 26 Nov 96 00:01:32 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8253; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:01:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Nov 1996 to 25 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 837 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1150-1550AD 2. Coathardies for Women (2) 3. Hoping White Christmas counts as historic... 4. H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 (2) 5. Dying straw 6. Dying straw -Reply 7. UNSUSCRIBE 8. Ladies Caps 9. Dolls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:59:43 +0000 From: "J. G." Subject: 1150-1550AD Dear persons, hello to one and all, I am looking for pictures of people in costumes that are appropriate for the time period 1150-1550 AD from countries that would have been known well by france and england durring that time...(please enclose a name of the person if it is a picture of yourself or a friend) Also if anyone has patterns for such clothing that are on the computer or directions for making clothing from that period I would welcome them greatly. Thank you for your time and patience... Have a good day... Sussan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:56:56 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: Coathardies for Women I am an SCA member and have been doing 14 century costuming for some time. I have found a few good sources on the subject, and I would like to know what people think about an typical argument on construction. Several people, who are supposed to be SCA experts in that period, have told me that they used princess seaming around the bust to acheive the fit. I find that this is inconsistant, as you should have seen that construction in later period garments. I have been able to acheive the proper fit (large bust included) with a seam down the middle, with proper cutting. Does anyone have good documentation for either method? I am open to changing my mind on this if I could see real documentation. I would like to also know any good books on this period, as they are scarce. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:07:44 +0000 From: Hope Greenberg Subject: Hoping White Christmas counts as historic... Hi - I hope 1955 counts as historic enough! Even if not, I have a question that someone here can probably answer. In the Crosby/Kaye movie "White Christmas" (not "Holiday Inn" the one that originally had the song but the later version with Rosemary Cloony and Vera Ellen) the final scene features two stunning Christmas dresses. Can anyone tell me what they are made of? They don't quite look like satin--they move more like velvet but are fairly shiny. They also have some white trim that may or may not be fur and decoration that may be sequins. If anyone out there has seen the movie and is good at determining fabric over video, I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks! - Hope ------------ Hope Greenberg University of Vermont http://www.uvm.edu/~hag ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:25:24 GMT From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 > From: Lisa Leong > This may not be the one Teddy has in mind but in Jane Ashelford's _Dress > in the Age of Elizabeth I_, on p. 75 there is a picture of Arabella Stuart > (1577) and the following accompanying text: > > "It also seems likely that fashion dolls were circulating in England, for > it was a method of passing on information that was used as early as 1396 > at the French court, when records show that a tailor was paid for making a > doll's wardrobe. A direct reference to the existence of fashion dolls in > England occurs during the trial in November 1615... Fashion dolls > were probably handed down to children when they had served their purpose, > and a likely example of this use can be seen in a 1577 portrait of > Arabella Stuart, aged 23 months, which depicts her holding a very > sophisticated doll wearing a highly detailed costume of the mid 1560s." > > No mention of how they dolls were made, tho'. That's the one. I recognize the text! > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:59:04 -0500 > From: Susan Carroll-Clark > Subject: Re: Fashion dolls > > Greetings! > > I helped a friend of mine research and document (as much as she could > in a couple of weeks--she kept putting it off) the 16th century fashion > dolls for an SCA arts and sciences comp. There are only a couple of extant > examples, but there are also a couple of portraits that show 'em. The > theory is that the dolls were a way for tailors to show the latest fashions > to their customers--there is an extant letter that mentions a lady sending > one to a tailor for dressing. I'd love to hear more info on the > extant example, if anyone has it. It apparently was made of cloth, > with an embroidered face--not really "rough", although perhaps a bit > "primitive". We'd love to know, for instance, how the clothes were > attached--it was my own theory that the clothes were probably sewn right > to the doll, and the doll was not meant to be "dressed and undressed"--this > likely meant it did not have a complete set of underclothes, including > corset. (My friend's Laurel wanted her to do something more akin to a > period Barbie doll, with interchangeable clothes; my poor friend got the > doll only half-finished, with a petticoat and chemise her only clothing, > as a result...) > > It is thought that the dolls were perhaps given to children after they had > served their purpose. > > As I said, any further info would be gleefully sucked up. She had > real problems finding any scholarly sources on dolls beyond one or two; > unlike me, she's not the kind of person who knows how to dig for such sources. > > Cheers-- > Susan Carroll-Clark > sclark@chass.utoronto.ca > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:15:57 -0600 > From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" > Subject: Re: American Girls Dolls > > They also sell patterns, fairly accurate, for the various eras. My > daughter has one of their "custom" dolls, where you can choose from an > assortment of eye colors, skin tones, hair color, etc. Mary Katherine > (the doll) looks a lot like my daughter, and accompanies us to Civil War > reenactments. The construction of the doll is not quite right for the > 1860's, but we have some patterns and I can actually get Chellie to > sit and sew for 30-45 minutes at a time. Anything that can make a 7 year > old sit still for a little while and be constructive is a good thing. > > Sandy Waldrop > swaldrop@prairienet.org > > On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM wrote: > > > New Text Item: Re: Dolls > > > > Unfortunately there isn't a 16th century doll, but have any of you seen the > > American Girls dolls? There is a 1774, 1854, 1864, 1904, amd 1954 doll. They > > are accurate from the inside out, from panier, chemise, garters, cage > > crinolines, stockings, as well as dresses, and accessories. Pretty neat! > > > > Stacey > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:15:21 -0800 > From: Conrad Hodson > Subject: Re: Flame retardent solutions > > Margaret Weller here--- > Someone asked several days ago about flame retardant solutions made with > boric acid. I did not see a reply (but sometime I miss things), so I am > sending the one that I have from the Oregon State University Extension > Service > . > MAKING FABRICS FLAME RESISTANT > > Flame-retardant solutions usually cause a slight stiffening of the treated > fabric, which becomes somewhat heavier. However, these solutions cause no > appreciable change in the feel or color of the material. Treated garments > will not injure or irritate the skin. > > Treatment may lessen the fiber strength of materials when they are stored > for long periods. SOLUTION A, described in the following section, has > least effect on fiber strength. *Repeat Treatment After Each Laundering!* > > PREPARING SOLUTIONS > Chemicals can be purchased at most drug or grocery stores. Commercial > grades give as good results as more expensive pharmaceutical grades. > > Solution A > > Borax------------------7oz > Boric Acid (Granular)--3oz > Water (hot)------------2qts > > Dissolve boric acid by making a paste with a small quantity of water. Add > this and the borax to water. Stir until the solution is clear. > > Warm the solution if it becomes cloudy or jelly-like from standing. > Fabrics treated with Solution A do not flame when exposed to fire. Glow > lasts about 30 seconds. > > this solution does not appreciably weaken fabric, even after treated > fabric has been stored 6 or 8 months. > > Materials treated with it may lose their flame resistance in time. > Re-treat within a year. > > Use Solution A for garments and other household fabrics, except those made > of rayon or resin-treated cotton--sometimes called crushproof, > wrinkleproof, or wash-and-wear. (Note: one of the other solutions on the > list I have is recommended for these fabrics) > > Note: There are three other solutions listed on my handout. This is the > best all-around solution, but, as it says, not universal. If there is > interest I can enter the rest of the document for the list, or send to > interested individuals. > > Margaret Weller > email: conradh@efn.