From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #64 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, March 11 1996 Volume 4, Number 64 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Where did the man's tie come from? Re: Historic clothing newsletter Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) Regency Support Garments(was Re: Droopy Bustlines) Short hair & 1860's chignons Corsets & big busts various ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:24:43 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Where did the man's tie come from? Bambi Dingman wrote: > CSRT29A@prodigy.com (MR A R CRAIG) wrote: > > I've trying to locate information on where tie's come from. Can anyone > > tell me? > There is a good reference to this in the book "The Mode in Hats and > Headdress" by R. Turner Wilcox. Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1945. > On pages 141-42 in a section on wigs in the eighteenth century, it says, > > "In the 'tye' or 'tie wig,' the hair was simply drawn back and tied with a > black silk ribbon. > > The bagwig worn first by soldiers before 1700, had the hair encased in a > bag of gummed black taffeta drawn tight by a string and covered by a > rosette or bowknot of the same material. It is said that this style > originated among the servants who thus covered their hair while at work > but another source tells us that it originated in the stables where the > horses' tails were covered when in the stalls. By the 'thirties, > gentlemen had also adopted what was at first considered too negligee and > disrespectful for the social world. The bag which increased in size to > the 'forties, served as a protection to the coat from the grease and > powder of the wig. > > The ribbon end of the tie wig and the bagwig were brought around to the > front of the neck and tied in a bow. This was the solitaire and the > beginning of the man's black silk tie. A jeweled barette or diamond pin > sometimes fastened the solitaire." I usually find R.Turner Wilcox retty good (at least her drawings are) but this explanation bothers me. All the costume dictionaries I have (and that totals around 6 now) say that the men's tie or "necktie" is an outgrowth of the "cravat" . My best source for anything on that subject is from "The Art of Tying the Cravat" (1828) by H. Le Blanc. Under history it says "Cravat, from Cravate, which Menage derives from the Croats, a sort of German troops, usually called Croats, from whom, in 1636, this ornament, he adds was adopted" source given as Todd's Johnson's Dictionary. There follows a long explanation of cravats going all the way back to Roman times (although in that case it seems to stretch the point a bit). In anycase this entire book is contained in LATE GEORGIAN COSTUME along with "The Tailor's Friendly Instructor" (1822) by J. Wyatt. This is available from at $18.95 + 2.50 shipping. Having done a great deal of research on the subject of both cravats & neckties, I have never heard the explanation given by R. Turner Wilcox before and I question it. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:20:56 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Historic clothing newsletter Allan Terry wrote: > > Karen, > > What is the ALHFAM Historic Clothing Newsletter? And how do you subscribe? > > Thanks, > > Fran Fran - ALHFAM is the LIVING HISTORICAL FARMS BULLETIN and has to do with their association. This used to be done out of the Smithsonian Museum but for some reason a couple of years ago it was moved out and is now being handled by the Conner Prairie Museum 13400 Allisonville Rd FISHERS, IN 46038 I would not call it a "Historic Clothing Newsletter" unless it has changed a lot, it deals with all aspects of life that might interest people who run historic farms (museum situations mostly). Robb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:16:37 GMT From: "Todd A. Brun" Subject: Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) >The picture to which you refer is captioned "La Belle." That's French for a >whore. Maybe in the slang of the time, but hardly in general! "La Belle" means literally "The Beautiful (One)," and for the most part is a compliment. I wouldn't want to assert anything about its connotations, but I've never heard it used to refer to prostitutes. The usual French word for "whore" is "putaine" (or "pute" for short). (Don't use it unless you want to be extremely coarse.) -- Todd Brun ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Regency Support Garments(was Re: Droopy Bustlines) Carol Kocian writes: > This is a question for those who do Regency/Federal/Directorie >costume. (1800-1815) As I have read, corsets were generally abandoned. >There is, however, evidence of corsets existing for the era. One example is >the bust-supporting garment in _Revolution In Fashion 1715-1815_, from The >Kyoto Costume Institute. As many have already responded that corsets did indeed exist during this period and were certainly worn by those who felt the need for bust support I would also like to recommend a garment illustrated in Jean Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen" (the later years volume, I don't have the dates here at work) which can most easily be described as a "Regency bra-slip". The garment has a closely fitted bodice made of very strong fabric (mine is actually made of corset coutil). which stops just below the natural bust with an attached skirt/slip made of a lighter cotton which has multiple rows of cording and a little ruffle at the hem. I am a very large busted person and this garment supports me as well as modern brassiere without the inconveniences usually associated with corsets. It also keeps my Regency gowns from getting caught about my legs while dancing and relieves me of the burden of lining all my skirts (since I am not of the figure best appreciated by the damped dress/wet t-shirt admiring crowd.) I highly recomend this garment for wear underneath any Regency/Empire/Federal fashion. I have no other reference to this garment except the Hunisett book. If someone else knows of a historical reference (primary source??) to this type of garment I would be delighted to know. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:23:18 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Short hair & 1860's chignons Fran... You wrote: >I'm wondering if the front views in Victorian photos are confusing >people. When most of the hair is pulled to the back and invisible in >a front-view photo, this can give the effect of a more modern short >haircut. Not in the case of the photos I was asking about. The cut ends of the women's hair are clearly visible. I can't comment on the later photos as that is not a period I've done that much research. >In the 1860s it usually took the form of massive chignons twisted or >braided in any of many ways. Being as picky as I am, I have to point out that the "massive chignon" look didn't come into popular fashion until just after the Civil War in the later half of the 1860's, along with smaller hats that perched just forward of this mass of hair. I agree 100% with the rest of your post. Glenna Jo "Picky" Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:47:40 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Corsets & big busts I don't know which period of corset SyRilla was making for a larger woman, (the post doesn't say), but as a 42C, the all-time most comfortable corset I've ever worn is the 1785-1795 "Large Womans Corest" on pg 138 of Jean Hunnisetts book "Period Costume for Stage & Screen 1500-1700". I'm interested in the answers to the Empire/Regency fashion question for large busted women. I love the look, but no matter how I corset or tightly tie the bodice strings, I look more like I'm wearing one of the 1960's high waisted "hippie" dresses than a Regency style. I'd really appreciate suggestions for obtaining a more fashionable bustline for the period. I haven't tried to just squash my bust flatter yet (ouch), is this an option I should consider? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:06:38 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: various To follow up several recent threads: FYI: Although turkeys are native to Northern America (loved the pun), they were brought back to England within "Faire" period and eaten, but usually kept for breeding purposes only. Although extremely rare, they DID exist on the Elizabethan table. I am currently researching probate inventories and I did come accross Sir Walter Raleigh listing 2 turkeys in his will. Caroline might be able to give more info on this (off) topic. On the (hot/flamming) topic of Ren Faires and the most recent "misrepresentation of history" and "people learning from poor examples" thread, I have a family story you might enjoy: My aunt-in-law was preparing an Easter ham. She put the ham on the cutting board and neatly sliced off about one inch of each end of the haunch and then put the ham into the roasting pan. As her mother and I watched this procedure, I asked her why she did that. She turned to my granmother-in-law and said "Because Mom always made hams that way and they always came out great". Her Mom started laughing hysterically, saying "I cut the ends off the hams because the whole ham didn't fit in MY raosting pan!" ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #64 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!