From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #57 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, March 8 1996 Volume 4, Number 57 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Egyptian pleated clothing Re: renfair costumes Re: renfair costumes Re: renfair costumes Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #54 Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #56 Re: Where did the man's tie come from? Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #56 Re: Short hair for women? -Reply Re: RenFaire Costumes Re: renfair costumes Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) Egypt:Thanks all your answers. Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #55 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:25:09 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Egyptian pleated clothing > >Remember, we really don't know exactly what they wore in ancient Egypt as no > >specimens survive ....... Delightfully, this is not the case. Preservation conditions in ancient Egyptian tombs were astoundingly good and a relatively large number of garments are still extant. One of the easiest to find (and cheapest) sources of information and photographs of these items is the booklet "Egyptian Textiles" by Rosalind Hall in the Shire Egyptology series (same people as "Shire Archaeology") ISBN 0-85263-800-0. Several pleated garments are shown, with varying styles of pleats. In one, the body of the garment is pleated horizontally (!) while the sleeves are pleated perpendicularly to the length of the arm. In two others, the garment is composed of a "sheath" from armpit level down with two combined sleeve/"bodice" pieces attached to the top of the sheath. In both, only the upper section is pleated, but the pleats go different directions on each -- in one vertically (so that the upper section is gathered into the sheath), in the other horizontally (similarly to the first item, except that the pleats don't change direction on the sleeves). My descriptions can't really do them justice. (I believe all these examples are linen, however.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:28:36 -0600 (CST) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: renfair costumes Tis time for me to add my input in on this thread. My view is that the RenFaire Kids are there for the fun, and just think that the middle ages were kind of 'groovy'... and not much more than that... they are there to please the crowd, who are not so impressed with seam techniques, and pleating as the rest of us on this list. For one.. most are theatre majors, and just don't care.. much less afford it. The costume-departments have the capability to be very period.. but for theatre.. it makes no diferance.. (lace over lame' looks like brocade from 50 paces) They make do with what is available to them... and If they so choose, they can go forward in period-ness. For two.. these ren-faires are almost ALWAYS outdoors, and with lack of tenting, or cover, in case of rain, and a good portion are camping there for the summer. I would Never wear an expensive gown under such conditions. In the SCA(and other groups) we have alternate sites set up, and in winter we can set up inside schools.. Which leads me to another point... These people, unless involved in another group, or have an insane intrest in the subject.. do this Only for the summers.. The original poster said that the gowns of these ladies were well made, save for the low cut.... I would applaud these girls for at least going *that* far.... because they are, afterall.. there to entertain... and if they are quick witted enough to pull it off, more power to them. To us they may get a bit old.. but to the million or so drunk men(or women) they see, for a single visit each year... it is always entertaining. On a side note, I also recall from my art history class, that a few of the paintings, painted by men, for men (venus etc) also offended the women who viewed them... and were the only things to be allowed in my the Paris Salon, and others. Take care, Sarahj PS. Anyone know the quality of Dhama silks? They carry china silk, chrepe de chine, Crepe Back Silk Satin(charmuse) Raw Silk, Silk gauze, Silk Chiffon, Silk Satin(12mm) and Silk Dupion....Just curious... Thanks! ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:07:24 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Re: renfair costumes At 08:36 PM 3/7/96 -0500, you wrote: >who replied to Jennifer's posting did, women who offer the world such >complete views of their breasts ought to remember that at least SOME people >who view their charms have no wish to do so, and might even be offended by >their dress. Distasteful as this thought might be to the wearer, the sight >may be equally distasteful to the viewer. >I'm sure cyberspace is echoing with cries of "I can wear what I want and no >one can tell me otherwise!" And that is quite true. I really think Renfaire "costumes" are merely intended as entertainment. I don't think that there are many people who go who think that they are really representative of the Renaissance era. Most of the workers at the Phoenix area Renfaire are attractive young women. And even the heavy or older women get to "strut their stuff" for a weekend. Personally I rather enjoy the thing and my family goes every year. However, if someone is offended by the fact that the women are wearing suggestive clothing, they don't have to go. I find the idea that people would go to these things and then be offended by the costumes totally bizarre. Renfaire is kind of like Mardi Gras, a