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:18:56 -0600 > From: Noelle Nicol > Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility > > Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The > fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My > memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? > > Yours, > > NSN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:15:13 -0500 > From: Sharron Fina > Subject: Doll history > > To those who are interested: > > Try the website for Ashton Drake, a major collector doll company (that > knows me all too well) http://www.ashtondrake.com/kitchen.html and click > on history. It gives a thumbnail history of dolls, their uses and > material make-up over the centuries. > > Sharron Fina > sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu > Department of Neuroscience > University of Pennsylvania > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:54:03 -0800 > From: "R.L. Shep" > Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility > > Noelle Nicol wrote: > > > > Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The > > fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My > > memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? > > > > Yours, > > > > NSN > > Aside from anything else (I, forgive me, do not like Jane Austen, > neither in print or in film) George (later IV) became Regent in 1811 > (because George III was visiably mad) and was Regent until 1820 when he > became King in his own right = George IV. The Regency period can said > to extend a few years on either side of that but: 1780... I think not. > We are talking about Jane Austen and England not Josephine and France. > Fashions at that time (for men) were set by George and Beau Brummel. > The women's clothes may reflect French fashions (when do they not?) but > early 19th Century not 18th Century. > > :-))))) > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:08:41 +1100 > From: Greg & Jocelyn House > Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility > > >Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Regency *was* late 18th cent. ?? The > >fashion was insopired by Josephine Bonaparte while Napolean ruled France. My > >memory may be failing me, but I thought that was around 1780-ish? > > > >Yours, > > > >NSN > > Actually the French Revolution didn't take place until 1789. Then during > the ninties there was the rule of the Committee for Public Safety and after > that Napoleon came on the scene in the late nineties. I believe his first > successful campaign was in 1797. Considering that his defeat at Waterloo > took place in 1815, the majority of his time was in the early nineteenth > century. > > As far as the dress of this time goes I seem to remember hearing (though I > can't vouch for the veracity of this) that the French at the time were > basing their designs on those of Ancient Rome (it is said that Napoleon saw > himself as the successor of the Roman Emperors) and as a consequence the > English based theirs on that of Ancient Greece. > > Jocelyn House > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:21:15 +0000 > From: Leslie H > Subject: What century did you say this is? > > Two ideas about the century problem. > > 1. Appalling as it may be, some people are living entirely in the > now (or, more incomprehensibly, in the future) and really have no > grasp of the correct sequencing. Many of them work for the press. > SOME of them are probably correcting what they think are errors in > the submitted reviews of the film. Go ahead, be paranoid about this. > I am. > > 2. The offenders may be afflicted with whatever learning disability > it is that makes this kind of calculating difficult. For you, it may > not be a calculation. However, I have to stop and reason it out > EVERY TIME. My brain just can't associate the pairs; 1800s equals > nineteenth centery, etc. Actually, people with learning disabilities > are starting to outnumber those without (pretty soon we'll have to > have special classes for the normally abled!?) and some of them > just won't remember to struggle with it. > > {Hey Erin--I can't wait to start on the next play. Remember > to get your grommet setter back from the studio--you'll have to ask me > where it is (and then I'll have to find it).} > > Larisa > or > Leslie > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:55:35 -0700 > From: Christine Gilbreath > Subject: Re: Linen thread > > Hi > > Linen thread is also used in book binding, lace making and leather > working. You might follow those leads to find it also. > > Here's what I found on the web on a quick search. > > Fiber & Pulp > > P.O. Box 9 > Jackson, Wyoming 83001 > > Tel: (307) 734-2599 > E-mail: fiberpulp@aol.com > http://www.wyoming. com/~hanson/fiberpulp.shl > > Fiber & Pulp sells binding supplies such as linen thread and tape, PVA, > and bone folders, and has a large selection of Japanese, Thai, Indian, > and various other papers. They also offer workshops of many kinds, which > include everything from how to make a portfolio, album, or piano hinge > book to rubber stamping. > **** > > http://www.uidaho.edu/~paulineb/suppliers.html > > Lots of bookmaking suppliers > > **** > > http://www.arachne.com/lace_sources.us.html > > Lace and tatting supplies > > **** > > Christy > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:01:15 EST > From: "Sandra J. Westergren" <74133.704@COMPUSERVE.COM> > Subject: dolls > > Greetings > > In the SCA I made a stuffed doll for an auction. It was also entered in > the Pennsic A&S Champions point at Pennsic 19. Althought the head was really a > rabbit's (long story there), the body was stuffed cotton, about 20" tall, and it > was dressed from the skin out in Elizabethan. Stockings, garters, chemise, > boned corset, bumroll, reed hoop skirt, petticoats, beaded forepart, pearled > cartridge pleated overskirt, pearled boned bodice, tied in sleeves, partlet, > neck and wrist ruffs. jewelry, girder with pomander, pillbox hat, feather fan. > It was a joy to do and I truely was sad to give it up. But. . . . > Except for the composition of the body and head, it was an elaborate > period fashion doll. > From doing research at that time I discovered the following: > today's toys often began as yesterday's fashion dolls > fashion dolls date from the 1400's > bodies were usually primitive (wood, clay, rags, leather bags filled with bran > or sawdust) bodice was conical > as was the skirt (no legs) > a 1567 publication notes a procedure for molding dolls using paper pulp, sawdust > and arsenic and pressing > it into hollow moulds. As of 1564, this was being shipped from Germany > to England and France > (sounds similier to paper mache) > a doll in the Royal Armoury Collection in Stockholm, 1590, has a body of wire > armature covered in silk thread > Real hair is braided and attached to the head. The face is embroidered. > one woodcut, probably late 16th or early 17th by the look of the fashions, shows > a woman and child at a toy > merchants booth, which features _lots_ of dolls > > I believe a reference earlier was to a portrait from Ashleford's 'Dress > in the Age of Elizabeth I' showing a little girl, Arabella Stuart dated 1577, > holding a wonderful doll. The costume on the doll is accurate. The head shows > great detail, although no indication of materials used. > > Sorry this got long. If anyone wishes references from my bibligraphy, > please contact me. > > Trying to find time to do more dolls. . . . . . > Sandy Westergren > Minneapolis Minnesota > SCA - Mistress Cassandra of the Western Green > Nordskogen - Northshield - Middle > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:18:01 -0500 > From: Rebecca Marler > Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility > > Publishing dates: > _Pride and Prejudice_ first offered to the publisher under the title _First > Impression_ in November 1797; > > _Sense and Sensibility_, documentation shows that it was written in its > earliest form in 1795 through letters, more of a novel in 1797; > > _Northanger Abbey_, written under the title _Susan_, from 1798-9 and sold to > the publisher in 1803, not printed until a year before the author's death. > > R > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:22:57 -0500 > From: COakley@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: Dolls > > I don't believe I've seen any garbed Barbies at events hereabouts (Illinois), > but I am aware of a few stuffed animals with excellent wardrobes, including a > family of Wild Thing dolls with both Viking and 13th-c. heraldic garb. > (Lord Wild also owns quite an arsenal of miniature weapons.) Hardly > "Period," but cute! :)> > Kate Oakley > > ------------------------------ > > End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 > **************************************************** > Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:26:49 GMT From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Nov 1996 to 21 Nov 1996 SORRY! I posted a reply without deleting the rest of the text I was quoting from. It means I'll have reposted most of a digest! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:58:03 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Dying straw I've got a straw hat I'd love to dye. I've heard you can use RIT to dye straw but haven't found any info on how to do it. Does anyone know how to do this? Thanks in advance... Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:51:04 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: Coathardies for Women As several of you have asked. I do French costuming only. Actually, when I was deciding to do English or French if found one great distinction between the two that may be of some interest. The English tended to put slits (like pockets) in their surcoats to have access to the things they carry on their belts, (i.e. purse, scissors). The French did not carry things with them in that manner, considering that a job for serverants. I decided I carried enough around during the week. Thought Someone might find that interesting. Thanks! Jane Bretz SCA: Beatrice d'Angoueme ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:37:37 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: Dying straw -Reply I would not dye straw with Rit dye. A friend of mine dyed some straw for doing peasent type embrodery on Elizabethen costuming. The hot water can break down the straw too much. As this is also a modern constructed hat, it is reasonable that some heat sensitive glue was used to construct it. I would recommend a dye that is cold water set from an art supply. Also, you may be able to paint it with some childrens water color and spray it with a non shiny setting spray. Though if the straw was waxed you may have a hard time. Jane Bretz >>> Loren Dearborn 11/25/96 12:58pm >>> I've got a straw hat I'd love to dye. I've heard you can use RIT to dye straw but haven't found any info on how to do it. Does anyone know how to do this? Thanks in advance... Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:14:25 -0800 From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: UNSUSCRIBE unsuscribe t 12:01 AM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >There are 7 messages totalling 195 lines in this issue. > >Topics of the day: > > 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 > 2. out of town & off line > 3. 1905 accessories > 4. Hair styles for many periods (2) > 5. Porcelain > 6. Kate Greenaway dress > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:26:58 -0500 >From: Lisa Bauer >Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 > >Hi H-costumers, > >I am in the position finally, of having some extra dough, and would like to >have a costume made for me. Does anyone know if the costumers (actual >sempstering, foundation, millinery, and cobblery) of say, Merchant Ivory or >the like, do non-movie work? I'm not talking about renting or buying >something already made, but having it made. Otherwise, if there are any >professional period seamstress out there in h-costume land who could help me >out, drop me a line. Access to period silks, laces, and fabrics, shoes, and >accessories (non-vintage) is a plus. I'm in Southern California, West LA to >be exact. >I want something very historically accurate, from the skin out. My design. I >want chemise, corset, corset cover, hoop/crinoline, petticoats, skirt, >bodice, mantle, hat/bonnet. Period is mid-Victorian. Does not have to be >hand-sewn, except where/if necessary. I have all the books, ideas, sketches, >etc. but don't have the sewing time (or really inclination, *gasp*) anymore >to do it myself. I'm also thinking about something Regency as well. >In addition, does anyone have a good source for real kid gloves with buttons >in various colors? Not the ones with really skinny fingers, though. >Please answer me off the list as I don't always have time to read the whole >digest. >Regards, >Lisa > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:06:43 -0800 >From: Gwyn Carnegie >Subject: out of town & off line > >Hello everyone- > >I'll be in Hong Kong and possibly southern China for business for 1 or 2 >weeks. I'll be off line during that time. > > Thanks to everyone for the replies on the Rossetti book. I should be able >to catch up with my mail after my return. > > >Gwyn Carnegie > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:06:34 -0500 >From: Roxy Barber >Subject: 1905 accessories > >I'm working on a centennial project at the university I attend and need to >find (locally, Kalamazoo Michigan, USA) accessories for men or women >suiitable to the fall season 1905. These will be used in a case for display >only. We are thinking gloves, hat etc.. The display has to do with a public >meeting discussing how to attract a Normal school to our city. It is not >about costume, but the accessories are an extra touch. We would appreciate >any suggestions as to WHAT to look for, how to identify what is of the >correct period, what NOT to use, and any ideas beyond antique stores >and the local museum for sources. > >thank-you, thank-you! > >Roxy Barber >x90barber11@wmich.edu > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:33:41 -0500 >From: Mara Riley >Subject: Hair styles for many periods > >Heather Meadows writes, (somewhere around Nov 2 -- I'm catching up on old >e-mail): >"I'm looking for sources for styling *long* hair >for all the periods I re-enact in - 1560-1950. >I've mostly dealt with the issue by hiding my hair >before, but I'm trying to keep the look more complete - >I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's >when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women >kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter >somehow." > >Have you seen 'Henry and June'? (The actress playing) Anais Nin has >below-shoulder-length hair -- reaches to the mid-shoulder-blades, I >think... (when it's let down, it does look a little thin, so if you have >thick hair this might not work). She puts it up into a nice, neat little >figure-eight bun at the nape of her neck, and looks quite stylish in the >'20s styles. (or is that '30s? It's been a while since I saw the movie.) > >I have also managed to get my hair to go into a little bun at the nape of >my neck, but leave enough slack in my hair that it almost looks like a bob. > >Another period movie would be 'Chariots of Fire.' I can't remember the >name of the actress that Harold Abramson dates in the movie, but she has >long hair in the back. In the front, her hair is long enough to come down >to her chin; I'm not sure how it's styled. Bangs of that length would be >very versatile, since they're long enough to be pinned back and stay when >wearing older hair styles. > >Since my memories of these movies are a bit on the fuzzy side, it might be >worth renting the movies to have a closer look.... > >Corbie > >------------------------------------------------------- >Q: How many Vorlons does it take to change a lightbulb? >A: Yes. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:56:06 -0500 >From: Kirk Albrecht M311 >Subject: Porcelain > >Was this the list that had a porcelain question? It was about how long >porcelain was around. >I found documentation; from the CD- Eyewitness History of the World. >Porcelain has been around 1200yrs. During the Ning Dynisty from 1368 - 1644 >it was distingushed by blue and white painted designs. In the 1500's it was >exported to the middle east, Europe, and Africa. >I hope this helps the person who was wanting to know. I beleive the were >asking about dolls in partular. It doesn't say when dolls started being made >this way. >Kelly Albrecht >m311@aol.