From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #97 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, April 22 1996 Volume 4, Number 97 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Small Garment Hypothesis The Clothes We Wore CD-ROM Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #96 Re: Fun with smocks Re: Trojan Gold? Re: prayer shawls Re: Elenor of Toledo Re: Trojan Gold? Vintage dance class in San Francisco Area Re: Small Garment Hypothesis Elizabethan Chemise medieval clothing - dearth of information FW: garb question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:18:22 -0500 From: recon36@server.iadfw.net (Ed Walton) Subject: Small Garment Hypothesis >It has been my theory that we have all these small surviving >garments because people ran out of smaller people to make them down for. This hypothesis is contradicted, at least in the case of males between the ages of 16 and 50, by military quartermaster procurement records. Army records thru WW2 show the vast majority of uniforms were acquired to fit males with chest no greater than 38 and waist no greater than 32. This size certainly fits with a 22" female waist. Height has also increased with the pork, but I don't remember the averages. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 18:26:09 -0500 From: Mel Orecklin Subject: The Clothes We Wore CD-ROM The first CD-ROM whose theme is costume. Talk about one excited little boy. Expectanly I awaited for its arrival. And one of the biggest disappointments in the brief history of CD-ROM. I am the manager of a computer store and have collected costume for a number of years under the name "The Gallery of Costume". My wife and I are dealers and put out a mail order catalogue of original antique costume. About two weeks ago I learned that a new CD-ROM called "The Clothes We Wore" had just been released. It is a two CD-ROM set. The first CD is perportedly a history of costume. It is weak and with little material. The second CD has a time-line of costume and a really boring game in which one dresses a male or female body in period costume. The CD is by: E.M.M.E. Interactive 1200 Summer Street Stamford CT 06905 (203) 406-4040 fax: (203) 406-4043 As this is a new product, I wanted to provide to the rest of the members on h-costume a timely introduction. Save your money. It ain't worth it. I will try and write a more comple review if there is any interest. The power of CD permits large quantities of material to be archived. I had hoped for dozens or perhaps hundreds of pictures of Worth dresses. Or great detail on individual pieces. This CD has little useful information to even new comers of costume history. If anyone is still interested, the retail price is $59.99 Cdn and I would be pleased to ship it to you. Frankly, I will be trying to return my copy to the distributor. Mel Orecklin, P.Eng., MBA (204) 985-9007; fax: 956-2331 Plexxus Interactive e-mail: mel@CDCanada.com 276 Portage Ave. Winnipeg, MB Canada R3C 0B6 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 96 19:32:20 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #96 Brenda wrote: Here's a thought on the sizes of surviving garments of any era where a great deat of fabric is used, and then reused in the interest of economy: it is easy to cut a garment down to a smaller size, or recut completely to a different style in a smaller size, but unless the style changes dramatically from a voluminous to close fitting, it is almost impossible to cut to a larger size. From the Victorian era we have photos, from earlier periods we have other visual representations and not a few of them represent rather hefty people. It has been my theory that we have all these small surviving garments because people ran out of smaller people to make them down for. Add another theory to the pot -- -- Brenda So I`ll another theory: Suposedly corset wearers wore there garments daily and doing this most of them probably wore out. However the younger generation who were not fully developed outgrew there garments before they wore them out. Therefore there are more of these child garments remaining than adult garments today. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 20:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Fun with smocks On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, The Espresso Pegasus! wrote: > On Sat, 20 Apr 1996 Ngelina@aol.com wrote: > > >I was looking through a book of medieval > > >paintings, and lo and behold there was my dress.... Go figure. > > > > Not that much to figure, really--if it worked for you, it worked for them, > > too. A good reminder that your instincts _can_ be trusted, and a kind of > > nifty connection to some medieval seamstress, too. > > This is why it is a good thing to throw out the directions when you begin > to sew medievally. Just instinct sew it. (not reccommended for > elizabethan.. ;) But I guess if 'it worked for them... it still works. While I understand the spirit behind sentiments like the last two, I have to admit that I shudder when people toss off statements like this. I've seen a lot of examples of what people tend to produce when they try to make historical clothing "by instinct". The fact is, our instincts are _not_ the same as they had: our technological constraints are different; our esthetics are different. Once in a while, you may coincidentally reproduce a historical cut or technique -- but it simply isn't _useful_ to advise people to trust instinct above research. (And for the record, I didn't get the impression that that was what Gwen was suggesting in her original post.