time for fantasy and fun. I frequently find people's on-street clothes to be offensive. Too bad for me. While I support authenticity in many areas -- historical education, museums, reenactment groups and so on -- I think that expecting it from entertainment organizations is pushing it a bit. Sharon in Phoenix ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:26:13 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: renfair costumes I, on the other hand, think that entertainment groups *do* have an obligation to try and do a good job. If they are billing themselves as a Rennaissance Fair they *should* try and do it accurately. If they are billing themselves as a fantasy fair, that is something different. Then they can do whatever they please. At least in theory they are trying to represent history - if so they should try and do it right. Or, admit that they aren't doing trying to do that, and call it something else. I wouldn't go see Disney's Poccohantus because they distorted history so much. If they had called it something like "White Deer, story of an Indian girl" I would have had less objections. If the Rennaissance Fairs had caveats that what they are doing is not real history, then I wouldn't be so unhappy. But, as it is, I think they are (in some cases) committing a kind of fraud. An intellectual fraud, but still fraud. Note: I am aware that it is legal - I am not sure that it is right - and I *do* understand the difference. Judy Gerjuoy jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 00:00:19 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #54 Dear Ysabeau, I have done extensive readings on Ancient Egypt for many years, and can address your question...sorry, only briefly here as all my books are packed away in boxes at the moment... It is "suspected" that Nefertiti (correct spelling) may have worn her head shaved, but this has never been determined definitively because her mummy has never documented to have been found. (However, I have some suspicions about one particular mummy which is thought to be Queen Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, and mother of Ahkenaton, Nefertiti's husband and Pharaoh) At any rate, head shaving was fairly common in ancient Egypt, as you suppose, because of the heat for both men and women. Wigs were worn by many levels of society, not just the courtiers or royals. The wigs ran the gamut from fairly simple plaiting to elaborate confections which were then topped by delicate goldwork ornaments, tiaras, coronets or what have you. Some of these wigs and their ornaments still survie today in various museums worldwide. Another decoration used, was the perfumed wax cone which would gradually melt from the heat and perfum both the wig and the air. These cones are seen in many exant wall paintings depicting dancers. It must have rather a nice option to "remove one's hair" during the scorching heat of an Egyptian summer! And also, the Egyptians were noted for their cleanliness, and it would surely be easier to prevent head lice and other infestations of the scalp if there were no hair present. On the other hand, many of the better preserved mummies exant in our time still have hair...and in some cases, ie the supposed Queen Tiye, quite long and luxuriant, and auburn in color. The mummy of Rameses II still has what was left of his hair (also more or less auburn) around the base of his head, as you see in modern day male pattern baldness. He lived to be quite aged for his day...and I believe his age at death was estimated to be in the seventies...but this is from memory...it may have been even more. Egyptian temple priest almost universally shaved their heads, and wall paintings indicate may slaves to have worn their hair short or even shorn off...but I digress, somewhat. In general, it is believed that many people did shave their heads, but with the extensive use of wigs, I don't know if this really answers the question of "short hair for women" as many of the wigs had quite long tresses, and therefor would not really qualify. I have rather limited knowledge of the Africans...genericlly (sp?) speaking, but it appears that the Ehtiopians and Nubian women did wear their hair short. This I have gathered from the wall paintings that I have seen. There is one rather famous painting of the visit of the Queen of Punt (an African state of the time) that shows her, not only with short hair, but with an immensely fat body, which it seems was thought quite appealing by her people. Incidentally, the depiction of obese persons in ancient Egyptian paintings is extraordinarily rare, and it is thought that her visit must have been quite a momentous occasion. One further side note. It is thought that Nefertiti "may" have been a blue-eyed blonde! Her lineage is not altogether clear. She may have been a princess of the Royal House of Mittani, which frequently sent noble females to the Egyptian court as brides. But the information avaiable is far too sketchy. Her name, by the way means...and their are many differing trans- lations...but something along the lines of: Beauty Comes. Hope some of this is helpful, or at least interesting. If it is important, I can site references. Your's in service, Jocasta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 00:35:44 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #56 Dear Marsha, I, unfortunately, have not been lucky enough to visit the Cairo musuem in person, but I have seen photographs and read of some of the frag- ments of clothing you refer to. I believe the tunic you mention is one of the garments that was