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:38:46 -0600 >From: Heather Lorraine McGlaughlin >Subject: Re: Hair styles for many periods > >> >Heather Meadows writes, (somewhere around Nov 2 -- I'm catching up on old >> >e-mail): >> >"I'm looking for sources for styling *long* hair >> >for all the periods I re-enact in - 1560-1950. >> >I've mostly dealt with the issue by hiding my hair >> >before, but I'm trying to keep the look more complete - >> >I'm especially having a hard time with the 1920's - 50's >> >when shorter hair was fashionable... I *know* some women >> >kept their hair full length and just made it look shorter >> >somehow." >> > > >Have you tried "Women's Headdress and Hairstyles (in England from AD 600 >to the present day) by Georgine de Courtais? Published by BT Batsford, >London, 1973. ISBN 0-7134-0858-8. I costume opera theater here at the >University, as well as play in the SCA, and I think this is a great little >book. Our university library had it, so you probably could get it on >interlibrary loan if all else fails. > > >Good luck!! > > >Heather > > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:49:26 -0500 >From: "Penny E. Ladnier" >Subject: Kate Greenaway dress > >Thanks to all the people who responded to my question as to who Kate >Greenaway is/was. > >Next Question???? >Was there a fashion of making girls dresses similiar to her illustrations >during the 1890's? The dress was not store bought. It is beautiful with a >mid line u-shaped neckline (front and back) surrounded with three tears of >ruffles. It has a high waistline and 3/4 length skirt. > >I am having the dress photographed tomorrow, drafting the pattern Wed., and >making it for my daughter's Christmas dress thereafter. All of this will be >on my web page after >Dec. 10th. So you can go into my page and print out the pattern. > >THREE MORE WEEKS UNTIL THE SEMESTER ENDS & counting... >Penny > > > >Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University >s0peladn@erols.com >http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 >member: >Costume Society of America >American Fashion Council >Association for Information Systems Professionals > >------------------------------ > >End of H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Nov 1996 to 24 Nov 1996 >**************************************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:36:15 -0800 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Ladies Caps I am looking for information on those little lacy caps that ladies wore in the 1850's-60's. 1. Who would have worn them? Age? Social Status? 2. When would they have been worn? 3. Where would they have been worn? 4. Decorations: a lot? a little? what types? Thanks, Joan unicorn@calweb.com http://www.calweb.com/~unicorn/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:10:35 -0600 From: ches Subject: Re: Dolls I found a Victorian doll pattern 2 years ago and decided to make the pattern once my baby girl could keep track of it. She loves it! I put a very soft copper wire inside the arms and legs so that she could mimic the way we walk, etc. It was very easy to make. Basically, a bodice with sleeves enclosed and a pair of pants enclosed, the neck and head however did not work out as the pattern suggested so I did a silhouette of my daughter's profile and made the face in two pieces, the sides of the head and the back of the head adding length for the neck. Ciao Ches ---------- : From: CBecht@LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU : To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME : Subject: Re: Dolls : Date: Tuesday, November 19, 1996 2:51 PM : : Carol asked: : : Some friends have made cloth dolls for their children to play : with at events. Has anyone on the list done this, too? ..... ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Nov 1996 to 25 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Nov 27 12:06:02 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA27748 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:03:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199611270503.AA27748@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9615; Wed, 27 Nov 96 00:01:24 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9807; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:01:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Nov 1996 to 26 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 149 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. UNSUSCRIBE (2) 2. cotehardies 3. Linens 4. REMINDER! 5. Victorian Girl's Dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:02:43 -0800 From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: UNSUSCRIBE UNSUSCRIBE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:38:29 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: cotehardies Greetings! I don't think there was "one true pattern" for the cotehardie/fitted gown/ whatever. Princess seams are in fact quite period, although they tend to be seen on the slightly later cotehardies in the fifteenth century; the head of the curved seam should end at the shoulder rather than in the armscye like most modern Princess seams. (I wish I'd saved the citation for the specific picture that shows this--it does exist). There are also two other possible scenarios: First, that the dress was made essentially similar to earlier dresses, using an essentially straight-cut body with inserted triangular gores. The shirt in Burnham's _Cut my Cote_ shows this treatment--the gores could be inserted in the sides and at centre front and back. The body of the dress is then shaped to the wearer by pulling it as tight as possible, using the bias stretch to achieve fit. The second documentable style I have seen is the Herjolfness gored dress--once again, gores are used, but they are inserted at the *side* front and side back, and they also contain strips of fabric at the top of each gore which go into the body of the dress. This is indubitably a 14th century dress--whether it should be rightly called a "cotehardie" is debatable, but it might give a hint as to construction. Fourteenth century enthusiasts will likely debate loudly as to which of these constructions is "correct". I happen to think that all of them are possible, with the "stretch and gore" style likely to be the earliest since it is most closely related to the styles worn just before the "cotehardie". Finally, I should mention Stella Mary Newton's _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_. If you haven't read it....do so ASAP! There's a lot of good pictoral evidence in there, and tons of stuff on clothing and the way it was worn.... Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:11:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Linens For those of you struggling to find good, fine linens at reasonable prices you may like to contact Mr. Ali of Herts Fabrics. He stocks a huge range of linens of most weights in various colours and some damasks etc. The prices are 'very reasonable' by which I mean 'cheap' which should make them a reasonable option for those of you across the water, even with shipping costs. The range includes fabrics suitable for shifts, shirts, caps, linings, dresses, bags, gambesons ... you name it. He is Mr. Ali Herts Fabrics 11, Brickfield Hatfield Herts AL10 8TW England Tel 01707 265815 (sorry - I don't know how to access that from abroad!) (The usual rider applies - I have no financial interest in the company but didn't want you to miss out. Brits please excuse me preaching to the converted!) I hope you find this useful, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:46:51 -0800 From: The Polsons Subject: REMINDER! Folks, can we PLEASE be more careful, both about deleting the remainder of the list when only replying to a bit of it, and in not quoting a big post in its entirety when replying?? I've got far, far too much other stuff to read and deal with to mess about with deleting/ignoring/skimming by this carelessness!!!!!! I really don't want to have to unsubscribe, but if this keeps up, I'll have to. 8-( THANK YOU for trying harder! ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:27:19 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Victorian Girl's Dress Penny E. Ladnier wrote: > >I took a pattern today from a Kate Greenaway 1890's girl's dress today. Who >is Kate Greenaway? Kate Greenaway was an immensely popular author of children's books in the late 19th Cent. It has been far more years than I want to count since I had my last "kiddy lit." class in library school, so many of the fine details are lost, but as I recall, her most famous book was an alphabet book called _A is for Apple". The books were filled with children in "old fashioned clothing." They were so charming a fad for dressing children like the children in her books was created in the 1890's. I was recently reminded of these facts when I was on a project to help an open air historical museum near Rockton, Ont. organize and date some of their clothing collection. They have a "Kate Greenaway" dress there. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:34:16 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_NOTES__DIRECTORY.