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:21:34 -0400 From: packpack@limestone.kosone.com (Frank Packer) Subject: Re: Trojan Gold? > > I read an article in the Wall St. Journal the other day >about the exhibition of Trojan gold (that Schleimann found) at >the Pushkin Museum in Moscow. There was mention of a catalogue >(in German), does anyone know of a US book seller that might >be getting any? I've been looking for good photos of the jewelry >from that excavation for years. > > Alison Check out this week's (April 22nd, 1996) issue of "Time" magazine and the article "Troy's Lost Treasure". To quote from it: "The catalog, says Mikhail Treister, a curator at the Pushkin, is a 'colossal work' that involved photographing each object, creating a complete description of it and assembling scientific articles and translating the text into seven languages. It will be available in English next month (Abrams)". [p.44] I presume that the "Abrams" refers to the English-language publisher. I too would be interested in knowing about any booksellers who will be ordering them in. I haven't done any classical studies since university, but I must admit I'm once again intrigued by the collection. I will probably splurge on a catalogue too!! Frank Packer "It is when the gods hate a man with uncommon abhorrence that they drive him into the profession of a schoolmaster." -- Seneca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:22:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: prayer shawls > This is what I learned about prayer shawls. They generally run about > 45" or longer by wide enough to cover the head for prayers. Size is entirely a matter of personal choice and local tradition (beyond that you should be able to bring it up over your head to shut out the world--and that's something that varies with locality, too). Traditional widths, in different times and places, range from about 14 inches on up. Modern ones probably run about 24-45. > They are > worn only by men. Technically, they are worn by people who have been called to Torah, but in Tevyah's time, this was males 13 and older. > They generally have stripes woven into them. The > width and number of stripes vary and relate to the wearer's heritage. Not in any formal way, although you have local stylistic traditions. > They also generally have fringe and longer fringe at the corners > which is knotted in a variety of ways-also dealing with heritage and > tradition. The fringes (actually more like tassles) at the corners are one of the two absolute positive requirements (the other is that it has 4 corners -- technically a poncho would do as well. There is a negative requirement that wool and linen not be mixed. This is all from a passage in Leviticus and if I can cope I'll try to look it up tonight; presumedly the priests of the biblical era local competing religion wore something that was specifically made of mixed fiber and this was to set the Jews apart. (At least, this is why the prohibition that lead to the meat/milk think was written.) I only know of two styles of knotting--one Ashkanazi (Eastern European) and one Sephardic (Spanish/Med/Asia Minor)-- but there may be more. The knot patterns are full of all kinds of symbolic stuff (10 times round for the Commandments and like that). The other fringing is discressionary. > When the shawl is not in use it is worn folded around the > owners waist between shirt and vest and can be seen hanging out > beneath in research. WRONG! What you see hanging out (and it would have been under the shirt as well) is another 4 cornered, fringed garment which very orthodox men wear to this day. It's worn any time you have clothing on. It's got a name but I'm Reform and it wasn't something I needed to research. When it's not being worn, a Tallis is kept in a bag, usually embroidered as beautifully as possible. (It's a common thing for a bride to make for her groom or a daughter to make for a father.) I've forgotten exactly when one is supposed to wear a Tallis. For morning prayers, and when on the bimah (podium--conducting a service is the closest equivalent) and for certain High Holy Day services. > How I accomplished this was by buying handwoven-looking drapery, > cutting it to length plus fringe, unfringing the ends, knotting it > and then adding stripes copied from research with a permanent magic > marker. I used black, because my research indicated that this was > the prevalent color. Again, the stripe color is regional. (Blue is the most common now--due to the Israeli flag, I assume.) What you did sounds perfectly reasonable for theatrical work; I'd make sure to have the corner fringes on them but NOT knot them correctly. > I feel I achieved a very realistic effect. No > one of the Jewish faith questioned my choice. Sounds like you did a really nice job. However, no one who is Jewish and is going to see Fiddler is going to give you a hard time as long as you fall between very wide parameters. It's considered useful at defusing certain stereotypes, at least by those who don't consider that it sins in creating a different, if more positive, set. As long as Props didin't put a ham on Tevya's table, I wouldn't expect anything but good vibes. ;-) > Any costume designers out there of the Jewish faith who would care to I've been looking into this because I'm considering bat Mitzvah, which get's me called to Torah (which, I suppose, makes it' obvious I'm Jewish), etc. and if so I will, of course, want to make my own. Several of the women at my congregation have lovely shawls with all over embroidery, and there is one that is tie-died! The men tend to be more traditional, but they have a great way of wearing them, which I think is probably Sephardic (at least, it wasn't common in my childhood, in a primarily Ashkanazi community) that involves tossing part of the shawl back over your shoulders somehow; it looks great and I'll choose my size to be able to do it. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 96 12:35:26 EDT From: "Elizabeth A. Proudfit" <74211.2367@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Elenor of Toledo Ther are several paintings of Elenor of Toledo, and in them most of her chemises have a fine black embroidery pattern on the edges. This is more than likely a double running stitch done in a simple geometric pattern, which yes, was influenced by the Moors. It was also usually done in Black, another moorish influence. Double running can be either counted or free hand. If it is free hand it might be slightly coarser than counted, though I have seen some fairly course work done counted when the thread was heavier than the count on the cloth. Catherine of Aragon was supose to have brought blackwork to England, as there is mention of blackwork on her linens. This is mostlikely what you are seeing on Elenor's chemise. When I tried to cross reference blackwork with Spanish costuming of the time, the one reference I ran into said it was a popular English form of Embroidery! No mention of it coming from Spain. At the same time in Germasny there was a great deal of use of Double running in large forms, as seen on the wedding dress of Anna Meyer by Holbein. My opinion is that these two forms of monocromatic embroidery were combined into what we consider as Black work as seen in England where it was a freeform edge filled in with geometric counted diapering. I will now take my soap box and go sit quietly again. libbet Hon.Mistress Elysabet de Warren ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:43:24 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Trojan Gold? > > Check out this week's (April 22nd, 1996) issue of "Time" magazine > and the article "Troy's Lost Treasure". > To quote from it: > "The catalog, says Mikhail Treister, a curator at the > Pushkin, is a 'colossal work' that involved photographing each object, > creating a complete description of it and assembling scientific articles and > translating the text into seven languages. It will be available in English > next month (Abrams)". [p.44] > I presume that the "Abrams" refers to the English-language > publisher. I don't have a current Abrams catalog, nor a '96 BIP. It was not listed in '95 (at least under that title). But Abrams' address is" Abrams. 100 Fifth Ave. New York, NY 10011 R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 22:02:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Allan Terry Subject: Vintage dance class in San Francisco Area VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for April through June is: April 27: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs May 4: 5/4 (half-and-half) waltzes taught by Allan Terry & Frances Grimble May 11: 1920s dance taught by Stan Isaacs May 18: 1920s dance taught by Terry & Grimble May 25: 1920s dance taught by Stan Isaacs June 1: Victorian dance taught by Stan Isaacs June 8: SPECIAL RENAISSANCE DANCE WORKSHOP--Terry & Grimble June 15: Victorian dance June 22: Victorian dance June 29: Victorian dance All dance variations are researched from original sources, some especially for this class. We do our best to always teach fresh and interesting material, and to teach good styling. All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. This is a regular series of weekly classes that will continue in upcoming months. For further information, call Clare Burmeister at 510/524-9111 or send e-mail to clareb@consensus.com or aterry@teknowledge.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:12:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Small Garment Hypothesis On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, Ed Walton wrote: > >It has been my theory that we have all these small surviving > >garments because people ran out of smaller people to make them down for. > > This hypothesis is contradicted, at least in the case of males between the > ages of 16 and 50, by military quartermaster procurement records. Army > records thru WW2 show the vast majority of uniforms were acquired to fit > males with chest no greater than 38 and waist no greater than 32. This size > certainly fits with a 22" female waist. > > Height has also increased with the pork, but I don't remember the averages. > I know little about the military, but wouldn't the majority of the men in it be young and healthy? (i.e. thin.) Not a representation of society as a whole. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Authentic reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 08:55:54 MDT From: mgriggs@shepards.com Subject: Elizabethan Chemise Hello, I am working on my first Elizabethan gown for a wedding in July. I've gotten the corset, bum roll, and farthingale complete. The underskirt is in process and I have the patterns for the sleeves, bodice, overskirt and hat worked out. Where I'm stumped is the chemise. Can anyone tell me what was worn as a chemise under the corsets and farthingale in the early Elizabethan time frame? I have seen references for a square necked chemise worn under the Tudor clothing, but the information I've found for Elizabethan doesn't mention this type of chemise. There is mention of a partlet shirt with a high neck, but that doesn't appear to be what is worn under most of the gowns I've seen. I'm a bit confused by the information I've found so far. Can someone point me in the right direction? If it affects the type of chemise worn, I will not be crafting a large ruff. I'll use a small one at best to avoid over accentuating my round cheeked face. :) Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm about a hundred years and an entire silhouette out of my depth here. Thanks! Lyssa - ----------------------------------------------- Lady Leofsige O Caoimh Dragonsspine, Outlands mgriggs@shepards.com lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:52:31 EDT From: LINDA_CAN@prodigy.com (MS LINDA CANIANO) Subject: medieval clothing - dearth of information I am an adult college student currently studying Arthurian Legend. I am particularly interested in the clothing of the era. Since most legend has very littly in the way of actual description, I would like to find out as much as possible about design, color, and fabric and construction. Can you advise on sources? Thank you for your time. Linda Caniano ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 11:01:21 PDT From: Ches@mail.io.com Subject: FW: garb question If you can help this young lady I would appriciated it. I remember some discussion of this awhile ago but no real conclusion. On Sun, 21 Apr 1996 22:02:01 -0500 (CDT) steffy wrote: >I am interested in making a pair of late period men's tights. I have found >lots of information on construction, &c., but have found nothing as to the >actual material one would use. Any suggestions? > >Thank you! > >Mergriet > > Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #97 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!