From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #91 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, April 12 1996 Volume 4, Number 91 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Corsets and rib removal (!?!) Corsets Re: Corsets Re: Opinions needed on book: "Dress in Ireland", Mairead Dunleavy Re: book: "Dress in Ireland" Zippers, where are you? Re: Zippers, where are you? Re: Zippers, where are you? Middle Eastern dance costumes/1750s breeches Re: Corsets and rib removal (!?!) Rephasing the zipper question RE: 1750s breeches Re: "Dress in Ireland" Time Change Amadeus/court etiquette Memorial for Dunblane RE: 1750s breeches Men's bottom half Re: 1750s breeches Re: 1750s breeches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:21:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Corsets and rib removal (!?!) Warning: not for the squeamish About the state of medicine allowing rib removal, my grandmother had a rib removed as a child for medical reasons (which I'm not sure would even be considered today!) in the early 1900's, before 1910. This was in back-woods Poland, in a tiny village near the Russian border, where medical standards were in all likelihood a few dacades out of date to begin with. She had several operations as a child, and at least one of them was on the kitchen table without anesthesia. I remember her telling me that she went blind for a few days as a result of the shock of the operation, but she lived to the grand old age of 86, so the harrowing experiences of her childhood didn't seem to slow her down... Now, I'm not saying that every woman went and had a rib removed so as to look more fashionable. But in the light of my grandmother's experience, I think it's possible that some did. Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:44:01 -0700 From: Subject: Corsets How about the corsetting in the 1830's, just before Victoria's era. The wasp-waisted look, especially in the fashion plates, is pretty extreme. Dating the Victorian era...this is a constant peeve of mine...I keep seeing items (clothing, decorative arts, accessories, houses), called "Victorian", even though they aren't within the 1837-1901 date range. I think the best example I ran across was house for sale advertised as " a 1913 Victorian". I think even Edward was dead by then... I know some Victorian elements persisted into the Edwardian era, but I've been told by quite a few people that they market later items as "Victorian" because "they sell better". I guess I'm just a purist.... Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:09:45 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Corsets You wrote: >How about the corsetting in the 1830's, just before Victoria's era. The >wasp-waisted look, especially in the fashion plates, is pretty extreme. Keep in mind that fashion plates have little to do with real bodies. Based on genre painting of Mary Ellen best and a couple original dresses it doesn't appear they were necessarily that tightly laced. The 1840's laced very tightly all the way up the body as well as very low on the hips for the long waisted look popular then. No room to breathe at all! It seems that every era's fashions tend to look extreme to later generations... >Dating the Victorian era...this is a constant peeve of mine...I've been >told by quite a few people that they market later items as "Victorian" >because "they sell better". I guess I'm just a purist.... Me too!! What ever sells I guess...Sigh! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:24:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Opinions needed on book: "Dress in Ireland", Mairead Dunleavy On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Corbie wrote: > I'm looking at a catalogue which is offering the book, "Dress in Ireland," > by Mairead Dunleavy. The catalogue (of course) says it's "a lavishly > illustrated, well-researched study of the way in which the Irish dressed, > rich and poor, male and female, from the bronze age to the 20th century." > > Anybody know this book? Is it any good? I don't know if it answers your question, but could you tell us the name/address of the catalog? I'd like to order a copy of this book. I hadn't realized it was in print. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 23:38:55 UT From: "Susan Carter" Subject: Re: book: "Dress in Ireland" Corbie and the list, I've seen the book ( at the Colonial Williamsburg Library) and it's great. Well illustrated, well written, and as far as I can tell, well researched. Not at all a coffee table book. What catalog is it in? I'd love a copy for my own library. It has lots of info on the shaggy mantle thing that the English associated with the Irish in the 17th century and that has close associations with the English bed rugg which is one of the things I'm currently working on. Su Carter Plimoth Plantation Box 1620 Plymouth, MA 02362 (508) 746-1622 ext. 214 sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:56:13 -0400 From: Ladnier@aol.com Subject: Zippers, where are you? My costume history instructor, Liz Hooper wants me to ask you the following question: Can anyone document a zipper in a garment prior to 1933 in a collection or museum? She has researched this area alot and can not locate one. $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ Pennies from Heaven, where it’s always reigning money, or at least my kids think so. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:19:00 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Zippers, where are you? Ladnier@aol.com wrote: > = > My costume history instructor, Liz Hooper wants me to ask you the followi= ng > question: > = > Can anyone document a zipper in a garment prior to 1933 in a collection o= r > museum? > She has researched this area alot and can not locate one. > = > $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ > $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ > $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ > Pennies from Heaven, where it=B9s always reigning money, > or at least my kids think so. > Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University > s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu > $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ > $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ > $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ > $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ > = > = Fran Grimble reviewed a book entitled "Zipper" for RAGS.... perhaps she = will answer your question, as I seem to remember she was impressed with = the historical information given. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 23:32:25 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" Subject: Re: Zippers, where are you? - -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Can anyone document a zipper in a garment prior to 1933 in a collection or museum? In _The Encyclopedia of Fashion_ by Georgina O'Hara is the following entry: "ZIPPER.....In 1893 W. Litcomb Judson of Chicago, USA, patented a clasp locker system of fastening which was constructed of a series of hooks and eyes with a clasp lock for opening and closing. In 1913 Gideon Sundback, a Swede working in the USA, developed Judson's ideas and produced a hookless fastener with interlocking metal teeth. The fastener was first used on money belts and in 1917 members of the US Navy were issued with windproof jackets with clasp-lock fasteners at the front. It was B.G. Worth of B.F. Goodrich Co. who gave the name "zipper" to a fastener that was used at the time for closing shoes. In the early 1930s SCHIAPARELLI was one of the earliest designers to use zippers on fashion garments..." I highly recommend this book as a general fashion reference! Karen Augusta oldlace@sover.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:36:22 +0000 From: "Leslie Helms" Subject: Middle Eastern dance costumes/1750s breeches Thanks to all who have encouraged me to write more on Middle Eastern costumes. I will do so as soon as I can catch my breath. I'm helping with panniers and corsets right now for a 1750s production, and trying to make a living in my spare time. Can anyone contribute some insight on how the men's breeches of that era were fitted? We're working from "The Cut of Men's Clothing" and having to do quite a bit of modifying after scaling up the patterns. The front center flap of the breeches as taken from the book has a distinct horizontal curve, which we have not seen on any paintings. The paintings also show a rather closer fit than we believe is practical. In "Sense and Sensibility" the pants had a fairly straight front fall from waist to crotch, somewhat camouflaged by the vertical flaps, which would seem to add the necessary seat depth with no saggy backsides. Did the tighter breeches of earlier years use the same strategy? For that matter, is the fit in "S&S" accurate for its time? Help! I'm out of my period, my continent, and my gender! Thanks, Leslie leslieh@canfield.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:59:24 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Corsets and rib removal (!?!) On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: > > I'd like to see hard primary source evidence for this, especially considering > the state of medicine in the 19th Century. > I too have heard this "historical legend" and IMHO that's what it is, just a > "legend" perhaps created or at least promoted by people (wisely) opposed to the > practice of tight-lacing. This is not to say a few really obssessed women > didn't do this late in the century (really wonder even then...), but certainly Oliver Jensen's 'The Revolt of American Women' has a picture of Anna Held who had a rib removed in order to reduce her waist. Or so the caption says. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:54:39 -0400 From: Ladnier@aol.com Subject: Rephasing the zipper question I am going to rephase the Zipper question. The zipper history is not what I needed. I am sorry, I must have made the previous question to vague. Thank you for the responses. Question: Does anyone have a original garment in their museum or collection with the original zipper in it that dates prior to 1933? Or does someone know of or seen such a garment. We are looking for something we can go see. The garment must be documented. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 09:00:52 EDT From: dale@esri.com (Dale Loberger (ESRI-Charlotte)) Subject: RE: 1750s breeches Forwarded with corrected Subject, sorry for the repeat mail. Amazon Drygoods (800-798-7979) has three good 18th c. men's breeches patterns. They have a men's 1770 breeches, drop front, laced back, with dog-ear pockets (#776) it is a good one by Period Impressions. This will give you a more accurate fit than scaling from a graphed pattern in a book where it is more difficult to guage sizes properly. The fit of men's breeches is not as tight as it appears in paintings. The baggy seat is necesary for ease of movement in activities such as horseback riding. The fit is more snug in the front thighs and knees. The fullness of the backside does not come from under the fall and must be cut in the back piece. The top of the front fall is actually cut straight, not curved, but it may appear curved when wore. I am sure that Ms. Waugh's pattern is well researched, but a ready made pattern would be easier to fit for someone "out of my period, my continent, and my gender!" The Romantic Period, 1815-1845, (S&S) is characterized by more fitted men's clothing in general including men's breeches, waistcoat, frock coat, &c. Breeches in this period were cut higher in the back to provide ease without the saggy back of the eariler period. This period is very different from the American Colonial Period (or Georgian Period in England) and should not be used to judge the eariler periods although S&S was certainly accurate for its own time. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring - --- End Included Message --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:22:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Re: "Dress in Ireland" I have seen this book. It has some early period but not enough to warrant the price if you are doing pre 1600 IMO. It concentrates on late 17th and 18th centuries. It is a very nice overview book with color plates. Hope that helps. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 10:32:59 PDT From: Ches@mail.io.com Subject: Time Change PLEASE everyone change your computer time and date. Of all the lists I am on I am consistantly getting mail for the wrong date and time Since April 1st! I know most of you are not aware of this or are so paranoid about April fools day that you did not change your time and date. thankyou. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:25:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Amadeus/court etiquette I am designing Amadeus for my MFA thesis. As part of my background research, I would be interested in any documentation of proper attire for court appearances in Emperor Joseph II of Austria's court. Specifically looking for sumptuary laws or specific colors/pieces pro-or-prescribed. Thanks all- Kel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:03:55 -0700 From: kari@cdsnet.net (Roland & Kora Kari) Subject: Memorial for Dunblane I do realize that this is totally off the subject, but I thought you just might like to know. Sat, April 13th at the hour of 12 noon local time. Bagpipers and several Pipe Bands around the world will be playing the first global memorial service for the Slain victms and the surviors of Dunblane Scotland. I just wanted to inform you that if you see a lone piper or an assembled group playing very sad tunes around that time what they are playing for. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:57 -0400 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: RE: 1750s breeches At 09:00 AM 4/12/96 EDT, you wrote: > >The fit of men's breeches is not as tight as it appears in >paintings. Well,......This is one of those "class" things. The "common" mans clothes fit more loosly than those upper crust guys in the paintings. Have a look at some Hogarth prints (Dover Publishes a book), just the right period. Breeches also were fit tigher in 1770 then 1750. What country is the play set in? The style of fly varies in France vs. Holland vs. England in the 1750s. By 1760 the narrow fall was pretty much universal. >The baggy seat is necesary for ease of movement > in activities such as horseback riding. The fit is more >snug in the front thighs and knees. The fullness of >the backside does not come from under the fall and must be >cut in the back piece. The top of the front fall is >actually cut straight, not curved, but it may appear curved >when wore. I am sure that Ms. Waugh's pattern is well >researched, but a ready made pattern would be easier to fit >for someone "out of my period, my continent, and my >gender!" Good advice above. Yes, a "ready made" pattern would be the best approach. It may also be of use to look at Beth Gilguns's TIDINGS FROM THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY and RURAL PENNSYLVANIA CLOTHING (sorry don't know author on the last one). Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:57:35 -0700 From: TADAMS@raychem.com Subject: Men's bottom half At the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th, men in Europe were wearing breeches, pantaloons and pants. What's a good short definition of each? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:10:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: 1750s breeches Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 12-Apr-96 RE: 1750s breeches by Kevin Richard-Morrow@ajb > What country is the play set in? The style of fly varies in France vs. > Holland vs. England in the 1750s. By 1760 the narrow fall was pretty much > universal. > Amadeus is set in Austria--in Vienna to be exact. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:35:09 -0400 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: 1750s breeches >>From daemon Fri Apr 12 18:07:58 1996 >Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:10:12 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gretchen Miller >To: Historical Costume Mailing List , > Kevin Richard-Morrow >Subject: Re: 1750s breeches >References: <199604121751.NAA55632@labor.ajb.dni.us> > >Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 12-Apr-96 RE: 1750s breeches by >Kevin Richard-Morrow@ajb >> What country is the play set in? The style of fly varies in France vs. >> Holland vs. England in the 1750s. By 1760 the narrow fall was pretty much >> universal. >> > >Amadeus is set in Austria--in Vienna to be exact. > >toodles, gretchen > > ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #91 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!