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re: UNSUSCRIBE New Text Item: Re: UNSUSCRIBE Why am I getting this message? I don't wish to unsubscribe. And I haven't gotten any messages since yesterday. What's going on? Stacey ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Nov 1996 to 26 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Nov 28 14:57:19 1996 Received: from mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08018 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:19:08 +0100 Received: from BROWNVM.brown.edu by mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (PP); Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:18:36 +0100 Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1993; Thu, 28 Nov 96 00:01:22 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2196; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:01:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Nov 1996 to 27 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Message-Id: <"mailgzrz.T.233:28.11.96.05.18.47"@TU-Berlin.DE> Status: O There are 8 messages totalling 260 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. REMINDER! (2) 2. Hoping White Christmas counts as historic... 3. cotehardies 4. cotehardies (another question) 5. musty smells in wood 6. Cotehardies 7. The Utimate Hat Box ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:05:49 GMT From: TEDDY Subject: Re: REMINDER! > From: The Polsons > Subject: REMINDER! > > Folks, can we PLEASE be more careful, both about deleting the remainder of > the list when only replying to a bit of it, and in not quoting a big post > in its entirety when replying?? I've got far, far too much other stuff to > read and deal with to mess about with deleting/ignoring/skimming by this > carelessness!!!!!! Guilty as charged. Sorry. I realized what I'd done the instant I hit the wrong key, by which point it was too late! I sent an appology immediatley afterwards - it was about the only thing I could do under the circumstances.... Does anyone out there have any idea if this sort of thing can be stopped once "sent"? I know our system sometimes doesn't send external mail messages instantaneously, I've done timed tests with firends, but I wouldn't know how to go about heading off something sent in error before it gets sent out! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:05:43 -0500 From: Sue & Ted Subject: Re: REMINDER! Teddy wrote: > Sorry. I realized what I'd done the instant I hit the wrong key, by > which point it was too late! I sent an appology immediatley > afterwards - it was about the only thing I could do under the > circumstances.... > Does anyone out there have any idea if this sort of thing can be > stopped once "sent"? If you have Netscape mail, there is a stop button that stops the transaction. You would have to hit it quickly before the server "grabs" the message. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:29:25 -0600 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Hoping White Christmas counts as historic... >In the Crosby/Kaye movie "White >Christmas" (not "Holiday Inn" the one that originally had the song but >the later version with Rosemary Cloony and Vera Ellen) the final scene >features two stunning Christmas dresses. Can anyone tell me what they >are made of? >They don't quite look like satin--they move more like velvet but are >fairly shiny. They also have some white trim that may or may not be fur >and decoration that may be sequins. I just looked at the video last night. The material is not velvet. You can tell by contrasting it with the Bing's costume which IS velvet. It looks to me like a very heavy weight satin. It has a satin finish if you look at the closeups of the women. You are right about the movement though. The skirt does move like a heavier-weight material. I thought it might be satin with a taffeta lining to give it some stiffness (and of course all of the crinolines to help hold it out). The white trim did look like fur. And the decorations are sequins in a starburst pattern. Probably red sequins but maybe some clear ones. It also seemed to me that the part of the skirt under the white trim may have been a separate skirt. It looked like it was a different shade of red than the bodice & the upper part of the skirt. (Then again, that may just have been a problem with the video copy I was watching.) Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:35:43 -0600 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Re: cotehardies > >I don't think there was "one true pattern" for the cotehardie/fitted gown/ >whatever. Princess seams... I don't know from Princess seams, but I assume that, because of the odd piecing shape of the side panels of the Herjolfsnes no. 38 (woman's dress) and no.41 (argueably a man's tunic) that fitted torso gored "dresses" were, in fact, known in the Medieval Period. >...The second documentable style I have seen is the Herjolfness gored >dress--once again, gores are used, but they are inserted at the *side* front >and side back, and they also contain strips of fabric at the top of each >gore which go into the body of the dress. Begging your pardon, ma'am, but *which* Herjolfsnes gored dress? My assumption is that you are referring to "no.38", which is one of the most commonly shown in costuming materials. But if so, I am not certain what you mean by "strips of fabric", unless you are referring to the tops of the side panels. In both the "Man's" and "Woman's" (gender based as much on bone size versus clothing size, as anything else acording to Norlund, 1924) these side panels appear to be a single piece each. There is another example, the number escapes me, unforunately, that clearly shows a single side panel from arm pit to hemline. Curiously this panel is divided down the middle by a false seam, to give the impression of being multiple pieces (this thing about false seams doesn't appear to be a strictly limited thing, either, although I'm not sure what it tells us for the general styles of Europe. Based on these, and the few other finds, such as the Bockstenman, I think that there are number of basic "styles", with each of those broken down by the individual clothier. So yes, I agree, there is no "one way". Marc Carlson LIB_IMC@CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:36:29 -0800 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: cotehardies (another question) I've been reading this thread with interest as I've been going through my books reading everything they can offer on cotehardies thinking I'd like to make one for court garb. Two questions.... What does one wear under a cotehardie (historically speaking)? And what types of material were they made out of? (I've seen many made out of various cottons, but I'm interested in something spiffier for court.) Elspeth ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby ladybug@falkor.neverending.webnexus.com http://falkor.neverending.webnexus.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:45:48 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: musty smells in wood Chantal -- The smell has probably permeated the wood, even if the original cause is now gone. I had the same problem with an old treadle sewing machine cabinet. However, if I had a lovely armoire with that problem, I would probably line it with ceder boards, sold at lumber yards and some hardware stores for lining closets. Then you'd have some moth protection and the cedar smell might overpower the must. You might want to seal the outside with several coats of polyurethane varnish, if you have not already done so. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ---------------- > >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:41:04 -0500 >From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Chantal_M._P=E9court=22?=" >Subject: Musty smells > >I am not sure if this is the proper place to ask, but since it does >relate to clothing here goes. > I have an old clothing closet ( the kind that is free standing >and can be moved) from my grandmother. It was stored in her basement for >many years. Unfortunatly the basement was always damp and the clothing >closet has picked up a musty smell. When I got this I stripped off the ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 02:44:59 GMT From: Megan Hargreaves Subject: Cotehardies Unless I am much mistaken, they wore linen chemises. And of course an under dress that was made of the same as the outer garment. Sabine Aleyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:16:27 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: The Utimate Hat Box I collect vintage hats (as well as clothes and accessories). About the only place I'm able to buy usable hat boxes is the closet accessory supplier Hold Everything. (I think most vintage hat boxes are too fragile for use.) However, they usually sell hat boxes in sets of three, and the two smaller sizes are not suitable for many hat styles (especially large-brimmed Edwardian hats, which I'm very fond of). But this year's Hold Everything Christmas catalog includes a really great hat hox. It is almost exactly like a vintage hat box I own, which I've wanted duplicates of for years. It's covered in tan leather and very sturdy, like luggage rather than the lightweight cardboard boxes (which they also sell). It is 18" in diameter but has one flat side so you can set it down, and a strong leather-covered handle. The inside is lined with cloth and there's a cloth bag inside the lid to put small items in. I bought one and it is so great I ordered two more. You can only buy this style from the Hold Everything catalog (which they will send free), not their store. Their address and phone are: Hold Everything Mail Order Department PO Box 7807 San Francisco, CA 94120-7807 (800) 421-2264 Usual disclaimer: I have no connection with Hold Everything or this product, other than as a customer. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm (check out our events page for a new announcement of a Victorian New Year's Eve ball) Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Nov 1996 to 27 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Nov 29 10:16:13 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16392 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:01:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199611290501.AA16392@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2450; Fri, 29 Nov 96 00:00:24 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5695; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:00:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:00:22 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Nov 1996 to 28 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 317 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Utimate Hat Box 2. 3. Woad Recipie 4. Cotehardies (3) 5. Fantasy Costume List 6. Dolls at events ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 01:19:11 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: The Utimate Hat Box At 07:16 PM 11/27/96 -0800, you wrote: >I collect vintage hats (as well as clothes and accessories). About the >only place I'm able to buy usable hat boxes is the closet accessory >supplier Hold Everything. (I think most vintage hat boxes are >too fragile for use.) However, they usually sell hat boxes in sets of >three, and the two smaller sizes are not suitable for many hat styles >(especially large-brimmed Edwardian hats, which I'm very fond of). > Thanks for posting the info. I started collecting hat boxes this past summer. You might what to check museums for the hat boxes that they do not want. Last summer when working at the Valentine, I worked on an extensive hat collection. When I finished the collection, the curator told me to throw the boxes away. I ask could I have them, so started my collection. The curator's explanation for throwing them out was she couldn't keep ALL the hat boxes. It makes sense or she wouldn't have room for the costumes. So now she saves the hat boxes for me. Thanks again, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:09:14 -0800 From: Cin Subject: --=====================_849208097==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm finally catching up on old h-costume digests. Someone asked about cloth of Gold. Here's a pointer to books & a museum with the oldest piece I've seen. Enjoy your holidays! -=-=-=- --=====================_849208097==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CLOTH" For all those who made suggestions about museums of Spain & Greece many thanks! Much loot was admired, garments gawked at and books were purchased and mailed. It's like Hannuka or Christmas every day. I highly recommend _The Prado_ for museum catalogs; it has high quality pictures on every page. Better print values than the Met and excellent color matching to the original paintings. For anyone interested in ancient Greece, especially Macedonia in the 4th c BC, the books _Greek Civilization_ and _Vergina_, both available from the Archeological Museum in Thessaloniki are excellent. _Vergina_ was written by Dr. M. Andronicous, the principle archeologist for the 15 year dig. Thessaloniki has the oldest pieces of decorative cloth that I have ever seen. (I'm not counting mummy wrappings.) They were found in the neighboring tomb to the one called "Philip of Macedon's Tomb". They are 2 (formerly) matching wool and gold tabby weave sections in the shape of a trapezoid. (May be jacquard, but I couldnt look at the reverse side to find out.) The pattern is quite complex and the dye is surprisingly rich. It's a very deep purple, and no, I dont know what dyestuff was used. Cocineal? (Lets call it Crayola Violet.) Anyway, the pieces were apparently part of a the dead woman's funeral offerings and were probably even placed on the pyre for a short time. Her bones were then placed in a gold coffer, covered by the cloth of gold, the gold box was placed in an elaborate sarcophagus and the tomb sealed. I just cant gush enough about the Thessaloniki Archeological. Greece has done a fantastic job opening this new museum. The exhibit presentations are very high quality. (Makes the older parts of the Smithsonian look dowdy.) Highly recommended! --=====================_849208097==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --cin home email: cin@netuser.com office email: cynthia_barnes@ptltd.com w. 408.452.6895 "Statesmanship largely consists of preventing competing nations from expressing their true feelings in the most sincere way possible. Miss Manners is only suggesting that they stop kissing other statesmen altogether -- that they practice safe protocol." --Miss Manners, _Miss Manners Rescues Civilization_, 1996. --=====================_849208097==_-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:59:26 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Woad Recipie Hello H-Costume! I am looking for a successful woad with urine (or uric acid) recipie that is done the period fermenting way. I tried an indigo fermentation bath with uric acid as described in Ida Grae and was very dissapointed. It called for madder root to be included which didn't sound right to me at the time but I did it anyway. Needless to say, it didn't come out right. I would like to get woad and try a fermentation bath with it instead. Along with this, if anyone has a source for woad seeds, please, please let me know. I have the space to grow them but the seed catalogs I have sent away for don't include woad. Thanks in advance!! Rose :~> P.S. For anyone who is looking for a really fabulous gold, try Italian Alder cones with alum. Excellant gold color!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:30:43 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Cotehardies Greetings! The Herjolfness dress I'm talking about I believe is the one you mention, Marc. I was trying to figure out the way to describe the way the gores work--they're not just simple triangular gores that most people might have seen, but rather look a bit like this: | | | | | | | | / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ --------------- There are (I'm working from memory, so excuse the sloppy numbers) I believe two of these each at side right, side left, back side right and back side left. The "strips" at the top fit the the garment through the torso, while the triangular gore flares out at the hip. These garments have a characteristic drape which resembles a princess cut somewhat and is quite distinctive when you look for it. And it is, as I mentioned, _definitely_ a period cut. Hope this helps! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:43:23 -0800 From: David & Anita Pirkle Subject: Fantasy Costume List Hope I'm sending this correctly, as I'm just coming out of lurk mode... Someone mentioned a fantasy costume list. When I went looking for a costuming list, this was the only one I could find. What's the address for the fantasy costume list? Anita ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:41:54 +1000 From: Sue Dancer Subject: Re: Dolls at events >: Carol asked: >: >: Some friends have made cloth dolls for their children to play >: with at events. Has anyone on the list done this, too? ..... Will be doing this for next year. I will not be making 'period' accurate dolls but more of a rag doll style with period dress. These will be used at events to keep the children in my group amused and at schools during the Life classes to show what people wore. Sue Dancer Mark & Sue NetMark Consultancies Pty. Ltd. Dancer. mdancer@thehub.com.au Can your PC boot from a CD-ROM? Macintosh can. These comments and questions are solely my doing. My company, colleagues, family, neighbors, gender, sex, race, creed, national origin, medieval reenactment group... bear no responsibility for the accuracy thereof. Further, I apologize in advance and retract any part of this email that in any way offends anyone, anyone's sensibilities, ancestors, cars, favorite ice cream, or points of view. This communique may add to your store of knowledge. It may not. Proceed at your own risk. (Slightly modified from an original by Ed Long). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:33:56 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Chantal_M._P=E9court=22?