found in Tutankhamun's tomb in 1922 by Howard Carter. It has been while since I have seen the particular photo I have in mind, but as I recall the tunic is "spangled" with five-pointed gold stars here and there (which look rather more like starfish than stars)...but I may be confusing the tunic with the royal version of /reject the Amun priests cape-type garment. The priests wore leopard or cheetah skins wrapped diagonally from one shoulder to the opposite hip. This garment of Tutankhamun's (bit disrespectful to call him Tut) is I believe fine linen with the gold stars representing the cheetah's spots. One of my books has a line drawing of the exant garment as it would appear if worn. My impression is that, given the frontal attitude conventions of Egyptian paintings, ie head facing right or left, with pupils of the eyes facing forward, that the paintings are precise enough to be accurate. Especially when coupled with the three dimensional examples of existing statuary. For example, the small gilded statue of the goddess Selket from Tutankhamun's tomb is detailed enough to accurately reproduce the draping of her gown. I have tried this myself, and it does work. And, aren't the wigs AMAZING!! I feel the same as you...surely they must have been in better shape 3,000 years ago!!! To my eyes, they look hot. Hard to believe that so many would have found comfortable in such temperatures. Whew. - -Jocasta ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:41:53 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Where did the man's tie come from? A. Craig... You wrote: >I've trying to locate information on where tie's come from. Can anyone >tell me? I'd be especially interested in knowing where in current >literature I might find some information on this. Any help would be >appreciated. The Book of Ties Francois Chaille Falmmarion Paris New York (sorry publishing date not in my notes) Check out the bibliography. also see... Collars...Stocks...Cravats A History and Costume Dating Guide to Civilian Men's Neckpieces 1655-1900 Doriece Colle Rodalle Press Emmaus, PA 18049 1972 Bill Christen gwjchria@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 00:45:18 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #56 Marsha, Just re-read your post, and remembered that I forgot about the "realism" aspect of the Amarna Period (Akhenaton's reign). True. This was the one era in which the rigid stylizations of Egyptian art were dropped and a genuine attempt at realism was attempted. Akhenaton, it is believed, insisted that the art of his time reflect real life. That is to say, to have portraits of the Royal family represented not as stiff, and idealized gods, but as human beings, expressing human emotions and failings...and not least of all, the King's personal deformities. This period lasted only twenty years, but art from this period represents truly, some of the most beautiful ever created in Egyptian. One need only examine the exquisite bust of Nefertiti in the Berlin Museum to understand the refinements of taste in this short period. - -Jocasta ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:08:12 -0800 From: Cin Subject: Re: Short hair for women? -Reply At 08:01 AM 3/7/96 -0600, you wrote: >Do any of the manners books you mention include etiquette for women >riding tricycles (or bicycles, but women's bikes weren't widely available >until about 1895)? I'm doing research on early women cyclists. For that >matter, the healthfulness of cycling was hotly debated at that time, >especially for women; do your early health books make any mention? > Jan, I havent seen any, but didnt look much either. Try "How I Learned to Ride the Bicycle" by (oh dear, I've forgotten). The author is a fairly famous early suffragist. She learned in England while visiting another famous Brit suffragist. They were in their 50s at the time. Highly amusing! Check & see what she says about divided skirts vs. bloomer costume. I dont recall there being very much. My reprint had pictures of the author on her "wheel". At one time I was looking for fencing references (to go with my fully bustle 1884 fencing gown) and didnt find much either. 'Bout the only thing of interest was the "Health Corset" or "Light Riding Corset" for ladies. There was badmitton, croquet & equitation blurbs, but none of what either of us wants. . - --cin - --cin cin@netuser.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 23:18:44 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: RenFaire Costumes I have read most of the replies to the letter about Ren Faire Costumes, I would like to say this: I have been going to Ren Faires for many years, and I know several people who work there as well. Someone said they are badly paid, yes...this is so true and they do have to provide their own costumes, not to mention sleep in tents, practice their "acts", take classes to learn to speak the lingo, etc etc. I think it is totally unrealistic to expect people who do this for FUN (is the key word here), and not a living as so many of you fo, to have authentic costumes. I know how expensive costumes are, I've looked around. Most people nowdays don't sew, or have very little knowledge of sewing. Many people who attend or work at Ren Faire buy their costumes or borrow. I think if people want to flaunt themselves, that's their business and no one has ANY right to criticise them for doing so (I am sure all of us have made many mistakes of much greater consequences than showing too much skin). If you want to be a costume "snob" and be completely authentic about the costumes you