=" Subject: Cotehardies The wearing and proper making of cotehardies is an interesting topic. I have a book called Daily Life in Chaucer's England that has some patterns from actual digs from the late 1300's and early 1400's, when Chaucer lived. According to this reference, what we call the cotehardie was called a kirtle and was made not using the princess seamed dress, but side gores and front gores that shaped the back and front pieces into a tight fitting dress that got tighter as buttons were introduced. This books also states that the openings were almost always at the front or side and hardly ever the back. The buttons would be most numerous at points of pull and less numerous where the dress had to pull less. What was worn under this kirtle was another kirtle, formed basically the same way. If we jump ahead a few years, about 100 or so, we can get some interesting ideas of how the dresses were made as the houppeland area began. In many art books there are painting os women, mainly the Virgin and Mary Magdalen wearing dresses very similar to cotehardies but the cut is very different. You can tell because the seams are actually painted. The exact title of the books escapes me at the moment but there are four paintings that come to mind to support this princess seam construction not evidenced in earlier pieces. One very clearly shows the front seams and another the back. The third is a picture of Bathsheba exiting her bath, her servantis wearing a tight fitting dress with the hem tucked up. The underdress is a long linen shirt like garment that ends just below the knees, a ruffle like skirt is attached to this so that the underdress reaches to her ankles. It is theorized that this ruffle was there because hems become so frayed with wear that rather than replacing the entire under dress they ripped off the ruffle and added a new one. If anyone is interested I can get the exact reference. I am /very/ curious to know 1. Are there archeological finds that can show us how the clothing progressed from the side gored kirtle to the princess seamed dress 2. How these dresses were cut out and made, how they were fastened and how the false sleeves were attached. Anyone know? Chantal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " The truth is out there" -X Files " Be sure you want to know what lies behind the doors of truth before you open them.." -me " Ask only the questions for which you are ready to hear the answers." -me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:41:20 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Chantal_M._P=E9court=22?=" Subject: Re: Cotehardies >The Herjolfness dress I'm talking about I believe is the one you mention, >Marc. > > | | > | | > | | > | | > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > --------------- The gores at the side, according to many texts I have seen on the matter ( not that they are 100% correct either), are shaped a bit differently than this. | | | | | | | | / | / | / | / | / | / | --------------- There are from 4 to 8 on each side, hence the nick name 8 gored dress etc. They are attached straight edge to not straight edge ( or bias to not bias) which cause the drape. These gores form the bottom of the arm hole. There is also one triangular gore in the front and back to add more fullness to the skirt. The book, Daily Life in Chaucer's England has detailed diagrams as well as intrcutions on making these dresses. Having constructed these dresses a few times, I can say that the drape is not very similar to the princess seamed dresses of the latter part of the 15th century ( 1480 or so). How and why the cut changed I don't know, but would love to find out. If you would like some photo copies of the pages, let me know Chantal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " The truth is out there" -X Files " Be sure you want to know what lies behind the doors of truth before you open them.." -me " Ask only the questions for which you are ready to hear the answers." -me ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Nov 1996 to 28 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 10:27:56 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA22704 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:02:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199611300502.AA22704@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3890; Sat, 30 Nov 96 00:00:38 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9170; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:00:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Nov 1996 to 29 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 377 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. More on cotehardies 2. Fantasy Costume List 3. Cotehardies (3) 4. Ladies Caps 5. The dress of fisherfolk 6. Nalbinding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:17:30 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: More on cotehardies Greetings! Thanks for the better picture; I forgot that there's a drawing of that particular dress in _Daily Life in Chaucer's England_ (I helped write a very remote ancestor of this book as a preparatory pamphlet for a Chaucerian event--look for me in the credits at the front!). For those of you who are interested, the authors are Will McLean and Jeff Singman and it's put out by Greenwood press. Pricey, but worth it! Back to the topic at hand. "Kirtle" is probably a better word for at least the underdress. Definitely have a look at Stella Mary Newton's _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ for a true definition of cotehardie (or cote hardi)--the term is period and was used to describe a particular garment. (I'm a bit out of my league in this field, since my own area of research is the 13th century, and I'm only interested in the fourteenth century because it's what's next :-) The best argument for the more traditionally gored closefitting garment (as opposed to the 10 gore Herjolfness dress) has been presented by Verna Rutz and Robin Netherton (are you lurking anywhere on this list, ladies?) I have seen their dresses and they look and fit like those in paintings. As I have said, these are a logical evolution from the gowns in the period I study, and may represent an earlier form of the garment. Another friend of mine (known in the SCA as Sarra Graeme) is not convinced that the ten-gored dress is what should be called a "cotehardie", although it's definitely a period dress. Her argument is that the dresses labeled _cotehardie_ often has a different neckline than the Herjolfness dress--more straight across than scooped. I think McLean and Singman's choice of the word "kirtle" for this dress reflects the fact that no one's really sure if that dress is "really" a true cotehardie. Also someone else once pointed out to me that the true cotehardie is an overgown, often with sleeves to the elbows rather than all the way to the wrists, with the buttoned sleeves of the kirtle showing through underneath (although I do know of cases where it's definitely all one sleeve. One thing this points out to me is that many SCA folk tend to call any closefitting 14th century dress a "cotehardie". This is probably incorrect. We shouldn't be surprised, then, that there are different ways to make a 14th century dresss. (Incidentally, for my collection, does anyone have any further pictures of people wearing dresses that seem to resemble and hang like the ten-gore dress?) Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:17:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Re: Fantasy Costume List Subject: Re: Cotehardies > > I am /very/ curious to know 1. Are there archeological finds that can show > us how the clothing progressed from the side gored kirtle to the princess > seamed dress > 2. How these dresses were cut out and made, how they were fastened > and how the false sleeves were attached. I can help you with #2--the sleeves were attatched with straight pins. I've seen 3 or four pictures, one of them "Descent from the Cross" bu Rogier van der weyden, which shows a woman wearing a tight-fitting cotehardie with rather short sleeves--down to the bicep--and full length sleeves pinned on to them at the bottom. Drea > > Anyone know? > > > Chantal > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > " The truth is out there" -X Files > " Be sure you want to know what lies behind the doors of truth before you > open them.." -me > " Ask only the questions for which you are ready to hear the answers." -me > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:43:12 -0600 From: Heather McGlaughlin Subject: Re: Cotehardies At 10:30 AM 11/28/96 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings! > >The Herjolfness dress I'm talking about I believe is the one you mention, >Marc. I was trying to figure out the way to describe the way the gores >work--they're not just simple triangular gores that most people might >have seen, but rather look a bit like this: > > | | > | | > | | > | | > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > --------------- > > There are (I'm working from memory, so excuse the sloppy numbers) I= believe > two of these each at side right, side left, back side right and back side > left. The "strips" at the top fit the the garment through the > torso, while the triangular gore flares out at the hip. These garments > have a characteristic drape which resembles a princess cut somewhat and > is quite distinctive when you look for it. And it is, as I mentioned, > _definitely_ a period cut. > > Hope this helps! > Susan Carroll-Clark > sclark@chass.utoronto.ca I think that Karl Kohler's "History of Costume" has a picture of this dress, as well as a pattern/cutting diagram. It's available through Dover books, and you can probably get it at any big bookstore. Heather P.S. Try these books. These are entries in a costuming bibliography I'm currently working on. Houston, Mary G. Medieval Costume in England and France: The 13th, 14th, and 15th Centuries. New York, Dover Publications, 1996. First published: London, A & C Black, 1939. ISBN: 0-486-29060-3. LOCCCN: 95-40171 First Regional Library: (Olive Branch) 391 Hou 1996. 