design and make, so be it, but never expect others to live up to YOUR expectations...it's just not fair. I am sure there are expectations others have of you that you couldn't possibly live up to. (and this is directed to everyone). I admit, I too love to see authenticity, but not everyone is as educated as everyone else, wasn't there a time when you didn't know much about costuming? I'm sure there was. Let's not be so judgemental folks, Ren Faire is about fun, nothing more. Oh, and about flaunting oneself around men, I am sure they know what they will have to deal with...so that's their problem. One thing I have noticed about the men at Ren Faire, they leave you alone unless you invite them (in some way, verbal or otherwise) and anyone who would wear a costume that flaunts breasts, or whatever else it flaunts, is begging for attention. If they aren't, and they get it...I am sure they won't wear that costume again. I once knew a woman (and have known many who do this since) who tucked a rosebud between her breasts so the men who walked around could spray it with water (a way of keeping cool) or smell the rose. She did this for a reason, not out just because it seemed cool to do. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 23:32:24 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: renfair costumes Morghana@aol.com wrote: > self-proclaimed member of the authenticity police "tsk-tsking" those > ill-informed RenFaire folk in the guise of a query that was worded to make > the point that unless you are blood-curdlingly "historically accurate", then > you are to be looked down at. IF that was not the original poster's intent, > I apologized once, and I will do so again. > My biggest objection is the waving of credentials then the proclaiming of > "This is OBVIOUSLY wrong" or "not in period" or the one that I love the most > "They never did such-and-so." How do we know they didn't? ..... > The other point I'd like to raise is this: If you find the display of bosoms > unpleasant or tasteless, just say so. Please don't couch it in terms of > historical correctness. It neither lends respectability nor credibility to > the assertion, and involves scholarship in an arena it simply is out of place > in. You are ALWAYS welcome to express your opinion on this, and I will > defend your right to do so, but leave historical correctness out of it. I know I've already said my two cents worth, but... I just wanted to say that, even though people seem to be giving you a hard time about your reply, I agree with you totally. I hate when people throw their credentials in everyone's face and then criticize others for not being "correct" when they themselves know nothing about the people they are talking about. I mean, really...so what if they weren't correct? I agree, it might be distasteful, but isn't that their choice? No one is perfect, and no one should expect anyone else to be. I happen to think it's in poor taste to be so unforgiving and snobbish. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 23:41:58 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) I want to apologise if I am wrong here...I admit, I have a sore spot for judgemental people...but can we all get off our soapboxes now? I hate hearing "only a whore would flaunt herself like that" etc etc. Face it, there are just some people out there who don't care (more than some, depending on where you live). This isn't aimed at anyone in particular (I am only responding to this particular letter because it's the last one on my list). This group isn't about judging the morals of young girls, if in fact they were young (as I think they were described), it's about costumes. I didn't think we were all here to judge other people, but to further our own knowledge and help people who want and ask for our help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 02:14:38 -0600 From: "Silvestre Garcia" Subject: Egypt:Thanks all your answers. Thanks for your help on my search about Ancient Egypt. All your answers are very useful in my work. Thank you again. Sincerely, Yolis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 10:05:58 GMT From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #55 > In all the examples I am familiar with, the "black paint" was actually > blackening--either by imbedding carbon in the metal surface, as when one > "seasons" a cast iron skillet, or by heat treating in an oxygen-poor > environment to "blue" or "brown" steel (a kind of highly-stable rust). If you > have sources which describe true painting, please let me know. Embedding carbon in the metal surface sounds like case-hardening (packing steel in charcoal and then heating it so the carbon diffuses inwards). Simplifing massively, steel with a higher carbon content is harder but more brittle, and case-hardening gives you a hard surface without making the whole piece brittle. I've no idea if it was ever done to armour - I would have expected toughness to be more important than surface hardness. Tempering metal in oil can also give a blue-black finish, and sounds more likely than case-hardening. The blue-black coating you get with some types of "rust-killers" is iron oxide. It's actually chemically less stable than rust, but forms a thin hard surface layer that stays there, instead of flaking off like rust. Suitable heat treatment would indeed produce it on steel (rather than reduce it from rust like the "rust-killers"). [Cast iron is different - was armour ever cast?] ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #57 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!