228 pp., illus. Text is chronological: includes chapters on construction, ecclesiastical costume, armor, and ornamentation. Informative text. Good pattern diagrams, details of ornamental and fabric designs. Historical chronologies included- monarchs of Europe. Excellent illustrations taken mostly from primary sources. Glossary and bibliography included. Another book everyone should have. =20 K=F6hler, Carl. A History of Costume. New York: Dover Publications, 1963. ISBN: 486-21030-8. LOCCCN: 63-16328. =20 First Regional Library: (Hernando, MS) 391.094 Koh. 464 pp., illus. Contains examples from antiquity through the nineteenth century, divided by country. Photos of primary sources: paintings, statues, bog finds, sketches, and detailed pattern diagrams with measurements (in cm.) included. Text describes undergarments, materials, methods, male and female fashions, and accessories. Bibliography and index. Excellent and inexpensive resource. Everyone should own this one. Laver, James. Costume and Fashion: A Concise History. New York and London: Thames and Hudson, 1969, 1982, 1986. ISBN: 0-500-20190-0.=20 First Regional Library: (Batesville) 391.009 Lav 1986. 288 pp., illus. Ten chapters covering antiquity through 1970=92s. Lavishly illustrated, including color photos and fashion plates. Many primary source illustrations. Includes index and select bibliography. Detailed sources in list of illustrations. A wonderful tool because of its primary source illustrations. Inexpensive, too. =20 Scott, Margaret. A Visual History of Costume: The Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries. London: B.T. Batsford Ltd., 1986. ISBN: 0-7134-4857-1. University of Mississippi Library: GT575 S26 1986. =09 143 pp., illus. This book is unique in that the material is drawn entirely from primary sources. A full list of illustrations is given at the beginning of the book, with detailed source information.. The introduction is a quick overview of the period, with notes on the sources. The plates are taken from effigies, statues, brass rubbings, manuscripts, architecture, and paintings. Wonderful detail in the photos. Section of full color= plates. Select bibliography and excellent glossary/ index. If you can find this book in the US, GET IT. Excellent series. Heather McGlaughlin Fiona MacLachlan Graduate Assistant Chatelaine Department of Music/ Choral Activities Shire of Hammerhold University of Mississippi Oxford, MS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:05:25 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Ladies Caps Joan Broneske wrote: > >I am looking for information on those little lacy caps that ladies wore >in the 1850's-60's. There are actually 2 different sets of answers to this question. One set is for the 1850's and the other for the 1860's since they rather abruptly fell out of fashion for day wear at the start of the '60's. There were basically 3 types of 'little lacy caps' women wore. A breakfast or morning cap. This was worn with a dressing gown or wrapper in the morning down to breakfast etc. before the lady had her hair formally dressed for the day. They were still had ribbons, lace, etc. as trim, but they tended to be more opaque than day caps, and generally included a 'bag' of fabric at the back to hold the hair low in the back. These caps continued to be shown in the ladies' magazines and they continued to be refered to in trouseau lists, diaries, etc. in the '60's. Most all adult women of at least middle class probably wore these in the morning. Day caps, which had shrunk by the 1850's basically to bits of lacy "frou-frou" perched on the top back of the head when a lady was at home during the day. As I mentioned before, the ladies' magazines stopped showing these in the '60's. The only women in photographs taken in the 1860's wearing day caps are clearly very elderly. These women are also wearing daycap styles that were more common in the 1840's and early '50's. They tend to have ruffles at the side of the face and either have long lappets hanging down at least to the shoulders or else tied under the chin. Evening or Dinner caps also stayed in fashion, but generally they were limited to more well-to-do women who attended formal dinner parties, etc. These were often made of colored ribbons, silk flowers, etc., as opposed to the predominantly white caps for day and morning wear. > 1. Who would have worn them? Age? Social Status? > 2. When would they have been worn? > 3. Where would they have been worn? > 4. Decorations: a lot? a little? what types? The first 3 questions are pretty well covered. The last varies widely, based mainly on the personal taste of the woman as well as the subtle changes of fashions of the time. As with other fashions, the fashion descriptions and illustrations are far more elaborate than what was commonly worn. Night caps were most likely to be worn by the majority of women. They were very plain and tied under the chin. These caps kept the head warm in winter, and helped keep oiled hair and pillows separated from each other. It's easier to wash a cap than a pillow! This was probably more than you wanted to know, but I was on a roll! :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:08:00 MET From: Kelvin Wilson Subject: The dress of fisherfolk Hello everyone, I am interested to find out whether anyone might be able to point me in the direction of either the publications, or the researchers, that can tell me, in detail, more about the dress of British fishermen and -women. The period I'm interested in is the first half of the 19th century- the area I have my eye on is the North-East of England. I believe I once read that a lady is supposed to have written an article on the clothing worn by the Scottish fishermen portrayed on Hill and Adamson's calotypes of 1845. 'Ring someone's bell? The items of clothing which would feature in a history of fishermen's dress of this period are, amongst others: .... 'slop breeches' (short overtrousers) .... the 'gansey' (a fisherman's knitted jumper) .... the short sailor's jacket .... canvas trousers (with convenient flap at the front) .... heavy sea boots, worn over stockings .... the 'bedgown' (a long jacket worn by the fishwives) .... and possibly at this time: oil skins Thank you all, for whatever snippet of information you may wish to share, Kelvin Wilson Rotterdam, The Netherlands ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:17:12 -0600 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Re: Cotehardies > >The Herjolfness dress I'm talking about I believe is the one you mention, >Marc. I was trying to figure out the way to describe the way the gores >work--they're not just simple triangular gores that most people might >have seen, but rather look a bit like this: If I may alter your picture slightly (based on Borlund, page 102, fig. 63) |\ | | | | | | | | / \ | | / \ | | / \ | | ---------- The top part is, I believe, where the "ten gore dress" article that recently ran in the TI was seriously in error. The upper edges are shaped to form the rounded bottom of the arm hole. >There are (I'm working from memory, so excuse the sloppy numbers) I believe >two of these each at side right... Yes, ma'am, as well as a triangular gore center fronter back, reaching no higher than the waist >...is quite distinctive when you look for it. And it is, as I mentioned, _definitely_ a period cut. No arguement there. Marc Carlson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:50:20 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: Nalbinding Dear friends, A gentle reminder...And thanks to all those who were so generous. Tess ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Nov 1996 to 29 Nov 1996 ****************************************************